Rider error - Now the highest ACC claims stat

[Genestho]

Hey guys.

The only reason I post this, is not to be righteous, or a mouthpiece, it's
because;

A) I know Motorcycling Fatalities rip families apart.
B) I love Motorcycling, the sport, the freedom, the smells, the scenery and adrenaline.

I attended an impromptu meeting with my local Road Safety group this morning. Don't shoot the messenger.

Acc bought along the latest Motorcycling Stats, with the emergance of Rider Error in Motorcycling stats as the highest ACC claim.

Some other notes I took on Rider Error were:

Motorcyclists suffer 10x more "Trauma" (injury) than other Road Users
The highest "Trauma" group is 15-19, above "Born agains"
The area that suffers the most Motorcyclist Trauma (Injury) is Taupo, with Easter BOP coming in close behind.
It's predominantly a male issue
Riders of Italian Bikes were mostly at fault in crashes...
Maori Riders caused the most crashes ethnicity wise
49% were fully licensed
Daytime was when the most crashes happened, with winter being the lowest crash rate. Weekends including Fridays were the most frequent.
The campaign last year was "Look out for Motorcyclist's" this year I can see it will be:

Educating youth Motorcycling Handling, with possibly school programs (In WBOP anyway) and positive re enforcement of good safety gear

Group Ride Safety Education!

And I'd say in general a campaign aimed at Motorcyclists to "look out for themselves" Perhaps publicity around ie; countersteering when taking corners too fast, target fixation (there's another name that was used) and other issues faced on the roads concerning rider error.

Because there is a perception that most accidents are caused by other vehicles, I have asked for definition of "Rider Error" stats, so motorcyclists can see for themselves, this particular stat broken down, and learn.

I advised from a grassroot level, there is dubious belief in the stats, even from myself, I'd like to know how each category is collected and labelled. Defined. Discussed was poor handling, speed and poor observation.

Stay Safe!

[dino3310]

Hey guys.

The only reason I post this, is not to be righteous, or a mouthpiece, it's
because;


Stay Safe!

good on ya mate.

living in hams i see a lot of young ones with no safty gear bar helmet, riding like bats out of hell around shopping centres/ te rapa and such, farkin crazy and im talkin jandals T shirts. gonna be scary when some of these clowns get there full licence.
a scooter like a nifty fifty or simular made my day this mornin - full faced arai, technic jacket & pants, touring boots, gloves, lights on with a high viz vest no lane splitting or bus lanes he just stayed with the flow. looked hard case on a moped with all the gears on but farkin GOOD ON HIM:2thumbsup

[shafty]

Thanks TGW, your comment re Italian riders - I presume meaning riders of Italian bikes? Cheers :)

[Genestho]

good on ya mate.

living in hams i see a lot of young ones with no safty gear bar helmet, riding like bats out of hell around shopping centres/ te rapa and such, farkin crazy and im talkin jandals T shirts. gonna be scary when some of these clowns get there full licence.
a scooter like a nifty fifty or simular made my day this mornin - full faced arai, technic jacket & pants, touring boots, gloves, lights on with a high viz vest no lane splitting or bus lanes he just stayed with the flow. looked hard case on a moped with all the gears on but farkin GOOD ON HIM:2thumbsup

Yeah the lack of safety gear was a particular concern today!

[Genestho]

Thanks TGW, your comment re Italian riders - I presume meaning riders of Italian bikes? Cheers :)

hehe! yep, ta!

[Finn]

Acc bought along the latest Motorcycling Stats...

Stop there. You had my attention until then.

Take every Government report / finding with a grain of salt. Most of ACC staff don't even know what ACC stands for or even how to spell it.

[Genestho]

Stop there. You had my attention until then.

Take every Government report / finding with a grain of salt. Most of ACC staff don't even know what ACC stands for or even how to spell it.

I have to admit there did appear to be some issues around the explanation of the document!

I too am dubious, but I'd like to see things defined!

[shafty]

Thanks; I'm quite suprised re the Maori aspect, ie causing accidents - did they elaborate on that? Stats can be misleading, but this is of real interest - facts not hunches...

[p.dath]

Wish I could have attended this. Was there a web site for these stats?

[Genestho]

Thanks; I'm quite suprised re the Maori aspect, ie causing accidents - did they elaborate on that? Stats can be misleading, but this is of real interest - facts not hunches...
Yea exactly!!! I was called last night, and said I wanted to get there, because I'm totally interested!

[Genestho]

Wish I could have attended this. Was there a web site for these stats?

No, presented between two hard copy documents! One being a crash analaysis preperation document from what I could make out.

I can get one of the documents emailed, but not sure if I'd be allowed to publish at this point! Could always ask!

[Genestho]

And to be quite honest, if there were a few groups represented in ACC from the Motorcycling community, the views would be welcomed! Not everything could be actioned, it was said, too many voices would be "noise" but views would be taken onboard! I understand Ulysess are onboard!

There may have been something similar in Auckland..but I was under the impression that this was the only nationwide (at this point) meeting from interested parties with a passion for Motorcycling, and reduction of accidents due to Rider Error!

[Ragingrob]

Yeah, stats from the govt... Haha always wanna be taken with caution, it isn't hard to make numbers look worse than they are!

I wouldn't be surprised if they were just basing it all on figures and not even percentages either.

[Genestho]

Something else I just thought of....it was asked what porportion of crashes, in the stats involved off road and quad bikes. Couldn't get a number, but it was said they're mostly made up of "On Road" crashes.

[Genestho]

Yeah, stats from the govt... Haha always wanna be taken with caution, it isn't hard to make numbers look worse than they are!

I wouldn't be surprised if they were just basing it all on figures and not even percentages either.

Any stats can be manipulated, that's why from a grassroots level, I requested a break down and definition

[Devil]

I for one welcome "rider error" as being pointed out as the top reason as opposed to speed. Education is a good direction to head in.

[xwhatsit]

Motorcyclists suffer 10x more "Trauma" (injury) than other Road Users
That's a lot less than I thought! Considering the sort of riding you see.

[YellowDog]

Good post TGW and some interested reading.

My experience of stats is that they are always presented in way to reinforce the sponsors point.

I am sure that some good can com from this.

It is illegal to ride a motorcycle without a protective helmet. May be this law can be enhanced to prevent ACC draining injuries. Kids on scooters wearing shorts & T-shirt should be illegal. It is not.

I haven't found Maori drivers to be particularly bad. If they had stated Asian women, then I would have been nodding in agreement.

IMO - Higher standards and better education for all road users is the best way to reduce such statistics.

[BMWST?]

Motorcyclists suffer 10x more "Trauma" (injury) than other Road Users

Discussed was poor handling, speed and poor observation.

Stay Safe!

10 times.....How do they figure that out?If a moped rider without a license is injured is he a car driver(car license) or a motorcyclist?

poor observation???on the part of the m cyclist or the other dude?.Didnt the motorcyclist see the car pulling out in front of him??

[mowgli]

I for one welcome "rider error" as being pointed out as the top reason as opposed to speed. Education is a good direction to head in.

Agree, entirely.

I expect the "rider error" stat only considers motorcycle crashes. There are simply too many cage crashes for "rider error" to top the general list. Human error should take that spot.

Safety systems must be designed to succeed in spite of the human elements within.

[YellowDog]

Blame is always in the eye of the beholder (or survivor).

The one who lshouts the loudest or in authority usually aportions the blame.

The Police always very quick to state that speed was a factor. Presumably more than ZERO kph is speed.

I always came off my bike once after sneezing violently. I swerved before stopping and a cop car pulled up beside me to have a go. He wouldn't listen. He said that I swerved violently almost coming off because I was riding too fast.

He changed his mind after I showed him the inside of my visor. The lady cop with him gave me some tissues and told the other cop to shut up.

[Laxi]

Thanks TGW, your comment re Italian riders - I presume meaning riders of Italian bikes? Cheers :)
nah! damn wogs:dodge:

I for one welcome "rider error" as being pointed out as the top reason as opposed to speed. Education is a good direction to head in.

+1 there


I know its been on a thread at least 1ce but I'd still like to see an ad like this on tv here
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/pgOt77Lfm5M&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/pgOt77Lfm5M&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[YellowDog]

I think it's a great advert too. It should be a part of a new classroom part of the bike test.

[Winston001]

Riders of Italian Bikes were mostly at fault in crashes...


I was half interested until I got to this point. :sleep:

[Genestho]

LMAO! Winston, I know it's a bit rough eh!?

Then there was talk of fatigue fatalities! As in falling asleep on bikes!???
I KNOW!
Hehe, I accidently said out loud, that must've been Harley Riders!! "We won't go there" was the reply! EEEEEEEEEEEK! (Ducks)

All notes I wrote were all in relation to the Motorcycling stats only guys.
And Rider Error was most definately at the top claims cost wise!

[LBD]

I was half interested until I got to this point. :sleep:

But why do you think that is? and why was it included?

[Ragingrob]

But why do you think that is? and why was it included?

Because who are likely to own italian bikes? The age-group that fits in with the born-agains.

[Genestho]

Because who are likely to own italian bikes? The age-group that fits in with the born-agains.

Just at a guess, I'd have thought Italian bikes would be in the 30's age group? There was a reason they were noted though.

I note in my paperwork in TGA the 30-34 age group have the highest amount costs of claims.

Whether or not this becomes a nationwide intiative - I couldn't say, but this is a WBOP intiative. Roadsafety groups are regional.

But I'll tell you this, which was said:

Motorcycling crash reduction is ACC's NZTA, and Govt Policy - Top Priority

[CookMySock]

Thanks for posting that. However, I was told that years ago there was specific motorcycle training that was required before you could get a full motorcycle license - where is that now? Why was it not brought back when it was clear there was a problem? What was the rationale behind removing it in the first place?

Seriously, if ACC or any government really gave a shit about getting motorcycle injuries down then they would DO something about it. Here they admit training is an issue, yet they have NO formal training, except the farse that is the defensive driving course.

So I call "bullshit" I'm 'fraid. I doubt the government is really interested in doing anything at all except furthering their own industry or more political grandstanding.

Take a look at the French motorcycle training. They have 20 (I think) hours of training before they will even let you on the road, and that costs thousands too. The stupid low-speed carpark thing we do in NZ is absurd.

Prove me wrong, though. Where is the compulsory training before 6F? What about ACC sponsored track days and advanced training?


Steve

[yungatart]

i am no aware that there has ever been a formal requirement for specific training for a 6F, although I may be wrong.
AFAIK, ACC sponsors RRRS courses...again I accept I can be wrong!

[Genestho]

Thanks for posting that. However, I was told that years ago there was specific motorcycle training that was required before you could get a full motorcycle license - where is that now? Why was it not brought back when it was clear there was a problem? What was the rationale behind removing it in the first place?

Seriously, if ACC or any government really gave a shit about getting motorcycle injuries down then they would DO something about it. Here they admit training is an issue, yet they have NO formal training, except the farse that is the defensive driving course.

So I call "bullshit" I'm 'fraid. I doubt the government is really interested in doing anything at all except furthering their own industry or more political grandstanding.

Take a look at the French motorcycle training. They have 20 (I think) hours of training before they will even let you on the road, and that costs thousands too. The stupid low-speed carpark thing we do in NZ is absurd.

Prove me wrong, though. Where is the compulsory training before 6F? What about ACC sponsored track days and advanced training?


Steve
Even though what you say makes some sense, I can't answer most of what you're asking dude. Email them and ask!?

Interesting you ask about ACC sponsored track days, that was bought up.
Also, what you need to understand and consider, is the budget for RoadSafety is spread out across alot of concerns, it's a big pot, it ends up chopped into little pieces, and then by region.

[Winston001]

But why do you think that is? and why was it included?


Because who are likely to own Italian bikes? The age-group that fits in with the born-agains.

My impression from rallies is that older motorcyclists who come back to riding buy Harley Davidsons. And BMWs. And adventure bikes. Not sports bikes because after a certain age....well, they just ain't too comfortable.


Unless like me you are really staunch and hardcore. :headbang: Now, where's that cup of Horlicks......:apint:

[AllanB]

Interesting post. :2thumbsup

It is good to see that Maori bikers are excelling in crashing above the Pakeha riders, I get sick of seeing media reports of the Maori being at the bottom of comparisons. :Pokey:

Seriously WTF has race got to do with it?, have they looked into why?

Maybe they ride harder & faster or maybe they ride more scooters and crash in town. Maybe Maori should be banned from Italian bikes?

"Sorry sir you are not eligible to purchase that Ducati, step over here as I also have a nice one-owner GN250...."

Personally I blame The Queen - there were ZERO motorcycle crashes in NZ until she sent her representatives over here.....

[Katman]

i am no aware that there has ever been a formal requirement for specific training for a 6F, although I may be wrong.
AFAIK, ACC sponsors RRRS courses...again I accept I can be wrong!

There certainly wasn't any requirement for approved training to get your full license in the early 80's. But by completing an approved course you could get your full straight away. (As opposed to having to be on a restricted license for 6 months). I would suggest the standards required (and costs incurred) for a full license back then were way lower than todays levels.

[CookMySock]

[...] by completing an approved course you could get your full straight away.I think this is likely what I heard.

It's foolishness trying to ride even a GT250R on rural NZ roads at 100 km/hr with no training, and anyone on their L plate can do that.

At least people should be formally taught to steer the damn thing.. and seriously, thats what's killing people. A steering lesson is only an hour, and results in a whole new look at riding.

Steve

[EJT]

Maori Riders caused the most crashes ethnicity wise


Group Ride Safety Education!

And I'd say in general a campaign aimed at Motorcyclists to "look out for themselves" Perhaps publicity around ie; countersteering when taking corners too fast, target fixation (there's another name that was used) and other issues faced on the roads concerning rider error.



Bit confused about the Maori riders bit. How do you "cause" crashes on a bike? Is it by wheeling past a slow riding newbie? Knee down in front of a scooter? Scaring the shit out of grannie in the toyota by screaming past at 200? Or do you mean they suffer the most crashes, which again would be surprising given the number of Maori riding?

Agreed that we need more rider education. Something like RRRS should be compulsory before graduating to a full.

[crazyhorse]

That's actually quite amazing!!!

[Hitcher]

One presumes that not being Maori nor living in the Easter (sic) Bay of Plenty will negate the effects of owning an Italian motorcycle.

[sondela]

One presumes that not being Maori nor living in the Easter (sic) Bay of Plenty will negate the effects of owning an Italian motorcycle.

Haha indeed, one rather hopes you presume correctly..

[quickbuck]

Righto,
Firstly, I have been to one of these ACC meetings too.
The whole point of them is they DO NOT want to keep paying out for claims.
They are actually asking us as motorcyclists for ideas to improve the situation we are currently in... We are currently NOT Good people!

Yes, we have Stats to interoperate, BUT if all the measuring points remain the same and the trend tends to worsen this means the situation is not going to
get any better without change.

My thoughts are compulsory training before 6R and 6F (on top of the current training for 6L)
Also subsidised training (Subsidy from ACC) every 5 years or so.... for motorcyclists.
Or re-sit every 10 for 6F...
Something along those lines.

Oh, and all those of us who got our licences way back when they were giving them out at the post office should at least do a practical course on the track (eg HRC, Suzuki etc) or RRRS, or Police... Or all of the above...

If you haven't ridden for a number of years, doing a course BEFORE picking up your new pride and joy would be a very smart move as well.

Now, all this may well be a bit of a burden on the current training facilities and providers we have....
Also, it may well be hopeless if the current general attitude toward improving ones skill sets remains...

[Genestho]

Bit confused about the Maori riders bit. How do you "cause" crashes on a bike? Is it by wheeling past a slow riding newbie? Knee down in front of a scooter? Scaring the shit out of grannie in the toyota by screaming past at 200? Or do you mean they suffer the most crashes, which again would be surprising given the number of Maori riding?

Agreed that we need more rider education. Something like RRRS should be compulsory before graduating to a full.

My shorthand says Maori, highest, dangerous. At that point the discussion were bullet points of causative factors.

The particular points in bold were read out loud from the police crash analysis preparation report!

As I say, don't shoot the messenger. I don't mean anything, but passing on what I heard.

I accepted the invite for the same two small reasons, that I posted the Thread - A) and B) in the first post!

I didn't go to argue, but to listen and learn.

[TonyB]

If you believe in Keith Code's theory of "Survival Reactions" (which I do) then statistics which show that rider error causes the majority of crashes would be right on the money.

This could be a good thing! If ACC seriously want to reduce the number of rider error crashes, then there's every chance that they will be considering subsidising quality rider training.

[Genestho]

Righto,
Firstly, I have been to one of these ACC meetings too.
The whole point of them is they DO NOT want to keep paying out for claims.
They are actually asking us as motorcyclists for ideas to improve the situation we are currently in... We are currently NOT Good people!

Yes, we have Stats to interoperate, BUT if all the measuring points remain the same and the trend tends to worsen this means the situation is not going to
get any better without change.

Also, it may well be hopeless if the current general attitude toward improving ones skill sets remains...

Exactly!! To all of the above, we all have seen the effects on kb, or if they're not on kb, known of the stories of rider error downfalls. Contributing to change in these forecasted trends, can only be a positive!!

Also as far as training, I noted the trainer guy that came along today said, 22-30 yr/old women were easy to train, but this 15-19 age, of males will be difficult to train, being bullet proof and already knowing everything there is to know on roadriding!

[Genestho]

If you believe in Keith Code's theory of "Survival Reactions" (which I do) then statistics which show that rider error causes the majority of crashes would be right on the money.

This could be a good thing! If ACC seriously want to reduce the number of rider error crashes, then there's every chance that they will be considering subsidising quality rider training.

From what I understand in WBOP there is, absolutely every chance dependant on budget, which sounds as if they'll need to be pooled from a couple of sources! The rep from Police was a bike rider, and the ACC rep sounded like she'd pillioned on a Harley, they sounded pretty darn serious to reduce on road crashes!

[Ragingrob]

The thing is... I'm pretty sure that in the majority of all road-user crashes, "driver error" would be the highest ranking stat. How can a crash even occur without some form of "driver error'?

Unless mother earth eats the car, or poor roading was a cause, then all crashes are due to rider/driver error are they not?

[Katman]

I sense that a number of motorcyclist's worlds will come crashing down around them when they finally discover that 'fucking cagers' aren't the cause of the majority of their ills.

:whistle:

[scumdog]

I sense that a number of motorcyclist's worlds will come crashing down around them when they finally discover that 'fucking cagers' aren't the cause of the majority of their ills.

:whistle:

Damn right!

[Genestho]

The thing is... I'm pretty sure that in the majority of all road-user crashes, "driver error" would be the highest ranking stat. How can a crash even occur without some form of "driver error'?

Unless mother earth eats the car, or poor roading was a cause, then all crashes are due to rider/driver error are they not?

Don't ask me, but here's the categories
Motorcycle claims costs - by causes

Slipping, Skidding on Foot
Tripping or stumbling
Loss of conciousness/sleep 2nd Highest Claim WBOP Districts
Lurching/Jerks in vehicles etc
Misjudgment of support
Loss of Hold
Loss balance/Personal Control Highest Claim - Tauranga City
Swerving/evasive Action
Skid
Driving into Hole/Object (which when asked meant environmental and powerpoles/fence etc) 3rd Highest Claim WBOP DistrictsLoss of control of vehicle 3rd Highest Claim - Tauranga City First Highest Claim WBOP Districts
Collision /knocked over by object (F'n Cagers) 2nd Highest Claims - Tauranga City
Other or unclear cause
There's a few more, but they're more strains and oopsie daisys

[PrincessBandit]

Any particular reason Western BoP and Tauranga are colour coded in your post? Makes me think perhaps Auckland isn't as bad as everyone makes out :whistle:

[Genestho]

Because Road Safety groups are not National, they are regional. They have to be, all data is co-alated regionally first and then nationally.
And I attended the regional meeting.
There are some Nationally related stats, but generally this was regional. Quite a big region.
As far as Aucks, or Nationally, it'd be interesting to look again at the stats!
It was said that Auckland has had a similar meeting, I'd be interested in knowing if anyone on kb has input from that meeting?

[dipshit]

And I'd say in general a campaign aimed at Motorcyclists to "look out for themselves" Perhaps publicity around ie; countersteering when taking corners too fast, target fixation (there's another name that was used) and other issues faced on the roads concerning rider error.

Because there is a perception that most accidents are caused by other vehicles, I have asked for definition of "Rider Error" stats, so motorcyclists can see for themselves, this particular stat broken down, and learn.

Good. Such a campaign would do a lot more good for motorcycle safety than the typical BRONZ bullshit that cars are responsible for the majority of motorcycle accidents.

[jrandom]

The area that suffers the most Motorcyclist Trauma (Injury) is Taupo

What a giant surprise that is to all of us who've met the local motorcyclists.

[Ragingrob]

What a giant surprise that is to all of us who've met the local motorcyclists.

I wonder if that includes all the bikers taken to hospital from the track :lol:

[jrandom]

Loss balance/Personal Control

Bahahahaha. ACC-ese for 'fucked up a wheelie'.

[Genestho]

I wonder if that includes all the bikers taken to hospital from the track :lol:

hehe!!! Nah, they said On Road

[Genestho]

What a giant surprise that is to all of us who've met the local motorcyclists.
Coughs! 5 4 3 2 1!

[MDR2]

I would only see a small percentage of the motorcycle claims that come through ACC but one of the more popular claims I come across is farmers falling off quads, farmers falling off bikes (even had a farmer crash into a cow)

I get annoyed that farmers using bikes on private property get thrown into the road using motorcylcist stats, another one that winds me up is people using car liscences to dart around on scooters. They haven't proven they have an ability use a bike like everyone else has to yet are allowed go out and represent us on the roads and add to the carnarge.

Recreational dirtbikers are another one representing.

Stats are a funny thing, and easily distorted.

[Katman]

Recreational dirtbikers are another one representing.



I suspect that is where Taupo's mention stems from.

[MDR2]

But I'll tell you this, which was said:

Motorcycling crash reduction is ACC's NZTA, and Govt Policy - Top Priority

It has begun....

http://www.scootersurvival.co.nz/

[Genestho]

I would only see a small percentage of the motorcycle claims that come through ACC but one of the more popular claims I come across is farmers falling off quads, farmers falling off bikes (even had a farmer crash into a cow)

I get annoyed that farmers using bikes on private property get thrown into the road using motorcylcist stats, another one that winds me up is people using car liscences to dart around on scooters. They haven't proven they have an ability use a bike like everyone else has to yet are allowed go out and represent us on the roads and add to the carnarge.

Recreational dirtbikers are another one representing.

Stats are a funny thing, and easily distorted.

That's one question I asked of the Police Rep, he reconed the quadbike/off road figure was minute. The words used were "mostly onroad crashes" were represented in these stats.
I'd like to know that percentage though. I think it's important.

[dipshit]

Look at the cc break down of the stats and you will see 500cc and over make a huge percentage. Kind of rules out a lot of the farm and trail bikes.

[Squiggles]

That's one question I asked of the Police Rep, he reconed the quadbike/off road figure was minute. The words used were "mostly onroad crashes" were represented in these stats.
I'd like to know that percentage though. I think it's important.

Wasnt the attached document was it? This is the one i was sent December last year by ACC during the Ride Forever campaign

[xwhatsit]

I sense that a number of motorcyclist's worlds will come crashing down around them when they finally discover that 'fucking cagers' aren't the cause of the majority of their ills.

:whistle:

Damn right!
Yeah --- it's not the cagers --- it's the Fuzz, innit?

[Ixion]

..

22-30 yr/old women were easy to train,..

Hah ! What planet is he on ? Even training them to do the simplest stuff, like fetching a beer or swallowing, is nigh impossible.

[Squiggles]

another one that winds me up is people using car liscences to dart around on scooters. They haven't proven they have an ability use a bike like everyone else has to yet are allowed go out and represent us on the roads and add to the carnarge.

I followed that one up and was sent the document i posted further up the page, High but significantly lower than the 750cc+ category. Although i suspect this groups presence could be signficantly reduced if we were to educate the scootlists

[xwhatsit]

I followed that one up and was sent the document i posted further up the page, High but significantly lower than the 750cc+ category. Although i suspect this groups presence could be signficantly reduced if we were to educate the scootlists
So it's finally confirmed. People like me are subsidising the GSXR weekend-Coro-GP crowd.

[Genestho]

Wasnt the attached document was it? This is the one i was sent December last year by ACC during the Ride Forever campaign

Seems like that's a summary of the crash analysis. I think the Police Rep read out bullet points from something like this, with 2008 stats factored in (I THINK it's July - June - would need to check!) But the report was more like 20 pages, over all data perhaps?

[Genestho]

So it's finally confirmed. People like me are subsidising the GSXR weekend-Coro-GP crowd.

Insensitive mate.
Don't think they haven't been affected.
All the words in the world can't teach you what these incidents do!!

[MDR2]

as far as i know, ACC don't split hairs over on road/off road.

It's motorbike or not motorbike. I could try delve into the matter deeper at work if I find a spare minute.

[MDR2]

So it's finally confirmed. People like me are subsidising the GSXR weekend-Coro-GP crowd.

MEntality

:)

[RAC]

Im very dubious as to how ACC collect this info, the documents that they collate from are very black and white with bugger all subjective or situational input i.e. you crashed coz you ran off the road, not you crashed coz you ran off the road whilst avoiding a hazard, and very subject to the input of the person scribing and the interpretation of the person inputting the info.
Anecdotally, and from my own experience, in 2+ vehicle accidents the majority of fault can still be laid at the other drivers door, (particularly at intersections and in traffic) but that still leaves around 40% single vehicle (the bike) or rider error accidents.
The acc forms have a tick box "did this accident occur on a public road", this again is open to interpretation as legislation means the surface of the moon can be considered a public road (if your Richard Branson....).

A personal bugbear, if you lane split on the motorway at thrice the speed traffic is moving and get wasted IT IS YOUR FAULT. dickhead......

[Devil]

It has begun....

http://www.scootersurvival.co.nz/

Have just read through the info on this site and I approve. It's well written, and raises completely valid points regarding riding and gear.
Now to get people to read it...

[Winston001]

..... with the emergence of Rider Error in Motorcycling stats as the highest ACC claim.

Some other notes I took on Rider Error were:


Riders of Italian Bikes were mostly at fault in crashes...

Maori Riders caused the most crashes ethnicity wise



Whooaa there Neddy!! If I read this correctly, Maori Ducati riders are in the highest risk bracket....:shit: must get that genealogy chart out...

And at a higher level - motorcyclists themselves are at fault???? :no: Yeah right.

We all know its the cagers/police/roading contractors who are responsible for motorcycle accidents. Really, where do you get this stuff from!

[The Pastor]

bloodly marys makin it bad for us white folk

[BuckBuck#1]

Read with interest.

I’d like to present a few comments:

When a rider is a part of a group ride: is the rider confident riding in the group and did the rider feel comfortable riding at the pace of the group? [perhaps confident and comfortable can be inter-changeable in the context of the question.]

Do riders get a false sense of ‘security’ having ridden in a group, and then does the rider think s/he may be developing better riding techniques? Here I could be specific and say ‘Do novice riders…. Do young/old riders….Do fast riders……Do experienced riders……get a false sense of security.

Generally, I think it is reasonable to say that as motorcyclists we do congregate in the week through summer and on the weekends through the year to enjoy a ride with others that share the enjoyment. Associated however with that ‘social dynamic’ are, at times, pitfalls – riders can be tempted to ride outside their comfort zone and the temptation is theirs alone and at times can be measured by the number of times they get that tightness in the pit of their stomachs eg. scrubbing off speed.

Riding a motorcycle comes with an attitude, one that is never constant: riding alone and being vigilant on the daily commute, or riding alone out along a countryside road, or meeting up for a group ride – the fast ones are there, the observant ones are there, the timid ones are there, and so it goes on.

Whatever changes may occur in the future in relation to motorcycle training and licensing, and I hope some positive things do occur in that regard. There is nevertheless a realization that in riding a motorcycle the distance between the wrist and the forehead is fairly common, but the distance between the forehead and the state of mind is immeasureable at any given moment.

There are many, many situations that have lead to and contributed to an injury or fatal accident. Please, please be careful out there.

Ride Safe

[dipshit]

Anecdotally, and from my own experience, in 2+ vehicle accidents the majority of fault can still be laid at the other drivers door, (particularly at intersections and in traffic)

Talk about just making things up out of thin air. In multiple vehicle accidents, it is about 50/50 car/motorcyclist fault in NZ fairly consistently for the last few years.



but that still leaves around 40% single vehicle (the bike) or rider error accidents.

Well in fatal motorcycle accidents... 75% are rider error.

[RAC]

is it still plucking it out of thin air when i consistently see it at work? thats why i said "anecdotally" and "my experience", and to illustrate the difference between an official black and white figure on a piece of paper and the various greys of reality.

[Genestho]

Whooaa there Neddy!! If I read this correctly, Maori Ducati riders are in the highest risk bracket....:shit: must get that genealogy chart out...

And at a higher level - motorcyclists themselves are at fault???? :no: Yeah right.

We all know its the cagers/police/roading contractors who are responsible for motorcycle accidents. Really, where do you get this stuff from!

Well, before we get defensive, I think I found what the point is in narrowing the Ethnicity stats down.

This speech is from the Maori Party yesterday, with regards to the Land Transport Ammendment, and roadside drug testing! Which Candor has been lobbying for, for 5 years after her Mum was killed at the hands of a P driver!

Thursday, 25 June 2009, 4:42 pm
Speech: The Maori Party

Land Transport Amendment Bill ; third reading
Wednesday 24 June 2009; 5.30pm
Te Ururoa Flavell, MP for Waiariki

"I read a statistic today that confirmed even more for me the importance of doing what we can to reduce injury and death on the roads.

Fifty-one percent of Māori people who die due to injury, died on the street or highway in road deaths. Forty-six percent of these deaths were due to motor vehicle crashes.
That is one hell of a waste of Māori potential that is just being ripped away from us because of hazardous driving and reckless drivers. It is not just a loss of life that we are talking about here, which is a tragedy in itself, but also the estimated social cost of road crashes includes loss of life or life quality, medical and rehabilitation costs, legal and court costs, property damage, and loss of output due to injuries.
These crashes resulted in 109 deaths, 556 serious injuries, and 1,768 minor injuries. These numbers are based on crashes where alcohol or dugs were proven or suspected to be a contributing factor in a crash: 100 hundred people who did not need to die; over 2,000 people who will never ever forget the idiot in charge of the wheel for what they did to impair their loss of enjoyment of life."

Link (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0906/S00365.htm)

Quite clearly, there is an ethnicity problem being recognised, and if the Maori Party can see it, and address the facts and leave the cries of racism out of it, this is a good thing!

[Winston001]

Fifty-one percent of Māori people who die due to injury, died on the street or highway in road deaths. Forty-six percent of these deaths were due to motor vehicle crashes.

Interesting figures and its good the Maori Party are supporting the new law. My gut reaction is that motor vehicle accidents must account for a high percentage of total injuries among the population for all ethnicities. Not 50% though - that is very high when you consider farming, forestry, freezing works etc etc.

[Genestho]

Interesting figures and its good the Maori Party are supporting the new law. My gut reaction is that motor vehicle accidents must account for a high percentage of total injuries among the population for all ethnicities. Not 50% though - that is very high when you consider farming, forestry, freezing works etc etc.

Yea I get what you're saying there, sorry to take it slightly off topic, but I just wondered if there is a specific reason why ethnicity has become an issue. If there wasn't a point, it wouldn't have been a bullet point, there must be some amount of concern?
Or even reference to Italian bikes, as you say.
Unless data collection is becoming more defined?
Or has it always been this defined and we've never known? I don't know...think I'll have to find out.

[RAC]

ACC45 claim forms have some very specific ethnicity tickboxes, about 15, and space to write yours in if you are, for instance, a New Zealander......

[Genestho]

ACC45 claim forms have some very specific ethnicity tickboxes, about 15, and space to write yours in if you are, for instance, a New Zealander......

What about police crash analysis data though? Seperate co-alation of different material isn't it? Or no? I'm a newb, and didn't get to ask all the questions. Ethicity was mentioned via the crash data, not the ACC data.

[Winston001]

Well ethnicity is simple. We have a bi-cultural nation where Maori are politically active and sifting out Maori stats makes sense. I'd guess other ethnicities are also collated in the same stats.

The trouble with getting all of this interesting data is the forms required grow exponentially in size. So filling them out takes much longer, then someone else has to enter the data into electronic form so it has meaning.

I chaired a charity a few years ago providing medical services. The employed staff spent 54% of their time collecting and entering data. :shutup: That means they spent only 46% of their time actually do the job they were employed for. :no:

Today that data is locked up in the Hocken Library and might be looked at in 100 years out of curiosity by some history researcher.

[Genestho]

The trouble with getting all of this interesting data is the forms required grow exponentially in size. So filling them out takes much longer, then someone else has to enter the data into electronic form so it has meaning.

I chaired a charity a few years ago providing medical services. The employed staff spent 54% of their time collecting and entering data. :shutup: That means they spent only 46% of their time actually do the job they were employed for. :no:

Is that the difference though between an NGO (assuming it was an NGO?) and Govt agencies?
Today that data is locked up in the Hocken Library and might be looked at in 100 years out of curiosity by some history researcher.

Mmmm. Data is a bugger of a thing, I was employed by a Govt owned NZ company (well it was back then) to input data. And yeah, say no more!

Well the feedback I get from here, is that A) Training would be welcomed.

B)Stats are an issue! Which I'd already made clear yesterday, and made a call and reiterated that this morning.

I guess if they want the Motorcycling Community onboard perhaps the raw data needs to be available and published, even then I think there'd be dubious belief, however, we do already know, that in the last 12 months there's been a load of rider error fatalities, do we really need convincing that badly?

Anyway, if anyone is interested, and I don't get a slap over the knuckles, for publishing the meeting, I'll provide an update down the track, or if anyone else is involved - perhaps they may want to shed light!

[cheshirecat]

Someone once said stats are like a bikinis. What they hide is the most interesting part.

[LBD]

Someone once said stats are like a bikinis. What they hide is the most interesting part.

So.....what hidden facts or agenda are you aluding to?