MOTOGP Laguna Seca 2009 and performance enhancing drugs (may contain spoilers)

[riffer]

Watched the Motogp tonight that we'd earlier recorded and Gini was prompted to ask me if, given the seriousness of Lorenzo's crash in practice, and his obvious injuries, and the fact that he was riding so well out there, at what stage does a painkilling injection become a performance-enhancing drug?

Discuss...

[Mikkel]

at what stage does a painkilling injection become a performance-enhancing drug?

Generally speaking - never.

Most painkillers suppress nervous feedback and will as a general rule surpress, not enhance, your reflexes and mental awareness. Some of them may even cause drowsiness.

Ask yourself if you really think a good dose of morphine is going to improve your riding - or asprin, paracetamol, etc. you name it.


Not really a discussion topic, more like medical facts - if you want a discussion how about putting it "What are your thoughts on performance enhancing drugs - AKA doping - in motorsports?".

[Blackshear]

'Do not operate heavy machinery under the influence of this cough medicine.'

I believe that should settle it.

[discotex]

Most painkillers suppress nervous feedback and will as a general rule surpress, not enhance, your reflexes and mental awareness. Some of them may even cause drowsiness.

The best you're going to get is a level of fearlessness but your motor skills would be nowhere near fast enough to take advantage of it and you'd crash on the first corner.

[Cajun]

Watched the Motogp tonight that we'd earlier recorded and Gini was prompted to ask me if, given the seriousness of Lorenzo's crash in practice, and his obvious injuries, and the fact that he was riding so well out there, at what stage does a painkilling injection become a performance-enhancing drug?

Discuss...

yeah i been wondering a bit about that as well. some of these guys are druged up to eye balls, with pain injections etc, but still able to race and controla bike at high speeds.

Or guys who able to race fast, but have to helped on/off the bikes or go to medical care once race is finshed.

[Mully]

Bollocks. I forgot about the MotoGP

[riffer]

The best you're going to get is a level of fearlessness but your motor skills would be nowhere near fast enough to take advantage of it and you'd crash on the first corner.

But this didn't happen with Lorenzo.

And Gary McCoy, Troy Bayliss and Mick Doohan have all raced on painkillers with injuries so shocking they couldn't actually walk.

Surely an injection that makes you capable of doing something you couldn't do without it has to be a performance enhancement?

[discotex]

But this didn't happen with Lorenzo.

Yep that's because they're obviously medicated purely to stop the pain.



And Gary McCoy, Troy Bayliss and Mick Doohan have all raced on painkillers with injuries so shocking they couldn't actually walk.

Surely an injection that makes you capable of doing something you couldn't do without it has to be a performance enhancement?

Hmmm when you say it that way you could make an argument that it's enhancement. But then sportspeople shouldn't be able to strap their injuries etc.

I just see it as performance restoration rather than enhancement. As long as they're not taking stimulants etc who cares.

[riffer]

I just see it as performance restoration rather than enhancement. As long as they're not taking stimulants etc who cares.

It's not that I think it's wrong - there's a whole other conversation that could be had about the effect of pushing one's body in our 20s and the inevitable damage it causes - God knows the cold and wet mornings remind me of my foolishness in my youth now.

I just wonder if they shouldn't consider that they could be putting some of these guys lives at risk.

What if Lorenzo's collarbone had have completely let go at 300+ km/hr? Surely the pain is there to set a limit on human achievement and by eliminating it we run the risk of some of these guys actually killing themselves? Can you imagine the repercussions if there was a death and the rider was shown to be so painkilled he couldn't actually feel how injured he really was?

[BarBender]

Generally speaking - never.
Most painkillers suppress nervous feedback and will as a general rule surpress, not enhance, your reflexes and mental awareness. Some of them may even cause drowsiness.
Ask yourself if you really think a good dose of morphine is going to improve your riding - or asprin, paracetamol, etc. you name it.
Not really a discussion topic, more like medical facts - if you want a discussion how about putting it "What are your thoughts on performance enhancing drugs - AKA doping - in motorsports?".

Steroids dont have the patent on 'enhancing performance.'

Its amazing what the right amount and cocktail of 'painkillers' can do if administered to give the desired effect epecially if their performance was crap had they not taken anything.

And sometimes it isnt about the physical enhancement. What separates the elite from the also rans is the space between their ears. Sometimes the drug provides that little bit of confidence and relaxation they need to clear their head and focus.

[R6_kid]

'Do not operate heavy machinery under the influence of this cough medicine.'

I believe that should settle it.

What if your bike weighs less than 160kg?

[Badjelly]

It's an interesting issue.

One of the functions of steroids that athletes find useful is to speed recovery after injury. That's performance-restoration, but steroids are banned nonetheless.

Does anyone know: what are the painkillers used by the MotoGP boys and are they banned for athletics?

[R6_kid]

Its amazing what the right amount and cocktail of 'painkillers' can do if administered to give the desired effect epecially if their performance was crap had they not taken anything.

And sometimes it isnt about the physical enhancement. What separates the elite from the also rans is the space between their ears. Sometimes the drug provides that little bit of confidence and relaxation they need to clear their head and focus.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but does adrenalin not have a 'pain suppressing' effect to some extent?

I've had injuries when I was a rower, but for some reason in the heat of a race when you are dead set on one thing - finishing first - it gets pushed to the back of your head. That's more psychological than the effect of adrenalin... however it's kind of like when you have a crash, you don't 'feel it' until the adrenalin from the incident wears off, it's also a 'flight or fight' reflex to help you get out of shit creek so you don't die.

I'm sure that once these guys are at wide open throttle on a crotch rocket banging out 200+ horses that not only will there be a substantial amount of adrenalin in their blood, but the sense of pain is probably suppressed to some extent by the intense level of sensory input they are getting from their eyes, and ears (balance/acceleration etc).

[BarBender]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but does adrenalin not have a 'pain suppressing' effect to some extent?

It does and can also increase strength and make you faster, but the effects are largely short term and depend on the person. 30+ laps around Laguna Seca would be pushing it. There's also the managing of emotional reactions that come with adrenaline release.

[slydesigns]

This happened in the AMA SuperX series back in the McGrath/Emig 2 Stroke era. Can't remember the riders name but he was top 10 in the 250's. Anyways, he had a big bail and got knocked out. The next week he was back on the track racing, hit a big triple and fell unconsious mid jump.
He just floated off the bike over a 75footer and him and the bike collected two other riders, one in the air and the other on landing. Big carnage to the hit riders and bikes, no major injuries to the KO'd rider as he just flopped and ragdolled. The team owners were furious and demanded regulations be set.

This incident raised the question of painkillers, extent of injuries and concussion standdown requirements as they we putting other riders at risk. He was drugged up to supress his migraine, which was actually the indicator that he still had bruising on the brain. The sudden change in direction from forward to upward (the jump ramp of a triple is aggressively steep) caused his brain to contact his skull at the point of bruising and knock him out again.

The reason I remember it is I had 10 KO's in a season of SuperX and not much was said at the time. Then that happened and the rules became stricter with good reason.

Lorenzo could have displaced a bone or joint and suddenly found he could no longer move that body part, or ruptured something internally and quietly passed out at 200kph plus... and he wouldn't really know thanks to the miracle of pain suppressors and nerve blockers. Could have been messy as hell.

I've raced SX and MX with 2 snapped thumbs on one occasion (thought I had dislocated them so we popped them back into place and just numbed them for the 3 races at Taupo), a 2 week old shattered collarbone and broken wrist (modified the hand part of the cast to allow throttle operation, QE2 park Kapiti) on another and punctured lungs (just the one but on 7 occasions) and a partially torn ankle ligament (over jumping and flat landing at Tokoroa!) after self and assisted medication to cut the pain.

I was reckless

There should be a limit.

[JayRacer37]

The best you're going to get is a level of fearlessness but your motor skills would be nowhere near fast enough to take advantage of it and you'd crash on the first corner.

Perhaps not the first corner...

But a good case in point was Hopkins in (I think) 2005 on the Suzuki at Sachsenring - He had a painkilling injection in his broken right foot and couldn't feel that he was standing on the brake lever mid corner which caused him to have a fantasmically high highside! And then, due the the NEW breaks in his foot, he couldn't get his ass off the track so they had to red flag it...

[discotex]

Can you imagine the repercussions if there was a death and the rider was shown to be so painkilled he couldn't actually feel how injured he really was?


Perhaps not the first corner...

But a good case in point was Hopkins in (I think) 2005 on the Suzuki at Sachsenring - He had a painkilling injection in his broken right foot and couldn't feel that he was standing on the brake lever mid corner which caused him to have a fantasmically high highside! And then, due the the NEW breaks in his foot, he couldn't get his ass off the track so they had to red flag it...

Yep you guys raise some good points.

There is definitely a point where you have to say the risk of permanant damage or further injury is likely.

The hard part is defining that point huh?

I'd like to think/hope the tour Dr. (can never remember his name) is a fairly good judge of how far to take it and obviously he's sticking well withing the anti-doping rules.

[JayRacer37]

Yep you guys raise some good points.

There is definitely a point where you have to say the risk of permanant damage or further injury is likely.

The hard part is defining that point huh?

I'd like to think/hope the tour Dr. (can never remember his name) is a fairly good judge of how far to take it and obviously he's sticking well withing the anti-doping rules.

Dr. Costa.

I think he does a fantastic job - if the riders want to ride he helps him the best he can under the rules. If they shouldn't ride he tells them so, and if they still want to he will help them.

[Hoon]

Surely an injection that makes you capable of doing something you couldn't do without it has to be a performance enhancement?

Anyone can still achieve the same performance without painkillers....it just hurts a lot more.