Pakeha - do you like this name?

[cheese]

Just interested in what most people think of being called a Pakeha? Do you call yourself a Pakeha? Or prefer to be called a NZ European? Or just a Kiwi?

[MSTRS]

I do not like the word Pakeha. There have been other threads on this subject, and there are plenty of viewpoints on its meaning. To me, it will always be a slightly derisory term. Like Darkie.

[Morcs]

Its racist.

Im not having hories and parlangi's putting a label on me.

Im british mofo's.

[Oscar]

Since the bloody Septics started dropping the "fruit" bit off of Kiwifruit, I haven't liked being called a kiwi. Pakeha is OK.

[RC1]

dont really care as long as whoever said it to me dont mind bein called a nigga, hori, coon, fob, gook, or whatever they look like to me :gob:

[Pussy]

I had no choice as to my race.
I happened to be NZ born, with 100% celtic blood.
I prefer "kiwi" or "NZ European"

[Indiana_Jones]

Im british mofo's.

Europe, where history comes from!

If I were born in New Zealand, I'd like to be called a New Zealander, regardless of race.

-Indy

[Lissa]

To be fair I dont think I have actually been called a 'Pakeha' to my face by anyone, unless its in jest but then I have called some of the guys at work 'Mouldies'.

I prefer Kiwi, but generally don't really care, got enough to worry about with folic acid and the price of groceries. :yes: :shutup:

[tri boy]

I get called alot worse.

[Virago]

I'm Ngati Pakeha...

[Trudes]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=96158&highlight=pakeha

[klingon]

I'm a Pakeha!

I'm a mix of various races (mostly European with a bit more exotic stuff thrown in for good luck). My ancestors on various branches of my family tree have been here for between three & eight generations. Nothing else does justice to my status better than "Pakeha." We have a unique place in the world! :yes:

[slofox]

I've been called a lot worse than "pakeha"...:devil2:

[p.dath]

I prefer Kiwi. Lets unify as one country, or do we really want two separate systems with two separate parliaments and two sets of laws ...

[Ixion]

Depends who's using it. The word itself is not inherently offensive. but then, neither is nigger.

If used simply as a counterpoint to maori - eg "maori have x% summit; pakeha y%; asians z%", I don't mind that.

But mostly when it's used , and always when it's used by the maori radical types, it is (deliberately) offensive. No different to "niggers x%; pakeha y% ; chinks z%". What, you don't like that. Nor do I.

on't dislike it as much as being called European though. Those of my ancestors who weren't maori were *BRITISH*. Not European. They spend 1000 years fighting the bloody Europeans. And still haven't gotten over Senlac Hill.

[wickle]

Voted Kiwi but "New Zealander" is what I fill in on papers if that option is available (other)

[want-a-harley]

I understood pakeha to mean from New Zealand but not Maori, that is, it is different from a recent white immigrant, I could be wrong.

I prefer white New Zealander to NZ european

[Kiwi Graham]

I prefer Kiwi (wel I would wouldn't I)or New Zealander on the census I'm down as a Jedi :yes:

[MSTRS]

I'm a Pakeha!

I'm a mix of various races (mostly European with a bit more exotic stuff thrown in for good luck). My ancestors on various branches of my family tree have been here for between three & eight generations. Nothing else does justice to my status better than "Pakeha." We have a unique place in the world! :yes:


I understood pakeha to mean from New Zealand but not Maori, that is, it is different from a recent white immigrant, I could be wrong.

I prefer white New Zealander to NZ european

Anyone with a white skin is technically a Pakeha. It does not mean a white resident of this country.

[Dean]

I am Maori, i have called one person a pakeha when i was with my dad, and on a recieving end there is also Maori being called all sorts of names. Honestly i can name hundreds of racial slurs aimed at pre dominantly Maori, but only a few aimed at nz europeans.

[want-a-harley]

Anyone with a white skin is technically a Pakeha. It does not mean a white resident of this country.

Pākehā(noun) New Zealander of European descent. (Te Kōhure Textbook (Ed. 2): 128-138;)

[SPman]

I don't care what you call me, as long as it's not late for dinner!

[firefighter]

I am Maori, i have called one person a pakeha when i was with my dad, and on a recieving end there is also Maori being called all sorts of names. Honestly i can name hundreds of racial slurs aimed at pre dominantly Maori, but only a few aimed at nz europeans.

And how many of these are on government forms/applications and happily used by the media????

None.

My heart bleeds for you.......:shutup:

This thread is about the word 'PAKEHA', NOT how many words you can use to offend maori.......although nice attempt at trying to attain the whole sympathy thing and make this about your cultures problems......

bloody typical.

[klingon]

I really really really don't like being called "white"or "European."

a) I am so much more than the colour of my skin
b) I have never even been to Europe! I'm definitely not a European.

I suppose I could be called a "New Zealander of Predominantly European Descent" but I think "Pakeha" encapsulates my culture as well as my genetic heritage.

[Morcs]

Anyone with a white skin is technically a Pakeha. It does not mean a white resident of this country.

And how is that different from the many derogatory terms for black skin? and whats technical about it? Its another language ffs, and its not even the main language of its country of origin, so therefore, the word itself is quite irrelevant and meaningless really.

[toebug]

Its racist.

Im not having hories and parlangi's putting a label on me.

Im british mofo's.

Just like you wouldn't label them, right!


I understood pakeha to mean from New Zealand but not Maori, that is, it is different from a recent white immigrant, I could be wrong.


I agree! I dont mind pakeha, I am kiwi born and bred and non-maori therefore I am Pakeha.


Pākehā(noun) New Zealander of European descent. (Te Kōhure Textbook (Ed. 2): 128-138;)
+1

[Morcs]

Just like you wouldn't label them, right!


Sarcasm and irony are wonderful things. If you didnt notice, my post stinks of them.

[Waxxa]

my understanding is the word Pakeha means foreigner, someone who is not born here in NZ and includes all races that have migrated here; english, south africans, indians, chinese, aussies, americans, japanese etc. Someone not born here. Its not about the colour of your skin.

I myself was born here in NZ (european descent) which does not make me a foreigner and hence my distaste of being called a foreigner i.e. a Pakeha.
All the lakes and mountains, rivers, beaches, lands, forests etc are my taonga (treasure) as well.

[rainman]

Africa, where history comes from!


Fixed that for you. :done: :yes:


I'm Ngati Pakeha...

Dunedin... guess it wasn't you I passed on the motorway 10 mins ago, "Ngati Pakeha" in big letters on the back of the ute?



b) I have never even been to Europe! I'm definitely not a European.


Ditto. You have to go a good way back in my family tree to find anything European.

[slofox]

...And still haven't gotten over Senlac Hill.

That Senlac Hill is bloody steep eh? They prolly need to get fitter before they try again...:whistle: Either that or go 'round it....

[Genestho]

LOL! I've been called worse, and no doubt will again :yes:

[rachprice]

I dislike it because it was used toward me in a derogatory way many a time at school where being white was the minority

[ajturbo]

Its racist.

Im not having hories and parlangi's putting a label on me.

Im british mofo's.
I'm a New Zealander:Punk:

[ajturbo]

LOL! I've been called worse, and no doubt will again :yes:
you o'l bag.....:innocent:

[ManDownUnder]

I don't give a shit - unless I have too much porridge... then it tends to hurry things along.

[Genestho]

I dislike it because it was used toward me in a derogatory way many a time at school where being white was the minority

I was just referred to as 'girl' usually with a scowl, when I was the only whitey in class!

Maybe I got used to the word Pakeha being spoken. Can't recall it bothering me, if so.

[Finn]

I dislike it because it was used toward me in a derogatory way many a time at school where being white was the minority

Like between 9am and 3pm?

[Genestho]

you o'l bag.....:innocent:
Oi you, less of the OLD! :lol:

[MSTRS]

Pākehā(noun) New Zealander of European descent. (Te Kōhure Textbook (Ed. 2): 128-138;)
It may have become the case....but was originally applied to white people, prior to 'european' settlement, by the Maori.



And how is that different from the many derogatory terms for black skin? and whats technical about it? Its another language ffs, and its not even the main language of its country of origin, so therefore, the word itself is quite irrelevant and meaningless really.

So are you agreeing with me, that it is a derogatory term?

[peasea]

You can call me a kiwi, I wrote 'New Zealander' on the census form but I don't like being called a 'pakeha'. I'm from the nutty fucker tribe.

[ajturbo]

You can call me a kiwi, I wrote 'New Zealander' on the census form but I don't like being called a 'pakeha'. I'm from the nutty fucker tribe.
you filled out a census form.........:laugh::laugh::killingme:killingme

[Oscar]

Would someone explain to me how this term is derogatory?
I know the guff about the origin of the words, but the fact is that a lot of words can be considered offensive if you try hard enough (and looking to be offended about something is a real Kiwi trait).

For example - Wales/Welsh is not even a Welsh word. It is an Anglo-Saxon word meaning "foreigners".

Sinister is from the Latin and means "left handed", but in English it has another pejorative meaning.

Are there any Left Handed Welshman here?
You guys definitely have a right to be pissed off....

[peasea]

you filled out a census form.........:laugh::laugh::killingme:killingme

Yeah, why not? What's the joke? I also voted in the last election, hold a current driver's license and have no outstanding fines.

I'm straight-as.

[James Deuce]

And still haven't gotten over Senlac Hill.

They've put steps in now. It's much easier than it was.

[oldrider]

Just interested in what most people think of being called a Pakeha? Do you call yourself a Pakeha? Or prefer to be called a NZ European? Or just a Kiwi?

Schoolyard chant of yesteryear: "Sticks and stones can break my bones but names can never hurt me"

Unless you yourself give permission for it to hurt! :crybaby:

I am at ease with the term Pakeha because I am at ease with who I am! :whocares:

Depending on who says what, I could be offended by some one simply saying my name for fucks sake! :sick:

How sick is that! :doh:

We (humans) can be very fickle at times. :weird:

[Morcs]

So are you agreeing with me, that it is a derogatory term?

Yes, but you just used it saying technically anyone with white skin is pakeha.

No. we arent, because as i just said, tis a word in a silly language and who cares?

[ManDownUnder]

I'm not worried but would like someone to take offense on my behalf please. I really don't care but can't stand being a member of an overly senstivie society and not contributing to it so if anyone's upset enough to be upset for me too, go right on ahead.

I'm just too lazy, oh and mentioned before - don't give a crap.

[Dean]

And how many of these are on government forms/applications and happily used by the media????

None.

My heart bleeds for you.......:shutup:

This thread is about the word 'PAKEHA', NOT how many words you can use to offend maori.......although nice attempt at trying to attain the whole sympathy thing and make this about your cultures problems......

bloody typical.

Whats typical is 19 people voted the word "PAKEHA" offensive, what does that say about kber's on this, im sorry my heart doesent bleed for whining, complaining, ranting old gits:shutup::Punk:. From my memory i cant remember any threads of Maori and alike discussing words they find offensive, because mainstream kb shoves them to the side. Actually one thread calls to mind, a person discussing how racisim is ever prevalent on kiwi biker especially to the minority (Maori). O but wait he got told to fuck off:shit::gob:, bloody typical:bash:

Im not asking for your sympathy, im fine but thankyou for offering. :wari:

[Finn]

I'm just too lazy, oh and mentioned before - don't give a crap.

You Maori's are all the same.

[ManDownUnder]

You Maori's are all the same.

Ngati Whitebread bro.

[Oscar]

There is an interesting paper here:

http://www.maorinews.com/writings/papers/other/pakeha.htm


The most likely derivation seems to be from ‘Pakepakeha’ (George, 1999) mythical creatures who are mischievous, human-like beings, with fair skin and hair who lived deep in the forest, coming out only at night. (Biggs, 1988). The derivation of ‘Pakeha’ from ‘Pakepakeha’ is given added weight when we consider that the first term used to describe Cook and his crew was ‘tipua’ or ‘tupua’, a goblin or a supernatural object of terror (George, 1999).

[firefighter]

Whats typical is 19 people voted the word "PAKEHA" offensive, what does that say about kber's on this, im sorry my heart doesent bleed for whining, complaining, ranting old gits:shutup::Punk:. From my memory i cant remember any threads of Maori and alike discussing words they find offensive, because mainstream kb shoves them to the side. Actually one thread calls to mind, a person discussing how racisim is ever prevalent on kiwi biker especially to the minority (Maori). O but wait he got told to fuck off:shit::gob:, bloody typical:bash:

Im not asking for your sympathy, im fine but thankyou for offering. :wari:

LOL, as I said, this is'nt about anything else other than who finds the word offensive, yet you insist on making it about supposedly unfairly treated maori......tisktisk.

Oh yeah, check out my 'custom user title......'

It will make you aware of something........

[wbks]

Whats typical is 19 people voted the word "PAKEHA" offensive,Perhaps not everyone enjoys being labeled with something that was originally negative what does that say about kber's on this, im sorry my heart doesent bleed for whining, complaining, ranting old gits:shutup::Punk:. From my memory i cant remember any threads of Maori and alike discussing words they find offensive, because mainstream kb shoves them to the side No, it's because if there are even enough people on here that identify as Maori, they probably don't give a shit about complaining over the net about something like that. I'd agree. Actually one thread calls to mind, a person discussing how racisim is ever prevalent on kiwi biker especially to the minority (Maori). O but wait he got told to fuck off:shit::gob:, bloody typical:bash:Maybe people didn't agree with it. Which thread?

Im not asking for your sympathy, im fine but thankyou for offering. :wari:ten characters
Oh yea, I forgot to add: When you argue the unfair treatment of Maori when it's only about whether or not people find a word offensive, it kind of adds to the negative stereotype of Maori crying "racism" every time they hit trouble or get pissed off. Stupid complaining about something you're helping maintain, isn't it?

[Dean]

LOL, as I said, this is'nt about anything else other than who finds the word offensive, yet you insist on making it about supposedly unfairly treated maori......tisktisk.

Oh yeah, check out my 'custom user title......'

It will make you aware of something........

Simply put- i think its stupid when people rant and whinge about how they find the word offensive and "maori call me this and im going to have a cry", when they dont realise how they in general treat Maori. Its hypocritical.


Example= A fat man living in eithiopia crying because he cant get his second serving of pork, while their are hungry kids outside his doorstep.

[gatch]

I'd rather eat a sandwich and drink a beer. Woah hey look at that, sandwich and beer at hand..

chur

[Dean]

Oh yeah, check out my 'custom user title......'


You check my custom user title.....:yes:

[kiwifruit]

You check my custom user title.....:yes:

Its "you're" :sunny:

[firefighter]

Simply put- i think its stupid when people rant and whinge about how they find the word offensive and "maori call me this and im going to have a cry", when they dont realise how they in general treat Maori. Its hypocritical.


Example= A fat man living in eithiopia crying because he cant get his second serving of pork, while their are hungry kids outside his doorstep.
Again, you can't help but make it about yourself........


You check my custom user title.....:yes:

You obviously missed my point, it's a piss take you monkey.....

It's all a piss - take, for you to take it this seriously means there's some truth behind it.....because we all know that hurts.......!

oh yeah, i'm secretly Naomi Cambells hairdresser!!!!!!! You got me!

[MSTRS]

Yes, but you just used it saying technically anyone with white skin is pakeha.

Yep...that's what I said. The word was used by Maori to describe pale-skinned people, the meaning being less than 'respectful', shall we say.

I do not like the word Pakeha. There have been other threads on this subject, and there are plenty of viewpoints on its meaning. To me, it will always be a slightly derisory term. Like Darkie.

Anyone with a white skin is technically a Pakeha. It does not mean a white resident of this country.
Regardless of whether the meaning has changed in recent years, I still don't like the term. I am a New Zealander. All these other words to describe individuals are divisive and do not help when we should be encouraging a sense of national identity.

[Winston001]

Life's too short to get your knickers in a knot over "pakeha". I don't care. Ethnically I'm Caucasian, domiciled in New Zealander, culturally a Kiwi - with Scottish tendencies.... :yes:

We'd achieve something if we could puzzle out why Aussies produce 30% more per person than us, why the media think sex and murder is actually news,........and why seemingly sane people buy bland Japanese bikes..... :devil2:

[firefighter]

and why seemingly sane people buy bland Japanese bikes..... :devil2:

Reliability, looks, speed, fun, COST, maintenance costs, more mods can be done, wont leave you on the side of the road broken down .......etcetc

And before you say a thing about 'soul', I bet I can have more mods done than yours can!!! Or I suppose that is more character than soul.........Still, more carboncopy ducs than Hornets!!!

[Dean]

Again, you can't help but make it about yourself........



You obviously missed my point, it's a piss take you monkey.....

It's all a piss - take, for you to take it this seriously means there's some truth behind it.....because we all know that hurts.......!

oh yeah, i'm secretly Naomi Cambells hairdresser!!!!!!! You got me!

Nope

Take it easy milkyway, i like swinging from vine to vine, in this world we call a jungle.:Punk::woohoo:

Tomato, tumato, i stated my opinions about offensvie name calling, im sure someone one backs up my opinion on this. You just cant be a hypocrite complaining about how you get treated unfairly.

No i would imagine your professhion would be more hairdresser/costume stylist, more bruno like-- ish got a baby yea and ish called it a traditional Maori name "oj" aunty-whaaat! soley!!!! *50 jandals thrown*:shutup::dodge::dodge:

[98tls]

and why seemingly sane people buy bland Japanese bikes..... :devil2: :killingme:killingme:rofl:This from an ST4 rider:shit:Nice one there Winston.

[firefighter]

Nope

Take it easy milkyway, i like swinging from vine to vine, in this world we call a jungle.:Punk::woohoo:

Tomato, tumato, i stated my opinions about offensvie name calling, im sure someone one backs up my opinion on this. You just cant be a hypocrite complaining about how you get treated unfairly.

No i would imagine your professhion would be more hairdresser/costume stylist, more bruno like-- ish got a baby yea and ish called it a traditional Maori name "oj" aunty-whaaat! soley!!!! *50 jandals thrown*:shutup::dodge::dodge:

Hahahaha, no the name of the wee tyke is slightly more traditional.......it's Harley!!!!!

And i'm no hypocrite, I don't recall ever treating anyone poorly due to race.......

And I don't think i'm treated unfairly at all, I never said that, I just don't like that one word appearing on forms I need to fill out......

[Dean]

Hahahaha, no the name of the wee tyke is slightly more traditional.......it's Harley!!!!!

Harley aye will have to write that one down :rofl::rofl:

I wonder if anyone has called their son Pakeha, thats a good question huh. I dont even know any Maori except kia ora, but i think in Maori it means "pale pig" im not to sure on that one.

[Robbo]

The word Pakeha does'nt bother me in the slightest and i don't find it offensive in any way but i do prefer to be called or refered to as a Kiwi because that's what i am. :yes:

[Zuki lover]

Frankly, they don't like being called niggers or blacks, so why should we accept being called pakeha's.

We are all one nation, we are all one people, so why are they the ones who discriminate against us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bash::bash::bash:: angry::angry::angry:

[James Deuce]

Harley aye will have to write that one down :rofl::rofl:

I wonder if anyone has called their son Pakeha, thats a good question huh. I dont even know any Maori except kia ora, but i think in Maori it means "pale pig" im not to sure on that one.

In British, Kia Ora means "orange juice".

[98tls]

Wonder if Pakeha was originally spelt with an h,if not then yes im deeply offended and yes compensation will fix the problem.:woohoo:

[Dean]

does this mean i can call you a savage or a cannibal (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/maori/news/article.cfm?c_id=252&objectid=10529179) if i wish? Im sure my people used these words to describe your people at around the same time in our history...

To be honest you can call me what you feel fitted, at the end of the day i cant controll what people say. Im an independant dude:Punk: i just dont give a.............

[Bonez]

Not too worried at all:

Could well be from pakepakeha: imaginary beings resembling men.

Or and I like this:

From pakehakeha: one of the sea god

[98tls]

Not too worried at all:

Could well be from pakepakeha: imaginary beings resembling men. That will be what the glue sniffers see then.:shit:

[wbks]

Harley aye will have to write that one down :rofl::rofl:

I wonder if anyone has called their son Pakeha, thats a good question huh. I dont even know any Maori except kia ora, but i think in Maori it means "pale pig" im not to sure on that one.wtf... You think it means "pale pig" and then wonder why people "whine" about it on KB?:bash:

[Bonez]

That will be what the glue sniffers see then.:shit:You'll like the other one.

The word maori, if put in its proper orignal context, really means ordinary.

"tangata maori" or "ordinary man" was sortened to maori by the whities.
Wouldn't be surprised if "pakehakeha" was shortened to pakeha by the whities too ;).

"poaka" is pig.
"keha" is flea.

A good read:- http://www.maorinews.com/writings/papers/other/pakeha.htm

[Dean]

wtf... You think it means "pale pig" and then wonder why people "whine" about it on KB?:bash:

Im not to sure, i probably dont even know as much Maori as the average european, i just remember asking about what it meant and somewhere along those lines a person told me it.

[davereid]

The word maori, if put in its proper orignal context, really means ordinary.

Good point. Maori really only knew tribal groups - they were not a united nation, just a group of tribes, perpetually at war.

Its a bit like errr "Hello Earthling"... until the invention of science fiction, we didnt really have a word to describe people who lived on earth as opposed to people from, well, somewhere else.

Would we call a new arrival from mars a "martian" ? maybe. But I bet if he had big ears, he would be called "big ears".

Which is possibly, why its likely that we consider "pakeha" to be a describing word.. rather than a naming word !

And possibly an insulting one.

[Ixion]

Would someone explain to me how this term is derogatory?
I know the guff about the origin of the words, but the fact is that a lot of words can be considered offensive if you try hard enough (and looking to be offended about something is a real Kiwi trait).

For example - Wales/Welsh is not even a Welsh word. It is an Anglo-Saxon word meaning "foreigners".
..

yes. Indeed so. But try calling the big guy in the pub a welcher.

[tigertim20]

Cant be bothered reading the whole thread, butto answer the op's question, for me personally, I get a little offended when people call me a pakeha. Not because I think the word is an insult, I know that it isn't. The reason I get a little offended is because is someone refers to me as a pakeha, then that is THEM deciding to define who I am. I consider myself a kiwi, rightly or wrongly because I was born here, spent my whole life here, as has my family. In my mind, that is enough to consider myself a kiwi. I guess it's like, a quarter indian, quarter french, quarter irish, quarter innuit, who has spent their entire life in Alaska, living by the ways of the innuit, being referred to as an indian, just because the pigment of their skin is alike to that of those from India.
I just mean that if you don't know who I am, where I am from, etc, then you have no right to tell me who, or what I am.
Interestingly, there are so many people that are (in varying degrees) part Maori, yet have very light coloured skin. my basic understanding of pakeha is "not Maori", thus I find it funny when a person is called pakeha, on the basis of the appearance of their skin, in some cases, the lighter skinned person may hold a far greater biological link to Maori, than the person calling them Maori....

[Bonez]

And possibly an insulting one.As far as insults go I like pa keha - village flea ;) Hoping along, taking bites at and irritating folk :).

[Mom]

I am a Canadian citizen with NZ permanent residency. I have lived here most of my life.

Call me Kiwi please.

[Deano]

As far as insults go I like pa keha - village flea ;) Hoping along, taking bites at and irritating folk :).

A bit synonomous with 'troll' then ?

[Bonez]

A bit synonomous with 'troll' then ?No. Trolls have fleas too.

[cheese]

Cheers for all your input guys. Really interesting to see what people think.

For me, I just don't feel comfortable with it. I do compare it to words like Nigger, wog boy, frog etc. I can't say its ever really had a true positive ring to it. I'd love to have a Maori word for us lighter skinned Kiwis, but I personally think that Pakeha carries too much baggage.

[98tls]

Cheers for all your input guys. Really interesting to see what people think.

For me, I just don't feel comfortable with it. I do compare it to words like Nigger, wog boy, frog etc. I can't say its ever really had a true positive ring to it. I'd love to have a Maori word for us lighter skinned Kiwis, but I personally think that Pakeha carries too much baggage. Ive had "honky cunt" from time to time,funny really as i dont even wear aftershave.

[Bonez]

Doing a bit more research and it appears early Europeans, including slaves, who lived amongst the "tangata maori" where refered to as "pakeha maori". Go figure.................

An educational thread. Cheers.

[Winston001]

The reason I get a little offended is because is someone refers to me as a pakeha, then that is THEM deciding to define who I am. I consider myself a kiwi, rightly or wrongly because I was born here, spent my whole life here, as has my family. In my mind, that is enough to consider myself a kiwi.

I guess it's like, a quarter indian, quarter french, quarter irish, quarter innuit, who has spent their entire life in Alaska, living by the ways of the innuit, being referred to as an indian, just because the pigment of their skin is alike to that of those from India......

There are two confused discussions going on in this thread. If you look in the mirror you are going to see skull shape, brow structures, and skin pigment. That tells you your dominant racial characteristics. Innuit, Irish, whatever.

That has absolutely nothing to do with nationality - which is what most people mean when they want to be called "Kiwi".

And just to complicate things, there is also your culture background to consider. Asian people, Scottish people, Danish people (Danniverke) etc can relate strongly (generations later) to their ethnic roots. And so it is for many Maori.

But all of these people will still consider themselves Kiwis. Good on them.

[scumdog]

Not pakeha but 100% honky!

[98tls]

There are two confused discussions going on in this thread. If you look in the mirror you are going to see skull shape, brow structures, and skin pigment. That tells you your dominant racial characteristics. Innuit, Irish, whatever.

That has absolutely nothing to do with nationality - which is what most people mean when they want to be called "Kiwi".

And just to complicate things, there is also your culture background to consider. Asian people, Scottish people, Danish people (Danniverke) etc can relate strongly (generations later) to their ethnic roots. And so it is for many Maori.

But all of these people will still consider themselves Kiwis. Good on them. Mmmmmmm Germany....Oamaru:brick:Rushes off to mirror:shit:

[Bonez]

Not pakeha but 100% honky!Maybe a charity run with the theme "Honk if you are a Honky" could be organised.

[sosman]

I'm a halfcarse jiggaboo halfpipe jumper:Punk:(part maori bmx jumper):Punk:

You say something Honky?

You get eye's for xmas al?

Wotcha looking at then eh!

[Ixion]

There are two confused discussions going on in this thread. If you look in the mirror you are going to see skull shape, brow structures, and skin pigment. That tells you your dominant racial characteristics. Innuit, Irish, whatever.

That has absolutely nothing to do with nationality - which is what most people mean when they want to be called "Kiwi".

And just to complicate things, there is also your culture background to consider. Asian people, Scottish people, Danish people (Danniverke) etc can relate strongly (generations later) to their ethnic roots. And so it is for many Maori.

But all of these people will still consider themselves Kiwis. Good on them.

Irish isn't a race. That'd be Celtic. Thing is, many Kiwis have been here for so many generations and are so blended that their race *IS* Kiwi. We've mixed so many races together that we've created a new one. Kiwi. And proud of it.

[Grahameeboy]

Irish isn't a race. That'd be Celtic. Thing is, many Kiwis have been here for so many generations and are so blended that their race *IS* Kiwi. We've mixed so many races together that we've created a new one. Kiwi. And proud of it.

They are "Irish". It's a race of people....the Celts were warmongerers about 800 plus years ago..bit like suggesting that the English are not a race..they are saxons....

[Grahameeboy]

Seems a few find "Pakeha" offensive but why....it is a harmless term

[Forest]

I don't really care.

I've been called worse things.

[peasea]

Life's too short to get your knickers in a knot over "pakeha". I don't care. Ethnically I'm Caucasian, domiciled in New Zealander, culturally a Kiwi - with Scottish tendencies.... :yes:

We'd achieve something if we could puzzle out why Aussies produce 30% more per person than us, why the media think sex and murder is actually news,........and why seemingly sane people buy bland Japanese bikes..... :devil2:

Oh crap. Must spread rep etc...

[peasea]

Not pakeha but 100% honky!

Wouldnt that be 'honky porky'?

[peasea]

I am a Canadian citizen with NZ permanent residency. I have lived here most of my life.

Call me Kiwi please.

Does anyone have a derogatory term for Canadians?

[sinfull]

As far as i am aware (without going through the whole thread to see if anyone has done this post) the word Pakeha is derived from two words, pakehakeha and pakepakeha and it means person/stranger with a white face !
Where as the term Maori means, the norm/normal ie; brown skinned ! But they, the Maori didn't call themselves Maori, it was Iwi or Tauiwi !
It (being the name Maori), was term picked up by the colonizers and used to descride the group !


Or in simple terms !
Yo Native, if you call us Pakeha cause were the strangers with white faces, what what you call yourselves ?
Awww aye cuz, we're normal !!!

[MSTRS]

They are "Irish". It's a race of people....the Celts were warmongerers about 800 plus years ago..bit like suggesting that the English are not a race..they are saxons....
The Irish are/were Celts. Just as were the Scots and the Welsh. But you are right about the English not being a race...they were invaded so many times that the term Mongrel describes them quite nicely. :innocent:

Seems a few find "Pakeha" offensive but why....it is a harmless term
In which case, so is Darkie. Or Tar Baby.

[Oscar]

The Irish are/were Celts. Just as were the Scots and the Welsh. But you are right about the English not being a race...they were invaded so many times that the term Mongrel describes them quite nicely. :innocent:



Yeah right.

What is the fascination of Kiwis with Celtic heritage?

The Scots and to a lessor extent the Irish have a large Danish element (where do you think the gingas come from?) in the population. There is a Spanish element in the Irish DNA. the Welsh are the remnants of many tribes expelled from what has become England and include Germanic and Roman ancestry.

In fact there are very few "races" left anywhere in the World,as everyone has interbred (how many "pure bred" Maori are left?) This whole race thing is crap, a Nazi dream.

[one fast tl1ooo]

:angry::angry:NO HATE IT :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

[peasea]

Irish isn't a race.

The Isle of Man TT is though, so is Bathurst (Oct 8-11), start stockpiling your booze now.

[MSTRS]

Yeah right.

What is the fascination of Kiwis with Celtic heritage?

The Scots and to a lessor extent the Irish have a large Danish element (where do you think the gingas come from?) in the population. There is a Spanish element in the Irish DNA. the Welsh are the remnants of many tribes expelled from what has become England and include Germanic and Roman ancestry.

In fact there are very few "races" left anywhere in the World,as everyone has interbred (how many "pure bred" Maori are left?) This whole race thing is crap, a Nazi dream.

Sorry. Did I miss putting the little light up in the top left of your screen?
The 3 races are still Caucasian, Negroid and Asiatic. Everyone is a derivative of them. And more than one, for that matter. We are all Mongrels.
It's just that the Poms are more so...:innocent:

[James Deuce]

Yeah right.

What is the fascination of Kiwis with Celtic heritage?

There is a Spanish element in the Irish DNA.



It's not Spansih it's BASQUE.

We hate the bloody spics.

[Oscar]

It's not Spansih it's BASQUE.

We hate the bloody spics.

The Spainish element in Ireland allegedly comes from Armada survivors washing up there.

[Oscar]

Sorry. Did I miss putting the little light up in the top left of your screen?
The 3 races are still Caucasian, Negroid and Asiatic. Everyone is a derivative of them. And more than one, for that matter. We are all Mongrels.
It's just that the Poms are more so...:innocent:

I must be mongrel of mongrels - Scots/English/Irish mixture..

[Ixion]

Does anyone have a derogatory term for Canadians?

Canadian. Doesn't get more derogatory than that. .

[MSTRS]

I must be mongrel of mongrels - Scots/English/Irish mixture..

Only 3? You got off lightly...
Still...how do you describe yourself? Pakeha? European? NZer?

[Bonez]

What is the fascination of Kiwis with Celtic heritage?Because it's fasinating? We're all migrents to this fine country. It nice to know our origins.

[Oscar]

Only 3? You got off lightly...
Still...how do you describe yourself? Pakeha? European? NZer?

Grumpy Old Cahnt.

[Oscar]

Because it's fasinating? We're all migrents to this fine country. It nice to know our origans.

I dunno how many Kiwis I've talked to who claimed Bony Prince Charlie or The Ancient Kings of Eire as their ancestors. They must of been randy old buggers.

Notwithstanding that, the average white migrant to NZ since 1830 has been a Anglican English Yeomanry or Methodist Scot.

[crazyhorse]

Why do we need to be called something that does not even sound English???

And what is wrong with European? When you get pulled up by the cops, they normally say European or ......, they do not refer to you as a pakeha!

I rest my case :whocares:

[peasea]

Because it's fasinating? We're all migrents to this fine country. It nice to know our origins.

I find it all rather fascinating too, as I found ancient Egypt fascinating when I was at school. I loved the mummies at the museum and shit like that. The Incas and Aztecs also take my interest, especially with the firebird drawings and so on.

I can recall one Doctor Leaky unerthing all manner of cool fossils in Africa years ago and trying to find the 'missing link' etc. I don't recall his work being stymied by Africans destroying ancient sites or preventing examination of bones and other artifacts.

I really don't give a rats arse who was in NZ first but I would like to get to the bottom of this land's history. If the Oompa-loompa tribe got here first, so be it, if it were Celts, so be it, Maori or whoever. Let's get over the political/racist b/s and get to the facts.

[Oscar]

Why do we need to be called something that does not even sound English???

And what is wrong with European? When you get pulled up by the cops, they normally say European or ......, they do not refer to you as a pakeha!

I rest my case :whocares:

Were you born in Europe?

[Bonez]

Why do we need to be called something that does not even sound English???

And what is wrong with European? When you get pulled up by the cops, they normally say European or ......, they do not refer to you as a pakeha!

I rest my case :whocares:"English" is a conclomeration of many langauges. What's the problem adding another to the mix? Authorities prefer a black and white approach, excuse the pun. Makes their lives easier.

Like others here I put "New Zealander" on any official docs where they ask about my "race".

Now that I think of it most of a the police I've met over the years use the word caucasion when refering to my ethnicity. I personnaly prefer ginga.

[James Deuce]

The Spainish element in Ireland allegedly comes from Armada survivors washing up there.

You're confused. But so am I.

I always thought my family name simply meant "Welsh" and marked us as Welsh migrants to Ireland, but it turns out it's "Wallacs", and is a Basque name from the last Celtic migration in the 15th C.

[Oscar]

You're confused. But so am I.

I always thought my family name simply meant "Welsh" and marked us as Welsh migrants to Ireland, but it turns out it's "Wallacs", and is a Basque name from the last Celtic migration in the 15th C.

I was referring to the "Black Irish".

[Mikkel]

A bit preseumpteous to assume that everyone on Kiwibiker fits the Pakeha term, innit?

Anyway, doesn't matter to me - I don't care what you call me, it won't change who I am.

[Naki Rat]

Does anyone have a derogatory term for Canadians?

Canook (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=canook)

But they're still way better than the seppos (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=seppo) from south of the border :Pokey:

[Grahameeboy]

The Irish are/were Celts. Just as were the Scots and the Welsh. But you are right about the English not being a race...they were invaded so many times that the term Mongrel describes them quite nicely. :innocent:

In which case, so is Darkie. Or Tar Baby.

To be honest names are just that and it's upto to the receiver to ignore the names...or make it an excuse to make a fuss.I get called a POM all the time and it goes in one and out the other....

[Bonez]

I find it all rather fascinating too, as I found ancient Egypt fascinating when I was at school. I loved the mummies at the museum and shit like that. The Incas and Aztecs also take my interest, especially with the firebird drawings and so on.

I can recall one Doctor Leaky unerthing all manner of cool fossils in Africa years ago and trying to find the 'missing link' etc. I don't recall his work being stymied by Africans destroying ancient sites or preventing examination of bones and other artifacts.

I really don't give a rats arse who was in NZ first but I would like to get to the bottom of this land's history. If the Oompa-loompa tribe got here first, so be it, if it were Celts, so be it, Maori or whoever. Let's get over the political/racist b/s and get to the facts.Suppressing documents till 2068 or so doesn't help does it? I hear the pagans are having a bit of a resurgance in Blighty.

[Winston001]

To be honest names are just that and it's upto to the receiver to ignore the names...or make it an excuse to make a fuss.I get called a POM all the time and it goes in one and out the other....

Mmmm...think the Race Relations Conciliator would have a few examples to make you think. Try walking down the street cheerfully talking about coons and chinks.......and then explain why it's their problem....:bash:

[buellbabe]

Yes well all very interesting...lots of points made that I could comment on but can't be bothered really...its not that I don't care its just that I'm apathetic...

I'm a Kiwi/NZer and bloody proud to be one!

[Grahameeboy]

Mmmm...think the Race Relations Conciliator would have a few examples to make you think. Try walking down the street cheerfully talking about coons and chinks.......and then explain why it's their problem....:bash:

Being called names..four eyes, ginger etc is part of life.....no different to being called a wanker, idiot etc....I sometimes think that race becomes too PC these days....calling someone a darkie does not mean that person does not like darkies.....different if you start telling them that because they are a darkie they are stupid or whatever...then it's personal which is different...Probably would have less issues if we did not have a Race Relations Counsellor.Make sense "Geezer"

[MSTRS]

...different if you start telling them that because they are a darkie they are stupid or whatever...then it's personal which is different...

Grahame, Grahame, Grahame. I despair.
Calling them stupid, because they are a darkie, is not personal. It is generalising. :shifty:
And not all stupid people are darkies...(control yourself, Finn).
:chase:

[Mom]

Does anyone have a derogatory term for Canadians?

Well now that you mention that. I was born in Montreal but my family are from Newfoundland. There are more than a few Newfie jokes around, no doubt there will be someone along to enlighten you soon :D

[Pussy]

Well now that you mention that. I was born in Montreal but my family are from Newfoundland. There are more than a few Newfie jokes around, no doubt there will be someone along to enlighten you soon :D

Go on, Mom.... tell us a couple! :)

[James Deuce]

Well now that you mention that. I was born in Montreal but my family are from Newfoundland. There are more than a few Newfie jokes around, no doubt there will be someone along to enlighten you soon :D
Hahahahahahah! At least you're not a mullet sporting Nova Scotian. Hahahahahahahahaha.

[Grahameeboy]

Grahame, Grahame, Grahame. I despair.
Calling them stupid, because they are a darkie, is not personal. It is generalising. :shifty:
And not all stupid people are darkies...(control yourself, Finn).
:chase:

Still more personal

[popelli]

I find the word ******* offensive and refuse to be catagorised by it

there are several variations on what the literal translation means, all of which are derogatory

however it can be a nightmare filling out govt forms as there is no catagory for nz citizens, you can either be catagorised as a ****** or you have to catagorise yourself as other - this is in essense institutional racism

[Grahameeboy]

As far as I know racism as only really been thought of since the 17th Century so is an invented name......didn't seem to be a problem before...

[Ixion]

The fuckin' Normans didn't seem to think that. Or the bloody sheep stealing Welch. And wodda y' think of the bloody frogs calling us goddams?

[Genestho]

Try being of German/Scottish descent:sweatdrop

Doesn't matter I'm kiwi, I had no choice in the matter, and I love it!

[Grahameeboy]

The fuckin' Normans didn't seem to think that. Or the bloody sheep stealing Welch. And wodda y' think of the bloody frogs calling us goddams?

That was not racism.....they needed sheep...

[Grahameeboy]

Ironic..in UK Pakistan people were called Paki and now I am called a Pakeha.....

[Oscar]

I find the word ******* offensive and refuse to be catagorised by it

there are several variations on what the literal translation means, all of which are derogatory

however it can be a nightmare filling out govt forms as there is no catagory for nz citizens, you can either be catagorised as a ****** or you have to catagorise yourself as other - this is in essense institutional racism

There actually isn't a literal translation of it.
The best evidence I've read says it is a contraction of Pakepakeha, which refers to spirit people (who are pale skinned).

Would you rather be named after a small Danish province on the North Sea?

[davereid]

however it can be a nightmare filling out govt forms as there is no catagory for nz citizens, you can either be catagorised as a ****** or you have to catagorise yourself as other - this is in essense institutional racism

I just fill it out as pacific islander.

Cos NZ is a lot of islands in the pacific, so it must be the best choice.

And thats how how multiple choice works - like the instructions say, several answers may seem correct but choose the best one.

[popelli]

Would you rather be named after a small Danish province on the North Sea?

wasn't that a dutch province?

[Mom]

Hahahahahahah! At least you're not a mullet sporting Nova Scotian. Hahahahahahahahaha.

Funny you should mention mullets, sadly there were a few of those visible last time I visited back home :crazy:

I liken my whanau to a cross between a demented Scot and a very laid back East Coast fisherman. My father was a Scot too, did not help my case really :sunny:

Probably the most disturbing thing I came across visiting the back waters (I kid you not here, they really are back waters) of New Foundland, was a cousin of the several removed variety proudly showing me his frozen baby seal carcasses in the freezer, and asking if I was staying for a while so he could share the delicacy :shutup: Sadly I was moving on. The best part about the visit, he lived in a village called Hearts Content. I would love to live somewhere called that.

[Oscar]

wasn't that a dutch province?

On reflection it probably is Zeeland in Holland (being as how Abel Tasman was Dutch).
However the one in Denmark has the correct spelling....






...and anyway, as the Nigel Powers said: "There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch..."

[peasea]

not all stupid people are darkies...

You're sure of that?

Just asking.

...aksking..

..arksking....

[peasea]

Well now that you mention that. I was born in Montreal but my family are from Newfoundland. There are more than a few Newfie jokes around, no doubt there will be someone along to enlighten you soon :D


Gosh, I hope so, nothing like a bit of white-on-white (or thereabouts) racism to start the party...........

[peasea]

On reflection it probably is Zeeland in Holland (being as how Abel Tasman was Dutch).
However the one in Denmark has the correct spelling....






...and anyway, as the Nigel Powers said: "There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch..."

You're making an azzumption.

[peasea]

There actually isn't a literal translation of it.
The best evidence I've read says it is a contraction of Pakepakeha, which refers to spirit people (who are pale skinned).

Would you rather be named after a small Danish province on the North Sea?

That's what I've found and those people were "not our people" but they were here before "those" people.

[Mikkel]

I'm a Kiwi/NZer and bloody proud to be one!

Why? I mean, what have you done to be a Kiwi?

I always struggled with patriotism... what's the point of being proud of being something you have had no influence upon whatsoever. You might as well be proud of the fact that the universal gravitational constant is 6.67428*10^-11 m^3/(kg*s^2).

Being proud of something you've actually achieved for yourself leads to arrogance at the best of times - being proud of something you haven't done anything for is even more ridiculous.


On reflection it probably is Zeeland in Holland (being as how Abel Tasman was Dutch).
However the one in Denmark has the correct spelling....

If we do want to be pedantic - it's actually spelled Sjælland and it isn't in Nordsøen (the water between Jylland and Norway), but in Kattegat (between Jylland and Sweden).

[Oscar]

If we do want to be pedantic - it's actually spelled Sjælland and it isn't in Nordsøen (the water between Jylland and Norway), but in Kattegat (between Jylland and Sweden).

Being pedantic?
On KB?
It'll never catch on....

[davebullet]

We are all individuals really. No two people are alike. I could probably meet a murderer and have just as much in common as someone who likes to dress up for a mardi gras.

[DMNTD]

Being pedantic?
On KB?
It'll never catch on....

Anal has though... :buggerd:

[mister.koz]

I reckon classification beyond "new zealander" or "kiwi" isn't really necessary, i mean sure be proud of who you are and where you come from but why classify? If someone uses their ethnicity as brownie points i'd sooner tell them to get stuffed and thats ANYONE.

Self-proclaimed underdogs or elitists are exactly the same; they take something that is not so important (and can't be changed) and use it to push people down. Its like being a prick to people over 5'8" what are they going to do? shrink? Its just another excuse for people to lift themselves up on whatever they can.

I say just be.

[Owl]

I don't give a shit what people call me:whocares: At work it's usually asshole or nigger, so pakeha would seem quite tame!:yes:

[mister.koz]

Why? I mean, what have you done to be a Kiwi?

I always struggled with patriotism... what's the point of being proud of being something you have had no influence upon whatsoever. You might as well be proud of the fact that the universal gravitational constant is 6.67428*10^-11 m^3/(kg*s^2).

Being proud of something you've actually achieved for yourself leads to arrogance at the best of times - being proud of something you haven't done anything for is even more ridiculous.

I am proud to be a New Zealander; its a cool little country, warts 'n all.

I've spent years practicing to be a New Zealander, 28.8 years in total! My mate down the road at the fish and chip shop has been a New Zealander for 34 years (he's from china originally - and still doesn't get the slang) and he's proud too.

Arrogance only comes when its at other people's expense or when your pride is totally ignorant of the other options.

Why is it bad to be proud of something you are part of?

[mowgli]

My mate down the road at the fish and chip shop has been a New Zealander for 34 years (he's from china originally - and still doesn't get the slang) and he's proud too.
Yeah no yeah love fush n chups.

[wbks]

Why? I mean, what have you done to be a Kiwi?

I always struggled with patriotism... what's the point of being proud of being something you have had no influence upon whatsoever. You might as well be proud of the fact that the universal gravitational constant is 6.67428*10^-11 m^3/(kg*s^2).

Being proud of something you've actually achieved for yourself leads to arrogance at the best of times - being proud of something you haven't done anything for is even more ridiculous.
You're looking at it all wrong! You're proud of a nice painting you made, you can also be proud of something you're a part of; like, sayyyyyyy little ol' New Zealand for instance...

[Naki Rat]

.....Probably the most disturbing thing I came across visiting the back waters (I kid you not here, they really are back waters) of New Foundland, was a cousin of the several removed variety proudly showing me his frozen baby seal carcasses in the freezer, and asking if I was staying for a while so he could share the delicacy :shutup: Sadly I was moving on. The best part about the visit, he lived in a village called Hearts Content. I would love to live somewhere called that.

There's always Screech (http://www.screechrum.com/) to liven up life on 'The Rock' :drinknsin

(I spent most of 2004 living in the Annapolis Valley;):niceone:

[Mom]

There's always Screech (http://www.screechrum.com/) to liven up life on 'The Rock' :drinknsin

Have you ever tasted that shit? Far canal, I have a couple of uncles who thought it would be funny to see what I was like after a couple, wow!

My Mother was bragging last night, she had just received a packet of hard tack from her brother. For the uninitiated it is a rock solid lump of black bread. Requires soaking to be able to eat it. MAF opened the parcel, but let it come through.

[MSTRS]

My Mother was bragging last night, she had just received a packet of hard tack from her brother. For the uninitiated it is a rock solid lump of black bread. Requires soaking to be able to eat it. MAF opened the parcel, but let it come through.

That'll be the coal dust. Bet it doesn't have extra folate....

[idleidolidyll]

I have no problem with the word; only with the misuse of it.

Pakeha is used by some in racist attacks on white people and an accusation

Of course its all nonsense. According to a Maori mate of mine; Brits are Pakeha, so are Indians, Africans and Chinese.

My understanding is that pre 1769, when Maori only had other Maori to compare themselves with, the word 'Maori' just meant 'ordinary people' (in their understanding of people). This is common with societies that have not had contact with other 'races'. They always have a word to describe people in general and it is not until after contact that they coin a word to mean 'others' or 'not ordinary people' in order to differentiate themselves from the newcomers.

When the Brits arrived there was no word to describe the difference and the word Pakeha was coined and then extended to all people who are not Maori. It wasn't coined as a racist description.
Sadly it is used that way far too often and when I tell Indians etc that they too are 'Pakeha' they are horrified and say "No! I'm not a bloody racist white man" or something similar.

As often happens, common use has perverted word meaning again. The same can be seen around political words like capitalist, communist and socialist etc; the real definitions are lost in propoganda or altered by vox populi

[SARGE]

Just interested in what most people think of being called a Pakeha? Do you call yourself a Pakeha? Or prefer to be called a NZ European? Or just a Kiwi?

never been called any of those .. bloody Yank i dont have a problem with though

been called worse



Why? I mean, what have you done to be a Kiwi?

I always struggled with patriotism... what's the point of being proud of being something you have had no influence upon whatsoever. You might as well be proud of the fact that the universal gravitational constant is 6.67428*10^-11 m^3/(kg*s^2).

Being proud of something you've actually achieved for yourself leads to arrogance at the best of times - being proud of something you haven't done anything for is even more ridiculous.

.

im a Patriotic Yank.. but then again ...i HAVE contributed to the greater good .. i guess thats the difference ...

[jrandom]

bloody Yank

Don't you think it's about time you washed it off?

[jrandom]

As far as I know racism as only really been thought of since the 17th Century

... but you're doing your best to make up for that?

[SARGE]

Don't you think it's about time you washed it off?

savin it for later ..your Mum is coming over ....

[Owl]

savin it for later ..your Mum is coming over ....

Bloody Yank!:rolleyes:

[idleidolidyll]

Originally Posted by Grahameeboy http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/bgold/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1129310739#post1129310739)
As far as I know racism as only really been thought of since the 17th Century



... but you're doing your best to make up for that?

maybe the word itself but the sentiment, the hatred and mistrust has been around ever since humans started to think of themselves as disparate groups instead of as all much the same.

as we all know, Christians in particular have exhibited and exercised massive racism for several thousands of years. Of course for the first few hundred of those years they were the victims of racism but that all changed drastically later on

[jrandom]

as we all know, Christians in particular have exhibited and exercised massive racism for several thousands of years. Of course for the first few hundred of those years they were the victims of racism but that all changed drastically later on

<img src="http://www.qwantz.com/comics/comic2-1424.png"/>

[pritch]

The word maori, if put in its proper orignal context, really means ordinary.


Exactly. Pre European maori identified themselves by hapu or iwi, there was no need for a collective noun until somebody different appeared. At that stage they started to refer to themselves as normal or ordinary and thus "maori".

[Mikkel]

I am proud to be a New Zealander; its a cool little country, warts 'n all.

Nothing wrong with the country. But in which way does your being born here infer any credit upon your person?


I've spent years practicing to be a New Zealander, 28.8 years in total! My mate down the road at the fish and chip shop has been a New Zealander for 34 years (he's from china originally - and still doesn't get the slang) and he's proud too.

Considering that, how does the fact that racism is alive and well in NZ make you feel?


Arrogance only comes when its at other people's expense or when your pride is totally ignorant of the other options.

How can pride ever come at the expense of others? It's a mental state - how you come about it is irrelevant in regards to what pride is.


Why is it bad to be proud of something you are part of?

I didn't say bad - I merely said I don't understand why people would ever feel proud of something they haven't done anything for. For the majority of the NZ-born population of NZ, being a Kiwi is not even something they have chosen for themselves.


You're looking at it all wrong! You're proud of a nice painting you made, you can also be proud of something you're a part of; like, sayyyyyyy little ol' New Zealand for instance...

I didn't say you couldn't be proud of it - I just said it makes no sense to be(to me anyway). At least not unless you go above and beyond the call of duty and actively choose to work for the cause of being part of New Zealand.

If you look at the definitions of pride (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pride) and proud (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proud) there are definitely some negative overtones.

[Grahameeboy]

... but you're doing your best to make up for that?

You what?......................

[mister.koz]

Nothing wrong with the country. But in which way does your being born here infer any credit upon your person?
I don't want credit, i am just proud to be a new zealander.


Considering that, how does the fact that racism is alive and well in NZ make you feel?

Racism is crap regardless of country, although blood/heritage contributes allot to your upbringing it doesn't make you who you are.


How can pride ever come at the expense of others? It's a mental state - how you come about it is irrelevant in regards to what pride is.

Pride becomes arrogance when people use it to project themselves as something better than everyone else - i.e. i am proud to be -whatever- and your not so your crap.


I didn't say bad - I merely said I don't understand why people would ever feel proud of something they haven't done anything for. For the majority of the NZ-born population of NZ, being a Kiwi is not even something they have chosen for themselves.

You can be proud to be part of something, you don't have to contribute allot or even choose to be part of it.


I didn't say you couldn't be proud of it - I just said it makes no sense to be(to me anyway). At least not unless you go above and beyond the call of duty and actively choose to work for the cause of being part of New Zealand.

Define the cause of new zealand?


If you look at the definitions of pride (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pride) and proud (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proud) there are definitely some negative overtones.

There's negative undertones to everything, you have proven that you can extract negative and complicated undertones out of very simple things. Have a gold star and be smug.

[wbks]

I didn't say you couldn't be proud of it - I just said it makes no sense to be(to me anyway). At least not unless you go above and beyond the call of duty and actively choose to work for the cause of being part of New Zealand.

If you look at the definitions of pride (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pride) and proud (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proud) there are definitely some negative overtones.
So you contribute to NZ? Everyone who has lived in NZ has contributed in some way. Is it really so hard to see why someone would be proud that they are part of a group of people that have accomplished some great things
. What is "the cause", specifically? It is kind of a nice thought that everyone who hasn't contributed, or has a negative balance in contribution be considered not a kiwi, and shipped out of the country... Maybe everyone who doesn't contribute a quarter of their produce they grow to the govt should be jailed, starting monday...

[idleidolidyll]

Ya know what, I don't care what Maori claim; I am Tangata Whenua. I was born here and have no other place that I call home. Call me Pakeha if you wish but never deny that I originate from this land and never claim that I am less than another or should have less rights just because they have a few more generations than me. BTW: Maori immigration to NZ didn't start and end 1500 or 1000 years ago; it was a constant and there may even be Maori who have less generations in NZ than Pakeha.

So, Maori didn't originate here and neither did my people; the only difference is the number of generations.

I don't buy into the apartheid wording often used and I reject all rights that are assigned to only one group of people.

If Maori claim that they can take, for instance, extra food from the sea because they are having a meeting or celebration, then ALL Kiwis should be given the same right.

That said, I DO support all genuine Maori land claims (if their land was stolen, they should be compensated or have the land returned) and as mentioned, I expect that the direct beneficiaries should pay the money or land back not all taxpayers equally. That might mean I do pay a little in taxes but it also means that some of the original Pakeha families should pay a lot more. As for claims that the land is worth more now than when they sold it (if legitimately); Nah! I can't go get extra money on my old house because it has since risen in value under new ownership and I reject the idea that a single ethnic group can do so.

[Grahameeboy]

Ya know what, I don't care what Maori claim; I am Tangata Whenua. I was born here and have no other place that I call home. Call me Pakeha if you wish but never deny that I originate from this land and never claim that I am less than another or should have less rights just because they have a few more generations than me. BTW: Maori immigration to NZ didn't start and end 1500 or 1000 years ago; it was a constant and there may even be Maori who have less generations in NZ than Pakeha.

So, Maori didn't originate here and neither did my people; the only difference is the number of generations.

I don't buy into the apartheid wording often used and I reject all rights that are assigned to only one group of people.

If Maori claim that they can take, for instance, extra food from the sea because they are having a meeting or celebration, then ALL Kiwis should be given the same right.

That said, I DO support all genuine Maori land claims (if their land was stolen, they should be compensated or have the land returned) and as mentioned, I expect that the direct beneficiaries should pay the money or land back not all taxpayers equally. That might mean I do pay a little in taxes but it also means that some of the original Pakeha families should pay a lot more. As for claims that the land is worth more now than when they sold it (if legitimately); Nah! I can't go get extra money on my old house because it has since risen in value under new ownership and I reject the idea that a single ethnic group can do so.

+1 Sir

Do you consider that the land that was part of the treaty was stolen or that it was purchased, swapped or whatever..just the meaning of the agreement is an issue..if that makes sense.

[idleidolidyll]

+1 Sir

Do you consider that the land that was part of the treaty was stolen or that it was purchased, swapped or whatever..just the meaning of the agreement is an issue..if that makes sense.

You can't even begin to go down that road until you clarify the treaty itself.

There are 2 main versions and I hold that some Maori did not understand the English translation. However, I also hold that some did given that Maori had already been travelling to Western nations for decades before it was signed (many Maori Chiefs sent emissaries to find out all about the outside world) and some understood the western concept of ownership.

So what does that mean? It means that there are some truly genuine claims and some that may not be. It means that there were probably rip offs on both sides and crooks on both sides.

Chuck the whole thing out the window and start again: all people are equal BUT any land claims are still arguable in a court of law

[Grahameeboy]

Chuck the whole thing out the window and start again: all people are equal BUT any land claims are still arguable in a court of law

Great idea.............hardest thing though is to let go which I suspect is an issue....