Learning to weld?

[XP@]

Hi,

I've got a few projects on the go and would like to learn how to weld. Mostly it is bike related so light stuff. If I can then I would like to keep the option of sticking Aluminium together.

Any suggestions on a shopping list?
Are there any courses / people that can teach (levin to wellington)

Cheers

[quallman1234]

Go do the Mig/Tig course at polytech in petone. Once a week from 5:30 - 8:30. Well worth it and its only like 300$. Your learn all you need for stuff you just said.

[slowpoke]

Go do the Mig/Tig course at polytech in petone. Once a week from 5:30 - 8:30. Well worth it and its only like 300$. Your learn all you need for stuff you just said.

Aaaaargh! NOW ya tell me! I've just carrried out a rebuild/upgrade of my trailer and it looks like a flock of seagulls has perched on the framework before it was painted over......

[quickbuck]

Go do the Mig/Tig course at polytech in petone. Once a week from 5:30 - 8:30. Well worth it and its only like 300$. Your learn all you need for stuff you just said.


What he said.....
Best to do a course. Some people can show you, but it is a bit like teaching your mate to ride a bike...
May have been doing it for years, but forgot about the crucial thing that comes naturally....
Welding can have disastrous consequences... in the future!

[F5 Dave]

The problem is the gear. Arc welders are cheap but only good for trailers. Migs are good for home handymen, but quality starts at dreadful (like my setup) to quite expensive. Ally welding really requires a Tig & that's where the coin starts to get serious. More than 'a few projects'. A crappy archaic Tig in talented hands can sometimes approach acceptable welds if you don't have to look at them. The rest of us don't have a chance.

[Ocean1]

Go do the Mig/Tig course at polytech in petone.


Aaaaargh! NOW ya tell me!


What he said....

+3 for Weltec. See:http://www.weltec.ac.nz/SubjectAreas/EngineeringandElectricalTrades/Programmes/MIGTIGWelding/tabid/460/Default.aspx

PM me if you want contact details.


The problem is the gear. Arc welders are cheap but only good for trailers. Migs are good for home handymen, but quality starts at dreadful (like my setup) to quite expensive. Ally welding really requires a Tig & that's where the coin starts to get serious. More than 'a few projects'. A crappy archaic Tig in talented hands can sometimes approach acceptable welds if you don't have to look at them. The rest of us don't have a chance.

Yup, a craftsman can produce reasonable results with most gear, us mortals need to use the right tool.

Stick welders are OK for most work down to about 3mm, less if you’re good.

MIGs are a production tool, fast and effective but difficult to get pretty.

TIGs are the real do-it-all tool, not a quick process but very much more controllable, and easier to learn to the stage where you can get reasonable results. Argon ain’t cheap though.

So, depends on what you want to do and what you want to spend.

[I'll C U Jimmy]

If you are going to lash out the coin and want to retain the aluminium option, be careful to get a Tig welder than you can switch to AC as well as DC. You need the AC for aluminium. Ive got a mate who is a welding rep, I'll do a bit of research for ya on any alternatives.

[tigertim20]

Hey, welding is easy as long as you dont rush yourself. plenty of books out there, the most important thing is PRACTICE. just weld heaps of scrap bits together, then try to break it, or cut it in half and check your fusion. Polytech can be a way to go if you wanna spend money, but truth is, welding isn't an art form, its a technique, and a piece of piss to learn! And once you learn to weld, well the opportunities for projects are endless

[quallman1234]

Weldings not particularly hard once you get the hang off it. Its all about setup and prep at the end of the day.

[Ixion]

Oxy-acetylene FTW.

[erik]

Oxy-acetylene FTW.
What is the deal with getting the gas, do you have to hire the bottles? Is it something you can have sitting around for occasional use?
I've only got a cheap arc welder and a MAPP torch for durafix and brazing.

[Motu]

Getting set up with bottles is serious coin,even if you have bottles.BOC lock you in on an account....no big deal if you are a business,but as a handy man it's ridiculous.Other gas suppliers let you hire bottles for a deposit,and it's not cheap.With my welders it'll cost me about $1500 buts to get set up again.I have my own oxy and acet bottles - but they are dated 1992,so probably won't past a retest....so will have to pay the deposit.I am really annoyed,and restricted after so many years of free gas.

[geoffm]

Getting set up with bottles is serious coin,even if you have bottles.BOC lock you in on an account....no big deal if you are a business,but as a handy man it's ridiculous.Other gas suppliers let you hire bottles for a deposit,and it's not cheap.With my welders it'll cost me about $1500 buts to get set up again.I have my own oxy and acet bottles - but they are dated 1992,so probably won't past a retest....so will have to pay the deposit.I am really annoyed,and restricted after so many years of free gas.

Supagas in Manukau and Hamilton can test and refill oxy, argon and acetylene bottles. Owner bottle shave saved me $000 over the years.
Geoff

[Motu]

My acet is the old handyman type,no longer in use,no replacement.Both are dated 1992,I doubt they will pass.So then I will have to pay the deposit for Supergas bottles.I've check it all out,have the Supergas pricelist,there is no cheap way for me.I can do welding at work,but my own gear is far superior.

[Ixion]

Didn't cost me anything to set up the BOC account. Just hire on the bottles (about $25 a month for the two now ), and fill charges. No deposits or anything, just the inital three months hire in advance and the initial fill.

Years ago I had my own bottles but I lost them along them along the line. And the hassle was scarely worth it.

$25 a month isn't too bad for all the advantages of gas. Y' can do almost anything with gas - sheetmetal work, heavy sections, cast iron, brazing, aluminium, stainless steel. And heating , cutting all sorts of other uses.

I reckon the two indispensable tools in the workshop are the gas axe and the BLOODY HEAVY HAMMER. And the word judicious.

[geoffm]

My acet is the old handyman type,no longer in use,no replacement.Both are dated 1992,I doubt they will pass.So then I will have to pay the deposit for Supergas bottles.I've check it all out,have the Supergas pricelist,there is no cheap way for me.I can do welding at work,but my own gear is far superior.

Eastside (Or Bayside?) cylinder testing do high pressure bottle tests - Supagas get them done there,and do the acetylene ones themselves. There may be other companies in Auckland that can do the high pressure cylinders.
If they fail, there is usually no charge. Most of mine came from a scrapyard and/or were CO2 extinguisher bodies with new valves fitted- about half failed but no charge. Worth talkign to them anyway.
The bottles should pass - one of my bottles was dated in the 1950s and still passed test. Acetylene in particular, since it is low pressure (<15psi) rarely fail. I have oxygen ones fail for oxy service, but they have been ok for Argon or argon/CO2 mix( (Mig gas).
The other one is that you can use CO2 with MIG on steel - it is messier, and not as good on thin stuff, but CO2 cylinders come up from time to time in trademe and "machinery and marine"(??) just before Te Rapa just out of Hamilton get gas cylinders form time to time. Refills are cheap as well. Some CO2 cylinders can be converted to other gases by changing the valve - one of my argon bottles started life as a CO2 extinguisher cylinder IIRC and I got it tested and it was ok for oxy use and the vavle changed. It depends on the test standard of the cylinder.
Since I got the plasma cutter and a decent TIG welder (and a LPG blowtorch), i haven't used the oxy set for ages, other than some demolition work. IMO, a AC/DC/Pulse tig welder and 40A plasma is better for most of us than oxy - since you only need one bottle and it is more versatile.
Geoff

[Motu]

The guy in Horotiu wants $300 for an untested bottle - for someone who is picky about free stuff,that's too much.For what use you get out of a gas plant these days it's not really worth it...but I have a Henrob torch which are pretty damn good for oxy/acet.I'd rather get my MIG going....CO2 is ''ok'',but it's annoying when you know you can produce a better weld.But far better than gassles.

[Ixion]

I got a Henrob. Really good. Cost a bundle but worth it. I still reckon gas is more versatile than electric. Having said that I've not tried AC/DC TIG gear. Is the pulse option worth having ? Does it make a difference ? You can weld easy on dirty or rusty steel, no prep required. And you can fill holes as you go. It's really good for when you need to weld rusty steel, with some holes and other areas where the steel is eaten away and very thin. Electric just blows a hole in it and is real hard to build up. Whereas gas you don't have to derust or descale (which saves hours and hours sometimes). And you can fill the holes with rod and wash a layer over the thin spots. No way electric can do that. Or braze. I braze more than I weld.

[SixPackBack]

..................................

MIGs are a production tool, fast and effective but difficult to get pretty.
...............................

Not true at all. For welding steel fabrication/s a MIG welder is the standard.

MIG welders are the easiest welder to set-up, and the fastest to learn. Welding down to 1.5mm thick is easy and reliable, welding up to 'X' thickness is a no brainer. Unlike stick welding slag inclusion does not exist [unless using speciality core fluxed wire]. Gaining the experience wleder to use a MIG rarely takes more than a few hours, I have trained apprentices and seen them lay a decent weld within minutes. Some knowledge of setting up the welding unit is needed, but this information would quickly reveal itself with google. Stick or arc welders are so yesterday-we never use ours!

[TLDV8]

Hey, welding is easy as long as you dont rush yourself. plenty of books out there, the most important thing is PRACTICE. just weld heaps of scrap bits together, then try to break it, or cut it in half and check your fusion. Polytech can be a way to go if you wanna spend money, but truth is, welding isn't an art form, its a technique, and a piece of piss to learn! And once you learn to weld, well the opportunities for projects are endless

Practice has little point if you do not know what you should be actually practicing. :laugh:

<img src=http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/manurewa/Darwin/P1.jpg>

[Ixion]

Not true at all. For welding steel fabrication/s a MIG welder is the standard.

MIG welders are the easiest welder to set-up, and the fastest to learn. Welding down to 1.5mm thick is easy and reliable, welding up to 'X' thickness is a no brainer. Unlike stick welding slag inclusion does not exist [unless using speciality core fluxed wire]. Gaining the experience wleder to use a MIG rarely takes more than a few hours, I have trained apprentices and seen them lay a decent weld within minutes. Some knowledge of setting up the welding unit is needed, but this information would quickly reveal itself with google. Stick or arc welders are so yesterday-we never use ours!






What d' y' reckon on MIG versus TIG ?

TIG is pricier but seems more versatile. But I dunno if that's just because TIG gear is (until very recently) MUCH more expensive and more industrial grade.

I can stick weld, in a fashion, but it always seems so much harder , and the results less satisfactory than gas. For light section work, anyway. And for a home workshop, heavy section electric welding isn't a starter cos of single phase power.

[Ocean1]

Not true at all. For welding steel fabrication/s a MIG welder is the standard.

So I'm slow.

I use the lot, dude. MIG is my wepon of choice for general steel fabrication. I've layed kilometers of MIG bead on jobs where speed and minimising heat input and distortion is critical.

Outside that; I can produce better results with a TIG, and I can do it over a far wider range of materials. Like I said, the right tool for the job...

[Ocean1]

What d' y' reckon on MIG versus TIG ?

If you've got a good feel for a gas torch you'll like TIG work, very similar technique. And yes, a modern TIG system is flat out the most versatile welding system available.

[SixPackBack]

What d' y' reckon on MIG versus TIG ?

TIG is pricier but seems more versatile. But I dunno if that's just because TIG gear is (until very recently) MUCH more expensive and more industrial grade.

I can stick weld, in a fashion, but it always seems so much harder , and the results less satisfactory than gas. For light section work, anyway. And for a home workshop, heavy section electric welding isn't a starter cos of single phase power.




So I'm slow.

I use the lot, dude. MIG is my wepon of choice for general steel fabrication. I've layed kilometers of MIG bead on jobs where speed and minimising heat input and distortion is critical.

Outside that; I can product better results with a TIG, and I can do it over a far wider range of materials. Like I said, the right tool for the job...

Ocean1, I was comparing MIG to stick for the average punter welding his trailer. Yes TIG will give super neat welds and an experienced operator can produce superlative results, but the gear is very expensive and more difficult to set-up; additionally TIG operation takes a great deal more experience to master.

[tigertim20]

Practice has little point if you do not know what you should be actually practicing. :laugh:

<img src=http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/manurewa/Darwin/P1.jpg>

read what youve quoted again, youll see I mentioned books before I mentioned practicing. Thats just common sense.

[tigertim20]

If you've got a good feel for a gas torch you'll like TIG work, very similar technique. And yes, a modern TIG system is flat out the most versatile welding system available.

But considerably more difficult to learn, let alone master for an absolute beginner. But as someone else said, the right tool for the job. Joe average home handyman is seldom going to have a call for more than a basic mig.
But I do like tig, versatile as. I didnt get a chance to do as much tig work as I wouldve liked when I was at the engineering firm, the boss liked you to just mig stuff cos it was quick, and piss easy to get nice tidy welds for most of the jobs we did.

[TLDV8]

read what youve quoted again, youll see I mentioned books before I mentioned practicing. Thats just common sense.

First you need to go and edit that picture out of your quote unless you want to get a warning from the numpty mods.
You will learn jack shit from a book so you would then be practicing jack shit.
There is no substitute for hands on teaching to get a solid foundation.


<img src=http://www.adrenalinimages.com/LVCUP_01092003/images/prevs/prev5.jpg>

[gatch]

You will learn jack shit from a book so you would then be practicing jack shit.
There is no substitute for hands on teaching to get a solid foundation.


+1

If you can't interpret what the book says you are still in the same boat, best way to learn is with someone who knows what they are doing and practise practise practise.

Just been at Ucol in palmy doing my 3rd year block course (fitting turning). One of the units was on ally and s/s welding. Pulse mig on ally was hilarious. Didn't have time to go through the pulse tig setup though.

The worst bit about the whole deal was when one of my funny guy course mates stuck a thoriated tungsten in my torch just before i plowed into some 6mm ally.. wanker..

In reply to the original post though, I'm pretty sure UCOL offers a night course learning tig welding..

I reckon for the home handy man a gas set is the most versatile, followed by a little inverter arc (you can hook up a tig torch and gas bottle for welding most kinds of steel) set up. There is not much that you cant accomplish with these 2 weapons, mig is good for production but obviously is expensive and not mobile. Tig lays the neatest welds but takes the most practise. I'd love a little tig for home, but an AC machine is also not cheap.. Do'h

[tigertim20]

You will learn jack shit from a book so you would then be practicing jack shit.
There is no substitute for hands on teaching to get a solid foundation.

*Sigh* since you insist on being so pedantic I will spell it out slowly for you.
I was pointing out that you need to find a learning source. Books were just one example. (I also mentioned polytech as another source which would provide guided practical experience) I then said that practical experience and practice was the best thing. there, understand now?

[geoffm]

I got a Henrob. Really good. Cost a bundle but worth it. I still reckon gas is more versatile than electric. Having said that I've not tried AC/DC TIG gear. Is the pulse option worth having ? Does it make a difference ? You can weld easy on dirty or rusty steel, no prep required. And you can fill holes as you go. It's really good for when you need to weld rusty steel, with some holes and other areas where the steel is eaten away and very thin. Electric just blows a hole in it and is real hard to build up. Whereas gas you don't have to derust or descale (which saves hours and hours sometimes). And you can fill the holes with rod and wash a layer over the thin spots. No way electric can do that. Or braze. I braze more than I weld.

I have a henrob too - I haven't used it much since I got the 30+ year old Tigmaster 250 - for free :woohoo:
I prefer my little Meco aviation torch for small gas welding jobs rather than the Henrob, which is more cumbersome, and I never liked the Henrob cutting torch. The standard Comet 3 IMO is much better for cutting.

Gas was handy when I was racing - welded up a few engine cases, etc at the track... If you are doing ali, a set of blue glasses makes it a lot easier as it takes out the sodium flare from the flux. Well worth $10-15 that they cost. Use ali welding flux and tig ali rods. I have a video on welding ali with gas if anyone wants to borrow it or i will put it up on rapidshare.

I find tig on ali (and everything else) is much easier than gas, with much better control. You can put the heat where you want it a lot more easily and with less heat affected zone.

You can braze with tig - it uses different rods from gas as there is no zinc in them IIRC. Easy peasy. Run 2/3 the amps of welding so is good for thin stuff.

Pulse is worth having for any thin steel, especially stainless as there is less heat in it and less chance of blowing through the steel. It makes those pretty ripple finish welds easy too. It is worth paying a bit more for.

The tig we had in the lab at uni was a Kempi and cost $6k. It was nice to use - noticeably better and easier to use than my old gear, and priced accordingly. There are a number on the market now (finest Chinese - but so are most of the major brands) with more features for $2500, some with a plasma cutter as well At that price, they are getting towards the serious home handyman range.
You can stick weld with a Tig set.
Geoff

[TLDV8]

*Sigh* since you insist on being so pedantic I will spell it out slowly for you.
I was pointing out that you need to find a learning source. Books were just one example. (I also mentioned polytech as another source which would provide guided practical experience) I then said that practical experience and practice was the best thing. there, understand now?

Are you related to Robert Taylor ? :laugh:

Reread what you wrote.
It shows you are not a welder.


IMD , I am not showing off with the pictures :laugh: but after 30+ years on the tools you should have learned something.
I regard welding no different to machining,i taught myself how to use a mill and lathe,what took me years to find out,a toolmaker or turner could have shown me in a fraction of that and to a higher standard.
No different now,an actual course would teach me things i wouldn't even think of. ?????

I remember around 1985 on the Wiri oil storage terminal tank job (Akld) which PDM Johns/Perry had come over from Australia to run.
Vertical up had a fairly standard pattern,one of the boss's was an old guy by the name of Charlie.
One day he asks me if he can show me another technique.
He showed me while i watched and asked questions what i still use today,closer pack and much faster and always clean there is always something to learn.
I have never had a cut out, only because of how i was taught hands on.

For home use a MIG is probably the easiest and most versatile,personally i use my Lincoln Invertec V200T.
A small MIG would have been handy all the same.

At the end of the day you are only as good as the foundation.
Once you have that solid foundation,other forms of welding are easily within reach even if only for at home projects.