Tyre wear at VMCC Rd 2 [Archive]

johan

25th June 2009, 15:42

Do you have any photos of your tyre Deano? I'd be interesting to see.

It seems to be a hit and miss. I saw brand new tyres shredded to pieces after two sessions, others looked just scrubbed in after the whole weekend.

With my bike running Pirelli sc2 superbike slick, lower pressure gave me better wear.
~24psi cold, ~30psi hot after a race, around 85 C surface temperature.

The rider on the 749 tried similar settings, it didn't work at all for him, but he might have had a softer compound though.

I have a rate 8 spring, he's got a 12, if I remember correctly.

My rubber was an early 2008 batch, used 3 race meetings, its retired now, but looks mint.

I don't know if any of this helps you Deano, it's all very confusing, so many variables.

Biggles08

25th June 2009, 16:07

My tires seemed to last ok throughout the weekend. I was wearing METZELER 'Dot' Racetechs K1 front and K2 rear. I did encounter some cold shear on the saturday but reduced the pressure and it cleaned up a bit after this. I was stoked at the amount of grip I was getting considering how cold the track was!

scuzeme

25th June 2009, 16:08

Hi Deano

I know i wasnt pushing it as hard as some others but i had a Metzeler K0 (qualifying tyre) front and a K1 Rear which had done one race at Taupo and a test day, these were a little chewed but still good, i changed to a brand new K1 front and K2 rear on Sunday and Robert came and made a few changes to my suspension and they are still mint. Robert did make a comment that hed seen a few tyres looking a little worse for ware on Sunday.
I was running 28 psi Front and 29 psi Rear in my tyres and checking them before and after every race after having my spill on Friday.

My understanding (and its probably a bit simple) is that cold shear happens in cold conditions when the tyre hasnt had time to warm up to proper operating temperature, cold shear can be eliminated sometimes by making the tyre work harder quicker through suspension and tyre pressure changes.

I may be a bit off with this though.

Cheers.

Deano

25th June 2009, 16:34

Cheers for the feedback guys.

I was running 27psi rear and 30psi front while on the warmers. (24 and 27 cold respectively)

I haven't encountered this much wear before. Will try and get a picture up soon....like when Drew returns my bike !!

mossy1200

25th June 2009, 16:50

Race 2 was as far as my rear got and had to be changed for race three.medium compound pirelli rear.I was under the impression cold sheer was caused by having tyre running to hot on a cold surface so harder tyres required so the differential was not to great.Run them to soft and the problems increase.

neil_cb125t

25th June 2009, 17:25

hey mate,
i am running the dunlops had sim problems on the friday test day - rob taylor modded a fews things - aye dropped the shit out of my pressures from 28 cold on the rear to 25 hot!! check out the pics the back end looks flat as!!
Also added alot of preload on the rear - was told a heavier spring may help. I practiced and raced the first 6lapper and then the 10 lapper on sunday ( in 2 classes ) then both sides had worn ALL the rubber!!! the right looked like shit though.

i cant believe i did 32 laps racing and 2 practices on a new dunlop!!!

I was running 27psi rear and 30psi front while on the warmers. (24 and 27 cold respectively)

I haven't encountered this much wear before. Will try and get a picture up soon....like when Drew returns my bike !![/QUOTE]

Sparky Bills

25th June 2009, 18:09

I had Pirelli Supercorsa's... SC0 Front, SC2 Rear.
Running 26psi (cold) front and rear.
10kg rear spring, 94kg rider.

Mine were mint all day! Started moving round a little towards the end of races, and were starting to chew a little but nothing to worry about really.
Would even be tempted to use them for round 2.
Will have to consider my budget though.

Eamon had massive issues with his. They were destroyed before Saturday had ended!

Cold track temps didnt help.

Biggles08

25th June 2009, 20:05

Would even be tempted to use them for round 2.

You Should Sparky...you should....help me keep up!:clap:

Robert Taylor

25th June 2009, 20:36

Some very valid points, the long track is like adding a different track as the tyres spend so much of their time on their sides. For parts of the track you need a soft spring with lots of preload, for other parts a firmer spring with less preload. And then theres damping......Its all compromise in the end event. Bring on electronic shocks that self adjust for every corner!!!
Shaun made a valid point about the age of the tyres, some may be 3 years old when you buy them new and stored in less than ideal conditions with temperature fluctuation. Why are many race tyres sold cheaply?
The Europeans dont usually race in such cold temps and dont experience cold shear to anything like the extent we do.
Because of all of the above its probably fair to say that the odds are stacked against us and that everything we do to race in such conditions is almost a band aid.

Robert Taylor

25th June 2009, 20:38

And heck just imagine the tyre issues if everyone was racing on stock suspension. And there are less than informed people proposing such.

Ivan

25th June 2009, 20:59

I had the same issue

johan

25th June 2009, 21:03

How come we have brilliant suspension backup and support at the track but no tyre retailers around that can help us out?

There must be a fortune spent on tyres each round.

Biggles08

25th June 2009, 21:34

How come we have brilliant suspension backup and support at the track but no tyre retailers around that can help us out?

There must be a fortune spent on tyres each round.

I'm no expert but I believe its completely suspension that is causing the issues here....even the suspension gurus would agree I'm sure. Besides, if there were tire distributors about what use would they be?

johan

25th June 2009, 22:05

I'm no expert but I believe its completely suspension that is causing the issues here....even the suspension gurus would agree I'm sure. Besides, if there were tire distributors about what use would they be?

I don't know either what is causing some bikes chewing tyres and others not.

It's obviously an interaction between tyres and suspension, and many other variables causing wear.

I'd imagine tyre companies have a lot of data how to use their tyres, what compound, pressure and operating temperature that would work best for a given environment. It sure would be handy to have someone to ask that about.

How do I compensate my tyre pressure from summer 25 C ambient to winter 10 C ambient temperature? Am I required to collect data and take photos under a season to get my head around their product?

I've asked a tyre importer about any numbers or data they could share, but basically got the answer it's very technical so here, try this random number as cold pressure. I'm doing software engineering and have no problem digging into numbers or theories, please bring it on.

So far I've received more tyre tips from a suspension tech than from a tyre tech.
I'm happy to pay for any consultancy, because it will save me money in the end.

They still charge us full price, some say for old tyres. We're struggling to get their products to work, yet we buy them again and again for each round.

I'm just thinking it would benefit everyone to get some help to the problem.
Anyone agree?

Sketchy_Racer

25th June 2009, 23:01

I'm no expert but I believe its completely suspension that is causing the issues here....even the suspension gurus would agree I'm sure. Besides, if there were tire distributors about what use would they be?

Not necessarily. Tyres, I imagine, are designed to run within a temperature range. Like all things it's about compromise. XYZ tyre manufacture may have decided that they can ultimate grip out of their tyres, but only if the track temp is over 20 degrees and under 50 (example). Above or below those ranges and they wont work. But that is the compromise the tyre manufacture decided to make in order to achieve the results they want.

Many other factors that exist are riders, each rider rides differently and some styles might make cold shredding more susceptible. Also, a worn linkage/swingarm unit, that'll also have an effect as to how much control the shock will have over the wheel on the ground.
Tyre age is probably a big one, as is tyre compound. I dare say that it would be very unlikely that a tyre manufacture would design a full blown race tyre to run on track temps as low as what we were running on at round 2.
I wonder if a Road tyre would be more suited, as they would be designed to handle the colder temps?

I don't have a informed opinion on it, but those are ideas floating around in my head.

GSVR

26th June 2009, 05:35

Well hes an idea I have concerning this.

You put your tyre warmers on and soak the tyres so the whole carcass is up to temp. When the tyres hot the "rubber" is alot softer and elastic and less likely to tear. Then your called up to race and in the process of waiting on the dummy grid and doing a moderate lap the outside surface of the tyre cools off considerably and is more likely to tear. Because the "rubber" underneath is still hot and elastic when the tyre is placed under load the top surface of the tyre gets small tears in it from the track surface. Once started these cracks get bigger and you end up with the wear pattern that most call cold shear.

As argued at length on other threads I've seen it happen on the best setup bikes suspension wise and bikes with crap suspension.

There are ways to stop it happening but I'm no tyre or suspension expert so aren't qualified to give advice on these matters even if I know what worked for me.

Biggles08

26th June 2009, 08:13

I don't know either what is causing some bikes chewing tyres and others not.

It's obviously an interaction between tyres and suspension, and many other variables causing wear.

I'd imagine tyre companies have a lot of data how to use their tyres, what compound, pressure and operating temperature that would work best for a given environment. It sure would be handy to have someone to ask that about.

How do I compensate my tyre pressure from summer 25 C ambient to winter 10 C ambient temperature? Am I required to collect data and take photos under a season to get my head around their product?

I've asked a tyre importer about any numbers or data they could share, but basically got the answer it's very technical so here, try this random number as cold pressure. I'm doing software engineering and have no problem digging into numbers or theories, please bring it on.

So far I've received more tyre tips from a suspension tech than from a tyre tech.
I'm happy to pay for any consultancy, because it will save me money in the end.

They still charge us full price, some say for old tyres. We're struggling to get their products to work, yet we buy them again and again for each round.

I'm just thinking it would benefit everyone to get some help to the problem.
Anyone agree?

What tires are you running Johan? I've found Andrew at Forbes and Davies to be really helpfull in answering questions on the METZELER tires. I do think however that a lot of the technology is not shared with the distributors and most of the knowledge base that the likes of F&D have is based on other peoples/users feedback. They have the basic information to get you going but issues like sketchy has highlighted (rider style etc) is a bit 'trial and error.'

codgyoleracer

26th June 2009, 15:58

My experience is that you can still "sheer" tyres in summertime - but it is almost always a suspension set up issue or a track surface specific issue (i e Teratonga type surfaces) & can be solved. In winter however the track temp tends to make the rubber run below its optimum temperature range (see sketchy post) & therefore the window for setting up your suspension to keep the tyre within range becomes very small indeed. The window can also change from session to session. Even very small changes in tyre pressure can have quite dramatic effect.
Evidence of this is that it is not that uncommon to have identicle bikes with identicle rubber fitted exhibiting completley different types of front or rear tyre "sheer".
Sometime the quicker riders suffer less from sheer, - because their speed adds heat into the tyres & sometimes the oposite applies !
It is a genuine conundrum that keeps the tyre suppliers and the suspension guys working hard to solve on any given day.
Good managment of and the quality of your tyre warmers also can have an effect on sheer.
Road compound tyres - do often sheer a little less - but in my experience have less grip overall even-so.
GlenW

svr

26th June 2009, 16:29

Sometime the quicker riders suffer less from sheer, - because their speed adds heat into the tyres & sometimes the oposite applies !

At some really cold meetings (esp pre-tyre warmer days) it seems like you have to scare yourself through to get / keep the tyres working. Weird. There is more sidewall movement before they're up to temp/ pressure. At cold track days & races without tyre warmers I use more pressure because of this.

Robert Taylor

26th June 2009, 17:36

Despite only riding a commuter SV650, I managed to chew out a rear tyre in just one weekend. This included 2 qualifying and 4 races.

The wear looked like nothing I have encountered before and despite fiddling with suspension set up, it did nothing to reduce wear.

I noticed a lot of other racers were talking about tyre issues and wonder if the cause was cold shear ?

Can anyone else add any info to this ?

Hi Deano,

As you will recall we stated that the shock needs revalving to a firmer internal damping spec that we have developed and is working really well. Springs sometimes sort the issue but its also about controlling the rate of change of position, that is taken care of by the damping.

Robert Taylor

26th June 2009, 17:40

How come we have brilliant suspension backup and support at the track but no tyre retailers around that can help us out?

There must be a fortune spent on tyres each round.

Maybe they dont want to work for free!

Robert Taylor

26th June 2009, 18:09

I'm no expert but I believe its completely suspension that is causing the issues here....even the suspension gurus would agree I'm sure. Besides, if there were tire distributors about what use would they be?

No and yes.

As per my first post in this thread that particular long track throws up some major setup compromises and tyre wear issues, it gets a whole lot worse in the ridiculously cold temps we race in.
Some very valid points have been raised by Glen, Glen and GSVR etc. Here are a few more;

1) Many of the new tyres we purchase are not new at all! They are often up to 3 years old and as Shaun has eluded to may have been subject to unacceptably wide temperature fluctuations in storage. Unacceptable but then consumers price demands may in effect be driving part of that .

2) For consistent and acceptable tyre performance they should be no older than 1 year old.

3) NZ is a very price concious market and I would imagine that some of the tyre distributors may purchase ''specials'' from the manufacturers. The specials relating to price specials. You get good batches of home baking and not so good batches. The baking also has a storage lifespan. Ditto for tyres.

4) If you are using hand me downs then likely the tyres are well past their best and will exhibit issues more readily

5) There is a temperature operating window for tyres and compounds, that ''window'' has got a lot narrower even over the last couple of years.

6) Soft compound tyres on cold tracks are a recipe for disaster, much sooner

7) SUSPENSION SETUP is indeed a huge factor. Yes you can screw tyres if the setup with your top shelf suspension is off. Point of fact the springing / preload etc has to often be firmer in the winter months to help build heat into the tyres. But with aftermarket suspension there are readily available spring options and the ability to revalve quickly using a setting bank of alternative damping curves / characteristics. Try that with a stock shock and also allow much much more time for revalve.
And I have to say it spring supply and exchange for Ohlins springs is in NZ VERY LIBERAL. In all other markets that I know of you have to purchase and own your own spring options. This makes a mockery of those that chastise my operation of being in it entirely for the money.

8) Tyre warmers should heat to no more than 75 degrees celsius. Tyres are like cakes. You can overcook them and ruin them. And how many heat cycles had many of the tyres used at the weekend been through?

And so on.....MISHY WHERE ARE YOU? You will be able to describe the technicalities of tyres much better than me.

Robert Taylor

26th June 2009, 19:52

Hi Deano,

As you will recall we stated that the shock needs revalving to a firmer internal damping spec that we have developed and is working really well. Springs sometimes sort the issue but its also about controlling the rate of change of position, that is taken care of by the damping.

Further to this the SV650 has a particularly ''non racing friendly'' rear linkage as the bike was never ever intended as a racebike. Shock internal spec has to account for that and its surprising how aggressive the low speed shimming and bypass into the reservoir has to be.

Deano

26th June 2009, 20:55

Hi Deano,

As you will recall we stated that the shock needs revalving to a firmer internal damping spec that we have developed and is working really well. Springs sometimes sort the issue but its also about controlling the rate of change of position, that is taken care of by the damping.

Thanks again for your help at the weekend. I will get the shock to you soon for that revalve.

Thanks also Glenn et al - there are obviously a lot of factors to consider and I've learnt quite a bit.

Robert Taylor

26th June 2009, 21:07

Thanks again for your help at the weekend. I will get the shock to you soon for that revalve.

Thanks also Glenn et al - there are obviously a lot of factors to consider and I've learnt quite a bit.

Dont ever be afraid to ask Deano, and anyone else having problems. If we can help we do. And its not all about money.

Shaun

27th June 2009, 08:45

How come we have brilliant suspension backup and support at the track but no tyre retailers around that can help us out?

There must be a fortune spent on tyres each round.

ummm,

I am Moto-Dynamix

I work with suspension Ohlin;s Race tech etc

I do sell and stock Continentall tyres

What more can I do for you?

O, and are an old has been racer, who has an idea or 2 left in his head cell

Shaun

27th June 2009, 09:36

Not necessarily. Tyres, I imagine, are designed to run within a temperature range. Like all things it's about compromise. XYZ tyre manufacture may have decided that they can ultimate grip out of their tyres, but only if the track temp is over 20 degrees and under 50 (example). Above or below those ranges and they wont work. But that is the compromise the tyre manufacture decided to make in order to achieve the results they want.

Many other factors that exist are riders, each rider rides differently and some styles might make cold shredding more susceptible. Also, a worn linkage/swingarm unit, that'll also have an effect as to how much control the shock will have over the wheel on the ground.
Tyre age is probably a big one, as is tyre compound. I dare say that it would be very unlikely that a tyre manufacture would design a full blown race tyre to run on track temps as low as what we were running on at round 2.
I wonder if a Road tyre would be more suited, as they would be designed to handle the colder temps?

I don't have a informed opinion on it, but those are ideas floating around in my head.

Road trye, NO mate, it will NOT shred, but you will also only have Road tyre grip level, not race level grip.

Re temp range, correct, we are lucky that our brand of tyre, has a wider window of operating temp than most other tyres out there, hense they last so well, I was looking at a lot of other brands at Manfield last week, and was quietly proud of our brand, in the wat it dealt with the conditions on the day.

Correct re the chassis set up, and correct re riders style, some go in hard, some come out hard, some just cruise, loading and working the tyre helps generate heat, or helps loose heat in the tyres.

Suspension internall settings, and bike sag set up is the true awnser to these tyre issues, a shock set to race in summer hot days, will NOT work as well in freezing winter, simple!

As an ajent for Ohlin;s Race Tech, Continental tyres, I am always availlable for an aducated opinion on what you the racer may need to adjust your settings to gain the most from your package, just come and find me where I am pitted.

Continental tyre users, get my services free of Charge

Robert Taylor

27th June 2009, 10:07

I have to concur about Continental tyres, they are going ahead in leaps and bounds. They certainly seem to cope with the cold conditions much better and Id lay money on the time between manufacture and first use is considerably shorter than other brands!

johan

27th June 2009, 10:41

ummm,

I am Moto-Dynamix

I work with suspension Ohlin;s Race tech etc

I do sell and stock Continentall tyres

What more can I do for you?

O, and are an old has been racer, who has an idea or 2 left in his head cell

My bad Shaun, I stand corrected, Continental is very well represented at the track through Moto-Dynamix.
I had another popular brand in my mind when I wrote the above.

It's time for a new set of rubber for my bike and I'd be interested to change brand try the Continentals. Not only have I heard good things about them but if I could get a few minutes with an IOM legend, that'd be a great experience!

Shaun

27th June 2009, 12:35

My bad Shaun, I stand corrected, Continental is very well represented at the track through Moto-Dynamix.
I had another popular brand in my mind when I wrote the above.

It's time for a new set of rubber for my bike and I'd be interested to change brand try the Continentals. Not only have I heard good things about them but if I could get a few minutes with an IOM legend, that'd be a great experience!

IOM Legend in my own mind mate ha ha

Jump ship NOW dude, and you have my 100% commitment to helping you go forward, I only deal with Continental tyres, I ride on what I sell! and will NOT sell anything I will not use myself.

Shaun

27th June 2009, 12:38

My bad Shaun, I stand corrected, Continental is very well represented at the track through Moto-Dynamix.
I had another popular brand in my mind when I wrote the above.

It's time for a new set of rubber for my bike and I'd be interested to change brand try the Continentals. Not only have I heard good things about them but if I could get a few minutes with an IOM legend, that'd be a great experience!

That popular brand, is probally the popular brand that is bringing in 2 year old tyres to sell to it;s customers here, for a cheaoish price, with high margins in them for importer, as they purchased them cheap, due to the age of the tyre?

Of course, I am only guessing ha ha ha yea write, i looked at 12 tyres last weekend, that were all 2 years old, yet just purchased
NEW here in the last month- strooth

wharfy

27th June 2009, 15:47

I had no tyre problems, I used the Conti race attack, got some tips from Shaun about preassure.

And didn't go fast - no problem.

They are wearing so well it looks like I will only have to change them when I get sick of the colour.

Do Conti do anything in a nice beige Shaun ?

:)

Crasherfromwayback

27th June 2009, 16:40

And heck just imagine the tyre issues if everyone was racing on stock suspension. And there are less than informed people proposing such.

No problem if everyone has stock suspension! I know you're gonna say it'll save them $'s on tyres...but non stock suspension set up incorrectly will fuck em too!

Robert Taylor

27th June 2009, 18:47

No problem if everyone has stock suspension! I know you're gonna say it'll save them $'s on tyres...but non stock suspension set up incorrectly will fuck em too!

I repeat, there would be MAJOR tyre issues with stock suspension, especially with the 600s AND 1000s. What part of that dont you understand???????

suzuki21

28th June 2009, 02:49

And heck just imagine the tyre issues if everyone was racing on stock suspension. And there are less than informed people proposing such.

It looks as though everyone is running way to much tyre pressure, its not due to just the suspension. No matter how good your suspension is tyres run at incorrect pressure will chew up. Pirelli compounds and sidewall structure were actually changed last year, you can look up the code numbers on the internet for the correct pressure - hint - 20-21 for a rear.

suzuki21

28th June 2009, 02:52

I repeat, there would be MAJOR tyre issues with stock suspension, especially with the 600s AND 1000s. What part of that dont you understand???????

Stock suspension isnt that bad now days, ever tried to ride an old GSXR1100 fast?

suzuki21

28th June 2009, 02:59

And heck just imagine the tyre issues if everyone was racing on stock suspension. And there are less than informed people proposing such.
I believe at the MNZ meeting there were some very informed people who agreed to the new suspension rules, one was Aaron somebody who as well as riding bikes with factory wsbk suspension also used to race production bikes with way too much power for the tyres and suspension of the day.

Robert Taylor

28th June 2009, 10:01

It looks as though everyone is running way to much tyre pressure, its not due to just the suspension. No matter how good your suspension is tyres run at incorrect pressure will chew up. Pirelli compounds and sidewall structure were actually changed last year, you can look up the code numbers on the internet for the correct pressure - hint - 20-21 for a rear.

That is one part of the equation that many overlook, yes. But only one part.

Robert Taylor

28th June 2009, 10:07

Stock suspension isnt that bad now days, ever tried to ride an old GSXR1100 fast?

We get LOTS of trackday and ordinary everyday road riders that come to us seeking improvements to their supension and solutions to tyre issues.
Yes, in the mid 70s through to mid 80s I owned a succession of road bikes, incl RD350, XS650 / 750 / 1100, XJ650, RZ500, FZ750 etc. Whilst working in England I worked on and rode every imaginable road bike.
What I do know is that one thing is consistent from then until the present, suspension is still the weak area on road going motorcycles. And when you race them those problems magnify.

Robert Taylor

28th June 2009, 10:22

I believe at the MNZ meeting there were some very informed people who agreed to the new suspension rules, one was Aaron somebody who as well as riding bikes with factory wsbk suspension also used to race production bikes with way too much power for the tyres and suspension of the day.

The suspension regulations rules for 2010 have been locked in for some time, before that MNZ conference. Nothing is decided beyond and its going to committee hearings from here on in.
Aaron was I believe an invite from the pro stock suspension lobby and really he should have known better. His days of racing proddy bikes were when there was a lot less horsepower, flimsy frames and less footprint to challenge tyres. The tyres were also a lot less developed / focused than they are now and more forgiving. That was the past and we are not going back there.
Production Superbikes probably have about the same horsepower as the WSBK bikes Aaron used to race and if Honda had turned up with stock production suspension for him to race with I imagine he would have laughed in their faces! So on that basis his presence had no credibility. ( I have absolutely no personal issues with Aaron )
There is also one suspension tuner who has been in the road race game only a little over two years, if the rules change to production based he will make more money than dealing with aftermarket ( as would I ) I call that vested interest.
We should keep up with the rest of the world and not aspire to third world mentality. Recessions dont last forever. At VMCC round 2 there were 34 bikes in the Superbike / 600 field and 90% were fitted with aftermarket suspension, 2 that werent have now ordered aftermarket either as new or secondhand.
The numbers and equipment are there!!!! Its a matter of re-organising the Nationals to attract those riders.

Crasherfromwayback

28th June 2009, 12:06

I repeat, there would be MAJOR tyre issues with stock suspension, especially with the 600s AND 1000s. What part of that dont you understand???????

I understand more than you think I do Robert.

The suspension regulations rules for 2010 have been locked in for some time, before that MNZ conference. Nothing is decided beyond and its going to committee hearings from here on in.
Aaron was I believe an invite from the pro stock suspension lobby and really he should have known better. His days of racing proddy bikes were when there was a lot less horsepower, flimsy frames and less footprint to challenge tyres. The tyres were also a lot less developed / focused than they are now and more forgiving. That was the past and we are not going back there.
Production Superbikes probably have about the same horsepower as the WSBK bikes Aaron used to race and if Honda had turned up with stock production suspension for him to race with I imagine he would have laughed in their faces! So on that basis his presence had no credibility. ( I have absolutely no personal issues with Aaron )
.

While Aarons proddie bikes back then did have less HP...and the frames were shittier...the tyres smaller (although an FZR1000 used a 180 from memory)...

So what? Todays frames are stiffer and better....the brakes are better...the tyres better...and HELLO...the suspension is BETTER too! How 'bout that?? So really...what's different Robert? It's all just the same as when Aaron was racing and winning on stock suspension then innit? If it's what you've got..you've just gotta get on and race. What part of that don't you understand?

slowpoke

28th June 2009, 12:24

The suspension regulations rules for 2010 have been locked in for some time, before that MNZ conference. Nothing is decided beyond and its going to committee hearings from here on in.
Aaron was I believe an invite from the pro stock suspension lobby and really he should have known better. His days of racing proddy bikes were when there was a lot less horsepower, flimsy frames and less footprint to challenge tyres. The tyres were also a lot less developed / focused than they are now and more forgiving. That was the past and we are not going back there.
Production Superbikes probably have about the same horsepower as the WSBK bikes Aaron used to race and if Honda had turned up with stock production suspension for him to race with I imagine he would have laughed in their faces! So on that basis his presence had no credibility. ( I have absolutely no personal issues with Aaron )
There is also one suspension tuner who has been in the road race game only a little over two years, if the rules change to production based he will make more money than dealing with aftermarket ( as would I ) I call that vested interest.
We should keep up with the rest of the world and not aspire to third world mentality. Recessions dont last forever. At VMCC round 2 there were 34 bikes in the Superbike / 600 field and 90% were fitted with aftermarket suspension, 2 that werent have now ordered aftermarket either as new or secondhand.
The numbers and equipment are there!!!! Its a matter of re-organising the Nationals to attract those riders.

Yep, Aaron is a living legend and seems like a great bloke as well, but as knowledgeable as he is about racing bikes it's a long time since he had to actually pay for anything regarding racing, and that's what the suspension issue is about.

Sure you can turn a fast lap on a modern bike on stock suspension but we want to be able to turn those laps consistently and at a reasonable cost over a full couple of season's competition. The fact that aftermarket suspension makes bikes quicker is secondary to the fact that it also has the potential to make them cheaper to race in the long term.

Robert Taylor

28th June 2009, 13:43

I understand more than you think I do Robert.

While Aarons proddie bikes back then did have less HP...and the frames were shittier...the tyres smaller (although an FZR1000 used a 180 from memory)...

So what? Todays frames are stiffer and better....the brakes are better...the tyres better...and HELLO...the suspension is BETTER too! How 'bout that?? So really...what's different Robert? It's all just the same as when Aaron was racing and winning on stock suspension then innit? If it's what you've got..you've just gotta get on and race. What part of that don't you understand?

If stock suspension was THAT good there wouldnt be any need of aftermarket suppliers making better stuff and there wouldnt have been immense worldwide growth in that market. And no its not the same as it was back then, its not as simplistic as your comfort zone fools you into believing. I note that you dont race a 600 or 1000.
Dredge through all the multitudes of posts explaining the issues. Or choose to be blind to the reality,

Crasherfromwayback

28th June 2009, 14:03

If stock suspension was THAT good there wouldnt be any need of aftermarket suppliers making better stuff and there wouldnt have been immense worldwide growth in that market. And no its not the same as it was back then, its not as simplistic as your comfort zone fools you into believing. I note that you dont race a 600 or 1000.
Dredge through all the multitudes of posts explaining the issues. Or choose to be blind to the reality,

There's an after market for cams too Robert...and clutch levers...and footpegs. So what? Have I raced a 600 or a thou? Nope. Only a KX500, a KR1S and SP...an RS250 Honda, a GPZ1100, an 883 and an RMZ450. That's the road race side of things. Couldn't tell you how many different moto-x bikes I've raced. I have no doubt if I was given the opportunity to race a modern 600 or thou it'd be no real problem. They're all just motorcycles. You know...handle bars...seat...footpegs and levers. One for the clutch...one for the front brake...and of course...the go fast grip!

Robert Taylor

28th June 2009, 14:13

There's an after market for cams too Robert...and clutch levers...and footpegs. So what? Have I raced a 600 or a thou? Nope. Only a KX500, a KR1S and SP...an RS250 Honda, a GPZ1100, an 883 and an RMZ450. That's the road race side of things. Couldn't tell you how many different moto-x bikes I've raced. I have no doubt if I was given the opportunity to race a modern 600 or thou it'd be no real problem. They're all just motorcycles. You know...handle bars...seat...footpegs and levers. One for the clutch...one for the front brake...and of course...the go fast grip!

So you work for a shop that has over the years sold lots of aftermarket shock absorbers. To cure known deficiencies / shortcomings with ride comfort, ride height control and rapid tyre wear. Same issues for cruisers and sportbikes.
Are you telling your principals and customers that really there is no need and they need to toughen up, no problem???
Do I tell all the people that come to me that they are just imagining things?

Pussy

28th June 2009, 14:24

There is also one suspension tuner who has been in the road race game only a little over two years, if the rules change to production based he will make more money than dealing with aftermarket ( as would I ) I call that vested interest.

Is this the guy who was telling me that he flew F-4s for the USAF in Afghanistan.... and that he has flown DC3s on agricultural operations (I've been around/in the industry since the early 80s, never heard of him!) etc etc?

People will see through it.
He has a black belt in bullshit

codgyoleracer

29th June 2009, 08:35

No and yes.

As per my first post in this thread that particular long track throws up some major setup compromises and tyre wear issues, it gets a whole lot worse in the ridiculously cold temps we race in.
Some very valid points have been raised by Glen, Glen and GSVR etc. Here are a few more;

1) Many of the new tyres we purchase are not new at all! They are often up to 3 years old and as Shaun has eluded to may have been subject to unacceptably wide temperature fluctuations in storage. Unacceptable but then consumers price demands may in effect be driving part of that .

2) For consistent and acceptable tyre performance they should be no older than 1 year old.

3) NZ is a very price concious market and I would imagine that some of the tyre distributors may purchase ''specials'' from the manufacturers. The specials relating to price specials. You get good batches of home baking and not so good batches. The baking also has a storage lifespan. Ditto for tyres.

4) If you are using hand me downs then likely the tyres are well past their best and will exhibit issues more readily

5) There is a temperature operating window for tyres and compounds, that ''window'' has got a lot narrower even over the last couple of years.

6) Soft compound tyres on cold tracks are a recipe for disaster, much sooner

7) SUSPENSION SETUP is indeed a huge factor. Yes you can screw tyres if the setup with your top shelf suspension is off. Point of fact the springing / preload etc has to often be firmer in the winter months to help build heat into the tyres. But with aftermarket suspension there are readily available spring options and the ability to revalve quickly using a setting bank of alternative damping curves / characteristics. Try that with a stock shock and also allow much much more time for revalve.
And I have to say it spring supply and exchange for Ohlins springs is in NZ VERY LIBERAL. In all other markets that I know of you have to purchase and own your own spring options. This makes a mockery of those that chastise my operation of being in it entirely for the money.

8) Tyre warmers should heat to no more than 75 degrees celsius. Tyres are like cakes. You can overcook them and ruin them. And how many heat cycles had many of the tyres used at the weekend been through?

And so on.....MISHY WHERE ARE YOU? You will be able to describe the technicalities of tyres much better than me.

QUOTE:
That popular brand, is probally the popular brand that is bringing in 2 year old tyres to sell to it;s customers here, for a cheaoish price, with high margins in them for importer, as they purchased them cheap, due to the age of the tyre?

Of course, I am only guessing ha ha ha yea write, i looked at 12 tyres last weekend, that were all 2 years old, yet just purchased
NEW here in the last month- strooth
__________________
shaun@motodynamix.co.nz

You guys do realise - that if you start pointing fingers at the tyre guys ,- they will start pointing back aye......... :-)

Shaun

29th June 2009, 10:50

QUOTE:
That popular brand, is probally the popular brand that is bringing in 2 year old tyres to sell to it;s customers here, for a cheaoish price, with high margins in them for importer, as they purchased them cheap, due to the age of the tyre?

Of course, I am only guessing ha ha ha yea write, i looked at 12 tyres last weekend, that were all 2 years old, yet just purchased
NEW here in the last month- strooth
__________________
shaun@motodynamix.co.nz

You guys do realise - that if you start pointing fingers at the tyre guys ,- they will start pointing back aye......... :-)

Maybe it will make them bring in current stock, instead of old stuff then!

Robert Taylor

29th June 2009, 11:42

QUOTE:
That popular brand, is probally the popular brand that is bringing in 2 year old tyres to sell to it;s customers here, for a cheaoish price, with high margins in them for importer, as they purchased them cheap, due to the age of the tyre?

Of course, I am only guessing ha ha ha yea write, i looked at 12 tyres last weekend, that were all 2 years old, yet just purchased
NEW here in the last month- strooth
__________________
shaun@motodynamix.co.nz

You guys do realise - that if you start pointing fingers at the tyre guys ,- they will start pointing back aye......... :-)

Yes there is that risk, but is this an unsatisfactory state of affairs, and people have a right to know that all is not what it seems.