Drivers' aids?

[gatch]

Do electronic "driver aids" make safer drivers ?? Do people that drive vehicles equipped with such technology rely on it ?

This is some questions I asked some mates the other night and got alot of mixed responses...

My opinion was that these things wouldn't be necessary if people were more learned behind the wheel, that they are just another thing to point the blame at when they do crash and that they are a further example of the dumbing down of society.

Discussion please..

[MIXONE]

The more "safety" aids there are the more people feel bullet proof and the less they concentrate on their own bad driving.

[lb99]

cut the seat belts and put a big spike in the center of the steeringwheel, then we will see a whole lot more care on the roads.......

cars are too safe imo

"....now lets see what happens when the car without stability control tries to correct its self...."

nothing will happen you fool, because the driver has to correct but he doesnt know how........

paddock racing as kids makes for better drivers I reckon

[YellowDog]

Not all drivers are the same however I would say that IMO - Having a satnav with a video output is an unnecessary distraction that can lead to a serious loss of concentration.

[Winston001]

Our cars are faster, quieter, and handle better than they ever have. Anyone who remembers early Cortinas, Hillmans, Wolsleys etc etc knows that.

So cars are easy to drive fast in comfort. The modern cabin is so insulated that there isn't a real sensation of speed. The consequence is that if things go pear-shaped, drivers are unprepared.

Ideally we'd all have rally-type skills and do refresher courses every 6 months but that's totally unrealistic. So we have to build in safety features.

I don't believe for a moment that this lulls people into complacency. Remove the safety belts, airbags, and traction control and some people would still drive to their personal limits.

[gatch]

I don't thnk that every driver out there should be a racing legend, just smart enough to realise when they are doing something dumb, have some spacial awareness etc.

[Laava]

Had the same conv the other day. Lady I am working for said that Electronic Stability control should be std on all cars. I asked her if she thought that that would be safer? Oh yes of course it would be? looking at me like "duh". I think that a lot of accident speeds would be higher as people would think they were crash proof. Of course we can't just go out and experiment so I guess we will find out in the future if it has a huge effect.

[AD345]

I have an 06 Accord V6 that came loaded with all the electronic and physical drivers aids/safety stuff. None of which affects how I drive it - it is the chassis dynamics and engine response that determines that.

Having said that however I did have the VSA light flick on once when giving it a bit of a push along the on ramp onto the Dunedin motorway one winters day - no drama from the car and I still entered the motorway at a good speed. I found out later that 2 other cars subsequently speared off at that point due to a strip of black ice that ran the width of the road - I never saw it.

[p.dath]

Had the same conv the other day. Lady I am working for said that Electronic Stability control should be std on all cars. I asked her if she thought that that would be safer? Oh yes of course it would be? looking at me like "duh". I think that a lot of accident speeds would be higher as people would think they were crash proof. Of course we can't just go out and experiment so I guess we will find out in the future if it has a huge effect.

I don't think I know anyone who has got a car with ABS, ESP, air bags, or any other electrical/computer controlled safety feature in a car that suddenly started driving faster because of it.

Typically people drive at the speed limit, and don't suddenly go faster because of the electrics in their car.

[swbarnett]

The term you're looking for is "Risk Homeostasis".

As humans we are all programmed for a certain level of risk. The actual level varies from one individual to another. There is a natural tendancy that the safer life gets the more we look for opportunities to return our lives to our own personal risk level.

[Dare]

The term you're looking for is "Risk Homeostasis".

As humans we are all programmed for a certain level of risk. The actual level varies from one individual to another. There is a natural tendancy that the safer life gets the more we look for opportunities to return our lives to our own personal risk level.

Is that actual risk or the sensation of risk? Could we make cars feel more risky than they actually are?

[Laava]

I don't think I know anyone who has got a car with ABS, ESP, air bags, or any other electrical/computer controlled safety feature in a car that suddenly started driving faster because of it.

Typically people drive at the speed limit, and don't suddenly go faster because of the electrics in their car.
No, of course I don't mean everyone! Where I live, at the south of Whanga's, I can hear young guys going as fast as they can round the local corners. Our place overlooks an industrial area which becomes a racetrack after work, basically everyday, and they spill over into the hill where we are. There are LOTS of them, lots of crashes and sometimes deaths. 2 girls 3 weeks ago. These are the people I mean.

[CookMySock]

I don't think I know anyone who has got a car with ABS, ESP, air bags, or any other electrical/computer controlled safety feature in a car that suddenly started driving faster because of it. Typically people drive at the speed limit, and don't suddenly go faster because of the electrics in their car.Think carefully about that.. I suggest you are mistaken.

The only reason for ESC under acceleration is so you can accelerate harder.

The only reason for ABS is so you can brake harder.

Yeah ok, if you hit ice it will save your bacon, but in 30 years of driving I have never had a slide on ice - probably more to do with driving smoothly than there being no ice.

I have noticed the ABS in my Surf only a few times, and that was when pulling off the road onto the soft grass verge. Once I noticed it braking hard in a straight line on the seal, but I don't think I would want or need to stop faster than that.

It's the same for using 4WD on gravel roads - the difference over 2WD is enormous - so whats the point? Speed! I can drive like a lunatic on gravel roads in 4WD in complete safety.

Steve

[vifferman]

Once I noticed it braking hard in a straight line on the seal, but I don't think I would want or need to stop faster than that.
So, in an emergency, where an animule leaps out onto the road in front of you, or a car veers on to your side of the road, you don't think it would be an advantage to be able to brake very hard AND still be able to steer?

I think these drivers' aids are excellent, but I agree there's a tendency to become cosseted by them. I know having ABS sometimes I think, "Hey - you're travelling a bit close!", followed by, "Meh! I've got ABS..." And when I've had a 4WD car to go skiing, I've felt safer than in a 2WD one. But then I was safer, with more grip on dodgy road surfaces. But (however!) I used to thrash my Morris Minor to within an inch of its life: I had the speedo needle against the pin, left 4 black lines going around a corner, went through a t-intersection sideways, whereupon it rocked up onto 2 wheels and back down again...
So it kinda depends how imaginative you are and/or how much/often you think about safety. Having had a few crashes on the bike, and having been in a couple of vehicle accidents, I not infrequently have flashes of imagining being splattered to keep me in check when I might be driving/riding a little unsafely.

There's another downisde to all this technowizzery. My wife's Peugeot is coming up to 10 years old. According to the maintenance book, the airbags and seatbelt pretensioners are due for replacement. I bet it's fookn expensive....

[Beemer]

...My opinion was that these things wouldn't be necessary if people were more learned behind the wheel, that they are just another thing to point the blame at when they do crash and that they are a further example of the dumbing down of society...

The other half and I were having this same discussion last week! He said that while ABS and things like that were good, the ads on tv seem to imply that it doesn't matter how bad your driving is, they will save you when you stuff up. One shows a guy going off a corner and hitting gravel. Well, here's a thought, how about driving ON THE ROAD and then you won't have to try and correct your mistakes!

I had one bike with ABS and it was great when a stupid woman did a U-turn in front of me without any warning, but I used to practice braking anyway so it's likely I would have been fine without it.

As for our cars, none of them have it and we've survived all those years of driving without killing ourselves. The latest car we have has airbags, so that's quite reassuring to know they may help in the event of an accident, but people need to get past the "my car has all these safety features so I can drive like a total fuckwit and get away with it" mentality.

[scumdog]

Our cars are faster, quieter, and handle better than they ever have. Anyone who remembers early Cortinas, Hillmans, Wolsleys etc etc knows that.

So cars are easy to drive fast in comfort. The modern cabin is so insulated that there isn't a real sensation of speed. The consequence is that if things go pear-shaped, drivers are unprepared.

Ideally we'd all have rally-type skills and do refresher courses every 6 months but that's totally unrealistic. So we have to build in safety features.

I don't believe for a moment that this lulls people into complacency. Remove the safety belts, airbags, and traction control and some people would still drive to their personal limits.

The ol' tread-mill:
Cars are not safe so lets make 'em safer, cars are now safe so lets raise the speed-limit,
Cars aren't so safe at the new speed limit so lets make them safer, cars are even safer now so let's raise the speed-limit again....

Poor old Darwin must be fair spinning when he sees how we are stopping effwits from bumping themselves off with all the 'safety' things we have in our lives...

[Dare]

The ol' tread-mill:
Cars are not safe so lets make 'em safer, cars are now safe so lets raise the speed-limit,
Cars aren't so safe at the new speed limit so lets make them safer, cars are even safer now so let's raise the speed-limit again....

Poor old Darwin must be fair spinning when he sees how we are stopping effwits from bumping themselves off with all the 'safety' things we have in our lives...

I think Darwin is probably more preoccupied with the industry that lets people who can't technically have kids do just that. Nature is harsh but I wonder what percentage of the population could not breed/survive without our 'wonderful' advances in medicine? I'm not complaining though this same industry allows me to continue a certain pastime with a lovely feeling that if it all goes wrong I will (probably) wake up in a hospital bed.

http://www.ukmotorists.com/speed_history.asp

On 28 January 1896, Walter Arnold of East Peckham, Kent became the first person in Great Britain to be successfully charged with speeding. Travelling at approximately 8 mph, he had exceeded the 2 mph speed limit for towns. Fined 1 shilling (5p) plus costs, Arnold had been caught by a policeman who had given chase on a bicycle so began one of the most lucrative ways of making money by Local Authorities and the Exchequer

So yes, it would be safe to go to work every day at 2mph, but I imagine it would take a wee while!

Incidentally safety and the feeling of safety are two different things. This is one of the reasons SUV's are so popular.

[tigertim20]

this seems to be rather a chicken and egg conversation: ie, do we drive more loosely because we have these aids, or do the conditions and statistics derived from analysing our driving and the results require that they be developed and utilised?
I think there are alot of people out there who think that some of these driving aids automatically make them peter brock, but having said that, before all of these things came along, how many of you guys have fond memories of drag racing the ol ford, or hammering through the hills in a worked 302 chev, or racing the rx3 coupe......? People have always driven fast. Fuck if it saves my life, or the life of someone I love one day, I am all for these technologies, but I still think that driver training leaves rather alot wanting... abs is gonna do fuckall if you were fiddling with the radio when you killed someones kid who ran out into the street.........
6 of one, and half dozen of the other in my opinion!

[Hitcher]

I thought "driver aids" was what one got from sharing the road with fuckwits.

[Forest]

The term you're looking for is "Risk Homeostasis".

As humans we are all programmed for a certain level of risk. The actual level varies from one individual to another. There is a natural tendancy that the safer life gets the more we look for opportunities to return our lives to our own personal risk level.

Also known as "Risk Compensation".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

[swbarnett]

Is that actual risk or the sensation of risk? Could we make cars feel more risky than they actually are?
Good point. The human brain would never know the difference.

What proof do you have that you're not just a computer program inside the Matrix?

[CookMySock]

So, in an emergency, where an animule leaps out onto the road in front of you, or a car veers on to your side of the road, you don't think it would be an advantage to be able to brake very hard AND still be able to steer?I can already brake AND steer under any circumstances. If I fuck up and require all the benefits of the ABS on top of my huge driving experience, then who is the idiot? Certainly not the ABS.

The benefit of ABS as a safety net is very real. I'm glad I have it, but people who drive faster and faster because they can are going to have a problem eventually. I don't think normal people will do this.

Steve

[owner]

Who saw the GTR35 on the targa today?The more gadgets the better I reckon

[gatch]

Thinking about it some more today...

I wonder what the cost would be to install these corrective aids in a newly manufactured car, and would the money be better spent educating the new driver on how to make better decisions on the road ?

[scumdog]

Thinking about it some more today...

I wonder what the cost would be to install these corrective aids in a newly manufactured car, and would the money be better spent educating the new driver on how to make better decisions on the road ?

Now THERE'S a good comment!

Lots of training by a qualified instructor prior to licence being obtained - and a tough test.

And meaningful sentences for life threatening driving offences - and no, I am not refering to speeding.;)

[MisterD]

I think the best solution all round would be to have mandatory skid-pan experience as part of your driver training. It's kind of a sad fact that you really only find out what it means to reach the limits of you, and your vehicle by overstepping them, so better to do that in a more controlled environment.

In some ways I think these driver aids are a problem because you don't have so many warning signs that the older cars gave that you're pushing the limits...it's more of a digital..ok...ok...ok..oh fuck! kind of thing.

[ynot slow]

The old way of driving 30 yrs ago in underpowered rear wheel drive manual cars helps,the joy of reading in road code steer into the way the wheels face/skidding was good in a paddock.And no power steering usually,maybe disk brakes,made cars fun.

Now power steering,abs,airbags,autos make it easy to fuck up,oh and front drive predominate the roads.

[tigertim20]

Now THERE'S a good comment!

Lots of training by a qualified instructor prior to licence being obtained - and a tough test.

And meaningful sentences for life threatening driving offences - and no, I am not refering to speeding.;)


Ahhh, if only we could get that through the heads of those fuckin morons in parliament eh?

[Ixion]

Wouldn't it be simpler just to ban cars?

[gatch]

Na its not that simple, its like guns, drugs, smoking in bars etc. What is the root cause of these problems ? People are the problem, so ban people I say, cause they are fuckwits.

[scumdog]

Wouldn't it be simpler just to ban cars?

And have them riding motorbikes and sharing the roads with us instead??? - are you potty or something??

As if we haven't already got enough dumb-arse motorcyclists on the roads...:crazy: