Honda VS Suzuki $$$

[Finn]

Welcome to my first serious post.

Just having a look on the dotcom at new bikes and not that I would buy either of these bikes now (have owned an 05 CBR1000rr before) but there seems to be a massive difference in cost between their flagship models.

Suzuki GSX-R1000 is $21,000
Honda CBR1000RR is $27,000

What? While I would be prepared to pay a little bit more for Honda quality (:yes:) I wouldn't think that it's worth $6000 more.

Someone is missing the boat.

[Slyer]

http://kawasaki.co.nz/kawasaki_custom.cfm?modelcode=ZX1000E8F&do=list
Problem solved.

[Big Dave]

$2K of it is ABS.

[Mystic13]

And the R1 $24,000. I know which one I'd buy.

[Finn]

http://kawasaki.co.nz/kawasaki_custom.cfm?modelcode=ZX1000E8F&do=list
Problem solved.

Cost of professional repaint = $3500.00

[Finn]

$2K of it is ABS.

That's the non-ABS model. The ABS one is $29,450. This, according to their website.

[Slyer]

Cost of professional repaint = $3500.00
Get the black one.

[Big Dave]

That's the non-ABS model. The ABS one is $29,450. This, according to their website.

I was guessing.

[jafar]

http://kawasaki.co.nz/kawasaki_custom.cfm?modelcode=ZX1000E8F&do=list
Problem solved.

Tupperware litre bike :crybaby:
:Oops:

[SixPackBack]

Honda knows homo's have more disposable income:pinch:

[bungbung]

Honda knows homo's have more disposable income:pinch:

It's the strong pink dollar

[pzkpfw]

Tupperware litre bike :crybaby:
:Oops:

Sure they didn't mix up the photo of the 250?

[p.dath]

Sometimes it's easy to focus on what you get immediately and forget about everything your going to need. For example a higher price may reflect a vendor stocking spare parts in NZ or perhaps a better warranty.

[jafar]

Sure they didn't mix up the photo of the 250?

Who can tell?
Tupperware is tupperware :argh:

[YellowDog]

Welcome to my first serious post.

Just having a look on the dotcom at new bikes and not that I would buy either of these bikes now (have owned an 05 CBR1000rr before) but there seems to be a massive difference in cost between their flagship models.

Suzuki GSX-R1000 is $21,000
Honda CBR1000RR is $27,000

What? While I would be prepared to pay a little bit more for Honda quality (:yes:) I wouldn't think that it's worth $6000 more.

Someone is missing the boat.
Agreed that the Hondas are of a higher build quality however not $6k better.

Looks like a pricing error to me as the GSXR will pull some of Honda's loyal following at that price.

[Maha]

I heard a little while ago from a suzuki fan/rider that ''you'll probably find that GSXR's are owned by lower income owners''....maybe Suzuki realize this and compensate?

[jafar]

I heard a little while ago from a suzuki fan/rider that ''you'll probably find that GSXR's are owned by lower income owners''....maybe Suzuki realize this and compensate?

Hoondah is pricing itself off the market for muppets?:pinch:

Or is it that Spewzuki & Kwakasucki are dumping last years models on the market :Oops:

[White trash]

Hoondah is pricing itself off the market for muppets?:pinch:

Or is it that Spewzuki & Kwakasucki are dumping last years models on the market :Oops:
K9 Suzuki is actually a newer model than the Honda. Go figure.

[SPman]

:eek5::eek5::eek5:

K9 $19700 ride away
CBR1000 Repsol scheme $19,999-$21990 ride away. or $18990 in Tasmania.........

and we earn more here..........

although the roads are crapperer....

[Slyer]

:eek5::eek5::eek5:

K9 $19700 ride away
CBR1000 Repsol scheme $19,999-$21990 ride away. or $18990 in Tasmania.........
Yes... why is that?

[AllanB]

Honda NZ has been loading up prices this year - I even got a letter early this year telling me to trade in now as they will be having another price rise mid year (sounds like it has arrived).

Wise dealers got orders in early and held prices down (CB Predator as an example, started at $19 - up to $22 some places).

I am told one big advantage Suzuki has is there is no middle-man in NZ - it's pretty much factory direct with just a small NZ head office.

Honda has in many ways shot themselves - if I had the $ and was indeed interested in a new bike (naked of course) the Predator is right there with Ducati & Triumphs models offering tempting alternatives.

I look forward to updating my Hornet in a few years time with the glut of unsold Predators going dirt cheap at the remaining Honda dealers.

[p.dath]

Honda NZ has been loading up prices this year - I even got a letter early this year telling me to trade in now as they will be having another price rise mid year (sounds like it has arrived).

Wise dealers got orders in early and held prices down (CB Predator as an example, started at $19 - up to $22 some places).

I am told one big advantage Suzuki has is there is no middle-man in NZ - it's pretty much factory direct with just a small NZ head office.

Honda has in many ways shot themselves - if I had the $ and was indeed interested in a new bike (naked of course) the Predator is right there with Ducati & Triumphs models offering tempting alternatives.

I look forward to updating my Hornet in a few years time with the glut of unsold Predators going dirt cheap at the remaining Honda dealers.

The crap thing with that though is if you need parts you often have to wait for them to be flown into the country, as opposed to them arriving on the courier the next business day.

I've tried both models, and definately prefer local NZ distribution. The small saving you get with direct delaers is not worth everything that you loose after your purchase.

[cowpoos]

Sometimes it's easy to focus on what you get immediately and forget about everything your going to need. For example a higher price may reflect a vendor stocking spare parts in NZ or perhaps a better warranty.
NO!! <honda are shit aftermarket!!>

[Swoop]

The crap thing with that though is if you need parts you often have to wait for them to be flown into the country, as opposed to them arriving on the courier the next business day.
Quite a few companies do not hold stock in NZ anymore. Air freight overnight from Aus is very common.

[mynameis]

:lol: ten char

[merv]

While I like Hondas, I have never understood Blue Wing Honda and its marketing strategies. Those my age will remember how back in the 70's Honda took over from Suzuki as the sales leader for a few years and then slowly but surely Blue Wing Honda seemed to just let its advantage disappear. I had thought with the latest management there was a change for the better, but trying to sell with this price disadvantage is just plain ridiculous.

I don't understand why Honda don't just take back the importing and do it themselves through Honda NZ and do the old "price promise" thing they do with the cars http://www.honda.co.nz/site/opp/index.html. With no big market in fleet sales for bikes there is none of this competing with Toyota and its 28% discounts to fleet buyers that Honda Cars basically dealt to by not fighting in that market. With bikes it is much more straightforward.

[danchop]

The crap thing with that though is if you need parts you often have to wait for them to be flown into the country, as opposed to them arriving on the courier the next business day.

I've tried both models, and definately prefer local NZ distribution. The small saving you get with direct delaers is not worth everything that you loose after your purchase.
i think what he means is ,suzuki nz is owned by the big suzuki japan so they do anything to be market leader in sales

[geoffm]

Honda's silly pricing is why I have a SV dather than the VFR800 i nearly bought - $5k difference was to much.

IMO Triumph priceing is even more out there.

[SixPackBack]

Honda's silly pricing is why I have a SV dather than the VFR800 i nearly bought - $5k difference was to much.

IMO Triumph priceing is even more out there.

There is a discernible difference between Triumph/Ducati for instance and the Jap four, and unfortunately the jap bikes are so similar, price often becomes the deciding factor

[shafty]

Interesting discussion - I certainly saw some huge variation when I bought the ST1300 - I think Honda DO trade on their reputation for quality, and probably aren't so worried about being a sales leader rather than maintaining a healthy GP (Gross profit), after all, anyone can lead a sales race and lose $$

[Pwalo]

Suzuki also seem to have longer model runs than a lot of other manufacturers which probably keeps their costs down. Residuals are minimal.

GS500's, SV's, and Bandits are good examples of this.

[vifferman]

While I like Hondas, I have never understood Blue Wing Honda and its marketing strategies. ....

I don't understand why Honda don't just take back the importing and do it themselves through Honda NZ

Agreed.
I was rather pleasantly surprised yesterday when ordering bike parts, that they actually had 4 of the 6 items I ordered in stock! Normally, it's invariably, "Sorry - not in stock; three weeks ex-Japan. Please pay up front." The other pleasant surprise (probably a factor of the crap exchange rate) was that it was actually cheaper to buy locally than from the US. My parts were US$86, plus (at a minimum) ~$20 postage (via a friend) or US$76 direct from the dealer. (So that's a range of NZ$165 to $250) Locally, they were a total of $141.
In the past, the price discrepancies have been HUGE at times, like NZ prices (and delivery times) being 3 or 4 times bigger than obtaining via Interdweebland.

I don't know if it's true, but Blue Wing's policies and actions give the impression of arrogance and lack of care about customer service. Sadly, some Honda dealers seem to exhibit the same attitude. It's a shame that some of the dealers who've gone belly-up recently seemed to have great customer service ethics yet not the financial wherewithall to back it up. I hope this doesn't mean that only the arseholes survive in the current climate...

[BMWST?]

doesnt worry me...i wouldnt have a suzuki if you paid me.I can offer absolutely no sane reason for that attitude.

[SVboy]

I was recently lured back from the "green side" by Suzukis aggressive pricing, and a realistic trade in deal to boot. It helps that I like Suzukis and they seem to suit me, but it was the $$ and a Dealer that was prepared to work to get the sale that made it happen. I am afraid the Honda people were not even in the running price wise.

[Mystic13]

doesnt worry me...i wouldnt have a suzuki if you paid me.I can offer absolutely no sane reason for that attitude.

I would suggest crossing to the dark side and finding a Japanese bike you like and riding one for awhile. Apparently that answers all questions you might have.

[BMWST?]

I would suggest crossing to the dark side and finding a Japanese bike you like and riding one for awhile. Apparently that answers all questions you might have.

4 honda,4 yamaha,1 kawasaki,2 bmw and 1 ducati,gives me some perspective

[vgcspares]

Sometimes it's easy to focus on what you get immediately and forget about everything your going to need. For example a higher price may reflect a vendor stocking spare parts in NZ or perhaps a better warranty.

what he said - why do you naturally expect manufacturers to only complete on price and Suzuki have always focussed in price to keep market share

[MaxB]

This time last year I reckon it was Yamaha that was overpriced esp. the models I was looking at.

At 23k the FJR1300 was looking like a good buy but they threw on ABS and bumped the rrp to 30k. That put it into another part of the market.

That's the trouble with Honda today, bumping up their prices without offering anything extra. Suzuki and Kawasaki seem to offer the best bang for the buck atm at least for big bikes.

[sleeqe2000]

I'm looking at moving upto a 600 from a 250 in the next few weeks and Suzuki and Kawasaki are really the only options for me.

Would love to replace my Honda with another Honda but there is nothing that I can come close too other than second hand bikes pre 2000. Whereas I think I can get a decent SV or ER6 around 2005 for 6-7k.

[cowpoos]

I think Honda DO trade on their reputation for quality, and probably aren't so worried about being a sales leader rather than maintaining a healthy GP (Gross profit), after all, anyone can lead a sales race and lose $$

They going broke...exit F1...slow GP bike...probally ditch that too...got to make money out of their average product some how???!!?

[BevanPT]

Welcome to my first serious post.

Just having a look on the dotcom at new bikes and not that I would buy either of these bikes now (have owned an 05 CBR1000rr before) but there seems to be a massive difference in cost between their flagship models.

Suzuki GSX-R1000 is $21,000
Honda CBR1000RR is $27,000

What? While I would be prepared to pay a little bit more for Honda quality (:yes:) I wouldn't think that it's worth $6000 more.

Someone is missing the boat.

I hear ya Finn. I've been wanting to upgrade to a sports/tourer for quite some time now - lack of funds is why I haven't.

The two bikes I've been comparing are the Suzuki GSX750 and the Honda VFR800. Obvious differences between the two bikes aside I have seen the Suzuki retail for around $10k brand new and the Honda at $17k. I prefer the look of the VFR and it has slightly better technology but the price of the Suzuki has almost persuaded to me to go in that direction.

I think Suzuki brand's itself as a bike for the masses. Higher volume/supply at reasonable prices (certainly no problem with quality) and Honda is going for the lower supply (supply and demand) and perceived better quality.

My 2c worth.

[Gremlin]

I think part of the issue for Honda is that often the parts on their bike are made from better materials, higher quality etc, and over the list of parts for the bike, it starts getting expensive fast.

That said, Suzuki is waaaaay more expensive, since each rider buys at least 3 don't they? :rolleyes:

Yes, the Honda's are expensive, and the problem is, their bikes are entering different markets, which makes it difficult to compete, with essentially, a jap bike.

ie, the predator is what, 22k now? for 24k, I can get a KTM 990 Superduke or Supermoto, probably a Supermoto T as well... bit of a no brainer... Around that is the Speed Triple as well.

[Indiana_Jones]

Honda's silly pricing is why I have a SV dather than the VFR800 i nearly bought - $5k difference was to much.

IMO Triumph priceing is even more out there.

HONDA CBR600RR 2009 - $20,950

TRIUMPH DAYTONA 675 2009 - $17,990

HONDA CBR1000RR 2009 - $26,950

TRIUMPH SPEED TRIPLE 2009 - $19,990

Granted the latter two arn't in the same category.

-Indy

[crazyhorse]

The better bike is Suzuki..... go GSXR's!!!!!

[Kendog]

$17,500 for a K8 GSXR 1000 at Wellington Motorcycles.

That is a pretty damn good price.

[naphazoline]

People can say what they like about hondas,but no one seems to have told fitzgerald and sherrifs.:first:

They were very impressive at Manfield last weekend.A hell of a lot of clear air between them and the rest of the field in the race i saw.

[bane]

HONDA CBR600RR 2009 - $20,950

TRIUMPH DAYTONA 675 2009 - $17,990

HONDA CBR1000RR 2009 - $26,950

TRIUMPH SPEED TRIPLE 2009 - $19,990

Granted the latter two arn't in the same category.

-Indy

agree Indy. The 675 looks awesome value now (at least until you see that Suzuki are flogging off k9 GSXR750's for $15995).

Triumph has the advantage that the $NZ vs pound has stayed pretty consistent, as opposed to dropping upto 40% in value against yen.

[AllanB]

People can say what they like about hondas.

Absolutely nothing wrong with them (I own one) they have built and will continue to build some of the worlds best bikes. Anyone who owns a modern IL4 can trace it back to Hondas first 750/4. (yes there were others before but none that had the global impact of the 69 Honda).

It's a perception that the Jap bike should be cheaper - no real reason other than the exceptional value they have offered us in the past. I suspect Suzuki and the rests prices will creep up soon.

[cowpoos]

People can say what they like about hondas,but no one seems to have told fitzgerald and sherrifs.:first:

They were very impressive at Manfield last weekend.A hell of a lot of clear air between them and the rest of the field in the race i saw.
about the only place they can get wins on those smoke producing weak shit engines...remind me where they came at national level again??


oh and behind what brands?? [who's engines didn't self distruct and piss out smoke??]

[SixPackBack]

People can say what they like about hondas,but no one seems to have told fitzgerald and sherrifs.:first:

They were very impressive at Manfield last weekend.A hell of a lot of clear air between them and the rest of the field in the race i saw.

Are they the same shitters that consume more oil than petrol

[dipshit]

Are they the same shitters that consume more oil than petrol

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=121042&d=1235850034

That would be the ones. Honda quality... :rofl:

[Slyer]

$17,500 for a K8 GSXR 1000 at Wellington Motorcycles.

That is a pretty damn good price.
Purchase cost isn't the only cost.
I hear getting new limbs ain't cheap.

[Indiana_Jones]

Granted people understand prices creep up (inflation and all that etc), but to bump the price up as large amount and so quickly isn't very smart if the competition arn't.

I'm sure they must have a pretty good reason for doing so, they just can't be greedy?

....can they? lol

-Indy

[Fatjim]

They still pricing based on 50c to the dollar?

[discotex]

slow GP bike

The record of 349km/h set recently by Pedrosa would say the bike isn't slow at all.

[naphazoline]

about the only place they can get wins on those smoke producing weak shit engines...remind me where they came at national level again??


oh and behind what brands?? [who's engines didn't self distruct and piss out smoke??]


Are they the same shitters that consume more oil than petrol


http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=121042&d=1235850034

That would be the ones. Honda quality... :rofl:

Aaawwwww....Poor suzuki :crybaby:

Seems to be fading to me.

Where they been getting in Moto GP,world superbikes?(Looks like they like it in the rear)

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[SixPackBack]

Aaawwwww....Poor suzuki :crybaby:

Seems to be fading to me.

Where they been getting in Moto GP,world superbikes?(Looks like they like it in the rear)

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Fading? K6 thou at 70K going strong, never uses a drop of oil.

Moto GP and WSBK has no connection to our reality. It's all about the riders.

[naphazoline]

The people i've talked to who own new blades,have said that oil usage isn't an issue.
But i guess it's a case of "find something wrong with one and run with that".

I've had both brands,and like both.
I'm not prepared to say one is better then the other.
And besides,how many exploit a bikes full potential on the streets?

But i do find some of the attitudes towards the different brands pretty pathetic.:stupid:

If it makes the Suzuki owners feel bigger or better or more important to be number one, they got some serious insecurity issues.:jerry::jerry:

[SixPackBack]

The people i've talked to who own new blades,have said that oil usage isn't an issue.
But i guess it's a case of "find something wrong with one and run with that".

I've had both brands,and like both.
I'm not prepared to say one is better then the other.
And besides,how many exploit a bikes full potential on the streets?

But i do find some of the attitudes towards the different brands pretty pathetic.:stupid:

If it makes the Suzuki owners feel bigger or better or more important to be number one, they got some serious insecurity issues.:jerry::jerry:

Personally I am not that loyal. The 08 CBR1000 looks like a logical successor to my K6 [in my eyes], and I would plan to own one if not for the very real oil usage issue.

Check out the Honda and CBR forums and you will find threads running over 500 pages each with literally hundreds if not thousands of owners complaining of oil use. The problem is very real and very large, I bring it up not because of a desire to slag the brand but in frustration that it stops me from purchasing.

[DMNTD]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS]... and unfortunately the jap bikes are so similar, price often becomes the deciding factor

...except for the '09 Yamaha R1 :shifty:
Finally a Jap inline with 'personality' :Punk:

[naphazoline]

Personally I am not that loyal. The 08 CBR1000 looks like a logical successor to my K6 [in my eyes], and I would plan to own one if not for the very real oil usage issue.

Check out the Honda and CBR forums and you will find threads running over 500 pages each with literally hundreds if not thousands of owners complaining of oil use. The problem is very real and very large, I bring it up not because of a desire to slag the brand but in frustration that it stops me from purchasing.



Fair answer.

Just wonder why it (oil issue) affects some and not others?

[Elysium]

Fair answer.

Just wonder why it (oil issue) affects some and not others?

Kinda like the SV1000s were known to sometimes have a knocking sound coming from the crank case, Suzuki Bitain found the problem an fixed it freewhile te yanks did not. The V-STROMMs did not have this problem even though same engine. The GSXR..,K6 was it?, had major weld issues I understand.

Every bike seems to have a major fault somewhere that the companies eventauly recify, even if they wont admit there is a problem.

[naphazoline]

...except for the '09 Yamaha R1 :shifty:
Finally a Jap inline with 'personality' :Punk:

This is one new bike that seriously interests me.(Specially that engine note.):drool::drool:

You've owned this bike for a while now,and should be over the "WOW" factor...What,if any,floors/bad points would you say it has? ( Try to be unbias )

I've read a lot of journo reviews on some of the latest bikes,but it seems to me,that they just tell about the highs,and not the lows.

Comfort is a bit of a factor for me,as i'm only 5' 7/8".That's why i didn't get a Gixxer thou,cause i found them a bit too much of a reach for road usage.

[merv]

Fair answer.

Just wonder why it (oil issue) affects some and not others?

Yeah wonder what's up here, last year we were debating oil use of KLR650 adventure bikes. Did the Japs get their rings from a bad supplier last year or something?

[Drew]

...except for the '09 Yamaha R1 :shifty:
Finally a Jap inline with 'personality' :Punk:

Noise does not equal personality bro. IdolhomoIdyl makes loads of noise, and has the personality of a cardboard box.

About the build quality argument in favour of the Honda. Sure, the plastics are a better finish, but I believe it stops there. The engines on the Hondas, (quite a few different models too), start to smoke if ya give them a hard time. Dunno about the rest of ya, but the fact that Gixxers seem to go better if ya thrash the arse of 'em from day one, tells me it's of higher quality when it comes to engineering.

[dipshit]

About the build quality argument in favour of the Honda. Sure, the plastics are a better finish, but I believe it stops there. The engines on the Hondas, (quite a few different models too), start to smoke if ya give them a hard time.

This is exactly my view of it too. Particularly as i got into motorcycling in the mid-80s with VF1000 that developed oil burning problems if ridden hard.. not to mention the VF750's of the time!

Hondas have always rated the lowest in quality amongst the jap 4 in my books. I truly think WTF..!?!? whenever i hear some journalist or someone wanking on about Honda quality.

[cowpoos]

Yeah wonder what's up here, last year we were debating oil use of KLR650 adventure bikes. Did the Japs get their rings from a bad supplier last year or something?
its more likely to be oil coming down the valve stems merv...

[Drew]

its more likely to be oil coming down the valve stems merv...

Perhaps on the bike he refers to, but the quantity of smoke coming from two rather prominant racers CBR thou's this year, was surely coming up past the rings. Or the valve stem seals had fallen out completely.

[cowpoos]

Perhaps on the bike he refers to, but the quantity of smoke coming from two rather prominant racers CBR thou's this year, was surely coming up past the rings. Or the valve stem seals had fallen out completely.
it could be from rings...but with modern bore hooning being so acurate and cyclinder wall coatings...modern rings being so accurate also...

where as...steep included valve angles...with high vacuum on the inlet side and oil pressure in the head...at high revs the oil would probally rather travel down the valves I would have thought????

[merv]

its more likely to be oil coming down the valve stems merv...


Sharpen up and keep up with our stories mate, it was rings on the KLR http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=90799

As for the new CBR that's not one I've looked into. Valve stem seals could be a possibility for sure, but more than likely rings if you believe the running in stories.

Maybe as you'd expect, the guys that ride like Drew outta the box have had no issues http://cbrforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88741 haha.

To quote from that forum "The guys with no issue swear they beat the piss out of it from day one." I note the forums seem to be talking about the old 2008's more than the newer 2009's.

Did Craig treat his too much like a pussy then?

[Pussy]

but with modern bore hooning being so acurate

EXCEPT the '08 'Blade......

[AllanB]

The only oil burner I've owned was a Suzuki. :shutup:

There was a issue with 2001/02 Bandit 1200's that Suzuki never really admitted to.

08 Blade - I heard it was a issue with some batches of the rings.

K series BMW's smoked on start-up from oil coming into the cylinder from the valve guides when on the side stand.

I've an English magazine here that killed their long term Triumph Tiger by not checking the oil for 3-4000 kms and it ran dry.........

And those bloody 2-stroke Kawasaki's pissed out smoke.........<_<

I wonder how the makers test their engines for real world release - do they baby them through a run-in or get on and give em heaps.

I'd buy pretty much any of the big brands if I really wanted the bike - like 6-Pack I'd research any issues first and wait until they were sorted.

[BMWST?]

k bikes didnt have valve guide seal problems it was residual oil seeping past the rings when bike was on side stand,if it was seals it would have happened side stand or not.
The only bike i had that had oil burning issues was a kawasaki z1000j

[DMNTD]

Noise does not equal personality bro.
Ahhhh...so much more than noise IMO man. The power delivery for one in 'real world' riding is superb. Finally an inline that has some torque....some feeeeeel and not just a screamer. I have found mine much easier (more effortless) to ride on the road.
Don't get me wrong...I have truly enjoyed my 'old' inline for what they were, but this particular inline has something 'extra'...IMO.
But did I mention the noise?




This is one new bike that seriously interests me.(Specially that engine note.):drool::drool:

You've owned this bike for a while now,and should be over the "WOW" factor...What,if any,floors/bad points would you say it has? ( Try to be unbias )

I've read a lot of journo reviews on some of the latest bikes,but it seems to me,that they just tell about the highs,and not the lows.

Comfort is a bit of a factor for me,as i'm only 5' 7/8".That's why i didn't get a Gixxer thou,cause i found them a bit too much of a reach for road usage.
As above plus plus plus...and it has nothing (genuinely) to do with the fact that I sell them for a living...serious.
Re the physical size thing: I've had several people trial our demo who would be about your height and have yet to have a complaint. In saying that it's a personal thing so I suggest that you demo one at your nearest dealership to make your own conclusions.