Riding your own ride

[carver]

i will say this once

when on a group ride, stick to your limits, do not race the faster guys that make you ride over your head, stick within your abilities, and do not ever run wide tip the bike over further and trust your tires.

this is crucial advice for a group ride

its not worth dying to prove your fast, it does not matter.
i wrote some stuff on the mormon few facebook page too just to clear things up

[NDORFN]

What brought this on?

[Grahameeboy]

So when do you stick to your own advice Carver

[crazyhorse]

Don't ride with the HB Thursday night riders then, we're a bunch of nutters :woohoo:

[one fast tl1ooo]

Don't ride with the HB Thursday night riders then, we're a bunch of nutters :woohoo:

i am with the nutter above :stupid:

[YellowDog]

Well said.

This is why the Laxed out rides are such a good idea.

Youtube is full of idiots trying to impress.

[Kiwi Graham]

Sounds like this has come from the tragedy on the Coro loop ride.
Your right carver, we should all ride within our limits but peer pressure can be a powerful thing.
Group riding is one thing, racing is another!
If you want to race or test yourself you know where it should be done.
I hope you get over the images of today dude.

[Mom]

when on a group ride, stick to your limits, do not race the faster guys that make you ride over your head, stick within your abilities, and do not ever run wide tip the bike over further and trust your tires.

Good advice there for sure. Can I add one little extra? This applies every time you get on your bike, not just on group rides.

[monkeymcbean]

i will say this once

when on a group ride, stick to your limits, do not race the faster guys that make you ride over your head, stick within your abilities, and do not ever run wide tip the bike over further and trust your tires.

this is crucial advice for a group ride

its not worth dying to prove your fast, it does not matter.

i think ive heard this before, but always good to reinforce, and just don't invite the ones that have dodgey riding behaviour back to a ride, or just say something they might not know they are scaring the 'be jesus' out of the other riders.

[smoky]

So when do you stick to your own advice Carver

He does, he did

[Grahameeboy]

He does, he did

I was able to read the pages:yes:

[smoky]

when on a group ride, stick to your limits, do not race the faster guys that make you ride over your head, stick within your abilities, and do not ever run wide tip the bike over further and trust your tires.

this is crucial advice for a group ride

its not worth dying to prove your fast, it does not matter.

I agree whole heartily - but i would also ask;

If you can ride very well, and you're out with riders who do not have the same ability as you, but try to stick with you, you can see they're riding beyond their skill level - do you think you have a responsibility to slow down, rather than encourage them on?


I don't know?

[oldguy]

i will say this once

when on a group ride, stick to your limits, do not race the faster guys that make you ride over your head, stick within your abilities, and do not ever run wide tip the bike over further and trust your tires.

this is crucial advice for a group ride

its not worth dying to prove your fast, it does not matter.

I totally agree, its something that we constantly tell new riders on our regular SATNR.
ride within your own ability

[carver]

I agree whole heartily - but i would also ask;

If you can ride very well, and you're out with riders who do not have the same ability as you, but try to stick with you, you can see they're riding beyond their skill level - do you think you have a responsibility to slow down, rather than encourage them on?


I don't know?

everyone is responsible for their own life and ride.

after what happened today, i just wanted to make it clear, its not worth dying over.
i cant judge how good a rider you are, or your abilities, as i only get a brief partial insight when riding with people for the first time.

[smoky]

Of course I'm not really referring to yesterdays tragedy - you're right, every one is responsible for their own choices

But last year, 3 times, while riding with guys I didn't know very well; I noticed they were running wide, over braking and crap like that, and eventually they came off
I was riding well within my ability - but they were kind of pushing it too far.

I decided that if I am going to invite riders out, or I go with others, I ride to their pace now - up to my ability. Even if it means a slower pace than I am comfortable with

It's a funny thing pride, it pushes too many bikers into calamity.

About 12 months ago I came off - I was keeping up with a bunch of sport bikes on the Coro, I knew my rear shock was stuffed and I should've been taking it easy, but you know - you get caught up in the adrenalin. Next thing you know I'm talking to the tar. Lesson learnt.

[crazyhorse]

I agree whole heartily - but i would also ask;

If you can ride very well, and you're out with riders who do not have the same ability as you, but try to stick with you, you can see they're riding beyond their skill level - do you think you have a responsibility to slow down, rather than encourage them on?


I don't know?

I totally agree - everyone IS responsible for their own life when on a bike, BUT if you are aware that a rider is not capable of keeping up, then maybe you do have a moral obligation to slow down, or talk to them about it. I would hate it to be on my conscience that I could've help prevent something and never chose to do anything about it. But at the end of the day, there really is no right answer to this question.

[NDORFN]

Of course I'm not really referring to yesterdays tragedy - you're right, every one is responsible for their own choices

But last year, 3 times, while riding with guys I didn't know very well; I noticed they were running wide, over braking and crap like that, and eventually they came off
I was riding well within my ability - but they were kind of pushing it too far.

I decided that if I am going to invite riders out, or I go with others, I ride to their pace now - up to my ability. Even if it means a slower pace than I am comfortable with

It's a funny thing pride, it pushes too many bikers into calamity.

About 12 months ago I came off - I was keeping up with a bunch of sport bikes on the Coro, I knew my rear shock was stuffed and I should've been taking it easy, but you know - you get caught up in the adrenalin. Next thing you know I'm talking to the tar. Lesson learnt.

I totally agree. When we ride with a less experienced rider, we ride closely to thier pace (or atleast one of us hangs back to keep them company and to stop them from giving into the urge to try to keep up with the lead bike), only pushing them very little more each time they come out. If we didn't want to go slower, we wouldn't invite them in the first place. Maybe designating one of the faster riders or taking turns to hang back and show the inexperienced or slower riders some good riding skills and habbits could work.

[DMNTD]

...if you are aware that a rider is not capable of keeping up, then maybe you do have a moral obligation to slow down, or talk to them about it...

Agreed with the "stopping and having a chat" option.

[DEATH_INC.]

Let me just say at this point I don't believe this was the case yesterday. :done:

[carver]

I totally agree. When we ride with a less experienced rider, we ride closely to thier pace (or atleast one of us hangs back to keep them company and to stop them from giving into the urge to try to keep up with the lead bike), only pushing them very little more each time they come out. If we didn't want to go slower, we wouldn't invite them in the first place. Maybe designating one of the faster riders or taking turns to hang back and show the inexperienced or slower riders some good riding skills and habbits could work.

while thats a good idea, if you do not know the person, and in your eyes, they seem to be doing ok, you would assume all is well.

[Maha]

I decided that if I am going to invite riders out, or I go with others, I ride to their pace now - up to my ability. Even if it means a slower pace than I am comfortable with

It's a funny thing pride, it pushes too many bikers into calamity.




Theres the probable answer, I know of one who opted out of going yesterday beacasue of the 'ego' being thrown around online. A couple of years ago, I had a ride organised and, one member said ''I aint coming if its not a race'' so I responded '' well there one who wont be coming''. May have been tounge n' cheek but, there is an eliment of ego in that comment.

The one and only time I have been on a Coro ride there were two bins, one was a young fulla, on a 2 smoker, first ever group ride, dont think hes ever been back online.

[carver]

Theres the probable answer, I know of one who opted out of going yesterday beacasue of the 'ego' being thrown around online. A couple of years ago, I had a ride organised and, one member said ''I aint coming if its not a race'' so I responded '' well there one who wont be coming''. May have been tounge n' cheek but, there is an eliment of ego in that comment.

The one and only time I have been on a Coro ride there were two bins, one was a young fulla, on a 2 smoker, first ever group ride, dont think hes ever been back online.

i went once, and it was a bit wet, so i pulled over to put some gears on to keep my dry.
a dude on a RS250 going the other way put it into a ditch, so i rode it out for him, i think i was on the ER6, or maybe the motard.
it was not fast yesterday

[smoky]

Let me just say at this point I don't believe this was the case yesterday. :done:

Was trying to stay away from that comparison - I rode with him earlier in the day, and he didn't seem to be inexperienced or unable to ride.

And to some degree in a big group like that I agree with Carver; there's so many different riding abilities and people you don't know, you can only take responsibility for your own riding. There will always be a few who want to impress others - and there was a few of them yesterday, as there always are in a group that size, but I don't think he was one of them

[Maha]

i went once, and it was a bit wet, so i pulled over to put some gears on to keep my dry.
a dude on a RS250 going the other way put it into a ditch, so i rode it out for him, i think i was on the ER6, or maybe the motard.
it was not fast yesterday

I am not judging yesterdays ride, hell even on my rides I am almost the last one into town, I dont care, I am out there for ME! :2thumbsup
Knowing your comfort zone is paramount and individuals should know exactly where that line ends.

[carver]

I am not judging yesterdays ride, hell even on my rides I am almost the last one into town, I dont care, I am out there for ME! :2thumbsup
Knowing your comfort zone is paramount and individuals should know exactly where that line ends.

correct.....

[Grahameeboy]

i went once, and it was a bit wet, so i pulled over to put some gears on to keep my dry.
a dude on a RS250 going the other way put it into a ditch, so i rode it out for him, i think i was on the ER6, or maybe the motard.
it was not fast yesterday

Did you give him the bike back??

[Grahameeboy]

Theres the probable answer, I know of one who opted out of going yesterday beacasue of the 'ego' being thrown around online. A couple of years ago, I had a ride organised and, one member said ''I aint coming if its not a race'' so I responded '' well there one who wont be coming''. May have been tounge n' cheek but, there is an eliment of ego in that comment.

The one and only time I have been on a Coro ride there were two bins, one was a young fulla, on a 2 smoker, first ever group ride, dont think hes ever been back online.

That Mom she is a rebel eh...............

[mowgli]

stick within your abilities, and do not ever run wide tip the bike over further and trust your tires.

While I agree with the sentiment, this is almost impossible for an inexperienced rider to achieve. Twist of the Wrist by Keith Code should be compulsory reading for beginners.

[FJRider]

Quite a few of "group rides" I've been a part of, was where riders seemed to want to ride a few metres apart. As a result of this, there has been a number of incidents where the following bikes have run into the rear of the bike(s) in front. Nothing to do with riding outside skill levels. Just not thinking further ahead than what you can see.
I travel a lot in my work, and I often see groups of bikes travelling together. Often ...more often than not, literally a few metres apart. At speed.
The key thought is ... do you trust that rider behind you, to not run into the back of you ???

[NDORFN]

while thats a good idea, if you do not know the person, and in your eyes, they seem to be doing ok, you would assume all is well.

For sure. At the end of the day you can only take so much responsibility for an inexperienced riders' actions. I suppose the best you can do when you have someone on your tail who shows no obvious signs of inexperience is just to ride well, keeping it smooth, exercising patience when required, the kind of riding that'll keep YOU alive, and if they come off atleast you know you are in no way to blame. And on the same token of not knowing the person following, you should never race someone you don't know, for your own safety, as odds on it'll be you they crash into the rear or side of.

[Mom]

The key thought is ... do you trust that rider behind you, to not run into the back of you ???

A couple of years ago we were on a group ride where the majority of the riders were simply following in one anothers wheel tracks, like a big snake. When we stopped at our first regroup point the TEC hauled up and gave the lot of them a chat about safe following in group situations. Probably had never occured to any of them that it was dangerous and limited their ability to avoid a situation should it arise. Good lesson learned for them.

[idleidolidyll]

the thread statement is generally correct but;

i don't believe the unfortunate rider was racing; i reckon he was doing well under the speed limit and either the road condition or a mistake was to blame (there was a little gravel where he fell).

my deep felt condolences to his family and friends

[carver]

Did you give him the bike back??

i wanted to keep it, but he was beside me.

[Little Miss Trouble]

I agree whole heartily - but i would also ask;

If you can ride very well, and you're out with riders who do not have the same ability as you, but try to stick with you, you can see they're riding beyond their skill level - do you think you have a responsibility to slow down, rather than encourage them on?


I don't know?

My feeling on that is that it depends a lot on how the ride was advertised - if its a cruisey 250 type ride then yes you do have the moral obligation as a more experienced rider to tone it down or not turn up in the first place. A ride like the coro loop however is usually going to be a much faster paced ride, if you notice someone pushing it beyond their ability a 'calm down or piss off' chat should suffice

[Grahameeboy]

i wanted to keep it, but he was beside me.

But I thought you Mormons believed in bikeligamy.....

[carver]

But I thought you Mormons believed in bikeligamy.....

but we do not believe in theft!

[Grahameeboy]

but we do not believe in theft!

Theft has many guises...........

[FJRider]

Theft has many guises...........

Theft is an ugly word ... I much prefer "borrow" ... for a while.

[scumdog]

everyone is responsible for their own life and ride.

after what happened today, i just wanted to make it clear, its not worth dying over.
i cant judge how good a rider you are, or your abilities, as i only get a brief partial insight when riding with people for the first time.

Maybe the rider that binned had read a few of your posts and was out to emulate you??? who knows.....:shutup:


But older/more experienced riders DO influence n00bs, both by their riding style and their words, often to the detriment of said n00b. :pinch::yes:

[hayd3n]

the last(also my first huge group ride) in chch itwas well organized ,they had the fast riders go first, then not so fast second ,and the still not so fast group last.
it broke the groups down into smaller groups and we stuck to out abilities.
i had no idea where i was goin . so i just sat in the not so fast second groups
had a ball and no one crashed !@,
we went over the port hills and stopped for a coffee/beer/feed at some dead end (nice) pub.
and strangers wouldn't criticize they would give out tips:2thumbsup and try to improve your riding ability:2thumbsup

[FJRider]

But older/more experienced riders DO influence n00bs, both by their riding style and their words, often to the detriment of said n00b. :pinch::yes:

But no matter how good a rider you are, there will always be some that are better. Knowing the warning signs when trying to follow another rider helps. Ignoring those signs will cause pain ... Eventually.

[Ragingrob]

Yep ride your own ride.

Especially on the road! Yesterday I was on roads I'd never been on before, who cares, I just enjoyed the scenery and took it easy, knowing that at the turn-offs the others may have to wait a max of like 2 minutes for me.

When I'm on roads I know or with smaller bikes I'm absolutely fine having 2min stops while they catch up.

If you're feeling any pressure to push yourself, you're with the wrong crowd I reckon. Well if they are gonna judge you for it.

Everyone's out there for a good time individually, and everyone's individual 'good time' differs. Ride your own ride and have a good laugh at the pub afterwards!

[Maha]

the last(also my first huge group ride) in chch itwas well organized ,they had the fast riders go first, then not so fast second ,and the still not so fast group last.
it broke the groups down into smaller groups and we stuck to out abilities.
i had no idea where i was goin . so i just sat in the not so fast second groups
had a ball and no one crashed !@,
we went over the port hills and stopped for a coffee/beer/feed at some dead end (nice) pub.
and strangers wouldn't criticize they would give out tips:2thumbsup and try to improve your riding ability:2thumbsup

Theres no reason why that senario couldn't happen on every group ride.
A ride briefing centred on capabilities.
Anyone should feel at ease on any group ride, if not, then they shouldn't be there.
But those that post group rides expect that those who turn up will take the adult and mature stance for the day, and for themselves.
Not one person is soley responsible for any action taken by another at any time (unless others are put at risk by that action) then something could be said, and thats all will take hopefully.

[beyond]

Some good points made in this thread.
On group rides you need rules of some sort. The last one I organised earlier last year turned into a biggie so I made this thread to ensure everyone knows what is expected:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/calendar.php?do=getinfo&ea=attend&e=1598

A good 80 riders actually turned up for this run.

Feel free to copy the information for any rides you organise, if it means a safe one.

The final call is: everyone is responsible for their own behaviour which includes the way you ride. (Always ride within your own abilities) Unless someone else actually causes an incident then the fault will always be on the riders shoulders and no one else can be held responsible.

Condolences to family and friends and to those who had to witness such an event.

:( :( :( :(

[Grahameeboy]

Maybe the rider that binned had read a few of your posts and was out to emulate you??? who knows.....:shutup:


But older/more experienced riders DO influence n00bs, both by their riding style and their words, often to the detriment of said n00b. :pinch::yes:

Sacre Bleu......non a amie...zis not possibal.....

[Crazy Steve]

Gutted....:(

And I feel really sick......Been watching the accident in my head over and over again.....I wish I never saw it.....

Crazy Steve..

[wysper]

While I agree with the sentiment, this is almost impossible for an inexperienced rider to achieve. Twist of the Wrist by Keith Code should be compulsory reading for beginners.

This is a good point. I have been riding for over twenty years and still have trouble trusting my bike and tyres. I KNOW they can handle way more than what I am asking of them. But I still lack the faith/skill to push my envelope.

I have just reserved that book from the library mowgli. I am making a point of trying to upskill myself. Not to go faster, but to know that I can if I want to or need to. Or hopefully be able to cope with that 'moment' that really tests you.

[skidMark]

I agree whole heartily - but i would also ask;

If you can ride very well, and you're out with riders who do not have the same ability as you, but try to stick with you, you can see they're riding beyond their skill level - do you think you have a responsibility to slow down, rather than encourage them on?


I don't know?

nah i just fuckoff round some corners and they have nobody to chase...

just make it look like you almost lost it entering the corner and they n00b through it. meanwhile you piss off lol

[Katman]

meanwhile you piss off lol

We wish.<hgvhgvhjv>

[Mom]

This is a good point. I have been riding for over twenty years and still have trouble trusting my bike and tyres. I KNOW they can handle way more than what I am asking of them. But I still lack the faith/skill to push my envelope.

I have just reserved that book from the library mowgli. I am making a point of trying to upskill myself. Not to go faster, but to know that I can if I want to or need to. Or hopefully be able to cope with that 'moment' that really tests you.

What surprises me sometimes is when you actually have one of those oh shit moments on the road, some sort of ingrained, subconcious, reflex/knowledge kicks in and you find yourself through the moment before you have time to actually think about what you actually did to save a certain off. It is only afterwards that you get the chance to sit down and analyse it bit by bit.

Skills get built on, ride after ride, and as the old adage goes, practice makes perfect! Learning these skills happens everytime you take your bike out of the garage.

I am really impressed with the number of opportunities that are available on here for people to actually go and really practise their skills, and more than impressed with the newbies and not so newbies that actually take advantage of these opportunities.

[carver]

Gutted....:(

And I feel really sick......Been watching the accident in my head over and over again.....I wish I never saw it.....

Crazy Steve..

i feel for ya steve, many others feel the same way

[Lula]

Gutted....:(

And I feel really sick......Been watching the accident in my head over and over again.....I wish I never saw it.....

Crazy Steve..

You're not alone there, I too am having regular flash backs.

[Kiwi Graham]

Gutted....:(

And I feel really sick......Been watching the accident in my head over and over again.....I wish I never saw it.....

Crazy Steve..


i feel for ya steve, many others feel the same way


You're not alone there, I too am having regular flash backs.

I feel for you guys/gals, this is a horrendous thing to have to relive in your minds eye. I suggest if you can get together and support each other, alot will be gained. Its not good to deal with this on your own, a few beers together and sharing your thoughts will help in coming to terms with what you've been through.

KG

[Danae]

Condolensces to the family of the biker who crashed; I wasn't there so I've no idea what happened but won't ask.

With respect to the thread, I'm an absolute noob and although the ride to Kaiaua was great, I still went about 30k through the twisties. At the moment that is my limit, ha

Moar practise is needed

[Squiggles]

It is worth considering online persona and the influence your posts have on others, newbies in particular. Too many feel a good rider is a fast one (as an example).

[Maha]

It might be worth considering online persona and the influence your posts have on others, newbies in particular. Too many feel a good rider is a fast one.

Im a good rider not a fast rider, dont intend to be, dont pretend to be. The top three inches controll everything you do, including the rear times when you just........ fuck it up.



On the first sentence....Yes!

[Ixion]

I ain't a good rider or a fast rider. I accept that and just concentrate on not falling off. Or hitting things. Simplifies matters no end

[carver]

It is worth considering online persona and the influence your posts have on others, newbies in particular. Too many feel a good rider is a fast one (as an example).


I ain't a good rider or a fast rider. I accept that and just concentrate on not falling off. Or hitting things. Simplifies matters no end

i would consider myself to be a skilled rider, and a fast one.
i rarely feel panicked or stressed when riding, i just relax and ride by feel and consistency.
but i will never be a safety nazi, a holier than thou, you all take responsiblity for yourselves, and you should all be able to think for yourselves.

[PrincessBandit]

A lot of people seem to have fingers which work a keyboard at a much faster rate than their brain obviously works.

Unfortunately they also promote the "if you ain't having 'fun' and pushing your limits all the time why are you on a bike ya pussy" mentality. This is not a good place for impressionable and easily led noobs. (Originally I posted "easily led young 'uns" but it isn't always only the young who fall into this category).

p.s. sheer coincidence my post is after Carver's, it was not written after reading his.

[scumdog]

Not wishing to sound calous BUT do none of you ever think when heading out on the road that one day one of you won't come back, that you may come across a messy crash, that it may be somebody you know?

I know I do, it's part of Real Life(tm)

[carver]

Not wishing to sound calous BUT do none of you ever think when heading out on the road that one day one of you won't come back, that you may come across a messy crash, that it may be somebody you know?

I know I do, it's part of Real Life(tm)

oh yeah, but who gives a fuck, thats life, thats the chance that you/they take.
you just happen to be there at the time

[howdamnhard]

Agreed with the "stopping and having a chat" option.
Been there and done that and it worked out well.But you have to be fortunate enough to actually see them struggling. Not so easy if they are behind you and you are concentrating on the road in front of you.

[Ixion]

Every time. And the somebody I know best is me. Every time I start up I wait for Death (no, not Andy, the bony one) to climb on behind.

Thing is, bikers who accept they're going to die, often don't. Those who are certain they won't , often do.

[Katman]

I've said it before and I'll say it again........

Sites like this have a lot to answer for. It is far too easy for like minded fuckheads to organise a ride that is destined for sadness.

[carver]

I've said it before and I'll say it again........

Sites like this have a lot to answer for. It is far too easy for like minded fuckheads to organise a ride that is destined for sadness.

i dont think the organizers have anything to answer for.
a briefing would have been a good idea, but we cant make people ride a certain way, they have to choose.

[Squiggles]

i dont think the organizers have anything to answer for.
a briefing would have been a good idea, but we cant make people ride a certain way, they have to choose.

Read between the lines, rather than the literal meaning of our posts...

[DEATH_INC.]

I've said it before and I'll say it again........

Sites like this have a lot to answer for. It is far too easy for like minded fuckheads to organise a ride that is destined for sadness.
YOU have no idea what happened. Fuck off.

[Ixion]

Am I my brother's keeper ?

[Katman]

i dont think the organizers have anything to answer for.
a briefing would have been a good idea, but we cant make people ride a certain way, they have to choose.

Maybe the 'organizers' need to think about what it is they're organizing.

[carver]

Read between the lines, rather than the literal meaning of our posts...

yeah, it can/could/has happen, but not on saturday.

once again

everyone chooses

[Katman]

Am I my brother's keeper ?

Cain was not a good role model.

[carver]

Maybe the 'organizers' need to think about what it is they're organizing.

rules for any MFSC ride are No Rules
your expected to look after yourself, as you know best.

[Ixion]

Maybe the 'organizers' need to think about what it is they're organizing.

A valid point if a ride is posted up as "learner friendly" or "newbie" or such like. But when its posted up as "Fast blast by experienced riders, other such welcome to join", the I don't think any imputation can be made. Those whpo join in must make their own call: either "keep up" (and all that entails) , or accept being the "arrives at the pub as everyone else is finishing their lunch". Like me. No harm done, if you're slow enough, the kitchen has finished all the fast riders' orders and you don't have to wait.

Sometimes, shit just happens. Things can be overanalyzed.

[Katman]

A valid point if a ride is posted up as "learner friendly" or "newbie" or such like. But when its posted up as "Fast blast by experienced riders, other such welcome to join", the I don't think any imputation can be made. Those whpo join in must make their own call: either "keep up" (and all that entails) , or accept being the "arrives at the pub as everyone else is finishing their lunch". Like me. No harm done, if you're slow enough, the kitchen has finished all the fast riders' orders and you don't have to wait.

Sometimes, shit just happens. Things can be overanalyzed.

The whole "if you try to keep up but don't have the skills to do so, it's no problem of mine" concept is a sad indictment on our current society.

[U1AGO]

I have been ridding for some time now and have attended many training days, however still consider my self new and inexperienced. I don’t post much. This said with the group ride on Saturday, Death did a good job with organizing the ride. I feel that a fantastic day was had by all until the incident. If Organizers are going to be dragged over the hot coils when the unfortunate happens, I think we would have less and less organized rides to go on.

With regard to new rides telling them to ride with in there limits, I think the next sentence told to them should be the limit is not a target. I personally only ride to 60% or 70% of that limit as if your at the limit there is little to no room for error.

Ps nice to have met you carver hope next time we can talk more.

My thoughts and condolence go out the family and friends of the fallen.

[Ixion]

But what are you supposed to do ?

If I am going out on a ride and I say "anyone want to come along - not a race just take your own time", and X says "Oh yes, I'll tag along, I'm an experienced rider, i'll just ride my own pace", then what an I supposed to do?

In reality if I were in that situation, and I saw that X was *obviously* having problems I'd slow down. I think almost everyone here would. But often it doesn't work that way. X may go through 20 corners looking OK (bearing in mind that this is not a *fast* ride, cos I am not a fast rider, so X has no problem "keeping up": and for all I know X is a hell of a lot better rider than me - that's not hard ) . Then , on the 21st corner X stuffs it up (for whatever reason) and ends up in the ditch . By the time I see him heading ditchward, it's too late for me to influence events.

I tend to brake late or not at all in corners. On some group rides people have commented that they've found it a bit difficult following me because of that . So now I *try* to not have anyone close behind me - I pull over and wave them through. But sometimes it's not possible , for lots of reasons. So if I am pootling gently into a corner , and someone is behind me, and ends up on the wrong side of the road , and in the ditch (cos he was expecting me to brake) , is that my fault?

[PrincessBandit]

Organisers cannot dictate how every single rider will behave. With a large ride though is there not some degree of leadership or is it a potluck free-for-all? I was not aware of "labeling" of excursions as being 'noob friendly' or 'balls out speed fests'. Maybe there should be a clearer explanation beforehand so that people know what they're getting themselves into if they haven't been previously involved.

If I were to turn up and discover that I didn't "fit in" because everyone else wanted to "race" then I would take responsibility myself for hanging behind and just pootling along, even if it was on my lonesome. It would be nice though if there was some kindhearted rider who might shepherd me, although my suspicion is that I'm more likely to be told htfu or piss off. Hope not!

[Ixion]

No. I do indeed when learners or newbies are involved. Which is why I say it makes a difference if a ride is posted as suitable for them

But otherwise, if X is (purportedly) an experienced rider, I think I am entitled to assume that he is just that. And since I am , by universal agreement, the slowest rider on the road, if *I* can manage to get through a section of road, then any other experienced (ie full license) rider whould have no problem.

You can't live other people's lives for them.

Newbie, learner, that's quite another matter. With them, I ride by my rear view mirror. Full license holder (or purporting to be such), I expect them to be able to ride their own ride. Which will almost certainly be a lot faster than mine.

I think the same logic reasonably applies to those organising rides.

[Katman]

The stone cold reality is though, it should never be a 'race' - regardless of the situation or the skill level of the participants.

[Ixion]

Organisers cannot dictate how every single rider will behave. With a large ride though is there not some degree of leadership or is it a potluck free-for-all? I was not aware of "labeling" of excursions as being 'noob friendly' or 'balls out speed fests'. Maybe there should be a clearer explanation beforehand so that people know what they're getting themselves into if they haven't been previously involved.

If I were to turn up and discover that I didn't "fit in" because everyone else wanted to "race" then I would take responsibility myself for hanging behind and just pootling along, even if it was on my lonesome. It would be nice though if there was some kindhearted rider who might shepherd me, although my suspicion is that I'm more likely to be told htfu or piss off. Hope not!

Most Auckland rides are specified as "learner friendly" or "moderate pace" or "fast" or such like. Or, the nature of the ride may be deduced from the name - "Coro GP" is unlikely to be sedate.

I've more than once gone along to a ride, decided after a bit that it was too fast for me, and gone off on my own. (After advising the ride organiser or someone such that I was doing so of course) .

[Ixion]

The stone cold reality is though, it should never be a 'race' - regardless of the situation or the skill level of the participants.


Sometimes, it is (often, the uncharitable might say). That's why I don't go on those rides. If I go on one, and it turns out to be a race, I just pootle off in another direction. Every rider must make his or her own decisions about that. And of course, one makes ones decision to go on a ride or not based to quite a degree on who is organising it and who else is going. I have many times thought "Hm, could be a good ride. but if X Y and Z are going along, the pace will be too fast for me, I'll flag it by" . If experienced riders are unwilling to make that judgement , and yet unable to "keep up" and yet determined to do so, on their own heads be it. You can only go so far to protect people fporm themselves.

[PrincessBandit]

Most Auckland rides are specified as "learner friendly" or "moderate pace" or "fast" or such like. Or, the nature of the ride may be deduced from the name - "Coro GP" is unlikely to be sedate.

I've more than once gone along to a ride, decided after a bit that it was too fast for me, and gone off on my own. (After advising the ride organiser or someone such that I was doing so of course) .

Hmmm, Coro GP (assuming that is nothing to do with doctors....) sounds suspiciously "race like" to me :whistle:

Good to hear an experienced person like yourself stating that pulling out of a ride if you're uncomfortable is perfectly acceptable. (And remembering to advise someone - very important). Thank you.

[Laxi]

no katman, id say realism

[smoky]

I've said it before and I'll say it again........
Sites like this have a lot to answer for. It is far too easy for like minded fuckheads to organise a ride that is destined for sadness.
It's called a free country

Maybe the 'organizers' need to think about what it is they're organizing.

You have to be joking - do you really take this shit seriously? It's not a club, there's no membership subs, no ones checking everyones suitability for membership, someone posts up a ride, anyone comes along - you don't have the ability to orgainise their safety, or guarantee routes are safe, or there won't be any 'acts of God' along the way
It's just a chat forum
A few of you have stuck that stupid green ME next to your name and things have gone to your head


Truth is, I just don't think you give a fuck.

Who are you to make a judgement like that?


The stone cold reality is though, it should never be a 'race' - regardless of the situation or the skill level of the participants.

And who said it was a race? I was on the ride, I didn't get any impression people were racing, or encouraged to race. Yes there were the usual riders riding too hard, and being a bit silly (not referring to the person in the accident) but you'll always get that going on, no matter how much you plan or organise. I know two people who have died this year on very organised rides with proper clubs
You know shit about what happened or what led up to it.

It started as a nice day with a good bunch of bike riders chatting and talking bikes and shyte, having a good ride on some beautiful roads, doing their own thing and meeting up again for lunch, then making their own way home.

[idleidolidyll]

AS one of the few who saw the accident happen, I'd like to put a lid on this bullshit now!

The rider who crashed was NOT racing, nor was he even going fast. He was one of the more sedate riders and I believe his skill level was at least average. When he crashed he was by himself with a few of us coming up behind; it was an accident and NOT due to any outrageous behaviour. There was a little gravel on the road, that may have been the reason.

If you want to talk about group ride accidents or racing on the road, don't use this example because you are clutching at straws and quite wrong. It's insulting and disrespectful.

[Morcs]

It comes down purely to ego. Its very hard to go a slower and safer pace, even if you could quite comfortably go faster. its having the restraint not to nail it after the squid whos barrelled past you on a straight, ignore him, hes just a squid.

I for one, No longer ride fast. Ill quite happily let the other guy think hes 'more skilled' than me as he rides faster. I still do have trouble though not giving out the learn when the push their big ego around saying how awesome they are. Im working on it though.

[idleidolidyll]

Having ridden bikes for almost 40 years now and as an ex racer and group rider, here's my comment and opinion:

Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.

For the most part, judgements on the riskyness of any move by another rider must be taken with a grain of salt.
The only one really who knows for sure whether a move can be made is the rider themselves as they know their own bike, suspension, brakes, power, reflexes, and ability and are usually the closest to the gap, stop point, corner etc.

It is easy to judge incorrectly what they could or couldn't do from a distance but, with modern bikes having 0-100kph times of under 3 seconds, the speed at which a bike can get through a gap is phenomenal. Nobody further than 15 metres or so behind can really judge whether there was room or not as they did not have posession of all the variables as above; they are just judging from their own often inadequate abilites, reaction times, poorly suspended, ill handling, low power bikes etc etc

The difference between a really good rider and an average rider is huge. What looks extremely risky to an average rider may only be 8/10ths for the very good rider.

This thread has become one of opinion not fact. It is a thread where some are making calls from ignorance rather than fact. You may say "in my opinion....." or "from my experience....." but unless you are Valentino Rossi etc; you are quite likely to be leaping to conclusions that are often ill conceived or based on your own mediocre skill, personal baggage or paranoia.

[aff-man]

You're not alone there, I too am having regular flash backs.

ditto


Having ridden bikes for almost 40 years now and as an ex racer and group rider, here's my comment and opinion:

Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.

For the most part, judgements on the riskyness of any move by another rider must be taken with a grain of salt.
The only one really who knows for sure whether a move can be made is the rider themselves as they know their own bike, suspension, brakes, power, reflexes, and ability and are usually the closest to the gap, stop pont, corner etc.

It is easy to judge incorrectly from a distance but with modern bikes having 0-100kph times of under 3 seconds; the speed at which a bike can get through a gap is phenomenal. Nobody further than 15 metres or so behind can really judge whether there was room or not as they did not have posession of all the variables as above; they are just judging from their often inadequate abilites, reaction times, poorly suspended, ill handling, low power bikes etc etc

The difference between a really good rider and an average rider is huge. What looks extremely risky to an average rider may only be 8/10ths for the very good rider.

This thread has become one of opinion not fact. It is a thread where some are making calls from ignorance rather than fact. You may say "in my opinion....." or "from my experience....." but unless you are Valentino Rossi etc; you are quite likely to be leaping to conclusions that are often ill conceived or based on your own mediocre skill, personal baggage or paranoia.

:2thumbsup Agreed.
For my 2c

Whether you're racing at the track, going on a group ride or hell even taking a dump... you are responsible for your own actions. Trying to pass the buck to faster or slower riders is like pointing a finger when you fart in an elevator. Everybody knows it's your fault and you look like a muppet for trying to shift the blame.

There is fast and there is dangerous..

I'm not the slowest cow in the paddock but am nowhere near the fastest.
And sure getting overtaken by a motard does get the blood pumping and hell I could go from riding 70% to 90% and probably keep up but realising that cuts my error margin down significantly and not pushing it has probably increased my safety exponentially. And no I'm not saying I havn't pushed the envelope because we all do but as that limit becomes higher and higher I tend to try and hit it less.

that being said.....shit happens. Some things can't be accounted for and shouldn't be over-analysed

[duckonin]

Gutted....:(

And I feel really sick......Been watching the accident in my head over and over again.....I wish I never saw it.....

Crazy Steve..

Know how you feel CS, try to move on, when a bad thought enters the mind get rid of , think of nice things only..stay in control...

[smoky]

And sure getting overtaken by a motard does get the blood pumping
Especially when he has only half the cubes and hasn't even got road tyres on!

[smoky]

This thread has become one of opinion not fact. It is a thread where some are making calls from ignorance rather than fact.
Couldn't agree more - it's unfortunate why the thread was started, but lets try to discuss the issue of personal responsibility and collective responsibility with some respect for what happened, and leave the ignorant conjecture alone for now


Having ridden bikes for almost 40 years now and as an ex racer and group rider .....

The only one really who knows for sure whether a move can be made is the rider themselves ......

It is easy to judge incorrectly from a distance ...... Nobody further than 15 metres or so behind can really judge whether there was room or not as they did not have posession of all the variables as above;

The difference between a really good rider and an average rider is huge. What looks extremely risky to an average rider may only be 8/10ths for the very good rider.

What your saying is all good, but; (and these are genuine questions)

If you go for a ride and happen across a few others on their bikes, or even people driving a car - you're right
But when you choose to join up on a group ride - does your responsibility shift just a little - to more of a collective responsibility?

I'm not suggesting we're responsible for others actions, but is there an obligation to adjust to tone it down more in a group?

Two riders going at the same pace, one has the ability to ride like that, the other is way over their ability levels, one is riding responsibly, the other is riding irresponsibly, but they are at the same pace, taking the same corners, taking the same gaps.

If the responsible rider was not riding at that pace, chances are the irresponsible rider wouldn't be either. Would that be a fair statement?

I'm talking for group rides only, other time we should consider who we ride with, or leave our faster riding for when we are alone or with friends we know well enough???

That's how I'm thinking anyway

[Ragingrob]

Straight outta Marketing 303:

Outcomes of being in a group:
•Social Loafing
–Less effort exerted by the individual when in a group, due to deindividuation, and diffusion of responsibility.

•Risky shift
–Groups show willingness to be more risky than individuals

•Decision polarization
–Group decisions tend to polarize towards the side that was originally favoured by members.

•Mob behaviour
–Saliency of norms in unfamiliar situation
–Deindividuation

[smoky]

Straight outta Marketing 303:

Outcomes of being in a group:
•Social Loafing
–Less effort exerted by the individual when in a group, due to deindividuation, and diffusion of responsibility.

•Risky shift
–Groups show willingness to be more risky than individuals

•Decision polarization
–Group decisions tend to polarize towards the side that was originally favoured by members.

•Mob behaviour
–Saliency of norms in unfamiliar situation
–Deindividuation
So what are you saying?

[Ragingrob]

So what are you saying?

That in group rides people tend to become less risk averse than if they riding alone, there is less regard of the norms (less respect of the law), and an individual's responsibility is diluted throughout the group.

So as the thread topic is, it is important to try to close your mind to these things when in a group, and ride your own ride.

[idleidolidyll]

Fair questions and I'll give my honest opinion:

If you go for a ride and happen across a few others on their bikes, or even people driving a car - you're right
But when you choose to join up on a group ride - does your responsibility shift just a little - to more of a collective responsibility?

Your respnsibility is always to make sure that when you overtake, you give plenty of warning and room. Your responsibility is to make sure you do not directly place another rider in danger.
It is not your responsibility to ride at any slower pace just because you are on a group ride.
I ride a very loud bike and people know when I'm there. I usually run up a bit close a few times to let them know I'm likley to overtake and then I overtake on the outside going quite wide and making sure they have room.
No point telling me to overtake on the straights only as I ride a 60HP bike and it's physically impossible most of the time when amongst sport bikes.

I'm not suggesting we're responsible for others actions, but is there an obligation to adjust to tone it down more in a group?

No, I don't believe there is. However, it is a damn good idea for the organiser or someone who is a good speaker to make it clear at the start that there are many levels of skill and nobody should ride beyond their comfort zone just to keep up or to prove something.

Two riders going at the same pace, one has the ability to ride like that, the other is way over their ability levels, one is riding responsibly, the other is riding irresponsibly, but they are at the same pace, taking the same corners, taking the same gaps.

Personal responsibility. The rider within his skill and reaction levels does not have a responsibility for the other rider. If that were the case we would always ride at 50kph when with learners etc.
Ditto for the old "ride to the conditions" thing. On NZ roads the use of pea gravel the same colour as the road itself means that you never really know when you might have a moment. Anyone who's ridden a while will tell you that regardless of speed, you can crash on that stuff at any time.
If we therefore extend the definition of "ride to the conditions" to the reality of our terrible road maintenance crews standard of workmanship; we'd all be riding at 50kph or less everywhere regardless of the posted speed limit.

If the responsible rider was not riding at that pace, chances are the irresponsible rider wouldn't be either. Would that be a fair statement?

No, the other rider might be deliberately looking to follow fast riders to push their limits. Even by themselves they might be pushing the limit of their ability.
Part of the reality of a group ride is to follow the faster riders and learn their lines, braking technique etc. Again, the responsibility is always on the rider themself.

I'm talking for group rides only, other time we should consider who we ride with, or leave our faster riding for when we are alone or with friends we know well enough???

It is a good idea to ride 'fast' only when you are fairly sure you won't cause an accident to others due to mixed skill levels.
However, on almost every ride I've been on, the skill levels of the riders are sorted out quickly by the distance between them.
BTW: i hate that word 'fast'. Often fast does not mean exceeding the speed limit, it may mean relative to other riders or to the speed at which others take the same corner etc. I prefer "quick" or "quickly".

I bought the single cylinder motard to go fast slowly, I'm not at all interested in trying to break the double ton etc. My bike is not fast but it can be quick.

[Katman]

People need to ask themselves - "Do I care whether everyone gets home safely from a ride that I have been part of"?

If the answer is "no, I don't care" then I'd suggest that person needs to take a good hard look at their morals.

If the answer is "yes" than the person should next ask themselves "am I prepared to do what I can to try to ensure that everyone gets home safely".

It then becomes a question of what you're prepared to do.

[idleidolidyll]

That's bullshit Katman.

Trying to lay a guilt trip based on your own beliefs is a fallacy argument.
In any school of rhetoric, that would be labelled as the argument of the uninformed or a cowards argument: someone who has no definitive basis for argument and who has run out of facts looking to end it based on playing silly word games.

You've just lost all my respect.

We are all responsible for our own actions. Do you rant on at TV4 for screening Top Gear?

[idleidolidyll]

To be specific Katman, you have committed the following fallacy arguments:

Appeal to Emotions: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/emotiona.html
Poisoning the Well: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/poiswell.html
Begging the Question: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/qbanalog.html

your fallacy argument also falls short in many more ways but this is enough to point out the complete idiocy of the attempt to end the argument based on the false argument you just posted.

In short, the fact that I may ride quickly on a group ride does not mean that I do not care for the welfare of the other riders.

[mozzee]

I didn't really want to get involved in this thread...I think Carver started it for the right reasons...

I was there on Saturday, so I thought I would add my 2 cents worth...

I think every rider is responsible for their own actions. No one on Saturday was responsible for what happened. Accidents happen. Everyone on this group ride was capable of making their own decisions.

When I drive car rally's we have to sign a waiver before we start saying that we understand there are risks involved and that nobody else, including the organiser, is responsible for our actions. Perhaps, if this is going to become an issue, we could implement this sort of thing for future group rides, to avoid arguments like this ensuing.

There is no way anyone can know what everyone elses skill levels are, what their understanding and knowledge is of their bike, of riding, the roads etc.

It can therefore only be the responsibility of the rider themselves.

[Katman]

In short, the fact that I may ride quickly on a group ride does not mean that I do not care for the welfare of the other riders.

If you know that someone is overstepping their ability in an effort to keep up with you and you do nothing about it I would suggest that shows very little concern for the welfare of that other person.

[aff-man]

People need to ask themselves - "Do I care whether everyone gets home safely from a ride that I have been part of"?

If the answer is "no, I don't care" then I'd suggest that person needs to take a good hard look at their morals.

If the answer is "yes" than the person should next ask themselves "am I prepared to do what I can to try to ensure that everyone gets home safely".

It then becomes a question of what you're prepared to do.

Trying to reason out what you've just said and can't quite grasp the concept? You're basically saying people should NOT ride their own rides but in fact spend their time worrying if a less experienced rider can't "keep it in their pants".

What I am prepared to do is go on a ride, ride TO MY abilities, not endanger those around me with erratic undisiplined riding and not goad people into trying to ride beyond their abilities.

It is on me to do these things and if I do and nothing unforseen happens then I should have a marvelously enjoyable day and get home safe..

[idleidolidyll]

If they are behind me, how would I know they are exceeding their ability?

You are still offering fallacy instead of reasoned debate. Appeals to emotion are almost always fallacy.

You are doing a really good job of making a fool of yourself

[smoky]

That in group rides people tend to become less risk averse than if they riding alone, there is less regard of the norms (less respect of the law), and an individual's responsibility is diluted throughout the group.


I actually find that group rides are more restrained than when I go out with a couple of mates, or by myself?

[Ixion]

If they are behind me, how would I know they are exceeding their ability?

You are still offering fallacy instead of reasoned debate. Appeals to emotion are almost always fallacy.

You are doing a really good job of making a fool of yourself

And if he be in front of you, what can you do about it ? Try to overtake him to warn him that he's riding too fast. Just making things worse, isn't it. Flash your headlamps - he's hardly likely to understand . And if an experienced rider *is* riding beyond his limits, odds are the first anyone but he will know of it, is when he's headed for the ditch.

[smoky]

People need to ask themselves - "Do I care whether everyone gets home safely from a ride that I have been part of"?
If the answer is "yes" than the person should next ask themselves "am I prepared to do what I can to try to ensure that everyone gets home safely".

It then becomes a question of what you're prepared to do.
I don't think katman's question is invalid!
I know most on this thread are expressing the opposite - but I think it's a question we should be asking.

I'm not saying we have to assess the riding skills of any other rider - as pointed out, that's not practical; but I do think the we have opted to be part of a collective, in a very loose form, (KB) by reading the post and turning up for a ride - we should at lest consider what responsibilities that brings with it! Shouldn't we?



It is not your responsibility to ride at any slower pace just because you are on a group ride.

Personal responsibility. The rider within his skill and reaction levels does not have a responsibility for the other rider. If that were the case we would always ride at 50kph when with learners etc.

..the other rider might be deliberately looking to follow fast riders to push their limits. Even by themselves they might be pushing the limit of their ability.
Part of the reality of a group ride is to follow the faster riders and learn their lines, braking technique etc. Again, the responsibility is always on the rider themself.
I guess I am use to being some one others tend to (I hesitate to use the expression) 'look up to'. I realise my behavior, not talking about KB, does influence others, weather I like it or not. I have learnt to watch how much I drink around my nephews and nieces setting a good example, Dial down my driving while my son or nephews and are in the car - I don't want them thinking they should drive like I do - I care about them. I go fishing with a couple of others - have been known to take a few risks, but when I go with a larger organised group I don't - why, because it stresses people, makes others uncomfortable, I know what I can do - but wouldn't want others to take risks they may not be prepared for.
I guess I carry that kind of social responsibility with me when I go out riding.

BTW: i hate that word 'fast'. Often fast does not mean exceeding the speed limit, it may mean relative to other riders or to the speed at which others take the same corner etc. I prefer "quick" or "quickly".

You're right - 'fast' can be any speed depending on the road conditions, bike, and other factors, but we all know what I mean

[cave weta]

Especially when he has only half the cubes and hasn't even got road tyres on!

He he.... He saying Ive got big cubes!:2thumbsup

Edit: and its not a Motard- Its just a Dirt Bike :woohoo:

132784

[The Stranger]

So when do you stick to your own advice Carver

Last time I did a loop with him. What did you think of Carver's riding Grahameeboy?

[The Stranger]

Agreed with the "stopping and having a chat" option.

Sure, why not. But as well we know, that can be an absolute waste of time. We all know the legend of ***. NO amount of chatting with him by any of a HUGE number of people made one snot of difference.

Unless of course you were referring to talking with your hands.

[The Stranger]

With a large ride though is there not some degree of leadership or is it a potluck free-for-all?

Why?
I fooken HATE leadership!
Leadership is dangerous. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. But what is far worse is that for each leader there must be followers. THEY are more often than not the dangerous bastards.
Who was Adolph Hitler without followers?
Which brings us back to the point of the thread - followers MUST think for themselves! Don't rely on a leader to do your thinking for you - he may be an arsehole.

If I were to turn up and discover that I didn't "fit in" because everyone else wanted to "race" then I would take responsibility myself for hanging behind and just pootling along, even if it was on my lonesome. It would be nice though if there was some kindhearted rider who might shepherd me, although my suspicion is that I'm more likely to be told htfu or piss off. Hope not!

I have only ever been on one group ride where it was strictly each man for themselves. The route and stops were discussed and agreed at each stop. It went off without a hitch, perhaps as luck would have it. Of the dozens of other group rides I have been on a pointer system has been implemented and no one has been left behind. We ride as individuals, however appreciate the company of others, this is what KB is about isn't it? It makes no sense to leave them behind then does it?
You should not feel you need to keep up, nor that you are holding anyone up or in any way a nuisance. Though I do realise that some think they are, I can't ever recall a situation where I have ever heard someone say "I wish ______ would keep up". If it comes down to it, the quicker guys will often peel back to find the slower riders, which works out just fine as it allows you to do the ride again - double the fun.

[hayd3n]

we have patience here in otago we even wait for the 125cc scooters

[Grahameeboy]

Last time I did a loop with him. What did you think of Carver's riding Grahameeboy?

It was really a tongue in cheek comment...have never ridden with him so cannot comment although I guess there is the image he portrays on Kb which I suspect is also tongue in cheek

[Motu]

I wonder how the tone of this thread would of gone for the same size group and mishap....if said riders were all patched gang members?...??

[cowpoos]

The difference between a really good rider and an average rider is huge. What looks extremely risky to an average rider may only be 8/10ths for the very good rider

8/10ths or less...Defiantly agree with you over this.

because if you ears drop on groups of riders...anyone thats slower than someone is a stupid slow idiot....anyone thats faster is a crazy irresponsible temporary NZer

funny that

[DMNTD]

Sure, why not. But as well we know, that can be an absolute waste of time. We all know the legend of ***. NO amount of chatting with him by any of a HUGE number of people made one snot of difference.

Unless of course you were referring to talking with your hands.

Oh yes..."the Legend of...". I try and forget that but to no avail. Maybe more rum/bourbon may help.

Agreed it may not resolve but when it's mine and/or my friends' safety at stake anything has to be better than nothing.
The having a chat with the hands things is left for extreme cases

[AD345]

I do a lot of group riding. In fact this year I have been out at least once on every weekend (bar two) and a few times through the week and I think there have only been 2 or 3 occasions where I was by myself.

Its a big part of what I enjoy about bikes at the moment and it's why my friends and I founded our club.

The groups are usually small and range from 3 to a dozen with most being 5 or so. Because we have been doing it for a while now we usually don't think twice about each others riding but we had some interesting times at the start and we also have a few other people join us from time to time (it's cos we're cool :rofl: )

Anyway - at the start we worked out a few rules we were going to follow. Now bear in mind that, as a club, we have a slightly more formal framework in which to work that a loose collection of strangers. After trial and error and my having a robust discussion with one particular recaltriant member we settled on the following:

Staggered in/out formation where people want to hang as a bunch and loose inline formation (3 - 4 second separation) for those who want more room.

No undertaking

Don't pass the trip leader - that way lies confusion.

Those members bringing a friend have to let the trip coordinator know of their friends ability and they are responsible for ensuring their friend has a good time and gets to the end. They go at the back.

Like I said - we have a different framework than a KB ride. After the inital discussions it seems to be working out for us and we can have rides that pootle along at 90 - 100k and others that zip along somewhat more that that. It helps that we are all riding similar bikes but the abilities and experiences are vastly different and everyone gets to do what they do best. Those at the front wait for those behind at intersections or verges (or pubs) and we mght have 12 bikes all in one stagger for the whole trip or be stretched for 10 minutes or more along the road. Its up to the people riding to decide how they feel and the pace they are enjoying - hangovers and pillions also tend to factor heavily.

Those that ride with us know the score and seem to have a blast as well - otherwise they are encouraged to express themselves on another section of highway.

Sometimes we will join with other groups on Poker runs and the like. We generally stick as a bunch and do our own thing (OK - a little bit of it is showing off the bikes :ride: )

I guess my point is that with something as loosely structured as a KB ride there needs to be a huge onus on the individual to "ride their own ride". there isn't the structure that comes from a club ride and trying to instil that would be impossible and create more problems that it solves.

I feel if that was spelled out in the invite and the inital meeting point thats about all anyone could be expected to do.

There's no mystical brotherhood of bikers in a situation like that and neither is a there a collective responsibility. There's simply a group of people on bikes all going in the same direction at the same time. If that simple fact doesn't keep you on your guard then you are not fully aware of what riding a bike entails anyway (and you can go waaaaay in front of/behind me OK?).

[beyond]

Having ridden bikes for almost 40 years now and as an ex racer and group rider, here's my comment and opinion:

Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.

For the most part, judgements on the riskyness of any move by another rider must be taken with a grain of salt.
The only one really who knows for sure whether a move can be made is the rider themselves as they know their own bike, suspension, brakes, power, reflexes, and ability and are usually the closest to the gap, stop pont, corner etc.

It is easy to judge incorrectly from a distance but with modern bikes having 0-100kph times of under 3 seconds; the speed at which a bike can get through a gap is phenomenal. Nobody further than 15 metres or so behind can really judge whether there was room or not as they did not have posession of all the variables as above; they are just judging from their often inadequate abilites, reaction times, poorly suspended, ill handling, low power bikes etc etc

The difference between a really good rider and an average rider is huge. What looks extremely risky to an average rider may only be 8/10ths for the very good rider.

This thread has become one of opinion not fact. It is a thread where some are making calls from ignorance rather than fact. You may say "in my opinion....." or "from my experience....." but unless you are Valentino Rossi etc; you are quite likely to be leaping to conclusions that are often ill conceived or based on your own mediocre skill, personal baggage or paranoia.


I think this sums things up really and is well in line on how I think about these events as well.

Firstly, as usual, when things go pear shaped then people get upset and start saying things they normally wouldn't.

I know a hell of a lot of people on KB and have ridden with hundreds of them.

Some ride really well and others not so well. I have never said anything about them I wouldn't say to their faces but so what if you don't ride fast or if you ride slow or are not comfortable about following others. Ride your own ride.
I enjoy riding with others but are the first to admit when on my own or a smaller group of like minded riders, I ride a hell of a lot harder than I do on a group ride.

On large group rides, I have found most people polarise into groups spread along the route to their own comfort and ability levels.

Points I would like to offer:
1. Idle is quite right. Some people ride at their "normal" level and to others they are considered lunatics. What is normal to one rider may be way out of depth for another.

2. If a less "quick" rider wants to upskill, they can only do so by following the lines of a "quicker" "smoother" rider.
I thoroughly enjoy riding but ride at a pace many would consider the "edge" for them, but for me it's a good pace and is great stress relief. I am the first to concede that there will be much better riders than myself and will always button off if I know I'm getting to near the ragged edge for my machine.

3. All of us head out for a ride and expect to return home and hope like hell that everyone on a group ride will return as well. Noone takes delight in the demise of another, no matter how minor.

I know Carver reasonably well and have ridden with him and know he is quick but generally safe and so are many others I have ridden with. I will not judge as I am sure others have seen some of my manouevres and thought that might be too risky, as I have of them, but we are all different and we all generally know our own bikes.

If we were to be held responsible for every rider that came on a ride, then half the day would be spent testing to see who is the slowest, least experienced rider and then everyone would have to ride at that pace and no quicker.

I can assure you that no one would bother to organise rides anymore and it has nothing to do with not watching out for your fellow men or women.

As in every risk activity, it is up to the individual to assess and manage their own risk levels.

[Squiggles]

Group rides, riding as a pack or sharing a common destination...hmm

[DMNTD]

Group rides, riding as a pack or sharing a common destination...hmm

My preference...everyone rides their own ride and has a laugh at the other end.

[Grant`]

My preference...everyone rides their own ride and has a laugh at the other end.


I can vouch for that as i am last to show up toany destination on any of the tauranga pootles i get shit for my heated grips but not for ridin in my comfort zone.

[Squiggles]

Group rides, riding as a pack or sharing a common destination...hmm

Anyone else? Interesting to see the perception people have of the two...

[Danae]

Group rides, riding as a pack or sharing a common destination...hmm

I say riding as a pack...a band of amigos. Not just a bunch of people riding together for the convenience of it

[Ragingrob]

Anyone else? Interesting to see the perception people have of the two...

Sharing a common destination with the pack as a whole, then riding "with" a few of the people I know and feel comfortable riding with.

Pretty much riding by myself, but with the fun fact that there's a mate up ahead and in my mirror :2thumbsup

[skidMark]

Sharing a common destination with the pack as a whole, then riding "with" a few of the people I know and feel comfortable riding with.

Pretty much riding by myself, but with the fun fact that there's a mate up ahead and in my mirror :2thumbsup


Does this make us friends now then, although i was never in your mirror... lol

[rocketman1]

I always find group rides faster than I would normally ride with close mates or solo.I am not young, but find that pack mentality does take over, when riding in large groups and you easily get caught up in the "race".
I think I am experienced and wise enough to "check" myself and say to myself "hey dude your not as good as the guy in front, dont try to stay with him" but its a hard thing to do.
If I think back to when I was in my twenties, I would have really struggled to check myself, peer pressure would reign supreme, and bugger the consequences would more than likely have taken over my brain.
I have run wide on corners once or twice, and been in situations where if a car had been coming it would have been history for me.I look on those times of lunacy real hard, and thank god luck was on my side. I have decided ( and it has taken a few years to sink in) that you dont have to ride like those up front, you check yourself constantly and think often of your loved ones at home who will suffer if you stuff up.
Ride your own ride, and tell yourself before each ride that you are determined to make it back home . I think it helps

[Squiggles]

I always find group rides faster than I would normally ride with close mates or solo.I am not young, but find that pack mentality does take over, when riding in large groups and you easily get caught up in the "race".

Do you think group rides are faster when you're riding in a pack, or when everyone is more spread out (i.e. doing the same route with the common destination but you might end up following one or two people / being passed and left by others)?

[cowboyz]

i would consider myself to be a skilled rider, and a fast one.
i rarely feel panicked or stressed when riding, i just relax and ride by feel and consistency.
but i will never be a safety nazi, a holier than thou, you all take responsiblity for yourselves, and you should all be able to think for yourselves.

I agree with personal responsibility. I dont expect to spend my weekends babysitting. I go on group rides but to be fair most of the group riding I do these days are with the same group of riders and we know each other well enough that we know we have nothing to prove. Sure someone might beat me downa stretch of road but it doesnt change the fact that I look better doing it...............

I have said for a long time, I am not a fast rider, I just ride a fast bike. The problem with riding slower is it is difficult to judge how slow is slow just to accomodate someone else. I have been down stretches of road in the front of a group and thought I was pootling to find others well behind. I have also been well behind the group. Depends how *I* feel on the day, and I expect everyone else I ride with to judge how *they* feel on the day and adjust their riding accordingly.

I've said it before and I'll say it again........

Sites like this have a lot to answer for. It is far too easy for like minded fuckheads to organise a ride that is destined for sadness.

should there be a CV and interview process, and maybe a little ride round the block for each rider before the ride to decide who is the most appropriate and skilled rider to judge the riding of all the others to access what speeds the group will ride during the day?



A valid point if a ride is posted up as "learner friendly" or "newbie" or such like. But when its posted up as "Fast blast by experienced riders, other such welcome to join", the I don't think any imputation can be made. Those whpo join in must make their own call: either "keep up" (and all that entails) , or accept being the "arrives at the pub as everyone else is finishing their lunch". Like me. No harm done, if you're slow enough, the kitchen has finished all the fast riders' orders and you don't have to wait.

Sometimes, shit just happens. Things can be overanalyzed.
If a ride is posted as a learner or newbie ride then one expects learners or newbies to attend. This doesnt stop fast riders getting out the front and waiting at the stop. That doesnt bother me at all. What does bother me is fast riders who bait slower riders or brag because they got so far ahead. I just dont care.

[Brett]

rules for any MFSC ride are No Rules
your expected to look after yourself, as you know best.

And that is how it should be. However, apparently new riders/other riders need to be told how to think (according to Katman), which is BS. If you cant think things through and ride your own ride, then you don't belong on a motorbike, or on the road at all.
No one else is going to look out for your own best interests like you can. Use your head, that is why God gave you a brain.

[Qkkid]

I would just like to say it is sad that a wife and two kids have no dad anymore.
We need to realise we have partners ,riding sometimes becomes a very selfish thing. It just is. I have heard the facts and have made mistakes of my own. We must all think about when we hop on our bikes about the loved ones we leave to pick up the pieces when something goes wrong. Sometimes we need to think about "what if" maybe gravel or car on wrong side of road or maybe shit i fucked up my line. My Condolences to the family.

[Ragingrob]

And that is how it should be. However, apparently new riders/other riders need to be told how to think (according to Katman), which is BS. If you cant think things through and ride your own ride, then you don't belong on a motorbike, or on the road at all.
No one else is going to look out for your own best interests like you can. Use your head, that is why God gave you a brain.

Well I would make an exception for the new riders. They do need to be told to ride their own ride, otherwise sometimes monkey see monkey do as they don't realise the extent of skill others have and may try to match the wrong person's riding.

But that is mainly concerning learner-focused rides, where responsibility is still individual overall but the newer riders do have somewhat of an expectation of the experienced to lead the way safely (from the newbies point of view).

Anyway that's a different story.

Anyway squiggles after chattin with ya I know what ya mean by 'pack'. And yes, on a group ride I would rather be riding with my comrades within view when I come around the corner than riding by myself with others miles ahead but going to the same destination. As you said, rides are much more enjoyable when they are split into a few groups which ride at the group's preferred pace, as opposed to one large group riding at the individual's pace.

[smoky]

Does this make us friends now then, although i was never in your mirror... lol
Do you know how desperate that sounds

[Genestho]

I would just like to say it is sad that a wife and two kids have no dad anymore.....
... My Condolences to the family.

My condolences to the family also.

[Brett]

Well I would make an exception for the new riders. They do need to be told to ride their own ride, otherwise sometimes monkey see monkey do as they don't realise the extent of skill others have and may try to match the wrong person's riding.

But that is mainly concerning learner-focused rides, where responsibility is still individual overall but the newer riders do have somewhat of an expectation of the experienced to lead the way safely (from the newbies point of view).

Anyway that's a different story.

Anyway squiggles after chattin with ya I know what ya mean by 'pack'. And yes, on a group ride I would rather be riding with my comrades within view when I come around the corner than riding by myself with others miles ahead but going to the same destination. As you said, rides are much more enjoyable when they are split into a few groups which ride at the group's preferred pace, as opposed to one large group riding at the individual's pace.

No, defintely.

I would always start a group ride off by saying that everyne should ride to their abilities and that it is not a race. Beyond that, it is their responsibility to ride within their limits. If they are dangerous on the ride and put other riders at risk, they will be spoken to, but you can only go so far in making people's decisions for them.

And as was noted earlier on, it only takes a momentary fuck up to make a good day end tragically. It only takes a small thing to make it happen.
I know that on group rides I am tempted to push the envelope harder than I do on my own, that is why I often ride alone and when I do go out on a ride, I am careful about keeping my head space clear...
Every time I ride, I am slowly growing a little further away from road riding....(Because things bother me now that never used to)

[smoky]

My condolences to the family also.

Is this turning into a condolence thread? I don't think it should - out of respect
there's too much other crap on here that would reflect insensitively if we start using it as a condolence thread

I have notice no one has made us aware of the deceaseds handle on KB, so there is no where to post condolences - perhaps one of his riding mates may want to start one?

Or should the blog his mother started be the appropriate place, but then not everyone on here new his real name?

Perhaps a Mod could sort this out and clean this thread up afterwards


AS one of the few who saw the accident happen, I'd like to put a lid on this bullshit now!

The rider who crashed was NOT racing, nor was he even going fast. .....and I believe his skill level was at least average. ...... it was an accident and NOT due to any outrageous behaviour.

If you want to talk about group ride accidents or racing on the road, don't use this example because you are clutching at straws and quite wrong. It's insulting and disrespectful.

[Laxi]

Is this turning into a condolence thread? I don't think it should - out of respect
there's too much other crap on here that would reflect insensitively if we start using it as a condolence thread

I have notice no one has made us aware of the deceaseds handle on KB, so there is no where to post condolences - perhaps one of his riding mates may want to start one?

Or should the blog his mother started be the appropriate place, but then not everyone on here new his real name?

Perhaps a Mod could sort this out and clean this thread up afterwards

ther is a funeral notice for him

[smoky]

ther is a funeral notice for him

Where is the notice posted?

[Ragingrob]

Yes, this thread is not about what happened on Saturday. Sure, accidents like that trigger this kind of talk, but we are not arguing in any way about the weekend. It would be best therefore that Sat isn't referred to in this thread.

There is a funeral notice thread up, where people may post there condolences.

[Laxi]

Where is the notice posted?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=101941 its real shame too, was a well known and liked member, im going to miss his posts
EDIT: now that it is public knowledge, its probably best that all the guessing at what happened stop until the facts are known

[Ragingrob]

Where is the notice posted?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=101941&page=1

[Mschvs]

while thats a good idea, if you do not know the person, and in your eyes, they seem to be doing ok, you would assume all is well.

Not throwing blame around as I do agree, each rider should ride to his own abilities. but what is it they say about assumption being the mother, brother or any other sucker of all fuck ups?

[crazyhorse]

I have always wanted to do the Coast to Coast ride. But as the numbers of bikes attending these kind of events usually are huge, there are always accidents. I would rather avoid riding in large numbers then be in the middle of carnage caused by someone else trying to outdo the next guy.

I am no saint either - and was told in the weekend, that I should slow down, because there are alot of guys who don't like riding behind chicks - they should build a bridge. :argh: Shouldn't matter what sex you are, if you can ride, then ride and I'm at the front alot.

They shouldn't be putting themselves in that situation of over trying. I still only ride to how I feel on the day, and somedays I ride slower. I do notice cones and cowshit on the road - whereas alot of guys don't.

[CookMySock]

Coro loop carnage happens all the time. This one has really polarised KB.. Why?

Is this become socially unacceptable?

Steve

[Quasievil]

Is this become socially unacceptable?

Steve

Um er yeah I think it has sheeeeesh

[Ixion]

Do you think group rides are faster when you're riding in a pack, or when everyone is more spread out (i.e. doing the same route with the common destination but you might end up following one or two people / being passed and left by others)?

I think that in any large group the latter is almost always the case. I find that after a bit I end up matching pace with a few other riders who happen to have a similar dynamic to me. After maybe passing a few and being passed by many. If not, then I just pootle along at my own rate.

It may vary through the ride too. Depending on if the ride swings off to roads I'm not familiar with, so I slow down, then back to a road I know so I speed up. And one slows down as one becomes tired cold or hungry.

I don't have any problem with any of the KB group rides I've been on (admittedly, not a hell of a lot). They've been as organised as it is reasonable to expect. And I have *never* seen any pressure on anyone to "keep up".

Sometimes y'know, tragedies are just that. Shit happens. Not because the rider was inexperienced, or because the ride was badly organised , or anything. Just - shit happens. One minute y'r slowly crawling up the urinal wall that is destiny, the next minute Helmut von Hornihumper, or one of his drunken biker god mates says "Hey see that biker crawling up the dunny - watch me piss him down the drain". Things can be over analysed. Sometimes they just have to be accepted.

[Maha]

Coro loop carnage happens all the time. This one has really polarised KB.. Why?

Is this become socially unacceptable?

Steve

It is accepted that any (not every) Coro loop ride will not be clean one. Not always resulting in a death, but, bins? yes. And thats compounded by the sheer numbers that turn up, percentages and all that shit.
We could debate this question forever. There have been bins on KB Coro rides that have never been reported on here. And its accepted that, if a Coro thread doesn't get much action after the ride, something has happened.

[Ixion]

It's not a forgiving road. Was more fun before they sealed the Kopu road, really.Nowadays it gets too much traffic.

But, the group rides I've been on through there I've not seen anything to comment on. No more than any other ride anyway.

[Quasievil]

Best crash rate on a Coro ride I went on was 5 bins in one ride, one rider binned it twice lol
mind you the rider ability was gagging for it

[Ragingrob]

Let me try to explain the way Squiggles has run a few rides in the past for the SMC group.

We all meet at one place as a large group and talk a load of shit :niceone:

Then Squiggles will have a good 5min chat, even giving each bike a once over, any bike not road worthy can fuck off. He'll explain the way the ride will be run.

We will ride not as one large group spread out, but more as two or three different paced groups. All of course heading the same route to the same destination.

The faster boys can boost ahead, and the slower group cruise along behind, with sometimes an in-between group developing.

If you wanna go faster, then you can catch up to the group ahead (especially at the next stopping point). If you feel uncomfortable going faster, then peel off and stop, then jump onto the slower group as the come past.

Each group will be riding at "the pace". Pretty much keep the person behind you visible in your mirror.

This leads to nobody ending up by themselves, and no pressure as you can choose whatever group ya want and everybody's sweet with however slow you wanna go. It clearly separates the different skill levels/speed desires, eliminating speed differentials within a group.

For us, this makes for an awesome day out. :scooter:

[Ixion]

So much pain! I have always in my time here said that I hate coming on here after the w/e as that is when we have time to ride. And to die. There would be nobody on here who had wishes for something like this to happen. But it did. Yes, the signs were there for someone clearvoyant to see: - First KB ride on a new big fast bike. - Experienced riders in the group. - Very tricky ride. - Lack of organisation on the ride. etc. I know that all on here would, if we could, bring him back at any cost. But we sadly do not have those powers. PLEASE those who organise rides: There is a responsibility you carry. Take it seriously. Others will rely on you. You do have the power to limit the chances of something like this happening. No, you can not prevent it. But PLEASE lets learn from this. Lets not this go without something good coming out of it. My simple mind comes up with a few things to consider: Someone organises a ride. That someone needs to be responsible enough to realise that some basic rules must be followed: - Separate riders in to a couple (or more) groups beased on experience. Have a leader in each group. - Passing rules. - Provide a clear plan where the ride goes. Even a simple map! - Stops. Have them planned. - First aid gear and a working mobile in each group! I have ridden in groups many times. But today I do bail straight away if disorganised. If you are to ride with riders you have no idea who they are or how they ride it is a gamble. If I ride with such a group I will always ride last. Again, this will not bring the rider back. I sincerely wish it would! But he would, as a newbie to this riding, have expected that someone with more experience took responsibility. Clearly nobody did. And I am not getting at anyone here. I know that whoever feel he/she could have done better already knows that. But please, lets be more responsible re our fellow riders. Take some leadership! I copied this here from the "coro loop" because I felt comment in that thread would be both grating and be too much associated with one particular event.

The comment above is general, and on the face of it constructive.

But, I suggest, it is also unrealistic.

People speak of "ride organisers" . Now, things like the Westpac Helicopter run, or the BRONZ Toy run have "ride organisers". And they are very organised.

But y' typical weekend ride, that's not how it works.

It's much more a case of someone saying "I'm riding to XXX on Saturday. Anyone want to tag along? I'll be leaving from the YY servo at Z o'clock. See y'there. Or not".

And when people turn up, how is the hapless organiser supposed to "Separate riders in to a couple (or more) groups based on experience. ". Odds are he may never have met them before. Has no idea at of their capabilities. And often, it's not experience that matters so much as discretion. And talent. Can you (or anyone) look at a random biker and tell whether he's going to be a nana or a hell-for-leather. Sure, y' can get a few clues from bike and gear. But they can be deceptive.

Passing rules ? Yeah yeah. How are you (our by now throughly miserable "ride organiser" ) going to enforce them. Does every KB ride need a Master at Arms along?

As to having maps and planned stops, a lot of the time the route isn't fixed until the set off. The ride organiser (poor bugger all he wanted was to go for a ride, not organise a military campaign) has an idea of where he intended to go. But often that gets amended based on other peoples preferences, weather , reports of road conditions etc. It's a weekend ride, not the invasion of Europe.

I don't think it's fair to expect someone who is really just saying "want to tag along" to have to take responsibility for everyone who says "yeah, I'm a starter".

I've been on KB group rides. Some of them have been "learner" rides. And considerable attention has been paid on those to ensuring that novices are not "over tehir heads" . others ahve ben just general rides "want to tag along". Some have been too fast for me. that's OK, my call. Mostly they've been well enough organised in terms of corner markers and such like. And I have *never* 9really, not evr) been on a ride where an obvious novice has not been looked after. Someone (usally many ones) will keep an eye on him or her, usually even shepheard the novice along. But people can't be expected to do that for riders are are purportedly experienced and competant.

Years ago I went on a few VERY organised rides. With very strict rules. Enforced. Tight stagger, no overtaking, y'follow the lead of y' wheelman, or the Ride Captain. And above all, y don't stuff up. Cos no matter how painful a stuff up might be, the subsequent meeting with the Master at Arms would be more painful. I don't think many people on this site would want to go on rides like that.

People here don't "organise rides" . They're not paid to do it, it's not fair to expect them to do it. They just go for a ride and ask if anyone else wants to come along. I think that's a hospitable and friendly invitation. Whether I accept it or not is up to me. And once I've accepted it , I shouldn't expect others to baby sit me.

Y'know, when I go on a ride of any sort, there's only one person twisting the throttle on my bike. I reckon that's the guy that needs to organise my ride for me. And if I end up in a ditch, well that's down to the guy that twisted the throttle open too far. No-one else.

Once again let me make it very explicitly clear that i am NOT referring to learner or newbie focused rides here. Or, indeed to any ride where there is someone obviously inexperienced (like, an L plate on the back, or maybe just riding a 250). I'm talking rides where those participating are experienced riders, on large bikes.

[Mschvs]

Coro loop carnage happens all the time. This one has really polarised KB.. Why?

Is this become socially unacceptable?

Steve


Polarised ... I think may be the wrong word. You may find along with the black and white comments here, that there are many grey areas in between also ...

[Ragingrob]

Snip

People speak of "ride organisers" . Now, things like the Westpac Helicopter run, or the BRONZ Toy run have "ride organisers". And they are very organised.

But y' typical weekend ride, that's not how it works.

It's much more a case of someone saying "I'm riding to XXX on Saturday. Anyone want to tag along? I'll be leaving from the YY servo at Z o'clock. See y'there. Or not".

And when people turn up, how is the hapless organiser supposed to "Separate riders in to a couple (or more) groups based on experience. ". Odds are he may never have met them before. Has no idea at of their capabilities. And often, it's not experience that matters so much as discretion. And talent. Can you (or anyone) look at a random biker and tell whether he's going to be a nana or a hell-for-leather. Sure, y' can get a few clues from bike and gear. But they can be deceptive.

Snip

Agree with you completely here Ixion. This weekend I had posted up the fact I'm going for a cruise and anyone from SMC feel free to join + learner friendly.

I knew just one person was definitely coming to join me, eleven others turned up at the meeting point! Suddenly I felt I had a responsibility to organise it properly. Luckily there were no real learners as such (one guy having a bit of trouble riding with pillion went home), so I just explained the general route I was going to take. I felt that I'd have to ride TEC just to keep an eye on things, although I had no idea if he was a learner as such or what.

So for me, Sat was a perfect example of an un-planned group ride as such, and even then I still felt somewhat responsible for any events that would take place. Although I know that everybody had taken it aboard themselves to ride as individuals and take responsibility for their own actions.

When this happens I think that there should be a decent attempt to create some communication in terms of a briefing in the slightest.

[slofox]

I would have to say that the Waikato LOR group rides I have been on have never given me much cause for concern - apart perhaps from the odd close following distance from time to time.
I have no trouble keeping my own pace. I also like to ride in space, so I keep distance from the riders in front of me and if someone is close behind I will slow to let them pass. I do the same on any road ride with other traffic, group or not - ride in a gap and ride to find a gap if in heavy traffic.
A degree of organisation on a group ride is not amiss, especially for the less experienced riders but ultimately I have to agree that each is responsible for themselves. Which is why I think Carver's original post is pertinent here.
But then, I have been riding for gazillions of years and the desire to impress is well behind now. I have little enough time left on this planet to not want to shorten it any more...and what time I do have, I want to spend riding as much as possible. So I try to ride safe. Safe for ME. Whatever others might do.

[Katman]

If I wanted to 'organise' a ride I'd ring around or PM a few friends (yes, I do have some) to see if they fancied getting together.

An open invitation on KB invariably turns into a haphazard free-for-all and in doing so becomes something that's almost impossible to 'organise'.

[Mikkel]

On the subject of group riding:

It isn't just in the field of motorcycling that you can get into grief if you let your ego take you for a joyride - although the consequences are often more spectacular and permanent in motorcycling compared to other activities.


If you're feeling any pressure to push yourself, you're with the wrong crowd I reckon. Well if they are gonna judge you for it.

If you feel a need to push yourself when riding with a group you are in the wrong state of mind and really need to take a break and sort yourself out.


I for one, No longer ride fast. Ill quite happily let the other guy think hes 'more skilled' than me as he rides faster. I still do have trouble though not giving out the learn when the push their big ego around saying how awesome they are. Im working on it though.

Good man.


On the subject of saturday:

I wasn't there, I don't know what happened and from what I have read on here it was just a very tragic event. However, it does not sound like an event that was caused by an ego-laden atmosphere or even anyone pushing the envelope.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I have certainly had an occassion or two where I have managed to cross the centerline involuntarily because my focus slipped for a second and my eyes got glued to something they should stay away from. Not because I was going hardout, but because something just threw my mind of balance (e.g. seeing patch of grit on a blind corner - and on that occassion carver's advice in the OP would have seen me happily riding on the inside of said patch of grit...).
It's a terrible feeling and I rode away thinking "I just died, right there." Only chance meant that there wasn't a stocktruck heading the other way at 90 km/h... we can not all be that lucky all of the time. In just the same manner that some people walk away unscathed from major fuck-ups there will be times where the smallest mistake can be fatal. When your number is up, it is up - try to draw as few numbers as possible.

And you guys who were there to watch it happen, you have my most heartfelt compassion. I know you will never forget - but I hope it won't trouble your sleep for too long. As one of the guys said, talk to eachother about it - it's the best way to process it.

I didn't know disturbed, but I have a feeling it could have been any of us - RIP Michael.

[Unit]

Well Im riding one of the biggest, fastest bikes around. I ride in group rides often, a lot of the time thats with the Tauranga crew and we know each others riding very very well. Ive done several coro group rides. I usually find Im on my own, could be 20-30 bikes out there, Im on my own, at my pace, usually last to arrive at said destination. Great, my drink and lunch already ordered for me.
We have had a number of new and inexperienced riders join our crew lately, and they get the same speech from all of us, ride no more than 80% of your known (to yourself) ability, dont try to keep up, here's where we are going, one of us will follow for a while to monitor new riders ability, but in the end your out there on your own. We care about each other, patiently wait when we stop for the stragglers to catch up, then carry on.
The big group KB rides, each person has to put into context, look after yourself, buddy yourself up, take responsibility for yourself. Be safe.
Im sadden there was a tragedy on the weekend, and my thoughts are with everyone who has been affected by this.

[Matt Bleck]

If I wanted to 'organise' a ride I'd ring around or PM a few friends (yes, I do have some) to see if they fancied getting together.

An open invitation on KB invariably turns into a haphazard free-for-all and in doing so becomes something that's almost impossible to 'organise'.

I like the open invitation KB rides, it's a great way to meet people and make new friends.

[Katman]

I like the open invitation KB rides, it's a great way to meet people and make new friends.

And if that was what they were all about I'd come along to every one.

[idleidolidyll]

I like the open invitation KB rides, it's a great way to meet people and make new friends.

That IS what they are about and that IS why I like them too.

Those and the SATNR have given me a bunch of new friends with whom I ride on other days in smaller groups.

[Fatjim]

Riding hard should be kept to the track, and the TRTNR.

[Chrislost]

And if that was what they were all about I'd come along to every one.

So, in your opinion what are they about?

I believe you may be one of the only ones who actually thinks whatever you answer to that is the truth...

[Katman]

So, in your opinion what are they about?

I believe you may be one of the only ones who actually thinks whatever you answer to that is the truth...

They're all about the race.

It's the truth (TM).

:wacko:

[caseye]

"The race" is never far away on any ride, be it 2 riders or 100 riders.
The trick is to ride to your own ability and not to be sucked into any shenanigans.
If you can't do that in a group ride situation then don't go along! Who said that?
Christ, I did! wow, but I can't tell someone else what to do, I can and have advised them to simply " ride their own ride at their pace".
No one can do more than that.
Sure a quick route discussion an agreement that the front runners( ha what were we saying) will stop and wait at mjaor intersections and the ultimate destination unveilled are all accepted as common practice.
But to split groups into fast medium and slow is hypocracy at it's worst
Who is going to do that?
Based on what information?
"Ride organisers"
"Yeah right"! those who actually use such a term for any KB or othewise group ride are guilty of needing someone else to take responsibility for their own actions as they can't do it for themsleves.
Therefore they shouldn't be there in the first place.
I've been lucky to make some good riding mates over the last year or so and I don't know any of them who'd up and leave me stranded if I was having problems, they'd wait with me and or ride at my pace with me till, I got home safe and sound.
Those same guys and girls ride some damn fine machines capable of very rapid transits but they look out for their mates too.

[gunnyrob]

I enjoy riding my own ride. Last Saturday (the 20th) I rode the loop with 3 other KBers. We all rode at a pace that we individually enjoyed. At one stage I was ahead, but then stopped for the others to catch up. I was not in the slightest miffed when some of the others "came on song" & went ahead, in fact, I was even treated to a "special wave" by a delightful bunch of drunken hens on a bus tour just before Coro township once they realised bikers were on the road behind them (Just me at that stage).

Today I led a group of beginner riders (assisted by advanced riders) at an open road speed of 70kph. Everyone had fun.

I have pretty much stepped up to giving the pre ride briefs at the ATNR if Dawn can't attend. I give a brief about pointing, leading, Tail End Charlies, actions in the event of an oops etc. I normally finish off with "Let's have a good time, & please consider others." I would be gutted if I were in Andy's position & if people would accuse me of being a crap organiser if someone got hurt on a public road, I would have to say that they were advised of the risks & they still took part.

Fuick, just before Christmas, a ride I was leading hit some unmarked roadworks & 3 of 5 bikes went down the road. Was it my fault? no. Even thaough I got through & 3 mates went down the road (all minor injuries thank goodness)

Peeps, our sport is fan bloody tastic. The amount of fun I've had over the last week has been second to none. It's a crying shame we've lost another rider, but if you boil it down, life is about risk MANAGEMENT, not risk AVOIDANCE.

Ride your own ride.

[Chrislost]

"The race" is never far away on any ride, be it 2 riders or 100 riders.
The trick is to ride to your own ability and not to be sucked into any shenanigans.
If you can't do that in a group ride situation then don't go along! Who said that?
Sure a quick route discussion an agreement that the front runners( ha what were we saying) will stop and wait at mjaor intersections and the ultimate destination unveilled are all accepted as common practice.
But to split groups into fast medium and slow is hypocracy at it's worst
Who is going to do that?


Its really pretty fkn easy...
first you get your kit on, then you start your bike... you with me?

then you like rev it once or twice, and put it into gear...

As your leaving the gassey you kind of ride how fast you want to go, and suddenly you find a bike or two! If they are riding at a speed your comfortable with tag along 50m behind them, if not slow down or pass them.
by the first pub you will have found your group...



More often than not, you will find groups of friends who ride together are making up a larger group and this is actully done for you...unless you ride with forum "professionalsss""

[caseye]

LOL oh nice one there Chrislost, it is simple.
My reference was to a so called ride organiser being in anyway capable of determining who should, could or would go in what groups.
I ride on the road with mates, newbies and expereinced riders. no armcharis involved, love it.

[idleidolidyll]

They're all about the race.

It's the truth (TM).

:wacko:

a 'race' is when two or more riders are determined to 'win', to beat the other riders.

people should be careful not to call quick riding 'racing' if neither party overtakes or tries to overtake the other.

2 or 3 riders going quickly in procession is not a race

[monkeymcbean]

[QUOTE]That in group rides people tend to become less risk averse than if they riding alone, there is less regard of the norms (less respect of the law), and an individual's responsibility is diluted throughout the group.

Interesting perspective, I get real watchful on group rides.

[Katman]

a 'race' is when two or more riders are determined to 'win', to beat the other riders.

people should be careful not to call quick riding 'racing' if neither party overtakes or tries to overtake the other.

2 or 3 riders going quickly in procession is not a race

There once was a story about three pigs................

[Squiggles]

There once was a story about three pigs................

And a wolf wasnt it? :Police:

[1wheel riot]

i agree its no fun when same one falls off. but some times shit gose wrong and thats just the sport lern from you mistaks.