Choose a turn style

[bikemike]

Recently, I have noticed a factor in bad cornering which I was not fully aware of before. I thought I'd share and see what others' thoughts are. If it's been posted elsewhere, I'm sure some librarian will point me there...

Even though I understand counter steering and its part in cornering, and even though I think my cornering lines are pretty good. Sometimes I get an uneasy feeling and I know that my corner was less than optimal. If I'm distracted it can be bloody shite.

I have an idea what's causing it.

There are three categories of body position in the corner:

bolt upright mr policeman, old timer
lay it down crosser/motard anarchist
hanging off cool crew


I remember discussing this at the training session we had last year here. I use them all. (would a cool copper be an anarchist?) The problem I've found is that whilst I can execute all three styles quite happily, sometimes I am not choosing.

That is, I see the corner, I look round it, choose my line and speed but I have not selected a cornering style. The result is a wooden tippy toes feeling which is not very nice. It's pretty dangerous actually as It can lead to target fixation, inappropriate braking, brain freeze or others. Essentially this is you your body and your bike fighting. It's a bit like the feeling you get when you pull anchors but forget to roll off fully. It's worse though; you are failing to negotiate the corner...

Many corners can be done any of the three ways. But if you don't pick ONE or them alone, it goes pear shaped.

I notice this most on smaller roundabouts. Here I fail to choose between upright and lay down. When I realise what's going on here, I think, if it's grippy I lay the bike in more to recover my turning radius. If it's greasy I find the mistake usually came about because I'm tense - so I relax and it comes right.

Occasionally I notice it on wider bends, when I fail to choose between upright and hang off. When I realise what's going on I get the inside elbow forward and down and look deeper into the bend.

So what I'm saying is nothing about the three styles (or any others you might have) or anything indeed about the physics of cornering, but specifically about the benefits of making a conscious decision on your cornering style for each corner. A bit like selecting a gear, a speed, a line.

You have to choose your cornering style too. I've been playing with this for a little bit, I think it helps.

I was going to grab some photos to illustrate, but perhaps it's not needed and I'd rather hear others' ideas. Thoughts?

[Gremlin]

To a certain degree, I agree, however, I think its more the mind. When you're nervous/unsure about a corner, the bike is unsettled, making it seem worse.

When you're confident/happy, so is the bike, making it easier...

I use all styles, sometimes multiple in a single corner... its fun! :done:

[Conquiztador]

I have lately been riding a K100 I picked up for a song. She needed work on suspension, tyres and more. As a result she was a pain in the corners. My cornering style has always been one of "old skool" where I let the bike do the leaning and I tuck my self in. None of this ass sliding over the seat and knee out stuff. Or speedway style (I used to ride solos years ago). It has never changed through the years. I feel comfy with that. I am a cruizer rider from way back but have had some faster semi-race bikes.

Now with this K100 as she was I could not use my normal style. Back end and forks would wiggle all over the place. So there was two options: slow around corners and then ride like she was stolen on straights, or leave bike standing up and hang off the side in the corners. As I hate slowing down the option was hanging all out. It does work and it is not tricky. Quite cool actually. But farkin tiring. So for me it is not a natural option. Now when I have done some work on her and improved the cornering capabilities heaps I have reverted back to my favored style. I feel more in control and can focus on what I do instead of trying to slide all over the place. So for me it is not about deciding on a style. It is only one style that applies.

But that is just me. And I am far from a RR rider.

[idleidolidyll]

Frankly, I'd have to say that if making a choice between the three styles is tending to screw up your corner, you're not concentrating enough or going far too fast for your skill level/road conditions.

Riding quickly on the road and racing require completely different styles altogether if you wanna be an old rider.

On the race track you know nothing is coming the other way, you know what obstacles are or are not there, you know there is no gravel or pothole halfway around the bend and you know that if you fall, there will be some level of run off, hay bale, ambulance etc to make a difference to your outcome. On the track you know you can take any line in, brake late or lean way way over, and you can screw it up a bit or make that pass without serious fear of loss of life or limb.

On the road you must ALWAYS expect the road to be a mess just out of sight with a 36 wheel truck coming the other way and a slip on your side so you have to use a pencil thin 'line' on the corner. To ride any other way is crazy: you'll get away with it 100 times, 1000 times but the 'next time' you'll be in hospital or in a wooden box.

My 2c is to pick a 'style' before you start the ride and stick to it for the whole ride. Trying to change styles to suit every corner on the road introduces an extra bunch of thought processes that are going to delay your reaction times.

[YellowDog]

You say you already have the skills, but you are just making mistakes on some occasions. Personally I think the problem is all in your head (not intended as an insult).

If you relax and don't think about the corner, only your speed, your natural ability will kick in and take you around the corner smoothly.

No need to over analyse it. Just do it.

[bikemike]

My 2c is to pick a 'style' before you start the ride and stick to it for the whole ride. Trying to change styles to suit every corner on the road introduces an extra bunch of thought processes that are going to delay your reaction times.

I wondered about this, but I do change styles on the ride, but not normally in a single corner! I adjust according to what I can see, how fast I am riding, how focussed I am. There are some nice climbing turns on the Akaroa ride where there is good visibility and grip and I do get off the bike to the inside a little, get my weight forward a bit and it gets the bike nice and stable. Most of the way though I'd ride upright and concentrate on being relaxed and smooth. In traffic and around town either end, I'd drop the bike on the inside. I don't change for change sake, but the road changes and different styles suit different circumstances.

Don't get me wrong, this is not a common problem for me, but I just wondered if it is indecision rather than not being relaxed, wrong tyre pressures and so on. Certainly, If I make a commitment to the turning style on a more unusual corner, then I sail through much more sweetly than just trying to let it happen. I wonder if it's just these borderline corners, that I might take either way. If I don't choose, I don't always get it right.

I think the not being relaxed ends up in a poor execution of one style. being indecisive feels more crossed up.

[MIXONE]

I have never tried to think my way around a corner.Just relax and enjoy the ride.
Point in case.
One day I was racing a guy on a katana.He was in front and I was using him as my breaking point.One corner was quite tight and as we hit it I was thinking "fark I would be braking by now if I was in front".He went into a tank slapper moments before I did.I was spending so much time watching him cartwheel down the road that I completely forgot about my bike and as a consequence relaxed and the bike rode itself round the corner!

[MSTRS]

There are three categories of body position in the corner:

bolt upright mr policeman, old timer
lay it down crosser/motard anarchist
hanging off cool crew




Those are the basics - there are styles 'within' them.
At the end of the day, the 'policeman' style is all you really need on the road. Perhaps coupled with a shift of upper body to the inside of the corner.
We all find that one style suits us best and generally stick with that. Just practice using the ONE style that feels right for you. Once you find yourself not thinking about it anymore, then your skill has progressed to the point where you may wish to experiment.
YellowDog has it sussed.

[slofox]

I tend to stick with just one "method". I tuck down on the tank and stay as low as possible (actually I am just too lazy to stay upright...:whistle:) My preference is to stay with the bike, maybe drop the shoulder if I have to push it a bit more than expected. I don't climb around all over the place. I like to stay one with the bike, with no tension in the arms at all - just hang the arms off the grips - and let the machine do the work. Which it willingly does and does best when I interfere with it least. Modern bikes are way better at this than the old clunkers I cut my teeth on. Which is why I like 'em so much.

[Retch]

I don't even know how I'm cornering when I'm on a bigger bike, it just seems to happen - its rare that I am trying to go beyond myself though, thats when I get into trouble.

The best bet is always to just ride within yourself right?

[idleidolidyll]

Mate, I know the Akaroa ride and rode it damn near every weekend for 10 years.

Go to the Hilltop and turn back to face Little River, turn off your engine and push your bike a bit until it gets rolling. Now coast ALL the way down the hill trying not to touch the brakes if possible but be very wary of coming up behind cars as you will have a hell of a job getting past them. Note how close to Little River township you get and do it over again.
In fact if you can do it, get a mate to ride slowly behind you with power on holding up the traffic and make sure you leave a good 5 mins between the last car ahead and when you take off.
If you can learn to be smooth without any power at all, you'll be taking a big step toward real skill with the luxury of an engine.

There used to be a memorail ride to and from the Hilltop each year, dunno if it's still running. Some of us used to pretty much block the road so we could have a 'race' at low speed like this without any danger of sardine cans taking us out.
Fat guys who are brave enough to leave off the brakes have inertia on their side and can often get further along than skinny chicks on little bikes.

[beyond]

You really need to decide what style you will use for road riding and just stick with it. No point having heaps of tricks up your sleeve and not being able to decide which one to use when the chips are down. Best pound the daylights out of one trick and get it down to pat so when the crap hit's the fan you are on auto.

I do not have the luxury of a quick handling, light supersports bike and deal with minimal ground clearance when pushing really hard.

I have found I can ride hard all day without problems by countersteeering a lot, braking late as a heavy bike allows this and leaning my whole upper body sideways while keeping my knees in. I shift close to the tank and lean my shoulder well into the corners. The old girl handles quite well but you get to know why they call it a muscle bike.

I believe knee down on the road, hanging off like a monkey is going to have you heading off in the opposite direction like a mascot on the grill of the latest overseas visitors camper van. :)

[bogan]

i still class myself as a noob rider, so take my advice as such :bleh: but i read a book that ays its much safer to shift bodyweight to the inside of a corner, this keeps the pegs well away from the ground, and keeps the suspension at a high angle from the road surface where it operates better. As such if i go round a corner in either of the other two styles at significant speed it feels horrible.
Of course when on my dirtbike i lay it down crosser styles.

[bikemike]

Go to the Hilltop and turn back to face Little River, turn off your engine and push your bike a bit until it gets rolling. Now coast ALL the way down the hill trying not to touch the brakes if possible but be very wary of coming up behind cars as you will have a hell of a job getting past them. Note how close to Little River township you get and do it over again.

Reckon there's a couple of tight corners on the way down that would have me on the brakes!



I believe knee down on the road, hanging off like a monkey is going to have you heading off in the opposite direction like a mascot on the grill of the latest overseas visitors camper van. :)
Absolutely agree, can't condone it. I've never had my knee down and have absolutely no wish too. I'm just talking about making those rising corners a little more comfy. Just getting over the front a little, keeping the bike up a little, easing any stepping out etc. No more than that.

There seems to be a consensus on picking one style and doing it well. I guess if you are a sports rider or a motard rider that might work, or at least seem like what's going on. I'm still pretty convinced I use all three styles quite comfortably and naturally on every ride.

You know that feeling you get when you are walking down stairs and suddenly you lose that automatic ability to put one foot in front of the other, and you get mixed up feet? Never happen? Just me? Shit. Well, what I''m describing feels a bit like that. Just occasionally, the automatic systems are not there.

I don't think thinking about it has got me into those situations. On the contrary, it has taken some thinking after the fact to work out what's going on. I know it's not just me either. I have followed many riders who seem to ride nice and smooth and then for some reason hit the brakes half way round one corner, or seem to ride the bike like a contrary pillion on one corner they don't like, or freeze up and coast the bike round. I don't think it's always lack of cornering ability, sometimes I think it's riding the cusp of two cornering styles, automatically or consciously.

[bikemike]

i still class myself as a noob rider, so take my advice as such Don't discount your advice as a noob. Sometimes those least familiar with something notice stuff that more experienced folks have internalised, acclimatised or plain forgotten!

[MSTRS]

Something else to consider...
You've heard of this mythical state 'the zone'?
It is real.
Stop trying so hard. Relax. Slow down a little. Stay off the brakes and control your speed with the throttle. Let it flow. You will find yourself in TheZone™. Your cornering 'style' will come automatically.
Ever tried going against the advice for riding in high winds? Doesn't feel good, does it? Tense. Always correcting. Not in control. Same thing as above.

[Devil]

Go to the Hilltop and turn back to face Little River, turn off your engine and push your bike a bit until it gets rolling. Now coast ALL the way down the hill trying not to touch the brakes if possible but be very wary of coming up behind cars as you will have a hell of a job getting past them. Note how close to Little River township you get and do it over again.

Just dont do this if you have Servo-assist on your GS! Haha!

[2wheeldrifter]

I think your thinking to much also.... If your tinking of "what" style you should take this corner at... you are wasting valuable time as you still have, your speed, braking, road/condition etc, environment/hazards to attend too. In a perfect world for some it will become second nature as it is for you to change gear, more fingers to pull clutch,adjust throttle,move foot to change gear etc.... you do all that without thinking of doing it aye? it will come, you will find a style subconsciously that suits you.You will find you did a perfect corner without thinking about :) The only time you will change that is when you push yourself and your bike on the track.... that is really just changing your approach to that :scooter:

My 2 cents worth... :scooter:

[Mikkel]

Relax.

Don't do it! :)


Nah, in all seriousness I think that is the most important thing. Just relax and enjoy the ride.

But in regards to cornering styles - foot out doesn't work that well with a faired sportsbike. On the motard I find that I change styles depending upon the corner - if it is either gravel or a very tight slow corners I'll do foot out. Anything above 50 km/h on tarmac I either remain neutral or lean in - depending upon mood and pace.
Foot out is good if you can not trust the surface properly - but it won't help you much if you are going faster than you can actually kick the bike back up again if you start sliding. (this is of course not counting deliberately loosing traction on the rear-tyre - while backing it in may be considered a fourth cornering style you'd have to be extremely keen to use it on public paved roads)

[bikemike]

I'm feeling a little shied off this topic, but I'm not all done yet!

Sure, the zone. Love it. Don't know anyone who can pull it out of the hat on demand.

It's well known that what appears to be second-guessing, sixth sense, supreme effortlessness, comes in fact from rigorous and unyielding practice.

You can only relax your mind on any skill when you have executed it so many times that it can be called on at will, or subconsciously. It becomes integrated.

I don't see how what I am proposing is any different to any skill that anyone here will labour over and over in the pursuit of flow, of internalising that skill, for the purposes of perfection and getting in the zone.

You don't get in the zone by being crap. How do you get good?

You practice your lines I assume. You go over and over them working out how to improve, especially track addicts. You practice your braking, your emergency braking, countersteering. Maybe you practice your hazard recognition, using computer assisted learning, or commentary driving. You practice being relaxed, getting your groins to relax, your belly to settle, your arms to soften and so on. You practice riding without touching the brakes, slow speed riding, do some dirt, some track and so on. Practice practice.

And what happens if something starts to go off the boil? Do you simply get into the zone and it goes away? On a ride it's very difficult to do that on demand. Actually, I think for me, the ability to assess how close or far I am from the zone and adjust my riding to suit is my ultimate defensive riding skill. I feel this especially when riding in town; if I can feel smooth and safe with everything milling around every which way then I am in my zone. If I keep missing things, start doing double-takes and so on I ease off and ride more conservatively. When I teach anyone this skill I walk them through a busy mall, trying to be smooth and steady with everyone apparently randomly walking all over the place. It's good and safe practice for this skill.

When I judge that I am in my zone and all is flow, I can get off a fast-paced ride with GSXR-1000 and 750 riders (who don't ride blind) and feel rested and elated. When my state of flow is down, I ease off. When it's buggered I stop for a walk, a coffee, a peppermint tea! When it is because of stress, lack of sleep etc I put the bike back in the garage.

So in fact, I still believe that like any other skill, if you are having problems like I described in corners, then some practice with deliberate focus on that skill will help. It's that practice that helps put it in the tool box. There's no point glossing over it, making an effort to get into the zone.

I think it's an element of our skillset and practice that is underated and overlooked. So much time and debate and worry on entry speed, apex, countersteering, line, vanishing point, and so on. No one says go practice your three turning styles and then practice using each of them. I just did.

Now go enjoy your ride again.

[MSTRS]

Sure, the zone. Love it. Don't know anyone who can pull it out of the hat on demand.

It's well known that what appears to be second-guessing, sixth sense, supreme effortlessness, comes in fact from rigorous and unyielding practice.



You are quite right. TheZone™ will only be achieved if you are in the right headspace. And that can only be achieved if you are relaxed. You are also right about practice. To the point where it all becomes 'automatic'.
What I was trying to say is that if you try too hard, you won't relax, in which case the ride becomes what you describe....disjointed, unsettled, unenjoyable hard work. Instead of practicing body position styles, rather slow down, relax and concentrate on smooth flow. The skill of being smooth is not an easy thing to achieve, but I think it is more basic than where you put your shoulders, bum etc. If you concentrate on smooth, your body will naturally tend to assume the correct (for you) attitude without conscious thought.

[bogan]

Instead of practicing body position styles, rather slow down, relax and concentrate on smooth flow. The skill of being smooth is not an easy thing to achieve, but I think it is more basic than where you put your shoulders, bum etc. If you concentrate on smooth, your body will naturally tend to assume the correct (for you) attitude without conscious thought.

I agree, if you practice riding smooth, speed will come automatically.

As you ride an BMW R1200GS i dunno what the best style would be for the road, a small lean off the bike into the corner is always good from a technical point of view, but its really whatever feels best to you, just pick one type and go with it.

[CookMySock]

I have only one cornering method, but I vary its' degree.

I start with simply leaning so my chin and shoulder is to one side, and I am sitting on one bum cheek. Usually this is plenty for the bike to casually roll into a corner. Touring mode!

If I am moving more quickly, I will combine it with a small bar push, or a more exaggerated shoulder movement.

If I am moving plenty quickly, or I detect some substantial movement is required, then I will stand and put my my whole body out, opposite bar push, and wait and then concentrate and steer with the bars. I know I have maximum cornering ability available in the position.. well, my bikes does.. not so much for me.. ;)

So for me it is about degree, and situational awareness. Some days I struggle with the bar push when I am already mid-corner.. some days I don't. Some days are just like that.

What does not, and never has, and never will work for me, is riding along quickly and not thinking about it. I repeatedly find myself up shit creek doing that, consequently requiring large mind-fuck type bar-pushes and large angles of lean, and if I am unlucky - touches of tyre on white line or worse. :pinch:

Always engage brain.

Steve

[crazyhorse]

Someone said in another post - that you and the bike are one. Relax and go with the flow - often the corner is gone before you know it - maybe you are concentrating too hard on making it perfect. Just ride and enjoy!:yes:

[Leyton]

Hey Bikemike,

I too have had this problem on some rides, and I have found that it is a lapst in concerntration and "survival reactions" making me feel at ease.

Managed to work out the issues on my old Hyo, the new bike I am back to square one learning the bike again.

Anyhow.. hire out the book everyone is on about "Twist of the Wrist" it is quite a good book, It touch's alot on the phycological side of bike control. I found it a great book to give me something to think about.

I also have made a decission to get back into minibike riding so I can be a little loose in a safe envionment to train out some survival reactions.

Good luck dude.

Leyton

[crazyhorse]

My thoughts are, it would depend on the style of your bike, and the speed in which you intend to corner in. But most importantly, relax with the bike and if in doubt, lean more, and just let it happen:niceone:

[YellowDog]

Hey Steve, you have just given me another excuse to ride my bike.

Arse cheek rises are damn good exercise. I don't know if I was doing them but now that I know it is great exercise I will make sure that I do.

So the right cheek turns you left and the left cheek turns you right........Right ?

[caseye]

lol, Don't forget to lift when approaching a large lip or other impediment to good smooth forward momentum.Otherwise you may end up only able to turn one good cheek and a badly bruised one.
"Ride(always!) to your own ability" exceed that and every corner is going to turn to custard.
Zoning doesn't have to involve going fast or faster than normal, it's simply when everything clicks and every corner has a beginning and and end and you "just do it"
Relax, enjoy the ride, read each corner before entering and plan on coming out the other side, on the correct side of the road, moving faster than when you went in and still in complete control.
"Those who fail to plan,plan to fail"

[AllanB]

It appears I fall into "1..... old school" Every now and then a knee may pop out the side, but frankly if you are needing to slide ya arse off on every corner I think you are going way too fast on a public road with zero respect to what's around that blind corner.

My favourite is the people who slide over and pop a knee out on a corner that I could easily take at the same speed side-saddle! Gives me a good laugh every time.:bleh:

I out to enjoy the ride - the speed varies with how I'm feeling and traffic etc - some days a cruise, some a lot quicker. As stated don't over think it, and go with the flow.

The worst thing I find is, in a group ride trying to keep up with someone who is riding above your personal safety zone - you just end up f-ing up each corner. Button off a fraction and you'll find when you stop they will be just removing their helmet when you pull up.

Theres too many posts on KB after a group ride of someone coming off.

[bogan]

It appears I fall into "1..... old school" Every now and then a knee may pop out the side, but frankly if you are needing to slide ya arse off on every corner I think you are going way too fast on a public road with zero respect to what's around that blind corner.

My favourite is the people who slide over and pop a knee out on a corner that I could easily take at the same speed side-saddle! Gives me a good laugh every time.:bleh:


I do that, not because I need to, its just good technique, allows the suspension to cope with bumps much more effectively, and feels cool too:msn-wink:

[ducatilover]

My favourite is the people who slide over and pop a knee out on a corner that I could easily take at the same speed side-saddle! Gives me a good laugh every time.:bleh:


That may be the case, I have no doubts about other people going faster than me whilst I have a cheek off the seat and the knee propped out. BUT, I am most comfortable and ride smoother like this, I find [it may just be me] when hanging off a bit I can use my outer knee against the tank to take the majority of my weight, leaving my arms happier to countersteer, brake etc, and also less input to the bars mid corner to help the suspension do it's job without me being ham fisted and unsettling it and going all slappy. I also like to sit about halfway back on the seat through a corner, any furter back and my bike doesn't drop in too good and feels vague, further foward and I find myself relying on my arms to hold me, thus, slappy/sloppy cornering. It may just be me, but I am most comfortable like that and I feel the bike "likes" that [is that odd?]

As MSTRS said, relax. Try too hard and you may be putting too much weight on the front, or, not going as smooth = dangerous and most likely slower. I like a good smooth ride at a pace I am comfortable at and KNOW I am safely in the limits of the bike and myself. The latter has a relatively low limit.

My rant over :first:

[CookMySock]

[...] a cheek off the seat and the knee propped out. BUT, I am most comfortable and ride smoother like this..and its fun, and it's the best position to corner the bike harrd from - in the unlikely event you were forced to. The only complication with it, is it reverses the initial force on the bars which complicates the manoevre, but if you are past that, then all good!


I also like to sit about halfway back on the seat through a corner, any furter back and my bike doesn't drop in too good and feels vague, further foward and I find myself relying on my arms to hold me, thus, slappy/sloppy cornering. It may just be me, but I am most comfortable like that and I feel the bike "likes" that [is that odd?] My bike likes weight further back. If I slide my ass right back it gives me the "on rails" feel mid-corner. Quite likely this varies per-bike.

A thing I recently learned was, holding the bars with a firm grip makes the bike really tippy at larger levels of lean. I think what is happening, is I bar-push to tip in further but hold a displacement against the bars rather than a force, not allowing the bars to turn inward when the bike leans further. The result is, when I tip in deep with a big countersteer push, the bars must be allowed to turn in after the bar-push or else the bike unexpectedly dives WAYYY the hell in deeper than I wanted, resulting in a very very strong reaction to stand the bike up. :nono:

The solution was to take my weight off the bars and steer with my fingers and wrists, not my forearms and palms.

Steve

[ducatilover]

A thing I recently learned was, holding the bars with a firm grip makes the bike really tippy at larger levels of lean. I think what is happening, is I bar-push to tip in further but hold a displacement against the bars rather than a force, not allowing the bars to turn inward when the bike leans further. The result is, when I tip in deep with a big countersteer push, the bars must be allowed to turn in after the bar-push or else the bike unexpectedly dives WAYYY the hell in deeper than I wanted, resulting in a very very strong reaction to stand the bike up. :nono:

The solution was to take my weight off the bars and steer with my fingers and wrists, not my forearms and palms.

Steve I find my bike is very sensitive to where I sit. Too far back, no! Too far forwards = crash I think. I may try the countersteer with the fingers, I use very slight pressure through the palms. "holding" the bars will only further complicate matters [in my mind] not letting the suspension or forks move as they want and upsetting the balance. :shit: