LTSA Stuff I hadn't picked up on.

[James Deuce]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3231602a11,00.html

Demerit pts for riding in the service lane on motorways!!

[White trash]

Simple. Don't stop.

Fuck 'em.

[outlawtorn]

I wonder how many bikers were consulted about the rules, or if they were even thought of!

[vifferman]

"We have entered into the spirit of things and are using this time as a period for the public to become aware of changes. That's not to say we aren't handing out tickets, but we are giving drivers an opportunity to learn the rules."
"The spirit of things"?!?!? WTF is that supposed to mean? :spudwhat:
"We have got out the big whacking stick. Again. My, how we did laugh!! You should have seen the look on old Granny's face, when we gave her a ticket for $150 and 10 points because her crappy old Corolla's indicator stalk baulked at having to be engaged when the steering wheel was turned. What a laugh! We were very disappointed we couldn't find a reason to give her a good old truncheoning!"

Seriously though, considering there are three "E's", it's a pity it's still much easier for Andy Knackersack and co to concentrate on Enforcement rather than Education. And coincidentally (?) it's much more profitable too.

I agree that people's driving skills have vast room for improvement, but I think a BIG education campaign should have preceded this latest walloping campaign.

Furthermore, I went driving with each of my boys in the weekend, and while I agree with the principle of the 'indicate your intentions at roundabouts' rules, in practice it's bloody difficult, especially on small roundabouts. Also, the mechanics of some indicators make it damned near impossible to use them while the steering wheel is turned, or so we discovered.

[**R1**]

Simple. Don't stop.

Fuck 'em.Why dont you get bad reps and endless abuse for saying that?

good plan tho, since i stoped stopping, i havnt had any tickets.

[White trash]

Why dont you get bad reps and endless abuse for saying that?



'Cause I'm me. You can give me some red bling if ya want mate.

[sedge]

Why dont you get bad reps and endless abuse for saying that?

good plan tho, since i stoped stopping, i havnt had any tickets.

It's coz we all know that in real life WT ALWAYS stops for the cops.

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..


It's the ambulances that give him the heebie jeebies.

[TwoSeven]

I'd like to get them to change that left hand side rule (or at least define it better than they have). Buggered if I'm going to put up with getting points for not driving in the suicide zone.

[Waylander]

I'd like to get them to change that left hand side rule (or at least define it better than they have). Buggered if I'm going to put up with getting points for not driving in the suicide zone.
I agree with you there. I'll ride in the left lane unless passing like the signs say but I'll be damned if I'm gonna ride in the left side of the lane aswell. Too many cagers thinkin I'm lettin them pass.

[inlinefour]

I thought it was allways that way and common sense...

[Skyryder]

Your Honour. A roundabout is an intersection. At this intersection I have three choices. I can turn left and indicate my intention of doing so. I can trun right and also indicate my intentions of doing so. Or i can go straight ahead.

Officer if I am going straight ahead why would I indicate that I am turning to the left and to the right?

Can't wait for the fucker who gives me a ticket for this. There's just no way I am going to confuse drivers on a roundabout. Said it once will say it again. I am not going to add to their confusion some are confused enough as it is.

Skyryder

[WINJA]

Simple. Don't stop.

Fuck 'em.
ROGER THAT, IM IN THIS CLUB

[Waylander]

ROGER THAT, IM IN THIS CLUB
Yes WINJA we know you are....

[Skyryder]

I thought it was allways that way and common sense...

So did I but LTNZ have decreed that we do not have any common sense. Wonder where they got that idea from.

Skyryder

[Jantar]

I would like to know just how they define a roundabout? Does it have to have a raised and curbed traffic island in the middle? Is a simple raised and painted area sufficient, or how about a small circle of road marking?

In Queenstown there is normal four road intersection with a one meter diameter circle of road marking raised in the middle. Technically this a round about. However if you are going straight ahead then at no stage do you need to deviate from a straight line. Once you have passed the exit on your left, you have already exited the roundabout. It is not physically possile to obey the rule and indicate to left prior to your intende exit.

In Gore Ther is a roundabout (actually a number of them) in the more traditional sense in that it has a raised and curbed traffic island in the middle. It is also in a 60 kmh area, and the distance between passing the exit on your left and entering your own exit is 6 meters. At 60 kmh you have exactly 0.35 seconds to decide that you have passed the previous exit, and to indicate your intentions to exit the roundabout. If you are able to actually indicate and get a single flash from your indicators, how much time have other road users got to react to your indication? I tried it on the Gore roundabouts, and was usually off the roundabout before the indicators gave their first flash. :confused:

[FROSTY]

dude there is no choice--you MUST obey the law--from now on you must stay on the roundabout until u have indicated for three seconds.
round a round the mulbury bush.

[Ixion]

The consultants who punted this for the LTSA are in Christchurch.

I wrote to them pointing out that their ideas were unworkable on any beyond the most simplistic of roundabouts.

I received this polite but unencouraging reply.

I agree, there are many
roundabouts out there that are more complicated; I have often used the two
Auckland examples you mention. However, the guideline does not purport to
be a 'design guide' but a way of introducing "Alberta' exit lane and
'spiral curve' pavement markings on new or existing multi-lane roundabouts
where this is considered appropriate. The aim is to provide guidelines
that will assist designers in the correct use of these two traffic control
devices.

I am aware that there are a considerable number of roundabouts in our towns
and cities that have more than 4 legs. However, given the limits on the
available space available, multi-lane roundabouts with more than five legs
with little or no separation between legs, are compromised and would be
difficult to retrofit with 'Alberta' exit lane or spiral curve pavement
markings. I wouldn't mind having a go though - perhaps you could supply
an aerial or plan of such a roundabout?

I have attached a proposal for new pavement markings in the Sockburn
roundabout in Christchurch which has 5 legs and handles around 60,000
vehicle movements a day. The proposed spiral curve pavement markings would
take some of the confusion away for motorists already in the roundabout
enabling them to choose the correct lane to exit without needing to first
change lanes whilst circulating the roundabout.

Regards,
Brian Neill
MWH Christchurch
Ph 03 343 8790

[James Deuce]

Typical stuff Ixion. Waffle on and load the burden of proof on you.

[madboy]

More non-sensical bollocks from LTNZ. I'll renew my subscription to the WhiteTrash theory thanks.

Just think over the weekend all the speed related carnage on the roads - the LTNZ couldn't have planned it better. Not making light of a few senseless deaths, but Andy would have been taking a firm grip on himself as he, ummm, salivated, over the statistics that can be skewed out of those deaths.

I can imagine the talk down the pub now - the hardcore sportsbikers will be swapping stories about who's got the biggest, umm, fine... and little johnny will pipe up and admit that he's just been disqualified... on demerit points... yep - he didn't indicate when proceeding straight through four roundabouts in the last two years and now he's disq for 3 months!

[Jantar]

dude there is no choice--you MUST obey the law--from now on you must stay on the roundabout until u have indicated for three seconds.
round a round the mulbury bush.

Hey, I hadn't even thought of that idea. What a great way to obey the law. Ummm just too bad that all the other users of the roundabout will have no idea as to just which exit I intend using. :shifty:

[bugjuice]

service lane = hard shoulder?

[Wolf]

[font=Courier New]
I agree that people's driving skills have vast room for improvement, but I think a BIG education campaign should have preceded this latest walloping campaign..
I concur. The article mentioned that the advertising was helping - what effing advertising? Until I read that article I did not realise there were so many "new" rules and most of the rule changes I've picked up have been from reading discussions on KB (good thing I'm not driving/riding at the mo', eh) I have not noticed any advertising as such (lots of "quit smoking" ads on TV and lots of "buy our booze" ads, but no "Hey, there are thirty-odd new road rules you oughta be aware of!" ads only traffic ads are "speeders are killing us" (hardly any "don't drink and drive" ads at the mo'))

The point you raise re the indicator cut-off is also valid. I try to indicate at roundabouts but indicating left when the wheel is turned to the right usually means the slightest twitch on the steering wheel turns off the indicator. This usually means needing to grow an extra arm to hold the indicator in place while you use the other two to safely drive around the roundabout.

[Wolf]

So did I but LTNZ have decreed that we do not have any common sense. Wonder where they got that idea from.

Skyryder
And the answer, for thirty points, is:

cagers!

[James Deuce]

service lane = hard shoulder?
Yup, or emergency lane, or the big stripey white lines used as virtual traffic islands.

[James Deuce]

The roundabout indication is a ballsed up implementation of the UK law where you have to indicate on and off a roundabout. However you don't have to do it if you care going straight through. Multi lane assymetric roundabouts (3 or 5 or 7 entries and exits) are a bit different though. I think indicating an exit if going straight through is reasonable, but indicating on entry if continuing straight on is confusing. Also there aren't that many roundabouts in NZ where you can indicate for 3 seconds before you exit.

The education has been hopeless. They've more than doubled the offenses that attract demerit points. We should really have had new Road Codes posted to us free of charge.

[Pwalo]

What the hell is an 'Alberta' exit lane? And does this mean that they are proposing to put more slippery road markings at roundabouts?

I still can't see what's so wrong with driver education. IMHO it still seems that most accidents are caused by bad or inattentive driving/riding rather than any other single factor. But then again like you guys I only use the roads every day so I'm obviously not as qualified as our LTSNZ boys.

Whoops I must need another coffee. Still might pay to visit the old LTSA site just to see how many ways there are to use your licence, and how many fines have been increased.

[James Deuce]

What the hell is an 'Alberta' exit lane? And does this mean that they are proposing to put more slippery road markings at roundabouts?

I still can't see what's so wrong with driver education. IMHO it still seems that most accidents are caused by bad or inattentive driving/riding rather than any other single factor. But then again like you guys I only use the roads every day so I'm obviously not as qualified as our LTSNZ boys.

Whoops I must need another coffee. Still might pay to visit the old LTSA site just to see how many ways there are to use your licence, and how many fines have been increased.
They've gone from 15 offences attrracting demerit points to 32. The majority of the additional ones have $150 fines.

[Pixie]

dude there is no choice--you MUST obey the law--from now on you must stay on the roundabout until u have indicated for three seconds.
round a round the mulbury bush.
I already do that,but I get dizzy.so every second roundabout I go around in the opposite direction

[Pixie]

They've gone from 15 offences attrracting demerit points to 32. The majority of the additional ones have $150 fines.
...as traffic gets slower the only way to maintain income is to:
1.lower the speed limit
2.introduce new ways to fine motorists
3.sell drugs/ your mum

[Motu]

New WoF lighting rules became law on 27 Feb,we are supposed to start implementing the rules tomorrow - the regs are still at the printers and I haven't recieved mine yet....I'm gunna feel like fool tomorrow....

[Lou Girardin]

What's the problem with indicating at roundabouts?
If you take the first exit - indicate left as you approach the roundabout.
Straight through - only indicate left as you approach the exit.
Right turns indicate right as you approach the roundabout.
Too bloody simple. If they bring in retesting of all drivers, some of you guys are in trouble.

[James Deuce]

What's the problem with indicating at roundabouts?
If you take the first exit - indicate left as you approach the roundabout.
Straight through - only indicate left as you approach the exit.
Right turns indicate right as you approach the roundabout.
Too bloody simple. If they bring in retesting of all drivers, some of you guys are in trouble.
Ahh yes, but I rang the AA and LTNZ this morning and both told me I have to indicate when entering a roundabout if I am going straight through. How does that work?

I have no issue with the above process, but that isn't how it works under the current rule. Which is different to how I'd interpreted it Lou, which is what you said. Incidentally, I've been doing this since I came back from the UK, as I thought it made good sense.

[Waylander]

Ahh yes, but I rang the AA and LTNZ this morning and both told me I have to indicate when entering a roundabout if I am going straight through. How does that work?

I have no issue with the above process, but that isn't how it works under the current rule.

Well with the exception of Hitcher, common sense and government officials have never played well together.

[jrandom]

Ahh yes, but I rang the AA and LTNZ this morning and both told me I have to indicate when entering a roundabout if I am going straight through. How does that work?

I have no issue with the above process...

I do. badlieutenant was doing it in front of me when we rode back up to Auckland on the weekend, and it confused me terribly; I had no idea whether he was planning to go straight through each roundabout or fang off into the wilderness to the right somewhere. I was going all wobbly trying to keep my roundabout-exiting options open as I followed him.

I think it's a dreadful rule, and I will be continuing to *not* indicate when I enter a roundabout to go straight through (and indicate left on exit, of course), simply because I think it's safer and makes more sense.

[Ixion]

Well with the exception of Hitcher, common sense and government officials have never played well together.

My information differs. My understanding is that if you are going straight through (begging the question of what straight through *means* when it isn't a nice 90 degree angle) you should *not* indicate on entering the roundabout , but should indicate left before exiting (after passing the 9 oclock exit). What one does if there is only a straight through and turn right I don't know.



If you are going 'straight' through a roundabout:

don't signal as you come up to the roundabout
signal left before the exit you wish to take. At some small roundabouts it may not be possible to give 3 seconds warning of you leaving but it is courteous to give as much indication as you can.

[James Deuce]

My information differs. My understanding is that if you are going straight through (begging the question of what straight through *means* when it isn't a nice 90 degree angle) you should *not* indicate on entering the roundabout , but should indicate left before exiting (after passing the 9 oclock exit). What one does if there is only a straight through and turn right I don't know.
Yes, and I had read that during the lead up to the change, but subsequent varied interpretations have revealed that there is some "confusion" over what one should do. As I have posted earlier I HAVE rung the organisations most likely to know and what they told me is at odds with the LTNZ website.

[NordieBoy]

New WoF lighting rules became law on 27 Feb,we are supposed to start implementing the rules tomorrow - the regs are still at the printers and I haven't recieved mine yet....I'm gunna feel like fool tomorrow....

Hey why not feel like a fool today!

Oh, it is tomorrow today. :confused:

[Ixion]

.....I'm gunna feel like fool tomorrow....

So - what's gonna be different about tomorrow then ? :whistle: :msn-wink:

[Lou Girardin]

Looking at it logically, which is alien to LTNZ knobheads, if you're travelling straight you do not indicate except when in the roundabout to show oncoming drivers that you are exiting.
They have put you wrong, just like they did about travelling in M/way bus lanes.
Maybe they should read a road code.
If brains were dynamite, they couldn't even blow their noses.

[spudchucka]

Lou is correct. Straight through traffic only has to indicate as they exit the round-a-bout.

[James Deuce]

Thanks Mr Chuka.

Their (AA & LTNZ) argument, in both cases was that you have to indicate for 3 seconds before completing a manouvre. There are certainly roundabouts in the UK where that is achievable. But 99.9% of roundabouts here would require you to travel at about 3km/hr to do that and fullfil the requirements of both the indicating rule, and the new roundabout rules.

I sincerely hope that most cop's take Spud's view, or we're all doomed.

[NC]

"ignoring a school patrol sign (20 points)"????????


Officer, I didn't see the kids on the crossing with the giant orange crossing lolliepop signs.

[madboy]

I have to travel through 3 roundabouts within 1.5kms of leaving home each day (fortunately I don't need to go straight through any... phew!) but none of these roundabouts are big enough to indicate your exit any earlier than 0.0037sec before leaving the roundabout while travelling at a road speed that even the most anally retentive Highway Patrol would consider normal.

Bigger roundabouts (like Melling for example) are fine, plenty of time, but the other 99.9%?

So, umm, I guess we're back relying on the discretion of the good ole 5-0 here in enforcing these rules (no, I'm not gonna have a dig at them today)

[Lou Girardin]

Lou is correct. Straight through traffic only has to indicate as they exit the round-a-bout.

Be still my beating heart. Spud said I was right!

[NC]

Be still my beating heart. Spud said I was right!
You're a cunt...

I know, you don't have to tell me I'm right.

[Lou Girardin]

Thanks Mr Chuka.

Their (AA & LTNZ) argument, in both cases was that you have to indicate for 3 seconds before completing a manouvre. There are certainly roundabouts in the UK where that is achievable. But 99.9% of roundabouts here would require you to travel at about 3km/hr to do that and fullfil the requirements of both the indicating rule, and the new roundabout rules.

I sincerely hope that most cop's take Spud's view, or we're all doomed.

OK, imagine you're approaching said roundabout. Indicate left three secs before the exit and Mr Cage thinks you're turning left and pulls out in front.
Fan-bloody-tastic, thank you to the eunuchs at AA and LTNZ. This is what happens when non-drivers make laws.

[James Deuce]

OK, imagine you're approaching said roundabout. Indicate left three secs before the exit and Mr Cage thinks you're turning left and pulls out in front.
Fan-bloody-tastic, thank you to the eunuchs at AA and LTNZ. This is what happens when non-drivers make laws.You weren't on the other end of the phone were you?

You've just quoted me exactly!

They were even more upset when I suggested that Holland and Belgium, with their plethora of velocipedes, would be thrilled to accept their expert services.

[riffer]

They were even more upset when I suggested that Holland and Belgium, with their plethora of velocipedes, would be thrilled to accept their expert services.

You're bloody lucky. Bob Gibson (LTNZ) refuses to answer my calls. :angry2:

[Fart]

NZ is turning into a communist state. There is seriously something wrong when cops are more focus on roundabouts giving out tickets and dont even attend rape and burglary cases. Where is our priories?

I am getting sick and tired of the governmenttreating the pupolation like a bunch of 8 yr olds. We do have a mind of our own to make logical and common sense decisions on a dayly basis.

:angry2:

[Waylander]

NZ is turning into a communist state. There is seriously something wrong when cops are more focus on roundabouts giving out tickets and dont even attend rape and burglary cases. Where is our priories?

I am getting sick and tired of the governmenttreating the pupolation like a bunch of 8 yr olds. We do have a mind of our own to make logical and common sense decisions on a dayly basis.

:angry2:
Well some of us anyway, givin the amount of idiot cagers (and bikers) out there. Thankfully none of them are members of this site, yet.

[Skyryder]

What's the problem with indicating at roundabouts?
If you take the first exit - indicate left as you approach the roundabout.
Straight through - only indicate left as you approach the exit.
Right turns indicate right as you approach the roundabout.
Too bloody simple. If they bring in retesting of all drivers, some of you guys are in trouble.

Not too sure about you but when I'm on a roundabout I'm a little occupied with traffic and the unexpected...........I will indicate when turning no problem but tell me officer why should I indicate when I am going straight ahead.

Skyryder

[sedge]

NZ is turning into a communist state. There is seriously something wrong when cops are more focus on roundabouts giving out tickets and dont even attend rape and burglary cases. Where is our priories?

I am getting sick and tired of the governmenttreating the pupolation like a bunch of 8 yr olds. We do have a mind of our own to make logical and common sense decisions on a dayly basis.

:angry2:

Um... Communism in itself isn't a bad thing, historically it's the flawed implementation that lets it down. Defining communism as an extension of Marxism, as NZ approached the theoretical utopian classless communist state the government would cease to exist rather than become omnipotent.

Heh heh... I've been drinking that expensive imported beer tonight, the Mrs got me some on special :)

Sedge.

[The Pastor]

I am getting sick and tired of the governmenttreating the pupolation like a bunch of 8 yr olds. We do have a mind of our own to make logical and common sense decisions on a dayly basis.

Trust me I used to work in a supermarket on checkout 99% of people are stupid num-nuts who should be castrated/nuterd/kicked in the cu*t

[wkid_one]

Not too sure about you but when I'm on a roundabout I'm a little occupied with traffic and the unexpected...........I will indicate when turning no problem but tell me officer why should I indicate when I am going straight ahead.

Skyryder

Plus, how the fuck do they expect you to adequately handbrake slid around the roundabout while skipping a track on the cd player and not spill your Tui - and indicate at the same bloody time?

[peterjdaly]

If the cops ever start dishing out tickets for this, then start to complain. Most of the cops down here have enough sense to know when not to be nit picking. When they nit pick it's normally coz they have stopped someone like winja who calls them a revenue collector. This usually causes the ticket from a single offence one into a multiple offence one.

Treat cops like trash and that's what'll happen back. One day, maybe cops will start enforcing the indicating at roundabouts thing, but down here it hasn't happened yet.

In fact, I blame the cops for some of the issues they are supposed to prevent. When the law said you had to wear a bicycle helmet, for about 6 months most people did. The rate of bikes being stolen fell, as people thought riding a stolen bike with ne helmet would see you get caught. After about 6 months though, things just went back to the same old thing, as people realised that a marked police car drives past a cyclist without a helmet and does nothing. Police inaction on an issue condones the issue.

One day someone will push them into dishing out tickets for the indicator thing, if you indicate you probably won't have an issue.

[TwoSeven]

Thanks Mr Chuka.

Their (AA & LTNZ) argument, in both cases was that you have to indicate for 3 seconds before completing a manouvre. There are certainly roundabouts in the UK where that is achievable. But 99.9% of roundabouts here would require you to travel at about 3km/hr to do that and fullfil the requirements of both the indicating rule, and the new roundabout rules.

I sincerely hope that most cop's take Spud's view, or we're all doomed.


This 3 second rule doesnt fully apply to roundabouts. If you are making a left hand turn, then you are required to indicate for 3 seconds as you approach the roundabout. It is after all, just a normal left hand turn.

Once on the roundabout you indicate LEFT as you pass the turning immediately before the one you want to take.

All exits on a roundabout are left hand turns including the straight ahead exit, so you should always be indicating (effectively to leave the roundabout).

If the exit you want is past 12oclock, then you are required to make a right hand turn first (and be in the appropriate lane) - thats the only time you can indicate right on the roundabout. Then as you get to the turning immediately before the one you want, you start to indicate left (as above) which signals to all the other drivers that you are about to leave the roundabout.

Its not a hard rule to learn and I'm surprised kiwis have so much problem with it.

[Jantar]

...All exits on a roundabout are left hand turns including the straight ahead exit, so you should always be indicating (effectively to leave the roundabout)....
.

Sorry, but not all exits are a left hand turn. This is only the case with large roundabouts like in Christchurch. The ones that only have a small raised circle in the middle of the intersection (like Queenstown) are still roundabouts, but if you are travelling straight ahead, then there is no need to deviate from a straight line at any stage. Hence there is never a left hand turn.

[spudchucka]

At least we don't have this to contend with!

[spudchucka]

Be still my beating heart. Spud said I was right!
Don't let it go to your head. :msn-wink:

[Ixion]

I have pretty much done what the new rules says always, just as a courtesy to people waiting to enter the roundabout.

The only real problem I have is the "indicate right as you enter rule". That's OK on a single lane roundabout. But what about a big 3 lane one? If you are going off well round the loop, you want to move to the inner lane .(and in theory the new lane markings will mandate it). But what happens when you need to filter over to the left in preparation for leaving at your exit. You often have to do this before passing your penultimate exit. So the law says indicate right, because you haven't yet reached the "exit before yours". But you need to indicate left because you are actually changing lanes.

It's not just a matter of cops and tickets. If there is an accident insurance can depend on who was at fault - which in turn may hinge on these indicating rules.

And I trust insurance companys less than cops .

[TwoSeven]

Sorry, but not all exits are a left hand turn. This is only the case with large roundabouts like in Christchurch. The ones that only have a small raised circle in the middle of the intersection (like Queenstown) are still roundabouts, but if you are travelling straight ahead, then there is no need to deviate from a straight line at any stage. Hence there is never a left hand turn.

Its still treated as a left turn. Just because the it looks straight and you drive straight, you still go thru the motions of a roundabout. You also should be making the effort to drive round them rather than over them.

The trick with good driving is to go. "oh, roundabout" and automatically do the motions, rather than trying to argue the technicalities of what you perceive something to be or not.

There is another good rule. "Just because you can do something, doesnt mean you should do it". i.e. You can drive over the little white circle, but that doesnt mean you should be driving over it.

You'll find that those small circles on the road are there to allow large vehicles (or bigger cars) clearence room. Not for you to just drive over because you want to.

[ManDownUnder]

ROGER THAT, IM IN THIS CLUB

.hhmmm... "club" and "winja" in the same sentence...

anyone out there able to re-arrange these words and create a NEW sentence?

[vifferman]

Its still treated as a left turn. Just because the it looks straight and you drive straight, you still go thru the motions of a roundabout. You also should be making the effort to drive round them rather than over them.
Rriiiiiight....


The trick with good driving is to go. "oh, roundabout" and automatically do the motions, rather than trying to argue the technicalities of what you perceive something to be or not.
Where's the fun in that?!? Stop being such a spoilsport!


There is another good rule. "Just because you can do something, doesnt mean you should do it". i.e. You can drive over the little white circle, but that doesnt mean you should be driving over it.
Unless you feel like it. Haven't you heard that other great rule: "Just Do It". :yes:


You'll find that those small circles on the road are there to allow large vehicles (or bigger cars) clearence room. Not for you to just drive over because you want to.
Bollix.
I will if I want to.
So there! :Pokey:

[TwoSeven]

There is a really good book (not sure if its avail in NZ.)

Motorcycle Roadcraft
The police riders manual
HMSO Publications
ISBN 0 11 340149 3
10th Edition 1988 (my old version)

I find it quite good and use it for basic road riding skills.


There is a later version available from here.
http://www.police-information.co.uk/policebooks6.html

[Lou Girardin]

Not too sure about you but when I'm on a roundabout I'm a little occupied with traffic and the unexpected...........I will indicate when turning no problem but tell me officer why should I indicate when I am going straight ahead.

Skyryder

As a courtesy to the driver ahead of you, wanting to know your intentions.

[flyin]

i was taught to consider a rounderbout as a center line and to indicate whenever entering/exiting a lane/centerline soooo indicate on and off

small roundabouts going straight through its only practical/uselful to other divers to indicate off (left )

i do like this indicate for 3 seconds idea (got a ticket for not indicating for long enough once, in a cage, the only person to see was the cop and the lady i was passing on a 2 lane rd!?!) so we should do a few rings around the roundabout before we leave.......... sounds like fun!! and good practice

[Lou Girardin]

[QUOTE=flyin

i do like this indicate for 3 seconds idea (got a ticket for not indicating for long enough once, in a cage, the only person to see was the cop and the lady i was passing on a 2 lane rd!?!) so we should do a few rings around the roundabout before we leave.......... sounds like fun!! and good practice[/QUOTE]

Did the cop have certificate of accuracy for his stopwatch?

[flyin]

yeah thats what i said...... on old hut rd headed towards the gorge in the 100km 2 lane part, i indicated out, passed her, indicated in and pulled in..... aparantly him and his buddy thought it wasn't 3 seconds..... oh well guess he was gunna give me a ticket for sumthing - i was young, and male and my car was loud aurally and visually!!

[Jantar]

Its still treated as a left turn. Just because the it looks straight and you drive straight, you still go thru the motions of a roundabout. You also should be making the effort to drive round them rather than over them.

The trick with good driving is to go. "oh, roundabout" and automatically do the motions, rather than trying to argue the technicalities of what you perceive something to be or not.

There is another good rule. "Just because you can do something, doesnt mean you should do it". i.e. You can drive over the little white circle, but that doesnt mean you should be driving over it.

You'll find that those small circles on the road are there to allow large vehicles (or bigger cars) clearence room. Not for you to just drive over because you want to.

No, You misunderstand. The small circle in the middle of the road in Queenstown is aprox 1 meter in diameter. It is not necessary to drive over it, nor is it necessary to deviate from a straight line when going through.

Because it would just be a normal cross road if it didn't have the circle in the middle, the distance available after passing the exit immediately befor the on you wish to take is the width of the foot path, or about 1.5 meters. To indicate for 3 seconds would mean your maximum speed would be 0.5 meters per second or 1.8 kmh. Come on now please be realistic. At 50 kmh the time available to indicate is 0.07 seconds.

[Skyryder]

As a courtesy to the driver ahead of you, wanting to know your intentions.

By not signalling I am giving the driver my intentions. I am going straight ahead. Seems to work on normal intersections why not on roundabouts??

Skyryder

[TwoSeven]

This 3 second rule doesnt fully apply to roundabouts. If you are making a left hand turn, then you are required to indicate for 3 seconds as you approach the roundabout. It is after all, just a normal left hand turn.


The right hand turn on a roundabout is also the three second rule for the right hand indication, then not for the following left hand turn.

You do realise you indicate as you approach the roundabout dont you. Hopefully your not dumb enough to wait until your on it before you indicate :)

I notice they have been removing those mini-roundabouts in christchurch recently. Obviously figured out how pointless they are.

[TwoSeven]

By not signalling I am giving the driver my intentions. I am going straight ahead. Seems to work on normal intersections why not on roundabouts??

Skyryder

The problem is that more often than not, you are the only one that knows you are going straight ahead. To just about everyone else at the other exits, your doing a left hand turn.

[James Deuce]

By not signalling I am giving the driver my intentions. I am going straight ahead. Seems to work on normal intersections why not on roundabouts??

Skyryder

Because most people are too stupid to actually be bothered with things like intuition or uncommon sense. Can't call it common sense, because common is the opposite of rare, which would mean that the correct definition of "common sense" is stupidity.


The problem is that more often than not, you are the only one that knows you are going straight ahead. To just about everyone else at the other exits, your doing a left hand turn.

You could do what I saw some plonker in Lower Hutt doing on Saturday and just hit the hazards at every roundabout you come too. Stops the traffic flow dead.

[Skyryder]

The problem is that more often than not, you are the only one that knows you are going straight ahead. To just about everyone else at the other exits, your doing a left hand turn.

Well I am unable to speak for others but if a car is not indicating then I will make the assumption that it is not turning. If I have any doubt on the other vehicles intentions then I will revert to what they teach on Defensive Driving courses. I will drive defensively. Now if said car makes a turn and has not indicated then I can get a bit pissied off. But...........if said car does not turn and has not indicated what have I to be pissed off about? Nothing. So why should other vehicles be upset about my not indicting when I am going straight ahead.



Skyryder

[Lou Girardin]

Assumptions kill people. Personally I wait until I'm sure what their intentions are. Even if someones indicating I wait to see the start to turn.

[Wolf]

Assumptions kill people. Personally I wait until I'm sure what their intentions are. Even if someones indicating I wait to see the start to turn.
Likewise. I've seen too many numb-nuts driving down the road with their indicator on, or flick it on then change what passes for their mind, for me to trust other people''s indicating. They've got to slow and commit before I do anything.

[Clockwork]

Not too sure about you but when I'm on a roundabout I'm a little occupied with traffic and the unexpected...........I will indicate when turning no problem but tell me officer why should I indicate when I am going straight ahead.

Skyryder

When I approach a roundabout I don't know or care where the guy approaching from my right entered the roundabout, only want to know if he is exiting down the road I am entering from or not. Frankly I just want to see an indication left or right. None of this "I'll leave them off and you just guess which way I am gong to go"

[Jantar]

You do realise you indicate as you approach the roundabout dont you. Hopefully your not dumb enough to wait until your on it before you indicate :)


The new rules require you to indicate "left" before entering the roundabout if and only if you are turning left off the roundabout at the first exit. You indicate "Right" before entering the roundabout if and only if you are turning right off the roundabout. You do not indicate at all before entering the roundabout if you are going straight ahead. You are supposed to indicate "Left" as soon asoon as you pass the exit imediately prior to one you wish to take.

So in fact if you are heading straight ahead, then by law "you MUST be dumb enough to wait until your on it before you indicate ". How else can you do it?

[vifferman]

Of course, the rules are completely different in D'Auckland. Here you must use your confirminator after turning, and then only momentarily, just to confirm that your turn wasn't the (involuntary) result of poking yourself in the eye with the mascara brush, dropping your cellphone, or pouring hot coffee in your lap.

Other rules are:

When using a multilane roundabout, be sure you are in the lane which appears to be moving fastest. Usually this is the innermost lane, due to its smaller diameter, but sometimes the greater curvature of the outer lane ensures a faster terminal velocity. Change lanes several times if necessary to confirm this. Do not indicate while lane changing, but give a cheery wave/rude salute if anyone tootles you.
If you are not sure which roundabout lane is the fastest-moving one, drive with two wheels in each one until you have made your decision. (Note that having decided on a lane does not commit you to being in that lane.)
If you're not sure which exit you are taking, use both indicators alternately, in random fashion, swerve violently a few times, then take advantage of the clear space this creates to slip in another CD, do some urgent housework, apply makeup, or fix yourself a meal.
Do not under any circumstances indicate your intention to leave the roundabout, but do confirm that leaving the roundabout was not a mistake. Other motorists will take advantage of you if you do use your indicators prematurely. Instead, swerve down your chosen exit at the last possible moment, and with the greatest escape velocity achievable.
Upon leaving the roundabout, drive as slowly as possible, especially if the roundabout exit was also a motorway onramp. This ensures that drivers behind you have time to gather their thoughts, repair their makeup, or start on the second course of their meal.

[Ixion]

Of course, the rules are completely different in D'Auckland. Here you must use your confirminator after turning, and then only momentarily, just to confirm that your turn wasn't the (involuntary) result of poking yourself in the eye with the mascara brush, dropping your cellphone, or pouring hot coffee in your lap.
..

Or, as spotted recently by Mrs Ixion, **on the notorious Panmure roundabout, no less**, instead of making the long and tiresome journey around the entire roundabout, when you need to turn right, simply drive *the wrong way round* the roundabout. Thus your desired turnoff will be the first one you come to, instead of the last. Think of the time saving. Then drive off, you and you passenger both giggling. Yes, ethnicity is what you suspect it to be.

[Milky]

By not signalling I am giving the driver my intentions. I am going straight ahead. Seems to work on normal intersections why not on roundabouts??

Skyryder

There be a problem with this in the case of the end of my street. The centreline of the road curves to the right, and there are two exits to the 'left' - one straight ahead, the other a 90 degree left turn. If one were to follow your practice and not indicate when leaving the centreline but going straight ahead, it follows that, for the purpose of differentiating your movements, one must indicate right to contine following the centerline. Following this to it's logical conclusion means that we need to indicate right around right hand bends, and left around left hand bends, just incase some one assumes that we will not be turning the steering wheel.
Methinks the rationale of indicating deviations from the centreline is the better one of the two ;)

[Skyryder]

When I approach a roundabout I don't know or care where the guy approaching from my right entered the roundabout, only want to know if he is exiting down the road I am entering from or not. Frankly I just want to see an indication left or right. None of this "I'll leave them off and you just guess which way I am gong to go"

So what do you expect at a normal intersection. Don't tell me. The indicator on in the dirction of the turn. If it is not on then the vehicle is going straight ahead. So why should a roundabout be any different??

Skyryder

[Waylander]

It's all a moot (SP) point anyway. Most Cagers (and a few bikers) don't use thier indicators anyway so why argue about it?

[Skyryder]

There be a problem with this in the case of the end of my street. The centreline of the road curves to the right, and there are two exits to the 'left' - one straight ahead, the other a 90 degree left turn. If one were to follow your practice and not indicate when leaving the centreline but going straight ahead, it follows that, for the purpose of differentiating your movements, one must indicate right to contine following the centerline. Following this to it's logical conclusion means that we need to indicate right around right hand bends, and left around left hand bends, just incase some one assumes that we will not be turning the steering wheel.
Methinks the rationale of indicating deviations from the centreline is the better one of the two ;)

You raise an interesting point that applies to the odd intersection here and there. You fail to mention if there is a roundabout or not so I shall presume..... not. If you are exiting from a main road and that exit entails a ..... no change of direction, (as one of the roads you described)....... then you are deemed to be making a left hand turn and the right hand rule applies

If you are entering the main road from the straight ahead road, you give way to me. I am not required to indicate even though I am changing direction. I will admit that, not knowing the intersection you describe it may vey well be prudent for me to do so, in the said circumstances. However having said that I am still of the opinion that to indicate a turn when not turning is dangerous and I for one will not be risking my life for some dickhead law.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

It's all a moot (SP) point anyway. Most Cagers (and a few bikers) don't use thier indicators anyway so why argue about it?

I agree AD. It just seems a pity that the police do not enforce the current indicator laws instead of a new one that is uneccessary.

Skyryder.

[Skyryder]

The new rules require you to indicate "left" before entering the roundabout if and only if you are turning left off the roundabout at the first exit. You indicate "Right" before entering the roundabout if and only if you are turning right off the roundabout. You do not indicate at all before entering the roundabout if you are going straight ahead. You are supposed to indicate "Left" as soon asoon as you pass the exit imediately prior to one you wish to take.

So in fact if you are heading straight ahead, then by law "you MUST be dumb enough to wait until your on it before you indicate ". How else can you do it?

And if the dimwits on the other side of roundabout cant see where you are going they should not be driving. So the LTNZ are making laws for drivers who should not be driving and do not know where they are going. Sounds about right.

Skyryder

[Milky]

You raise an interesting point that applies to the odd intersection here and there. You fail to mention if there is a roundabout or not so I shall presume..... not. If you are exiting from a main road and that exit entails a ..... no change of direction, (as one of the roads you described)....... then you are deemed to be making a left hand turn and the right hand rule applies

If you are entering the main road from the straight ahead road, you give way to me. I am not required to indicate even though I am changing direction. I will admit that, not knowing the intersection you describe it may vey well be prudent for me to do so, in the said circumstances. However having said that I am still of the opinion that to indicate a turn when not turning is dangerous and I for one will not be risking my life for some dickhead law.

Skyryder


I attached a picture of the intersection in question. I would contend that you indicate left for both the 90 degree left and the straight ahead left turns, as it seems the safest option (coming from the bottom up the main road). The thing that makes this intersection a little strange is that not all people use the same rationale, so you cant rely on indication or your own perception of the rules.

[Ixion]

I would contend that you indicate left for both the 90 degree left and the straight ahead left turns, as it seems the safest option
I would agree. And I think the Road Code would also. The centre line is shown as bending to the right,so any deviation from that path is a turn. Obviously a left turn for the 90 degree left and either a left for the "straight ahead" turn if it is really another left off the "main" road, or a left then an immediate right, if the "straight ahead" road actually opens off the left turn road.

The example is similar to the Y fork example in the Road Code. It is the centre line that gives the clue

[Clockwork]

So what do you expect at a normal intersection. Don't tell me. The indicator on in the dirction of the turn. If it is not on then the vehicle is going straight ahead. So why should a roundabout be any different??

Skyryder

Normal intersections are normal intersections, roundabouts are roundabouts. Some drivers may feel (legitimately) that once you are on the roundabout, that staying on the roundabout equates to going straight ahead, ergo no indication. I'm simply pointing out that when I'm entering a roundabout that I prefer all confusion were eliminated. On a single laned roundabout I can see no other reason for indicating other than for the benifit of drivers entering the round about.

[Wolf]

I attached a picture of the intersection in question. I would contend that you indicate left for both the 90 degree left and the straight ahead left turns, as it seems the safest option (coming from the bottom up the main road). The thing that makes this intersection a little strange is that not all people use the same rationale, so you cant rely on indication or your own perception of the rules.
What in-bred goat-buggering, limp-wristed, son of a whore local council member came up with that one.

The law on this is: any deviation from the center-line requires indication hence both of those roads are a left turn, requiring indication, as pointed out by others on this forum. This would mean that poor saps coming down either road and seeing a car approaching and sigalling to turn left, would have no idea which of the two roads he's going to take. That's an accident waiting to happen.

Vehicle coming up from bottom of map, indicating left. car on lefthand road wanting to turn down road assumes approaching vehicle is turning into "his" road and that it is safe to go. Oops, gets T-boned by car that was turning left into "straight-ahead" road. Only one of a number of potentially nasty scenarios.

WTF were they thinking when they set up the centre-line as such? OK, their argument would be that the "primary route" through that (former crossroad) intersection is indicated by the centre-line and that it was done for convenience to the greater number of vehicles - but obviously they didn't stop to think of the consequences.

[Ixion]

Normal intersections are normal intersections, roundabouts are roundabouts. Some drivers may feel (legitimately) that once you are on the roundabout, that staying on the roundabout equates to going straight ahead, ergo no indication. I'm simply pointing out that when I'm entering a roundabout that I prefer all confusion were eliminated. On a single laned roundabout I can see no other reason for indicating other than for the benifit of drivers entering the round about.

Pedestrians ?

I always regard a roundabout as a curved bit of road with all exits as side roads.

[Waylander]

What in-bred goat-buggering, limp-wristed, son of a whore local council member came up with that one.

The law on this is: any deviation from the center-line requires indication hence both of those roads are a left turn, requiring indication, as pointed out by others on this forum. This would mean that poor saps coming down either road and seeing a car approaching and sigalling to turn left, would have no idea which of the two roads he's going to take. That's an accident waiting to happen.

Vehicle coming up from bottom of map, indicating left. car on lefthand road wanting to turn down road assumes approaching vehicle is turning into "his" road and that it is safe to go. Oops, gets T-boned by car that was turning left into "straight-ahead" road. Only one of a number of potentially nasty scenarios.

WTF were they thinking when they set up the centre-line as such? OK, their argument would be that the "primary route" through that (former crossroad) intersection is indicated by the centre-line and that it was done for convenience to the greater number of vehicles - but obviously they didn't stop to think of the consequences.
You don't water the liquer aye wolf lol. LTNZ answere to that intersection is either throw in a round about or a stop sign or two. Niether of wich will work.

[Clockwork]

Pedestrians ?

I always regard a roundabout as a curved bit of road with all exits as side roads.

Pedestrians? Fair enough too, but like I said earlier they shouldn't need to know where you enetered a roundabout, just whether your paths are goin to cross. I agree with you about the curved road, which is why I said some may consider that no indication means "I am staying on the roundabout". I just feel that indicating left or right should remove all (most) doubt.

[Ixion]

Pedestrians? Fair enough too, but like I said earlier they shouldn't need to know where you enetered a roundabout, just whether your paths are goin to cross. I agree with you about the curved road, which is why I said some may consider that no indication means "I am staying on the roundabout". I just feel that indicating left or right should remove all (most) doubt.
Agreed. I'm not convinced of the indicate right as you enter bit. To my mind it's obvious if you want to enter the roundabout (nowhere else to go). Once on it, no indication means "I'm staying on for a bit, not exiting yet" , indicate left at your exit.

Oh well, I guess it's easy enough to comply, silly though it may be

[Wolf]

You don't water the liquer aye wolf lol. LTNZ answere to that intersection is either throw in a round about or a stop sign or two. Niether of wich will work.
Kinda reinforces my policy of not moving until the other driver has committed to the turn - which ever one that might be.

Then again, I look both ways crossing the one-way section of Ward St each day (seen too many cagers ignore/not see the one-way sign) - very cautious am I, old as Yoda some day will I be.

[vifferman]

Kinda reinforces my policy of not moving until the other driver has committed to the turn - which ever one that might be.
... and brings it back to being your responsibility to ensure that you know for sure what another driver is going to do, before you move. There are always odd cases where other drivers indicate incorrectly, leave the indicator on, fail to indicate, or give an ambiguous indication of what they're up to.
Furthermore, there are odd places (like milky's one) where it's a little difficult to communicate your intentions. I've resorted at times to pointing where I want to go, where putting my indicator on wouldn't be clear. Of course, that doesn't work if it's dark (unless you own TheGlowingFingerOfDoom), or your hand isn't visible.

[Waylander]

Kinda reinforces my policy of not moving (http://http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=MOVING) until the other driver has committed to the turn - which ever one that might be.

Then again, I look both ways crossing the one-way section of Ward St each day (seen too many cagers ignore/not see the one-way sign) - very cautious am I, old as Yoda some day will I be.
Hehe, I avoid that street alltogether. Infact I don't think I have ever been on the bike in town except when I am just going through it. If I ever actually have to go to town I'll take the bus. Risk my bike with puplic parking? I don't think so.

[flyin]

I've figured out how to solve this -straight through at a roundabout indication issue, :shifty:

Add a THIRD indicator, above the headlight, and one below the brake light, that shows intention of proceeding straight through an intersection...... :niceone:

opedrated by a simple switch on the hadlebars this could be a reality in our fine country if we keep making new legislations for the completely incompetent (average) driver :confused:

[Lou Girardin]

Some of these posts don't bode well when and if peroidic retesting is introduced.

[TwoSeven]

You don't water the liquer aye wolf lol. LTNZ answere to that intersection is either throw in a round about or a stop sign or two. Niether of wich will work.

I thought it was to put a pothole in the center of the lane where people couldnt see it.

[Lou Girardin]

While on the subject, who's the cretins that thought of planting the centre of roundabouts and blocking your sightlines?

[Gremlin]

While on the subject, who's the cretins that thought of planting the centre of roundabouts and blocking your sightlines?
:angry2: That is such a good point. After you have had a couple of close calls (because you couldn't see indicators) you realise how effective high indicators are. Most bikes have reasonably high ones and mercs and hondas also have indicators in their wing mirrors.

[Wolf]

While on the subject, who's the cretins that thought of planting the centre of roundabouts and blocking your sightlines?
Like the one on Te Aroha Street that used to have a tree in it - and the road slopes up to the roundabout on one side so you have vehicles hidden by the sudden drop in terrain and a whacking great tree. Tree's gone now. I love trees - all for 'em - but not in the middle of a bloody intersection fer chrissakes. Even with the tree gone it's still a bitch if you're riding/driving West or East on Te Aroha Street, approaching that roundabout - you have to really look to see traffic, let alone indicators.

My big beef with roundabouts - above and beyond any indication issues - it the fuck-head cagers who look at you coming around the roundabout indicating to turn right and make eye contact and then pull out in front of you anyway - as if braking whilst leanng your bike around a corner is a trivial matter.

Then they get all surprised when you lean on the horn.

Never a cop watching, either.

Where in the road code is "Give way to all vehicles approaching from your right on roundabouts unless it is a motorcycle who must give way to you." ??

[Gremlin]

Near my house is a roundabout with a stone wall about 1.5 - 1.8m (for about half, then it slopes to about 0.5m) high around it. Luckily its not very busy...

or another roundabout I almost have to always go through full of bushes that are just high enough to high the usual indicators. Close call with a merc once... :angry2:

S'pose you could do something about bushes, but a massive stone wall???

[insert favouritist roundabout here]

[ManDownUnder]

I would agree. And I think the Road Code would also. The centre line is shown as bending to the right,so any deviation from that path is a turn. Obviously a left turn for the 90 degree left and either a left for the "straight ahead" turn if it is really another left off the "main" road, or a left then an immediate right, if the "straight ahead" road actually opens off the left turn road.

The example is similar to the Y fork example in the Road Code. It is the centre line that gives the clue

Yup - it is a straight ahead left hand turn...

God bless those in charge of such clarity

(actually to my mind it's pretty obvious but saying it out loud sounds kinda funcky.
MDU

[Lou Girardin]

Where in the road code is "Give way to all vehicles approaching from your right on roundabouts unless it is a motorcycle who must give way to you." ??

Believe or not, an old duck who pulled out on me while I was on a bloody patrol bike of all things, said that she didn't have to give way to bikes.

Her education was completed quite quickly and at a cost.

[ManDownUnder]

On a related note - can you get air horns for bikes - you know the REALLY LOUD ONES

Like the fire engines have..

"Oh I'm sorry for bursting your ear drums but I thought you might want a set of broken ears to go with your broken eyes!"

Yup - hate that.
MDU

[Ixion]

On a related note - can you get air horns for bikes - you know the

Air horns can be fitted to bikes so long as they have enough electric power to run the compressor (which rules out a lot of bikes ). I have them on the Beammer, but I am disappointed with the volume though. They're loud, but so far I haven't caused a single avalanche. Finding places to mount everything can be a pain on bikes. And you *must* run them through a separate relay or you'll almost certainly burn out your handle bar button

[TwoSeven]

While on the subject, who's the cretins that thought of planting the centre of roundabouts and blocking your sightlines?

I dont know - I kinda like that one. It fun checking them out each morning to see if there is a new set of tire tracks. Sometimes you even get to see the odd car glued to the tree still.

For some people, turning or stopping is too hard.

[scumdog]

Agreed. I'm not convinced of the indicate right as you enter bit. To my mind it's obvious if you want to enter the roundabout (nowhere else to go). Once on it, no indication means "I'm staying on for a bit, not exiting yet" , indicate left at your exit.

Oh well, I guess it's easy enough to comply, silly though it may be

Just put your hazard lights on as you get to the roundamabout (Homer Simpson speak) and ta-da! you're covered for any eventuality!! :killingme

[Lou Girardin]

Just put your hazard lights on as you get to the roundamabout (Homer Simpson speak) and ta-da! you're covered for any eventuality!! :killingme

You probably think that doesn't happen. Come and check out our world.

[scumdog]

You probably think that doesn't happen. Come and check out our world.

I might have to seeing as we don't have a roundabout down here - or traffic lights :niceone:

[Wolf]

Believe or not, an old duck who pulled out on me while I was on a bloody patrol bike of all things, said that she didn't have to give way to bikes.

Her education was completed quite quickly and at a cost.
If it'd been me on the bike, part of her cost would've been a sojourn in hospital getting her ear drums repaired - and a new car.

[Lou Girardin]

I might have to seeing as we don't have a roundabout down here - or traffic lights :niceone:

I thought a cow pat was a roundabout for you lot.

[James Deuce]

I thought a cow pat was a roundabout for you lot.
Only if it's hard