Race Events and Track Days (bit of a rant)

[TwoSeven]

Ok, this has been annoying me on and off for a few years now, so I thought I'd put the subject up for discussion and see what others think.

Over the last couple of decades I've been tooling around in this country attending track days and race events I've noticed the rather amateur and perhaps suicidal approach some people here seem to have to safety both their own, and that of others. It was pointed out to me some time ago that its due to the #8 fencing wire mentality - get a cheap and nasty solution to a problem and ignore everything else - either that or the 'she'll be right' quote can be heard to be said.

By safety I mean the 'prevention of accidents' rather than clearing up the mess after they happen (and this applies to organized as well as informal events). I think perhaps that it really is the time for clubs to start making a collective effort to start improving on this before someone gets killed and the old legal battles start again (as has already happened after a certain pushbike event).

Over the last year or so I've noticed that the problem seems to have gotten worse (when the sbk was here, rules and regs seemed to be very tight, even at local clubs, but it seems to have gotten lax). I've seen riders who have just got bike licenses out doing club days, race starts and proper racing with only a few months’ road experience, let alone track training. No orange bib, nothing. I've seen track marshals that don't have the faintest about what to do in different situations, some even have to wait for someone more senior to tell them what to do - even when there is an injured rider lying in front of them.

The other day I was out at a track and examined a bike, there was a puddle of pet-roil on the back of the engine that had leaked out of the carb (which was running no filter, or catch tank). Not enough to cause any real problem, but enough to show the owner wasn’t really paying too much in the care and consideration to others dept (and I've seen bikes go out pissin petrol with no catch tanks). It seems that once scrutinering has been passed, the bike is never again checked, so could be a disaster waiting to happen later in the day, but 'she'll be right' is often the response given (once I was told by a chap how he managed to fool the scrutineers into getting his bike ok’d – been doing it for years and never harmed anyone).

Recent events in other threads (and some observations) at track days show that people (novices) are being injured, the most common form seems to be those overcooking a corner (a very very basic racing mistake) or dumping it thru cold tires. I don’t think I’ve ever been at a track day and heard at the briefing, what the correct passing rules are (who has the line etc).

Ok, that’s the rant, but what can be done about the situation to improve it.

Well, when I was overseas, one idea was that people should have little passbooks that they register each ride/event in. When they turn up at each event, they have to show the passbook, if they can’t, then they get treated as a novice (even if they are the countries leading racer – soon stops em from forgetting the book).

I have one I have to show when I go skydiving, and Honda used to issue one to their mechanics to show what machines they are trained for, also the ACU used to use one as well (you had to show it when you registered). If you don’t have one you could buy one at the club for a fiver or something. Clubs could keep a copy (members records) or could hold on to the riders/marshals one til the end of the day (to stop em being lost and make sure they are checked). They are good to have for track day enthusiasts as well, its like getting a certificate at the end of the event and something you can banter over at the pub.

Basically, if you marshal at the track, your passbook gets signed by a senior marshal to say what you did. If you attend track marshalling training, it gets signed. That way, people can 'see' your level of experience. Kind of like first aid training, you have to do refreshers every year. I'd like to see clubs do regular marshal training days - and - I’d also like to see the riders turn up to em (no point if waving a flag at someone if they just smile and wave back). Even novice marshals feel good when they get their book signed (bit of a sigh of relieve you made it thru the day).

Orange bibs - should be compulsory for learners - i.e. Those with out signed log books proving they aint learners. In the UK it used to be a year as a novice (with a minimum number of races) then you could be put in C class events, then B class and eventually you might even qualify for international events. They checked when you registered. Not sure what they do now but it’s an idea. At least we would be able to see the mobile chicanes without waking up 10 mins later wondering what happened.

At the end of each race, or event, the riders log book gets signed to show what they did (even for partial days).

Scrutinering, I think there should be random checks throughout the day. Bikes that are seen to be failing should be blocked from racing until they can pass another proper check. It would also be good to see people check basic bits when the bikes are lined up waiting to go out. To be honest I’d also like to see riders checking each others bikes – I know with the friendly attitude in the paddock, if someone is missing a catch tank, there will be others who dig around in their bits box and come up with a solution – racings good like that. But looking out for fellow riders should be a mental attitude and normal way of life, rather than an afterthought because a senior club member said so.

Track days. Log books would be good here. It would make it easier to see who is a first time attendee and who is a regular. And would stop the 'I have a big bike and should be in group A' syndrome that I see often (group A is ex racers or experienced track day people). It would also limit those who start in class C and end up in A because they think they know it all (rather than having written proof). There is absolutely no difference between a track day and a club race to be honest and I think they should at least try to be treated the same. At track days I would like to see a riders briefing, and a riders training session (for novices and for those who forget their log books). Things like making sure you don’t go fast on cold tires, overcooking corners and last session exuberance should be continually harped on about.

I think the people that actually run these events will probably have an idea what I'm talking about, and they have probably seen the odd accident that when you really think about the cause could probably have been prevented or minimized.

Anyway, that’s my rant and some suggestions. And I must point out that I've been to a few events where things have been great with a lot of effort put in to safety and the like. I know how hard it is to organize events as it is, and a lot of it does come down to the attitude of the people that attend, but if the safety mentality is fostered, then the safety attitude tends to follow.

Be interesting to see what other people can come up with or what views others have.

[Kickaha]

I see little point in you coming on here and having a bleat about if you haven't raised your concerns with the club/clubs/officials involved

Scruntineering to a large extent relies on the honesty of the rider concerned in making sure his bike is up to scratch and not trying to "fool" the scrutineers into passing it by bodging something up

Some clubs don't even do it as they believe they then place themselves in the firing line if something fails on the bike that they haven't picked up,instead at sign in you sign your name to a peice of paper which states your bike and gear meets all the relevant rules and regulation,in the event of a crash the bike has to be checked over again or it will not be allowed back out

I think the orange bib for novices is a good idea and had been used at several club days with the younger guys on 150 streetstock,however I have yet to see a situation where a new rider has caused an accident as they tend to ride conservatively for their first few meetings anyway and it is the more experienced riders who generally crash as they're pushing harder

Marshals will always be a difficult one as we always struggle to attract sufficent marshals for each event as they are all unpaid volunteers and at times when not racing I have filled in quite often by myself which means in the event of an accident I cannnot leave the post and we are instructed not to unless more than one marshal is present,training for marshals? great idea getting unpaid volunteers to attend training may be more difficult though

When you consider that all riders are given a look over on the dummy grid(at Ruapuna anyway) I fail to see how a bike that is "pissing petrol out without a catch tank" could make it onto the track at a proper club day,if an offical didn't see it another rider would,and despite what you may think bikes sometimes are rechecked "IF" it is bought to the organisers attention that something could be wrong with a particular machine

Novice riders in the past have always been given a seperate breifing after the main one to cover issues such as passing and to be shown the flags that can be displayed and what action to take if they are,if any rider does not attend the riders briefing they may be penalised by the stewards or in some cases stopped from riding at the event,I havent ever seen it happen though and if it was enforced Andrew Stroud would be given the arse from a few of them

Every Licenced rider has to present their log book and get it stamped and signed at each event,in the event of a crash requiring medical attention you don't get it back until you have a doctors clearance and in the event of a rider,passenger or member of their crew doing something particulary stupid the stewards have a range of options available to them regarding penalties they can apply

Everything is already in place to adress the issues you describe however it is up to the individual clubs to enforce them and having travelled and raced around the whle contry I don't think it is quite as bad as you make out

[FROSTY]

I agree with kickaha.-at amcc or pacific club if ya crash you have to be rescrutineered.
Kick covered off the marshalls thing pretty well--its bloody hard to get enough to wave the flags let alone enough trained people.
As for track days -Well lets just say that the one I'm organising and also the Track time bike only days are run just like a race meeting.

[ajturbo]

when i used to race in the south island (buckets) every time i fell off i had to have the bike RE CHECKED!!!


this happend alot (falling off) and the marshalls got to know what/where to look for on my bike:whistle: :shake: :lol:

andy

[Coyote]

It seemed like I did get my Race licence a bit too easily. There was no basic handling skills test or anything like it, it was just paperwork I had to fill out

Anything I have to think about for next month? I'm hopefully entering the streetstock at manfeild. Do I have to join the VIC club now?

[TwoSeven]

I see little point in you coming on here and having a bleat about if you haven't raised your concerns with the club/clubs/officials involved


I have and usually do, generally I just have a quiet word with the people concerned to find out what the story is and if they intend do do anything about it. Sometimes, i'm met with some kind of excuse, sometimes people actually make an effort and do something, depends on how serious things are.



Scruntineering to a large extent relies on the honesty of the rider concerned in making sure his bike is up to scratch and not trying to "fool" the scrutineers into passing it by bodging something up

I agree, the problem is that while most people are honest, quite are few seem to be conveniently ignorant (meant in a polite way).



Some clubs don't even do it as they believe they then place themselves in the firing line if something fails on the bike that they haven't picked up,instead at sign in you sign your name to a peice of paper which states your bike and gear meets all the relevant rules and regulation,in the event of a crash the bike has to be checked over again or it will not be allowed back out

Sometimes I think its a case of the old push it under the rug and hope no-one blames us approach. I've seen it plenty of times. "Its not our fault we organised an event with no safety and you got injured - you signed this bit of paper that meant we dont have to take any precautions". Its that attitude I'm not keen on.

I think the disclaimer is good (at any event), because you are asking the person to state that they are aware they are taking part in an at risk sport and they have made some sort of effort to ensure their equipment is in good order.

But I still think that getting an experienced person who has an awarness of what parts of bikes can cause grief to check the bikes is a good idea. You cant really rely on people checking their own machines - sometimes enthusiasm can get in the way of people making sound decisions :)



I think the orange bib for novices is a good idea and had been used at several club days with the younger guys on 150 streetstock,however I have yet to see a situation where a new rider has caused an accident as they tend to ride conservatively for their first few meetings anyway and it is the more experienced riders who generally crash as they're pushing harder

I've seen two in the last 12 months, both rear end shunts and its not uncommon to listen to after race banter to hear about the near misses caused by an unexpected brake application or people misjudging slow riders.

I've also seen the orange bib used a few times which I think is good. I know people hate wearing them, I always did. But I so very rarely ride on the track now, that I probably would if offered. I would say tho, that if everyone out there at a particular time are novices, then no point, its just for day licences, social class or other mixed outings.



Marshals will always be a difficult one as we always struggle to attract sufficent marshals for each event as they are all unpaid volunteers and at times when not racing I have filled in quite often by myself which means in the event of an accident I cannnot leave the post and we are instructed not to unless more than one marshal is present,training for marshals? great idea getting unpaid volunteers to attend training may be more difficult though

I agree, its not really the most riviting past time. I've been known to grab a flag if someone needs me to, and/or make people give flag briefings to riders. Perhaps clubs should include a donation fund at each meeting or something that can be given to those that do marshalling (just an idea) - even if its extra beer rations. I actually make a very bad mashal because I worry about each rider as they come past, so at the end of the day I end up really stressed.



When you consider that all riders are given a look over on the dummy grid(at Ruapuna anyway) I fail to see how a bike that is "pissing petrol out without a catch tank" could make it onto the track at a proper club day,if an offical didn't see it another rider would,and despite what you may think bikes sometimes are rechecked "IF" it is bought to the organisers attention that something could be wrong with a particular machine

This 'checking' seems to be a random thing. Last club day, all that was happening was someone patting the riders on the back to see if they wore back protectors - I watched for 3 sessions to see if they looked at the bike. I saw two bikes that were border line that day, and one person said they patched up their bike to get it past scrutineering. At another event their late last year I heard one person who was involved in checking the bikes, say to another person who was worried about their machine, that so long as it wasnt leaking, it would pass and not to worry. Having said that I've seen many events where everything has been checked in double detail to a really high degree.

One thing I saw overseas I thought was good. Bikes were given a green sticker in the morning and during the day someone would do the rounds of all the bikes. If one was spotted to be out of order, it would have an orange sticker placed over the top - so the rider couldnt use it until it was green stickered. Obviously you wont do this if there is only 20 people at a club event, but its an idea at formal track days.



Novice riders in the past have always been given a seperate breifing after the main one to cover issues such as passing and to be shown the flags that can be displayed and what action to take if they are,if any rider does not attend the riders briefing they may be penalised by the stewards or in some cases stopped from riding at the event,I havent ever seen it happen though and if it was enforced Andrew Stroud would be given the arse from a few of them

The best one I've seen is when someone waved a checkered flag and said, stop when I wave this, and go when I wave this, raising a green flag. I've also seen the kind of briefing you are talking about, and as I said in my earlier post, it used to be enforced quite a bit. I still go to flag briefings if they are done - just in case oneday they change the color of the flags - when NZ becomes a republic :)



Every Licenced rider has to present their log book and get it stamped and signed at each event,in the event of a crash requiring medical attention you don't get it back until you have a doctors clearance and in the event of a rider,passenger or member of their crew doing something particulary stupid the stewards have a range of options available to them regarding penalties they can apply

What about the unlicenced riders at all the other events ?. Also, I've stood on the wall at ruapuna and watched people do wheelies behind other (slower riders). In fact at that particilar one, several people complained - I cant remember if a black flag was waved or the chap came in. Having said that, i've seen it done and the rider has made sure the track is clear and is just having fun so I am aware there is discression involved.



Everything is already in place to adress the issues you describe however it is up to the individual clubs to enforce them and having travelled and raced around the whle contry I don't think it is quite as bad as you make out
I am aware of this, but what I am saying is that I'm noticing that over the last 12 months or so, it doesnt appear to be happening as much as it used to. So perhaps its time for a heads up - which is what this post is really about - if people are thinking about things, then they aint forgetting about them :)

I'm not saying everyone should jump up and do a better job or anything like that, just highlighting to folks that when you duck and dive the rules, or believe that everthing is tickety boo, one day, it might not be. And the examples I've cited are really just for those folks who would swear it doesnt happen. And, i'd like to go down there [to the track] and see people talking prevention rather than how to avoid things as I think it makes for an even better community spirit than the great one that already exists.

Even if the result of this is for one person to decide to fix that bit of chewing gum holding the bike together, i'd be happy. At least I wont have to read the post about that person crashing. :)

[saiko]

I support novice bibs. Didn't actually realise new racers had a race book. Must join up AMCC & find out how it all works.

[Bartman10]

This is typical do-gooder safety-crat ramblings. If you’re serious you would get yourself elected to the MNZ board and actually do something about it, not just complain to the people that you have a problem with. We live in a democratic society and that model has been applied to sporting clubs and organisations throughout the country. If you want to change something you should rally support in your ‘electorate’, get a mandate and re-write the rule book.

Another typical safey-crat do-gooder trait is that things always get worse with time, when that’s probably not the case at all. Rules, laws and equipment are normally upgraded for safety every year – never downgraded. It’s just when you used to do all those dodgy things on your leaky British thumper with shite brakes you had a ‘she’ll be right attitude’ and didn’t think it was dangerous (unless, of course, you never got out of your cotton wool bassinet in which case I’m wasting my time). Now that you’ve got money, experience and age you want to see the clamps put on the young starters with little or no guidance and who only have a small idea of the consequences when something goes badly wrong.

Motorcycling New Zealand is probably one of the most serious sporting bodies in the country and as far as I can tell are very clear on the rules and safety regulations. You need to accept that motorcycling is fundamentally dangerous.

Other sports that I’ve been involved with aren’t nearly as particular. Take cycling for instance; there is no scrutineering in that sport at all, but if someone’s bike fall apart at 60+ kph in a bunch it can be very serious, not only to the rider in question but also to also to the other competitors in the bunch, and the only protective clothing they are wearing are thing licra shorts, a tee shirt and a light weight helmet.

Motorcycling New Zealand also makes it very clear that it is the riders’ responsibility to make sure that their machines are in safe condition and fit for use. There are proper protest procedures for all competitors who are not happy with the condition of anyone’s bike or their riding style.

In regards to track days: they are basically an excuse to hammer the snot out of your $17,000 motorcycle and are completely different to organised race events. Of course there is a huge element of danger, but it’s the only way people can stretch the legs of their 140 HP machines every now and then. What do you think is safer? Nailing it on the track in less than ideal conditions, or nailing it on the road where diesel, gravel, pedestrians, on-coming cars and turning trucks are an ever-present danger.

Organised race events are for serious people that want to throw some money and time at serious motorcycling, but track days are for the hoon in us. That’s why they’re so popular.

But my real point is this: if you want to improve the situation then get elected as club president and control what goes on at your club meets, become a chief marshal or scrutineer, or become directly involved with MNZ and get elected to the board where you will be able to make a real difference and re-write the rules to suit you, all of which is fine by me - provided you have a mandate from the members of your organisation.

[White trash]

So there! :cool:

[TwoSeven]

This is typical do-gooder safety-crat ramblings. If you’re serious you would get yourself elected to the MNZ board and actually do something about it, not just complain to the people that you have a problem with. We live in a democratic society and that model has been applied to sporting clubs and organisations throughout the country. If you want to change something you should rally support in your ‘electorate’, get a mandate and re-write the rule book.


I dont like what labor do with running the country, should I therefore become prime minister of new zealand so I can suggest changes. I'm sure there is some logic in there somewhere.



Another typical safey-crat do-gooder trait is that things always get worse with time, when that’s probably not the case at all. Rules, laws and equipment are normally upgraded for safety every year – never downgraded.


And people will use that safety gear because..... ???? (note i've pointed out already that they dont in many circumstances)

The reason things get worse with time is because the technology and performance is constantly increasing. You should be changing and improving the safety standards to match.



Now that you’ve got money, experience and age you want to see the clamps put on the young starters with little or no guidance and who only have a small idea of the consequences when something goes badly wrong.


No - I just dont like having to explain dead and maimed people to their relatives.




Other sports that I’ve been involved with aren’t nearly as particular.

Base jumping is also more dangerous than motorcycle racing. Perhaps we should all have parachutes instead of saftey equipment and scrutineers.



Motorcycling New Zealand also makes it very clear that it is the riders’ responsibility to make sure that their machines are in safe condition and fit for use.

Ahh the old 'dont sue us, we had a disclaimer' rule.

Whos responsibility is it to define and enforce the level of 'fit for use' that you claim exists. I suspect if it was the rider, it would be a low standard.




In regards to track days: they are basically an excuse to hammer the snot out of your $17,000 motorcycle and are completely different to organised race events. Of course there is a huge element of danger

So its ok to kill your self at track days, but not on official MNZ events.

And I didnt know that everyone at track days has 17k motorcycles.

I think perhaps you may want to spend some time with an ambulance crew for a few weekends so that you understand how important a persons life actually is.

Also realise that overseas for example there are BSI, ACU, FIM, CE and other such standards that govern track days and race events. We dont follow them here. Perhaps we should. :)

[gav]

when i used to race in the south island (buckets) every time i fell off i had to have the bike RE CHECKED!!!


this happend alot (falling off) and the marshalls got to know what/where to look for on my bike:whistle: :shake: :lol:

andy
Things like your carby, aye Andy :killingme

[Kwaka-Kid]

i agree with Kickaha...

but further... with mrashalls not knowing what to do etc... its so true that we JUST CANT GET enough of them.. then when u think about it.. if u say well there shouldnt be race meetings untill there are "enough" trained up or summit... well it could take a long time, bywhich everybody will have agreed to race anyway with less... as a Racer, i know the risks, i know many marshalls may not know how to save my life should i break my neck, or even how to pick my bike up... i know that at least half the field are like me, and do cut some corners, and work around things and say "shell be right". And im sure all other racers know too, once your in the game, you quickly see how the game works... And then its your decision to race...

Yes it could be safer and blah blah... and thats nice, id love for you to make it even safer for me. id really appreciate it infact, however i dont have much time on my hands to help myself, and obviously am happy enough racing with everything as it stands today, as is every single other person who attended the last meeting... its obviously the minimum.. but id rather race then not at all... and there are always going to be risks obviously, its part of what makes the sport so damn adreneline pumping for me.

Sorry if i sound a bit nasty, i dont mean to be, nor do i mean to anti any good/saftey that is brought to racing, but i guess i just dont want to not be able to race at all... along with the other 2/3'rds of F3...

If you like you can go play table tennis... its a pretty safe sport.

[RiderInBlack]

Sorry don't have time to read all that is here now,, but feel I should say something from the prospective of one that has done the odd Marshaling.

Some of the reasons I have not Marshaled this year are:

Lack of notification for the need of marshals (I used to get posted or rung).
Lack of notification for any marshals training days (if they ever run one:confused: ).
Lack of proper breifing of those who are marshals on day. The worsed one was at a Taupo Club Day. I was glad to see there was enough wanting to marshal, and deside that I would no like to take to risk based of the lack of organisation. The best was done by AMCC for the TT (so it should be).

Bad placement of marshels. The most unsafe place I have been told to stand is on the outside of the exit from the hill corn @ Puke (I should have refused).
So if your wondering why people are no kean to marshal, how about the clubs get more active in encouraging, training and support them, OK:niceone:

[Brian d marge]

That has to go ... Having an on off relationship with NZ for the last 25 years ...I will say that the racing scene in the last 5 or so years has improved dramatically , was at waganui this year and the level of professionalism was high ,,, But I have experienced the she'll be right , OR I ve been a mechanic for XXX years and never had a problem when...
I ll be glad when I never hear those words again !!!!
i did see a bike stop with a so called electrical fault only to hear the rider say that it was an tilt cut out sensor....on a race bike at that level , they are fitted to road bikes ....whats it still doing on a race bike ... and the guy LOST the race ...
I currently live in Japan now and unless you have been here its hard to explain but most people REALLY have a hard time with ,,, ish or round about ... try being 2 min late and see what happens ...My wife who is used to it.... has a cow ..you should ring blahh
Well when things are organised here ( and other countrys I have lived in .. except greece but thats greece ,,,,) Everything is thought of and you must do exactly what is said or needs to be done or you simply cant do it ...its a hard mindset to understand if you havent experienced it ...the train will stop at the SAME spot EVERY time with in an inch every train every time every day....
There is not an...ish when I work on my race bike, ( I will however make a guess based on info and Engineering knowledge , ie I will add a safety factor to the size of the part , decision)
So to get to the point....as its starting to ramble ,,,, While the level of proffessionalism has amazed me how high it has become , there still is an element of amature ( ish) ..which need to be improved upon ...
Wanganui was good with the prize money , and a few teams with a highly proff approach you still dont race a triumph 650 side car in the same race as a 1300 jap ,,,( though they were worth the enry fee to watch great showman and a lot of fun to watch ) That not racing its boys playing with toys ...
I would like to see more professional teams not just bike shops with a few goodies bolted on
I noticed there were a one or two ,,anyway,,,, Keep going,,, its on the right path ,,,
Oｋ
Sorry if the above seems abit contracending , its not meant to be just my observations
As for the first post I agree with the general thrust of what he was saying ,,, and,,, now it wasnt an attack on NZ OR kiwis ...he put the thought up for general discussion .....
And yes The post on marshalling is dead on ... yes it a horrible job and Always tough to find ANYONE let alone trained ones ,,,but the passport Idea isnt such a bad one ,,,I still have my Honda technician passport ,,, Any one still ride VFRS as I have a sticker saying I attended power rds training course ( though I was asleep at the time )
As for racing in NZ I am very keen on this race for the sky I have read about ,,,so may bring the bike over for a bit of a play !!!!

all the best Stephen :ar15: :innocent: :thud:

[geoffm]

Sorry don't have time to read all that is here now,, but feel I should say something from the prospective of one that has done the odd Marshaling.

Some of the reasons I have not Marshaled this year are:

Lack of notification for the need of marshals (I used to get posted or rung).
Lack of notification for any marshals training days (if they ever run one:confused: ).
Lack of proper breifing of those who are marshals on day. The worsed one was at a Taupo Club Day. I was glad to see there was enough wanting to marshal, and deside that I would no like to take to risk based of the lack of organisation. The best was done by AMCC for the TT (so it should be).

Bad placement of marshels. The most unsafe place I have been told to stand is on the outside of the exit from the hill corn @ Puke (I should have refused).
So if your wondering why people are no kean to marshal, how about the clubs get more active in encouraging, training and support them, OK:niceone:

My missus runs the marshalls for AMCC, so if you have ideas or want to volunteer, let me know. Are you on the marshalls list - you should get a call if you are.

Marshalling is a crap job (especially in the rain) but the meetings can't run without them. AMCC gives out petrol vouchers to their marshalls.
We never have enough - some meetings have nearly been canned in the past because of insufficent marshalls, and others have run with the hope that no one falls off in a big way.

Geoff

[TwoSeven]

Maybe someome could post a marshalling FAQ. Basic stuff, and some what to do in scenario x stuff.

[RiderInBlack]

My missus runs the marshalls for AMCC, so if you have ideas or want to volunteer, let me know. Are you on the marshalls list - you should get a call if you are. GeoffI was last year, even got a Newsletter sent and an intvite for a dinner (which I went to), but have not heard a bean out of AMCC this year. By the way AMCC have been the best I have dealt with as far as marshall beifing so far.