Settling Maori claims. Someone explain.

[Molly]

Not meant to stir up a load of anti-anybody anything but just want to ask about the Maori land / financial settlements I see in the news from time to time. Particularly:

Is there an end in sight?
What happens to the money? Does it benefit or support Maori communities or individuals directly and in what way?
Where does the money come from? Surely one generation of Kiwis couldn't afford to settle long-standing, historic claims out of public money / their taxes?

[gatch]

To add to the above, why on earth should "ownership" (of the sea bed/foreshore) change hands anyway ?

[popelli]

Is there an end in sight?


of course there is an end in sight, every couple of years we make a large final settlement to settle all disputes

and then a couple of years later another large payment is made to settle all disputes

and then a couple of years later another large payment is made to settle all disputes

and then a couple of years later another large payment is made to settle all disputes

and then a couple of years later another large payment is made to settle all disputes

I had a guts full of this 10 years ago and left NZ for good as I was sick of being treated as a second class citizen

and then a couple of years later another large payment is made to settle all disputes

and then a couple of years later another large payment is made to settle all disputes

[Elysium]

What happens to the money?

Hmmm Pokies?

[Horney1]

I had a guts full of this 10 years ago and left NZ for good as I was sick of being treated as a second class citizen

and then a couple of years later another large payment is made to settle all disputes



Yep, one of the reasons I left to...

[duckonin]

Yep, one of the reasons I left to...

Yep that is just what the "white Mories, always wanting more", wanted you and all of us to do..Up em we were born here to..

[Dave Lobster]

....we were born here to..

...to what??

[tri boy]

There's are really good rugby league team that somebody should buy:innocent:

[MIXONE]

Easy answer is go up to the next maori you see and ask them how much they have recieved from previous settlements.I bet that unless they are wearing a suit or driving a Chrysler 300C the answer will be "Fuck all bro".

[Winston001]

New Zealand once had a reputation for being at the forefront of new ideas. We were the first nation to introduce the old age pension and the womans vote.

We have again taken the high moral ground by recognising and remedying historical injustices against Maori. Canada is doing the same for the Inuit.

The Waitangi Tribunal was established in 1975, so this process has been going on for 34 years. It isn't new.

Settlements come from Crown land, lump sums, and assets purchased by the Crown for that purpose. The burden of settlement is not imposed on a single generation, at 34 years we are already into our second generation. Also Crown land holdings date back to the 1840s.

[popelli]

The Waitangi Tribunal was established in 1975, so this process has been going on for 34 years. It isn't new.



Final settlements were made well before this date

have they done any good

I remember talking to a school friend over 30 years ago, he was moaning about the injustice of a fellow school leaver getting all his tools paid for on his apprenticeship paid for because he was a maori where as he had to pay for his own tools because he was white

No idea what happened to the maori or where his apprenticeship or tools went

But I do know where Mike Tomas went with having to pay for his own tools - California and he now owns Kiwi (Indian) Motocycles and remanufactures brand new 48 Indian Chiefs that he sells to the likes of Jay Leno

[sidecar bob]

Everytime this shit surfaces, some dumbass brown politician always has to say condescendingly "we need to address this so we can move forward together as a nation" what a fuckin load of shit.

[uso_lelei]

..............:yawn:

[hospitalfood]

you will not gain true understanding of the situation here, all you will do is feed the inner racist. and it sickens me to see it happening.

it is easier to blame and degrade others than to look at ourselves.
hitler and the jews is a prime example, a more contemporary one is destiny church.

if any of you have an open mind and truly want to understand the situation it will take a lot of study to get your head around it. i suspect you would rather blame the natives and continue in your racist ways.

[Dave Lobster]

No idea what happened to the maori or where his apprenticeship or tools went


I think we do (http://www.cashconverters.co.nz/) :yes:



i suspect you would rather blame the natives and continue in your racist ways.

Blame them for what?
Being 70% of the prison population, despite being less than 10% of the population as a whole?
Having a minority of their race constantly on the scrounge for free money for no effort?

Someone did an execellent post the other week - JRandom, I think - the one with the youtube clip of the dumb shit with his 'maori' driving licence.

I think YOU have a very strange definition of racist if you think being fed up with the scrounging/racist claptrap that the likes of Pita Sharples and his ilk come out with isn't ten times worse than the (possibly) mild racism here.

[AD345]

...

I had a guts full of this 10 years ago and left NZ for good as I was sick of being treated as a second class citizen



How did it actually impact you as an individual?

[Indiana_Jones]

We have again taken the high moral ground by recognising and remedying historical injustices against Maori. Canada is doing the same for the Inuit.



So when does one draw the line?

Can I get some money from the Germans for bombing us or some money from Italy for invading us a few years back :blink:

-Indy

[Winston001]

So when does one draw the line?

Can I get some money from the Germans for bombing us or some money from Italy for invading us a few years back :blink:

-Indy

Indy the Greek?? :shit:


Draw the line? We can only do what we can. Recognising and righting historical injustices in our own country is easier than most because we are remote and have no land borders.

England still struggles today to heal events 400 years old in Ireland and Scotland.

Most of the world want China to give back Tibet - that's righting a wrong.

The Treaty settlements have had no negative impact on non-maori. What's the problem?

[Solly]

She's a hard road finding the perfect settlement bud.

[oldrider]

Indy the Greek?? :shit:


Draw the line? We can only do what we can. Recognising and righting historical injustices in our own country is easier than most because we are remote and have no land borders.

England still struggles today to heal events 400 years old in Ireland and Scotland.

Most of the world want China to give back Tibet - that's righting a wrong.

The Treaty settlements have had no negative impact on non-maori. What's the problem?

Don't think that's quite right Winston001 baby, "we" (as taxpayers of today) are paying for the sins of our (supposed) fathers! :sick:

Some one else did the crime and we do the time! (so to speak) :crybaby:

True or false?

[Indiana_Jones]

Don't think that's quite right Winston001 baby, "we" (as taxpayers of today) are paying for the sins of our (supposed) fathers! :sick:

Some one else did the crime and we do the time! (so to speak) :crybaby:

True or false?

Pretty much what oldrider said.

Just because I was born in a nation with a past of walking into nations defended by people armed to the teeth with sharp fruit means I have to pay for it with my money now?

-Indy

[popelli]

The Treaty settlements have had no negative impact on non-maori. What's the problem?

exactly where does all this money come from - out of thin air - no it comes from the taxpayer of which approximately 80 - 90 % of whom are non maori

[awayatc]

He who looks to much in rear mirror,
smases up the front......

[Quasievil]

Its not a big bag of money delivered to the tribe people, the amounts are mostly made up of land and assets and a small amount of cash, for example the tribe Im associated with has a reasonable asset base to enable them to offer the tribe some bennifits for example I am part owner of the Bulls Police station and a few other stupid little dwellings and some land with some trees on it, big frecking deal, but the tribe who owed it in the first place with its own legal borders has got something back.............it was basically stolen via mean nasty english tossers.
I dont really care about the issue, but I take pride that we as a country address them as opposed to forget them and hope they will go away which seems to be the standard around the globe.

besides why should the government own some the the assets in question, they basically fuck up everything they touch, land is better with the Maori in many respects.

[davebullet]

This document seems to sum things up pretty well (I'm assuming it still stands):
http://www.waitangi-tribunal.govt.nz/doclibrary/public/temanutukutuku/TPK/TPK.pdf

You have until 1/9/08 to submit your historical claim.
However, you can still amend your claim after submission - the above date is just the cutoff for new ones.
You can still submit new claims after 1/9/08 for grevances that occured after 1992. 1992 was set as the date where gov. changed its treaty handling process (I suppose a way of deliniating old from new ways of handling treaty issues).

So essentially, it doesn't really set a cut off date.

Of course any future government can overturn any legislation and the treat of waitangi tribunal carries on.

Here is where I would vote for the $9m on the smacking referrendum to be better spent on a treaty referrendum. (which I would make a binding one for the government - well at least the current one - lol).

[Usarka]

you will not gain true understanding of the situation here, all you will do is feed the inner racist. and it sickens me to see it happening.

it is easier to blame and degrade others than to look at ourselves.
hitler and the jews is a prime example, a more contemporary one is destiny church.

if any of you have an open mind and truly want to understand the situation it will take a lot of study to get your head around it. i suspect you would rather blame the natives and continue in your racist ways.

Instead of providing any answers or insights you say that "we" are all ignorant and racist and probably too stupid to understand it.

I call hypercrite.

[tri boy]

I am part owner of the Bulls Police station

Could you please evict that plonker of rozza that has no sence of humour, and is extremely quick on the ticket pencil.:stupid:

[firefighter]

Not meant to stir up a load of anti-anybody anything but just want to ask about the Maori land / financial settlements I see in the news from time to time. Particularly:

Is there an end in sight?
What happens to the money? Does it benefit or support Maori communities or individuals directly and in what way?
Where does the money come from? Surely one generation of Kiwis couldn't afford to settle long-standing, historic claims out of public money / their taxes?

easy.

It's the claim that never ends, 'cause it goes on and on my friends, some people, started claiming it, after finding out they had enough maori to euro blood, and they'll continue claiming forever just because.......it is the claim does'nt end.....:yawn:

[firefighter]

it was basically stolen via mean nasty english tossers.

I think they were very kind. They could have just killed and enslaved them all.....

You know there's some real irony in this, my blood mix is'nt quite of the right grade so i'm paying my taxes towards this, because some people with a slightly higher mix can get land etc. It's bullshit. I'm certainly not entitled to anything and I don't believe anyone else is.
How about the european mix of these claimers? Is it paying out too?lol

Really an endless argument, no full or even half bloods left, time to stop being entitled to anything surely.

The governments have been bending over backwards for decades on this issue now. It's been milked enough.

[hospitalfood]

Instead of providing any answers or insights you say that "we" are all ignorant and racist and probably too stupid to understand it.

I call hypercrite.

this is kiwibiker, not a fuckin university.
and i will not post pages about it because i cannot be bothered.

i will say IMO that this thread is racist and only makes things worse

[sidecar bob]

this is kiwibiker, not a fuckin university.
and i will not post pages about it because i cannot be bothered.

i will say IMO that this thread is racist and only makes things worse

No no no, special hand outs & treats to appease a minority that will essentially always be a failure because they expect a leg in everywhere is racist bro.

[Grahameeboy]

Its not a big bag of money delivered to the tribe people, the amounts are mostly made up of land and assets and a small amount of cash, for example the tribe Im associated with has a reasonable asset base to enable them to offer the tribe some bennifits for example I am part owner of the Bulls Police station and a few other stupid little dwellings and some land with some trees on it, big frecking deal, but the tribe who owed it in the first place with its own legal borders has got something back.............it was basically stolen via mean nasty english tossers.
I dont really care about the issue, but I take pride that we as a country address them as opposed to forget them and hope they will go away which seems to be the standard around the globe.

besides why should the government own some the the assets in question, they basically fuck up everything they touch, land is better with the Maori in many respects.

I agree to a point....but at the end of the day it is just material $ not cash...I just look through History and the Maori were not the only people to be invaded and re-invaded...the Maoria were the first here (?) that is all but at the end of the day the Maori have had a better deal than the American Native Indians, Abo's and to me it was greed and revenge that made some Maori take the guns for land (they had land to give away anyway) so it was not all one sided.

When does the point come when we are all considered NZers I wonder which is more important....I know if I was Maori I would get half the hassles I get with being Nats Father....

At some stage "let go" has to preside

[jrandom]

No no no, special hand outs & treats to appease a minority that will essentially always be a failure because they expect a leg in everywhere is racist bro.

In the nineteenth century, the Crown (basically) confiscated a bunch of land that was already legally owned by its Maori citizens.

(Let's leave the question of citizenship versus separate sovereignty and the issues with mistranslation of Treaty alone for now, and just take the conservative position that they were standard citizens in a British colony.)

Since 1985, the Crown has recognised that all that land, etc, was not purchased fairly at market value, and has been compensating the descendants of the people it confiscated it from.

(The original ToW Act in 1975 didn't empower the Tribunal to consider historical claims; it was a bit of a lame duck until the 1985 amendment.)

That's really all there is to it. And yes, there is a shitload of money involved, because a large portion of the country was shifted from private to Crown ownership in the nineteenth century without any proper consideration.

The fact that modern Maori are overrepresented in crime and unemployment statistics is a red herring. Bringing it up in discussion of Treaty settlements is a fallacious tactic, worthy of politicans, not sidecar racers.

:nono:

Regardless of the other ongoing social issues in NZ today, these Treaty settlements are an honest and well-founded attempt to address a grievous historical wrong.

[jrandom]

... it was greed and revenge that made some Maori take the guns for land (they had land to give away anyway) so it was not all one sided.

I suggest you read The Penguin History of New Zealand by Michael King.


When does the point come when we are all considered NZers...

We already are.

And those of us who had significant assets confiscated from our great-great-grandparents by the Crown are being paid compensation for that.

[Grahameeboy]

In the nineteenth century, the Crown (basically) confiscated a bunch of land that was already legally owned by its Maori citizens.

(Let's leave the question of citizenship versus separate sovereignty and the issues with mistranslation of Treaty alone for now, and just take the conservative position that they were standard citizens in a British colony.)

Since 1985, the Crown has recognised that all that land, etc, was not purchased fairly at market value, and has been compensating the descendants of the people it confiscated it from.

(The original ToW Act in 1975 didn't empower the Tribunal to consider historical claims; it was a bit of a lame duck until the 1985 amendment.)

That's really all there is to it. And yes, there is a shitload of money involved, because a large portion of the country was shifted from private to Crown ownership in the nineteenth century without any proper consideration.

The fact that modern Maori are overrepresented in crime and unemployment statistics is a red herring. Bringing it up in discussion of Treaty settlements is a fallacious tactic, worthy of politicans, not sidecar racers.

:nono:

Regardless of the other ongoing social issues in NZ today, these Treaty settlements are an honest and well-founded attempt to address a grievous historical wrong.

I agree but Maori are not the only ones ever wronged and if they did as some suggest take the land from others then this is an issue to....

Land is just that..land....we need oxygen to breath...

[Skyryder]

Short question with a long answer but I'll give a short one.


In breif the Treaty gave Maori protection under the Crown and it's laws.'

The Maori Wars gave the Crown an excuse where Treaty rights and the crowns obligation to the Treaty were broken.

The Seabed and Foreshore issue is another case entirely. Maori believe that they have ownership. Labour stopped the issue from going before the court where ownership could be tested.

Skyryder

[Grahameeboy]

I suggest you read The Penguin History of New Zealand by Michael King.



We already are.

And those of us who had significant assets confiscated from our great-great-grandparents by the Crown are being paid compensation for that.

No I wont cause I prefer to look forward....compensation....mmmm...I admit I may not know enough but I prefer to look at now....

We will all be NZers when we all have the same rights...

[jrandom]

I agree but Maori are not the only ones ever wronged and if they did as some suggest take the land from others...

Who else, in NZ's short history, has had billions of dollars worth of prime real estate confiscated by the Government?

And as for 'took it from others', read that history book, dude.

You haven't really moved past the 'got off the plane and got a job' step of immigration, have you?

[jrandom]

No I wont cause I prefer to look forward...

What an idiotic statement.

Sorry dude, it really is.

If you refuse to learn about the reasons for the current situation, then that's fine and dandy, but I'd suggest that you refrain from commenting on it.

[Indiana_Jones]

Maori believe that they have ownership.



They also seem to think they own the radio waves lol.

Cause you know, they were using those heaps before the white devil got here!

-Indy

[Grahameeboy]

Who else, in NZ's short history, has had billions of dollars worth of prime real estate confiscated by the Government?

And as for 'took it from others', read that history book, dude.

You haven't really moved past the 'got off the plane and got a job' step of immigration, have you?

It was not worth billions of $ then...who knows what would have happend if Europeans had not moved here??

I just see life different to you Dan...I think there are more important things to life...its short enough anyway...land is just land at the end of the day

[Grahameeboy]

What an idiotic statement.

Sorry dude, it really is.

If you refuse to learn about the reasons for the current situation, then that's fine and dandy, but I'd suggest that you refrain from commenting on it.

That's fine...and no I can still comment and happy to be knocked down....reading books etc is just fine but there are plenty of books and we were not there.

[oldrider]

Short question with a long answer but I'll give a short one.


In breif the Treaty gave Maori protection under the Crown and it's laws.'

The Maori Wars gave the Crown an excuse where Treaty rights and the crowns obligation to the Treaty were broken.

The Seabed and Foreshore issue is another case entirely. Maori believe that they have ownership. Labour stopped the issue from going before the court where ownership could be tested.

Skyryder

Personally I don't believe they should have done that! :nono:

It was just creating another festering sore!

A circus to rev up on demand to divert attention from selective serious issues, that's Labour's way! :yawn:

[jrandom]

It was not worth billions of $ then...

I was speaking in current dollars.

The considerations paid for the land confiscations were nonexistent or laughable. Adjusted for inflation, the confiscations were and are indeed worth billions.


I just see life different to you Dan...

O RLY? Well, that's all right, then. Your incisive arguments are, as always, compelling.

:laugh:

[Winston001]

...I just look through History and the Maori were not the only people to be invaded and re-invaded...the Maoria were the first here (?) that is all but at the end of the day the Maori have had a better deal than the American Native Indians, Abo's...


At some stage "let go" has to preside

Let go eh. Tell that to the Irish regarding Oliver Cromwell, the Scots regarding the Clearances, the people of the Balkans who variously still love/revile Vlad the Impaler from the 15th century! Grievances from Vlads day played out directly in the Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian war which took place in the 1990s. 500 years later. :crazy:

Go back even further to the Diaspora when the Romans expelled the Jews from Palestine in 300AD. That was finally dealt with in 1948.

Sometimes history and culture come together to heal wrongs. We can only try.

[jrandom]

That's fine...and no I can still comment and happy to be knocked down...

If you see your role in discussion as that of providing an uninformed foil to those who know what they're talking about, I shall happily let you continue your work.

[Grahameeboy]

I was speaking in current dollars.

The considerations paid for the land confiscations were nonexistent or laughable. Adjusted for inflation, the confiscations were and are indeed worth billions.



O RLY? Well, that's all right, then. Your incisive arguments are, as always, compelling.

:laugh:

Cool...............

[Grahameeboy]

If you see your role in discussion as that of providing an uninformed foil to those who know what they're talking about, I shall happily let you continue your work.

Informed is so overrated......

[Grahameeboy]

Let go eh. Tell that to the Irish regarding Oliver Cromwell, the Scots regarding the Clearances, the people of the Balkans who variously still love/revile Vlad the Impaler from the 15th century! Grievances from Vlads day played out directly in the Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian war which took place in the 1990s. 500 years later. :crazy:

Go back even further to the Diaspora when the Romans expelled the Jews from Palestine in 300AD. That was finally dealt with in 1948.

Sometimes history and culture come together to heal wrongs. We can only try.

I don't recall the Irish seek compensation...I just think we forget to be human sometimes.....so guess the Maori are lucky all things considered....many trips to Scotland and they seem to have moved on....

[Morcs]

The Treaty settlements have had no negative impact on non-maori. What's the problem?

Bullshit. WHat about poor farmers who have to give up their land, because some maori decided he was related to some chief 7 generations ago.

[oldrider]

..who knows what would have happend if Europeans had not moved here??

Think about it!

Most of the part blood "Maori", demanding we go away would not be here either!

They seem to think that they would be someone else of full Maori blood!

Conception is quite infinite, if all of the specific ingredients are not there at that instance in time it's curtains, it will never happen again.

The so called Maori part breeds complaining, would be nothing more than a wank, a wet dream or a menstrual flush, never to be seen again!

If "we" were not here, "they" would not be here, that is something quite incomprehensible to them, it seems. :doh:

[BMWST?]

seriuos injustices have been done.Its right that we attempt to put thing right.We signed a treaty to offer the protection of the crown,and the statistics quoted earlier surley prove there is something ammiss in our society.When the first english settlers arrived they relied on the Maori to survive.We could have killed and enslaved them all,as they could have of the first settlers.We agreed not to so now must try to put thing right.There is a process in place to end the claims.I am proud the we are pushing this process through.No other country can demonstrate a process to try to integrate two cultures.Its not perfect.....what is?

[jrandom]

Bullshit. WHat about poor farmers who have to give up their land...

Do you know any 'poor farmers who have had to give up their land'?

I bet you don't.

And that would be because the settlements have come from the Crown, which, if it didn't already own the land, had to purchase it at market rates.

Stop and think before posting, eh?

[bsasuper]

Sure give a bit of land back, the foreshore and seabed should not count here though as this is everybody's.Give some land back, but they must give back everything us whites introduced, eg, cars, money, mobile phones, playstations,social security,then leave them to it.OR they can live how they want now with all the toys, free education etc, and stop asking for more

[2_SL0]

The Treaty settlements have had no negative impact on non-maori. What's the problem?

You dont think they create a resentment towards Maori?
You dont feel that often the settlements benefit the few rather than the greater?

[Skyryder]

Personally I don't believe they should have done that! :nono:

It was just creating another festering sore!

A circus to rev up on demand to divert attention from selective serious issues, that's Labour's way! :yawn:

Labour was afraid that the Courts would rule in Maori favour. National have the same fear, that is why they are going for a negotiated settlement.

What both parties fail to see is that Maori would need to prove ownership for them to have any kind of claim. From what I understand this would be difficult to prove by any legal means

Labour removed the right for the court to adjucate on this issue.

National have opted to negotiate with Maori when no legal ownership has ever been established of ownership of foreshore and seabed

Key has effectivley placed millions of dollars of taxpayer money at risk by way of compensation to Maori when ownership has never been established

And some on here wonder why I am so hostile to this man.


Skyryder

[MSTRS]

... land is better with the Maori in many respects.

Maybe things have changed?
A bit before I had any interest in any of this process, but wasn't there a wonderful golf course at Raglan...

[Dave Lobster]

You dont think they create a resentment towards Maori?
You dont feel that often the settlements benefit the few rather than the greater?

Even if the claims were halted tomorrow, there'd be something else instead.

Some people in life (not necessarily maoris, but some of them are a good local example) love playing the 'victim'. Always after something for nothing. Be it cash, sympathy, whatever.. there's always something.

[Solly]

Think about it!

Most of the part blood "Maori", demanding we go away would not be here either!

They seem to think that they would be someone else of full Maori blood!

Conception is quite infinite, if all of the specific ingredients are not there at that instance in time it's curtains, it will never happen again.

The so called Maori part breads complaining, would be nothing more than a wank, a wet dream or a menstrual flush, never to be seen again!

If "we" were not here, "they" would not be here, that is something quite incomprehensible to them, it seems. :doh:

Hahahaha!!!

Have another read of what you have wrote............

You are saying that, had the European not arrived, there would be no "part breeds" to claim anything.
Soooooo.....what you are REALLY saying is that part maori are also part something else...European then??.....so we are all getting some benifet from any payouts....
...........seems to me It's a classic case of Dr Seuss's "Star Belly Sneeches" :rofl::rofl::bleh:

On another note.......Just to put you right Grahameeboy.....In one of your previous threads [correct me if I'm wrong]...I think you were referring to the Morioris (you spelt it differently) as being here before the Maori.......they were NOT....as simple as that.

[AD345]

You dont think they create a resentment towards Maori?
You dont feel that often the settlements benefit the few rather than the greater?

Resentment is created by those who resent - not those who are resented.

There are a myriad of taxpayer funded initiatives that benefit the few - breast cancer screening, sports funding, the entire mental health and disability sector....it would fill several pages to even begin to list them all.

[Katman]

....we need oxygen to breath...

Sshhhhh, don't go putting ideas in their heads.

[Dave Lobster]

Resentment is created by those who resent - not those who are resented.


Initially, maybe. But the resented don't help by fuelling it, do they?


There are a myriad of taxpayer funded initiatives that benefit the few - breast cancer screening, sports funding, the entire mental health and disability sector....it would fill several pages to even begin to list them all.

Name one that is based on race. As far as I'm aware, white people and brown are treated equally when it comes to breast cancer screening. Although, the adverts seem to be aimed more at one race than others..

[Jantar]

Do you know any 'poor farmers who have had to give up their land'?

I bet you don't.

And that would be because the settlements have come from the Crown, which, if it didn't already own the land, had to purchase it at market rates.

Stop and think before posting, eh?

My Grandfather was one. He lost his farm in Taranaki under the Public Works Act during WW2. When the crown decided they no longer need the land it was offered back to the original owners. That was the moari tribe who it was confiscated from in the first place. A legal confiscation, because they broke the treaty!

[Katman]

Do you know any 'poor farmers who have had to give up their land'?



Not on exactly the same topic and possibly not even in the same context but, the McLennan family were paid a pittance for their farmland when it was 'seized' under some National Emergency Act before WWII to allow Papakura military camp to be built.

If the family want the land back now they are expected to pay a not-so-small fortune for it.

Doesn't seem quite the same way that Maori Land claims are settled.

[scumdog]

Let go eh. Tell that to the Irish regarding Oliver Cromwell, the Scots regarding the Clearances, the people of the Balkans who variously still love/revile Vlad the Impaler from the 15th century! Grievances from Vlads day played out directly in the Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian war which took place in the 1990s. 500 years later. :crazy:

Go back even further to the Diaspora when the Romans expelled the Jews from Palestine in 300AD. That was finally dealt with in 1948.

Sometimes history and culture come together to heal wrongs. We can only try.

Right!
That does it!
I'm orf back to Scotland and put in whopping claim against the Poms for rooting Scottish cattle and stealing Scots women all those years ago.

And my ancestors never got a single blanket or musket in compensation neither...:angry:

[Mr Merde]

Do you know any 'poor farmers who have had to give up their land'?

I bet you don't.

And that would be because the settlements have come from the Crown, which, if it didn't already own the land, had to purchase it at market rates.

Stop and think before posting, eh?
http://www.treatyofwaitangi.net.nz/AllanandSusanvsTheWaitangiTribunal1.html

How about the Alan and Susan Titford case.

[AD345]

Initially, maybe. But the resented don't help by fuelling it, do they?



Name one that is based on race. As far as I'm aware, white people and brown are treated equally when it comes to breast cancer screening. Although, the adverts seem to be aimed more at one race than others..

Not interested - this is not the forum for it and you are not interested in leaning anything. You just want to prove your point.

We don't agree

We are not ever going to agree

and that's the end of that.

[bsasuper]

I really loved it when they came up with the idea of putting in a claim to NASA for using the space over NZ:doh:

[McJim]

New Zealand once had a reputation for being at the forefront of new ideas. We were the first nation to introduce the old age pension and the womans vote.

We have again taken the high moral ground by recognising and remedying historical injustices against Maori. Canada is doing the same for the Inuit.

The Waitangi Tribunal was established in 1975, so this process has been going on for 34 years. It isn't new.

Settlements come from Crown land, lump sums, and assets purchased by the Crown for that purpose. The burden of settlement is not imposed on a single generation, at 34 years we are already into our second generation. Also Crown land holdings date back to the 1840s.
Correct me if I'm wrong - isn't treating a group of people differently based on their ethnicity institutional racism?

The people that were wronged are long since dead - the people that committed the wrongs are long since dead. Why is it still going on?

My clan were all but annihilated by the Montgomeries in the 17th century - it's not like we're gonna get any reparation.

[middleaged2wheeler]

A cynic and perhaps future historians would say David Lange and the Labour Party set the modern Treaty Settlements rolling to buy off the Maori vote through a veil of political respectibility and at no Labour Party direct costs.--A political vote winner in other words--sure worked for a while way bac then.

[middleaged2wheeler]

Notice that no other political party BEFORE then had opened that can of worms. Even the 1935 Labour Reform govt didn,t touch that issue.
Served Labour well , 2 series of 3 political terms in Govt.Those who study history view things differently, especially when politics involved. Look for political gain for motives in their decisions as that is how they survive.

[Genestho]

JRAN! O Jraaaaaaaan...

Can you please explain the statistical red herrings as you understand it, and if anyone else has info, that disputes the "stats" could they please share?

The reason I ask this, is because I'm interested in stats and the data, and am privy to quite alot of stats, that reflect right throughout our society.

The stats show what they show.
Also my concern is if they what they show, then where is all this treaty money going, is it going to correct the issues?

Is it filtering down, or are there Fat Cats, with cigars, and cheshire grins, supping at the cream.

You may ask, what business is it of mine, I'm interested as my life was invaded, and my family became part of these stats across a threshold of areas.

And also the book you mention, is that the Micheal King book that is heavily disputed even amongst Maori, I've heard, and no I don't know details regarding facts disputed! Although keen to know!

Or is the disputed Micheal King book under another title? He has a couple eh?
And for goodness sake I am NOT being racist! I am actually concerned!

[Usarka]

Stop it, it's racist to disagree with or debate against any treaty compensation or maori land ownership issues.

[Pussy]

Or is the disputed Micheal King book under another title? He has a couple eh?

Was it a Michael (I LOVE pork!!) King book? :)

[Genestho]

Stop it, it's racist to disagree with or debate against any treaty compensation or maori land ownership issues.

Nothing like debating a dispute, disbuting a debate?:wacko: PMSL

Funny you say that....I recall seeing a lady on Maori TV when asked about her opinion on the stats, and the answer?

"why don't they go take their stats somewhere else." Brilliant.

I think that's the frustration, that perhaps fact is misconstrued as racisim, which is a pity!

[Genestho]

Was it a Michael (I LOVE pork!!) King book? :)
The penguin book of NZ by Micheal King? But I think there is two, could be wrong, known to be before! LOL (cheeky :bleh:)

[Genestho]

Waiting for Winston :blip: shhh I know he's got something good on the boil...teeeheee!

[Winston001]

I don't recall the Irish seek compensation...

Really? Ask Sein Fein. Ask the IRA. Ask many Irish. They want Ulster back in Eire. One nation, not artificially divided by the British.


Even if the claims were halted tomorrow, there'd be something else instead.


Agreed and this is one of the issues which concerns anyone opposed to the Treaty settlements. It is a fair point.


Right!
That does it!
I'm orf back to Scotland and put in whopping claim against the Poms for rooting Scottish cattle and stealing Scots women all those years ago.

And my ancestors never got a single blanket or musket in compensation neither...:angry:




My clan were all but annihilated by the Montgomeries in the 17th century - it's not like we're gonna get any reparation.

Well you'll have noticed that Scotland got its own Parliament back recently, has its own laws, and the Stone of Scotland has been returned. Thats all for the purpose of righting historical wrongs and recognising Scottish culture.


Correct me if I'm wrong - isn't treating a group of people differently based on their ethnicity institutional racism?

Not when its on a cultural basis and for the purpose of helping those people. Racism is a completely negative concept - its meaning includes demeaning a group of people on the grounds of their race alone.


They also seem to think they own the radio waves lol.

Cause you know, they were using those heaps before the white devil got here!



Yeah and the white devils were using those same radio waves...??:eek5: The Treaty guarantees protection to Maori and the right to their resources. The radio waves belonged to them just as much as the white devils who later learned to use them.

[Winston001]

Ok. I used to be anti-treaty. Bunch of wasters.

However over 24 years I've come around to the view that its the right thing to do. Ngai Tahu for example make many caucasian businessmen look very ordinary. They are smart operators.

I actually agree with Indy about the radio waves being a reach too far but can't get worked up about it. Nothing is lost.

Ultimately those who oppose the Treaty settlement process can relax. Non-maori hold the vast majority of economic and political power in NZ. If Maori push too far, the shutters will go up.

The foreshore and seabed issue is a strong example. I don't think NZers will accept being excluded from "our" beaches - that's going too far.


And finally - the ultimate protection - each and every one of us can "identify" as Maori. We can go on the Maori roll. Claim Maori scholarships etc. "Grandma has a naughty with a handsome young maori shearer once.....and here I am!!"

[Dave Lobster]

Not interested - this is not the forum for it .

Yet here are, still posting in it.


you are not interested in leaning anything.


We have chairs in our house. No need to lean.


You just want to prove your point.


The one you are ignoring?


We don't agree

We are not ever going to agree

and that's the end of that.

What an excellent counter argument. You've dismissed all my points in a constructive way. I doff my cap in your general direction.

[Dave Lobster]

Well you'll have noticed that Scotland got its own Parliament back recently, has its own laws, and the Stone of Scotland has been returned. Thats all for the purpose of righting historical wrongs and recognising Scottish culture.


I think you'll find it's more to do with vote grubbing for the labour party. They've always had a stronghold in Scotland. And opening the Scottish parliament has got them more of their mates on the gravy train.
If Scotland had true independence (and their parliament would have any real power) there wouldn't be Scottish MPs sitting in the parliament in London.



The radio waves belonged to them just as much as the white devils who later learned to use them.

Are you implying the maoris haven't learned? :) :) :)



Not when its on a cultural basis and for the purpose of helping those people. Racism is a completely negative concept - its meaning includes demeaning a group of people on the grounds of their race alone.


I believe these claims ARE demeaning to maori. All the maoris I know (including the lady I work for) have got where they are today by hard work and bothering their ass to get on in life. None have needed a hand out, or anything 'free' because one of their ancestors was wronged.

How embarassed would you be if the only way you could (possibly) get on in life was to take other people's handouts, rather than off your own back?

[short-circuit]

All the maoris I know....

It's Maori (plural). There is no 's' in the Maori language

[Solly]

It's Maori (plural). There is no 's' in the Maori language

"Sweet cuz"

[Quasievil]

Bullshit. WHat about poor farmers who have to give up their land, because some maori decided he was related to some chief 7 generations ago.


Do you have that example as fact or are you mouthing ?

[Argyle]

Have a friend, he is a Farrier and like's to go out hunt sometimes. But he can't take Hi's own 5year old son for a hunt because there are Maoris hunting the hunters in "Maori" Forrest for their weapons. And when you tell the police the don't dare to do anything because they don't want to interfere with the Maori. They might be called racists then. Fucking hell, if a Maori had came to take my weapon i had shot the bastard.

No me and my fiance we are moving to Australia in two months!

[kiwifruit]

No me and my fiance we are moving to Australia, this is the most fuckd up country in the world!

Happy trails :wavey:

[2_SL0]

Resentment is created by those who resent - not those who are resented.

There are a myriad of taxpayer funded initiatives that benefit the few - breast cancer screening, sports funding, the entire mental health and disability sector....it would fill several pages to even begin to list them all.

I find resentment on this topic is created by an occurance, an event, a statement, a decision?
I am not saying settlement is not an option, I am saying that it can create resentment, that is a fact.

I see little comparison between screening for breast cancer and a treaty settlement. I fail to see your comparison on any of those points to be honest.

Over the years I have seen settlements that have not helped anyone except the very few within the immediate relationship to the settlement, you cannot say that is not true. Where as all of the comparisons you made are available to everyone of the wider community.

[slowpoke]

No me and my fiance we are moving to Australia, this is the most fuckd up country in the world!

Haha, you're in for a shock pal........

[Argyle]

Haha, you're in for a shock pal........

Hehe, with 80 000 aus dollars in annually pay and 6500dollars in relocation package it cant be worse =)

[oldrider]

Ngai Tahu for example make many caucasian businessmen look very ordinary. They are smart operators.


Maybe that's because basically they "are" Caucasian!

How does one define modern "Maori"? :confused:

[scumdog]

When oh when are the never-ending payouts going to end???:crazy:

[Solly]

When oh when are the never-ending payouts going to end???:crazy:

When we've ALL got bikes bro;)

[slowpoke]

Hehe, with 80 000 aus dollars in annually pay and 6500dollars in relocation package it cant be worse =)

Yep, you'll earn more dosh but you're just changing one set of headaches for another. Each country has it's own problems and injustices. Been there, done that for 17years.

On the settlement issue, it seems to me that a contract was made.....and broken. If this was a dispute between companies it would be no excuse that the board members or shareholders had changed, the offending company would still be liable for the intial damages.

[Drew]

There was talk at one point, of setting a date for all claims to be in. I thought the idea was good, didn't lesson who could claim, just that they get off their fuckin arse and start the prosess.

I know several people, who's tribe, iwi, whanau, whatever, have recieved a claim settlement, which pays for education and healthcare for members.

And then, there are people literally trying to sell the land, who have no claim to it at all. In the case I know anything about, a chap from outside the tribe, married an elder. She died, and he began negotiations with a Japanese crowd, to sell it.

The system is fucked, set a date, settle legitimate ones after it, and be done with the shit.

[Argyle]

On the settlement issue, it seems to me that a contract was made.....and broken. If this was a dispute between companies it would be no excuse that the board members or shareholders had changed, the offending company would still be liable for the intial damages.

Yes but most of the country's in the world are colonized by foreign people. This is just the way it goes, you can't take people tax money that is needed for a greater cause like health care and so on to a couple of Iwis who will just put them in their "mattress".

Look at Waikato Hospital, the hospital is in need of equipment for millions dollars becuase it is so unmodern and is way years after other country's. With new equipment and being able to offer to competitive wages the hospital would save much more lives. But no the treaty waitangi have to come first.

Kiwis have a common problem, no front thinking. Very impulsive and this attitude "i don't care" is like a pest goint through the people.

If the government in Sweden had given away millions of dollars to a race group of people and there were serious issues with poverty or bad health care, roads needs to be fixed, shortage of police, high criminality. The people had gone berserk! You just don't do anything like that, that is so hard to understand for me.

[firefighter]

The fact that modern Maori are overrepresented in crime and unemployment statistics is a red herring.

Now your taking the piss! (hang out around ANY court room or police station and take a look. The proof is in the pudding.


Even if the claims were halted tomorrow, there'd be something else instead.

Some people in life (not necessarily maoris, but some of them are a good local example) love playing the 'victim'. Always after something for nothing. Be it cash, sympathy, whatever.. there's always something.

Totally agree


i will say IMO that this thread is racist and only makes things worse

Oh, so your a troll?

Nothing racist here monkey boy, your just a little precious. People are entitled to discuss whatever they please, it does'nt make it racist

wikipedia- "racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race."

"[1] In the case of institutional racism, certain racial groups may be denied rights or benefits, or get preferential treatment"

(sounds like the super-council hikoi bullshit huh? racist protesters i'd say.....according to the dictionary anyway)

this thread does'nt favour any race, merely discussing a subject. I do'nt see in this thread anywhere anyone saying whites, yellows, blacks, browns or pinks are superior to any other.

[Bonez]

The system is fucked, set a date, settle legitimate ones after it, and be done with the shit.September 2008 was the cut-off date.

http://www.hrc.co.nz/hrc_new/hrc/cms/files/documents/04-Feb-2009_13-25-15_Race_Relations_Report_2008_-_Treaty_Summary.html

[duckonin]

Its not a big bag of money delivered to the tribe people, the amounts are mostly made up of land and assets and a small amount of cash, for example the tribe Im associated with has a reasonable asset base to enable them to offer the tribe some bennifits for example I am part owner of the Bulls Police station and a few other stupid little dwellings and some land with some trees on it, big frecking deal, but the tribe who owed it in the first place with its own legal borders has got something back.............it was basically stolen via mean nasty english tossers.
I dont really care about the issue, but I take pride that we as a country address them as opposed to forget them and hope they will go away which seems to be the standard around the globe.

besides why should the government own some the the assets in question, they basically fuck up everything they touch, land is better with the Maori in many respects.
Best of both worlds Quasievil the small white Maori part of you wants the lot, but the white part of you gets a bit..FFS get it right the Maori stole the land off others in the first place, let them now heal the riff with "those decendents"...Land better with the Maori yeah right it would all be back in gorse in a few short years...:Oops:

[Grahameeboy]

If you see your role in discussion as that of providing an uninformed foil to those who know what they're talking about, I shall happily let you continue your work.

I don't see that as my role....??

[Solly]

.............the Maori stole the land off others in the first place, let them now heal the riff with "those decendents"...

So who would would that be?

[jrandom]

There was talk at one point, of setting a date for all claims to be in.

That's been done. The deadline for submitting historical claims is sometime next year, I think. Or 2012-ish? Not too far away anyhow.

[jrandom]

Now your taking the piss! (hang out around ANY court room or police station and take a look. The proof is in the pudding.

Whoooosh.

(That was the sound of the point I made passing far above your head.)

Nobody's arguing that Maori aren't over-represented in NZ's crime statistics.

My point is that that fact is completely irrelevant to the legitimacy of claims for compensation for Treaty breaches.

[Quasievil]

I think (FRANKLY) that many of you hear the word Maori and irrespective of the subject matter feel compelled by your deep felt dislike for your fellow New Zealander to "drum beat" negative crapola.

If YOUR court says that Maori have a legitimate right to bring a case against the crown then perhaps accept it eh?

I mean for example, if the same court says you have a right to bring a case against the Crown relating to your issues then Im guessing thats okay, but just not if youre brown??

And again if the same Court sends a Maori to jail then its all good .........right?

some of you are bloody pathetic:yes:

[Bonez]

That's been done. The deadline for submitting historical claims is sometime next year, I think. Or 2012-ish? Not too far away anyhow.Sepember 2008 was the dead line and hopefully all claims settled within the next 6 or so years.

As Winston said if it drags on too long the shatters will go up. There's been plenty of time for iwi to make there greivences known. Lets just hope good folk like the Titfords don't get the carpet dragged from under their feet in the process.

[slowpoke]

Yes but most of the country's in the world are colonized by foreign people. This is just the way it goes, you can't take people tax money that is needed for a greater cause like health care and so on to a couple of Iwis who will just put them in their "mattress".

Look at Waikato Hospital, the hospital is in need of equipment for millions dollars becuase it is so unmodern and is way years after other country's. With new equipment and being able to offer to competitive wages the hospital would save much more lives. But no the treaty waitangi have to come first.

Kiwis have a common problem, no front thinking. Very impulsive and this attitude "i don't care" is like a pest goint through the people.

If the government in Sweden had given away millions of dollars to a race group of people and there were serious issues with poverty or bad health care, roads needs to be fixed, shortage of police, high criminality. The people had gone berserk! You just don't do anything like that, that is so hard to understand for me.

Yep, I can understand your confusion but it boils down to a war which was never won. Instead a treaty/bargain was made and basically the governing colonials have not kept up their end of the bargain. This has resulted in a division between NZ'ers over whether the wrong should be righted or ignored.

[Genestho]

Nobody's arguing that Maori aren't over-represented in NZ's crime statistics.

My point is that that fact is completely irrelevant to the legitimacy of claims for compensation for Treaty breaches.

You're right there, but it is relevant to the questions OP asked....

"What happens to the money? Does it benefit or support Maori communities or individuals directly and in what way?"

I want to be assured that this treaty money gets where it should and to deal with the issues that cause them to be over-represented in NZ crime, etc stats.

[Quasievil]

You're right there, but it is relevant to the questions OP asked....

"What happens to the money? Does it benefit or support Maori communities or individuals directly and in what way?"

I want to be assured that this treaty money gets where it should and to deal with the issues that cause them to be over-represented in NZ crime, etc stats.

Is there a relationship to Maori settlements and Maori over representation in NZ crime stats?

Or is there a more arguable relationship between Maori underclassing and institutionalised racism for the last 200 odd years and Maori over representation in the crime stats?

Can you clear that one up for me ?

[Solly]

:yawn::yawn::yawn::zzzz::zzzz::zzzz::yawn::yawn::z zzz::zzzz:

[Bonez]

Is there a relationship to Maori settlements and Maori over representation in NZ crime stats?

Or is there a more arguable relationship between Maori underclassing and institutionalised racism for the last 200 odd years and Maori over representation in the crime stats?

Can you clear that one up for me ?Quasi Maori have more advantages over the general NZ population than the they care to admit. Have so for decades. And thats a general observation of family members.

[The Stranger]

Or is there a more arguable relationship between Maori underclassing and institutionalised racism for the last 200 odd years and Maori over representation in the crime stats?

Can you clear that one up for me ?

Please help an ignorant honky cause it's hard for us who live a life of privilege to understand how this happens.
Have you yourself (given you previously claim to have Maori affiliations) been on the receiving end of Maori underclassing and institutionalised racism? In what way?

[Quasievil]

Quasi Maori have more advantages over the general NZ population than the they care to admit. Have so for decades. And thats a general observation of family members.

Really ? okay I guess its all just their own fault then eh :crazy:

[Genestho]

Is there a relationship to Maori settlements and Maori over representation in NZ crime stats?

Or is there a more arguable relationship between Maori underclassing and institutionalised racism for the last 200 odd years and Maori over representation in the crime stats?

Can you clear that one up for me ?

From what I can understand, there is no relationship between Maori settlements and over representation in the stat's. Of course not.

I havent looked into the last 200 years, so I don't know about that...

Is there is a direct link between what is happening right now, in this culture, reflective of the past?

I spent a few years growing up in Murapara, my Dad was a logger, I've lived that life mate, I saw it.

I was the whitey girl.
I saw poverty, I saw lack of education, I saw lack of healthcare, and I saw a lack of respect for society - more often than not. I saw alcoholism and abuse.

Has that changed at all? And that is my point, treaty claims need to get down into the community, and make sure it deals with communities that are still like this out there today. Fact.

It's a sad day when fact is misconstrued as racism, versus listening, and dealing with fact.

[Bonez]

Really ? okay I guess its all just their own fault then eh :crazy:It's commonly called free will Quasi.

[Quasievil]

Please help an ignorant honky cause it's hard for us who live a life of privilege to understand how this happens.
Have you yourself (given you previously claim to have Maori affiliations) been on the receiving end of Maori underclassing and institutionalised racism? In what way?

Hi Dude

No in a word, But I have studied the situation a fair bit, I dont mind admitting that Im a member of the Ngati Apa Tribe, my Grandfather was the paramount chief of the Tribe and I can trace my tree about 4 generations prior to him.
Im proud of my heritage and I certainly dont encourage division in NZ in any way at all, I am interested in a one NZ one unified country and the sooner all this shit is dealt with the sooner we can move on.
But as I said if our court says they have a right to claim, then they have a right to claim, so lets hear it sought it and get over it and move on!!

Demonstration of underclassing and Racism, personally no (Im a whitey) however my Fore Fathers yes without question, example I discovered that my Grandfather (remember a paramount chief) he was a signatory to the treaty and was highly regarded by many died and was buried just outside bulls on top of a small hill, this prime spot was later regarded by an army big wig as an ideal spot to bury his war hero Horse, grandads grave was bowled over and replaced with a monument to a fucking horse, Thats a demonstration of the relevance the government had for Maori, do you think they cared about their land or anything else for that matter ??
Nope!

anyway Im all for it to all go away, But Im proud that as a New Zealander we can address this shit and move on as opposed to hoping it will all go away like most other countries.............thats kudos for us isnt it?

[Winston001]

No me and my fiance we are moving to Australia in two months!

Enjoy. And google Mabo so you learn that the Aussies are on the same track with the Aboriginals.

And check out this Australian government website http://www.dfat.gov.au/facts/indigenous_land_rights.html Despite being about 30 years behind NZ, they have been trying. Buying land for settlements since the 1970s.

You won't escape native title claims by going to OZ. ;)




What happens to the money? Does it benefit or support Maori communities or individuals directly and in what way?


Depends on the tribe and the type of settlement. The essential answer is YES.

What some tribes have done is set up training schemes and create jobs for their members. Scholarships for the children. They don't pay much out in lump sums because that's a short-term benefit and will disappear. Plus spread over thousands of people each year it doesn't add up to much.

This all goes on quietly and not in the public eye. It doesn't need to be. Besides success is boring news.

But - but, there have been appalling decisions also by tribes. Tainui (I think?) invested $millions in the Warriors and it went down the toilet. Thats the sort of thing which gets the headlines - as it should.

However think of all the tens of thousands of Kiwis who invested in finance companies. Good white folk many of them. Or in Feltex. All gone. Non-maori decisions aren't very clever sometimes either. :gob:

[Quasievil]

Is there is a direct link between what is happening right now, in this culture, reflective of the past?


Like getting beaten for speaking their only known language at school?, this happened right up to the 60's yes this reflects the culture of today as our modern PC world spends millions to promote the Maori language......good one ignorant Europeans!!

Anyone that thinks Maori where and are treated the same as a European needs their heads read, this thread reinforces the attitudes in this regard.

the Maori as a race has freckin countless issues so many it would be to time consuming to list them all we all know this, are you saying then it has nothing to do with European influences over the last 200 years, is it all their own lifestyle choices that led then to this mess, no its not, but yes they are responsible in part of course no question. But the point is where do we stand as a country to sought them, do we play the traditional kiwi blame game and hope it goes away????...................no we promote positive attitudes and we promote anything that addresses issues to go away............the court says they have a right to have the claim for the foreshore and seabed issues to be heard.................so they do.................lets hear it and lets sought it and lets move on .........end of story

[Winston001]

For the sake of balance I'm going to say there are extreme non-maori liberals consumed with white guilt. In their eyes everything Maori is good, pakeha bad. Nonsense.

Maori are paternalistic and nepotistic giving jobs and favours to family and friends first. That's no help to our perceptions. It looks like corruption.

The much vaunted "whanau" concept where the wider family care for each other has been shown to be hollow so many times. Witness the people around the Kahui twins who knew something was wrong in that household but did nothing.

Some of the Maori corporations spend up large on their top people. Beautiful offices, generous salaries, plenty of cars. Just like Contact Energy etc. I think its wrong and plenty of Maori are angry about it too. The new generation of educated Maori aren't going to accept that. Things are changing, it just takes time.

[Deano]

Ca sera cera........we all have our crosses to bear, and who the f asked for any of it really.

Sort it out and move on, but draw the line.......and move on as one people, forget about the bullshit.

Yeah right.

[Winston001]

Like getting beaten for speaking their only known language at school?, this happened right up to the 60's.......

Anyone that thinks Maori were and are treated the same as a European needs their heads read, this thread reinforces the attitudes in this regard.


Its true maori children were given the strap in primary schools in the 1960s for speaking maori. Seems hard to believe today.

To be fair, times were different. Up to the 60s educationalists and maori parents believed the best way forward was for all maori to become fluent in English. This was a time (after WWII) when many maori moved from the countryside to the cities.

[The Stranger]

Hi Dude

No in a word, But I have studied the situation a fair bit, I dont mind admitting that Im a member of the Ngati Apa Tribe, my Grandfather was the paramount chief of the Tribe and I can trace my tree about 4 generations prior to him.
Im proud of my heritage and I certainly dont encourage division in NZ in any way at all, I am interested in a one NZ one unified country and the sooner all this shit is dealt with the sooner we can move on.
But as I said if our court says they have a right to claim, then they have a right to claim, so lets hear it sought it and get over it and move on!!

Demonstration of underclassing and Racism, personally no (Im a whitey) however my Fore Fathers yes without question, example I discovered that my Grandfather (remember a paramount chief) he was a signatory to the treaty and was highly regarded by many died and was buried just outside bulls on top of a small hill, this prime spot was later regarded by an army big wig as an ideal spot to bury his war hero Horse, grandads grave was bowled over and replaced with a monument to a fucking horse, Thats a demonstration of the relevance the government had for Maori, do you think they cared about their land or anything else for that matter ??
Nope!

anyway Im all for it to all go away, But Im proud that as a New Zealander we can address this shit and move on as opposed to hoping it will all go away like most other countries.............thats kudos for us isnt it?

Well, I must say, despite Hospital Food's assertion that this stuff can't really be debated on KB, I must say jrandom managed on a few sentences to make a shit load of sense of it.

With all due respect (which obviously wasn't shown you grandfather) you can't really use that as an example of 200yrs of racism or underclassing.
It's a c*&t of a thing to do by anyone to anyone for sure and highly disrespectful. Would it have been any different had a European been buried there? We'll never know. Also things are often done for provocation during war time in that regard it may well have been act of war more than of racism.

You see. When you say institutional racism and underclassing, I am one of those that have perpetrated this crime, either by my actions or my inactions.
In all sincerity, I genuinely don't know how I did this. I know I didn't mean to, so it is important to me to understand how it happened.

[scumdog]

Its true maori children were given the strap in primary schools in the 1960s for speaking maori. Seems hard to believe today.

Just like children were beaten for being left-handed.:yes:

[Deano]

Like getting beaten for speaking their only known language at school?, this happened right up to the 60's yes this reflects the culture of today as our modern PC world spends millions to promote the Maori language......good one ignorant Europeans!!



Things have changed a fair bit since then Brett, like getting spat on at the local Taita Dairy by some Maori kids....

I got beaten up for siding with the Maori kids at primary school, my kids are part Maori but for FS, don't tell me things are so one sided these days....

[doc]

...........the court says they have a right to have the claim

Thats the problem. No one seems to have any faith in the decisions of the courts anymore. Just ask a policeman....or a victim.

:crazy:

[Genestho]

For the sake of balance I'm going to say there are extreme non-maori liberals consumed with white guilt. In their eyes everything Maori is good, pakeha bad. Nonsense.

Maori are paternalistic and nepotistic giving jobs and favours to family and friends first. That's no help to our perceptions. It looks like corruption.

The much vaunted "whanau" concept where the wider family care for each other has been shown to be hollow so many times. Witness the people around the Kahui twins who knew something was wrong in that household but did nothing.

As is too often the case, I'm glad you put those two sentences together! And how many more cases are like this?
The list goes on, and on, and on.
I'd like to think there is opportunity to turn these situations and stats around with the Maori Party, for the sake of the culture and kiwi's in general, they need to step up. The whanau concept needs to embraced from the top down, let's start taking care of the stuff impacting on the community as a whole.

[Genestho]

Just like children were beaten for being left-handed.:yes:
That's right!

[Quasievil]

You see. When you say institutional racism and underclassing, I am one of those that have perpetrated this crime, either by my actions or my inactions.
In all sincerity, I genuinely don't know how I did this. I know I didn't mean to, so it is important to me to understand how it happened.

I dunno old fella you tell me but you are a NZr so you can go two ways 1/ fuck the Maori.........or 2/ let get on with it and move on as fast as we bloody can

Im in group two.

[Quasievil]

Things have changed a fair bit since then Brett, like getting spat on at the local Taita Dairy by some Maori kids....

I got beaten up for siding with the Maori kids at primary school, my kids are part Maori but for FS, don't tell me things are so one sided these days....

So Deano me ole china, tell us how you can satisfy the situation to an agreeable conclusion to both parties, the process as it is seems to be one option whats another ?

[short-circuit]

I dunno old fella you tell me but you are a NZr so you can go two ways 1/ fuck the Maori.........or 2/ let get on with it and move on as fast as we bloody can

Im in group two.

How come the Act voter is talking like he's got a social conscience?

[Elysium]

Is there a relationship to Maori settlements and Maori over representation in NZ crime stats?



Blame the "maori warrior gene" ?

Anyhow my $2.50 worth. I think all claims should be settled once in for all, sign another treaty saying yes all is good and "are we all happy now?" and finaly put an end to all this "gimme money I'm maori!" crap. If the chinese migrants can look after themselves to this day without handouts, I'm sure maoris can too. They just need to change their behavour and make it on their own.

Though I still think the Maori party should be made illegal as I can't understand the need for racialy based parties and they seem to have too many extremists and idiots like the Green party.

[scumdog]

That's right!

No. left!

Dummy

[Deano]

How hard is it, to settle the current disputes and move on once and for all. Why should'nt there be an expectation to resolve things finally, once and for all. Are we too stupid to be abe to do this, or too many private agendas at stake ?

No more arguments, all previous grievances sorted out once and for all, then, lets work as one people for the better good of the country.

Yeah Right.......

[Genestho]

Though I still think the Maori party should be made illegal as I can't understand the need for racialy based parties and they seem to have too many extremists and idiots like the Green party.

I might've agreed with that a few years ago, but the culture needs representing, and whoever has chosen to represent the culture needs to be accountable, and activate positive change.

[scumdog]

How hard is it, to settle the current disputes and move on once and for all. Why should'nt there be an expectation to resolve things finally, once and for all. Are we too stupid to be abe to do this, or too many private agendas at stake ?

No more arguments, all previous grievances sorted out once and for all, then, lets work as one people for the better good of the country.

Yeah Right.......

Wot 'e sed.

Only "yeah right" sounds about right..

[Genestho]

No. left!

Dummy
:bleh: oh right!

[Deano]

So Deano me ole china, tell us how you can satisfy the situation to an agreeable conclusion to both parties, the process as it is seems to be one option whats another ?

Some sort of compromise, but it seems to be too much of a tug of war either way to meet in the middle.

The 'stats' are changing, for the good of Maori - that has to be an indication that current policies are working to some degree ?

[scracha]

Who else, in NZ's short history, has had billions of dollars worth of prime real estate confiscated by the Government?

Why limit your argument to New Zealand?

Heard of the Highland Clearances? a.k.a. ethnic cleansing. How far back should compensation go as this happened in the late 19th century?

[The Stranger]

I dunno old fella you tell me but you are a NZr so you can go two ways 1/ fuck the Maori.........or 2/ let get on with it and move on as fast as we bloody can

Im in group two.

Hey, I'm with group 2 also, no problem.

I can dig that land has been confiscated and those from whom it was want it back, shit if mine was, I'd want it back too, no argument.
Actually I am not arguing with you at all.

Just trying to understand your comments re crime and prison stats etc is all.

[98tls]

:wacko:Was all ready for a rant (again) but Quasis taken the wind outta my sails to be honest,whilst i think those that make many of the decisions re this subject get it wrong fact is the decisions been made and not likely to change so lets get it all over as soon as possible and move on.Just hope that when its done and dusted its made clear thats it,the wells empty.

[Skyryder]

Maybe that's because basically they "are" Caucasian!

How does one define modern "Maori"? :confused:


Maori are defined by their whakapapa. This is no different today as of yesterday and is defined by their canoe, tribe, river, and mountain.

As to how much blood be it Caucasian or another racial type, this makes no difference.

There have been cases where Europeans (sealers/whalers etc) have been adopted for want of a better word by the Iwi and as such have the same rights as those that have been born into the Iwi.

Skyryder

[reofix]

take a read through these posts and then ask yourself.... Do the maori have a valid point or what ... its not about individual vs individual its about state rascism and theft ... buy a history book and read all about it !

[Solly]

Just like children were beaten for being left-handed.:yes:

Bugger being a left handed maori then :crazy:.......right Scummy????

[DMNTD]

... buy a history book and read all about it!

Easier to just claim one surely

[98tls]

Bugger being a left handed maori then :crazy:.......right Scummy???? Im left handed and considering court action against the faceless motorcycle manufacturers that continue to offer no option of a left hand throttle.......maddening:angry:surely a form of discrimination.:sweatdrop

[Genestho]

Im left handed and considering court action against the faceless motorcycle manufacturers that continue to offer no option of a left hand throttle.......maddening:angry:surely a form of discrimination.:sweatdrop

have you heard of the website, erm, I think it's lefthanded.com? (sorry if I put you crook!) something like that anyway, great for left handed scissors (and shtuff)

[Elysium]

Im left handed and considering court action against the faceless motorcycle manufacturers that continue to offer no option of a left hand throttle.......maddening:angry:surely a form of discrimination.:sweatdrop

Would I be racist if I hate Kawasaki's? :wari:

[Solly]

Would I be racist if I hate Kawasaki's? :wari:

Foreshore, Foreshore eh?

[98tls]

Would I be racist if I hate Kawasaki's? :wari: Doubt it but the Greens wont like it.

[Trudes]

have you heard of the website, erm, I think it's lefthanded.com? (sorry if I put you crook!) something like that anyway, great for left handed scissors (and shtuff)

My mum used to own a butcher shop and we had a left handed aprentice butcher who was a bit dim, so as a joke one day she sent him down to the hardware store to buy himself a left-handed butcher knife. She'd rang ahead and warned them he was coming and to have it wrapped up and ready for him to bring back. So he gets back with this brown paper bag and he unwraps it. Poor buger thought he was finially going to get his special left-handed knife only to find a potato peeler in the bag. Oh how we laughed long and hard!! Anyway this has nothing to do with Treaty claims, so as you all were....

[Solly]

My mum used to own a butcher shop and we had a left handed aprentice butcher who was a bit dim, so as a joke one day she sent him down to the hardware store to buy himself a left-handed butcher knife. She'd rang ahead and warned them he was coming and to have it wrapped up and ready for him to bring back. So he gets back with this brown paper bag and he unwraps it. Poor buger thought he was finially going to get his special left-handed knife only to find a potato peeler in the bag. Oh how we laughed long and hard!! Anyway this has nothing to do with Treaty claims, so as you all were....

Nice distraction Trudes :yes::yes:

[Genestho]

My mum used to own a butcher shop and we had a left handed aprentice butcher who was a bit dim, so as a joke one day she sent him down to the hardware store to buy himself a left-handed butcher knife. She'd rang ahead and warned them he was coming and to have it wrapped up and ready for him to bring back. So he gets back with this brown paper bag and he unwraps it. Poor buger thought he was finially going to get his special left-handed knife only to find a potato peeler in the bag. Oh how we laughed long and hard!! Anyway this has nothing to do with Treaty claims, so as you all were....

Nice one doll!

[Goblin]

What happens to the money? My guess that cunt rikards will end up with a percentage of it.

[98tls]

My mum used to own a butcher shop and we had a left handed aprentice butcher who was a bit dim, so as a joke one day she sent him down to the hardware store to buy himself a left-handed butcher knife. She'd rang ahead and warned them he was coming and to have it wrapped up and ready for him to bring back. So he gets back with this brown paper bag and he unwraps it. Poor buger thought he was finially going to get his special left-handed knife only to find a potato peeler in the bag. Oh how we laughed long and hard!! Anyway this has nothing to do with Treaty claims, so as you all were.... lMAO,well done,was training a guy at work the last few weeks,told him to go to the office and ask for a "long weight" which he did,took him an hour and 1/2 before he finally clicked,we laughed our arses off.He went in there said "Mike told me to come and get a long weight" he was told "sure have a seat".

[Genestho]

lMAO,well done,was training a guy at work the last few weeks,told him to go to the office and ask for a "long weight" which he did,took him an hour and 1/2 before he finally clicked,we laughed our arses off.

Oh look you two, stop I'm all outta bling (across quite a few threads!!!! for 24 hrs arrrrghhh), I'm so so lost without it! :lol:

[doc]

Maori are defined by their whakapapa. This is no different today as of yesterday and is defined by their canoe, tribe, river, and mountain.

I made a post about them having some gene which prevented them from evolving. I based my post on a comment I heard from a Mental health professional study, it is starting to make a lot of sence to me.

[BMWST?]

Yes but most of the country's in the world are colonized by foreign people. This is just the way it goes, you can't take people tax money that is needed for a greater cause like health care and so on to a couple of Iwis who will just put them in their "mattress".

Look at Waikato Hospital, the hospital is in need of equipment for millions dollars becuase it is so unmodern and is way years after other country's. With new equipment and being able to offer to competitive wages the hospital would save much more lives. But no the treaty waitangi have to come first.

Kiwis have a common problem, no front thinking. Very impulsive and this attitude "i don't care" is like a pest goint through the people.

If the government in Sweden had given away millions of dollars to a race group of people and there were serious issues with poverty or bad health care, roads needs to be fixed, shortage of police, high criminality. The people had gone berserk! You just don't do anything like that, that is so hard to understand for me.
Europe has already had a far longer and much less civilised "integration".

[oldrider]

Its true maori children were given the strap in primary schools in the 1960s for speaking maori. Seems hard to believe today.

To be fair, times were different. Up to the 60s educationalists and maori parents believed the best way forward was for all maori to become fluent in English. This was a time (after WWII) when many maori moved from the countryside to the cities.

I was a child in the forties and both Maori and Pakeha kids were threatened for speaking Maori to one another at school!

Who was it that was driving this attitude? Maori Komatua and other elders!

It was the desire of the Maori of that time to get their kids fluent in English, the language of their future.

It pisses me off that Pakeha get all the blame for that!

My Grandchildren are registered Gnai Tahu and they have recieved financial aid for approved education support programs.

I believe the filtering process is alive and well within that Iwi at least.

My Grandchildren are as white as the driven snow but have as much or more Maori blood than many of the Maori who would condemn them as unwelcome Honkies!

Where will all this crap end, we are a grey nation lets move on into the future, the treaty was for the beginning of our nation, simply a means to an end.

I don't think the treaty was ever intended to be an end into it's self.

Too much has changed and even more will change in the future if we all respect the treaty and work towards that future together!

All this separatist talk and behaviour will get us nothing but grief! :argh:

[Morcs]

It pisses me off that Pakeha get all the blame for that!

Please stop using that word. Its racist.

[Quasievil]

Who was it that was driving this attitude? Maori Komatua and other elders!

It was the desire of the Maori of that time to get their kids fluent in English, the language of their future.



Thats not true, there were not many Maori teachers for a start.
This is well recorded as an frequent event in schools.

[Deano]

We were taught Maori at school in the late 70's. Quite a turn around in one decade, but let's keep on dredging up the past.

[kiwifruit]

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[oldrider]

Thats not true, there were not many Maori teachers for a start.
This is well recorded as an frequent event in schools.

Thats not true!........oh silly me, of course you were there? :mellow:

[Mr Merde]

Thats not true!........oh silly me, of course you were there? :mellow:

I remember a lot of Maori teachers in my past.
This was in the 50's and 60's

[Bonez]

This paper may be of interest to some here re teachers-
http://www.kaupapamaori.com/assets//diversity%20final.doc.pdf

[Winston001]

All this separatist talk and behaviour will get us nothing but grief! :argh:

Understand what you are saying John. I guess time will tell.

There are two mutually opposed views of the future human population:

1. We all eventually merge into a great melting pot until our genetics is so mixed that there are no separate races. Seems logical. Separate cultures disappear and we all become American/Chinese in our attitudes and language.

2. We fight against that, not by stopping interracial marriage, but by protecting indigenous cultures and languages. So the genetic mixing continues but locally some people choose to still practise and follow a certain culture.

I think diversity makes the world interesting and we learn about different points of view. I shudder when I hear and see young Kiwis looking and acting as though they were in South LA. Gangsta stuff. We become more Americanised all the time......and its bland.

NZ has a unique people and a unique culture. Maori. The impact young Kiwis have overseas when they do the haka is impressive. That's ours. Lets keep it.

[idb]

As I see it there can be no doubt that a signed agreement was broken and injustices were done, anyone that carries out the smallest trace of research will agree.

So, a signed contract has been broken and should be rectified.
There was no disputes process written into the contract that I'm aware of so both sides need to agree to this retrospectively.
We (the Crown and tribal representatives) have agreed to the process and are getting on with disputes resolution.

There will always be ignorants, leeches, thieves, whatever, that attempt to use grievances to make spurious claims for their own profit - that's just human nature.
To hold these people up as representative of all Maori is a misrepresentation.

It is not too hard to cite a real example to justify your own prejudices but these aren't the people that are involved in the Treaty negotiations.

So, let the negotiators negotiate (we did after all elect them) and meanwhile prosecute the criminals, debate with the "academics" and educate the ignorant.

[Quasievil]

Thats not true!........oh silly me, of course you were there? :mellow:

In 1867 the Native Schools Act decreed that English should be the only language used in the education of Māori children, which lead to many Māori children being punished for speaking their own language.

From the 1940s onwards, the Māori began migrating to urban areas where they were living amongst the English-speaking Pākehā. As a result, many of them chose to speak English and to raise their children as English speakers.

In the 1970s, Māori urban groups began to be concerned about the decline of the Māori language and set up various schemes and organisations to promote the language, including bilingual and Māori medium schools, radio stations and a TV channel.

[Finn]

So lets for a moment consider the grand mother of all settlements. Us guilty white folk fork out billions of dollars in cash and assets to pay for all the wrong doings and theft that apparently happened. Not a great fiscal move, but for the greater good of our great nation, the land of the long white overcoat.

Then what? Will they be content? Will they stop all this rebelling causing tremendous failings in our country? Will they finally rub noses with white folk, welcoming them to this great land and thank us for all the progress. "Hey bro, thanks for all the chickens aye."

I think not. There was that great maori king who said, "If we want the maori people to succeed, you must stop giving them things."

[idb]

So lets for a moment consider the grand mother of all settlements. Us guilty white folk fork out billions of dollars in cash and assets to pay for all the wrong doings and theft that apparently happened. Not a great fiscal move, but for the greater good of our great nation, the land of the long white overcoat.

Then what? Will they be content? Will they stop all this rebelling causing tremendous failings in our country? Will they finally rub noses with white folk, welcoming them to this great land and thank us for all the progress. "Hey bro, thanks for all the chickens aye."

I think not. There was that great maori king who said, "If we want the maori people to succeed, you must stop giving them things."

Who on earth are "they"?

[Finn]

Who on earth are "they"?

More to the point, when did Arrowtown get electricity?

[idb]

More to the point, when did Arrowtown get electricity?

Amateur!
Try again.

[Quasievil]

I think not. There was that great maori king who said, "If we want the maori people to succeed, you must stop giving them things."

Their was a succession of English Spanish French kings and Queens commanders and captains, who demanded the taking of things from "lesser beings" and theft plunder n pillaging of Land and Resources went on for hundreds of years from many countries just like NZ, the silly fuckers should have realised it would cause issues in the future that we know have to face and resolve.

Back in the day tho of course it was okay to do this under the guise of extending gods network and preaching Christianity blah blah

But now these countries are all settled and dominated suitably with various measures of control and institutionalised underclassing and youre all comfy in your flash cars and nice houses you want by gones to be by gones and lets all have a hug and forget about it????
I dont think so.
:gob::gob::gob:




(all the above was a big freckin shitstir lol)

[Genestho]

As I see it there can be no doubt that a signed agreement was broken and injustices were done, anyone that carries out the smallest trace of research will agree.

So, a signed contract has been broken and should be rectified.
There was no disputes process written into the contract that I'm aware of so both sides need to agree to this retrospectively.
We (the Crown and tribal representatives) have agreed to the process and are getting on with disputes resolution.

There will always be ignorants, leeches, thieves, whatever, that attempt to use grievances to make spurious claims for their own profit - that's just human nature.
To hold these people up as representative of all Maori is a misrepresentation.

It is not too hard to cite a real example to justify your own prejudices but these aren't the people that are involved in the Treaty negotiations.

So, let the negotiators negotiate (we did after all elect them) and meanwhile prosecute the criminals, debate with the "academics" and educate the ignorant.

*Sigh* Agreed and Agreed.
I have never said the stat's represent ALL Maori! The stats are over-represented by Maori!
The figures are REAL, not racist!
Do I understand correctly that anyone is prejudiced that dare speak out loud of such things?

See there's the barrier. (shakin my head) but you're right, they are not involved in the treaty negotiations.

Get it done, I am proud to be kiwi! Quasi said it best when he said kudos to NZ if we ever finish this job!

I just want to make sure the issues are corrected at the coal face.
And to be corrected communties affected need access to these claims too!

And I will disagree with this whole underclass thing - as a Kiwi!
I come from a poor background due to circumstances.
I got out from under poverty.
And through hard work and risks I turned my life around.
People do it all the time!
Would've been quite easy to blame poverty and past, as a reason to be anti-social my whole life and whinge and do nothing about it for myself!

Please don't confuse prejudice with reality!

[idb]

*Sigh* Agreed and Agreed.
I have never said the stat's represent ALL Maori! The stats are over-represented by Maori!
The figures are REAL, not racist!
Do I understand correctly that anyone is prejudiced that dare speak out loud of such things?

See there's the barrier. (shakin my head) but you're right, they are not involved in the treaty negotiations.

Get it done, I am proud to be kiwi! Quasi said it best when he said kudos to NZ if we ever finish this job!

I just want to make sure the issues are corrected at the coal face.
And to be corrected communties affected need access to these claims too!

And I will disagree with this whole underclass thing.
I come from a poor background due to circumstances.
I got out from under poverty.
And through hard work and risks I turned my life around.
People do it all the time!
Would've been quite easy to blame poverty and past, as a reason to be anti-social my whole life and whinge and do nothing about it for myself!

Please don't confuse prejudice with reality!

I knew that using the word prejudice would cause a reaction.
"Belief" might have been a safer word, I never meant it as a substitute for "racism".

What I meant was that an example can always be found to support an uninformed bias.

I suppose that statistics could be used the same way...but that would just be too cheeky to point out wouldn't it?

[Winston001]

*Sigh* Agreed and Agreed. I have never said the stat's represent ALL Maori! The stats are over-represented by Maori!...

See there's the barrier. (shakin my head) but you're right, they are not involved in the treaty negotiations....

I just want to make sure the issues are corrected at the coal face. And to be corrected communities affected need access to these claims too!

.....through hard work and risks I turned my life around. People do it all the time!


Please don't confuse prejudice with reality!

I don't think you and IDB really disagree. Words on the net can get misinterpreted.

It isn't racist to point out Maori statistics in prisons and poverty. Its just that this isn't relevant to the Treaty issues.

As for the coal-face - Maori iwi would say they already provide jobs and scholarships etc etc. They expect urban maori to make an effort and take those opportunities. And to learn about maori culture, not just expect a handout.

What that means is those who rejoice in the gang/alcohol/drug lifestyle aren't going to collect from the settlements. But maybe their children will have a chance.

[Genestho]

I don't think you and IDB really disagree. Words on the net can get misinterpreted. Agreed!!!It isn't racist to point out Maori statistics in prisons and poverty. Its just that this isn't relevant to the Treaty issues. It's all become a bit circular, but as I said in an earlier post I was referring to the last part of the question of the OP!!
As for the coal-face - Maori iwi would say they already provide jobs and scholarships etc etc. They expect urban maori to make an effort and take those opportunities. And to learn about maori culture, not just expect a handout.

What that means is those who rejoice in the gang/alcohol/drug lifestyle aren't going to collect from the settlements. But maybe their children will have a chance.

Mmm, I don't mean receiving claims as individuals, what I'm trying to ascertain, is if these communities, that need the support, are receiving programs funded by claims that will assist them to get the support needed, to start to correct the poverty/prison stats, and is the funding making it that far?

What is being done, what's out there? I guess because of the 'stats' I too ask the same part of the question as the OP (yes stats can be manipulated I know this!) Maybe I too reiterate that part of the question in the wrong place?

[Genestho]

I suppose that statistics could be used the same way...but that would just be too cheeky to point out wouldn't it?

Not at all!!!

[Skyryder]

I'm still waiting for some kind of thank you for my culture giving Maori a written language.

Just an official acknowledgment of gratitude will do.


Skyryder

[Quasievil]

I'm still waiting for some kind of thank you for my culture giving Maori a written language.

Just an official acknowledgment of gratitude will do.


Skyryder

chur bro...........

[Bonez]

It isn't racist to point out Maori statistics in prisons and poverty. It's not as if assistance hasn't been given in the past either-
http://executive.govt.nz/93-96/minister/luxton/maori/employ.htm

[Solly]

I'm still waiting for some kind of thank you for my culture giving Maori a written language.

Just an official acknowledgment of gratitude will do.


Skyryder

Chur chur cuz...that was "chur -iffic" of youse fullas :woohoo:

[oldrider]

It never fails to amaze me how circumstances can change points of view and level even the deepest prejudices.

I will try to explain what I mean by the following.

People travelling overseas and far away from our shores and absent for quite a long time, who quite by chance, hear an accent from home can attest to what I mean.

All our preconceptions of "they" "them" or "that", go straight out the window, just bumping into somebody from home is like finding pure gold!

We cling to our heritage and roots (someone from home) with a desperation unmatched in any other circumstances and it has to be experienced to be appreciated.

So why can't we respect and appreciate each other with the same enthusiasm while we are at home!

Remember Kennedy calling to America something similar to the following?

"Ask not what New Zealand can do for you but what you can do for New Zealand"

[Robert Taylor]

of course there is an end in sight, every couple of years we make a large final settlement to settle all disputes

and then a couple of years later another large payment is made to settle all disputes

and then a couple of years later another large payment is made to settle all disputes

and then a couple of years later another large payment is made to settle all disputes

and then a couple of years later another large payment is made to settle all disputes

I had a guts full of this 10 years ago and left NZ for good as I was sick of being treated as a second class citizen

and then a couple of years later another large payment is made to settle all disputes

and then a couple of years later another large payment is made to settle all disputes


And is also relevant to add that if youve got ( for example ) 5% Maori blood in you then the 95% European blood you have is oppressing that 5%.
What a perverse mentality. The blame culture is alive and well in NZ and its not only the exclusive preserve of who got here first ( certainly not the maoris ) etc, ad infinitum.

[scumdog]

Pay out on a pro-rata basis.

You're 25% Maori - ya get 25% of the likely payout etc..

Why, in about 50 years EVERYBODY in NZ will get $27:86 each...."and everyone's a winner":woohoo:

[popelli]

NZ has a unique people and a unique culture. Maori.

That is just one of the cultures, what about all the other cultures introduced by successive migrations of people to NZ

A unique Kiwi culture would include parts from all of the cultrures to make a unique blend, not have one culture dominate to the exclusion and detriment of all other cultures.

[ynot slow]

I thought indiginous(sp)meant those born in that country,not those who say they were here first(immigrantes),so on that basis all NZ people born in this place should be entitled to the dough.

Can remember 20 years ago the ex in laws wanted to sell some land(10acres) they leased off the local iwi,and buy 30 for same value closer to their farm boundary,to sell they needed 75% of the iwi sign the contract,they managed that and some older people couldn't write so signed by an x.The settlement went through a week before xmas,after milking that Friday we shot off to the local pub for a couple of beers before tea,a few of the local iwi were enjoying their payout,don't think we bought more than 2 beers,left about 8.30pm semi pissed.

Some got $500 others got $5000,the ones with the larger payout were able to amass more shares by buying their family and friends shares when they wanted money to buy anything from TVs or cars.Moral then was unscrupulous maori ripping off less fortunate ones,happened then will do so now.

[kiwi cowboy]

Hahahaha!!!

Have another read of what you have wrote............

You are saying that, had the European not arrived, there would be no "part breeds" to claim anything.
Soooooo.....what you are REALLY saying is that part maori are also part something else...European then??.....so we are all getting some benifet from any payouts....
...........seems to me It's a classic case of Dr Seuss's "Star Belly Sneeches" :rofl::rofl::bleh:

On another note.......Just to put you right Grahameeboy.....In one of your previous threads [correct me if I'm wrong]...I think you were referring to the Morioris (you spelt it differently) as being here before the Maori.......they were NOT....as simple as that.

ONCE APON A TIME MOUI WENT FISHING:yes::Oops:

[kiwi cowboy]

lMAO,well done,was training a guy at work the last few weeks,told him to go to the office and ask for a "long weight" which he did,took him an hour and 1/2 before he finally clicked,we laughed our arses off.He went in there said "Mike told me to come and get a long weight" he was told "sure have a seat".

Son of a fella i worked for had this happen so went to the place he got told to go to and ask for a long wait and got told just a sec we will find one and this fella said he would wait outside cos it was hot inside and buggered off home for the rest of the day:yes:Guess he had the last laugh;)

[scracha]

So, a signed contract has been broken and should be rectified.


Totally disagree. MANY other countries have broken treaties, nothing was rectified and for better or worse, life went, and still does go on. Why keep apologising? 'The Crown' should just turn around, say 'yes, we as the more advanced civilisation gave you the shaft. Now just be grateful we didn't slaughter you and get on with MODERN life'



Or am I just shit stirring

[Mr Merde]

......


Or am I just shit stirring

Its a possibility but I am hedging my bets but letting my apathetic heritage take control.

[Skyryder]

Pay out on a pro-rata basis.

You're 25% Maori - ya get 25% of the likely payout etc..

Why, in about 50 years EVERYBODY in NZ will get $27:86 each...."and everyone's a winner":woohoo:


Makes sense to me. But why wait fifty years?? I should be able to claim now for my future generations.:woohoo:


Skyryder

[Finn]

People travelling overseas and far away from our shores and absent for quite a long time, who quite by chance, hear an accent from home can attest to what I mean.

I remember many years ago when I was living in Stockholm meeting up with a maori. During his 10 years there he managed to breed with a Swedish woman who left him after the novelty of having a drunken warrior wore off, couldn't speak a word of Swedish and thanks to his half Swedish/Maori offspring managed to get on a benefit.

Actually, when I heard his "accent" I cringed.

Whenever I'm in London and hear that twangy kiwi accent fueled with alcohol, I find it hard not to dry reach and avoid at all cost. Dead beats.

[Quasievil]

I remember many years ago when I was living in Stockholm meeting up with a maori. During his 10 years there he managed to breed with a Swedish woman who left him after the novelty of having a drunken warrior wore off, couldn't speak a word of Swedish and thanks to his half Swedish/Maori offspring managed to get on a benefit.

Actually, when I heard his "accent" I cringed.

Whenever I'm in London and hear that twangy kiwi accent fueled with alcohol, I find it hard not to dry reach and avoid at all cost. Dead beats.

yeah go to the CHURCH here (http://www.thechurch.co.uk/home) to see all the stupid Maoris on the piss....................hang on they are all white, bloody dead beats all right ;)

[Katman]

hang on they are all white, bloody dead beats all right ;)

That's right, they were all able to get passports.

:msn-wink:

[James Deuce]

Totally disagree. MANY other countries have broken treaties, nothing was rectified and for better or worse, life went, and still does go on. Why keep apologising? 'The Crown' should just turn around, say 'yes, we as the more advanced civilisation gave you the shaft. Now just be grateful we didn't slaughter you and get on with MODERN life'



Or am I just shit stirring
Even if you are shit stirring, you need to ditch the "more advanced" tripe. A couple of thousand Northland Maori, in their spare time, invented mondern warfare concepts, like trenches, strategic forts, bunkers, and pallisades with firing holes at ground level. They cost the British Empire the equivalent of billions of dollars, shipping increasingly large numbers of regular force troops to NZ. Individual tribes, not a Nation, embarrassed the British Empire. The only reason NZ wasn't another Afghanistan was the lack of unity between Maori, and the fact that their troops were part timers. Come harvest/planting time and only the old and infirm were available to "fight".

The treaty was engineered by the NZ Company and presented by the Crown. Both had very different expectations of what they'd gain from the treaty.

There was no totally successful military campaign fought and won against Maori as a whole. The treaty issues revolve around land appropriated without any consent, let alone payment. Of course once you have weight of numbers on your side because your logistics can move more people more quickly, the argument becomes moot. The current round of hand wringing is inspired by equal parts ignorance from both sides. It's the usual faith vs knowledge rubbish that is increasingly becoming a product of the "information age". Both sides believe in the immutable righteousness of their cause, and in my book that is evil incarnate. Religion should never be the basis of any attempt at justice, understanding, and forward planning.

[Quasievil]

Even if you are shit stirring, you need to ditch the "more advanced" tripe. A couple of thousand Northland Maori, in their spare time, invented mondern warfare concepts, like trenches, strategic forts, bunkers, and pallisades with firing holes at ground level. They cost the British Empire the equivalent of billions of dollars, shipping increasingly large numbers of regular force troops to NZ. Individual tribes, not a Nation, embarrassed the British Empire. The only reason NZ wasn't another Afghanistan was the lack of unity between Maori, and the fact that their troops were part timers. Come harvest/planting time and only the old and infirm were available to "fight".

The treaty was engineered by the NZ Company and presented by the Crown. Both had very different expectations of what they'd gain from the treaty.

There was no totally successful military campaign fought and won against Maori as a whole. The treaty issues revolve around land appropriated without any consent, let alone payment. Of course once you have weight of numbers on your side because your logistics can move more people more quickly, the argument becomes moot. The current round of hand wringing is inspired by equal parts ignorance from both sides. It's the usual faith vs knowledge rubbish that is increasingly becoming a product of the "information age". Both sides believe in the immutable righteousness of their cause, and in my book that is evil incarnate. Religion should never be the basis of any attempt at justice, understanding, and forward planning.


No that was a good post, kudos.

I loved the documentry series the new zealand wars, it was on a few years back, basically the Maori kicked the white fellas arses on numerous occasions.

[Winston001]

That is just one of the cultures, what about all the other cultures introduced by successive migrations of people to NZ

A unique Kiwi culture would include parts from all of the cultures to make a unique blend, not have one culture dominate to the exclusion and detriment of all other cultures.

Because of our isolation as remote islands, we have an unusually clear choice. Maori culture. This (and the Cook Islands) is the only place in the world where Maori is spoken. Maori culture exists nowhere else. Grab it while we can.

Other cultures - when I was very young in the 60s, there were still a few people here who spoke Gaelic. Older people talked about Home = Britain. Childrens books were british.

Today thats all gone. Looking at my own children, they are American with Kiwi accents. Their saving grace is they enjoy Monty Python. :2thumbsup:


Totally disagree. MANY other countries have broken treaties, nothing was rectified and for better or worse, life went, and still does go on. Why keep apologising? 'The Crown' should just turn around, say 'yes, we as the more advanced civilisation gave you the shaft. Now just be grateful we didn't slaughter you and get on with MODERN life'



Forget and move on......you mean just like the rest of the world?

Here's a quick list from Wikipedia: you'll note these are not racial movements. NB - Maori ambitions are so minor they don't even appear. ;)


Ethnic separatism is based more on cultural and linguistic differences than religious or racial differences


* Separatist movements of Northern Italy called Padania
* the Kurdish people whose lands and peoples were divided between Turkey, Syria, Iraq after World War I.
Also the Kurdish region in Iran.
* the Tuareg separatists in Niger and Mali.[17]
* Separatist movements of India including Insurgency in Jammu and Kashmir and Insurgent groups in Northeast India.
* Spain’s Basque and Catalan separatists.
* France's Basque, Catalan, Corsican and Breton separatists,
* the Soviet Union’s dissolution into its original ethnic groupings which formed their own nations of Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Russia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, and Uzbekistan.
* Czechoslovakia’s split into ethnic Czech and Slovakian republics in 1993.
* the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia dissolution into ethnic (and religious) based Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, Slovenia, Montenegro, Serbia and Kosovo.
* Belgium granting Dutch-speaking Flanders and French-speaking Wallonia greater autonomy.
* Switzerland’s division into cantons along geographical, religious and linguistic lines.[18]
* French-speaking Quebec debating and voting on separation from Canada over several decades.
* Africa’s hundreds of ethnic groups[19] are subsumed into 53 nation states, often leading to ethnic conflict and separatism,[20] including in Angola, Algeria, Burundi, Congo and The Democratic Republic of the Congo, Darfur in Sudan, Ethiopia, Senegal, Somalia, South Africa, Uganda, Western Sahara and Zimbabwe.
* The Nigerian civil war (also known as the Biafran war) during the 1960s among Igbos, Hausa-Fulani and Yoruba; today’s ethnic and oil-related conflict in the Niger Delta of Nigeria.
* Conflicts in Liberia between African-Liberians and Americo-Liberians, Africans who immigrated from the Americas after being freed from slavery.
* Conflicts between Zulus and Xhosa in South Africa during and after apartheid.[21]
* Boere-Afrikaner separatists.
* The 1994 Hutu campaign of genocide against minority Tutsis in Rwanda. (See: Rwandan Genocide)
* Indian and Pakistani ethnic and linguistic groups seeking greater autonomy.[22][23]
* China's Tibet and Xinjiang regions have separatist governments in exile.[24]
* Sri Lanka's ethnic Tamil minority separatism in Tamil Eelam.
* Texas separatism in the United States.[25]
* Yugoslavia's ethnic Albanian minority separatism in Kosovo.
* Chechen separatism in the Caucasus
* Burma’s ethnic Arakan, Chin, Kachin, Karen, Shan, Wa separatism.
* Separatism in Silesia
* Free Papua Movement in Indonesia
* Armenian separatists of Nagorno-Karabakh in Azerbaijan.
* South Ossetia and Abkhazia separatism in Georgia.
* Anjouan's separatism in Union of Comoros

[Mr Merde]

...A couple of thousand Northland Maori, in their spare time, invented mondern warfare concepts, like trenches, strategic forts, bunkers, and pallisades with firing holes at ground level. ....

Here I have to disagree with you.

Sure they used these techiques against a force that was still using tactics from the Napoleonic wars but they cant lay claim to inventing them.

You only have to look back to the Romans to see that they employed the same strategies apart from the firing holes for rifles, they had them for bows.

The Normans built these hilltop fortifcations and centuries before them so did the Celts (2500-3000 years ago).

The ancient Greeks, the ancient Chinese, the Egyptians, the Persians all had this type of fortification thousands of years befor it was used here in NZ.

[Finn]

A couple of thousand Northland Maori, in their spare time, invented mondern warfare concepts, like trenches, strategic forts, bunkers, and pallisades with firing holes at ground level.

It was purely accidental. We all know the mighty warriors lust for food. The trenches, bunkers and firing holes where just left over hungi pits. "They're coming! Quick bro, jump in here!"

In Rotorua, these pits filled with warm water which the warriors would sit in while hiding from the enemy. A steady diet of Colonel Cooks deep fried Moa gave them terrible gas which led to a lot of bubbles. The stench was unbearable but they dare jump out for fear of being shot. Instead, they inflicted much pain on one another by sparing. So there we have it. Maori actually invented what we know today as the spa pool.

[James Deuce]

Here I have to disagree with you.

Sure they used these techiques against a force that was still using tactics from the Napoleonic wars but they cant lay claim to inventing them.

You only have to look back to the Romans to see that they employed the same strategies apart from the firing holes for rifles, they had them for bows.

The Normans built these hilltop fortifcations and centuries before them so did the Celts (2500-3000 years ago).

The ancient Greeks, the ancient Chinese, the Egyptians, the Persians all had this type of fortification thousands of years befor it was used here in NZ.

Within the concept of modern warfare using weapons produced by industry, Northland Maori can easily lay claim to being the first "indigenous people" to invent these concepts.

You're completely ignoring the application of these inventions too.

The firing holes were at the bottom of the pallisade. Not set into the side with people standing on firing platforms. The pallisades were built with a gap at the bottom and the blokes with the muskets stood in trenches to fire. The bunkers were designed to resist cannon fire, and by strategic fort, I'm not talking Pa, or a fortified villiage. The fort was entirely strategic. It served no other purpose than to make a British brigade drag their heavy weapons miles into uncharted bush to fight maybe half a dozen blokes, who would wait out the initial engagement, kill a couple of soldiers as the fort was stormed so that the Brits would withdraw, and by the time the second bombardment was over, the half a dozen blokes would be long gone, and planning where to build the next strategic fort, deeper in heavy bush.

Intersecting herringbone trenches were not a feature of Roman or Norman warfare, and the Brits were so impressed with the concepts, they built models, wrote books, sotred them in the Imperial War Museum, and then promptly forgot all the lessons they learned and made the same mistakes over and over in WW1.

Most of these ideas came from the brain of a Maori in his 70s with no access to the classics. Kawiti was a military genius.

[ElCoyote]

Bullshit. WHat about poor farmers who have to give up their land, because some maori decided he was related to some chief 7 generations ago.


Now seems to be the right time to introduce Alan Titford. Not heard of him..............Google is your friend.

And by the way Morcs, you are quite correct

[Mr Merde]

Now seems to be the right time to introduce Alan Titford. Not heard of him..............Google is your friend.

And by the way Morcs, you are quite correct

I posted a reference to this earlier this earlier but seems to have been ignored, not convienient maybe?

[James Deuce]

No it sucked. The In-Laws lost a few 10s of acres 20 years ago too. Stuff does suck though.

[Morcs]

Now seems to be the right time to introduce Alan Titford. Not heard of him..............Google is your friend.

And by the way Morcs, you are quite correct

Thankyou. I just didnt know where to look, but had heard of it.

[Winston001]

I posted a reference to this earlier this earlier but seems to have been ignored, not convienient maybe?

Yes you did but the link is to Titford's own report which isn't exactly unbiased. Besides the guy got $3.25 million in 1995. Not bad, not bad at all. He took his money to Oz and I imagine has done well since. Good luck to him.

This particular land dispute goes back to at least the 1940s, long before Titford came along: - here's a quote:

"As Judge Acheson said in 1942, the circumstances of the case "cry aloud for redress... no matter what cost to the Crown this may involve" (A3:179)"

Mr Titford conveniently ignores Judge Acheson's call decades before his own problems arose.

Lets forget about Maori claims for a moment - recently I had a piece of land taken off my family for road widening. I was livid. I'm a lawyer. And I was stuck with it. No way out.

Ultimately the Government can take your land for the greater good of the community. It sucks but its also fair enough. You get market compensation plus they will bend over backwards to do stuff to make it palatable. And you can go to the Land Valuation Tribunal to argue, so we aren't without rights.

So....if we look at the Titford situation, recognise Titford himself came very late to the party (he must have known about the land disputes), recognise that he got generously paid, and it was for the greater public good....is it really a problem?

[Katman]

Lets forget about Maori claims for a moment - recently I had a piece of land taken off my family for road widening. I was livid. I'm a lawyer. And I was stuck with it. No way out.



You shoulda said that a Taniwha lived on it.

You coulda got heeeaps for it bro.

[James Deuce]

It was purely accidental. We all know the mighty warriors lust for food. The trenches, bunkers and firing holes where just left over hungi pits. "They're coming! Quick bro, jump in here!"

In Rotorua, these pits filled with warm water which the warriors would sit in while hiding from the enemy. A steady diet of Colonel Cooks deep fried Moa gave them terrible gas which led to a lot of bubbles. The stench was unbearable but they dare jump out for fear of being shot. Instead, they inflicted much pain on one another by sparing. So there we have it. Maori actually invented what we know today as the spa pool.

Bugger. I was about to patent the methane powered spa pool too.

[ElCoyote]

Yes you did but the link is to Titford's own report which isn't exactly unbiased. Besides the guy got $3.25 million in 1995. Not bad, not bad at all. He took his money to Oz and I imagine has done well since. Good luck to him.

This particular land dispute goes back to at least the 1940s, long before Titford came along: - here's a quote:

"As Judge Acheson said in 1942, the circumstances of the case "cry aloud for redress... no matter what cost to the Crown this may involve" (A3:179)"

Mr Titford conveniently ignores Judge Acheson's call decades before his own problems arose.

Lets forget about Maori claims for a moment - recently I had a piece of land taken off my family for road widening. I was livid. I'm a lawyer. And I was stuck with it. No way out.

Ultimately the Government can take your land for the greater good of the community. It sucks but its also fair enough. You get market compensation plus they will bend over backwards to do stuff to make it palatable. And you can go to the Land Valuation Tribunal to argue, so we aren't without rights.

So....if we look at the Titford situation, recognise Titford himself came very late to the party (he must have known about the land disputes), recognise that he got generously paid, and it was for the greater public good....is it really a problem?

I don't think the 3.5M figure is correct but with the burning of his dwelling and the sabotage of his equipment, not to mention the harrassment of his family by gutless thugs, I think he was entitled to every penny

[ElCoyote]

ONCE APON A TIME MOUI WENT FISHING:yes::Oops:

So did Maui, perhaps they shared a waka?

[ElCoyote]

Chur chur cuz...that was "chur -iffic" of youse fullas :woohoo:

Tanks for the "H" in Wanganui bro. Choice eh?

[ElCoyote]

[QUOTE=duckonin;Land better with the Maori yeah right it would all be back in gorse in a few short years...:Oops:[/QUOTE]


Ask Quasi what state the Raglan Golf Course is in today, and that was the first piece of land supposedly "given back"

[Winston001]

I don't think the 3.5M figure is correct but with the burning of his dwelling and the sabotage of his equipment, not to mention the harrassment of his family by gutless thugs, I think he was entitled to every penny

Agreed he had a tough time and no-one should have to experience what happened to him. However he wasn't exactly listening and was pretty aggressive. Maori wanted access to burial grounds on his farm - I suggest most people would be sympathetic to that. Titford refused.

I think Quasi says it all:




.....for example I discovered that my Grandfather (a paramount chief- he was a signatory to the treaty) and was highly regarded by many, died and was buried just outside Bulls on top of a small hill.

This prime spot was later regarded by an army big wig as an ideal spot to bury his war hero Horse, grandads grave was bowled over and replaced with a monument to a fucking horse.

Thats a demonstration of the relevance the government had for Maori, do you think they cared about their land or anything else for that matter ??

[Winston001]

Ask Quasi what state the Raglan Golf Course is in today, and that was the first piece of land supposedly "given back"

I think you'll find Bastion Point is the first modern settlement on Maori. Its a reserve now and a very nice spot. It was going to be turned into a subdivision in 1978.

I've never heard anyone say that Bastion Point should be covered with houses instead of being preserved.

[SPman]

I think you'll find Bastion Point is the first modern settlement on Maori. Its a reserve now and a very nice spot. It was going to be turned into a subdivision in 1978.

I've never heard anyone say that Bastion Point should be covered with houses instead of being preserved.
There were plenty saying that in the '70's!

But Im proud that as a New Zealander we can address this shit and move on as opposed to hoping it will all go away like most other countries.............thats kudos for us isnt it?
Address it, deal thoroughly and fairly to all the issues (shit, there are claims that date back through the courts to at least the 1870's that keep getting put in the "too hard, leave it and hope it goes away" basket), suck it up, pay our dues and put things as right as it is possible to get at this remove from events, regardless of the howls of outrage from those suffering from collective hysterical jealousy, and then there should be a firm base to settle down and move on.
Until then, with acts like Labour's shafting of due process to try and buy of the baying "Maori get to much I don't get anything" vote, the whole scene is like a festering, scabby pus ridden sore, being half heartedly picked at, with no one prepared to get stuck in and clean it out so the wound can heal, and that does no credit to too many people........

[Katman]

the whole scene is like a festering, scabby pus ridden sore, being half heartedly picked at, with no one prepared to get stuck in and clean it out so the wound can heal, and that does no credit to too many people........

You've gotta admit though, there's something oh so indescribably satisfying about picking at scabs.






Or is that just me?

:crazy:

[SPman]

say............:scratch:........:slap:




you're right! :blip:

[popelli]

Because of our isolation as remote islands, we have an unusually clear choice. Maori culture. This (and the Cook Islands) is the only place in the world where Maori is spoken. Maori culture exists nowhere else.

Not quite correct

A dialect of Maori is also spoken in Hawaii where the Rarotongans came from originally.

And if we are to be perfectly politically correct we would teach the 7 different regional tribal dialects of maori rather than enforce one dialect onto the rest of the country

This would also create additional opportuinities for teaching maori language in schools, we could also have 7 regional maori TV channels and also 7 regional radio shows

However the cost to the general economy of the resultant improved and enlarged maori language industry consuming vast amounts up the taxpayers money would be a fiscal disaster

Over the last 40 years I have watched Maori place names change pronounciation in the name of political correctness as one dialect is enforced over another tribes pronounciation of their region

However your clear case of choosing maori culture to the exclusion of all other cultures is denying 80 - 90 % of the population a right to celebrate their own cultures and be recognised and celebrated as part of the fabric of the general society - this is hardly the mark of a modern democratic society

[Bonez]

Agreed he had a tough time and no-one should have to experience what happened to him. However he wasn't exactly listening and was pretty aggressive. Maori wanted access to burial grounds on his farm There were no bones found in the specific section of land claimed to be a Maori burial ground.

[Solly]

Shit, what a cracker history lesson
this thread is!!!

[Winston001]

Over the last 40 years I have watched Maori place names change pronounciation in the name of political correctness as one dialect is enforced over another tribes pronounciation of their region

But what I don't get is why you or anyone else feels threatened by this?


However your clear case of choosing maori culture to the exclusion of all other cultures is denying 80 - 90 % of the population a right to celebrate their own cultures and be recognised and celebrated as part of the fabric of the general society - this is hardly the mark of a modern democratic society

Not at all. No-one has said or suggested that anywhere in this discussion. The people of Dannevirke celebrate their Danish heritage. The French settlement on Akaroa is kept very alive.

Personally my culture is Scottish even though I'm at least 3 generations removed from Scotland. I love it but also barely think about it.

My kids are culturally English/Scottish/Israeli but they are kiwis first and foremost. They are growing up comfortable with Maori language and culture. Great. I don't feel in the slightest bit afraid or bothered by that. They'll eventually visit the other places, but they will still be kiwis.

Its a big world. New Zealanders get mistaken for Aussies or Brits all the time. Doing - and understanding - a haka does set us apart. :yes: Its a simplistic example but makes the point.

[Bonez]

Its a big world. New Zealanders get mistaken for Aussies or Brits all the time. Doing - and understanding - a haka does set us apart. :yes: Its a simplistic example but makes the point.It's not quite the same when pasty poms with hankies on the noggins do it eh?

[Solly]

It's not quite the same when pasty poms with hankies on the noggins do it eh?

....or pasty white maoris for that matter :rofl::rofl::laugh:

[Bonez]

....or pasty white maoris for that matter :rofl::rofl::laugh:About 70% of them then?;) Morris (or should that be Maoris) dancing anyone?:wacko:
http://www.cs.uky.edu/~klapper/morris.html

[Solly]

........Morris (or should that be Maoris) dancing anyone?:wacko:

Haha......oh crap, don't go there for christ sake :crazy::laugh:

[popelli]

But what I don't get is why you or anyone else feels threatened by this?


Who said I felt threatened?

[Bonez]

This is what my honky sheila of a wife gets up to while I'm at work.

[Solly]

This is what my honky sheila of a wife gets up to while I'm at work.

Sweeeeeet cuz........that is some talented lady you have there :niceone:

[The Stranger]

I think Quasi says it all:

All of what exactly?

[Bonez]

Sweeeeeet cuz........that is some talented lady you have there :niceone:Chur, passed that on. Got a carved head I call Henare at work in my bay. He's there to stop alians invading.
Dried and shrunken heads are a no no know days, unfortunately.

Second pic below shows a head in the process of being sold. Probably for muskets and gun powder.

[Argyle]

You probably heard on the news about hunters being attacked in the forest by "gang members"!
Well this is nothing more then Maori! They don't like them to hunt in "their" forest.
So they assault the hunters and take their weapons!

Europeans should stop Maori from entering everything that is European immigrant owned then, it's European.
European should start a party also, The European party!

[Solly]

You probably heard on the news about hunters being attacked in the forest by "gang members"!
Well this is nothing more then Maori! They don't like them to hunt in "their" forest.
So they assault the hunters and take their weapons!

Europeans should stop Maori from entering everything that is European immigrant owned then, it's European.
European should start a party also, The European party!

FFS pull your head out of your arse!!!

[scracha]

Other cultures - when I was very young in the 60s, there were still a few people here who spoke Gaelic.

School-kids got the cane if they spoke Gaelic.



Forget and move on......you mean just like the rest of the world?

Yeah...most of the rest of the world. Visit some of these countries. You'll find the majority of punters in these nations get on with their daily lives and embrace modern life as much as possible. The seperatist fanatics make up the minority.

[hospitalfood]

there are so many racist people posting on this thread!
why don't you racist folk just get honest, you hate maori people!
your parents probably hated them, and sadly your children will probably hate them.

and you wonder what it is all about and why they are able to make all these claims? has it crossed your mind that possibly it is because of the way maori people have been treated over the last 150 years buy white trash uneducated racist scum, or are you just so fucking stupid you cannot make the connection!


adam, the nz euro.

[popelli]

This is what my honky sheila of a wife gets up to while I'm at work.

I hope she is paying royalties to the local tribe, one would not want to be accused off ripping off the artwork that the tribes "own"

[Bonez]

I hope she is paying royalties to the local tribe, one would not want to be accused off ripping off the artwork that the tribes "own"Nah mate shes earnt the right to carve them. Also her mentor carries a lot of weight amongst the local iwi.

[oldrider]

You probably heard on the news about hunters being attacked in the forest by "gang members"!
Well this is nothing more then Maori! They don't like them to hunt in "their" forest.
So they assault the hunters and take their weapons!

Europeans should stop Maori from entering everything that is European immigrant owned then, it's European.
European should start a party also, The European party!


FFS pull your head out of your arse!!!

Sound advise I'm afraid Argyle, take a deep breath and hold it as long as you can then start all over! :yes:

The individuals involved in those incidents are not representative of Maori!

They are just that individuals like your self, reacting emotionally without thinking things through! :confused:

Understandably irrational but unrealistically impulsive! :nono:

[Katman]

You probably heard on the news about hunters being attacked in the forest by "gang members"!
Well this is nothing more then Maori! They don't like them to hunt in "their" forest.
So they assault the hunters and take their weapons!

Europeans should stop Maori from entering everything that is European immigrant owned then, it's European.
European should start a party also, The European party!


there are so many racist people posting on this thread!
why don't you racist folk just get honest, you hate maori people!
your parents probably hated them, and sadly your children will probably hate them.

and you wonder what it is all about and why they are able to make all these claims? has it crossed your mind that possibly it is because of the way maori people have been treated over the last 150 years buy white trash uneducated racist scum, or are you just so fucking stupid you cannot make the connection!


Thank fuck there's many shades of grey between these black and whites.

[oldrider]

Thank fuck there's many shades of grey between these black and whites.

:eek: I find myself agreeing with dreaded Katman! :eek5:

Thank fuck for the the "them" who dwell between the bookends. :yes:

[PrincessBandit]

Thank fuck there's many shades of grey between these black and whites.

Well there's the Maori Party, someone suggested a European Party, we have Grey Power - who knows they might become the Grey Party. So grey would be officially represented somewhere between black and white??

[Bonez]

Well there's the Maori Party, someone suggested a European Party, we have Grey Power - who knows they might become the Grey Party. So grey would be officially represented somewhere between black and white??Very insightfull lass. Us gingas are under represented so I propose a Ginga Party. Maori gingas welcome.

[oldrider]

Very insightfull lass. Us gingas are under represented so I propose a Ginga Party. Maori gingas welcome.

Well, there were plenty of them (Maori gingas and blondies) when I was a kid in Hawke Bay! :yes:

[Bonez]

Well, there were plenty of them (Maori gingas and blondies) when I was a kid in Hawke Bay! :yes:Especially up Wairora way eh? Had more frekles than my fellow siblings or myself.

[PrincessBandit]

... Us gingas are under represented so I propose a Ginga Party. Maori gingas welcome.

Yep, official representation seems to make all the difference ;)

[scumdog]

So why did the Maori leave wherever it was they left to come to NZ?

Pro-active travel agent with great salesmanship???

Heard from the Poms it was a great place to go to??

[scracha]

why don't you racist folk just get honest, you hate maori people!


I don't hate any particular race*, we were all created equal and should be treated as such. It dismays me that racial separation increasingly seems to happen at school in this country and the powers that be actively encourage it. I have worked and lived with people of many different cultures and colour. ]
Why is not agreeing with the point of view that one particular group in this country should get special treatment considered racist? The vast majority of Maori land that was sold after the treaty was done fairly. For sure, there should be compensation for the minority of land that was confiscated. Maori were not the only people who got 'their land' confiscated after the treaty was signed, but that injustice has not and probably never will be addressed. So just who is being racist?



*.well..except the Belgians cos both times I visited their country they were without exception incredibly rude.

[trump-lady]

I am really sad reading this thread and seeing the tags to this thread. Im glad my ansesters can not see this crap. I am always proud to say I am Maori from New Zealand but I am not proud to say I belong to a group that has created such a thread.

I urge everyone to attend a tikanga Maori class. I could write for days in response to things I have seen on here (and in other threads ) but wont because I would become so upset at the inability for others to educate themselves before they speak.

The majority attitude here is typical and here lay the problem. I liken it so you can understand it:

Its like someone talking constantly to a professional biker about riding when they havent ever been on a bike and in reality just dont get it but think they do cause their grandfather had one.

Being brown doesn’t justify your mouth to run either.

I imagine that those who could run rings around these comments will not bother too as they have come to learn that some people just dont want to learn and are stuck on what they heard, were taught or saw.

If you want to speak about claims then take your ass to a tribunal case, go to the meetings, listen to the elders, educate yourself by participation NOT by reading what others interpretations are. Go to a lecture, sit in on college level class on Treaty claims, talk to those who dedicate their lives to defending the Treaty, be open to JUST LISTEN and ask them WHY they feel its so important
-not someone who hasn’t even heard of the three P's and then
..... maybe you might begin to speak on the topic.

If non riders gave us the same respect maybe we could make them undertand why we love to ride.

Nga Puhi descendant

[Rayray401]

Ok, i read the first 5 pages of this thread..but cant be bothered reading the rest, i would agree with trump lady there...but coming back to the question..where do the claims end? i mean surely..after taking into account for 150 years of inflation etc. its going to be billions..but surely there is an amount?

[oldrider]

I am really sad reading this thread and seeing the tags to this thread. Im glad my ansesters can not see this crap. I am always proud to say I am Maori from New Zealand but I am not proud to say I belong to a group that has created such a thread.

I urge everyone to attend a tikanga Maori class. I could write for days in response to things I have seen on here (and in other threads ) but wont because I would become so upset at the inability for others to educate themselves before they speak.

The majority attitude here is typical and here lay the problem. I liken it so you can understand it:

Its like someone talking constantly to a professional biker about riding when they havent ever been on a bike and in reality just dont get it but think they do cause their grandfather had one.

Being brown doesn’t justify your mouth to run either.

I imagine that those who could run rings around these comments will not bother too as they have come to learn that some people just dont want to learn and are stuck on what they heard, were taught or saw.

If you want to speak about claims then take your ass to a tribunal case, go to the meetings, listen to the elders, educate yourself by participation NOT by reading what others interpretations are. Go to a lecture, sit in on college level class on Treaty claims, talk to those who dedicate their lives to defending the Treaty, be open to JUST LISTEN and ask them WHY they feel its so important
-not someone who hasn’t even heard of the three P's and then
..... maybe you might begin to speak on the topic.

If non riders gave us the same respect maybe we could make them undertand why we love to ride.

Nga Puhi descendant

Get over yourself, you are free to be offended or not, this not racist and it's only unhealthy to those who allow themselves to feel offended by what is said.

Remember the old school yard chant:

"Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me"

The only way these posts can hurt you, is if "you" let them!

Your's is the most offensive post I have read on this thread. :yes:

[trump-lady]

Get over yourself, you are free to be offended or not, this not racist and it's only unhealthy to those who allow themselves to feel offended by what is said.

Remember the old school yard chant:

"Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me"

The only way these posts can hurt you, is if "you" let them!

Your's is the most offensive post I have read on this thread. :yes:

Saddened and offended are very different words, different meanings. I never said the words racist and while I support free speach... I wish (as with my bike example which clearly you didnt understand) that people would eduucate themselves before ranting on this topic or for that matter any topic.

If you find my words the most offensive then that is your call however please do not put words that were not used and twist what I said. Try reading again to get the context instead of making assumptions or perhaps I wasnt clear enough.

Im not OFFENDED. I am saddened. I said nothing about racism. I urged people to take active personal involvment in the topic and being open to learning BEFORE thinking they are an expert.

[The Stranger]

I wish (as with my bike example which clearly you didnt understand) that people would eduucate themselves before ranting on this topic or for that matter any topic.




You must be an extreemly sad person if you get upset every time this happens as there are about 1.5 million posts on here containing uneducated ranting.

Is it co-incidence that you have apparenly only seen fit to raise this issue in this thread?

[trump-lady]

Havent been on KB for a while. Your right this kind of thing spurs a semi "tut tut" response but usually not one Im bothered to reply on. Guess I havent been on for a while, and this was the first thread Ive read on KB for a month or so so my usual awarness was heightened. Also had a death an attended a tangi couple weeks back so might be more sensitive than I thought :)