Mineral, semi-synthetic and synthetic oil?

[p.dath]

Nearly fell over today when I saw the price of synthetic oil (I'd say about three times more expensive than traditional mineral).

In the world of cars there used to be quite a bit of debate if synthetic oils were actually any better. But that was some time ago.

So are the current breed of synthetic oils on the market worth the 3 x price they command?

[rosie631]

I only use synthetic oil. Don't really know the answer to your question tho.

[98tls]

For my money no,Good quality mineral is as good as anything for a bike used for road riding.Imho.Years ago i was talking to some head mechanic bloke in Wanganui about a problem i had with the TL chucking oil into the airbox,whilst yapping he mentioned that synthetic had been known to produce clutch slippage in them,dunno,theres plenty on the TL forum use it with no problem fwiw.I wonder if people using Synthetic still change there oil as much as they used to with mineral?

[FJRider]

As I understand ... its the fact that they're not reliant so heavily on fossil fuel reserves to produce. The cost to produce, is the reason for the price ... more than their quality.

More expensive stuff is always better ... eh!!!

[rosie631]

I wonder if people using Synthetic till change there oil as much as they used to with mineral?

Yep

10 char

[98tls]

Yep

10 char Whats your reasons for using it rosie?not having a crack in anyway just interested.

[rosie631]

Nothing scientific. Was recommended by a friend whose opinion I respect. And the bike seems to like it.

[slofox]

I wonder how much the higher price is based on the "it's not depleting fossil fuel reserves" type of thinking. In the same way that organic food is dearer...but then I am a cynical old bugger anyway...

Years ago I used Castrol R in a race bike. Until I realised how much of the stuff the bloody bike gobbled up every meet. Soon went back to GTX...

[p.dath]

For my money no,Good quality mineral is as good as anything for a bike used for road riding.Imho.Years ago i was talking to some head mechanic bloke in Wanganui about a problem i had with the TL chucking oil into the airbox,whilst yapping he mentioned that synthetic had been known to produce clutch slippage in them,dunno,theres plenty on the TL forum use it with no problem fwiw.I wonder if people using Synthetic still change there oil as much as they used to with mineral?

As best as I can determine, synthetic oil lasts no longer. It's main benefit seems to be its temperature operating range, and friction reduction.

Mineral oil operates within the temperature range of my bikes engine already. So the only advantage seems to be a very minor reduction in friction which causes wear.

[CookMySock]

As best as I can determine, synthetic oil lasts no longer. It's main benefit seems to be its temperature operating range, and friction reduction.

[...]the only advantage seems to be a very minor reduction in friction which causes wear.No, and no. Synthetic oil (the good ones anyway) don't lose their viscosity as quickly, don't oxidise with high temperatures, don't become as acidic, and a whole bunch or other stuff. There is plenty of reduction in friction - often the factory machining marks are still present on a race engine internals after an entire season.

Steve

[OLD MAN BJ]

I'm coming up to needing some new oil for the 1250 Bandit, and I usually buy in quantity to save$$.
Maybe a bit off topic, but I find it strange that the big players who make bike specific oil will always recommend it (+ $$ ) for the usual blah blah reasons. So I've been getting some info about which oil to get. Funny isnt it that the companies that dont market a bike specific oil here in NZ, are quite happy to recommend another car oil from their range. What I've been recommended!!!
1/ Penrite, HPR Gas 10, or Diesel 5
2/ Valvoline, Synguard or Durablend
3/ Mobil, Super 2000, because I told them I wanted a semi syn, and they dont have one here.
Do you ever get sick of having big companies taking the piss out of you?

[p.dath]

I'm coming up to needing some new oil for the 1250 Bandit, and I usually buy in quantity to save$$.
Maybe a bit off topic, but I find it strange that the big players who make bike specific oil will always recommend it (+ $$ ) for the usual blah blah reasons. So I've been getting some info about which oil to get. Funny isnt it that the companies that dont market a bike specific oil here in NZ, are quite happy to recommend another car oil from their range. What I've been recommended!!!
1/ Penrite, HPR Gas 10, or Diesel 5
2/ Valvoline, Synguard or Durablend
3/ Mobil, Super 2000, because I told them I wanted a semi syn, and they dont have one here.
Do you ever get sick of having big companies taking the piss out of you?

What does your bike manufacturer recommend?

[OLD MAN BJ]

What does your bike manufacturer recommend?

Pretty vague like them all. SF/SG or up to SJ with Jaso. What a load of crap! You are expected to pay extra for a rating that is obsolete. The day my bike is out of warranty, it'l be getting an HDEO 15w-40 mineral oil changed regularly and as a bonus they are all 5 ltr packs.

[peasea]

Nearly fell over today when I saw the price of synthetic oil (I'd say about three times more expensive than traditional mineral).

In the world of cars there used to be quite a bit of debate if synthetic oils were actually any better. But that was some time ago.

So are the current breed of synthetic oils on the market worth the 3 x price they command?

Read this.

http://www.vfrworld.com/tex_vfr/tech/oil.htm

[pete376403]

I wonder how much the higher price is based on the "it's not depleting fossil fuel reserves" type of thinking. In the same way that organic food is dearer...but then I am a cynical old bugger anyway...

Years ago I used Castrol R in a race bike. Until I realised how much of the stuff the bloody bike gobbled up every meet. Soon went back to GTX...

If it's "not depleting fossil reserves", exactly where are the materials that become synthetic coming from? Not too many chemicals that aren't based on hydrocarbons in some form or other.
Unlike Castrol R, which is made from the first pressings of castor beans. Extra virgin if you like. And it smells beeeyoootiful. And Castrol R is one of the highest performing lubricants, if you can put up with the cost. And the gumming up the works if you leave it in motor for any length of time.

Hmmmm. Nothing quite like an oil thread.

[CookMySock]

If you want the Castrol R pong without the hassle, just drip a tiny bit of it in your exhaust. Yum.

Steve

[bsasuper]

motul 5100, my local bike dealer sells by the litre from a big drum, heaps cheaper than buying a pack.I do a change every 2000km.

[Quasievil]

If it's "not depleting fossil reserves", exactly where are the materials that become synthetic coming from? Not too many chemicals that aren't based on hydrocarbons in some form or other.
Unlike Castrol R, which is made from the first pressings of castor beans. Extra virgin if you like. And it smells beeeyoootiful. And Castrol R is one of the highest performing lubricants, if you can put up with the cost. And the gumming up the works if you leave it in motor for any length of time.

Hmmmm. Nothing quite like an oil thread.



Differences are Synthetic Lubes have been chemically made, Synthetics (unlike Mineral oils) are not found in nature, advantages are Higher Viscosity range, Higher VI Lower traction coeffiecent, Better Oxidation stability lower volatility.
Synthetic oils use API group III (hydro processed stocks), API group Iv Polyalphaolefins (POA) and API Group V (esters Polyglycols and Silicones)

main differences between Mineral and Synthetics, Minerals have complex mixtures and there is alot of comprimise between the proterties (ie molecule size. Synthetics better purity no wax no impurities and the properties are tailored

Essentially Synthetics are better in every way over Minerals.

Im trying to find a picture of a distialltion typew tower, the POA essentially come from the top, like a gas, from that they are refined into synthetics, minerals arent as refined however some companies (castrol) choose to use Mineral and advance them with high levels of additives and call them Synthetics even tho they are not................misleading fucken damn right!

I got loads of info on this stuff, and can try to answer questions, Im not a guru but got the info via work.

[Robbo]

If you want the Castrol R pong without the hassle, just drip a tiny bit of it in your exhaust. Yum.

Steve

Also about 25mls of castor oil in the petrol tank will give the same effect.

[OLD MAN BJ]

I agree with you Quasi regarding the benefits of Synthetic oils. But as I understand it, they all start off from the same crude stock, with the synthetics being chemically altered later in the process. Maybe wrong, but if I am correct we are not saving the planet. However, a good Synthetic oil is a good synthetic oil , doesn't matter if its for bike or car.

[Quasievil]

I agree with you Quasi regarding the benefits of Synthetic oils. But as I understand it, they all start off from the same crude stock, with the synthetics being chemically altered later in the process. Maybe wrong, but if I am correct we are not saving the planet. However, a good Synthetic oil is a good synthetic oil , doesn't matter if its for bike or car.

essentially as I understand it, Polyalphaolefin is the base stock for most vehicle synthetic oils, and it does all derive from what is essentially gas taken from the top of the distillation tower when they process the oil.
Below that they take of lower refined grades for other uses..........heating oils diesel etc etc.
Synthetic oils dont offer any saviour to the planet other than as they are better they do not need changing as often so I guess you could argue they are more enviromentaly friendly than say a mineral based one

[Quasievil]

Here you will see what I mean, the picture shows a basic distillation refining tower, you will see at the top where the PAO come from.....gas, thats the material used or base stocks for Synthetics come from (excepting Castrol of course)

[OLD MAN BJ]

Thanks for that info Quasi. BTW, the feeling over at BITOG is that Mobil have started blending PAO with Group 3 in M1, and its not quite as good as it has been in the past. Its still a great oil though. And apparently in europe they are still not allowed to call a group 3 oil a full syn, so the Castrol oils over there are infact real syn oils.

[Quasievil]

Thanks for that info Quasi. BTW, the feeling over at BITOG is that Mobil have started blending PAO with Group 3 in M1, and its not quite as good as it has been in the past. Its still a great oil though. And apparently in europe they are still not allowed to call a group 3 oil a full syn, so the Castrol oils over there are infact real syn oils.

Ive heard that also but I havent had that confirmed from up above, I do know that some additives are carried by gIII better so this could be a reason for some of this Base stock being used.
I doubt it has been developed worse.
whats BITOG ??

[Motu]

Bob Is The Oil Guy.

[OLD MAN BJ]

Bret,
BITOG stands for "Bob Is The Oil Guy". Its probably the most informative site there is on oil, and has some very clever cookies as members. Its completely dedicated to Oil and its performance. Do a search using BITOG if you are interested,and as a racer you should be.

[AllanB]

Peanut oil anyone?

Massage oil - you can get all types of different aromas to put you in various moods.

I'm a couple thousand kms off my next service and recently asked by local dealer about fully synthetic against the semi-synthetic the bike is running. I was told to save the bucks on the Hornet 900 as it's not high revving enough to warrant the full. Redline is 9500. He stated if it was a CBRRRRRRR thingy yes, once run-in use the full due to the higher revs.

Plenty use full in their Hornets on the WristTwisters site (or 919's as they call them in the USA) and think it's the spiff. Then again there are plenty on there using the cheapest stuff they can find from Wallmart and think it's the spiff.

Fucking oil threads eh! What the hells a guy to do?

Surely the best oil is the best oil?

The best thing is to change it regularly at the makers intervals, whatever you use.

[Quasievil]

Bret,
BITOG stands for "Bob Is The Oil Guy". Its probably the most informative site there is on oil, and has some very clever cookies as members. Its completely dedicated to Oil and its performance. Do a search using BITOG if you are interested,and as a racer you should be.


Nice site, I bring the page up to see MOBIL 1 , sites gotta be good (yeah I know its a ad)

[p.dath]

Is there much difference between car and motorcycle engine oil?

[Motu]

Nice site, I bring the page up to see MOBIL 1 , sites gotta be good (yeah I know its a ad)

I'll sure they'll convert you to Amsoil very soon - then you can come here and tell us how good it is.:no:

[vifferman]

Is there much difference between car and motorcycle engine oil?
Basically, no. But there are differences in the additive packs, since cars don't have wet clutches like most bikes, and some of the additive packs added to car oil contain things that could cause wet clutches to slip. Also, your average bike engine revs higher than a car, and may have less oil in the sump (although mine doesn't) so allowances are made for that.

Many bike riders swear by decent diesel oils, as they're generally cheaper and made to some quite exacting standards.

I've tried all sorts of oils, and the only thing I've noticed is that some oils make the gear changes a little notchier. Mobil 1 (or 4T, or whatever it's called) is one of those. I've used it only once, and that was when it was on sale at AMPS for not much more than Motul 5100.

[Vgygrwr]

I admit it was a long time ago now but when I kept detailed track of fuel consumption I always got at least 5% better using Mobil 1. Even changing the oil just as frequently made it much cheaper to use than mineral oils. I have used it ever since other than for the first change on a new bike.

[Quasievil]

Mobil 1 (or 4T, or whatever it's called)

Mobil 1 racing 4 T
is the name of it

[Flip]

They really are that good. They are better, cleaner and stronger than mineral oils. Yep they are worth 3 times the price to me.
I have worked in the Beaumont lube oil blend plant in Texas where the Mobil 1 was made (and I actually hate Mobil) but the oil is brillant stuff.
I use it in my race car and use the HD Syn3 in the Harley. I dont use them in my vintage vehicles cause they don't justify or need the uber oils.

[Flip]

Is there much difference between car and motorcycle engine oil?

None at all. All the industry API testing is done in standard car (S) and truck(C) motors, not bike motors.

[Molly]

Go to the on-site shop of your local Mobil distribution centre and buy fully synthetic oil at a more realistic price (though I notice it has gone up a lot in the past year).

I've read every bloody white paper / test and opinion on syn vs dino oil I can and think it really comes down to the conditions expected for use. For my Harley in the NZ climate it's hard to justify the cost simply for the cooler running afforded by Mobil 1 V-Twin Fully Syn. It's not Arizona after all and I'm not racing either. That said, it <i>is</i> better for your motor so once run in I'll probably stick with it. By the way, lots of crap is talked about roller bearings 'skating' on fully syn. It's bollocks.

Oh, and I gather HD's SYN3 is only a blend, not fully syn. An independent white paper I read (admittedly funded by AMSOil) didn't think much of SYN3 at all.

I need to get out more.

[Molly]

None at all. All the industry API testing is done in standard car (S) and truck(C) motors, not bike motors.

Hmmmmm. Depends really. I've testing literature for bike-dedicated oils. PM me and I'll bounce some of it to you via email (for those long, cold winter nights).

[p.dath]

I think I might stick with the semi-synthetic oil for my bike. But perhaps when I buy a new bike (not for some time!) I might change over to using the nice fully synthetic oil.

[Flip]

By the way, lots of crap is talked about roller bearings 'skating' on fully syn. It's bollocks.

No its not. I have first hand experience of Evo big end failures using Mobil 1.

I don,t really care what Ampro say about Syn1. Harley Davidson say its the oil to put in their motors, Harley are the experts on Harley motors. The SAE serviceability classifications on motor oils are not done on Harley motors but on std car motors.

[Naki Rat]

......
Many bike riders swear by decent diesel oils, as they're generally cheaper and made to some quite exacting standards......

I was long ago warned off of using diesel oils in engines not designed for them (i.e. petrol engines) due to it containing detergents that played havoc with seals and the like. Oil and engine technology may have changed so maybe this is no longer relevant :scratch:

[Quasievil]

No its not. I have first hand experience of Evo big end failures using Mobil 1.



Of course it was the oil, nothing to do with anything else.
Must have been an oversight when designing the best oil in the world to consider your particular big end

lol


sorry that shit cracks me up big time !

[AllanB]

Did someone say I should rub Mobil 1 on my big end?

Personally I don't think Mobil 1 would be the choice for this - not enough friction ........:gob::gob::gob::gob:

[bsasuper]

None at all. All the industry API testing is done in standard car (S) and truck(C) motors, not bike motors.

You put gtx in your bike and ill put motul 5100 in mine and see whos bike F%#Ks out first

[Quasievil]

Did someone say I should rub Mobil 1 on my big end?

Personally I don't think Mobil 1 would be the choice for this - not enough friction ........:gob::gob::gob::gob:

I can sell ya a 208 lt of massage parlour oil for the big end

[Owl]

I can sell ya a 208 lt of massage parlour oil for the big end

What a knob!









Well it must be to need 208 litres!

[p.dath]

I can sell ya a 208 lt of massage parlour oil for the big end

Prey tell, what are you doing in possession of 208 lt of massage parlour oil?

[Quasievil]

Prey tell, what are you doing in possession of 208 lt of massage parlour oil?I work for MOBIL and its in the range mate

[2_SL0]

OOOOOOOOOooooooooooooo one of my fav topics. But Im not weighing into it this time. Looks like Quasi might be getting closer to the truth at last. :whistle:

Keep your hair on Quasi (giggle) Mobil 1 is a good oil.

[Flip]

You put gtx in your bike and ill put motul 5100 in mine and see whos bike F%#Ks out first

Interesting Motul 5100 is only a SG oil while GTX is a SL oil. A SL oil is a better oil, causes less wear, is cleaner, works better at both high and low temperatures and motors lasts longer under high load conditions than a SG oil.

[LBD]

The 3 main tasks the oil needs to under take are...

1)To maintain a low friction film...
2)To transfer heat away from ..hot areas ie under pistons
3)Manage contaminants in the oil.

It is this third point that determines oil change intervals more than any thing else. The contaminants cause wear between moving parts, gears, pistons in bores, followers on cams etc.

Particulate contaminants come from 3 main sources....
1) Internally generated from metal to metal contact or from clutch plate friction....

2) Products of combustion, mainly soot particles (one of the tasks of engine oil is to prevent small soot particles in the oil from combining froming larger abrasive particles

3) Externally introduced, through the air filter into cylinder and past rings into the oil, or With the new oil itself...

New oil is not clean, and lube companies will not state a cleanliness standard for their oil or agree to comply with any standard. If you want to be super fussy as I am with work oil....It is filtered through a 3 micron filter into the storage tank then circulated through the 3 micron filter before use. I have had examples of oil with 50 hrs use being cleaner than the new oil because the equipment filters has remove particles that were in the new oil.

When you have selected an oil....for me always a 5W40 synthetic, change the oil and the filter at or before the recomended interval...I always look at about 80% of the recomended interval, my riding is mostly highway/country.

Unless racing or particularly heavy duty, 2000 km is a bit of an overkill.

[bsasuper]

Interesting Motul 5100 is only a SG oil while GTX is a SL oil. A SL oil is a better oil, causes less wear, is cleaner, works better at both high and low temperatures and motors lasts longer under high load conditions than a SG oil.

Correct but gtx will loose its shear strength faster in a motorcycle engine/gearbox.

[Owl]

I'm a fairly recent convert to Motul.

With the threat of global warming and current state of the environment, the world needs all the help it can get.

Motul 300V is definitely the greenest oil on the market!:msn-wink:

[AllanB]

With the threat of global warming and current state of the environment, the world needs all the help it can get.

Motul 300V is definitely the greenest oil on the market!:msn-wink:

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


Sorry I don't mean to insult, but after reading that I have this vision of Sue Bradford pulling a wheelie on a Speed Triple!!!!!!!

[Owl]

Sorry I don't mean to insult, but after reading that I have this vision of Sue Bradford pulling a wheelie on a Speed Triple!!!!!!!

:shit::no::spanking:

I can't believe you put her and Speedy in the same sentence???

Sue-Harley is another matter, as they're both overweight, slow, loud and don't ever stop!

[Quasievil]

Motul 300V is definitely the greenest oil on the market!:msn-wink:

Why ? and how so?

[Owl]

Why ? and how so?

Cos it is bright green!:laugh:

[2_SL0]

Cos it is bright green!:laugh:

Christ mate, that looks like antifreeze. :shutup:

[Owl]

Christ mate, that looks like antifreeze. :shutup:

That is exactly what it looks like, only a tad thicker!