Mass medication - our daily bread

[Mom]

Seems we are about to be (whether we are pregnant of not) medicated to avoid neural tube defects by way of drugs being put in our bread. Seems we can not avoid it unless we are buy organic or unleavend bread. We cant even bake our own as this drug is being added to our flour, though we can of course buy organic flour (ca-ching).

Recent data shows there is an increased risk of developing cancer, particularly prostate cancer from this drug. Even though the government are not completely happy, becasue of a trade agreement with Australia, this will happen, and will not be reviewed until after it has been introduced.

Now, while I am ancient, it was not that long ago that when you got pregnant you were prescribed a folic acid pill, to be taken daily to help prevent neural tube defects (spina bifida etc) in our babies. It was matter of course, just like extra iron tablets, and it was free! These days it seems you have to pay for a very expensive (almost $1 a day) pill over the counter, and we get to eat it in our bread regardless! Women will have to eat 11 slices of bread (tui anyone) to get the recommended dose of folic acid.

I am completely opposed to the government dictating my drug regime, last time I checked I was past the getting pregnant stage anyway. My children dont need it at the moment, and my husband surely does not need to worry excessively about his prostate!

I say NO to this enforced medication of the populace, and a big yes to giving pregnant, and about to be, trying to be pregnant and breast feeding Mothers this suppliment for free!

How say you guys?

[Elysium]

Doesn't bother me. I mean ask yourself, do you really know what is in most of todays food? I can't understand half the ingredents listed on manufactured food. Its hard to escape this sort of stuff in todays world.

[BMWST?]

Seems we are about to be (whether we are pregnant of not) medicated to avoid neural tube defects by way of drugs being put in our bread. Seems we can not avoid it unless we are buy organic or unleavend bread. We cant even bake our own as this drug is being added to our flour, though we can of course buy organic flour (ca-ching).

Recent data shows there is an increased risk of developing cancer, particularly prostate cancer from this drug. Even though the government are not completely happy, becasue of a trade agreement with Australia, this will happen, and will not be reviewed until after it has been introduced.

Now, while I am ancient, it was not that long ago that when you got pregnant you were prescribed a folic acid pill, to be taken daily to help prevent neural tube defects (spina bifida etc) in our babies. It was matter of course, just like extra iron tablets, and it was free! These days it seems you have to pay for a very expensive (almost $1 a day) pill over the counter, and we get to eat it in our bread regardless! Women will have to eat 11 slices of bread (tui anyone) to get the recommended dose of folic acid.

I am completely opposed to the government dictating my drug regime, last time I checked I was past the getting pregnant stage anyway. My children dont need it at the moment, and my husband surely does not need to worry excessively about his prostate!

I say NO to this enforced medication of the populace, and a big yes to giving pregnant, and about to be, trying to be pregnant and breast feeding Mothers this suppliment for free!

How say you guys?

seems pointless if you need half a loaf of bread to get the required dose if you actually need it and three quarters o fthe population DONT need it.Flouride in toopaste...maybe

[Usarka]

There are also studies suggesting that it might be carcinogenic for younger people, which is why the move got shelved in the UK and other countries.....



I mean ask yourself, do you really know what is in most of todays food? I can't understand half the ingredents listed on manufactured food. Its hard to escape this sort of stuff in todays world.

The stuff that I eat = yes.


Anyways, pregnant chicks don't eat 11 slices of bread, they eat timtams with peanut butter, or meat pies with gherkins.......

[Mom]

Doesn't bother me. I mean ask yourself, do you really know what is in most of todays food? I can't understand half the ingredents listed on manufactured food. Its hard to escape this sort of stuff in todays world.

I say Bull shit! Educate yourself. I will not buy fortified anything. Eat a healthy, balanced diet and to hell with the health police that insist, nay, legislate and force upon us drugs that most of us dont need.

Vitamin enriched be buggered, give me good old fashioned healty food thanks.

[Usarka]

There's a number of organic fruit and vegetable places now that give you a weeks fruit & veg for $20ish delivered to your door!! Too hard you say?

The money I save not impulse buying toffee pops makes up for whatever miniscule extra I may or may not pay. And with all the tasty goodness in those vegies you can have an extra beer guilt-free!

[Mom]

There are also studies suggesting that it might be carcinogenic for younger people, which is why the move got shelved in the UK and other countries.....
The stuff that I eat = yes.
Anyways, pregnant chicks don't eat 11 slices of bread, they eat timtams with peanut butter, or meat pies with gherkins.......

And lots of icecream, I recall Fru Jus (how do you spell that anyway?) being a particular MUST HAVE RIGHT FRIGGEN NOW food in my diet once upon a time.

I pity any Mother right now, I would no more feed my kids folic acid than I would fly to the moon. Luckily I will most likely be dead when the effects are seen in my great grandchildren, hopefully my grandchildren will be safe. Keep the drugs out of my diet!

[nodrog]

sweet, im jobless again, so i will take all the free drugs i can get.

[Pussy]

The gloves will be off if they try to put that stuff in pies too, Mom.....

[Mom]

Doesn't bother me. I mean ask yourself, do you really know what is in most of todays food? I can't understand half the ingredents listed on manufactured food. Its hard to escape this sort of stuff in todays world.

Actually, sorry I will have to quote you again. Yes, I do actually know what is in the food I eat. I recently have had to start taking medication to control high blood pressure, seems you can't avoid a family gene after all. Anyway, needless to say I have come under the microscope of the medicos.

I have never watched my diet, I detest low fat food, in fact I will not buy it! I eat what I want, when I want! Butter is simply the best thing to fry something in, if you are frying something. I also cook! I mean cook. You know, really cook, from scratch cooking. No (or almost none) pre-prepared anything. If is high fat, I will buy it! I am not fat, neither are any of my kids.

I had my cholesterol checked. You think I should be worried? Nope, not a jot. Apaprently, even though I dont give a shit about the fat content of my diet I am only just marginally over normal. Even my doctor says I dont have to worry.

Food police can piss off as far as I am concerned. :sunny:

Shit, I seem to have blown another gasket :o

[Elysium]

Look back at generations past and compare to todays. Too many people aint able to look after themselves. Obese childen is starting to become a comman sight these days. Work habbits have changed so that means a lot of people are too tired to make tea when they get home so they buy takeaways instead.....and the reasons just go on.

I honestly believe stuff like this will happen more often in the future.

[YellowDog]

I heard that Folic Acid in bread can neutralise the effect of Chemotherapy.

And it also gives you man boobs.
(I made one of those two up)

[Ixion]

Look back at generations past and compare to todays. Too many people aint able to look after themselves. Obese childen is starting to become a comman sight these days. Work habbits have changed so that means a lot of people are too tired to make tea when they get home so they buy takeaways instead.....and the reasons just go on.

I honestly believe stuff like this will happen more often in the future.

Well, if they're buying takeaways, they ain't gonna be getting dosed on bread are they?

BTW , in NZ it's only going in bread. Oz put it in flour.

What is extra irksome , is that not only are we getting medicated by order, but it's Australia giving the orders. Oz says "medicate" our gubbermint says "yes Sir". Just cos Ausssies are too stupid to take a pill why should we be foribly medicated.

[Dave Lobster]

Just cos Ausssies are too stupid to take a pill why should we be foribly medicated.

Because there's a lot of stupid people here that might 'accidently' get pregnant and not think (ha) to take folic acid.

Check out the fat thread. We have a LOT of stupid people in NZ.

AND... the politicians say they can't say no. Rubbish. Of course they can. It's easy...

[Mom]

Well, if they're buying takeaways, they ain't gonna be getting dosed on bread are they?

BTW , in NZ it's only going in bread. Oz put it in flour.

What is extra irksome , is that not only are we getting medicated by order, but it's Australia giving the orders. Oz says "medicate" our gubbermint says "yes Sir". Just cos Ausssies are too stupid to take a pill why should we be foribly medicated.


I thought we were getting it in flour also? Hmmmm, best I re-educate myself. Um, probably the most disturbing thing is that our Minister for the saftey of food (or what ever its official title is) admits she is not happy with it, but there is apparently NOTHING she can do because of our agreement with Aussie. Hello? How about grow a pair, and say, "nope, we will hesitate here, we want to more fully investigate these findings". No she says, I can't do anything, but I will review it after it has happened. Too friggen late then!

You guys should not eat bread, unless you have made it yourself.

[doc]

I actually heard that its called "frolic" acid by the older chaps.

try it out on Maha and let me know:blip:

[Usarka]

I actually heard that its called "frolic" acid by the older chaps.

try it out on Maha and let me know:blip:

Just don't mistake it for bollick flacid.

[Ixion]

Because there's a lot of stupid people here that might 'accidently' get pregnant and not think (ha) to take folic acid.

..

AND... the politicians say they can't say no. Rubbish. ...

Hang about, hang about. Maybe I misunderstood.

D'y' mean that if chicks eat this folicated bread, then they get so they can't say no ?

In that case I'm all for it.

[Dave Lobster]

D'y' mean that if chicks eat this folicated bread, then they get so they can't say no ?



Likely to be the sort that you have to roll around in (folicated) flour first to find the right hole. (one that isn't just a roll of KFC induced lard)

[nosebleed]

I heard that Folic Acid in bread can neutralise the effect of Chemotherapy.

And it also gives you man boobs.
(I made one of those two up)

Jesus, looking at my mannories this shits been going on for years!

Hah, we can tell the US to stick their nuclear ships up their arse, but we pander to the ex-cons accross the ditch

[Ixion]

Bugger. Thought that was too good to be true.

In that case, I'm back to being agin it.

And as I'm too old to get pregnant, I want a discount on my bread henceforth.

[Mom]

Jesus, looking at my mannories this shits been going on for years!

Hah, we can tell the US to stick their nuclear ships up their arse, but we pander to the ex-cons accross the ditch!

Indeed :yes:

Want to know what is worse? It was the Labour government that signed this agreement (no doubt ably assisted by the greens).

Our new government, you know the changed one? Well they are the ones allowing this to happen. I think I must walk away from the PC now, for I fear my other fu fu valve is going to explode :D

They are all the same :2guns:

[mowgli]

They are all the same :2guns:
...and the fcukers keep getting away with it :angry:

Mr. Prosser: Do you know how much damage this bulldozer would sustain if I just let it roll over you?
Arthur: How much?
Mr. Prosser: None at all.

[nosebleed]

Interestingly though, Sue Kedgley (Greens) on Sundays Q+A was stalwartly against the move

http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news/q-paul-holmes-interviews-sue-kedgley-and-kate-wilkinson-folic-acid-15-32-2839686

SUE It is a very interesting issue for many reasons, one of them is food sovereignty, what the Minister's saying, she thinks it's a terrible decision, she's concerned about the health effects, but she says we have to go ahead because of some silly treaty with Australia, and by the way in that Canberra based organisation the Minister was talking about, and the Ministerial Council New Zealand has one vote out of ten, so what she's saying is we've lost our sovereignty. If she was the government and she'd made the decision, or the previous government had made the decision she would revoke it, but she can't. Now the other thing is the Minister cannot say, cannot assure New Zealanders that it is safe, because new evidence has emerged and quite recently, some of it since we signed the standard which says that pre cancerous tumours and cells may have their growth accelerated if you give them folic acid. Now back 40 years ago they gave folic acid in an experiment to children with leukaemia and they found to their horror that it had increase leukaemia.

[NinjaNanna]

Storm in a tea cup really.

Let due process run its course - its a bitch sure, but I somehow doubt the media will let this one go.

If the Minister for food saftey still doesn't do the review and act upon it - then we jump up and down real loud and long.

She seemed genuine enough on the television last night and we should give her the chance to do her job properly.

[Hitcher]

How say you guys?

I'm conflicted on this. Part of me says that people should have to take control of their own lives, but that would only be OK if they had to accept the full consequences of their own actions or lack of actions.

Part of me says that where their is an overwhelming societal benefit (e.g. vaccination, iodisation of salt and flouridation of drinking water), then mass medication should be encouraged.

Initiatives like adding folic acid to bread seem to fall between the two poles of my confliction. Not everybody who needs folate eats bread, and a lot of people who don't need folate do.

I'm also conflicted on this one because the Green Party says it's a bad idea, and I find myself agreeing with them. And that just isn't right.

[mowgli]

Interestingly though, Sue Kedgley (Greens) on Sundays Q+A was stalwartly against the move.

For a moment there Sue Kedgley rose in my estimation... that moment has well passed. The Greens are scary!

[Motu]

You guys should not eat bread, unless you have made it yourself.

For years I ground my own flour,and baked my own bread everyday - now one of my daughters bakes the same bread everyday because that's how she grew up.I think she has my flour mill too....maybe we should start grinding our own flour again too.

I'm glad I never turned in my hippy ways for money....in this day and age,growing and making your own food is a handy skill.

[ManDownUnder]

Question... where does one get this folic acid free wheat/flour... stuff...?

[ynot slow]

The thing with folic acid and spina bifida(sp)is any lady PLANNING pregnancy can take folic acid pills 1 mth prior to conception,the key word is planning folks.Also the amount of these births is under 20 per year.

The minister for food safety was adament there was nothing we could do until at least a month after the introduction of folic acid in bread,then the cost of printing bags etc means bakers will have spend money on bags they can't use,as it seems she is going to check it out at next conferance in Aussie in September.

Not often I agree with Greens and Holmes,but they made sense,England and Ireland are happy to wait out till further tests prove carcenogenic is ill proven.The stupid minister for food safety also thinks it isn't a good thing personally,but is hamstruck by working with Aussie.

[Naki Rat]

Doesn't bother me. I mean ask yourself, do you really know what is in most of todays food? I can't understand half the ingredents listed on manufactured food. Its hard to escape this sort of stuff in todays world.

You stick shit down your throat that you haven't a clue about :doh:


Look back at generations past and compare to todays. Too many people aint able to look after themselves. Obese childen is starting to become a comman sight these days. Work habbits have changed so that means a lot of people are too tired to make tea when they get home so they buy takeaways instead.....and the reasons just go on.

I honestly believe stuff like this will happen more often in the future.

Survival of the fittest, and that's definitely not those who are too lazy or stupid to feed themselves decent food :bye:

[AD345]

This is a universally BAD THING.

It is only a small percentage of women at risk in the first place (this makes a mockery of any comparison to flouride or iodine).

Preliminary studies have shown that the target demographic do not eat the required amount of bread at the moment and are likely to reduce their bread intake if this goes ahead.

The secondary effects of folic acid are poorly understood and all recent data suggests that much more detailed studies need to be done as the seeming incidence of contra indicated effects appears to be growing.

The major baking companies have lobbied against this for years and really need YOUR support to make the Govt. come to their senses.

It is BAD

[XxKiTtiExX]

What people don't realize is that if you are planning to become pregnant its best to take folic acid for 3 months prior to becoming pregnant right through to 3 months into the pregnancy for it to actually even help.

I barely eat 2 slices of bread a day, let alone being expected to eat 11 slices of bread a day for 6 months (for the correct intake). 3 months course of folic acid only costs $3.00 (when prescribed by your GP).

Don't see much point in putting folic acid into bread and literally forcing it down the throats of people who don't need it though. It should be more about educating those who may need it before they plan to/end up pregnant. (as someone else mentioned some pregnancies are unplanned).

On a side note.... Not once was folic acid (before and during pregnancy) mentioned to me by my Northland GP.

[Dave Lobster]

Wouldn't it hit the desired target better by putting folic acid in Family Buckets?

[Usarka]

Is it safe for people to keep taking vitamin b supplements like beroca and others (esp high potency ones)? Or is there an "upper limit" on folic acid intake....? :sherlock:

[Flatcap]

Wouldn't it hit the desired target better by putting folic acid in Family Buckets?

Nah - better to crush The Pill and include that in the seasoning

[Finn]

Wouldn't it hit the desired target better by putting folic acid in Family Buckets?

I think contraception would be better.

[Flatcap]

I think contraception would be better.

Great minds and all.....

[Mully]

Question... where does one get this folic acid free wheat/flour... stuff...?

You've got plenty of space at your place - you can grow your own wheat.

I'm actually terrified when I agree with the Greens. It doesn't happen often.

FWIW (and don't shoot the messenger) my understanding is that NZFSA is trying to get a sweetheart deal with their Aussie counterparts for Trans-Tasman food shipments. I believe this is why they feel they can't scrap it straight away.

[davereid]

It would appear that the "food safety authority" are incorrectly named. They are pushing the introduction of an additive that may be harmful !

Perhaps they should be renamed the "compulsory medication authority".

Then they can force all sorts of great drugs on us, after proper evaluation by australian experts of course.

All the standard ones like fluoride and iodine should be beyond debate. But we could add asprin to our water as it might reduce heart attack risk.

What about Disulfiram to reduce alcohol consumption, and Rimonabant to reduce our obesity and lipids ?

We could put ACC up heaps, just in case we fuck it up and it turns out that it causes cancer.

[ManDownUnder]

You've got plenty of space at your place - you can grow your own wheat.

And destroy a clear line of sight on the gun range??? NEVER!


I'm actually terrified when I agree with the Greens. It doesn't happen often.
YUP! I know that feeling. I love watching them drive to their save the whales tree hugging conferences in their Morris Minors while singing Koombaya ... belching clouds of blue smoke the whole way.


FWIW (and don't shoot the messenger) my understanding is that NZFSA is trying to get a sweetheart deal with their Aussie counterparts for Trans-Tasman food shipments. I believe this is why they feel they can't scrap it straight away.
The messenger's safe. I've got no problems protecting trans tasman trade so long as there's a way of mitigating any 'orrible effects to me and mine - hence the question...

I wouldn't be allowed to sell the bread of course... but a Koha might do the trick. Can I do that - or do I need Maori blood in me?

... and would a transfusion give me Maori heritage

[Badjelly]

I trust everyone contributing to the debate on this issue is aware that folic acid is a vitamin (meaning it's a chemical that our bodies need and can't make on their own) and that it occurs naturally in a wide range of foods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folic_acid

I'm not entering the debate on either side at the moment, I just want to check that everyone's aware of the facts.

[mister.koz]

Is it safe for people to keep taking vitamin b supplements like beroca and others (esp high potency ones)? Or is there an "upper limit" on folic acid intake....? :sherlock:

The difference is people taking berocca are asking for it, if it was bad then people can not take it. If they mass medicate (fluoride/water, iodine/salt, folic acid/flour) then EVERYONE gets medicated whether they want to or not.

The option for avoiding iodine is easy, you buy non-iodized salt. But the others are not so easy!

Mass-medication is a bad idea even if the reason for it is good, its Nannying yes but worst of all it takes away the freedom of choice of the individual.

[Mully]

I wouldn't be allowed to sell the bread of course... but a Koha might do the trick. Can I do that - or do I need Maori blood in me?

... and would a transfusion give me Maori heritage

Well, now that you work mere metres from home, you could get a breadmaker and bake your own. You could nip home (on your coffee break) to turn the machine off.


Wikipedia is typically vague:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folic_acid

"It causes cancer. No, it prevents cancer. Shit, it's one of the two" (note, not a direct quite - just paraphrasing)

[mister.koz]

I trust everyone contributing to the debate on this issue is aware that folic acid is a vitamin (meaning it's a chemical that our bodies need and can't make on their own) and that it occurs naturally in a wide range of foods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folic_acid

I'm not entering the debate on either side at the moment, I just want to check that everyone's aware of the facts.

It is true but by that token they should put vitamin C, iron, magnesium citrate, and a bucket of vitamins in our water without our input, pitty about the poor sods like me who aren't deficient of everything because i eat a balanced diet.

Its the lack of choice (by all new zealanders - even government) thats the issue here.

[Badjelly]

Wikipedia is typically vague:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folic_acid

"It causes cancer. No, it prevents cancer. Shit, it's one of the two" (note, not a direct quite - just paraphrasing)

It looks like it does both, for different cancers at different stages. Why is saying so being vague?

[ManDownUnder]

It looks like it does both, for different cancers at different stages. Why is saying so being vague?

He's carrying a bucket of wees away...

[want-a-harley]

I'm more concerned about high levels of salt, sugar and preservatives added to bread rather than the addition of a trace mineral. What a bout iodization of salt and fluoridation of water?

[Badjelly]

He's carrying a bucket of wees away...

:confused: :confused:

[ManDownUnder]

:confused: :confused:

... removing the urine... stealing the Rheineck... taking the piss...

[Shadows]

FWIW (and don't shoot the messenger) my understanding is that NZFSA is trying to get a sweetheart deal with their Aussie counterparts for Trans-Tasman food shipments. I believe this is why they feel they can't scrap it straight away.

Which is daft considering there would be no such thing with bread anyway.

[jim.cox]

What a bout iodization of salt and fluoridation of water?

Both undesirable

Leave our food alone

[Naki Rat]

Which is daft considering there would be no such thing with bread anyway.

But NZ does import Aussie wheat flour. ???

[jono035]

For years I ground my own flour,and baked my own bread everyday - now one of my daughters bakes the same bread everyday because that's how she grew up.I think she has my flour mill too....maybe we should start grinding our own flour again too.

I'm glad I never turned in my hippy ways for money....in this day and age,growing and making your own food is a handy skill.

Gutted for when they start genetically modifying the wheat to contain folate though :D

I started baking my own bread (in a breadmaker, the lazy way) as of a few months ago and haven't bought bread in months. No slightly-elevated-chance-of-prostate-cancer for me, thankyou!

I think the argument goes something along the lines of: Folate is needed from very early on in pregnancies and a lot of pregnancies in NZ are unplanned, therefore everyone in NZ should be getting dosed with Folate just in case. I see the good intentions behind the idea, but didn't someone once say that the road to hell was paved with them?

Edit: Also I think a lot of people don't realise just how non-understood a lot of this stuff is, judging by the replies thus far... An interesting debate nonetheless...

[Okey Dokey]

I believe the supplement is going in flour, too, except organic flour, as the OP said in her first post. Bummer, I've been baking our family bread for decades and will definitely get a 20kg of undosed flour before they start adding crap to it.

[jono035]

I believe the supplement is going in flour, too, except organic flour, as the OP said in her first post. Bummer, I've been baking our family bread for decades and will definitely get a 20kg of undosed flour before they start adding crap to it.

Oh what? All the news articles I read said that it was going in bread <_< damnit.

[Mully]

Which is daft considering there would be no such thing with bread anyway.

Indeed. But we must show ourselves to be subserviant to our 'strayan masters


Oh what? All the news articles I read said that it was going in bread <_< damnit.


'Straya are putting it into flour - we are adding it to bread.

For now.

[Naki Rat]

Gutted for when they start genetically modifying the wheat to contain folate though :D ......


I believe the supplement is going in flour, too, except organic flour, as the OP said in her first post. Bummer, I've been baking our family bread for decades and will definitely get a 20kg of undosed flour before they start adding crap to it.

Join the dots. There's no need to add it to flour if it is GE'd to already contain it :no:

[Ixion]

There's a VERY important (indeed, supremely important point) that I am still not clear on.

They are going to add folic acid to bread. Bad. But , one can cope. Simply don't eat bread.

But --- ARE THEY GOING TO ADD IT TO PIES?

If they start meddling with our pies, there's nothing for it but civil war.

Seriously.

[jono035]

There's a VERY important (indeed, supremely important point) that I am still not clear on.

They are going to add folic acid to bread. Bad. But , one can cope. Simply don't eat bread.

But --- ARE THEY GOING TO ADD IT TO PIES?

If they start meddling with our pies, there's nothing for it but civil war.

Seriously.

They won't bother adding it to pies, they'll just go straight to cattle-feed. Folate-fortified steak!

Then again, if you're eating your average Big Ben pie then chances are you're still safe :laugh:

Edit: "It looks like it does both, for different cancers at different stages. Why is saying so being vague? " A lot of people really don't seem to understand that some of this stuff is only barely beginning to be understood, let alone seriously tested. Nothing in nature is complete black and white, so anything to do with cancer sure won't be either. Ultimately what most of it comes down to is that it's all a crapshoot anyway! I'm still waiting for someone to have a closer look at Aspartame but the inner tinfoil-hatter says that it'll never be allowed to happen.

[MaxB]

On talkback yesterday there was a loony likening Uncle Helen to a great military leader. Even in retreat those leaders leave countless booby traps to trip up the new occupiers.

Well we have the foreshore fiasco, anti-smacking, eco light bulbs, climate change laws and folic acid in bread, all passed while the previous lot were in. Looks like the loony was right.

Nothing should be added to our food without us having an equivalent choice. Simple as.

[Pussy]

But --- ARE THEY GOING TO ADD IT TO PIES?

If they start meddling with our pies, there's nothing for it but civil war.

Seriously.

See post #9, Ixion.
You're quite correct... it will be serious shit

[Ixion]

Did y' know that human semen is rich in folate (no, I didn't either until now).

So the cause of the problem, and it's solution seems obvious.

Swallow, ladies. If you don't , it's your own fault.

[Mom]

On the subject of fluoride in water, I am also anti that in a big way. Our town water does not have it, and rain water was the only thing my kids drank when they were little. There is fluoride in toothpaste (bloody kids eat that when they are young) and I did used to give the kids fluoride tablets when they were really little. Fluoride makes teeth a little bit smaller and as a result a bit denser and less prone to decay.

As far as iodine in salt goes, you would have to eat a toxic amount of table salt to ingest enough iodine to kill you. Salt is a use sparingly condiment anyway, water and bread are a staple part of a diet. You can not compare the addition of iodine and fluoride to the addition of folic acid.

[jono035]

On the subject of fluoride in water, I am also anti that in a big way. Our town water does not have it, and rain water was the only thing my kids drank when they were little. There is fluoride in toothpaste (bloody kids eat that when they are young) and I did used to give the kids fluoride tablets when they were really little. Fluoride makes teeth a little bit smaller and as a result a bit denser and less prone to decay.

As far as iodine in salt goes, you would have to eat a toxic amount of table salt to ingest enough iodine to kill you. Salt is a use sparingly condiment anyway, water and bread are a staple part of a diet. You can not compare the addition of iodine and fluoride to the addition of folic acid.

The problem with the discussions I've had about flouride with people is that you get the inevitable "I never had any flouride in my water and I've never had a filling!" anecdotes. Some people have good teeth to begin with. Some people can get away with brushing their teeth with a chocolate bar and gargling with fizzy drink before bed. I don't have good teeth and had to get some major filling work done when I was younger. I don't eat anything really sweet or drink fizzy drinks now, combined with flossing every day, brushing my teeth twice a day and chewing Xylitol gum after every meal and yet I'm still going to need a filling done soon. With that amount of variance person to person you're never going to be able to tell the difference between people who get supplemental flouride and people who don't without surveying a very large number of people.

That said, I'd prefer they just mailed out free flouride tablets to every household but then again you'd get people who couldn't be bothered taking them or getting their kids to take them. Go figure.

[Mom]

That said, I'd prefer they just mailed out free flouride tablets to every household but then again you'd get people who couldn't be bothered taking them or getting their kids to take them. Go figure.

I just have a problem with big brother determining what drugs I take. As I stated my children were given fluoride tablets when they were growing up, we were on tank water and no fluoride in it. At least if I was administering the tablets I could keep track of the amount they were taking. Now this was a long time ago, and I dont remember what the RDI for fluoride is for little kids, but what I do know is the little buggers eat toothpaste and drink water (well mine did anyway) you have no way of knowing just how much they have taken. Argue the benefits I will agreee with you, but dont FFS mass medicate me or my children, through our bread or water.

I wont even buy a fortified cereal in the supermarket mate, that is how much I detest others deciding what is good for me.

[jono035]

I just have a problem with big brother determining what drugs I take. As I stated my children were given fluoride tablets when they were growing up, we were on tank water and no fluoride in it. At least if I was administering the tablets I could keep track of the amount they were taking. Now this was a long time ago, and I dont remember what the RDI for fluoride is for little kids, but what I do know is the little buggers eat toothpaste and drink water (well mine did anyway) you have no way of knowing just how much they have taken. Argue the benefits I will agreee with you, but dont FFS mass medicate me or my children, through our bread or water.

I wont even buy a fortified cereal in the supermarket mate, that is how much I detest others deciding what is good for me.

Sorry, I think my point was a little bit lost in my usual rambling way.

I agree with you entirely.

I was referring to parents who wouldn't get their kids to take it because it was too hard to do or too easy to forget.

Not parents who would make informed choices about what is best for their children and then monitor them to make sure that it all happens.

[davereid]

Did y' know that human semen is rich in folate (no, I didn't either until now). So the cause of the problem, and it's solution seems obvious. Swallow, ladies. If you don't , it's your own fault.

I don't suppose you could recommend a precise dose.. wife just wants to know.

[Naki Rat]

...... "It looks like it does both, for different cancers at different stages. Why is saying so being vague? " The short answer is that they just don't know A lot of people really don't seem to understand that some of this stuff is only barely beginning to be understood, let alone seriously tested. Nothing in nature is complete black and white, so anything to do with cancer sure won't be either. Ultimately what most of it comes down to is that it's all a crapshoot anyway! I'm still waiting for someone to have a closer look at Aspartame but the inner tinfoil-hatter says that it'll never be allowed to happen.

Even more worrying is that the 'average' diet now contains aspartame, fluoride, nitrates, preservatives, flavour enhancers, colourings, and a heap of other questionable substances. Add to that a mouth full of mercury laiden fillings, formaldehyde gassing from our homes' materials, plasticisers from packaging, solvent extracted cooking oils, God knows what in dodgy imported foods (that we're struggling to have labelled with country of origin), chemical laden make-up and antiperspirants, etc., etc. So while we're at it why not some folate in our bread as well.

The problem is that just a few of these substances are capable of causing health problems in even healthy individuals but put them all together and add the increasingly compromised state of the nation's health due to poor diet, declining health services and just general ignorance, and we have a recipe for disaster :shit:

Check out the DVD "FoodMatters", available from your local alternative health store and you will view what you eat in a whole new light.

Rant over. Enjoy your tea :sick:

[Forest]

You guys are nutjobs.

Folic Acid is just another name for Vitamin B9.

If you've ever taken a multi-vitamin supplement, then you've already been 'medicating' yourself.

[Ixion]

Big difference between me self-medicating, and the gubbermint medicating me whether I like it or not.

[Ixion]

I don't suppose you could recommend a precise dose.. wife just wants to know.

Three squirts and a splodge should be about right.

[Forest]

Big difference between me self-medicating, and the gubbermint medicating me whether I like it or not.

You're not being medicated.

Is iodisation of table salt medication? Is the chlorination or flurodation of tap water medication?

Vitamin B9 is a naturally occurring substance that's found in a wide range of natural foods. It's an essential part of the human diet, so you're already eating it whether you realise it or not.

[Naki Rat]

You guys are nutjobs.

Folic Acid is just another name for Vitamin B9.

If you've ever taken a multi-vitamin supplement, then you've already been 'medicating' yourself.

The folate/vitamin B9 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folic_acid) that will be dosed into bread is the synthetic version, as opposed to the naturally occurring one in spinach, brewers yeast and wheat (before they refine the bejesus out of it). It is essential to rapid cell division so obviously in embryo development but by the same token gives cancer a help along.

[Ixion]

You're not being medicated.

Is iodisation of table salt medication? Is the chlorination or flurodation of tap water medication?

Vitamin B9 is a naturally occurring substance that's found in a wide range of natural foods. It's an essential part of the human diet, so you're already eating it whether you realise it or not.

See Mom's rebuttal below of the false analogy with iodised salt and fluoided water 9don't agree with either of those either BTW)

And I fully realise that folate is found in food. Whence I get as much as I need, not being a pregnant chick.

And I also realise (as perhaps you do not) that apart from the increased risk of cancer, excessive folate intake (like, what you get when the gubbermint is shovelling it into your food whether you need it or not) can cause serious health issues in older people (like, me) by masking B12 deficiency.

And older men , as well as being at the most risk of prostate cancer, are also the most like to have B12 deficiency . It's a lot harder to ensure you get adequate B12 from your diet than to get adequate folate, and B12 deficiency is already a significant problem .

And whereas it is easy for a chick (or me , for that matter, if I needed it) to take a folic acid pill, it's a shit load harder to remove the excessive, and harmful , overload from the bread.

This is simply another example of the health system focusing totally on women's (perceived) health issues and ignoring men's.

I see no reason at all why *my* health should be endangered because some chick is to dopey to either eat a balanced diet or take a pill (failure in the pill department probably also being the reason she's up the duff in the first place)



The only saving grace is that one of the best sources of B12 is pies. (seriously)

[AD345]

I'm more concerned about high levels of salt, sugar and preservatives added to bread rather than the addition of a trace mineral. What a bout iodization of salt and fluoridation of water?

Well then your worries are easily satisfied, most (not all) nationally available breads qualify for the Heart Foundation Tick for low sodium levels. Those that dont are less than 1.5% away.

Sugar is no longer added to bread (you do get it in buns and rolls)

There are no preservatives in bread.

Hope you feel better

[AD345]

But NZ does import Aussie wheat flour. ???

Always have done - when it's available. Occasionally it has been Canadian and in the last few years there were a couple of shipments from the Ukraine.

NZ cannot grow enough wheat to meet its milling needs.

[AD345]

I believe the supplement is going in flour, too, except organic flour, as the OP said in her first post. Bummer, I've been baking our family bread for decades and will definitely get a 20kg of undosed flour before they start adding crap to it.

It will be added to the Improver (main ingredient used to manufacture bread after flour, yeast and water)

[Deano]

Because there's a lot of stupid people here that might 'accidently' get pregnant and not think (ha) to take folic acid.

Check out the fat thread. We have a LOT of stupid people in NZ.

AND... the politicians say they can't say no. Rubbish. Of course they can. It's easy...

It's hard when people are soooo stupid though.

I saw a kid on the way to school eating a bag of chippies the other day - ok...just maybe it was a treat, but......

judging by the size of her arse, (I don't usually check out school girls arses ok) and her mother's arse, I'd say it was a standard breakfast item.

People are stoopid. Much easier to blame someone else (like McDondald's) or the gubbmint for their shortfallings. :2guns:

[Hitcher]

NZ cannot grow enough wheat to meet its milling needs.

Not quite. New Zealand struggles to grow wheat varieties with a baking score suited to bread making.

[Mom]

Our food safety standards are very poor in NZ. Hells teeth, us little folk have to rely on the Government, and their Ministries to follow the rules to keep our food safe. We cant trust them at all, they bow to any breeze, where are the balls here?

Hitcher comments on being conflicted, I am doubly conflicted! Who would have ever have thunk I would wholeheartedly and more endorse the Greens. Watch the spin doctors now.

I hear that maybe they may reconsider the blind following of the agreement, I am not holding my breath.

[AD345]

Not quite. New Zealand struggles to grow wheat varieties with a baking score suited to bread making.

Tomato

Tomato

[jono035]

Tomato

Tomato

Not really known for their baking usefulness, tomatoes....

[Forest]

Our food safety standards are very poor in NZ.

Actually the standards are among the best in the world. They have to be to allow our export products to enter foreign markets.

Go out and travel a little. You'll soon find that the rest of the world operates to much lower standards then we do.

[peasea]

I think putting LSD in bread would be funnier, but hey, that's just me.

[Mom]

Actually the standards are among the best in the world. They have to be to allow our export products to enter foreign markets.

Go out and travel a little. You'll soon find that the rest of the world operates to much lower standards then we do.

Who says I have not travelled? Cool, so just because the rest of the world accepts poor standards, then we have to as well? I say again, I do not want drugs foisted on me, or my kids, or my grandkids to be. Who knows what the cumulative effect of this will be on future generations?

[jono035]

Actually the standards are among the best in the world. They have to be to allow our export products to enter foreign markets.

Go out and travel a little. You'll soon find that the rest of the world operates to much lower standards then we do.

Export market and domestic market goods can vary pretty dramatically though... Not to mention imported goods... Chinese canned fruit anyone? Now with extra concrete dust?

[idleidolidyll]

Yup,
why the hell should i be dosed with extra folic acid so that pregnant chicks can get some too?

talk about a blunt tool; i think i'll give up bread

[MsKABC]

These days it seems you have to pay for a very expensive (almost $1 a day) pill over the counter,

Nope - it is possible to get straight folic acid OTC at the pharmacy very cheaply (around $10 gives you enough to last the 4 months that you need to take them for, from memory). The pills you are probably thinking of are 'Elevit', and they are an absolute rip-off.

[Deano]

Who says I have not travelled? Cool, so just because the rest of the world accepts poor standards, then we have to as well? I say again, I do not want drugs foisted on me, or my kids, or my grandkids to be. Who knows what the cumulative effect of this will be on future generations?

Hopefully sterilisation if the species is to survive. (That's not a personal dig BTW)

But probably similar to all the other shit that is foisted upon us in the 21st century. Pollution etc.

And NZ has some pretty poor standards compared to the rest of the world.

[ManDownUnder]

If they start meddling with our pies, there's nothing for it but civil war.

On this point there can be no argument! Take it INTERNATIONAL (***BOM bom BOM*** kettle drums in the background!!!!)

[Dave Lobster]

I think putting LSD in bread would be funnier, but hey, that's just me.

Off topic.. sorry... but can anyone remember that film where there was a guy smuggling to bottles of LSD somewhere.. and he tested it on his cat? Old film..

ta

[jono035]

A breadmaker is one thing that I would recommend to anyone with a spare spot on the bench anyway. If you keep the ingredients and measuring stuff handy it only takes a couple of minutes tops to put a loaf on and the smell/taste of fresh bread just can't be beaten.

I make wholemeal loaves with pumpkin seeds, linseed, and sunflower seeds. Also fresh foccacia with rosemary and garlic crust... mmmmm...

Won't save ya that much money really, but it sure as hell is a tasty way to avoid folic acid!

[peasea]

A breadmaker is one thing that I would recommend to anyone with a spare spot on the bench anyway. If you keep the ingredients and measuring stuff handy it only takes a couple of minutes tops to put a loaf on and the smell/taste of fresh bread just can't be beaten.

I make wholemeal loaves with pumpkin seeds, linseed, and sunflower seeds. Also fresh foccacia with rosemary and garlic crust... mmmmm...

Won't save ya that much money really, but it sure as hell is a tasty way to avoid folic acid!

I'm with you on that one. My sister had one for years, great smells and yummy bread. Screw the tossers trying to mass-medicate us, I'll make the choice if you don't mind.

[Str8 Jacket]

On the subject of fluoride in water, I am also anti that in a big way.

I grew up in Ohakune, we had fluoride in our water. I am 28 now and have NEVER had a filling or the need for one in my lifetime so far... Also, to put things in perspective, I have drunk around about 1.5-2litres of coke/ diet coke a day since I was 15. And before anyone judges, I dont care!

[Naki Rat]

Yup,
why the hell should i be dosed with extra folic acid so that pregnant chicks can get some too?

talk about a blunt tool; i think i'll give up bread

According to polls I ran this and another very different forum recently 25% (more or less) of us have a problem with wheat and so have , or are in the process of, giving up bread and other wheat containing products :sick:

[Okey Dokey]

I hope you are right, Mully. I was sure I had read it was going in our flour, too. I particularly watched for this as I am a home baker. Here's hoping I read it wrong. I can't find an article at the moment, but will continue to watch.

[oldrider]

I hope you are right, Mully. I was sure I had read it was going in our flour, too. I particularly watched for this as I am a home baker. Here's hoping I read it wrong. I can't find an article at the moment, but will continue to watch.

Yes, read that too some where, or heard it on the radio but was definitely referred to some where!

We are gluten intolerant and are very careful about what we bake with.

Mass medication pisses me off it comes from state school teachers, the way they punish the majority for the behaviour of the few mental attitude!

Bloody socialists don't understand personal responsibility and freedom of the individual. :brick:

[cold comfort]

the Burgen "soy-lin" bread on the bench has (accord to the wrapper) 200ug of folate (folic acid) per 100gm serving. So its already in some bread now. The Ministers comment that there is "no science to say it is a problem but no-one know what the long term effects are" is not very reassuring! Acc to the news NZ now has the 3rd fattest population in the world. So.. as a large proportion of stupid, lazy women who don't know they are preganant, are likely to be FAT, there is a good chance they will eat the requisite 11 slices of bread a day. So the gubbermint is always right!

[Badjelly]

...The Ministers comment that there is "no science to say it is a problem but no-one know what the long term effects are" is not very reassuring!...

You want to be 100% reassured nothing you eat (or fail to eat) will hurt you? You're on the wrong planet.

Soy+linseed breads are also high in phytoestrogens. Wikipaedia says these are "considered by some nutritionists to be useful in the prevention of cancer and by others to be carcinogenic and endocrine disruptive". Given that these mimic female hormones, I think they are best avoided by men.

Regarding flour, NZ soils are very low in selenium, so before we started importing Australian flour, selenium deficiency was a problem. Luckily, Aussie soils have more selenium than ours, so it doesn't need to be added artificially.

Selenium is an essential mineral that is extremely poisonous in large doses. Like quite a few other things.

[Naki Rat]

........ Acc to the news NZ now has the 3rd fattest population in the world. .......

Despite some time spent trying to find the study quoted by numerous news media I cannot find the basis for this claim. No graph, no tables, no list to back up the "3rd in the world" claim.

If anybody can provide the evidence I would be very interested but in the absence of same I am assuming that this just another crock manufactured by the powers that be in order to beat us up with the guilts :spanking:

[James Deuce]

Looks like it's been dropped by the Nats and it wasn't going in flour, only non-organic bread. Whatever the hell non-organic bread is.

http://www.nzfsa.govt.nz/consumers/chemicals-nutrients-additives-and-toxins/folate/index.htm#P39_3272

The reasoning:

http://www.foodstandards.govt.nz/standardsdevelopment/proposals/proposalp295considerationofmandatoryfortificationw ithfolicacid/p295finalassessmentr3568.cfm

[Shadows]

the Burgen "soy-lin" bread on the bench has (accord to the wrapper) 200ug of folate (folic acid) per 100gm serving. So its already in some bread now. The Ministers comment that there is "no science to say it is a problem but no-one know what the long term effects are" is not very reassuring! Acc to the news NZ now has the 3rd fattest population in the world. So.. as a large proportion of stupid, lazy women who don't know they are preganant, are likely to be FAT, there is a good chance they will eat the requisite 11 slices of bread a day. So the gubbermint is always right!

The folate in that bread comes from that naturally occurring in the ingredients. As in a lot of the foods we eat. It is not "fortified".

[Naki Rat]

The folate in that bread comes from that naturally occurring in the ingredients. As in a lot of the foods we eat. It is not "fortified".

And in most breads the wheat has been that heavily refined to a dead white carbohydrate (flour) that most of the folate has long since gone. A bit of wholegrain goes some of the way in correcting that situation (but only a bit).

[cold comfort]

[QUOTE=Badjelly;1129307138]" You want to be 100% reassured nothing you eat (or fail to eat) will hurt you? You're on the wrong planet."

Nothing that simplistic- (Personally i have no reason to believe its problematic). Its really the moral issue of mass medication. Just amusing the govt are always keen to implement something they do not know about long term. There are many instances where they have said later "oops, we were wrong". (eg rushed swine flu vacc resulting in 500 cases Guillian Barre syndrome with 25 deaths).
I didn't say the bread was "fortified" just noted it was present. If you then add a random dosage (which the bakers assoc says it will be) and eat variable quantities, how much do you get?
My post was largely tongue in cheek however, there is never any shortage of "expert opinion" wiling to jump on percieved inaccuracies

[jono035]

I grew up in Ohakune, we had fluoride in our water. I am 28 now and have NEVER had a filling or the need for one in my lifetime so far... Also, to put things in perspective, I have drunk around about 1.5-2litres of coke/ diet coke a day since I was 15. And before anyone judges, I dont care!

Go take a read of my earlier post about anecdotal evidence in the flouride discussion. If you surveyed 5000 people and they all said this, then maybe you could draw some kind of useful analysis of it.

Some people have genetically good, strong teeth, others don't.

[MSTRS]

Looks like it's been dropped by the Nats and it wasn't going in flour, only non-organic bread. Whatever the hell non-organic bread is.

http://www.nzfsa.govt.nz/consumers/chemicals-nutrients-additives-and-toxins/folate/index.htm#P39_3272


This 'report' says 2-3 slices = RDI....but up to 11 slices has been mentioned as being reqd. And is that thick or thin slices? What gives? How many woman would eat the equivalent of 11 slices/day anyway?
As an aside, I eat about 8 slices (thick) a day. Apparently, that much bread is not 'good for me'. Neither is running in front of a bus. But it's my choice.
Even 'boutique' bakeries (your local hot bread shop) have to comply...how many 'at risk' women shop for bread there?

This whole thing smells. And not of that lovely yeasty-just-baked variety.

[Str8 Jacket]

Go take a read of my earlier post about anecdotal evidence in the flouride discussion. If you surveyed 5000 people and they all said this, then maybe you could draw some kind of useful analysis of it.

Some people have genetically good, strong teeth, others don't.

Uh huh and maybe I just want to believe what *I* want to believe in. OK? :)

[jono035]

Uh huh and maybe I just want to believe what *I* want to believe in. OK? :)

Lol, no worries :D

[AD345]

And in most breads the wheat has been that heavily refined to a dead white carbohydrate (flour) that most of the folate has long since gone. A bit of wholegrain goes some of the way in correcting that situation (but only a bit).

Wheat is ground - not refined.

It is simply passed between an ever-closer set of reduction rollers. the parts of the wheat grain that fall outside of the rollers are kept and added back in at varying levels depending on the recipe - thus creating wheatmeal loaves as opposed to wholemeal loaves.

Our food chain is much less manipulated than you seem to think

[Rodney007]

OH NOO LETS CRY WAAA WAAAA WAAA

just eat it u panzies...

[James Deuce]

OH NOO LETS CRY WAAA WAAAA WAAA

just eat it u panzies...

Don't forget to increase the number of prostate checks you go for. There is an identified correlation between prostate cancer and a consistent overdose of folate.

[Rodney007]

Don't forget to increase the number of prostate checks you go for. There is an identified correlation between prostate cancer and a consistent overdose of folate.

have you got proof?

[James Deuce]

Why, yes.
http://www.webmd.com/prostate-cancer/news/20090310/folic-acid-may-raise-prostate-cancer-risk

http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/djp019

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=98438

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2009/03/11/more_folic_acid_may_raise_prostate_cancer_risk/

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/article976033.ece

http://www.prostatecancerfoundation.org/site/c.itIWK2OSG/b.5026553/k.BAD8/Folic_Acid_Supplements_Raise_Prostate_Cancer_Risk. htm

http://medicineworld.org/stories/lead/3-2009/folic-acid-may-increase-prostate-cancer-risk.html

Now bear in mind that in NZ no one gives a fuck if men die of Prostate cancer, and also bear in mind that I said a consistent overdose of folic acid has been fingered as contributing to an increased chance of prostate cancer.

Folate has been identified as micronutirent that improves cell division, however cancer cells, particularly those involved in prostate cancer have been shown to increase their folate receptors to help power cancer cell division.

[Naki Rat]

Don't forget to increase the number of prostate checks you go for. There is an identified correlation between prostate cancer and a consistent overdose of folate.


have you got proof?

Well folate aides rapid cell growth (e.g. embryos, tumours), so what is it you don't understand?

[ynot slow]

Ireland and Britain have postponed their folic acid compulsion pending tests and more research,due to the possible causes of both Colon and Prostate cancer,so the Colon cancer is a big concern due to both sexes being able to get colon cancer.And as colon cancer is the biggest cancer to kill in NZ makes for food for thought,and no need to rush in.

And Key thinks it is not needed,so maybe the minister for food safety should say,well it isn't safe we don't need it.

[James Deuce]

Folate is "safe" though, and women should supplement during preganancy simply to stop their hair from falling out. As far as treatment for neural tube defects, the spine forms in the first month of foetal development. If your folic acid levels aren't optimal at conception, subsequent supplmentation isn't going to help offset an increased chance of neural tube defects.

What isn't safe is overdosing on Folic Acid (the artificial version of folate) or folate. Micro nutrients need to be part of a balanced diet, and the research around micro nutrient supplementation and cancer treatment has highlighted that too much of a good thing can actually make cancer more aggressive.

[Motu]

No wonder Labour turned this country into a Nanny State - everyone welcomed it with open arms!

[Mom]

Nice comments JD! I agree totally. Folate is safe, and is available to you through a well managed diet, or supplements should your diet not be sufficient in something that you know will help prevent something like neural tube defect when you conceive.

I guess my biggest spin and the message I want to really get across here is be aware! Take notice. Educate yourself. Dont sit back and allow the government of the day to medicate you willy nilly with what ever new and improved supplement there is out there.

I read there are breads already available with a high folic acid content, yes there are. But, it is naturally derived, not friggen added by a less than awake, apprentice baker at source (my apologies to all the apprentice bakers that are awake too, before I get hammered).

You guys are far too laid back with your own health sometimes. This additive has shown the ability to increase the rate of prostate cancer growth. I cant get that, but you know I am concerned enough about it to say NOPE! I dont want it in my daily bread.

[AD345]

But, it is naturally derived, not friggen added by a less than awake, apprentice baker at source



It will actually be added to the ingredients by the ingredient manufacturer

but your point is valid

[peasea]

Yes, read that too some where, or heard it on the radio but was definitely referred to some where!

We are gluten intolerant and are very careful about what we bake with.

Mass medication pisses me off it comes from state school teachers, the way they punish the majority for the behaviour of the few mental attitude!

Bloody socialists don't understand personal responsibility and freedom of the individual. :brick:

Dumbing-down, stereo-typing, cookie-cutter kids/adults, blindly following the 'norm' is exactly what they are aiming for. 'They' being 'them', it's a conspiracy and they're watching us now, they know we're paranoid but because WE know they know WE are more knowing. (But they know that.)

[mstriumph]

Dumbing-down, stereo-typing, cookie-cutter kids/adults, blindly following the 'norm' is exactly what they are aiming for. 'They' being 'them', it's a conspiracy and they're watching us now, they know we're paranoid but because WE know they know WE are more knowing. (But they know that.)

Wot he said!!
Bling awarded :sunny:

[James Deuce]

(Chief Wiggum Voice) Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat (Chief Wiggum Voice Off)

[idb]

Crumbs!!!!

[Genestho]

Down with folic in bread! And flour?? (haven't read the whole thread, no time. Only know a little bit bout this travesty)

Uh uh no way! I Don't do gluten based stuff MUCH, but my kids do!

[Badjelly]

Only know a little bit bout this travesty.

But you know it's a travesty?

[Genestho]

When I became pregant, I knew what my body needed, because I found out what my unborn child and body needed, and so, adjusted my diet. (Referring to Folic acid and Iron intake) My kids eat well nutrionally.

Our food could be medicated because others don't know what their body requires???

That alone, is enough for me to know, and say, this is a travesty.

In saying that - I'm sure there's surely got to be more to it than that, surely.

How about adding nutrients to the soil? I've heard in NZ we miss an important mineral. And so, some of our produce suffers, don't know enough about it though. Also, educating women their iron and folic needs, why, and how to get these in our diets?

[Naki Rat]

......
How about adding nutients to the soil? I've heard in NZ we miss an important mineral. And so, some of our produce suffers, don't know enough about it though.

That's only part of the problem. The fertilizers commonly used in conventional farming address pretty much only the 'macro elements' (i.e. N,P,K, magnesium, sulphur, calcium) with the micro (trace) elements being largely ignored. As the macro's are replaced the trace elements often run down over time resulting in crops and pastures that are deficient in these essential substances which in turn fails to provide the elements to the livestock and us. So then the food, which is further robbed of nutrients during processing, requires additives to make up for these shortfalls or we purchase those same missing nutrients as highly priced supplements from the chemist/health store or get wise/worried and purchase organic.

And this hit or miss way of balancing our nutritional needs can be blamed for far more of our declining health levels (and rising obesity) than authorities will admit, or are even aware of.
End of today's rant :done:

[Badjelly]

OK, T. G. W., I agree with you & pretty much every commenter on this issue that "mass medication" is a bad thing. (It is an irritatingly emotive phrase, but apparently quite effective.) But if mass medication is bad, why do we have iodide in the salt and fluoride in the water. Someone, I think Mom, said they're not comparable. I'm buggered if I can see why. People who think they need more iodide or fluoride can take tablets or use fluoridated toothpaste. Why should I run the risk of the harm that iodide or fluoride can do to me for their benefit? There's no risk, someone says? You can't prove that. Lack of risk can never be proved. Demanding that it be proved is a good way of arguing against anything.

OK, so salt is normally iodised to protect people from goitre. (Does anyone know if this is a legal requirement?) But you can buy non-iodised salt.

So how about allowing folate to be added to bread, with mandatory labelling thereof. For people who think the distinction between synthetic and natural folate is likely to be important (not me) the labels could make this clear.

[phred]

I am a man. I think it very unlikely I will get pregnant and have a child with spina bifida! ergo I don't expect to be medicated by the food nazi's. Eating 11 slices of bread per day to save ourselves from a fairly rare birth defect will definitely create plenty of work for Doctors resolving our ever increasing obesity proble - 11 slices fer phuk sake.
I say send very annoying and rude emails to the Minster for Health explaining in simple terms that she do her job properly. Going on national TV and saying she don't agree - it was all labours fault but she ain't doing squat about it deserves a poke.

[mister.koz]

I think the (emotively labeled - good point Badjelly) mass medication is bad across all counts, iodised salt is easy, buy non-iodised salt but fluoride in everyones's water and folate in all bread sold in new zealand takes away the choice.

Its the lack of choice thats the issue i reckon.

There's lots of anti-fluoride zealots around who claim that fluoride causes cancer (so does bloody everything these days) and will bring on satan and the 4 horsemen.

There's arguments and evidence for both sides of all arguments but the decision to medicate an entire country without the option of opting out is demented to me... everyone should get the choice to take medication or not.

[Genestho]

That's only part of the problem. The fertilizers commonly used in conventional farming address pretty much only the 'macro elements' (i.e. N,P,K, magnesium, sulphur, calcium) with the micro (trace) elements being largely ignored. As the macro's are replaced the trace elements often run down over time resulting in crops and pastures that are deficient in these essential substances which in turn fails to provide the elements to the livestock and us. So then the food, which is further robbed of nutrients during processing, requires additives to make up for these shortfalls or we purchase those same missing nutrients as highly priced supplements from the chemist/health store or get wise/worried and purchase organic.

And this hit or miss way of balancing our nutritional needs can be blamed for far more of our declining health levels (and rising obesity) than authorities will admit, or are even aware of. .

Thanks for the technofunky version Naki!:Punk: and I was interested in this part of the picture. !

[Genestho]

OK, T. G. W., I agree with you & pretty much every commenter on this issue that "mass medication" is a bad thing. (It is an irritatingly emotive phrase, but apparently quite effective.) But if mass medication is bad, why do we have iodide in the salt and fluoride in the water. Someone, I think Mom, said they're not comparable. I'm buggered if I can see why. People who think they need more iodide or fluoride can take tablets or use fluoridated toothpaste. Why should I run the risk of the harm that iodide or fluoride can do to me for their benefit? There's no risk, someone says? You can't prove that. Lack of risk can never be proved. Demanding that it be proved is a good way of arguing against anything.

OK, so salt is normally iodised to protect people from goitre. (Does anyone know if this is a legal requirement?) But you can buy non-iodised salt.

So how about allowing folate to be added to bread, with mandatory labelling thereof. For people who think the distinction between synthetic and natural folate is likely to be important (not me) the labels could make this clear.

Yea, I think you raised a good point here, that we can buy Non-iodised salt.

I just CHOOSE not to buy this bread and/or flour for my kids. I know we eat healthy!
I agree with Mr.Koz, because there are always arguments - no matter how you look at things, but this is my point.

I don't want to be told I have no choice.

But, if YOU want to buy this bread, and you believe it's a good addition to your diet, then I don't see why you shouldn't!
Everybodies happy? Right?

[Ixion]

.. So how about allowing folate to be added to bread, with mandatory labelling thereof. For people who think the distinction between synthetic and natural folate is likely to be important (not me) the labels could make this clear.

Fair enough. if I can go into the shop and buy non-foliated bread, I've no problem with you going in and buying a foliated version

Dissension is because the gubbmint does not allow that. I *Have* to buy the foliated stuff

[davereid]

Fair enough. if I can go into the shop and buy non-foliated bread, I've no problem with you going in and buying a foliated version

Yeah, maybe the governments "out" will be to say "if you make foliated bread it must meet the aussie rules for foliated bread".

Rather than if you make bread it must meet the aussie rules for foliated bread.

[Mom]

But if mass medication is bad, why do we have iodide in the salt and fluoride in the water. Someone, I think Mom, said they're not comparable. I'm buggered if I can see why.

Correct, it was me. I think there is a difference for a couple of reasons.

I drink water, a reasonably healthy amount a day, and I brush my teeth 2 or 3 times a day. My water is not fluoride contaminated, but there is some in my toothpaste. I dont eat toothpaste. Little children drink water, a reasonable amount of it (well mine did, we did not do the juice thing) and they eat toothpaste too, try as you might to stop them. How much are they actually ingesting? I have no idea, and that is why I think it is a bad idea. It is not measurable.

I gave my kids fluoride tablets, I knew how much they were taking.

As far as iodised salt goes, exactly how much salt do you eat daily? You could not eat enough salt to be poisoned by the iodine, the salt would get you first :yes:


I think the (emotively labeled - good point Badjelly) mass medication is bad across all counts, iodised salt is easy, buy non-iodised salt but fluoride in everyones's water and folate in all bread sold in new zealand takes away the choice.

Its the lack of choice thats the issue i reckon.

...everyone should get the choice to take medication or not.


And therein lies the whole reason for my thread, we should be able to choose.

Emotive way to put a subject I agree :innocent:

[nosebleed]

You know I cringe every time I read 'flouride tablets'.
Was force-fed those fuckers as a kid, we hated them, taste and texture of chalk.

Grew up in Morrinsville (don't know about the water treatment there/then, was only concerned about riding bikes and climbing trees) then we moved over to Waiheke, definately tank water (know that because a huge concrete water tank is hard to miss even for a kid) didn't know of any other kids getting them - unfortunatley(?) dad is 'in the trade' so there was no escape.

[Usarka]

Flacid acid gets destroyed by the cooking process anyways. Dumb labour bean lickers.

[speedpro]

Did you know:
1) More than 98 percent of convicted criminals are bread eaters!
2) Exactly half of all children who grow up in bread - eating households score in the bottom 50% on standardized IQ tests!
3) In the 19th century, when virtually all bread was baked in the home, the average life expectancy was less than 55 years; infant mortality rates were unacceptably high; many women died in childbirth; and diseases such as typhoid, scarlet fever, smallpox and influenza ravaged entire nations!
4) Statistics show that more than 75 % of violent crimes are committed within 24 hours of eating bread!
5) Bread is made from a substance called "dough." Researchers have proven that as little as one pound of dough can choke a large animal like a horse. The average person eats more bread than that in one month!
6) Bread is known to be extremely addictive. Subjects deprived of bread and given only water actually begged for bread after just two days!
7) Bread is a "gateway" food item, which usually leads to such items as butter, jam, peanut butter and even ... bacon !
8) Bread has been proven to kill. Scientists have now uncovered alarming evidence that 100% of the people who eat bread will eventually die!
9) Unattended newborn babies can choke on bread!
10) Bread is baked at temperatures as high as 425 degrees Fahrenheit! Don't laugh...that kind of heat can kill a full grown adult in less than five minutes.
11) 96 % of cancer victims eventually admit that they've eaten bread!


12) Sadly, 9 out of 10 bread eaters are unable to distinguish between significant scientific fact and meaningless statistical babbling.


Obviously bread should be R18 and restricted as per cigarettes or alcohol.

[Brownstoo]

Seriously? I mean for real? How is that even fucking legal?
Fuck it I'm going back to the third world. At least there's choice there!
Or I'll just stop eating bread... Plenty of other food out there!


But if mass medication is bad, why do we have iodide in the salt and fluoride in the water. Someone, I think Mom, said they're not comparable. I'm buggered if I can see why

Iodide is because people had big fuckoff goiters growing on their necks without it
flouride is for shiny teeth!

[jono035]

Or I'll just stop eating bread... Plenty of other food out there!

First they came for the Bread and I did not speak up, because I did not eat Bread....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

[Ixion]

Hey, is pasta going to be dosed? Presumably not, since we are not going down the Oz route of dosing the flour. I'm turning Pastafarian.

[Rodney007]

relax guys, just make your own bread FFS,

[Shadows]

It will actually be added to the ingredients by the ingredient manufacturer


Not workable. It would need to be added by the baker.

Different doughs require different ratios of ingredients - therefore all ingredients in the market, irrespective of supplier, that could ever be used to make a loaf of bread would need to be fortified by the same percentage for your scenario to work in a land where they state 11 slices of bread contains the correct "dose".

I can't see that happening!

[Forest]

Not workable. It would need to be added by the baker.

Different doughs require different ratios of ingredients - therefore all ingredients in the market, irrespective of supplier, that could ever be used to make a loaf of bread would need to be fortified by the same percentage for your scenario to work in a land where they state 11 slices of bread contains the correct "dose".

I can't see that happening!

There is no "dose". The folate in the bread will supplement the folate that you are already ingesting from other sources.

[jono035]

Not workable. It would need to be added by the baker.

Different doughs require different ratios of ingredients - therefore all ingredients in the market, irrespective of supplier, that could ever be used to make a loaf of bread would need to be fortified by the same percentage for your scenario to work in a land where they state 11 slices of bread contains the correct "dose".

I can't see that happening!

Every baker they've talked to is stating that the dosages will vary wildly already and someone earlier said that they put it in flour already in Aus.

Besides, what you're talking about is LOGICAL, therefore the government will automatically be scared of it and do the opposite :D


Hey, is pasta going to be dosed? Presumably not, since we are not going down the Oz route of dosing the flour. I'm turning Pastafarian.

Then they came for our Pasta and I did not speak up because I did not eat Pasta...

[Rodney007]

they will just increase the current FOLATE added to water,

they wont make you eat 11 slices of bread a day.

they say this stuff to give the media a boost when its lacking,

and to bringout the SCIENTISTS and dietician's all over the NET,

and from what i'v read theres a SHIT LOAD on this forum,

[AD345]

Not workable. It would need to be added by the baker.

Different doughs require different ratios of ingredients - therefore all ingredients in the market, irrespective of supplier, that could ever be used to make a loaf of bread would need to be fortified by the same percentage for your scenario to work in a land where they state 11 slices of bread contains the correct "dose".

I can't see that happening!

Sorry mate but thats what is going to happen. Folic acid will be added to the improver by the ingredients manufacturer. It will not be a separate additive - at least as far as the two main bread manufacturers go.

I know this from 23 years in the industry and being part of the planning for this change

[Ixion]

Not workable. It would need to be added by the baker.

Different doughs require different ratios of ingredients - therefore all ingredients in the market, irrespective of supplier, that could ever be used to make a loaf of bread would need to be fortified by the same percentage for your scenario to work in a land where they state 11 slices of bread contains the correct "dose".

I can't see that happening!

I don't think it would work like that

The ingredient premix used by large bakers is added to a batch of bread on the basis of X amount of ingredient mix per Y kilo of dough (or per mixing bowl full). So , since a kilo of premix will make a known weight of bread, it would be simple to calculate the amount of folate needed to be added to the premix. The bakers would only need to adjust the amount of ingredient mix added to allow for the extra weight of folate.

This would be a fairly accurate measure.

But small boutique bakeries making bread "by eye" , the amount would be more likely to be "a handful and two large pinches". All over the place.

[AD345]

I don't think it would work like that

The ingredient premix used by large bakers is added to a batch of bread on the basis of X amount of ingredient mix per Y kilo of dough (or per mixing bowl full). So , since a kilo of premix will make a known weight of bread, it would be simple to calculate the amount of folate needed to be added to the premix. The bakers would only need to adjust the amount of ingredient mix added to allow for the extra weight of folate.

This would be a fairly accurate measure.

But small boutique bakeries making bread "by eye" , the amount would be more likely to be "a handful and two large pinches". All over the place.

Ingredients are actually added as a percentage of total cereal weight but your logic is sound.

[Skyryder]

All it is, is Vitamin B9.



What's the problem?




Skyryder

[MSTRS]

All it is, is Vitamin B9.
What's the problem?


The problem is lack of choice.
If I get 'enough' by eating spinach for example, why should I be put in the position of having to choose whether I eat more because it's added to the bread I'm supplied. If I don't get enough from the rest of my diet, I'm not going to get enough from the bread I do eat.
How many of us decided we'd had enough of Socialists telling us what was good for us? Yet their cunning manoeuvrings are still working their insidious poison on each and every one of us.

[Usarka]

All it is, is Vitamin B9.



What's the problem?



Some people already get enough.
Some people are on general vit b supplements and don't want a higher dose.
Some want to get their vitamins naturally.
Some girls do
Some girls don't

[Mom]

Open the paper this morning and what do you know? The government have ditched plans to put folic acid in bread!

Seems they want more time to assess the evidence surrounding this issue. Cabinet will formalise the decision tomorrow and it will go away for 3 years.

Apparently "a trip to the baker, should not be a trip to the chemist"

:clap:

[yungatart]

Are you saying that sanity prevails? In NZ?
How very odd....

[ynot slow]

Are you saying that sanity prevails? In NZ?
How very odd....

Amazing eh,the Minister for Food Safety realised the additives weren't safe,doh.Apparently Aussie couldn't care if we're with them or not,contrary to what the minister said,bullshitting bitch.Seems get Big Johnny on to it and common sense prevails,bet the meeting he had with the (ex)minister(shows she is stupid)was fun,mind you if he dumps her who will get the job.Why can't these idiots use common nous.

[Qkkid]

Open the paper this morning and what do you know? The government have ditched plans to put folic acid in bread!

Seems they want more time to assess the evidence surrounding this issue. Cabinet will formalise the decision tomorrow and it will go away for 3 years.

Apparently "a trip to the baker, should not be a trip to the chemist"

:clap:

:clap:Bear in mind this is gonna cost us a couple of $100,000 to investigate it :rolleyes:

[mossy1200]

If it was a trade deal then what had we planned to exchange for dangerous bread additive?
In the old days you used to be able to give Australia your criminals.
That still sounds like a good plan to me.

[Okey Dokey]

HOORAY!!

10 char

[Naki Rat]

I suspect the unmissable discontent of the electorate might have had more than a bit to do with this decision. Well done all :clap:

What's next then?

[Genestho]

Oh thankgoodness! :clap:

[peasea]

Amazing eh,the Minister for Food Safety realised the additives weren't safe,doh.Apparently Aussie couldn't care if we're with them or not,contrary to what the minister said,bullshitting bitch.Seems get Big Johnny on to it and common sense prevails,bet the meeting he had with the (ex)minister(shows she is stupid)was fun,mind you if he dumps her who will get the job.Why can't these idiots use common nous.

Because they don't have any. Where do they work?

[Skyryder]

The problem is lack of choice.
If I get 'enough' by eating spinach for example, why should I be put in the position of having to choose whether I eat more because it's added to the bread I'm supplied. If I don't get enough from the rest of my diet, I'm not going to get enough from the bread I do eat.
How many of us decided we'd had enough of Socialists telling us what was good for us? Yet their cunning manoeuvrings are still working their insidious poison on each and every one of us.




As to the lack of choice.
That's not entirely true.
Vitamin B9 was not going to be added to organic bread.



Don't see much opposition to these.

http://www.traditionaloven.com/articles/122/dangerous-food-additives-to-avoid


So why are these not banned too.



Oh don't tell me these were not bought in by the evil socialists.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

If it was a trade deal then what had we planned to exchange for dangerous bread additive?
In the old days you used to be able to give Australia your criminals.
That still sounds like a good plan to me.


Dangerous bread additive my arse.


http://www.lifeclinic.com/focus/nutrition/articleView.asp?MessageID=1909


Skyryder

[Mom]

Oh don't tell me these were not bought in by the evil socialists.

Who the hell am I to argue your lofty position on this subject.

I have no idea when these additives were approved, nor added to our food. I do know however, that my kids almost never ate them. They do not feature on my agenda. Though to be fair here, I did feed my kids some of these more interesting additives from time to time. My experience of the fall out from doing so, led me very quickly to confining treats for my kids to ones I made myself, or the very ocassional store bought treat.

Look, all you have to do is eat a well thought out diet, and you will get the ordinary daily requirement for folates. Shit it is not rocket science. I grow silverbeet, and I actually have been known to buy spinach. When I was pregnant and trying to make babies I took a supplement prescribed to make damn sure I got what I needed.

The addition of the additives you are talking about has nothing to do with a decision to mass medicate the populace at all.

Thank goddness for common sense is all I can say.

[Hitcher]

Thank goddness for common sense is all I can say.

Your goddness probably knows that common sense is surprisingly uncommon.

[Mom]

Your goddness probably knows that common sense is surprisingly uncommon.

What can say :rolleyes:

[AD345]

http://www.traditionaloven.com/articles/122/dangerous-food-additives-to-avoid



Skyryder

Good grief thats a dodgy website:

nasty food additives


Any dangerous additives......should be listed.....as“Nasty Additives“


..many believe the product might still contain...


and thats in the first 3 paragraphs.

Emotive, anecdotal and biased are the first 3 words that spring to mind. I don't think I would be making any decisions based on info from there

[jono035]

Emotive, anecdotal and biased are the first 3 words that spring to mind. I don't think I would be making any decisions based on info from there

Yeah, the tinfoil-hat brigade really don't do any favours for the causes they support. The trick is to present information in a fair and un-biased way while avoiding looking like a complete and utter raving lunatic.

[Skyryder]

Good grief thats a dodgy website:






and thats in the first 3 paragraphs.

Emotive, anecdotal and biased are the first 3 words that spring to mind. I don't think I would be making any decisions based on info from there

The point I'm making is that there is a shitload of chemicals in our food that no one takes any notice of but as soon as someone ( the bakers association) gets up and jumps about adding a vitimin the public goes all ape shit about it.

After all adding vitimin B9 is nothing more than replacing what is lost through processing.

Skyryder

[AD345]

The point I'm making is that there is a shitload of chemicals in our food that no one takes any notice of but as soon as someone ( the bakers association) gets up and jumps about adding a vitimin the public goes all ape shit about it.

After all adding vitimin B9 is nothing more than replacing what is lost through processing.

Skyryder

H2O is a "chemical" as well.

The "bakers association" was only concerned that once people (consumers) realised that folic acid was being forced upon them in a dodgy attempt to address poor choices by a minority of the population they (the consumers) would very likely start reducing their bread consumption and thus the bakers income. Call it enlightened self interest.

Folate is not "lost through processing" as it is not present in most usual bread ingredients. The amount of folate naturally present in yeast is minscule

[Ixion]

I don't actually think that , in NZ, there is a "shitload of chemicals" in bread. Some things, yes.

But bread , in NZ , (yes, other countries are another matter) bread is pretty honest. Perhaps rather too much taken *out* of it, but that's another matter.

Which is why adding stuff to it , no matter how well intended, would be a BadThing. Precedents and such like.

Those of us who try to avoid the "some things" that do ahve "a shitload of chemicals " added to them would be upset to ahve to add bread to their avoidance list.

[jono035]

The point I'm making is that there is a shitload of chemicals in our food that no one takes any notice of but as soon as someone ( the bakers association) gets up and jumps about adding a vitimin the public goes all ape shit about it.

After all adding vitimin B9 is nothing more than replacing what is lost through processing.

Skyryder

It doesn't matter what it's called or what it is really, it matters what the effects are.

Bottom line: Someone somewhere has found that excesses of substance X increase your risk of prostate cancer. Goverment wants to put substance X in food. People don't like not being given a choice when it comes to their health (admittedly a good 80% of people probably make bad decisions, but the decisions are theirs to make.).

[Forest]

Folate is not "lost through processing" as it is not present in most usual bread ingredients. The amount of folate naturally present in yeast is minscule

Actually that's not true. Yeast is relatively high in folate.

According to the following USDA table, there's 164ug of folate in a 7g packet of yeast.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR18/nutrlist/sr18w435.pdf

[MSTRS]

As to the lack of choice.
That's not entirely true.
Vitamin B9 was not going to be added to organic bread.



I'm glad it's a moot point now, but why should I have been forced to pay moonbeams for a loaf of bread, bake my own, or ingest more B9 than may be good for me...just cos someone decided that bread was a good medium to get a particular vitamin into someone/s who are too thick/lazy to do it for themselves?

[Pixie]

All that they were asking was that 4.5 million people be medicated to prevent <40 veges being born a year!

Won't someone think of the children?

Even the vege ones?

[Naki Rat]

I'm glad it's a moot point now, but why should I have been forced to pay moonbeams for a loaf of bread, bake my own, or ingest more B9 than may be good for me...just cos someone decided that bread was a good medium to get a particular vitamin into someone/s who are too thick/lazy to do it for themselves?

Still preferable (and cheaper in the long term) to pay the premium for organic products than to pay indirectly via health and environmental problems by consuming the apparently 'cheaper' conventionally produced equivalents.

The movie FoodMatters (http://www.foodmatters.tv/) explains the background to this situation admirably. Also available from your local health supplements store :corn:

[Forest]

Still preferable (and cheaper in the long term) to pay the premium for organic products than to pay indirectly via health and environmental problems by consuming the apparently 'cheaper' conventionally produced equivalents.

The movie FoodMatters (http://www.foodmatters.tv/) explains the background to this situation admirably. Also available from your local health supplements store :corn:

Organic products are a crock of shit. Literally!

If the growers aren't allowed to use chemical fertilisers, then what do you think they use instead...

[Naki Rat]

Organic products are a crock of shit. Literally!

If the growers aren't allowed to use chemical fertilisers, then what do you think they use instead...

Soil for the most part, replenished with non-soluble mineral fertilizers as required often via a hot composting system which cooks pathogenic organisms present in compost ingredients.

[martybabe]

Well it seems like it's not going to happen now, at least not in the near future, maybe through the back door later on when we've all forgotten about it.

Through negotiation/pressure whatever, plans have been shelved to add Folic acid to bread and I'm pretty pleased with that but what still rankles is the position that the government took in the Q and A Program and subsequently. That being, that they could not be seen to be breaking the law and the agreement made with the Oz government, irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the chemical ingredient they were told to put into bread.

The science is light for proof of any harmful effects form adding Folic acid is what was repeated ad nauseum but they gave me the distinct impression that even if the science had been (Heavy) read arsenic, they would have been powerless to do anything about it, WTF, how about NZ people may be at risk from this supplement, Just Don't do it!.

I know that's a simplistic view and that, in their opinion, other trade agreements with OZ may have been put at risk but it's still a no brainer, kiwis health versus a possible loss of export benefits, pffft!

[Skyryder]

I'm glad it's a moot point now, but why should I have been forced to pay moonbeams for a loaf of bread, bake my own, or ingest more B9 than may be good for me...just cos someone decided that bread was a good medium to get a particular vitamin into someone/s who are too thick/lazy to do it for themselves?



It's an interesting point that can be argued on many levels. One of these is why sholuld I fail a WOF if I do not have seat belts. These after all do not endager or improve the roadworthyness of the vehicle.

Some times we have to pay extra for the common good. Installing seat belts was one of them that my generation had to pay.


Skyryder

[MSTRS]

It's an interesting point that can be argued on many levels. One of these is why sholuld I fail a WOF if I do not have seat belts. These after all do not endager or improve the roadworthyness of the vehicle.

Some times we have to pay extra for the common good. Installing seat belts was one of them that my generation had to pay.


Skyryder

Bad analogy. We 'may' have paid extra way back when, but not anymore. Besides, where are the down points in using seatbelts? And we still have the choice whether to put them on. Fines not withstanding.
Better to compare, say, being told we must fit snow tyres cos it might snow, and we may not bother putting them on voluntarily. For the occasional individual, this would turn out to be a good move, but the rest of us are riding around on something un-necessary that may in fact be dangerous.

[Skyryder]

Bad analogy. We 'may' have paid extra way back when, but not anymore. Besides, where are the down points in using seatbelts? And we still have the choice whether to put them on. Fines not withstanding.
Better to compare, say, being told we must fit snow tyres cos it might snow, and we may not bother putting them on voluntarily. For the occasional individual, this would turn out to be a good move, but the rest of us are riding around on something un-necessary that may in fact be dangerous.

Nothing wrong with the analogy. I am not aware of any down side of useing them. That is not the issue.


But since you do bring this up.

Mr Key's chief scientific adviser, Professor Peter Gluckman, last night agreed that many cases of neural tube defects were aborted or stillborn.

And he dismissed any link between folic acid intake at the levels proposed and increased rates of cancer.

from
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10585506





Skyryder

[MSTRS]

For every expert wheeled out to say THIS, there's another expert that can be wheeled out to say THAT.
Can't argue with the fact that not many of us are comfortable with having something put in a staple food, just because some of the populace don't partake of a balanced diet, which in some cases causes a serious birth defect. And nowhere has it been said that such serious birth defects are totally avoidable by 'adequate' intake of B9...

[AD345]

.

The movie FoodMatters (http://www.foodmatters.tv/) explains the background to this situation admirably. Also available from your local health supplements store :corn:

That DVD is based on the US food chain which is so far removed from ours as to make any comparison nonsensical

[Naki Rat]

That DVD is based on the US food chain which is so far removed from ours as to make any comparison nonsensical

I guess you haven't seen the DVD as the dietary shortfalls, nutritional choices and health repercussions are very much applicable to New Zealand. Like North America our diet is heavily based on refined carbohydrates, excessive sugar, conventionally (chemically) farmed produce and we have a drug based health system that is almost oblivious to the importance of diet to our everyday health.

[jono035]

The seatbelt one is a bit iffy. In the case of paying money/time for the common good then fine, but if it's improving health in some circumstances vs impairing health in others, then it is a much finer line...

And the fact that experts are even arguing about it means that it should be treated with more caution than originally anticipated.

[Mom]

... the fact that experts are even arguing about it means that it should be treated with more caution than originally anticipated.

Hallelujah brother!

[ralph4alice]

I say Bull shit! Educate yourself. I will not buy fortified anything. Eat a healthy, balanced diet and to hell with the health police that insist, nay, legislate and force upon us drugs that most of us dont need.

Vitamin enriched be buggered, give me good old fashioned healty food thanks.

OMG there are still heaps of sane people in this world!
=== Amen to that! ===


A couple of questions/points I'd have:

- it is NOT the job of the food industry to medicate like this, that's the job of a) the medical profession; b) me, by way of self-awareness and education! Why not fortify bread with, say, flouride? I mean after all, that's safe, and good for teeth, right? Or perhaps omega-3 fats - they're all the buzz nowdays...? What about vitamin D - it's implicated in reducing cancer rates...? Thin end of the wedge!

- where do they source the folate from? Natural sources? Or a lab somewhere? I think I'd prefer the former.

- isn't it stupid that we refine the life out of our food... and then end up having to put all the nutrients back into it? Can't we work out ways not to wreck our food FFS?

- it's only a small effort to become familiar with the typical additives to avoid, and then it's real easy and quick to spot stuff! OK, there's heaps of ways to get toxins into your body, but why add to it? And if you don't like all that sheit, why send the implicit message that you do by buying the stuff?

OK rant over. Work tomorrow.... better f-off to bed!
:-)

[ralph4alice]

Actually, sorry I will have to quote you again. Yes, I do actually know what is in the food I eat. I recently have had to start taking medication to control high blood pressure, seems you can't avoid a family gene after all. Anyway, needless to say I have come under the microscope of the medicos.

I have never watched my diet, I detest low fat food, in fact I will not buy it! I eat what I want, when I want! Butter is simply the best thing to fry something in, if you are frying something. I also cook! I mean cook. You know, really cook, from scratch cooking. No (or almost none) pre-prepared anything. If is high fat, I will buy it! I am not fat, neither are any of my kids.

You rock! Same here: love cream on my (one) weetbix, in my coffee, etc...



I had my cholesterol checked. You think I should be worried? Nope, not a jot. Apaprently, even though I dont give a shit about the fat content of my diet I am only just marginally over normal. Even my doctor says I dont have to worry.

Food police can piss off as far as I am concerned. :sunny:

Shit, I seem to have blown another gasket :o

I've got a contribution to this whole fat thingy....

We had a Biggest Loser Contest at work in January (ie: lose weight, winner takes the entry fee pool). I thought "sounds good, should motivate me". Well, I lost 17 kgs from Jan 12 to May/June (13 kgs to end of March, then a few more - but put on a couple again due to comfort eating in this cold Wellington weather LOL).

Anyway, here's how.... I ate less. That's it. No fanfare, no low-fat bullshit, no weird diets, no starvation... just eat less. Eat until I'm "not hungry", NEVER until I feel "full". I paid attention to having less carbs, a bit more protein, more fruit and veg, and the same or possibly a bit more fatty/oily stuff. Realised that I was just being greedy and eating too much! Love my food, but being greedy is NOT the way to go.

Very interested in your comments about cholesterol in light of your fat consumption. There's plenty of debate about what contribution, if any, food itself makes to a person's cholesterol. Also seems to be debate about the correctness of avoiding all fats - especially saturated fats - like the western world has been for the last few decades.

A year or two ago (when I was heavier...) I had my total cholesterol checked. It was fine, no problems whatsoever. And that's with a diet where I eat whatever amount of fat I liked, with no regard for "lite" or "low-fat" versions of stuff.

I suggest visting Harvard School of Public Health at http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/ . Would be interested in what you think! Here's a couple of interesting articles to whet your appetite:


"The Nutrition Source / Healthy Eating Pyramid"
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/pyramid/index.html

"Fats and Cholesterol: Out with the Bad, In with the Good"
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/fats-full-story/index.html


=== Hope this information helps someone out there! ===



Excerpts:

"The Nutrition Source / Healthy Eating Pyramid"


Use a food pyramid that’s actually based on the latest and best science.

Introduction

We can’t look at a pyramid these days without thinking of food and healthy eating. There was the U.S. government’s Food Guide Pyramid, followed by its replacement, My Pyramid, which was basically the same thing, just pitched on its side. The problem was that these efforts, while generally good intentioned, have been quite flawed at actually showing people what makes up a healthy diet. Why? Their recommendations have often been based on out-of-date science and influenced by people with business interests in their messages.

But, there’s a better alternative: the Healthy Eating Pyramid, built by the faculty in the Department of Nutrition at the Harvard School of Public Health. Based on the latest science, and unaffected by businesses and organizations with a stake in its messages, the Health Eating Pyramid is a simple, trustworthy guide to choosing a healthy diet. Its foundation is daily exercise and weight control, since these two related elements strongly influence your chances of staying healthy. The Healthy Eating Pyramid builds from there, showing that you should eat more foods from the bottom part of the pyramid (vegetables, whole grains) and less from the top (red meat, refined grains, sugary drinks).

....
under "Read more about...":

Healthy Fats and Oils

Surprised that the Healthy Eating Pyramid puts some fats near the base, indicating they are okay to eat? Although this recommendation seems to go against conventional wisdom, it's exactly in line with the evidence and with common eating habits. The average American gets one-third or more of his or her daily calories from fats, so placing them near the foundation of the pyramid makes sense. Note, though, that it specifically mentions healthy fats and oils, not all types of fat. Good sources of healthy unsaturated fats include olive, canola, soy, corn, sunflower, peanut, and other vegetable oils, trans fat-free margarines, nuts, seeds, avocadoes, and fatty fish such as salmon. These healthy fats not only improve cholesterol levels (when eaten in place of highly processed carbohydrates) but can also protect the heart from sudden and potentially deadly rhythm problems.


"Fats and Cholesterol: Out with the Bad, In with the Good"


Introduction

"Eat a low-fat, low-cholesterol diet" has been the mantra for healthful eating for decades. Touted as a way to lose weight and prevent or control heart disease and other chronic conditions, millions of people have followed (or, more likely, have tried to follow) this advice. Seeing a tremendous marketing opportunity, food companies re-engineered thousands of foods to be lower in fat or fat free. The low-fat approach to eating may have made a difference for the occasional individual, but as a nation it hasn't helped us control weight or become healthier. In the 1960s, fats and oils supplied Americans with about 45 percent of their calories; (1) about 13 percent of us were obese and under 1 percent had type 2 diabetes, a serious weight-related condition. (2, 3) Today, Americans take in less fat, getting about 33 percent of calories from fats and oils; (1) yet 34 percent of us are obese and 8 percent have diabetes, most with type 2 diabetes. (4, 5)

Why hasn't cutting fat from the diet paid off as expected? Detailed research—much of it done at Harvard—shows that the total amount of fat in the diet isn't really linked with weight or disease. (6-9) What really matters is the type of fat in the diet. Bad fats, meaning trans and saturated fats, increase the risk for certain diseases. Good fats, meaning monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats, do just the opposite. They are good for the heart and most other parts of the body.

What about cholesterol in food? For most people, the mix of fats in the diet influences cholesterol in the bloodstream far more than cholesterol in food does.

[Forest]

- where do they source the folate from? Natural sources? Or a lab somewhere? I think I'd prefer the former.


Why would you prefer natural sources to lab sources?

Labs processes produce cleaner and more consistent products.

[Naki Rat]

Why would you prefer natural sources to lab sources?

Labs processes produce cleaner and more consistent products.

To my knowledge there isn't a natural equivalent to human error. Mother nature has had a lot longer time to get things perfected, even with humans now doing their best to fcuk it up :bash:

[MSTRS]

Why would you prefer natural sources to lab sources?

Labs processes produce cleaner and more consistent products.


To my knowledge there isn't a natural equivalent to human error. Mother nature has had a lot longer time to get things perfected, even with humans now doing their best to fcuk it up :bash:

The other thing is that so often, for us to be able to utilise this vitamin/mineral, we have to have some of that vitamin/mineral. Nature has a strange way of providing that formula, as long as one eats a varied/balanced diet.

[davereid]

A single kiwifruit contains 38mg of folate. Thats all it takes to get the RDI. The women suffering this problem are simply not eating enough greens.

The answer ? Stuff artificial vitamins in bread ?

Hardly !

[Badjelly]

And the fact that experts are even arguing about it means that it should be treated with more caution than originally anticipated.


Hallelujah brother!

That's a cop-out.

[Badjelly]

To my knowledge there isn't a natural equivalent to human error. Mother nature has had a lot longer time to get things perfected, even with humans now doing their best to fcuk it up :bash:

You think Mother Nature works to perfect the world for human beings? :gob:

[Naki Rat]

You think Mother Nature works to perfect the world for human beings? :gob:

We're one of millions of different lifeforms on this planet. Why would she be doing it just for us? :rolleyes:

[Badjelly]

You think Mother Nature works to perfect the world for human beings? :gob:


We're one of millions of different lifeforms on this planet. Why would she be doing it just for us? :rolleyes:

Exactly. So why should the balance of nutrients in any particular food be perfect for us? Some of the foods we eat (e.g. most fruit) are produced by organisms that want(*) us to eat them, some (e.g. most vegetables) are produced by organisms that don't want us to eat them, some (e.g. meat) are produced by animals that run away and have to be caught before we can eat them. We're omnivores and eat a range of foods, seeking out the ones that have things we need and avoiding or treating the poisonous ones. Our ancestors have got by for the last few billion years, except for the ones that didn't. Where does the idea of natural = good come out of that?

(*) I'm using the word "want" very loosely here, obviously. Natural selection leads plants to produce edible fruit to spread their seeds.

Example: willow bark contains a compound called salicylic acid that relieves pain when consumed by humans. Unfortunately it hurts your stomach, so a scientist whose name I've forgotten developed a form called acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin) that's somewhat easier on your stomach. Some people think willow bark is better than aspirin because it's natural. Perhaps they think willow trees produce salicyclic acid for the benefit of humans and it's been perfected for that purpose. I don't. I think it's an accident, that there's no reason to expect the natural form to be better and good reason to believe it's worse and I prefer the synthetic form.

[Naki Rat]

Exactly. So why should the balance of nutrients in any particular food be perfect for us? Some of the foods we eat (e.g. most fruit) are produced by organisms that want(*) us to eat them, some (e.g. most vegetables) are produced by organisms that don't want us to eat them, some (e.g. meat) are produced by animals that run away and have to be caught before we can eat them. We're omnivores and eat a range of foods, seeking out the ones that have things we need and avoiding or treating the poisonous ones. Our ancestors have got by for the last few billion years, except for the ones that didn't. Where does the idea of natural = good come out of that?

(*) I'm using the word "want" very loosely here, obviously. Natural selection leads plants to produce edible fruit to spread their seeds.

Example: willow bark contains a compound called salicylic acid that relieves pain when consumed by humans. Unfortunately it hurts your stomach, so a scientist whose name I've forgotten developed a form called acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin) that's somewhat easier on your stomach. Some people think willow bark is better than aspirin because it's natural. Perhaps they think willow trees produce salicyclic acid for the benefit of humans and it's been perfected for that purpose. I don't. I think it's an accident, that there's no reason to expect the natural form to be better and good reason to believe it's worse and I prefer the synthetic form.

Humans have developed the intelligence to pick and choose what foods do or don't suit their diet, as well as developing techniques to catch, harvest, modify (e.g. cook) and farm those foods. Unfortunately we are now the dominant, and massively overrepresented, species on earth so are putting unsustainable pressures on its resources including food. In order to feed our ever increasing population we are impinging on food sources previously consumed by other species. This is resulting in us increasingly causing imbalances in natural processes ranging from animal species extinction to mutations of microorganisms many of which are through ignorance of the complexity of the systems we are influencing.

That same ignorance in a species would usually result in the decline or extinction of that species but our domination of natural processes is currently allowing us to override such natural checks and balances, so far....

Nature, or life, on Earth will continue long after our species has finished its brief existence here. The only question there is to what degree we stuff up the environment that remains before we reach our expiry date.

[MSTRS]

...us increasingly causing imbalances ....mutations ... through ignorance of the complexity of the systems we are influencing.



And this is why lots of us don't trust chemically produced food additives

[Badjelly]

And this is why lots of us don't trust chemically produced food additives

OK. So in the context of the present discussion (which I agree has largely run its course) the folate that is added to bread is a chemically produced food additive which is therefore untrustworthy, unlike the folate that occurs naturally in grains. Right?

Do you know how the additive folate is actually made? (I don't, I'm just asking.) Is it actually "chemically produced"? If it were extracted from a natural source would that be less untrustworthy? And if it is synthetic, how is it actually different from the naturally occurring form?

I think you can see where I'm coming from: I am deeply sceptical about this whole natural=good, synthetic=bad business.

[MSTRS]

I'm sure there is a plant (or something) that the ancients used to combat nausea in pregnant women. Scientists came up with....thalidomide.
Perhaps not the same thing, but see where I am going?

[FROSTY]

I can tell ya what I WONT be eating if Im holidaying in Australia.
Ya know what makes me totally 100% piss myself laughing obver this "issue"?
The Gubbiment actually lost the bread companies a fantastic sales tool.

Imagine instead of this bullshit we tried this the other way.

Advert on TV and in the likes of Mother and child magazine.

LOOK NEW WONDER BREAD.
THIS FANTASTIC BREAD IS FORTIFIED WITH FOLIC ACID FOR ALL YOU PREGNANT LADIES OR WOMEN CONCIDERING HAVING A BABY.
ONLY $7.00 A LOAF

[Skyryder]

As from September Iodine is going to be added to bread.

I see the Bakers Association via Katherine Rich have not raised a campaign against that nor has there been a public outcry.

Now I would have thought Rich and the Bakers Association would have raised this with equal vigor along with their opposition to Vitamin B9. But no. Not shred of consistancy in respect of the compulsary addition of iodine to bread. Now I don't have any figures on the amount of iodine that is lacking in the nations diet intake if indeed there is one, but given the assumption that most people use iodised salt I would have thought that the addition of Vitamin B9 as against iodine would be of greater benefit to the 'general' population

It seems to me that the folic acid debate has more to do politics and remember that this was an agreement that Labour set up, than the health of the nation



Skyryder

[Skyryder]

I can tell ya what I WONT be eating if Im holidaying in Australia.
Ya know what makes me totally 100% piss myself laughing obver this "issue"?
The Gubbiment actually lost the bread companies a fantastic sales tool.

Imagine instead of this bullshit we tried this the other way.

Advert on TV and in the likes of Mother and child magazine.

LOOK NEW WONDER BREAD.
THIS FANTASTIC BREAD IS FORTIFIED WITH FOLIC ACID FOR ALL YOU PREGNANT LADIES OR WOMEN CONCIDERING HAVING A BABY.
ONLY $7.00 A LOAF


Ya need to post those thoughts on a bakers website. There is indeed a salepitch there. Good thoughts
Frosty.

[Forest]

It seems to me that the folic acid debate has more to do politics and remember that this was an agreement that Labour set up, than the health of the nation


I completely agree. The entire debate has been conducted and decided on political grounds.

Which is shameful.

[Indiana_Jones]

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-Indy

[Mom]

I can tell ya what I WONT be eating if Im holidaying in Australia.

Watch out for buns, donuts, pizzas, pies etc...if it has flour in it you get folic acid...LOL

[James Deuce]

I can tell ya what I WONT be eating if Im holidaying in Australia.
Ya know what makes me totally 100% piss myself laughing obver this "issue"?
The Gubbiment actually lost the bread companies a fantastic sales tool.

Imagine instead of this bullshit we tried this the other way.

Advert on TV and in the likes of Mother and child magazine.

LOOK NEW WONDER BREAD.
THIS FANTASTIC BREAD IS FORTIFIED WITH FOLIC ACID FOR ALL YOU PREGNANT LADIES OR WOMEN CONCIDERING HAVING A BABY.
ONLY $7.00 A LOAF

Ummm, Burgen already do that.

[Shadows]

As from September Iodine is going to be added to bread.

I see the Bakers Association via Katherine Rich have not raised a campaign against that nor has there been a public outcry.

Now I would have thought Rich and the Bakers Association would have raised this with equal vigor along with their opposition to Vitamin B9. But no. Not shred of consistancy in respect of the compulsary addition of iodine to bread. Now I don't have any figures on the amount of iodine that is lacking in the nations diet intake if indeed there is one, but given the assumption that most people use iodised salt I would have thought that the addition of Vitamin B9 as against iodine would be of greater benefit to the 'general' population

It seems to me that the folic acid debate has more to do politics and remember that this was an agreement that Labour set up, than the health of the nation



Skyryder

The addition of iodine in salt has been proven to reduce the occurrence of goitre, mental retardation, breast cancer, and immunodeficiency in the population for quite some period of time - and unlike synthesised folic acid, everybody needs it in their diet, and it is proven that there are no dangerous side effects from consuming it.

Iodine is not naturally present in the NZ food chain in the amounts required by the human body, I believe this is because NZ soils are deficient in it. Likewise in many other parts of The World.

Therefore, a balanced diet alone will not ensure in this case that one will receive the intake required.

Because of the drive to reduce the salt intake in our diets, and the move many have taken to using plain rock salt (usually in conjunction with wearing sandals, ponchos, and oversize earrings, while hugging trees, letting their legs and armpits get hairy, saving the whales, etc, etc), the potential for a population plagued by the effects of iodine deficiency has returned.

Hence the bread alternative. I guess it would only mean changing from using plain salt to iodised salt where the recipes call for it so it won't add shitloads of expense to the manufacturing process (read - what we pay for it at the supermarket).

Yes, it is mass medication again - however it isn't at all new and it is, in fact, important that it is done through some delivery method or another.

[Naki Rat]

Watch out for buns, donuts, pizzas, pies etc...if it has flour in it you get folic acid...LOL

And don't forget pasta :nono:

[Skyryder]

The addition of iodine in salt has been proven to reduce the occurrence of goitre, mental retardation, breast cancer, and immunodeficiency in the population for quite some period of time - and unlike synthesised folic acid, everybody needs it in their diet, and it is proven that there are no dangerous side effects from consuming it.

Iodine is not naturally present in the NZ food chain in the amounts required by the human body, I believe this is because NZ soils are deficient in it. Likewise in many other parts of The World.

Therefore, a balanced diet alone will not ensure in this case that one will receive the intake required.

Because of the drive to reduce the salt intake in our diets, and the move many have taken to using plain rock salt (usually in conjunction with wearing sandals, ponchos, and oversize earrings, while hugging trees, letting their legs and armpits get hairy, saving the whales, etc, etc), the potential for a population plagued by the effects of iodine deficiency has returned.

Hence the bread alternative. I guess it would only mean changing from using plain salt to iodised salt where the recipes call for it so it won't add shitloads of expense to the manufacturing process (read - what we pay for it at the supermarket).

Yes, it is mass medication again - however it isn't at all new and it is, in fact, important that it is done through some delivery method or another.

I'm not in disagreement with you but your arguement can equally be used for for the folic acid debate or vice versa.

Where Key and the Nats position begins to unravel is the double standard that they are applying to additives in bread. On one hand they oppose the addition of Vitamin B9 and on the other they approve the compulsary addition of Iodine. But then this typical of Key. Not only does he change his mind but there is no 'consistancy' with the bread that he bakes.


There was some concern in health circles about iodine deficiancy some time back in the eighties and nineties due to the increasing usage of rock salt etc. and as you rightly state this is devoid of iodine unlike the common table salt. I have no reason to believe that this concern no longer exists and I suspect that it does hence the legislative changes for iodised salt to used in bread

I understand that the reason bakers do not use iodised salt is a cost measure. The non iodised' salt is cheaper so I think the cost of bread may go up.


Skyryder

[Shadows]

I'm not in disagreement with you but your arguement can equally be used for for the folic acid debate or vice versa.

Where Key and the Nats position begins to unravel is the double standard that they are applying to additives in bread. On one hand they oppose the addition of Vitamin B9 and on the other they approve the compulsary addition of Iodine. But then this typical of Key. Not only does he change his mind but there is no 'consistancy' with the bread that he bakes.

The point I was making was that the argument can't be used equally in regards both issues.

One scenario
1) Allows for the medication of a small percentage of the population who might need a vitamin because they don't eat well.
2) Ignores the needs those who may not, or will never, require it.
3) Goes ahead even when the experts still cannot agree whether it is safe or not to medicate the entire population with it.
4) Will be ineffective at best in achieving the desired result due to the quantities of bread needing to be consumed every day to meet the RDI.
5) Is a completely new thing.

The other scenario
1) Ensures that the entire population continues to get an essential part of their diet which cannot be guaranteed by any other means than the fortification of a commonly consumed foodstuff.
2) Is proven to be effective in improving the health of the general population.
3) Has already been happening in some form or another for a very long time.



I understand that the reason bakers do not use iodised salt is a cost measure. The non iodised' salt is cheaper so I think the cost of bread may go up.


Salt is so far down the ingredients list I doubt any increase would be for that reason alone.

[jono035]

Salt is so far down the ingredients list I doubt any increase would be for that reason alone.

Yeah, normally something like a teaspoon per loaf? Even buying iodised salt in the plastic canisters from the supermarket it costs around 1 cent per teaspoon so can't be that much worse.

[Skyryder]

The point I was making was that the argument can't be used equally in regards both issues.

One scenario
1) Allows for the medication of a small percentage of the population who might need a vitamin because they don't eat well.
2) Ignores the needs those who may not, or will never, require it.
3) Goes ahead even when the experts still cannot agree whether it is safe or not to medicate the entire population with it.
4) Will be ineffective at best in achieving the desired result due to the quantities of bread needing to be consumed every day to meet the RDI.
5) Is a completely new thing.



1 We all need folic acid or vitamin B9 so the small percentage of the population is incorrect. The most noise that has been coming from those who are pushing this is the for want of a better word ‘the baby industry.’

2 This could equally be argued in respect of iodine as I believe that by far the majority of the population use iodized salt. But you point has been noticed.
3
The most recent study and John Keys scientific advisor hold the view that levels proposed do and will not be a health hazard to the community.

4 Do not have any figures on this (do you?) but was listening to National radio on this subject and someone said that by introducing folic acid to bread will reduce neural defects by 50 percent.

5 So is adding iodine to bread



There was a bit in the Chch Press that said the reason that bakers do not use iodized salt was due to cost. Non iodized salt being cheaper.

We can argue the differences for and against but the simple fact is that Key has made the addition of iodine added to bread by law but refused to do the same for vitamin B9. Call it what you will but to me that is clear case of inconsistency.

Skyryder

[MSTRS]

We can argue the differences for and against but the simple fact is that Key has made the addition of iodine added to bread by law but refused to do the same for vitamin B9. Call it what you will but to me that is clear case of inconsistency.

Skyryder

The problem, though, is that yes, we all need iodine and B9 etc...but due to particular individual's diets, they don't get the recommended sufficiency.
B9 is in all sorts of foods, but iodine is not.
Eat a good balanced range of foods and your B9 needs are addressed.
Iodine has been available as a salt additive for as long as I can remember, without harmful effects. Yet with the 'experts' having campaigned to reduce our salt intake, now we have the situation where iodine is again lacking in our diet.
No inconsistency on Key's part. Just realism.

[Badjelly]

The point I was making was that the argument can't be used equally in regards both issues.

One scenario
1) Allows for the medication of a small percentage of the population who might need a vitamin because they don't eat well.
...
The other scenario
1) Ensures that the entire population continues to get an essential part of their diet which cannot be guaranteed by any other means than the fortification of a commonly consumed foodstuff.
....

Interesting discussion. But, please, if you're going to call B9 supplementation "medication", then use the same term for iodine supplementation.

[Skyryder]

The problem, though, is that yes, we all need iodine and B9 etc...but due to particular individual's diets, they don't get the recommended sufficiency.
B9 is in all sorts of foods, but iodine is not.
Eat a good balanced range of foods and your B9 needs are addressed.
Iodine has been available as a salt additive for as long as I can remember, without harmful effects. Yet with the 'experts' having campaigned to reduce our salt intake, now we have the situation where iodine is again lacking in our diet.
No inconsistency on Key's part. Just realism.


I think you have missed the point. It's not about realism or for that matter the need for iodine to be added to bread. As a reminder Key was on record of allowing folic acid to be law with a review coming later. (September of this year) It was not until Katherine Rich got herself on TV as an advocate for the Bakers Association and Key seeing a change in public opinion changed his mind.


It's Keys inconsistency in that on one hand he refuses to add vitamin B9 as a compulsory ingredient to bread and on the other makes iodine a compulsory ingredient for the product. The reasons are immaterial. Each side can argue the merits of their beliefs either for against but how do argue choice (bread free from the addition of vitamin B) as against compulsion (iodine). The two are incompatible.

I don’t have a problem with the addition of folic acid as the benefit outweighs any disadvantages, I don’t see any, but then I do not have any problems with the addition of iodine either. On this score my philosophy is consistent as both are of benefit.


Skyryder

[MSTRS]

Look, you horrible little man, B9 is available in all sorts of food, iodine is not. People seem to accept that too much salt is a bad thing, or are using rock salt in grinders. You seem to accept that iodine is necessary, so in the absence of 'sufficient' treated salt in our diets, does it not seem logical to change which (staple) foodstuff it is added to?

[Skyryder]

Look, you horrible little man, B9 is available in all sorts of food, iodine is not. People seem to accept that too much salt is a bad thing, or are using rock salt in grinders. You seem to accept that iodine is necessary, so in the absence of 'sufficient' treated salt in our diets, does it not seem logical to change which (staple) foodstuff it is added to?

See now you have got personal.

You have based your opinion on the availability of B9 in the food as against the absence of iodine. As previouse stated each arguement, that is for or against the addition or absence of B9 and iodine, is not the issue. It is Keys inconsistancy of the prohibition of one and the compulsion of the other.


Mr Key says the next three years should be spent examining the issue and seeing whether a voluntary code could be set up. He says if bakers could introduce folic acid to some bread voluntarily, it may change the direction New Zealand takes.


Skyryder

[MSTRS]

See now you have got personal.

You have based your opinion on the availability of B9 in the food as against the absence of iodine. As previouse stated each arguement, that is for or against the addition or absence of B9 and iodine, is not the issue. It is Keys inconsistancy of the prohibition of one and the compulsion of the other.

Mr Key says the next three years should be spent examining the issue and seeing whether a voluntary code could be set up. He says if bakers could introduce folic acid to some bread voluntarily, it may change the direction New Zealand takes.

Skyryder

Yep, that cap fits well. As does yours when addressing anything that John Key is remotely connected with. Or even not, as the case may be.
When iodine was added to table salt, was it done voluntarily on the salt producers part? I doubt it. Logic tells me that some Govt working group (Health, no doubt) got a compulsion order to do so. And at no time was there ever no plain salt available, right there on the s/market shelf beside the iodised version, so we have always made up our own minds on which one we wanted.
Your quote from Key shows the measure of the man...that he is open to all ideas, and won't order this sort of thing carte blanche, which is a good thing. Everybody knows that big decisions made quickly and under pressure, often turn out to be badly flawed. This gives space to investigate other ways of ensuring that 'vulnerable' woman get their B9, or publicity of he problem can reach them and they take better care of their diet, all by themselves. Which is how most of us do it.

[Ixion]

Personally, I would oppose the *compulsory* addition of iodine to bread, on the same basis as I oppose the *compulsory* addition of folate (or anything else, actually).

Note the word *compulsory*. I support having bread with folate available. And having bread with iodine available. Just so long as bread WITHOUT iodine, and bread WITHOUT folate is also equally available.

m'self, I'd buy the bead with iodine, and pass on the folate. Unless I get pregnant.

The pinch is not the addition of any of the substances. It's the compulsion, the withdrawal of the right choose NOT to be medicated.

[Skyryder]

Personally, I would oppose the *compulsory* addition of iodine to bread, on the same basis as I oppose the *compulsory* addition of folate (or anything else, actually).

Note the word *compulsory*. I support having bread with folate available. And having bread with iodine available. Just so long as bread WITHOUT iodine, and bread WITHOUT folate is also equally available.

m'self, I'd buy the bead with iodine, and pass on the folate. Unless I get pregnant.

The pinch is not the addition of any of the substances. It's the compulsion, the withdrawal of the right choose NOT to be medicated.

Which is excactly th epoint I'm trying to make. compulsion on one addition and volintery with the other. Yep spelling shit. but I'm about to get tea and this is a quick post.


Sadly by the time some get pregnant and they are short on folic acid it's too late. Bad things can happen real early.

On the same radio show that I mentioned earlier it was mentioned by far most pregnancies are unplanned. The same woman mentioned that there would be a 50 percent reduction in nueral deficiincies if folic acid was added to bread. I don't have any stats to back any of this up.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Yep, that cap fits well. As does yours when addressing anything that John Key is remotely connected with. Or even not, as the case may be.
When iodine was added to table salt, was it done voluntarily on the salt producers part? I doubt it. Logic tells me that some Govt working group (Health, no doubt) got a compulsion order to do so. And at no time was there ever no plain salt available, right there on the s/market shelf beside the iodised version, so we have always made up our own minds on which one we wanted.
Your quote from Key shows the measure of the man...that he is open to all ideas, and won't order this sort of thing carte blanche, which is a good thing. Everybody knows that big decisions made quickly and under pressure, often turn out to be badly flawed. This gives space to investigate other ways of ensuring that 'vulnerable' woman get their B9, or publicity of he problem can reach them and they take better care of their diet, all by themselves. Which is how most of us do it.

Yes Key’s an arshole but I don’t recall giving you any shit, and I seem to recall you responding in a like manner with Clarke as I do with Key.

Voluntary= able to act on ones own free will.
Compulsory=unable to act on ones own free will.

Inconsistency=acting at variance with ones own principles=Key or as I call him the Jandal man. Flip flop flip flop.


Skyryder

[davereid]

Which is excactly th epoint I'm trying to make. compulsion on one addition and volintery with the other. Yep spelling shit. but I'm about to get tea and this is a quick post.


Sadly by the time some get pregnant and they are short on folic acid it's too late. Bad things can happen real early.

On the same radio show that I mentioned earlier it was mentioned by far most pregnancies are unplanned. The same woman mentioned that there would be a 50 percent reduction in nueral deficiincies if folic acid was added to bread. I don't have any stats to back any of this up.

Skyryder

A person on a normal diet won't be short of folic acid. But NZ soil is deficient in iodine, so no diet gives you adequate iodine.

And adding folic acid to bread is NOT a cure - the average persons bread consumption would leave them short by 50%.

I my opinion the additive should be optional in both cases.

Nonetheless medicating 4,000,000 people to treat a deficiency suffured by 4,000,000 is way more sensible than medicating 4,000,000 people to half treat a deficiency suffered by 10 people who eat badly.

[Skyryder]

A person on a normal diet won't be short of folic acid. But NZ soil is deficient in iodine, so no diet gives you adequate iodine.

And adding folic acid to bread is NOT a cure - the average persons bread consumption would leave them short by 50%.

I my opinion the additive should be optional in both cases.

Nonetheless medicating 4,000,000 people to treat a deficiency suffured by 4,000,000 is way more sensible than medicating 4,000,000 people to half treat a deficiency suffered by 10 people who eat badly.



Read my recent posts. They are about Key's inconsistancy. Not about the merits or not of adding iodine or folic acid to bread. I've moved on from that.


Skyryder

[Mom]

Read my recent posts. They are about Key's inconsistancy. Not about the merits or not of adding iodine or folic acid to bread. I've moved on from that. Skyryder

Please return to the subject, your posts are now becoming very off topic ;)

Happy to have the iodine/flouride debate aired in here, your personal politics do not belong.

Ta.
EDIT: Actually, just to clarify, this is about mass mediacting the populace not the government that brings it in, or allows it to happen.

[davereid]

Read my recent posts. They are about Key's inconsistancy. Not about the merits or not of adding iodine or folic acid to bread. I've moved on from that.Skyryder

Mr. Key would be inconsistant if he answered the same question and had different answers.

However, the questions are very different...

Nonetheless, IMHO medicative food additives should be non compulsory, unless their non inclusion causes a health hazard rather than a possible health benefit.

Like chlorine in water for example.

[MSTRS]

A person on a normal diet won't be short of folic acid. But NZ soil is deficient in iodine, so no diet gives you adequate iodine.

And adding folic acid to bread is NOT a cure - the average persons bread consumption would leave them short by 50%.

I my opinion the additive should be optional in both cases.

Nonetheless medicating 4,000,000 people to treat a deficiency suffured by 4,000,000 is way more sensible than medicating 4,000,000 people to half treat a deficiency suffered by 10 people who eat badly.

Exactly. And with the reduction in salt consumption we have been told is happening, what other everyday foodstuff is best to be the carrier for the iodine we must have? Bread seems very logical.
Seaweed would be about the only naturally occurring source in NZ, and who eats (much of) that?

[Badjelly]

...and pass on the folate. Unless I get pregnant.

Or are likely to in the next few months. :Oops:

[Skyryder]

Mr. Key would be inconsistant if he answered the same question and had different answers.

However, the questions are very different...

No the question is the same (does one section of the community need each of these additives??) but he gives a different answer.

One answer is voluntary the other is compulsary.



Skyryder

[MSTRS]

No the question is the same (does one section of the community need each of these additives??) but he gives a different answer.


*SIGH*
The question is NOT THE SAME!!!
One small portion of the population needs a top-up of a vitamin, because they are too lazy/whatever to see to their own diet...the whole population needs a top-up of a (mineral?), because we all must have it and there is essentially no other source.
You never answered my earlier post re dosing of salt. I bet it wasn't voluntary...

[Skyryder]

*SIGH*
The question is NOT THE SAME!!!
One small portion of the population needs a top-up of a vitamin, because they are too lazy/whatever to see to their own diet...the whole population needs a top-up of a (mineral?), because we all must have it and there is essentially no other source.
You never answered my earlier post re dosing of salt. I bet it wasn't voluntary...


How much folate is recommended?
It is recommended that New Zealand adults consume around 400 micrograms of folate from food each day. Adults get about 250 micrograms of folate from food each day, well below the recommended intake.
New Zealand’s current policy recommends that women capable of, or planning a pregnancy, take at least 400 micrograms of folic acid daily for at least four weeks before and 12 weeks after conception. As well as consuming foods rich in folate and folic acid-fortified foods. If you have a family history of NTDs like spina bifida an even higher dose of folic acid may be necessary – particularly for women who have had a child with an NTD and are planning subsequent pregnancies.
From the NZFSA
http://www.nzfsa.govt.nz/processed-food-retail-sale/bakery-products/mandatory-user-guide/page-08.htm.

As you can see from the above and from the Govt agency at that there is an across the board adult deficiency in folic acid as there is with iodine.

I can only reiterate what I have maintained in earlier posts Key has excluded one as voluntary and made the other compulsory when in fact both are needed in an adult daily diet and in which both are deficiant. You can call Keys decision any way want but those with a brain can see that Keys decision was based on political reasons not health ones and as a result the rate of babies born with NTD will remain the same whereas if folic acid had have been added to bread this would have been reduce by fifty percent or so I heard from the National Radio. I am unable to supply further details on this.
But one thing that is overwhelming is that most health professionals and those in ‘baby business are in agreement that folic acid needs to be available to pregnant mothers.
Someone mentioned that when they were pregnant free folic acid pills were available.
It would be interesting to know who and for what reason they were discontinued as a free supplement.

I don’t see the connection between re dosing salt and the current debate.

However it was first bought in 1924 and the iodine content was increased in 1938 for health reasons. I see no problem with folic acid introduced for much the same reason and as the above shows from the NZFSA website there appears to be a case where it should be introduced into an appropriate food source as iodine is with salt.


Skyryder

[Badjelly]

You never answered my earlier post re dosing of salt. I bet it wasn't voluntary...

I don't know, but I do know you can buy non-iodised salt: we have some in the cupboard.

[Naki Rat]

...... I see no problem with folic acid introduced for much the same reason and as the above shows from the NZFSA website there appears to be a case where it should be introduced into an appropriate food source as iodine is with salt.


Skyryder

The problem is that one can choose to buy iodised salt or not. The situation that was being proposed with bread provided no such choice other than paying a premium for organic bread, which would essentially be a penalty if the bread was being purchased for that reason alone.

The issue I see with using bread as the vehicle of distribution of any substance is that approximately 20% (and increasing) of the population are limiting consumption of, if not avoiding altogether, wheat breads due to dietary issues.

[MSTRS]

I don’t see the connection between re dosing salt and the current debate.



The connection is that iodine is put into table salt, people are eating less of it so their iodine intake is dropping, so an alternative distribution system is being mooted.
First I've heard of folate being below RDI.
If people's intake of folate is dangerously low, then some form of compulsion may be necessary. As long as there is still choice for the consumer, as there is with salt, without paying premium prices.

[Skyryder]

The problem is that one can choose to buy iodised salt or not. The situation that was being proposed with bread provided no such choice other than paying a premium for organic bread, which would essentially be a penalty if the bread was being purchased for that reason alone.

That is a valid point.

Personally I believe the organic product is far overpriced but I suspect that most people would still purchase 'fortified' bread not only on the basis of price, but on the additional health additive too.

It is worth noting that iodine was first introduced back in the twenties and no one realy makes any fuss on that now. In time when the public gets used to the addition of folic acid no one will realy care too much either.

But this whole issue does raise a point that no one has mentioned. At what point does the addition of additives become too much.

Perhaps this is best for another thread but I suspect that most of the additives added to food are for cosmetic purposes alone and that is something that most take little notice of or complain about

But as soon as an additive is added for health reasons we get all up in arms.


Strange that.


Skyryder

[Naki Rat]

......Personally I believe the organic product is far overpriced .....

Or more to the point non-organic products are underpriced as their real cost is long term in costs to health and the environment :sick::sick:

[MSTRS]

Perhaps this is best for another thread but I suspect that most of the additives added to food are for cosmetic purposes alone and that is something that most take little notice of or complain about



Ahhhh, now we might be getting somewhere....
It is only recently that some food additives are being recognised for the problems they can cause. And alternatives are increasingly available to choose from.
It is the alternatives that are important here.