Flags, colours, and their use

[MSTRS]

It is often apparent that *some* riders, due to inexperience or ... (bloodimindedness?), do not respond as requested by the flag marshalls, who make a judgement call or are acting under radioed instructions from the tower.
There was a situation at Manfield 25/7/9 where a racer was spewing fluids and was individually redded to got off NOW, but who in fact continued round the track to the pits, but first moved from the inside of the track to the outside right at the entry to the fastest corner (Dunlop sweeper into the main straight).
The whole event was held up for some 40 minutes while the cleanup was undertaken.
Now, I know that all racers are told in briefing of the flags and their meanings (plus I believe they have the same info in their rulebooks), but not everyone hears/remembers what's said at briefing.
so....In an effort to help with flag recognition especially for noobs, especially in an easily read format without pressure affecting ability to take it all in, the following post has the full breakdown.

Note - if anything I put in the flag post is wrong or misleading, let me know and I'll change if necessary
:sunny:

This is the controversy that sparked this thread...use of a flag that is not in the rule book, and was not correct - (In rare cases, an individual rider may be signalled with a red flag at a marshall point. That rider is to leave the track now. That means get off the track, onto the grass/whatever and out of the way as indicated by that marshall.)
The use was meaningless, and this thread is an attempt to explore and find a solution

[MSTRS]

6-19 The following flags will be recognised as the standard colours to be used as signals to riders during a race:

Green: Start

Red: All riders stop racing.

Yellow: Held Stationary – SLOW DOWN – Proceed with caution. No overtaking until danger area is passed. Sidecar riders-this could also mean your passenger is in difficulties.

Yellow: Waved – SLOW DOWN NOW – Proceed with extreme caution. No overtaking until the danger area is passed, be prepared to stop.
For MX & SX: Whether the yellow flag be stationary or waved: this means no jumping at all.

White: Last lap.

Black: Individual rider to stop and retire from course. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the black flag is displayed.

Black and White Check: Finish for all riders.

Red and Yellow Stripes: Oil on course. Or other slippery substances (such as lime laid on oil spills). May also be used for debris that is unable to be removed at that point.

Red and White Cross: Ambulance on course, proceed with caution.

Black with Orange Centre: Road Race Only: Machine to be removed from the circuit immediately. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the flag is displayed.

Black and White Stripe: Oval Track Only, Competitor under protest. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the flag is displayed.

Blue Waved: SX Only. Warning you are about to be lapped.
Blue Waved Road Racing: Overtaking signal warning rider is about to be overtaken.

Blue Held Stationary Road Racing: Indicates that competitor is soon to be overtaken.

Purple: MX Protest Flag.

Flags must be a minimum size of 24” x 24” (600mm x 600mm).

Generally speaking, for club racing the only flags used will be ...

At the Start/Finish line
Green - for starts
White - for last lap
Black/White checkered - race over. Continue around and leave track via pit entrance (or as indicated by a posted marshall, as at slip lanes).
Black - with displayed rider number - rider is being ordered off the track.
Red - as below

At the individual Marshall Points
Red waved - race is temporarily stopped, all riders drop off speed and with caution circulate to pit entrance (or sliplane as indicated by a marshall), leave the track and form up on the dummy grid in pitlane, until released by track officials.
Yellow held - bike/rider down, generally are off the track. Proceed with caution until past the next marshal point NOT displaying a yellow, NO overtaking
Yellow waved - as above but also - Drop speed immediately, expect debris on the track
Red/Yellow Striped held or waved - oil or other slippery substance/s on the track
Blue held or waved - a faster bike/s is about to overtake you, hold your speed and line

In rare cases, an individual rider may be signalled with a red flag at a marshall point. That rider is to leave the track now. That means get off the track, onto the grass/whatever and out of the way as indicated by that marshall.

[Tony.OK]

Not to be picky but why the red flag?
Wouldn't the black be better and less confusing? Thats what its for.


Oh never mind..........just saw that the marshallpoints don't have em. Might be worth looking into to save confusion perhaps?

[MSTRS]

Not to be picky but why the red flag?
Wouldn't the black be better and less confusing? Thats what its for.


Oh never mind..........just saw that the marshallpoints don't have em. Might be worth looking into to save confusion perhaps?

Perhaps. Remember, it is a rare case, and use of black flag requires rider number too. And we marshalls are an illiterate lot, without marker pens etc.

[Duke girl]

Originally Posted by MSTRS
It is often apparent that *some* riders, due to inexperience or ... (bloodimindedness?), do not respond as requested by the flag marshalls, who make a judgement call or are acting under radioed instructions from the tower.
There was a situation at Manfield 25/7/9 where a racer was spewing fluids and was individually redded to got off NOW, but who in fact continued round the track to the pits, but first moved from the inside of the track to the outside right at the entry to the fastest corner (Dunlop sweeper into the main straight).
The whole event was held up for some 40 minutes while the cleanup was undertaken.
Now, I know that all racers are told in briefing of the flags and their meanings (plus I believe they have the same info in their rulebooks), but not everyone hears/remembers what's said at briefing.
so....In an effort to help with flag recognition especially for noobs, the following post has the full breakdown.

Also in the Race Program under the heading Riders Briefing (Flags) page 5, gives you a list of the Flags, their colours and what they mean. It is put into the Race Program for all Riders to read and also to understand so that if they are used out on the track during a Race all Riders should know and understand what that flag means and what they are expected to do. Racing is not just about hopping on a bike and going hell for leather its all about knowing the Rules, Regulations and especially knowing the Flags.

[crazzed]

this doesn't allow for monkeys(spectators) waving shirts etc of varying colurs(black) over the wall at the start finish line marshall point. as at round 2. what happens then. :spanking:

[MSTRS]

this doesn't allow for monkeys(spectators) waving shirts etc of varying colurs(black) over the wall at the start finish line marshall point. as at round 2. what happens then. :spanking:

Skeepy gets hold of them....

[crazzed]

Skeepy gets hold of them....

still waiting to hear what's happening over this. still pissed about it.

[MSTRS]

Sorry, I have no idea, and hadn't heard of it. I simply marshal out on the track. And so only need to concern myself with what riders do as a result of (my) flag calls.

[crazzed]

Sorry, I have no idea, and hadn't heard of it. I simply marshal out on the track. And so only need to concern myself with what riders do as a result of (my) flag calls.

happended last round as i checked up accross the line and got swamped by following riders from the lead then crashed at higgins remembering i was only in clubmans. now bike totaled and cant ride for few months due to injuries.

[ajturbo]

hey MSTRS...

i was on the end of a mic (ear peice ).. and i heard the MNZ Steward asking point after point to get a flag out to stop that rider...... NOT one seamed to know what
"get that flag out to stop that rider" meant

now as you know, i was only in the pits and i was only watching it all unfold, the said rider was told in no uncertain words, (from the mnz rep and our track boss)that what he did was wrong and what he should have done... that rider will NEVER make that same mistake... and i do hope that other racers will learn from it...

we were lucky out there yesterday, all it cost was some time.....

learning the flags from a racer's point of view...

ANY person want to race in NZ needs to join a club and buy a MNZ race licence.. then race....

what WE need to do is change that... follow the aussies ( yeah i know it's that bad..lol)

NO-ONE can race untill the pass a test... you cannot progress up the ranks untill you have shown you have the ablity/knowledge to do so..

but is the MNZ doing anything about this?????

..

thats right... nothing.....

NOTE: these are MY views ONLY not of ANY CLUB

[Nasty]

this doesn't allow for monkeys(spectators) waving shirts etc of varying colurs(black) over the wall at the start finish line marshall point. as at round 2. what happens then. :spanking:

The answer to your question is two fold:

First lap of qualifying all points are required to show the yellow flag held stationary to indicate to riders where they are - so they will be aware of where they should look.

Second spectators (or monkeys as you call them - which is just really nice) should never wave anything - they should be shot. But that point needs to be raised formally with the Club - direct an email to race@vicclub.co.nz so that it can be addressed at their monthly meeting - and ask for a response.

[crazzed]

The answer to your question is two fold:

First lap of qualifying all points are required to show the yellow flag held stationary to indicate to riders where they are - so they will be aware of where the should look.

Second spectators (or monkeys as you call them - which is just really nice) should never wave anything - they should be shot. But that point needs to be raised formally with the Club - direct an email to race@vicclub.co.nz so that it can be addressed at their monthly meeting - and ask for a response.

i have spoken to skip, clive and dee after the incident still waiting to hear back. still pissed as missed this round and still laid up with cast on leg. just venting.

[ajturbo]

happended last round as i checked up accross the line and got swamped by following riders from the lead then crashed at higgins remembering i was only in clubmans. now bike totaled and cant ride for few months due to injuries.
IF you had known what the flags were...

and remembered where they were (as they are always shown on the first time around for every class)

maybe you would not have been distracted???

this brings up another one of MY points.....

how many racers do you see walk/push bike around the track, making mental notes of what is where, what the track is like, where the flags should be, pot-holes, white lines... etc..

it is up to YOU to know what you are racing on.... we do a track inspection, and tell of anything we think you may need to know... but unless YOU take a look for yourself...... how will you know?????

now don't say there is no time!!!!!!!!!!!
the gates are open at 7am, rider's brief is 8:30ish........

AJ

[Nasty]

i have spoken to skip, clive and dee after the incident still waiting to hear back. still pissed as missed this round and still laid up with cast on leg. just venting.

Informal vs formal channels and forcing the answers. Speak to whoever you want - things that are documented will be dealt with - things that aren't will fall to the wayside (the meetings are extremely busy and things that are not raised formally don't always get priority.

[Sketchy_Racer]

happended last round as i checked up accross the line and got swamped by following riders from the lead then crashed at higgins remembering i was only in clubmans. now bike totaled and cant ride for few months due to injuries.

To be honest mate, the reality is that you need to be paying more attention to the flag points. If you can't see difference between a flag and a shirt etc, it's a bit of a worry, and it's not fair to associate your accident with something someone did or didn't do on the pit wall. The only person controlling what the bike is doing is the fullah on the top of it.

[MSTRS]

hey MSTRS...

i was on the end of a mic (ear peice ).. and i heard the MNZ Steward asking point after point to get a flag out to stop that rider...... NOT one seamed to know what
"get that flag out to stop that rider" meant



Can't speak for the other points...all I know is that 'our point' got the call to 'get that rider off the track'. Marshalls are not allowed to use the red flag without being told to, and are not allowed to mention it by name over the radio (just in case the other points hear the call when there isn't one). We asked control if we were to 'terminate that rider' and they said do what you need to, just get him off the track - and the rider just carried on.

[crazzed]

IF you had known what the flags were...

and remembered where they were (as they are always shown on the first time around for every class)

maybe you would not have been distracted???

this brings up another one of MY points.....

how many racers do you see walk/push bike around the track, making mental notes of what is where, what the track is like, where the flags should be, pot-holes, white lines... etc..

it is up to YOU to know what you are racing on.... we do a track inspection, and tell of anything we think you may need to know... but unless YOU take a look for yourself...... how will you know?????

now don't say there is no time!!!!!!!!!!!
the gates are open at 7am, rider's brief is 8:30ish........

AJ

i did walk around and we were there at 7. the complaint happened at the marshal point and clubmans is for learning and spectators should not be over the WALL!

[crazzed]

Informal vs formal channels and forcing the answers. Speak to whoever you want - things that are documented will be dealt with - things that aren't will fall to the wayside (the meetings are extremely busy and things that are not raised formally don't always get priority.

all done via email

[crazzed]

To be honest mate, the reality is that you need to be paying more attention to the flag points. If you can't see difference between a flag and a shirt etc, it's a bit of a worry, and it's not fair to associate your accident with something someone did or didn't do on the pit wall. The only person controlling what the bike is doing is the fullah on the top of it.

and you didn't learn you went straight out and were at the top. as stated i was racing clubmans when this happened.

[Skunk]

The area is now kept clear of specators. The flag point was over 1.5 metres above where the shirt was waved.
My views:
1/ Should all specators be banned from the track in case they do something stupid? I don't think so. Nor should they be stopped from watching. Supply the club 20 or so voluteers and I think the club might have the manpower to make sure nothing like this could happen again.
2/ If he was such a distraction why did you take two kilometres and several corners and straights to finally crash? Is that an example of your reactions? Or are you just looking for someone other than yourself to blame for out-riding yourself?

[FROSTY]

Im sorry guys to dissagree with you here. I'd say Im a reasonably experienced rider.
if I saw a red flag I would slow, Raise my left hand (curtosy to other following riders) and head back to the pits at about half race pace in a normal manner. I would at all times be prepared to stop if needed Because that is EXACTLY what a red flag tells me to do.
If I saw a BLACK flag waved at me I would get off the racing line slow down and prepare to stop knowing full well the issue is with my conduct or there is an issue with my machine.
If a red flag was the one that was waved then the fault is not with the rider its with the flag that was chosen.

[yungatart]

Im sorry guys to dissagree with you here. I'd say Im a reasonably experienced rider.
if I saw a red flag I would slow, Raise my left hand (curtosy to other following riders) and head back to the pits at about half race pace in a normal manner. I would at all times be prepared to stop if needed Because that is EXACTLY what a red flag tells me to do.
If I saw a BLACK flag waved at me I would get off the racing line slow down and prepare to stop knowing full well the issue is with my conduct or there is an issue with my machine.
If a red flag was the one that was waved then the fault is not with the rider its with the flag that was chosen.

Marshall points don't have black flags, Frosty. The red was waved at this particular rider, the marshall's other hand was quite clearly indicating that this rider needed to pull over HERE and NOW.

[Teambwr47]

where a racer was spewing fluids and was individually redded to got off NOW

How would you individually red flag a rider? It would be very hard at most tracks to guarantee another rider following behind had not seen the red flag shown or moved

I've always understood the flag rules (well certainly UK ACU wise) to be that, the black flag was the flag to be used to stop an individual rider and that flag should be accompanied by the rider number or failing that a very clear indication from a marshal to the rider concerned. It can be shown at marshal points and the start/finish line.

The red flag being shown to a rider could surely be easily mistaken by another following rider as the race is being stopped and while it may well not be at the next post an element of doubt on what's going on would be in place. If i ever see a red flag or glimpse it I reduce pace ASAP as its meant to be for the end of racing, most likely for a major incident or problems on track. Equally a red flag does not normally mean stop straight away (unless indicated at a point on track to do so) it means stop racing and substantially reduce pace proceeding as per instructions. I guess this could cover the rider in question being required to stop but i just question the use of the red flag for that reason?

[BMWST?]

using red flag to get one rider to stop is not the proper use for it...and the riders breifing and other instruction quite clearly state to go back to the pits...

[FROSTY]

if not WHY NOT?? Can I suggest that is more the issue.
Was the oil flag used?? which would have given me another clue the issue was my bike.
--Hey look Im sorry I wan't there I can only tell you what I would do being a racer of a fair few er decades.
If I saw a red flag I would slow ect I would NOT pay any heed to the hand motions of a marshal. I've got other stuff to worry about -like the next corner--- are we past half race--how longs the next session- do I need warmers back on. Have I got enough fuel load to finish if we just in and out the pits.
sorry guys but if you've racedd BOTS or whanganui. or nelson you learn to block out whats going on on the sidelines.
An example was at nelson in 2002 an amply endowed young lady in a yellow tee shirt insisted on leaning over the fence right in front of the marshal point. -if I diddn't block out her movements I'd have missed the actual flag marshal

[yungatart]

How would you individually red flag a rider? It would be very hard at most tracks to guarantee another rider following behind had not seen the red flag shown or moved



The red flag being shown to a rider could surely be easily mistaken by another following rider as the race is being stopped and while it may well not be at the next post an element of doubt on what's going on would be in place. If i ever see a red flag or glimpse it I reduce pace ASAP as its meant to be for the end of racing, most likely for a major incident or problems on track. Equally a red flag does not mean stop straight away, unless indicated at a point on track to do so?

The red was waved at ONE rider. The marshall was out of the marshall point directly on top of the tyre wall in front of the marshall box at this point. He was pointed to by the marshall, the marshall then raised his/her hand in a "Stop" sign fashion (like the police do at a roadside check point) and then pointed to the side of the track, clearly indicating to that rider to pull off the track HERE and NOW!!
There were no other riders in close proximity...it could only have been directed at that particular rider!
We are talking SS class here, not superbikes thundering through at 200+ Kph four or five riders abreast.

[Tony.OK]

Ok who knows the cost of a flag?

To support VMCC I'd be happy to donate a black with orange spot (if they're not too expensive). Would be good to have the correct "get off the track flags".

Anyone else?

[sinfull]

Pleased you have started this thread John as i (being relatively new) did not know that a red being waved at me would mean stop where i am, I would be just like this rider who carried on unfortunately !
You say he was indicated to, to pull off the track there but shit thats a tough one to make a call on whether he picked up that indication !

Crazzed ! The wall WAS made off limits to spectators yesterday, at riders brief !
But as has been said, the wall is not where the flags are waved from and you did crash at higgins ! Sorry mate that aint the fault of no black shirt waving spectator !
Thats would be like me saying something like, it was Sketchies (who has learnt by the way, he didn't just arrive yesterday and start winning) fault that i crashed in splash yesterday, i mean i had been chasing him for a lap and a bit since he passed me in Qualifying and well hey if i hadn't been trying so hard to stay in touch (haha ok so it was half a lap by that stage) i would never have gone into splash so hot !!!! HELLO !
You highsided at higgins mate, learn from it if you can remember how it went down, don't try and pin that on anyone else !
Black flag means you or your bike has a prob, It's waved at an individual rider not a group, you come in and see what it is ! Not go so hard you highside a minute later !

[Teambwr47]

Listen not having a go at the marshals involved, they all without exception do a great job without which we as racers would not be able to race.

I've raced at most levels in over 150 meetings and i completely agree with Frosty, in my opinion the red flag was/is the wrong flag for that type of incident. Equally while the person using the hand signals may well have known exactly what his meaning was the rider may well have a different view/interpretation of those hand signals based on all he had going on in trying to race his bike.

I completely appreciate that the officials did what they could on that day at that time for the best but the flag is still the wrong one, a black flag should have been used.

Why have the posts not got black flags?

[MSTRS]

How would you individually red flag a rider? It would be very hard at most tracks to guarantee another rider following behind had not seen the red flag shown or moved

I've always understood the flag rules (well certainly UK ACU wise) to be that, the black flag was the flag to be used to stop an individual rider and that flag should be accompanied by the rider number or failing that a very clear indication from a marshal to the rider concerned. It can be shown at marshal points and the start/finish line.

The red flag being shown to a rider could surely be easily mistaken by another following rider as the race is being stopped and while it may well not be at the next post an element of doubt on what's going on would be in place. If i ever see a red flag or glimpse it I reduce pace ASAP as its meant to be for the end of racing, most likely for a major incident or problems on track. Equally a red flag does not normally mean stop straight away (unless indicated at a point on track to do so) it means stop racing and substantially reduce pace proceeding as per instructions. I guess this could cover the rider in question being required to stop but i just question the use of the red flag for that reason?

It was an unusual situation, in that the bike involved was obviously "in trouble" and was circulating on the inside of the track at or below half race pace. Other points had attempted to stop this rider proceeding without success. We were instructed to do "whatever it took". Marshall points are not issued black flags and the term "red flag" is only ever used by race control, and if called, all points are to use the red. This call is only issued if race control is stopping the race. In the case, clearly they were not stopping the race, but simply wanted that bike off the track and not spreading fluids any further than he already had. The call to 'do whatever it takes' was clarified by the marshal on the radio with race control - who said (without saying the words) use the red. As I said, use of the words 'red flag' over the radio would mean all other points would display theirs and that was not control's intention.
Bear in mind that this bike's problem was reported by point 1 and he had now reached point 7.

[crazzed]

Crazzed ! The wall WAS made off limits to spectators yesterday, at riders brief !
But as has been said, the wall is not where the flags are waved from and you did crash at higgins ! Sorry mate that aint the fault of no black shirt waving spectator !
Thats as bad as me saying something like it was Sketchies (who has learnt by the way, he didn't just arrive yesterday and start winning) fault that i crashed in splash yesterday, i mean i had been chasing him for a lap and a bit since he passed me in Qualifying and well hey if i hadn't been trying so hard to stay in touch (haha ok so it was half a lap by that stage) i would never have gone into splash so hot !!!!
You highsided at higgins mate, learn from it if you can remember how it went down, don't try and pin that on anyone else !
Black flag means you or your bike has a prob, Come in and see what it is ! Not go so hard you highside a minute later !

as a last note im blaming the spectactor directly but it does change your mind set and i have learnt from it(note to self keep calm when overtaken for the leed). im new to racing and it's alot to comprehend all at once. just pissed i lost concentration due it. glad to hear something being done about it.

ok back on track with thread ive highjacked it enough now.

[sinfull]

Listen not having a go at the marshals involved, they all without exception do a great job without which we as racers would not be able to race.

I've raced at most levels in over 150 meetings and i completely agree with Frosty, in my opinion the red flag was/is the wrong flag for that type of incident. Equally while the person using the hand signals may well have known exactly what his meaning was the rider may well have a different view/interpretation of those hand signals based on all he had going on in trying to race his bike.

I completely appreciate that the officials did what they could on that day at that time for the best but the flag is still the wrong one, a black flag should have been used.

Why have the posts not got black flags?
Or perhaps we could learn from the experience ! A black waved at me would have me thinking somethings wrong, best i circulate at half pace back to the pits !!
Maybe as Tony said a new flag or combo of two together could be introduced ?? Get off the track and on the grass flag/s ?


as a last note im blaming the spectactor directly but it does change your mind set and i have learnt from it(note to self keep calm when overtaken for the leed). im new to racing and it's alot to comprehend all at once. just pissed i lost concentration due it. glad to hear something being done about it.

ok back on track with thread ive highjacked it enough now.
Yep and as a last note, i would ask that when your healed up and back at a meeting, come and let me know when it was you realised it was a T shirt and not a black flag, which had you go so hard you crashed ?

[ajturbo]

PLEASE NOTE...

the MNZ rep has sole charge on the presentation of ANY flag (apart from the yellow, this is presented asap after an incident at closest corner...bla, bla)
the presentation of any other colour is directed by the MNZ or clerk of the course only.

if the flag marshal is told to wave a red flag, and point at Joe blogs.

they have to do it!... the decision is taken out of their hands...

[ajturbo]

BLACK FLAG...=

get off the TRACK asap!...do NOT carry on riding around,


STOP THE BIKE AS SOON AND AS SAFELY AS YOU CAN...

[Skunk]

Seriously guys - read the rule book. You have all said you did when you applied for your race license!

Black flag is used at chief flag marshal point. Black Flag means return to the pits. You have broken the rules and are in trouble with race control.
Black and Orange dot is ONLY used at chief flag marshal point. Black Flag with Orange dot means STOP. Get off the track NOW there is an issue with the bike. Do not go any further.
Either of these flags are used by the club running the event - they are used at the instruction of the MNZ Steward.
Trouble is there is no other way of stopping a bike after it has gone past chief flag marshal.

This bike knew he was leaking oil and water and rode over one complete lap without thinking to stop and get off the track.

[ajturbo]

Shit Skunk.....

read the rule book???

WHY?????

[Kickaha]

There was a situation at Manfield 25/7/9 where a racer was spewing fluids and was individually redded to got off NOW, but who in fact continued round the track to the pits, but first moved from the inside of the track to the outside right at the entry to the fastest corner (Dunlop sweeper into the main straight).

What were the riders told at riders briefing regarding the red flags? were they told they could be made to stop on the circuit by the use of the red flag at any Marshalls post?




At the individual Marshall Points
Red waved - race is temporarily stopped, all riders drop off speed and with caution circulate to pit entrance (or sliplane as indicated by a marshall),

Which is how it should be done


In rare cases, an individual rider may be signalled with a red flag at a marshall point. That rider is to leave the track now. That means get off the track, onto the grass/whatever and out of the way as indicated by that marshall.

Red flag means the race stops, it isn't intended to be used for indivdual riders



now as you know, i was only in the pits and i was only watching it all unfold, the said rider was told in no uncertain words, (from the mnz rep and our track boss)that what he did was wrong and what he should have done... that rider will NEVER make that same mistake... and i do hope that other racers will learn from it...

I would have told the MNZ rep and track boss where to stick it, sounds like they need to brush up on what the flags are for as there is no provision in the MNZ manual for a red flag to be used to stop an individual rider on the circuit that I can see (correct me if I am wrong)


Im sorry guys to dissagree with you here. I'd say Im a reasonably experienced rider.
if I saw a red flag I would slow, Raise my left hand (curtosy to other following riders) and head back to the pits at about half race pace in a normal manner. I would at all times be prepared to stop if needed Because that is EXACTLY what a red flag tells me to do.

Exactly


If I saw a BLACK flag waved at me I would get off the racing line slow down and prepare to stop knowing full well the issue is with my conduct or there is an issue with my machine.


I'd only be doing that if my number was displayed beside it otherwise it would be business as usual


using red flag to get one rider to stop is not the proper use for it...and the riders breifing and other instruction quite clearly state to go back to the pits...

Tha's right it isn't, if a red flag is displayed the whole race stops not just one rider


Pleased you have started this thread John as i (being relatively new) did not know that a red being waved at me would mean stop where i am, I would be just like this rider who carried on unfortunately !

It doesn't and it shouldn't, the only flag that should be used is black with the number of the bike displayed beside it or in this case black/orange circle

[Nasty]

Ok who knows the cost of a flag?

To support VMCC I'd be happy to donate a black with orange spot (if they're not too expensive). Would be good to have the correct "get off the track flags".

Anyone else?

VMCC has the flags required at all points ...

The black and orange may only be used in conjunction with numbers


Black with Orange Centre: Road Race Only: Machine to be removed from the circuit immediately. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the flag is displayed. Flags must be a minimum size of 24” x 24” (600mm x 600mm).

So what you are saying is to supply flags, but number boards etc are a real cost - flags are cheap compared - the black and orange is at the start finish and often ignored by riders as well. In this case everything was done to get the rider off the track in order to reduce the damage that his bike left behind - it wasn't achieved - and no other racer was affected by the use of the flag.

[Kickaha]

Trouble is there is no other way of stopping a bike after it has gone past chief flag marshal.

Then this need revising as they did with the red flags, black/orange flags at each point to be used under the direction of the appropriate steward

[Tony.OK]

VMCC has the flags required at all points ...

The black and orange may only be used in conjunction with numbers



So what you are saying is to supply flags, but number boards etc are a real cost - flags are cheap compared - the black and orange is at the start finish and often ignored by riders as well. In this case everything was done to get the rider off the track in order to reduce the damage that his bike left behind - it wasn't achieved - and no other racer was affected by the use of the flag.

Not meaning to argue........but a blackboard and chalk from the warehouse isn't going to cost alot.

Having the black and orange at the line is great but if someones bike starts dumping fluids at turn 1 theres no real rule at the moment to signal correctly to get the rider to stop.

[Nasty]

Not meaning to argue........but a blackboard and chalk from the warehouse isn't going to cost alot.

Having the black and orange at the line is great but if someones bike starts dumping fluids at turn 1 theres no real rule at the moment to signal correctly to get the rider to stop.

Black board and chalk is hard to see ... that is the problem with that ... they tried that for the first couple of years that Grub worked as asst clerk of course and replaced it with white backing and black numbers.

[FROSTY]

Folks EVERY situation is different so planning for EVERY eventuality is impossible.
If the following helps in any way please take it.
I tried an experiment at the last KB track day.
What I did was ran a "rolling red" --which meant that the red flag was put out and waved at each flag point as the rider "at fault" came up to the flag point. It was then pulled in the moment they were past.
In my opinion it worked very well
-For trackdays I do the KISS thing and basicly its only the red and yellow flag used
IN THIS CASE of course Id suggest a rolling BLACK with the rider number displayed on the pit wall. In all honesty if a rider misses 2 flag points they are in my opinion too myopic to be safely allowed to race anyway.
(says he that missed the red end of session flag at the 07 bots)

[roadracingoldfart]

BLACK FLAG...=

get off the TRACK asap!...do NOT carry on riding around,


STOP THE BIKE AS SOON AND AS SAFELY AS YOU CAN...

Thats not what i read A.J but im just new to this shit. :shutup:

6-19 The following flags will be recognised as the standard colours to be used as signals to riders during a race:
Green: Start
Red : All riders stop racing.
Yellow: Held Stationary – SLOW DOWN – Proceed with caution. No overtaking until danger area is passed. Sidecar riders-this could also mean your passenger is in difficulties.
Yellow: Waved – SLOW DOWN NOW – Proceed with extreme caution.
No overtaking until the danger area is passed, be prepared to stop.
White: Last lap.
Black:Individual rider to stop and retire from course. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the black flag is displayed.Black and White Check: Finish for all riders.
Red and Yellow Stripes: Oil on course.
Red and White Cross: Ambulance on course, proceed with caution.
Black with Orange Centre:Road Race Only: Machine to be removed from the circuit immediately. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the flag is displayed. Flags must be a minimum size of 24” x 24” (600mm x 600mm).
Black and White Stripe: Oval Track Only, Competitor under protest. The rider’s
number must be shown on a board at the same point as the flag is displayed.
Blue Waved: SX Only. Warning you are about to be lapped.
Blue Waved Road Racing: Overtaking signal warning rider is about to be overtaken.
Blue Held Stationary Road Racing: Indicates that competitor is soon to be overtaken.
6-19-1 Failure to observe flag instructions and signals renders riders liable to fine, exclusion,

If i had a red flag waved at me and i DID NOT know my bike had oil leaking i would carry on to the pit lane as i personally would never be able to interperate that i was the ONLY rider getting a RED flag waved.
I agree there is a gap in communication and training can be improved (with regards to your entry exam for MNZ licence, bring it on ) but if the rule book is what we have to learn then in my eye the rider in question has done all he was expected to do especially if he DID NOT know his bike was creating a hazard on the track. If a marshall was waving a flag frantically i would immediatly (no matter how fast i was riding ) look ahead and possibly miss the further hand direction as a red flag means there is something ahead that may cause me harm.
If the rider leaking oil WAS aware of his leak and crossed the track and continuied to the pits then nothing short of a laser beam in his direction and an account for cleaning the mess up should be presented.

[sinfull]

Black Flag means return to the pits. You have broken the rules and are in trouble with race control.
Black Flag means STOP. Get off the track NOW there is an issue with the bike. Do not go any further.
.
Which one ?
Ok your prolly gonna burn me and make me study something horrid but where the hell on the MNZ site are the flag rules ?

[Kickaha]

Which one ?
Ok your prolly gonna burn me and make me study something horrid but where the hell on the MNZ site are the flag rules ?

Chapter 6...

[ajturbo]

Thats not what i read A.J but im just new to this shit. :shutup:

6-19 The following flags will be recognised as the standard colours to be used as signals to riders during a race:
Green: Start
Red : All riders stop racing.
Yellow: Held Stationary – SLOW DOWN – Proceed with caution. No overtaking until danger area is passed. Sidecar riders-this could also mean your passenger is in difficulties.
Yellow: Waved – SLOW DOWN NOW – Proceed with extreme caution.
No overtaking until the danger area is passed, be prepared to stop.
White: Last lap.
Black:Individual rider to stop and retire from course. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the black flag is displayed.Black and White Check: Finish for all riders.
Red and Yellow Stripes: Oil on course.
Red and White Cross: Ambulance on course, proceed with caution.
Black with Orange Centre:Road Race Only: Machine to be removed from the circuit immediately. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the flag is displayed. Flags must be a minimum size of 24” x 24” (600mm x 600mm).
Black and White Stripe: Oval Track Only, Competitor under protest. The rider’s
number must be shown on a board at the same point as the flag is displayed.
Blue Waved: SX Only. Warning you are about to be lapped.
Blue Waved Road Racing: Overtaking signal warning rider is about to be overtaken.
Blue Held Stationary Road Racing: Indicates that competitor is soon to be overtaken.
6-19-1 Failure to observe flag instructions and signals renders riders liable to fine, exclusion,

If i had a red flag waved at me and i DID NOT know my bike had oil leaking i would carry on to the pit lane as i personally would never be able to interperate that i was the ONLY rider getting a RED flag waved.
I agree there is a gap in communication and training can be improved (with regards to your entry exam for MNZ licence, bring it on ) but if the rule book is what we have to learn then in my eye the rider in question has done all he was expected to do especially if he DID NOT know his bike was creating a hazard on the track. If a marshall was waving a flag frantically i would immediatly (no matter how fast i was riding ) look ahead and possibly miss the further hand direction as a red flag means there is something ahead that may cause me harm.
If the rider leaking oil WAS aware of his leak and crossed the track and continuied to the pits then nothing short of a laser beam in his direction and an account for cleaning the mess up should be presented.
thanks Paul :niceone:

[MSTRS]

Red flag means the race stops, it isn't intended to be used for indivdual riders


And that is how I always understood it as well. I've marshalled at most summer and winter meets Taupo and Manfield for the last 2+ years, and that is exactly what we've done in all that time.
This time was a little different, and really, we were out of options as to how to get through to this rider. He'd been past our point already, at race pace (for SS) spewing smoke off his exhaust from behind his belly fairing, he'd been past race control and then reported by point 1 as dropping fluids, ignored point 2 (if they got the call in time), ignored point 3, gone past the sliplane on the same side of the track as it's entry, ignored point 4, ignored point 5 (there was no point 6) so by the time he got to point 7 (us) Control had considered and decided that using the red accompanied by the 'get off now' actions was justified. But this guy ignored that too, crossed the track and proceeded the rest of the way round and exited at pit lane.
OK - it could be said that he did nothing wrong, according to the rules. He was not black flagged at the start/finish line, so whilst he realised he had a problem and dropped off race pace, got to one side of the track and continued as long as able to eventually leave the track via pit lane...he had ample warning to 'get off now' at least 3 points before ours, so by the time he got the red flag at ours, he could have been under no illusion that what he was doing was a problem.

[MSTRS]

If the rider leaking oil WAS aware of his leak and crossed the track and continuied to the pits then nothing short of a laser beam in his direction and an account for cleaning the mess up should be presented.

Can't say if he was aware of fluid leaking, but he was aware that all was not well with the bike, and he couldn't fail to be aware that marshalls wanted him to stop and get off the track.

[quickbuck]

This bike knew he was leaking oil and water and rode over one complete lap without thinking to stop and get off the track.
The bike knew, but the RIDER didn't.
Seriously. He thought it was a loose peg that caused his foot to fall off it... Never dreamt it was a major cam cover gasket failure....

We are indeed talking inexperience on a 250 here....

No water was leaked onto the track either......

To be honest I had an engine fire oil all over the wheel of a road bike a while back, and the first i know was many kilometres later too.... when I almost binned on a right hander in town!


As for the Flag situation, there is nothing to get the bike off the track straight away.... Red flag situations mean return to pits at reduced pace, as briefed.

As for hand signals, well if I said to you the best way to stop that particular rider from continuing would be to stand in front with arms crossed above head with fists clentched.... You would say, "WTF, I have no idea what that means...." But this person knows EXACTLY what that means.
Yes, I do know who it was, and he will NEVER do it again.

Remember people, that race bikes don't have mirrors, and it is really hard to see the trail of smoke behind you......

[sinfull]

Chapter 6... Thanks ! Knew i'd read it somewhere but was flicking through it all trying to locate it and did'nt go down far enough to see it in chapter 6 !
YES I HAD READ IT lol

Looks to me to be a case of don't shoot the rider, get some more flags and boards !

[Drew]

and you didn't learn you went straight out and were at the top. as stated i was racing clubmans when this happened.

You are clearly not that observant.

A word of warning, dont race the street circuits. The public are all wearing different colours, and shit gets real confusing.

[yungatart]

The bike knew, but the RIDER didn't.
Seriously. He thought it was a loose peg that caused his foot to fall off it... Never dreamt it was a major cam cover gasket failure....

We are indeed talking inexperience on a 250 here....

No water was leaked onto the track either......


Remember people, that race bikes don't have mirrors, and it is really hard to see the trail of smoke behind you......

Sorry, there was water! After he crossed the track at point 7 the oil started...a trail of oil right around the sweeper...races delayed by some 40 mins to clean up the mess.

[quickbuck]

Sorry, there was water! After he crossed the track at point 7 the oil started...a trail of oil right around the sweeper...races delayed by some 40 mins to clean up the mess.

Sh1t, sorry, I means water from the subject bike.... It wat a blown Cam cover gasket, not a head gasket.

Of course there was Bloody water!!! Only person who thought it was fun was Neil.... As usual, everybody else complained.

[BMWST?]

And that is how I always understood it as well. I've marshalled at most summer and winter meets Taupo and Manfield for the last 2+ years, and that is exactly what we've done in all that time.
This time was a little different...........OK - it could be said that he did nothing wrong, according to the rules. He was not black flagged at the start/finish line, so whilst he realised he had a problem and dropped off race pace, got to one side of the track and continued as long as able to eventually leave the track via pit lane...

he didnt do anything wrong.....you have said he wasnt black flagged,and the red flag doesnt mean get of the the track now....tell me exactly what was said at the riders breifing re the red flag.


had ample warning to 'get off now' at least 3 points before ours, so by the time he got the red flag at ours, he could have been under no illusion that what he was doing was a problem

that is entirely your interpretation,he didnt have someone telling him what to do through a radio earpiece,he was cruising back to the pits,probably wondering a) what was wrong with his bike,or b) wondering how he was gonna fix it.There are always two sides to a story,you are not seeing things how he saw them

[FROSTY]

Ok the way I see it a race is gonna be stopped if a bikes dumping oil on the track. SO the number thing on the black flag is academic really.
Hmm unless the oil flag is used at the point before the oils dumped I suppose.
Sorry folks it really seems to me that the wrong flag was used.
arguably the black/orange should have been used but at least the black.

[Deano]

Are there any colourblind racers out there ?

How the hell do they get on ?

[quickbuck]

that is entirely your interpretation,he didnt have someone telling him what to do through a radio earpiece,he was cruising back to the pits,probably wondering a) what was wrong with his bike,or b) wondering how he was gonna fix it.There are always two sides to a story,you are not seeing things how he saw them

EXACTLY!

He honestly thought his foot peg was loose....

I wonder how many people out there have had the experience of their engine putting oil all over the place???

And what exactly did you do?
Remember almost all motorcyclists go through life without this happening....
It is rare!

What would you normally do when people waive the flags at you?
You would do as briefed surely?
Anything else "Made up" after briefing CAN NOT be chastised.

[Ivan]

Perhaps. Remember, it is a rare case, and use of black flag requires rider number too. And we marshalls are an illiterate lot, without marker pens etc.

yes but he did the right thing then if given a red flag the rider shall slow down to a safe pace and circulate back around to the pits. Not just stop then and there I can give a reason I have seen for this to and its not a nice result.

A black flag is more appropraite if a marshell used the wrong flag then it his his problem not the riders.

[quickbuck]

Ok the way I see it a race is gonna be stopped if a bikes dumping oil on the track. SO the number thing on the black flag is academic really.
Hmm unless the oil flag is used at the point before the oils dumped I suppose.
Sorry folks it really seems to me that the wrong flag was used.
arguably the black/orange should have been used but at least the black.

Good point.

In this case it was qualifying though....

[quickbuck]

Not just stop then and there I can give a reason I have seen for this to and its not a nice result.

.

Correct.


I can only imagine how bad the example you have ended......

[Ivan]

You try tell a rider that at riders breifing who was told a red flag is hand in the air slow down from race pace and circulate back to pit lane and form up in the marked area of pit lane to allow room for the ambulance and not to stop on track at any point or ry and help a fallen rider as we have marshells there for that job that this rider has done wrong.

You are now trying to say that after the rule he was told he is then ment to break? by stopping instantly.

Waving a red at one rider means wopdy shit he is still going to think the race is over and to circulate and you doing the stop thing at him most riders wouldnt be watching the marshell they are watching the flag, Waving saying stop probably he got confused and thought oh stop the race Red Flag situation.

Im sorry om on the riders side for this one if it was a black flag or a black and orange flag then that is a differnt story but using the wrong flag that has its own meaning and saying the rider did wrong for doing what the red flag means then I cant understand it

[Ivan]

Correct.


I can only imagine how bad the example you have ended......

this happened at a meeting a few years ago the red flag came out and instead of riders ciculating to the pits riders stopped on the grid and a collision occured sadly with one rider losing his life.

[MSTRS]

Sh1t, sorry, I means water from the subject bike.... It wat a blown Cam cover gasket, not a head gasket.

Of course there was Bloody water!!! Only person who thought it was fun was Neil.... As usual, everybody else complained.
All I can tell you is that there was water (in the form of big globules - not a rainwater) alonmg the line he was riding and across the track where he crossed. The oil line started once he was on the outside of the track. Thank goodness. If it had been left across the track at that point, it is concieveable that the meet might have been called.

he didnt do anything wrong.....you have said he wasnt black flagged,and the red flag doesnt mean get of the the track now....tell me exactly what was said at the riders breifing re the red flag.
that is entirely your interpretation,he didnt have someone telling him what to do through a radio earpiece,he was cruising back to the pits,probably wondering a) what was wrong with his bike,or b) wondering how he was gonna fix it.There are always two sides to a story,you are not seeing things how he saw them
"Technically" he didn't do (too much) wrong, BUT could be under no illusion point after point as to what officials wanted him to do. Marshalls don't attend rider's briefing, so I don't know what was said. I would assume that the flags, and their meanings, are mentioned and that riders are to follow instructions. There are some instances where an action is required that may not be covered entirely with a few simple flags...

Not just stop then and there I can give a reason I have seen for this to and its not a nice result.

Oh, absolutely! There is no way that a rider would be expected to stop on the track. Or in such a position that they would be left vulnerable to following riders. This situation was not in that vein.



In this case it was qualifying though....
I don't think so. It was during the Streetstocks first race.

[Ivan]

now I have all the repect in the world for the marshells so dont get me wrong I am not being a arrogent shit Im just saying what the rules are and the marshells should have the correct flags supplyed to them,

from reading your last post if he didnt do much wrong is there really a point for this thread as basically now the rider has pretty much been said who he was without naming him by saying what class he was in etc and he is probably a new comer and sees this post and feels like shit that people are saying he should know better etc and could put him off racing If there is an issue there is a riders rep to see on the day or race control and MNZ steward could be approached not leave it then Rip into someone on the net

I know your not being melicous just threads like this can allow for people to be abused by alot of keyboard heroes on this forum

[roadracingoldfart]

Marshalls don't attend rider's briefing, so I don't know what was said. I would assume that the flags, and their meanings, are mentioned and that riders are to follow instructions.


Well there is a point i have mentioned before and i personally would like to see both Marshalls and Riders attend the same briefing. That way there is a cross over of understanding and NO grey areas as to who is aware of what may happen and what is expected of either in a given situation.

In this instance the rider DID "follow instructions "to the letter and yet there is a lynch mob assembling to cover over a bad call by the limited flags available. If the rider was given a wolloping by the MNZ steward then he is due an appology by same.

Racers are expected to know the rules and yet the MNZ steward can cock up something like a wet race rule or a bad flag call and nothing happens. WTF ??

Paul.

[ajturbo]

Well there is a point i have mentioned before and i personally would like to see both Marshalls and Riders attend the same briefing. That way there is a cross over of understanding and NO grey areas as to who is aware of what may happen and what is expected of either in a given situation.

In this instance the rider DID "follow instructions "to the letter and yet there is a lynch mob assembling to cover over a bad call by the limited flags available. If the rider was given a wolloping by the MNZ steward then he is due an appology by same.

Racers are expected to know the rules and yet the MNZ steward can cock up something like a wet race rule or a bad flag call and nothing happens. WTF ??

Paul.
i can see an interesting chat soon eh?

[MSTRS]

Good call. No intent to pillory this guy. Just trying to clarify flags and their rules.
It would seem that there is a good case for marshalls to have a greater range available to cover the rare situations like this one was.

[roadracingoldfart]

i can see an interesting chat soon eh?

You mean there is a good chance you are going to drink all my beer while i rabbit on :2guns: :laugh:

[FROSTY]

After a quick chat with somebody closely involved I would like to make this offer to VMCC.
Millars Car Centre will if needed purchase enough black flags for EVERY marshal point round the track.
I think this has in a VERY lucky way highlighted an issue.
No offence meant to anyone involved I do feel that strongly about the need for sufficient black flags being available to keep riders "safe".

[roadracingoldfart]

Good call. No intent to pillory this guy. Just trying to clarify flags and their rules.
It would seem that there is a good case for marshalls to have a greater range available to cover the rare situations like this one was.


I get asked why i have $40.000 worth of tools at work , simple , i need it its there even if thats 2 times a year, same with flags , they dont have to be used but if they are needed they are available and communication is then clear. That makes it safe too.

Shit , the easiest stuff works best aye .

[Skunk]

You CAN'T have Black Flag with the Orange Dot and a number system at every flagpoint. Read the Rule Book. Stop suggesting it.

We had a situation and tried to deal with it. It failed. The Red flag was the only weapon in the arsenal. We were out-gunned...

[Skunk]

Well there is a point i have mentioned before and i personally would like to see both Marshalls and Riders attend the same briefing. That way there is a cross over of understanding and NO grey areas as to who is aware of what may happen and what is expected of either in a given situation.
At present the flaggies are going out onto the circuit as the riders briefing is being held.

[Her_C4]

Can't say if he was aware of fluid leaking, but he was aware that all was not well with the bike, and he couldn't fail to be aware that marshalls wanted him to stop and get off the track.


yes but he did the right thing then if given a red flag the rider shall slow down to a safe pace and circulate back around to the pits. Not just stop then and there I can give a reason I have seen for this to and its not a nice result.

A black flag is more appropraite if a marshell used the wrong flag then it his his problem not the riders.

Interesting thread, CF and I talked about the incident on the way home last night. Not having read ALL the thread I will risk raising the ire of those who were not out there at the time, but have commented regardless.

MSTRS I have now (belatedly) realised that it was you marshalling at that point or I would have introduced myself!!

Regardless - I was on top of the wall by the marshalling point taking photo's directly into the hairpin, when the rider came around. He was on the outside of the track riding slowly and his bike was spluttering somewhat so at that stage I would have been very suprised if he was not aware that he was leaving a legacy of oil etc for other riders.

By the time the rider came around to MSTRS marshall point, he was still on the outside of the track and hestitated when he saw the flag being waved with the instruction to pull the bike over. The message was very clear and the rider appeared to understand that he needed to pull off and he hestitated for a bit - looking back at his bike several times and then at the track behind him before slowing down even more and pulling left a bit... and then continued.

It is perhaps worth noting that he was the only rider on that part of the track at that time, and apart from climbing down and knocking him off his bike, I don't think that MSTRS could have done anything else at that time. His instructions were clear and his hand signals (stop and pull in here) could not have been misconstrued - the speed of the rider (or lack thereof) meant that he had a very clear view of the instructions for quite some time :done:

Phew that was my .000002 cents worth :sunny:

[Skunk]

There is of course the MNZ rule that states that if you cannot continue at race pace (which he was not) park the bike.

He broke that rule fair and square.

[MSTRS]

Thank you, HerB4.
Point of order...If there is continued fall out over this 'incident', and this thread gets used for 'evidence', it is important to note that the rider was not on the outside of the track, until he crossed just after Point 7. He was on the right hand side of the track in the normal clockwise direction of travel. That means he was on the inside of the track.

I don't know whether a situation like this one has come up before, but can only assume that it has. There is nothing new under the sun. The flag system and it's rules has been developed over many years in response to, and anticipation of, problems. I can only guess that if it's happened before, then the marshal/s and rider/s have 'got it right', and MNZ saw no need to adjust the rules to include this rare use of a red. Or whatever. Perhaps it's time they did?

At a guess, if this situation has happened before, then all points were asked to display a red, in which case riders would slow and return to the pitlane grid. Also in which case, the fluid leaking bike would still spread it's nastiness around the track. Is it possible that officials in this case wanted to avoid that long-distance spread? And in this particular case, with respect to the class, experience, speed and spread of riders and in the absence of any other suitable flag/rule, opted to go with the individually targetted red? Sometimes, if a situation warrants it, commonsense should over-ride rigid rules.

[FROSTY]

You CAN'T have Black Flag with the Orange Dot and a number system at every flagpoint. Read the Rule Book. Stop suggesting it.

We had a situation and tried to deal with it. It failed. The Red flag was the only weapon in the arsenal. We were out-gunned...
m not SUGGESTING anything here skunk ol son Im OFFERING to supply a BLACK flag for every marshalpoint. In other words Im offering to supply a viable solution to the issue if you are happy taking it.
The FANTASTIC thing about this situation is that it at extremly low cost in life and machinery has highlighted a possibly deadly issue.

As an aside and not being a smart ass here -my 5 year old knows and understands the meaning (in kid terms) of ALL the BASIC flags.
Green---means GO
Red means STOP
Yellow means -BE CAREFUL
BLACK means NAUGHTY -get off the track
Blue Means Get outa the way.
White means last lap
Black n white means YOU WON
The more complicated flags he struggles with except the red cross--AMBULANCE


I know this is over simplification but I figure that a young racer jazzed up on adrenalin has the effective mentality of a 5 year old so it may be relivant.

[Skunk]

m not SUGGESTING anything here skunk ol son Im OFFERING to supply a BLACK flag for every marshalpoint. In other words Im offering to supply a viable solution to the issue if you are happy taking it. [/I]
Sorry Frosty. What I mean is we can't. The MNZ rules say so.
We are only allowed the Black and the Black and Orange at the Chief Flag Marshals point.

The Ambulance one is an example - The ambulance doesn't go onto the track until racing stops. When racing stops everyone comes into the pits. So why do we have an Ambulance flag? So the Ambulance knows it's on the track? :lol:

[MSTRS]

Sorry Frosty. What I mean is we can't. The MNZ rules say so.
We are only allowed the Black and the Black and Orange at the Chief Flag Marshals point.



Thought so. Is there sufficient likelihood of this situation arising again? I'd say so. In which case, some method of effectively isolating a single bike, and getting him off the track is going to have to be worked out. And included in The Rules™.

[Skunk]

Shoot out his tyres? Throw stones (there seem to do a few qualified stone throwers here)? :laugh:

He broke the 'Park it' rule. End of story. We shouldn't need a flag.

It will happen again. It's happened in the past. The joy of running a Race Meeting I guess.

[MSTRS]

Shoot out his tyres? Throw stones (there seem to do a few qualified stone throwers here)? :laugh:

He broke the 'Park it' rule. End of story. We shouldn't need a flag.

It will happen again. It's happened in the past. The joy of running a Race Meeting I guess.

Stress at Rider's Briefing that a bike problem means pull off track to a safe place (as directed by a marshal?) - at least until problem can be identified, perhaps?

[Skunk]

Read the rule book at riders briefing :lol:

"Riders briefing will start at midnight outside the track gates - all riders must attend" :shifty:

[MSTRS]

Hook up transponders to the bike's kill switch, and a track control panel?

[FROSTY]

All good Skunk--But I think you will find that a BLACK flag can be displayed elsewhere. Yes it SHOULD have the riders number by it but what the hey. At Tech perhaps the a little bit of emphasis needs to be placed on the phrase --If you see the BLACK flag waved-MOVE OFF THE RACEING LINE and procede to the pits.

[MSTRS]

All good Skunk--But I think you will find that a BLACK flag can be displayed elsewhere. Yes it SHOULD have the riders number by it but what the hey. At Tech perhaps the a little bit of emphasis needs to be placed on the phrase --If you see the BLACK flag waved-MOVE OFF THE RACEING LINE and procede to the pits.

Perhaps. Then you might as well hang out the Red at all points. Doesn't address the problem of an oil dripper...who won't get off the track when signalled.

[FROSTY]

sorry mate NO--a RED says one thing a BLACK says something totally different. Again in Kid talk -Red--DANGER ahead Black YOU have been naughty. Quite rightly I would react differently to the two flags.

[Tony.OK]

Sorry Frosty. What I mean is we can't. The MNZ rules say so.
We are only allowed the Black and the Black and Orange at the Chief Flag Marshals point.


Call me old and blind....................ya couldn't direct me to which chapter thats in?:blink:

[MSTRS]

sorry mate NO--a RED says one thing a BLACK says something totally different. Again in Kid talk -Red--DANGER ahead Black YOU have been naughty. Quite rightly I would react differently to the two flags.

I hear what you are trying to say...but neither flag means get off the track - where you are - right now. They simply request you leave the track at the next offlane opportunity.

[Ivan]

There is of course the MNZ rule that states that if you cannot continue at race pace (which he was not) park the bike.

He broke that rule fair and square.

Sorry not being picky but I thought this was a club rule only that the Vicclub made.

Which in my opinion is an awsome rule I just didnt think it was an Official MNZ rule sorry if it is but I know the rule if you cant run park it.

[quickbuck]

Sorry not being picky but I thought this was a club rule only that the Vicclub made.

Which in my opinion is an awsome rule I just didnt think it was an Official MNZ rule sorry if it is but I know the rule if you cant run park it.

The "Park It" Rule... Well, um, who determines a safe place to "Park It" on the race track?
There will always be a danger as soon as there is a parked vehicle on the track, and then obviously Yellow will be waived.....

In this case... well, may not be this one, but when the qualifying is SERIOUS this really means end of session, until danger is cleared.
Obvious really, as imagine if you were Rossi on your Qual lap, and somebody decided to park their bike track side, this means yellow right?
Then obviously NO OVERTAKING... So there goes the Hot Lap if Mr Rossi comes upon somebody on their cool down.

Another problem with the Park It rule... What happens if somebody bins and hits the parked bike? Worse than a 40 minute oil clean up I bet....

And many more posts on KB too I suspect.....

BUT just to contradict myself, it (the park it rule) does have a benefit for running a very tight schedule, and giving more than 3 classes one race each...
We are at club level after all.

The racers and Marshals have to do a good think about where they put the broken bike when using the park it rule... Which I'm sure they do/will....

Still comes back to how DO we tell the rider his bike has had a major failure?
I guess in this incident more experience may have helped.... May have...

There will alway be "this one time" though...

[FROSTY]

Ill focus on the two flags we are concerned about.
Black with Orange Centre:Road Race Only: Machine to be removed from the circuit immediately. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the flag is displayed. Flags must be a minimum size of 24” x 24” (600mm x 600mm).
BLACK-
Individual rider to stop and retire from course. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the black flag is displayed.
no mention of --its only to be displayed at head marshalls point.

[ajturbo]

There is of course the MNZ rule that states that if you cannot continue at race pace (which he was not) park the bike.

He broke that rule fair and square.

looks like i will be INCLUDING the 250/4's in my SS riders briefing???

[Skunk]

Sorry not being picky but I thought this was a club rule only that the Vicclub made.

Which in my opinion is an awsome rule I just didnt think it was an Official MNZ rule sorry if it is but I know the rule if you cant run park it.6-8-1 {EDITED}


Ill focus on the two flags we are concerned about.
Black with Orange Centre:Road Race Only: Machine to be removed from the circuit immediately. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the flag is displayed. Flags must be a minimum size of 24” x 24” (600mm x 600mm).
BLACK-
Individual rider to stop and retire from course. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the black flag is displayed.
no mention of --its only to be displayed at head marshalls point.

Call me old and blind....................ya couldn't direct me to which chapter thats in?:blink:I'm lookin'...
And I'm not finding it. Spoke to a Steward who said it's there but can't find it either.
OK, take it as I'm wrong. I apologise for putting everyone crook. I'm currently studing the Rule book and I'm sure I saw it - but no - I didn't.

[Burrt Badger]

Try Chapter 6, Section 19, as in 6-19

[Burrt Badger]

Disabled machine rule is 22-1-1

[Tony.OK]

6-8-2


I'm lookin'...
And I'm not finding it. Spoke to a Steward who said it's there but can't find it either.
OK, take it as I'm wrong. I apologise for putting everyone crook. I'm currently studing the Rule book and I'm sure I saw it - but no - I didn't.
Good thread this.................exc way for us all to suss out the rules.

Try Chapter 6, Section 19, as in 6-19

Yeah thats all i could find too.

From a riders perspective I know how easy it is to have tunnel vision, I don't even see people behind the pit wall when at full noise.
And if anything comes from Frosty's offer it will for me be a little more piece of mind knowing that things could be even just a tiny bit safer.

As for the board with riders # on it..................a very cheap answer could be one of those large permanent markers and an A3/A2 tech drawing pad?

[Skunk]

6-8-1 {EDITED}This is the first mention of a disabled bike (I originally had 6-8-2 which is the wrong one)

Disabled machine rule is 22-1-1
That's the one I was looking for.

[Skunk]

As for the board with riders # on it..................a very cheap answer could be one of those large permanent markers and an A3/A2 tech drawing pad?
I'll add it to my list of things to mention to the club.

[roadracingoldfart]

Good thread this.................exc way for us all to suss out the rules.





Ahhh its like a civilian licence Tony , we all know there is at least 50% unknown to all that hold one :shit:

[MSTRS]

Disabled machine rule is 22-1-1


22-1-1 If during practice or racing a competitors machine malfunctions or becomes disabled for
any reason and the competitor is unable to continue racing s/he must hold their line until it
is safe to move as quickly and as safely as possible from the track. The machine must be
parked as far from the track as practical and the rider should move to the safest available
position.
Is this mentioned specifically at Riders Briefing?
I know it's impossible to go through all the rules, but the ones that refer to what happens whilst on the track are pretty damned important.

[scrivy]

I don't know the exact details of the event, but I can't see that the Disabled machine rule is 22-1-1 would have helped in this case? Afterall, the rider was unaware of a disability of his machine, so wouldn't have needed to pull off the track.

In my 22 years of racing, a black flag (with number displayed) or black with an orange dot hasn't helped a hell of a lot. Most racers aren't focused on seeing a black flag, but rather a yellow or red flag.
There is an inherent failure of our licensing system that enables us to race, without passing an exam on the understanding of the rules, or declaring colour blindness or physical or mental abilities. I know of a colour blind competitor, and I also know of competitors that would never be able to see a hand written number on a board 20 metres away. Who are we kidding?? Can you see a hand written number on a board at a marshall point midway down a straight at 200kms? I doubt I could!
Let's stop pissing into the wind. How many clubs have a full complement of coloured flags? How many have enough of all colours for each marshall point?
It doesn't happen!
Why can't the waived yellow be given more importance for what it is - BE PREPARED TO STOP!
Sidecar riders know full well that if you see the waived yellow, you sure as shit have to look behind you to see if you still have your passenger!! Also, to see if you are dragging or leaking anything. Why can't all classes just look around also?? Afterall, when there is a yellow flag on display, you aint allowed to pass, so take your time, have a good look (and a breather if necessary) then proceed. Far better than confusing everyone out there, and no need to have to stop a race. Small clubs simply can't afford all the flags and have sufficient training for all its flaggies.

My .02 cents worth.

[Skunk]

I don't know the exact details of the event, but I can't see that the Disabled machine rule is 22-1-1 would have helped in this case? Afterall, the rider was unaware of a disability of his machine, so wouldn't have needed to pull off the track.

In my 22 years of racing, a black flag (with number displayed) or black with an orange dot hasn't helped a hell of a lot. Most racers aren't focused on seeing a black flag, but rather a yellow or red flag.<snip>
In this case the rider did know something was wrong and was not on race pace. Rule 22-1-1 should have kicked in for him.

Agree with all your other comments. We can get the flags but our experience has been as you describe.

[Billy]

looks like i will be INCLUDING the 250/4's in my SS riders briefing???

Good thinking batman!Have you thought about including Clubmans in those extra briefings ?

[quickbuck]

In this case the rider did know something was wrong and was not on race pace. Rule 22-1-1 should have kicked in for him.

Agree with all your other comments. We can get the flags but our experience has been as you describe.
Okay, I'll say it Again.....

He honestly thought it was a loose peg.

You have it, he wasn't going at race pace because flags were coming out all over the place.

No idea that he had dumped oil everywhere.

Now, i haven't had time to diagnose the problem fully, but I do suspect there is a kink in the breather line that is in the catch bottle....

Why do I say that? Well, there isn't normally THAT much pressure up there to blow the gasket out where it did.

I think we will be getting together this weekend and removing an FZR engine and give it a good going over.

[Skunk]

I know it seems I'm haviung a go at him but I'm not. I'm just trying to tell people who weren't there what he did wrong, why the red flags were used and all that shit.
Really, he's been talked to by the Steward so that's the end of the actual problem. Everything else here is just dicussion on how to deal with similar in the future.

Hope you get it sorted and we'll see you at the next round. (Paint some leaky oil marks on the side - that'll wind everyone up! :lol: )

[quickbuck]

I know it seems I'm haviung a go at him but I'm not. I'm just trying to tell people who weren't there what he did wrong, why the red flags were used and all that shit.
Really, he's been talked to by the Steward so that's the end of the actual problem. Everything else here is just dicussion on how to deal with similar in the future.

Hope you get it sorted and we'll see you at the next round. (Paint some leaky oil marks on the side - that'll wind everyone up! :lol: )

Na, realise you aren't having a go at him.... Just want to clarify that due to what ever reason the rider had no idea that the bike was PUMPING out oil...

He is new... and will learn FAST! That is a promise.

Yes, a talking to by the Steward... Understatement.... And, true, end of the matter really. Is a good learnng point for ALL, I agree.

The oil streek paint scheme... Now that is an idea.......

He will be back, just need some more support from the team.... Oh, and it would help if the bike turned up a bit earlier than Friday Night before race day for the maintenance required ;)
Neil wasn't really too impressed, and Lee was wondering why his 600 wouldn't start (Blaming battery when the kill switch was in the O.F.F. Position...... )
So I ran away before the tension got too much....

Will see if I get time to look at the FZR tomorrow.

[MSTRS]

Okay, I'll say it Again.....

He honestly thought it was a loose peg.

You have it, he wasn't going at race pace because flags were coming out all over the place.

No idea that he had dumped oil everywhere.



Also not 'having a go'...but...with all the flags and arm waving/pointing etc (at least at our station) what do you suggest we marshalls could have done to make our intentions absolutely clear?

[Kickaha]

what do you suggest we marshalls could have done to make our intentions absolutely clear?

Take a gun and shoot offending riders off their bike:2guns:

[FROSTY]

Ok folks quite honestly had the cheif steward given me that kinda reaming one of two things would have happened. I woulda bitten right on back at him. OR I just wouldn't have come back

[PirateJafa]

Also not 'having a go'...but...with all the flags and arm waving/pointing etc (at least at our station) what do you suggest we marshalls could have done to make our intentions absolutely clear?
Bought some black flags, to be honest.

From reading all the views in this thread, it sure doesn't look like it's the rider's fault. Red flags coming out everywhere (from his view) - right, time to slow down and head back to the pits.

If you don't have the necessary flags, or the rules do not allow you to use them out at your stations, then accept that, don't push the blame on the rider, and instead bring it up at the next MNZ meeting. Or push it through some other means if you want a more urgent reform - it's up to you to show the initiative here.

[scrivy]

As I said previously, we have a flag that can be used right now for this cause. The yellow flag.
But once the yellow is displayed, how does the rider know what it is for?? He has to slow down and look around!! Sidecar riders could have lost a passenger, or solos could have bits/fluids coming from their machine.
Come on everyone - when a yellow flag is displayed, NO ONE CAN OVERTAKE YOU!!!! SO SLOW DOWN AND OBSERVE YOUR SURROUNDINGS!!
If you go through a patch of oil on the track and crash, whos fault is it if you'd been shown a flag prior to it???? Most people have the misconstrued idea that all you have to do is slow down slightly - I've seen this time and time again.
FFS!! Why am I having to slow down?? What are the perceived dangers I'm about to be confronted with?? Is there a rabbit about to cross the track?? How would I know if I hadn't looked around - this should also clearly mean observing the marshalls - afterall, they are the eyes and ears for you the racers - so by all means, if they are waving arms etc, then FFS, go to walking speed if you have to and LOOK everywhere - including yourself!! Marshalls aren't just there as ornaments - they are there to be observed!!

Yellow: Held Stationary – SLOW DOWN – Proceed with caution. No overtaking until danger area is passed. Sidecar riders-this could also mean your passenger is in difficulties.

Yellow: Waved – SLOW DOWN NOW – Proceed with extreme caution. No overtaking until the danger area is passed, be prepared to stop.

The above examples are pretty clear really. Maybe it should just include - TAKE A LOOK AT YOUR MACHINE ALSO!

[MSTRS]

Take a gun and shoot offending riders ...


Bought some black flags, to be honest...


As I said previously, we have a flag that can be used right now for this cause. The yellow flag.

So...no real idea as to what we could have done at the time. As I said much earlier, this was a rare case...I've never been involved in trying to get a bike stopped and off the track before, although I guess it does happen sometimes.
Perhaps marshalls do indeed need a greater range of flags to use?

[Kickaha]

[I]Yellow: Held Stationary – SLOW DOWN – Proceed with caution. No overtaking until danger area is passed. Sidecar riders-this could also mean your passenger is in difficulties.


Divvo would have that one waved at him pretty much full time then

[scrivy]

Divvo would have that one waved at him pretty much full time then

Physical or mental............???? :shutup::stupid:

[scrivy]

So...no real idea as to what we could have done at the time. As I said much earlier, this was a rare case...I've never been involved in trying to get a bike stopped and off the track before, although I guess it does happen sometimes.
Perhaps marshalls do indeed need a greater range of flags to use?

It never ceases to amaze me, that most riders think the yellow flag is always for someone else!
Remember - a yellow flag could be because of you!

A sidecar rider MUST look to see if his passenger has fallen off.

Proceed with extreme caution - means just that - slow down - look at the track condition, track obstacles or indeed if your machine is capable of continuing.

I'll PMSL at the day there is an earthquake and the track opens up and swallows people whole!!
'Oh - I thought the yellow flag was 'cause someone else was in trouble.....'

It's all about self ownership!

[Kickaha]

It never ceases to amaze me, that most riders think the yellow flag is always for someone else!
Remember - a yellow flag could be because of you!


Good point, although normally A yellow would be waved to indicate it is something past the flag point displaying the flag

I've always worked out when it was for me as I've been lying on the track with a bike on top of me

[scrivy]

I've always worked out when it was for me as I've been lying on the track with a bike on top of me

Oh, so you go for the other one on top position?.........:laugh:

[ajturbo]

Also not 'having a go'...but...with all the flags and arm waving/pointing etc (at least at our station) what do you suggest we marshalls could have done to make our intentions absolutely clear?
i will now be INCLUDING the 250 riders in my extra riders breif...

unfortunately i ASSUMED that as they were riding in a "faster" (cough) class, that they were more experienced...

AJ was wrong...

but luckily we can sort this out!!!!

[FROSTY]

Sorry you tricycle guys you really are missing the point.
What was needed was a flag that said clearly -GET THE FUCK OFF THE TRACK NOW. -- no not later NOW I'll stand corrected but I think the concequences of oil on the track are a bit less dire for you guys than it is for a solo hitting an oil slick mid corner. Regardless of personal responsibility even at half pace oil is still bad news to hit.
Not only that but the whole furrrore really is about the 45 minutes raceing was stopped for whilst the oil was cleaned up.
I stand behind my origonal suggestion --that being KISS.
Black flag waved at you means STOP and leave the track.

[quickbuck]

Also not 'having a go'...but...with all the flags and arm waving/pointing etc (at least at our station) what do you suggest we marshalls could have done to make our intentions absolutely clear?

Well, actually knowing the rider, I would have tapped 2 fingers of my right hand on my left shoulder, and then tapped my head....... with a fist shake in front of my face.
Again, everybody is going WTF? You military guys are weird.

That signal identifies his rank, and the head tap is "Come Here", and the fist shake is "On the Double".

Truth is we live a life of limited comms and hand signals, so there you go....

Using out hand signals will make an MNZ licence a 3 week course, and 2 years of on the job training, and riders brief will be an hour!!!!
And that is just the Comms section!!!

Of course this all means you have to get the rider to look at you... If they are not looking at marshal posts, at least with peripheral vision, then quite rightly they shouldn't really be out there....

[koba]

i will now be INCLUDING the 250 riders in my extra riders breif...

unfortunately i ASSUMED that as they were riding in a "faster" (cough) class, that they were more experienced...

AJ was wrong...

but luckily we can sort this out!!!!


Make it all for all new riders and go though all the basics of racing.
It may be boring but somthing we clicked to in the weekend was a few of our mates starting off in faster classes didn't really know thier arseholes from their elbows.
We gave them a quick explaination but it is easy to forget how much there is to learn about racing when you have been doing it for a while.
We also need to include things like "The white stuff is to soak up the oil, try to avaoid it if at all possible".
I shit you not.

[scrivy]

Sorry you tricycle guys you really are missing the point.
What was needed was a flag that said clearly -GET THE FUCK OFF THE TRACK NOW. -- no not later NOW I'll stand corrected but I think the concequences of oil on the track are a bit less dire for you guys than it is for a solo hitting an oil slick mid corner. Regardless of personal responsibility even at half pace oil is still bad news to hit.
Not only that but the whole furrrore really is about the 45 minutes raceing was stopped for whilst the oil was cleaned up.
I stand behind my origonal suggestion --that being KISS.
Black flag waved at you means STOP and leave the track.


KISS - I agree totally!! But, who can read a number on a board at over 140km??? Do we need to sit an eye examination prior to being issued MNZ licences?
Also, will other riders slow down to look at the number and be hit from behind??

Yellow: Waved – SLOW DOWN NOW – Proceed with extreme caution. No overtaking until the danger area is passed, be prepared to stop.

BE PREPARED TO STOP..... Says it all already!

[FROSTY]

Actually guys I don't want to stir up a hornets nest here but to my knowledge good ol NZ is the ONLY country where you can literally BUY a day licence with apsolutely NO track experience at all and go out on a superbike and race.
THAT part of the system has concerned me for ages.

[scrivy]

Actually guys I don't want to stir up a hornets nest here but to my knowledge good ol NZ is the ONLY country where you can literally BUY a day licence with apsolutely NO track experience at all and go out on a superbike and race.
THAT part of the system has concerned me for ages.

But the bigger concern for me Frosty, is that you can get 3 stamps in your MNZ logbook by racing on a bucket, then as you say, go straight to a superbike (if you have the money), and race where ever you want!! Scary shit!!
It should be 3 stamps in the class you will race that season maybe?

[FROSTY]

But the bigger concern for me Frosty, is that you can get 3 stamps in your MNZ logbook by racing on a bucket, then as you say, go straight to a superbike (if you have the money), and race where ever you want!! Scary shit!!
It should be 3 stamps in the class you will race that season maybe?
Mate I feel the two are tied in together.

[MSTRS]

What was needed was a flag that said clearly -GET THE FUCK OFF THE TRACK NOW. -- no not later NOW[SIZE=2]....
Black flag waved at you means STOP and leave the track.
Thank fuck for that. That is all I have been saying. In the (mistaken?) belief that a red used as we did, would work.
But the Black doesn't mean Stop and remove yourself now...it simply means Circulate and get off into the pits - someone wants a words.
It would seem the Black/Orange is the flag reqd...along with a number board.



Of course this all means you have to get the rider to look at you... If they are not looking at marshal posts, at least with peripheral vision, then quite rightly they shouldn't really be out there....
Still not having a go, but this guy WAS looking at us...he just didn't understand

KISS - I agree totally!! But, who can read a number on a board at over 140km??? Do we need to sit an eye examination prior to being issued MNZ licences?
Also, will other riders slow down to look at the number and be hit from behind??

Yellow: Waved – SLOW DOWN NOW – Proceed with extreme caution. No overtaking until the danger area is passed, be prepared to stop.

BE PREPARED TO STOP..... Says it ll already!

I'd say that you'd have to be going a great deal more than 140kph to have trouble seeing a number on a board. Esp when your attention is drawn to it by a (suitable) flag.
And I don't agree with your choice of yellow as being right. All the yellow means is slow down, don't pass anyone and watch ahead...something may be on the track. In this sort of case, the 'something on the track' is actually behind the rider and of no immediate consequence to him.

[FROSTY]

Look the way see it is this.
There is an issue there is a potential solution. Lets grab it.
how about this as a VIC CLUB suppplimentary reg for meetings.
BLACK FLAG/black orange flag -(im not hooked on either) -pull off the raceing line NOW slow down NOW. STOP off the track at the next available safe marshal point. Offending bike number displayed at race control/start finish point.
Of course if the guy is dumping oil everywhere then the rest of the feild is going to be seeing waved reds anyway
Goal acheived

This is how I see the conversation going down in marshal land
"T3 to control I think number 20 is leaking oil"
Control to T4 PLease confirm and T3 yellow flag
--T4 to control --Yes its oil
--Ok T5 Black flag - FULL COURSE RED
-Followed by T5 and T6 black flag
You guys laugh maybee but it all happens really fast
Say a 2 minute lap of the minefeild --that means a marshal has 30 seconds to ract and flag the guy in

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re ability to see numbers on a board and flags visibility.
I gotta say Us riders don't do outrselves any favours.
If a flag point or simply a flag isn't visible the roder NEEDS to speak to their riders rep to speak to Race Control to raise it as an issue.

[Skunk]

Look the way see it is this.
There is an issue there is a potential solution. Lets grab it.
< snip >
If a flag point or simply a flag isn't visible the roder NEEDS to speak to their riders rep to speak to Race Control to raise it as an issue.
More like 10-15 secs between some flags points. And the actual bike still needs identifying...
The other point is that we didn't want to stop the race. We just wanted the one bike off the track so we didn't need to stop the race.
In this case nothing was dropped on the track until he was beyond the last flag point before the pits.
He did a full lap knowing there was something wrong with the bike and was not at race pace. This is the point of concern to me. He should have pulled off at a safe point and checked that what he thought it was, was what it was.

Too many riders (and this is a dig at several riders - mainly from my observations - they seem to be the more 'experienced') consider themselves too important to be held up by the rules and common decency.

[scrivy]

But the Black doesn't mean Stop and remove yourself now...it simply means Circulate and get off into the pits - someone wants a words.
It would seem the Black/Orange is the flag reqd...along with a number board.
I suppose it quite well could be.

I'd say that you'd have to be going a great deal more than 140kph to have trouble seeing a number on a board. Esp when your attention is drawn to it by a (suitable) flag.
I could put money on it that alot of people racing do not have impeccable vision. Afterall, its not even a requirement (or even tested) for your MNZ licence. What if you're drafting someone, or alongside them - can you see through them to see a flag? Can you see a number in the pouring rain? And who's going to make a decision on how big the number has to be, or how fat, or what colour, or what font is easy to read? Dont think I'm being pedantic - just realistic. Someone will protest if its not accurate or done to a rule. Even now people say they didn't see a yellow flag. So who's currently looking for a black flag then?
What if the guy in front slows down to look if its his number, and the slipstreamer hits him?


And I don't agree with your choice of yellow as being right. All the yellow means is slow down, don't pass anyone and watch ahead...something may be on the track. In this sort of case, the 'something on the track' is actually behind the rider and of no immediate consequence to him.
That's why I added the extra info of sidecar riders having to look behind also. The reason is not always in front of you.


Look the way see it is this.
There is an issue there is a potential solution. Lets grab it.
how about this as a VIC CLUB suppplimentary reg for meetings.
BLACK FLAG/black orange flag -(im not hooked on either) -pull off the raceing line NOW slow down NOW. STOP off the track at the next available safe marshal point. Offending bike number displayed at race control/start finish point.
Of course if the guy is dumping oil everywhere then the rest of the feild is going to be seeing waved reds anyway
Goal acheived

Try it out Frosty.
Remember, the Vic club is huge. What's gunna happen at smaller meets, with clubs that dont have the resources and the extra flags?
I still believe if an extra line was added to waved yellow flag rule which should read "Look at your machine and behind you also".
Remember, you ain't gunna lose a place in doing so, but you may save all the riders in losing valuable track time. You might also avoid a slipstreamer smashing into the back of you without knowing why!

[MSTRS]

That's why I added the extra info of sidecar riders having to look behind also. The reason is not always in front of you.

Fair enough...to a point. Yet, sidecar pilot would look ahead, see nothing, then look to see if swinger still there, s/he is...pilot would then think 'It's not me. Must be that guy over there' ??

[scrivy]

Fair enough...to a point. Yet, sidecar pilot would look ahead, see nothing, then look to see if swinger still there, s/he is...pilot would then think 'It's not me. Must be that guy over there' ??

Could do, but in reality I always look around (as everyone will attest to....) and I always check behind my machine for that very reason of leaking fluids. (I know my passenger will never fall off - masterbaters wrists....)
Also, you have look at other racers too. If they've seen a problem with your machine, they will be gesturing you to stop also. I have notified others in the past many many a time.

People have to remember the biggest rule is no overtaking under the yellow. SO TAKE YOUR TIME TO MAKE SURE YOU ARE FIT TO CONTINUE - YOU ARE NOT GOING TO LOSE A PLACE IN DOING SO! Going past 2 marshall points under a yellow is better than coasting around the track until pit entry leaking oil!

[MSTRS]

Going past 2 marshall points under a yellow is better than coasting around the track until pit entry leaking oil!

Stopping and getting off track when first realised/told is better still...

[sunhuntin]

i dont know how feasible this is, but would it be possible for riders to rent or buy headsets like the ones used for license tests? then the info for their machine could be given to them without looking for numbers that they maybe cant see for whatever reason. figure if car racing can use them, then motorbikes wouldnt be to big a step. just a thought.

[scrivy]

i dont know how feasible this is, but would it be possible for riders to rent or buy headsets like the ones used for license tests? then the info for their machine could be given to them without looking for numbers that they maybe cant see for whatever reason. figure if car racing can use them, then motorbikes wouldnt be to big a step. just a thought.

But then I couldn't listen to my ipod.......... :lol:

[MSTRS]

But then I couldn't listen to my ipod.......... :lol:

...or your swinger screaming at you...cos he's only holding on by his left bigtoe.

[scrivy]

...or your swinger screaming at you...cos he's only holding on by his left bigtoe.

Nah, he's a hard c@nt!! I know he'll always be there!! As for Kickaha...... well, he screams like a girl anyway.......

[Kickaha]

As for Kickaha...... well, he screams like a girl anyway.......

Only when you touch me wrong:Pokey:

[Deano]

I reckon each marshal point should have as set of road spikes, like the cops use. That'll sort it out.

[MSTRS]

nope...
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129312541&postcount=1

[sunhuntin]

But then I couldn't listen to my ipod.......... :lol:

maybe it could be like the intercom helmets and have ipod over ride for the duration of the info being relayed? :rolleyes:

[ajturbo]

this thread still going... yawn

[quickbuck]

this thread still going... yawn

And you bumped it so I would have a look........
Darn,
But to add... Um, MSTRS as he was indeed looking at you (through his tinted visor) I will make him come to you and say sorry at the next round......

Actually he will NEVER do what he did again, I'm sure. Barry New gave him a briefing of the likes he has never received before..... Mr New could very well hold the role of a Commanding Officer!

I agree with Frosty, and Scrivy... The whole licence thing seems a little easy to me.
Way back when I held one (for Buckets) I thought WAY COOL, now if I win lotto I can race in F1!
I'd be shyte, but I was allowed! Actually 2 things stopped me. Money... and Fear... Fear of looking like shyte, and getting in everybody's way.

18 years later, I'm actually keen...

This is after many years of watching racing on TV and realising what "When the lights go out" means!

Okay, enough.. I'm blogging, and nobody reads my posts anyway ;)

[Skunk]

How come post #142 is missing? - did I miss anything? :laugh:

[roadracingoldfart]

We just wanted the one bike off the track so we didn't need to stop the race.
In this case nothing was dropped on the track until he was beyond the last flag point before the pits.
He did a full lap knowing there was something wrong with the bike and was not at race pace. This is the point of concern to me. He should have pulled off at a safe point and checked that what he thought it was, was what it was.

Too many riders (and this is a dig at several riders - mainly from my observations - they seem to be the more 'experienced') consider themselves too important to be held up by the rules and common decency.


So if i read this post correctly:( , the attempt to stop the bike was done by flag marshal points for a couple of corners and yet when the bike continued and actually went past the pit wall (where the correct flag is available ) now obviously (apparantly) dropping oil and he was NOT shown the correct flag under instructions from the MNZ steward who is in touch with all the marshalls and was the instigator of the attempt to originally stop the said bike.

Isnt that a funny situation.--------------- no , thats a fuck up , but lets BBQ the poor bastard anyhow.

Whats more to the point with this post AJ is , the differance between common decency and the actual rules is a grand canyon .
If you witness a safety violation of the rules (thats what the rules are for ) then as an official you are obligated to address them immediatly.

Paul.

[roadracingoldfart]

Well, actually knowing the rider, I would have tapped 2 fingers of my right hand on my left shoulder, and then tapped my head....... with a fist shake in front of my face.
Again, everybody is going WTF? You military guys are weird.

That signal identifies his rank, and the head tap is "Come Here", and the fist shake is "On the Double".






You bloody Navy pricks are all hand waving gays anyhow , no wonder you all understand each other :buggerd::dodge:

[Skunk]

So if i read this post correctly:( , the attempt to stop the bike was done by flag marshal points for a couple of corners and yet when the bike continued and actually went past the pit wall (where the correct flag is available )
No, not quite. Flag 1, 2 or 3 saw it first I think, Flag 6 is where MSTRS was (last one before the pits). He then pulled into the pits - didn't go round to the Chief Marshalls point.

I am not BBQing him. He broke a rule and that's it. What can we reasonably do is the question.

[scrivy]

Only when you touch me wrong:Pokey:

Define wrong............................. :pinch::whistle::crazy:;):wacko:

[scrivy]

I agree with Frosty, and Scrivy... The whole licence thing seems a little easy to me.
Okay, enough.. I'm blogging, and nobody reads my posts anyway ;)

I do mate.......................:whistle:

[MSTRS]

So if i read this post correctly:( , the attempt to stop the bike was done by flag marshal points for a couple of corners and yet when the bike continued and actually went past the pit wall (where the correct flag is available ) now obviously (apparantly) dropping oil and he was NOT shown the correct flag under instructions from the MNZ steward who is in touch with all the marshalls and was the instigator of the attempt to originally stop the said bike.




No, not quite. Flag 1, 2 or 3 saw it first I think, Flag 6 is where MSTRS was (last one before the pits). He then pulled into the pits - didn't go round to the Chief Marshalls point.

We were the 6th flag...but position is known as point 7. Point 6 is only used with the track extension. We saw him go past, smoke coming from behind his fairing. He was obviously unaware of this and continued racing. He passed start/finish line and Point 1 reported he was losing fluids. The calls for marshalls to get him off the track started then. By the time he reached Point 7 again, he was by himself on the track, probably doing less then 60kph. Now he crosses the track to the outside, and continues on to exit at the pitlane.


What can we reasonably do is the question.
And we still don't have a realistic answer...

[Skunk]

I wasn't aware he had the issue before start/finish... Bugger.

That's a fail. How much time was there to get the number of the bike, get the numbers on the board, grab the black/orange flag and display it all? Probably not enough; 15-20 seconds?

We need to do something. The system is too cumbersome.

[yungatart]

Paintball guns?
We could use them on the birds/ducks on the track too?

[Deano]

Now in a demolition derby, they'd just send out a stock car to ram the farker off the track. (Sorry that's not very constructive)

[Kickaha]

Paintball guns?
We could use them on the birds/ducks on the track too?

Tasers, the police need practice

[roadracingoldfart]

And we still don't have a realistic answer...



Ohhh but we do have an answer, The correct flag colour shown and the riders all knowing what it means. The wheel dosnt have to be re-invented at all , the solution is already there in front of us.
The chance of a similar event is very high as engines do sometimes shit themselves and for no apparent reason and in no defined time frame. It does take time to clean up and it is a pain but its just part of motorsport.
Who is old enough to remember the reason we stopped attending combined car / bike meetings ??? , theres the reason.
Even if we follow some countries regulations and have a catch section in the lower of our fairings then thats fine but this event was a top end spew so there is no way to contain that unless its a sealed engine unit .

[MSTRS]

Ohhh but we do have an answer, The correct flag colour shown and the riders all knowing what it means.

So...a black/orange flag and number board at every marshal station?

[roadracingoldfart]

So...a black/orange flag and number board at every marshal station?


NO ..... that would be dangerous as most marshall stations are in a safe zone and not directly at the side of the course, a marshall should not have to leave the safety of the station to inform a rider of anything but a flag at each station and a board at the pit wall as well as the flag is what i would recommend (as the rules state now) but a heads up (flag shown) of an issue to an individual or group of riders would be a good idea.
The rules are presently set up to show a board at the pit wall (chief marshall point) so why is it up to anyone other than MNZ to alter/ adapt that part of the rule.
The extra notification from marshall points may just confirm to a rider that they have a problem , EG ; foot falling off a peg issue through the infield , then seeing the correct flag at a station when said racer goes past may ensure a more serious look at that footpeg from the rider ohh cock , oil on the peg...... I will pull over now that flags for me. Either way the next time past the pit wall the riders number will be displayed and hopefully correct action taken by the rider.

There is no set in concrete answer or solution to any problem that occurs but as in the red flag rule a few years ago a simple allowance to show a red from multiple stations has im sure saved lives and incidents from happening.
If a comprimise has to occur to allow a safer race meeting then im all for it but only if it is easy enough to instigate and is clearly understood by the racers and marshalls.
If MNZ got off its ass and made it a standing rule if it works out
(why wouldnt it ) i would also see that as a foreward move. But to leave it to individual clubs is not what should happen.

[Skunk]

Why has this turned into a focus on the flag?

He was not a race pace so should have pulled off the track as soon as safe to do so and stayed there until the issue was fixed or recovery picked him up. We are talking about a life and death situation here.

Bugger the oil - that can be cleaned up. If you can't do race pace, for any reason, get off the track - now.

This is clearly Rule 22-1-1

[roadracingoldfart]

Why has this turned into a focus on the flag?

He was not a race pace so should have pulled off the track as soon as safe to do so and stayed there until the issue was fixed or recovery picked him up. We are talking about a life and death situation here.

Bugger the oil - that can be cleaned up. If you can't do race pace, for any reason, get off the track - now.

This is clearly Rule 22-1-1



Hmmm difficult call Skunk .
22-1-1 If during practice or racing a competitors machine malfunctions or becomes disabled for any reason and the competitor is unable to continue racing s/he must hold their line until it is safe to move as quickly and as safely as possible from the track. The machine must be parked as far from the track as practical and the rider should move to the safest available
position.


As for the "why has it turned into a focus on the flag " issue Ummm it always was , thats why the thread is titled what it is !!!!.

[Skunk]

As for the "why has it turned into a focus on the flag " issue Ummm it always was , thats why the thread is titled what it is !!!!.
I know... just taking the piss mate.

And I don't see it as a difficult call: if you're not at race pace - park it.
Ask yourself:
1/ Am I racing or
2/ Am I going slower because something's wrong?

If it's 2 then park it and sort it. Is it safe to continue? It's only yes if you're going to continue racing.

Anything else and you're putting safety at risk.

[MSTRS]

And I don't see it as a difficult call: if you're not at race pace - park it.
Ask yourself:
1/ Am I racing or
2/ Am I going slower because something's wrong?

If it's 2 then park it and sort it. Is it safe to continue? It's only yes if you're going to continue racing.

Anything else and you're putting safety at risk.

Don't agree with that. Many are the times that a bike will have a 'momentary' issue like a fouled plug that clears . Or whatever. As long as a slow/er bike is not impeding racing, let them continue. If they do not exit at pit or slip-lane, or are 'all over' the track, then that's another matter.
However, if the powers-that-be in the tower decide to pull a bike off the track, and black/orange flags are not to be issued to marshal points, then I ask AGAIN...HOW????

[Billy]

Don't agree with that. Many are the times that a bike will have a 'momentary' issue like a fouled plug that clears . Or whatever. As long as a slow/er bike is not impeding racing, let them continue. If they do not exit at pit or slip-lane, or are 'all over' the track, then that's another matter.


Agree,Whole heartedly with this statement,I have a sneaky suspicion this rule was imposed on us as a kneejerk reaction too the Derek Hill/Phillip Harrison tragedy that took place at Pukekohe.However if its in the rulebook it MUST be adhered to.I have outlined breifly in an email too the Victoria club a small amount of my thoughts regarding the above incident and I personally dont see it as completely rider error.I have made My thoughts clear too Jim Tuckerman regarding a number of rules that have been imposed on as kneejerk reactions rather than sensible consideration and analysis by the powers that be.Some of which add to the stresses of trying to get through a race program for club officials and in my opinion add other safety issues we never had to deal with before.However,I dont see completely as an administration problem either,There is a certain amount of blame that lies squarely at the competitors feet.IE a complete lack of knowledge regarding the rules for 1.As a competitor you are obliged too read and understand fully the rules pertaining to your particular section of the sport.MOTOR RACING IS DANGEROUS,FACT and the dangers are only increased when patricipants dont know how or when they are expected too do what!!!Secondly,What happened to good old common sense??I have had occasion over the last 12 months too repair engines for people that had blown.On each occasion it was obvious too me when I pulled the engine down it had clearly been ridden at full throttle until it had come too a complete standstill,Creating a huge amount of unnecessary damage to the engine and unnecessary risk to the offending rider and other competitors and officials.If your machine suffers a significant loss of power then clearly something major has occured and the motorsport pixies are not going too dive in and fix it while you continue on trying too ride it,You should immediately pull the clutch in and as soon as is completely safe put your hand up too signal to other competitors you have a problem and remove yourself and machine immediately from the circuit until the race/practice is finished.READING and Understanding the rulebook before going racing is a must.If you havent already read it,Do it now!!!

[Tony.OK]

Don't agree with that. Many are the times that a bike will have a 'momentary' issue like a fouled plug that clears . Or whatever. As long as a slow/er bike is not impeding racing, let them continue. If they do not exit at pit or slip-lane, or are 'all over' the track, then that's another matter.
However, if the powers-that-be in the tower decide to pull a bike off the track, and black/orange flags are not to be issued to marshal points, then I ask AGAIN...HOW????

If "they" don't want to issue flags for you guys, then expect you to make up the rules yourself then the question seriously needs to be asked of the "powers that be".
There has been offers made to cover costs, solutions for # boards given................................only the officials can decide what they want mate, the rules are there, if its down to cost well thats just something that needs sorting imho.

[MSTRS]

If "they" don't want to issue flags for you guys, then expect you to make up the rules yourself then the question seriously needs to be asked of the "powers that be".
There has been offers made to cover costs, solutions for # boards given................................only the officials can decide what they want mate, the rules are there, if its down to cost well thats just something that needs sorting imho.

No mate, we didn't 'make up' anything...the PTB told us to use the red with suitable gestures. It didn't work. It's not entirely obvious what would have worked, or whether we actually need something that does. The incident was a very rare one, after all.
It does seem obvious that Vic Club, at least, has no wish to see black flags of any sort issued to marshals. It's not down to cost, but rather a control-thing through MNZ rules.
The issue of how to flag a rider off the track continues...

[Tony.OK]

It does seem obvious that Vic Club, at least, has no wish to see black flags of any sort issued to marshals. It's not down to cost, but rather a control-thing through MNZ rules.
The issue of how to flag a rider off the track continues...

The rules I've read say nothing about marshal points not being allowed black or blk/orange flags. They do say a # board is to be used with them, but I'm sure if people are told in briefing that these flags are going to be used and if you see a marshall with one pointing at you then you MUST retire immediately.

Really depends how close to the letter you want to use the rules. As it was the rules were embelished for this particular incident.

[Skunk]

It does seem obvious that Vic Club, at least, has no wish to see black flags of any sort issued to marshals. It's not down to cost, but rather a control-thing through MNZ rules.
The issue of how to flag a rider off the track continues...
It's not that either MSTRS. We'd just like the riders to read and understand the rule book. He should have stopped as soon as he thought he had a problem. If he had there would be no call for a Black/Orange flag.
If the riders don't know Rule 22-1-1 then I doubt they would know what a Black/Orange flag means anyway.
I've been asked what the Red/Orange flag means by several riders and it's use is far more common.
The issue isn't one of having the flags - it's one of the riders knowing what they mean.
Secondary is the flag points having the flags. I think the Vic Club will review this, but it's not the solution if the rider doesn't know it's meaning and isn't following another rule anyway.

Hoping this doesn't happen again is not the answer either and I'm not sticking my head in the sand about it. My belief is that the FIRST THING to be sorted is riders knowing the rules. Then sort the rest.

Experienced marshals such as yourself are a godsend to the running of the meetings and we need more.

[MSTRS]

The rules I've read say nothing about marshal points not being allowed black or blk/orange flags. They do say a # board is to be used with them, but I'm sure if people are told in briefing that these flags are going to be used and if you see a marshall with one pointing at you then you MUST retire immediately.



Now now...you are just being sensible. Can't have that...
Perhaps marshals could be empowered to put the pole (correct colour flag on it, of course) through the spokes of the offending bike...

[Tony.OK]

Now now...you are just being sensible. Can't have that...
Perhaps marshals could be empowered to put the pole (correct colour flag on it, of course) through the spokes of the offending bike...

You watched Mythbusters too huh? :laugh:


At the end of the day there will always be a situation that arises where theres no answer............thats life innit.

Maybe the licencing does need looking at, hell even if there was an online test of some sort, then at least people would have to look up an answer they don't know....................oops I'm being sensible again:innocent:

[MSTRS]

If the riders don't know Rule 22-1-1 then I doubt they would know what a Black/Orange flag means anyway.
True, that...


Experienced marshals such as yourself are a godsend to the running of the meetings and we need more.Aw shucks...:o


At the end of the day there will always be a situation that arises where theres no answer............thats life innit.


And I'm beginning to think that this was the situation on the 25th

[quickbuck]

And I'm beginning to think that this was the situation on the 25th

Most likely....
The good news is, many more people know what happened now, and everybody can take a look at the situation and learn from it.

The rider that sparked this whole chain of events will not be making the same mistake again... and others who have read this thread will change things.. or be more aware.

There will always be those sh1t happens occasions though....
As said, that's life.

[Racey Rider]

Black with Orange Centre: Road Race Only: Machine to be removed from the circuit immediately. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the flag is displayed.

So did the MNZ Steward at Vic R5 Make a mistake at riders briefing, in saying when we get a black/orange spot flag with our number, we should circulate slowly around to the pit entrance and get off the track there?

If so, Ok... no worries... we all make mistakes.

But what was disturbing, was that nobody backed me up when I asked the question in front of everyone - " So when we pass a black/orange spot flag for our number at the start finish line - we then can go right round the track, dropping oil all the way, to get back to the pit entrance? "

He replied with a mumble that basicly said Yes.

Did No one else feel he was getting it wrong??

Even Mel (Club presdent) had a puzzled look on his face.

SO if the Steward makes a wrong call - do we all just accept it?

Or is that not how it went down?

Racey

[ajturbo]

good point there Racey..

I will be telling all SS racers, if shown the black and orange... GET OFF THE TRACK ASAP SAFELY...

[Skunk]

So did the MNZ Steward at Vic R5 Make a mistake at riders briefing, in saying when we get a black/orange spot flag with our number, we should circulate slowly around to the pit entrance and get off the track there?
I can't answer that as I wasn't at the riders briefing - but if that is what he said he is reading a different rule book to me.

[roadracingoldfart]

Black with Orange Centre: Road Race Only: Machine to be removed from the circuit immediately. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the flag is displayed.

So did the MNZ Steward at Vic R5 Make a mistake at riders briefing, in saying when we get a black/orange spot flag with our number, we should circulate slowly around to the pit entrance and get off the track there?

If so, Ok... no worries... we all make mistakes.

But what was disturbing, was that nobody backed me up when I asked the question in front of everyone - " So when we pass a black/orange spot flag for our number at the start finish line - we then can go right round the track, dropping oil all the way, to get back to the pit entrance? "

He replied with a mumble that basicly said Yes.

Did No one else feel he was getting it wrong??

Even Mel (Club presdent) had a puzzled look on his face.

SO if the Steward makes a wrong call - do we all just accept it?

Or is that not how it went down?

Racey


Thats because there is no such thing as a safe place to pull of a track during a race . IMO

The "park it rule" spoken of is the second most dangerous piece of shit a rule book could quote.

[roadracingoldfart]

good point there Racey..

I will be telling all SS racers, if shown the black and orange... GET OFF THE TRACK ASAP SAFELY...


How will a new rider be able to make a call as to where a safe place is ? .

[ajturbo]

what's the first?...
when the ights go out.. you go?....:done:l:innocent:

[ajturbo]

How will a new rider be able to make a call as to where a safe place is ? .
that's a good call... that's why i talk to them at their own riders brief, just for that sort of thing.....

i also instruct them to put their hand up as soon as they notice something is wrong with their bike (or leg out)....

each race meet they/we learn more.. i love it!!!:Punk:

[Skunk]

Thats because there is no such thing as a safe place to pull of a track during a race . IMO

The "park it rule" spoken of is the second most dangerous piece of shit a rule book could quote.
It's not a crock of shit. There are plenty of safe places to pull off. That's why Red flags aren't put out every time a bike crashes or stops on the circuit - because they are in a safe place.
Do you really think it's safer to leave a trail of oil (or whatever) around the track on the racing line than pulling off? Might be safe for you but what about all the other poor riders?

How will a new rider be able to make a call as to where a safe place is ? .By using their brains. Some people can manage it still I believe. :laugh: Ask yourself: Can I get hit by a crashing bike here? Yes - not safe. No - safe.

[roadracingoldfart]

that's a good call... that's why i talk to them at their own riders brief, just for that sort of thing.....

i also instruct them to put their hand up as soon as they notice something is wrong with their bike (or leg out)....

each race meet they/we learn more.. i love it!!!:Punk:

I know you do assist alot and my head dips in your direction , i still have fears of bikes pulling off the track in a place they are not expected to by following riders.
I have seen a bike pull over in an incident only to fall on the grass and sending the bike back onto the track and taking a fellow rider out in a very big way.
there is no real answer i appreciate, but limitation of possibles is the key .

Paul.

[roadracingoldfart]

what's the first?...
when the ights go out.. you go?....:done:l:innocent:


No ,
#1 = the giddy dipshits that make the rules and take your money.

[roadracingoldfart]

There are plenty of safe
By using their brains. Some people can manage it still I believe. :laugh: Ask yourself: Can I get hit by a crashing bike here? Yes - not safe. No - safe.


Your assuming a multi tasking ability exists in an unexpected panic situation.
Some people cant pick their nose witout closing thier eyes as well but we dont all do that do we !!!

[MSTRS]

How will a new rider be able to make a call as to where a safe place is ? .

That's where the marshals come in. To direct, make radio calls, etc

[scracha]

I have seen a bike pull over in an incident only to fall on the grass and sending the bike back onto the track and taking a fellow rider out in a very big way.
there is no real answer i appreciate, but limitation of possibles is the key .

Was he retarded or something? I mean...did he see the black flag and ride on the grass at 200kmph? A safe place is miles off the racing line, away from corner exits and preferably behind a big tyre wall or summit.

Greyer area is whether to pick your bike up after a crash when the yellow flaggies are out.

Retards shouldn't race...end of.

[roadracingoldfart]

Was he retarded or something? I mean...did he see the black flag and ride on the grass at 200kmph? A safe place is miles off the racing line, away from corner exits and preferably behind a big tyre wall or summit.

Greyer area is whether to pick your bike up after a crash when the yellow flaggies are out.

Retards shouldn't race...end of.


Noooo .
Its quite simple really , the rider (who later became a Nat class champ for the second time) pulled off the track at a medium pace , aware he had a machine problem but didnt know what it was (this was pre flag warning days).
He then had brake malfunction on the grass (which was a bit damp) and then collected me after going across the infield grass riderless (he was flicked off the bike).
I know the chances of it re-occuring are remote but it is still possible.
If i wasnt in the way the bike had the potential to reach the back straight so i saved a high speed crash i guess.

Sometimes an issue with the bike is unknown so when a flag is presented and then you pull off the track you may create a further issue worse than the original.
If this rider had been on the blacktop when his brakes malfunctioned he would have been able to control the bike , without question.

He was far from a retard as his credentials attest to.
2 times NZ champ and if memory serves correct, in 3 classes.

Paul.

[scracha]

If this rider had been on the blacktop when his brakes malfunctioned he would have been able to control the bike , without question.


Could've, sould've, would've. As you've said, slim odds of that particular event happening again. You're also assuming it would have been ok had he been on the black stuff. Suppose he'd been up another rider's chuff or found out his brakes were malfunctioning going into a hairpin or suppose his brakes suddenly locked up on a long fast sweeper?

It's surely a numbers game and the numbers would normally say, get the fucked bike off the track ASAP.

[Skunk]

Could've, sould've, would've. As you've said, slim odds of that particular event happening again. You're also assuming it would have been ok had he been on the black stuff. Suppose he'd been up another rider's chuff or found out his brakes were malfunctioning going into a hairpin or suppose his brakes suddenly locked up on a long fast sweeper?

It's surely a numbers game and the numbers would normally say, get the fucked bike off the track ASAP.
Exactly! Bling for you!

As you say - the numbers game says this is the safe option.

[FROSTY]

Skunk Theres a phrase comes to mind--Theres nothing new under the sun. I'm trying very very hard here not to do the whole I know better than you because Ive been around racetracks for x million years bit mainly because it pisses people off.
BUT I would suggest strongly that you sit back and listen to what people like Billy,roadraceingoldfart,codgyoldracer and others have to say. These guys have been involved in the sport for a very long time and have seen what happens when it goes to shit.
I'd also suggest that we in New Zealand have a horrible habit o reinventing the wheel. Have a look at what works at say donnington,laguana seca or even as close as sydney and see what system has been developed. There is a commonality of rules/flags.

Again I genuinely believe that your perfect "test dummies" should be 10 year old boys at an indoor go cart track.
Fill the litle buggers up with cokeacola and send em out karting. See what flags they see and understand.

[Tony.OK]

Whatever you decide...................please please don't introduce a safety car:lol:


I watched what happened with the new rules in the AMA at Laguna Seca, now that WAS dangerous!!

[Skunk]

Skunk Theres a phrase comes to mind--Theres nothing new under the sun. I'm trying very very hard here not to do the whole I know better than you because Ive been around racetracks for x million years bit mainly because it pisses people off.
BUT I would suggest strongly that you sit back and listen to what people like Billy,roadraceingoldfart,codgyoldracer and others have to say. These guys have been involved in the sport for a very long time and have seen what happens when it goes to shit.
I'd also suggest that we in New Zealand have a horrible habit o reinventing the wheel. Have a look at what works at say donnington,laguana seca or even as close as sydney and see what system has been developed. There is a commonality of rules/flags.

Again I genuinely believe that your perfect "test dummies" should be 10 year old boys at an indoor go cart track.
Fill the litle buggers up with cokeacola and send em out karting. See what flags they see and understand.
So you're saying it's better to have oil on the track rather than a bike parked against the tyres? I really don't understand that logic.
We had (so far this season), I think, 7 crashes due to oil on the track and none from bikes pulling off. But oil is still safer?
Please explain your logic. Tell me how MNZ is so wrong to have a black flag for 'naughty boys' (go to the pits) and black/orange flag (your bike is a danger to you or others - stop now)...
Seriously - I can't see it.

You are supposed to know the flags. That is a worldwide commonality. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel - I'm trying to get the riders to understand the existing rules. People have died in recent years here in NZ because the riders don't know the rules or think they know better.

[FROSTY]

So you're saying it's better to have oil on the track rather than a bike parked against the tyres? I really don't understand that logic.
.
where did I say that??

[Kickaha]

I think, 7 crashes due to oil on the track .

I blame the Sidecars

[Skunk]

where did I say that??
That's what I read from the response of yours I quoted. I don't understand that logic so I'll like to get it straight.

Skunk Theres a phrase comes to mind--Theres nothing new under the sun. I'm trying very very hard here not to do the whole I know better than you because Ive been around racetracks for x million years bit mainly because it pisses people off.
BUT I would suggest strongly that you sit back and listen to what people like Billy,roadraceingoldfart,codgyoldracer and others have to say. These guys have been involved in the sport for a very long time and have seen what happens when it goes to shit.
I'd also suggest that we in New Zealand have a horrible habit o reinventing the wheel. Have a look at what works at say donnington,laguana seca or even as close as sydney and see what system has been developed. There is a commonality of rules/flags.I read from that that I'm trying to invent something new (I'm not) or that bikes not at race pace or with problems should be sent to the pits not off the track (racingoldfart's post) and anything else is wrong (from you telling me to listen to you, racingoldfart and billy).

I thought was that this can't be right - and so I requested that you clear up what you are saying (because that advice sounds pretty dumb to me; so you must mean something else. Maybe you just quoted the wrong thing in your initial reply - I don't know...

[Billy]

People have died in recent years here in NZ because the riders don't know the rules or think they know better.

Brave statement!!What do you base that on ???

[FROSTY]

That's what I read from the response of yours I quoted. I don't understand that logic so I'll like to get it straight.
I read from that that I'm trying to invent something new (I'm not) or that bikes not at race pace or with problems should be sent to the pits not off the track (racingoldfart's post) and anything else is wrong (from you telling me to listen to you, racingoldfart and billy).

I thought was that this can't be right - and so I requested that you clear up what you are saying (because that advice sounds pretty dumb to me; so you must mean something else. Maybe you just quoted the wrong thing in your initial reply - I don't know...
Id suspect that the guys you refer to can give valid reasons for their arguments based on their experiences and the things they have seen in the past.
Think about it -would they argue with sutch passion if they diddn't feel they were right and more importantly that what they feel is true is the safest option?
Maybee they are wrong. But concider the combined years of experience they have before assuming they are.
I must say that in my opinion the current rule book has become seriously complicated and needs an application of the KISS principle.

[Skunk]

Brave statement!!What do you base that on ???A well known WMCC ex prez is one. Under MNZ rules the other bike involved would have parked off the track - not been trying to make it to the pits.


Maybee they are wrong. But concider the combined years of experience they have before assuming they are.
I must say that in my opinion the current rule book has become seriously complicated and needs an application of the KISS principle.I haven't "assumed" they are wrong. I just completely fail to see how a bike leaking oil, having parts falling off or moving much slower than all the others is safe for all concerned - rather than pulling off the track "as soon as it is safe to do so".

I'm now getting a little pissed at repeatedly being told "I've been around longer so I know must better" with nothing to back it up. I've asked for clarification and you've just told me they have been around longer. I don't care. I care about the racers safety. I don't what some numbnuts-old-fart-I've-been-doing-this-for-years doing whatever he pleases when he's putting other people at risk.

Billy has had several goes at me for not following the MNZ rulebook to the letter, now you're telling me I shouldn't and it's complex.

FFS.

[roadracingoldfart]

A well known WMCC ex prez is one. Under MNZ rules the other bike involved would have parked off the track - not been trying to make it to the pits.

I haven't "assumed" they are wrong. I just completely fail to see how a bike leaking oil, having parts falling off or moving much slower than all the others is safe for all concerned - rather than pulling off the track "as soon as it is safe to do so".

I'm now getting a little pissed at repeatedly being told "I've been around longer so I know must better" with nothing to back it up. I've asked for clarification and you've just told me they have been around longer. I don't care. I care about the racers safety. I don't what some numbnuts-old-fart-I've-been-doing-this-for-years doing whatever he pleases when he's putting other people at risk.

Billy has had several goes at me for not following the MNZ rulebook to the letter, now you're telling me I shouldn't and it's complex.

FFS.

If your referring to the numbnuts as a referance to me young man , i would cease and desist very fast.
Whille i am at it and you seem a bit rattled , heres what i think.
You burst onto the scene from some hole in the ground , make alot of noise and piss alot of people off to no end.
Your a tree climbing monkey in a de-forrestation zone buddy and i dont see a future for noisy , unqualified oxygen wasters like yourself in this scene.
Try to fit a mouthgaurd for a change and keep your antics to the board room . I dont like (and nore do many i know) liars and blam shifters so shussh up for a change.
By the way , im on the ferry tomorrow morn so i wont see your tirade for 2 weeks , but im sure it will be here to read when i get home.

PS; i have enough friends so i will get over it .

Ahhhh thats better.

Paul.

[Billy]

A well known WMCC ex prez is one. Under MNZ rules the other bike involved would have parked off the track - not been trying to make it to the pits.


If that rule was current at the time,Then yes you would be correct,I have a sneaking suspicion that rule was included as a result of that incident,However I could be wrong about that.It also could have been avoided if there had been a flaggie in the kink,But the officials thought they knew better.It also could possibly have been avoided if the abovementioned rider had been forced to read the rulebook so he could answer a 25 question test before he was granted a licence

[Skunk]

If your referring to the numbnuts as a referance to me young man , i would cease and desist very fast.
Whille i am at it and you seem a bit rattled , heres what i think.
You burst onto the scene from some hole in the ground , make alot of noise and piss alot of people off to no end.
Your a tree climbing monkey in a de-forrestation zone buddy and i dont see a future for noisy , unqualified oxygen wasters like yourself in this scene.
Try to fit a mouthgaurd for a change and keep your antics to the board room . I dont like (and nore do many i know) liars and blam shifters so shussh up for a change.
By the way , im on the ferry tomorrow morn so i wont see your tirade for 2 weeks , but im sure it will be here to read when i get home.

PS; i have enough friends so i will get over it .

Ahhhh thats better.

Paul.Nice Paul. That's helps me understand where you, Frosty, Billy and others are coming from immensely. Not.
You may note that I have asked for a calcification of what you are saying a few times now. I guess it's just you need to show everyone you are superior in every way because you're older and been racing for years. Why do you think I'm still asking YOU for a clarification of what you are saying? Well, because you're older and been racing for years. Instead you resort to personal insults and tell me to get away from organising racing. Thanks for your reply. And by the way - No, I was not referring to you at all - why did you even think that? I was referring to people who don't even bother to find out what ANY of the rules are - not even the yellow/red flag. The ones who don't check they have any brake pads left. The ones who think that the race meeting is all about them. They are the danger to the other riders. Not you. Not Billy. Not Frosty. Not most of the riders. Just the ones who think that buying a race licence means they are ready to race. That scares me a little. I want to make a better somehow. It appears you want me to fuck off, rather then help me or change things for better.

I'll repeat the original question to see if anyone can tell me (because I haven't been on the racing scene long and I don't understand this issue apart from what I have seen).

Are you saying that a bike leaking oil or losing parts is safer going round the track than pulling off the track as soon as it is safe to do so? If so why? Why is that so hard to answer?

PS I know you have friends: you're a well respected rider and now helping others. Help me - don't insult me.

[Skunk]

If that rule was current at the time,Then yes you would be correct,I have a sneaking suspicion that rule was included as a result of that incident,However I could be wrong about that.It also could have been avoided if there had been a flaggie in the kink,But the officials thought they knew better.It also could possibly have been avoided if the abovementioned rider had been forced to read the rulebook so he could answer a 25 question test before he was granted a licence
Thanks Billy. I think the rule was there before the incident. I don't know Puke well enough to comment on the flaggie point - I guess they never had one so why change? And that is where I'm coming from - what can be done to make things better? My lack of experience makes me see things differently to experienced eyes. I don't want to be an official who thinks he knows better, I actually want to know better. When I see something that doesn't make sense I ask why? I know that pisses people off but tough. How else can the better be achieved?

I would like to see a test before the licenses are issued and I think this should be done by the clubs or by MNZ.
One way: you apply for a license. You get a question sheet from MNZ and have to answer general race conduct and track rules. Mail it back and receive your license (or not). That would mean that they have to at least open the rule book.
The other way I see is the question sheet held by the club and the test to be supervised by a club official. A bit harder with clubs like ours - members everywhere.

[MSTRS]

I'll repeat the original question to see if anyone can tell me (because I haven't been on the racing scene long and I don't understand this issue apart from what I have seen).

Are you saying that a bike leaking oil or losing parts is safer going round the track than pulling off the track as soon as it is safe to do so? If so why? Why is that so hard to answer?


And I started this thread to find out if there was a flag (or alternate use of existing flag) to achieve getting a bike off the track now. Where it is. No further circulation.
No - there isn't (except at the Start/Finish line), and no will to introduce at other points. So the assumption has to be made that it is considered safe for a fluid/parts shedding bike to do so - AT LEAST UNTIL SOMEONE DIES as a result of allowing said circulation.
Frustrating, isn't it?

[roadracingoldfart]

Nice Paul. That's helps me understand where you, Frosty, Billy and others are coming from immensely. Not.
You may note that I have asked for a calcification of what you are saying a few times now. I guess it's just you need to show everyone you are superior in every way because you're older and been racing for years. Why do you think I'm still asking YOU for a clarification of what you are saying? Well, because you're older and been racing for years. Instead you resort to personal insults and tell me to get away from organising racing. Thanks for your reply. And by the way - No, I was not referring to you at all - why did you even think that? I was referring to people who don't even bother to find out what ANY of the rules are - not even the yellow/red flag. The ones who don't check they have any brake pads left. The ones who think that the race meeting is all about them. They are the danger to the other riders. Not you. Not Billy. Not Frosty. Not most of the riders. Just the ones who think that buying a race licence means they are ready to race. That scares me a little. I want to make a better somehow. It appears you want me to fuck off, rather then help me or change things for better.

I'll repeat the original question to see if anyone can tell me (because I haven't been on the racing scene long and I don't understand this issue apart from what I have seen).

Are you saying that a bike leaking oil or losing parts is safer going round the track than pulling off the track as soon as it is safe to do so? If so why? Why is that so hard to answer?

PS I know you have friends: you're a well respected rider and now helping others. Help me - don't insult me.


First off , I don’t pretend to talk for Frosty or Billy and reading my post I don’t see any sign of doing so. I speak for myself unless I am asked to represent or have a mandate given to me by the team I am involved with.
I did not tell you to remove yourself from the organising of racing , I will
However suggest a different approach to the way you talk to people if you want to be heard and seen as proactive.

I am far from superior to anyone and don’t pretend to be apart from what I do holding a set of handlebars, I am not a wanker , im a bastard and you can clarify that with my mum.
If past experience counts as knowledge then yes I have some , if you ask me if I believe that makes me better I doubt it , that’s ignorance.

When you race for the amount of time I have there are some clear alterations to the rules that come and go along the way , the entire change from ACU to MNZ was just an example of ruling changes which altered classes and the majority of the rule structure. These alterations sometimes work and sometimes don’t so amendments
are called for but not always to a satisfactory result (read hash job) .
I personally class the “park it rule “ in this category.
Red flags were only allowed to be shown at the start / finish line before a nasty incident I was involved in a few years ago , that rule was altered but I wonder, if there was not such a serious result in that crash if the rule would have been changed outside the public eye with police etc having input. I lobbied hard to have that flag crap sorted before and after the incident and am happy to see it changed , thanks Paul Stewart, good work mate.

Your alluding to the ignorance of the rule book is such a historical concern I or you can never alter that situation so don’t get bitter and twisted about it . While its so easy to get a comp licence there will never be a change and only MNZ can alter that stupid scenario. Even the MNZ stewards don’t know the rule book and have been responsible for huge cock ups involving safety and fairness. I wont go into specifics as I don’t think they are relevant here in this discussion.

You want me to clarify if I think a bike is better to circulate with damage/ problems or to park it , I personally believe the situation cant be answered in a general fashion but I have given a few eg; in my previous posts as to why I feel this way.
As with any issue some have a propensity to vote pro and some anti . I vote to cover the logical. Not all situations are the same so a blanket rule is hard to clarify
EG; if a bike has an issue between turn 1 and the esses at Manfeild I would hate to see that bike park up on the inside or outside of the esses, carry on to the slip road before the hairpin and I would congratulate that rider for being proactive. It scares me when I see a rider that crashes in the esses and just stands holding their bike where it stopped while there is still racing and the chance of a bike hitting a stranded rider is increased considering the same type of crash normally deposit’s a bike in the same place as the stranded rider from the first crash, I have seen it and its devastating. A parked up bike is a target for a crashing bike in some situations , don’t park there and the chance of being hit is nil.
Your reference to an accident at Puke is from what I understand due to a rider trying to reach the side of the track to “park it “, am I correct ?? .

PS; now I have found out its only Sunday I don’t get the boat till tomorrow morning so I now have time to sleep a bit .

Paul.

[FROSTY]

And I started this thread to find out if there was a flag (or alternate use of existing flag) to achieve getting a bike off the track now. Where it is. No further circulation.
No - there isn't (except at the Start/Finish line), and no will to introduce at other points. So the assumption has to be made that it is considered safe for a fluid/parts shedding bike to do so - AT LEAST UNTIL SOMEONE DIES as a result of allowing said circulation.
Frustrating, isn't it?
Mate in a nutshell I believe that CORRECT use and availability of the EXISTING flags will offer a solution.Also a clear UNDERSTANDING of the flags and marshal points by all concerned.
Before you get all pissed off at what I'm saying stop and think for a moment. FORGET a specific incident and remember that a Rule applied to road racing has to be the most viable option in MOST situations. Variation leads to interpretation which leads to confusion which ultimately leads to accidents.
I've seen it where what is the simplest oversight has snowballed because of other silly little mistakes and someone has died.
Which is why I'm suggesting that EVERY rider before being given a licence should have a certain knowledge base and should be tested on it.

[MSTRS]

Mate in a nutshell I believe that CORRECT use and availability of the EXISTING flags will offer a solution.Also a clear UNDERSTANDING of the flags and marshal points by all concerned.
Before you get all pissed off at what I'm saying stop and think for a moment. FORGET a specific incident and remember that a Rule applied to road racing has to be the most viable option in MOST situations. Variation leads to interpretation which leads to confusion which ultimately leads to accidents.
I've seen it where what is the simplest oversight has snowballed because of other silly little mistakes and someone has died.
Which is why I'm suggesting that EVERY rider before being given a licence should have a certain knowledge base and should be tested on it.

Not pissed off. I do hear what you are saying etc. But is still frustrating that there is no viable way to get a bike to stop, clear the track and stay off, regardless of the reason why, as things stand now. Things like leaking fluids are not rare, but coupled with a rider who is perhaps not all that experienced, and won't voluntarily get off...will occassionally happen and I still feel that the issue needs to be addressed.

[FROSTY]

Not pissed off. I do hear what you are saying etc. But is still frustrating that there is no viable way to get a bike to stop, clear the track and stay off, regardless of the reason why, as things stand now. Things like leaking fluids are not rare, but coupled with a rider who is perhaps not all that experienced, and won't voluntarily get off...will occassionally happen and I still feel that the issue needs to be addressed.
The "choosing to ignore bit" IMO if you had a flag that said -Hey YOU get the fuck off the track the rider would still ignore it.
Mate the way I see it is you are looking for the bottom of cliff ambulance where I feel the answer is education so the fucker doesn't fall
Now can I make a suggestion here. Ask a few experienced guys what they do when they see a -RED or a BLACK flag.
MY personal reaction is to sit up, hand up in the air and pull off the racing line.

[Kickaha]

Ask a few experienced guys what they do when they see a -RED or a BLACK flag.
MY personal reaction is to sit up, hand up in the air and pull off the racing line.

Red I would, unless the black had my number beside it I wouldn't be doing anything

[ajturbo]

The "choosing to ignore bit" IMO if you had a flag that said -Hey YOU get the fuck off the track the rider would still ignore it.
Mate the way I see it is you are looking for the bottom of cliff ambulance where I feel the answer is education so the fucker doesn't fall
Now can I make a suggestion here. Ask a few experienced guys what they do when they see a -RED or a BLACK flag.
MY personal reaction is to sit up, hand up in the air and pull off the racing line.
THAT is what i tell my SS racers... now...

and hopefully by this time next year they will remember...

[FROSTY]

Red I would, unless the black had my number beside it I wouldn't be doing anything
:devil2:--yep sorry dude ---black with my number by it.
Actually ya know what thinking about it if I actually SAW a black flag waved I would and HAVE pulled off the track.
I'm thinking of a specific incident at Pukie a few years back. The flaggies had ALL the flags and clerk of course requested a BLACK flag at the hairpin -I was in a group of 3 bikes that came in -the number was displayed 1/2 a track away at the start/finish.

[MSTRS]

The "choosing to ignore bit" IMO if you had a flag that said -Hey YOU get the fuck off the track the rider would still ignore it.


But that is different to not having any recognised flag to get off. And can be dealt with later, under the rules, no arguments.

[FROSTY]

But that is different to not having any recognised flag to get off. And can be dealt with later, under the rules, no arguments.
Sory man this is going in circles. There IS a system in place. It WASN'T used.
I have had reservations in the past about Pukie track but one thing I will say is that EVERY marshal point has a FULL selection of flags and every marshal point has two marshals.
The reason for this was demonstrated I feel really clearly of all places in the closeing stages of the Bathurst race yesterday.-A different motor sport yes -the principle applied is the same though

[MSTRS]

Sory man this is going in circles. There IS a system in place. It WASN'T used.


I don't understand? Only the S/F line has black flags of any type. It's always that way, is it not? The bike in this instance wasn't haemorraging until it had passed that point. From then on, there was no officially recognised way of stopping the bike. Logic tells me that all points did the 'right thing', to no avail, but logic is not Rules, and the rider could not necessarily be faulted for ignoring us. He obviously knew (from it's performance) that the bike wasn't right, hence being off to the side, but still, assuming he was unaware of fluid leaks, he did what the rules say he should.
See my post here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129324589&postcount=48)

[k14]

Red I would, unless the black had my number beside it I wouldn't be doing anything
Yeah and just to make things even more complicated, the way they announce a jump start is to display a black flag with a riders number on the board next to it. All it tells the rider is you will have a 20 second penalty when you finish the race. You'd be pissed off if you came into the pits thinking your bike was dodgy after that!

[FROSTY]

I don't understand? Only the S/F line has black flags of any type. It's always that way, is it not? The bike in this instance wasn't haemorraging until it had passed that point. From then on, there was no officially recognised way of stopping the bike. Logic tells me that all points did the 'right thing', to no avail, but logic is not Rules, and the rider could not necessarily be faulted for ignoring us. He obviously knew (from it's performance) that the bike wasn't right, hence being off to the side, but still, assuming he was unaware of fluid leaks, he did what the rules say he should.
See my post here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129324589&postcount=48)
nope its NOT the NORM for flaggies to only have two flags.Unless AMCC are over pedantic with ther flag issueing and that I somehow doubt

[MSTRS]

4, mate, 4.
Yellow, red/yellow, red, blue.

[FROSTY]

Yeah and just to make things even more complicated, the way they announce a jump start is to display a black flag with a riders number on the board next to it. All it tells the rider is you will have a 20 second penalty when you finish the race. You'd be pissed off if you came into the pits thinking your bike was dodgy after that!
WTF--where did that come from??
22.8.16.b --check it out--clearly says what to do --if different is or has been done the someones doing it wrong.
In principle I agree totally with Kick -black flag with my number--off track plain and simple.
Perhaps now is the time for not so much a rule change as a nation wide rule CLARIFICATION specific to the black flag.

[Skunk]

Thanks for this reply Paul,

Your alluding to the ignorance of the rule book is such a historical concern I or you can never alter that situation so don’t get bitter and twisted about it . While its so easy to get a comp licence there will never be a change and only MNZ can alter that stupid scenario.Then that is what WE must try and get MNZ to do.


You want me to clarify if I think a bike is better to circulate with damage/ problems or to park it , I personally believe the situation cant be answered in a general fashion but I have given a few eg; in my previous posts as to why I feel this way.
As with any issue some have a propensity to vote pro and some anti . I vote to cover the logical. Not all situations are the same so a blanket rule is hard to clarify
EG; if a bike has an issue between turn 1 and the esses at Manfeild I would hate to see that bike park up on the inside or outside of the esses, carry on to the slip road before the hairpin and I would congratulate that rider for being proactive. It scares me when I see a rider that crashes in the esses and just stands holding their bike where it stopped while there is still racing and the chance of a bike hitting a stranded rider is increased considering the same type of crash normally deposit’s a bike in the same place as the stranded rider from the first crash, I have seen it and its devastating. A parked up bike is a target for a crashing bike in some situations , don’t park there and the chance of being hit is nil. I believe that is what is meant by "when it is safe to do so". As soon as safe/where it is safe. Not all the way to the pits nor immediately at full race speed! The rider still needs to use common sense - and most do.

Your reference to an accident at Puke is from what I understand due to a rider trying to reach the side of the track to “park it “, am I correct ?I have been told he was making his way to the pits. That was why he crossed the track. He was on one side and was crossing to the other. Someone will know the truth - all you and I seem to have is hearsay. Either way he was not at 'race pace' on a fast part of the circuit which is what the park rule and the qualifying rule are designed to prevent. The park rule still needs common sense from the rider. As you allude to above - that is not always there in the heat of the moment.

[Skunk]

Yeah and just to make things even more complicated, the way they announce a jump start is to display a black flag with a riders number on the board next to it. All it tells the rider is you will have a 20 second penalty when you finish the race. You'd be pissed off if you came into the pits thinking your bike was dodgy after that!
WTF? Who does that?

[Billy]

Yeah and just to make things even more complicated, the way they announce a jump start is to display a black flag with a riders number on the board next to it. All it tells the rider is you will have a 20 second penalty when you finish the race. You'd be pissed off if you came into the pits thinking your bike was dodgy after that!

Well thats just plain stupid.The black flag displayed with a riders number should only be used for its correct intention,Which is too warn the rider of a problem and remove them from the circuit.A penalty for a jump start can easily and simply be enforced at the end of the race.WHO the fuck is making these ridiculous decisions ????

[Tony.OK]

Chapter 6

6-8-1 Every competitor whose machine becomes disabled must where possible remove his/her
machine to the side of the course.


6-19 The following flags will be recognised as the standard colours to be used as signals to riders during a race:

Green: Start

Red: All riders stop racing.

Yellow: Held Stationary – SLOW DOWN – Proceed with caution. No overtaking until danger area is passed. Sidecar riders-this could also mean your passenger is in difficulties.

Yellow: Waved – SLOW DOWN NOW – Proceed with extreme caution. No overtaking until the danger area is passed, be prepared to stop.

White: Last lap.

Black: Individual rider to stop and retire from course. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the black flag is displayed.

Black and White Check: Finish for all riders.

Red and Yellow Stripes: Oil on course.

Red and White Cross: Ambulance on course, proceed with caution.

Black with Orange Centre: Road Race Only: Machine to be removed from the circuit immediately. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the flag is displayed. Flags must be a minimum size of 24” x 24” (600mm x 600mm).

Blue Waved Road Racing: Overtaking signal warning rider is about to be overtaken.

Blue Held Stationary Road Racing: Indicates that competitor is soon to be overtaken.


Now where does it say only the start line can have # boards and cartain flags? The answers are there in writing, it just depends on the organisers if they want to invest in how events are run.
Yep it'll cost a bit but its a 1 off cost and there's been offers made in the past.

[k14]

Well thats just plain stupid.The black flag displayed with a riders number should only be used for its correct intention,Which is too warn the rider of a problem and remove them from the circuit.A penalty for a jump start can easily and simply be enforced at the end of the race.WHO the fuck is making these ridiculous decisions ????
Happened to me at Puke 2 years ago. I didn't even see it (yeah shoot me if you want, they only showed it for 1 lap) and was informed after the race.

[FROSTY]

Thanks Tony--thats my point xactly

[Kickaha]

Now where does it say only the start line can have # boards and cartain flags? .

Perhaps it has been rewritten but it used to say Red or Black would be displayed only at the start/Finish, maybe it was changed when they changed the rule so red flags could be displayed at other points

[MSTRS]

Thanks Tony--thats my point xactly

We appear to be zeroing in on a solution.

All marshal points to have Yellow, Yellow/Red, Blue - the use of being that point's decision, as well as at Control's request.
All marshal points to have a Red (as it is now) - only to be used at Control's request.
Additional...All marshal points to have a Black/Orange and number board/marker pen - only to be used at Control's request.

That should give the desired coverage and flexibility for full circuit, trackside removal that is, and has been, lacking.

Edit: obviously the black/orange would be used rarely, because the riders themselves will normally remove their bike from the track when something is (majorly) wrong. It is what to do for the rare times when they don't that I started this thread about.

[Kickaha]

We appear to be zeroing in on a solution.

All marshal points to have Yellow, Yellow/Red, Blue - the use of being that point's decision, as well as at Control's request.
All marshal points to have a Red (as it is now) - only to be used at Control's request.
All marshal points to have a Black/Orange and number board/marker pen - only to be used at Control's request.

That should give the desired coverage and flexibility for full circuit, trackside removal that is, and has been, lacking.

Best solution so far, however it still relies on the competitors knowing what the flags mean and then obeying them

Perhaps penalties for disobeying the flag signals?

[MSTRS]

Perhaps penalties for disobeying the flag signals?

There aren't already??

[FROSTY]

We appear to be zeroing in on a solution.

All marshal points to have Yellow, Yellow/Red, Blue - the use of being that point's decision, as well as at Control's request.
All marshal points to have a Red (as it is now) - only to be used at Control's request.
All marshal points to have a Black/Orange and number board/marker pen - only to be used at Control's request.

That should give the desired coverage and flexibility for full circuit, trackside removal that is, and has been, lacking.
Mate maybee I was being a bit too veiled-The solution has been there the entire time. It shouldn't have been a solution because it shouldn't have been a problem in the first place

[Kickaha]

There aren't already??

generally I have seen a talking to from the stewards, perhaps exclusion from the results might be more of a deterrent

[FROSTY]

Best solution so far, however it still relies on the competitors knowing what the flags mean and then obeying them

Perhaps penalties for disobeying the flag signals?
I havent renewed my licence fro two years now-Do they issue the rule book with new licences like they used to?
I raised this in another thread. If a person wants a race licence maybee they FIRST get sent out the rule book and a questioneer to answer. Send back the questioneer with 100% correct answers then get sent your licence.

[Kickaha]

I havent renewed my licence fro two years now-Do they issue the rule book with new licences like they used to?


Not unless you request it, easier to keep them updated online

[FROSTY]

A
Billy has had several goes at me for not following the MNZ rulebook to the letter, now you're telling me I shouldn't and it's complex.
Just to clarify my comment here. I (me speaking for myself) feel that the machine specification part of the rule book needs to be looked at in a serious way. This discussion in hindsight is NOT the place to make that comment as it confuses the matter at hand where the rules of conduct are actually very clearcut.

[Skunk]

[ sidetrack ]

This discussion in hindsight is NOT the place to make that comment as it confuses the matter at hand where the rules of conduct are actually very clearcut.
We have to hold up a 'check helmet strap' sign for a certain length of time. The way VMCC do it is to physically check the riders strap and that they have a back protector on. I think VMCC's way is more thorough. But VMCC still must show the sign. This is one thing Billy has pulled me up on - I wasn't aware of it as a requirement.
[ / sidetrack ]
Normal service resumes...

[FROSTY]

[ sidetrack ]

We have to hold up a 'check helmet strap' sign for a certain length of time. The way VMCC do it is to physically check the riders strap and that they have a back protector on. I think VMCC's way is more thorough. But VMCC still must show the sign. This is one thing Billy has pulled me up on - I wasn't aware of it as a requirement.
[ / sidetrack ]
Normal service resumes...
Its a requirement to display the check helmet strap.FIM rule of which MNZ is an affilliate.
A serious suggestion for you is to grab a copy of the latest MNZ rule book you can find and have a read up.
Not the motorcycle tecnical stuff but the safety stuff.
For example rule 6.10 is interesting and might explain a F2 riders reaction to being taken out

[Skunk]

One thing with the Board and Black/Orange flag is the time required to relay the info to the checkpoint and get them to do it. Due to no fault of anyone's (Bike noise, distractions, other voices on the radio etc) the message is lost or delayed too long. Another issue is some races have bikes with the same number on them... This is purely logistical - not an excuse by me as to why VMCC don't use them on every flag point.

[Skunk]

I've read the thing - don't worry. I have a much better understanding of the rule book than I did when Billy pulled me up on that.

But do you not agree that a physical check is better than a sign?

I have no idea what you are referring to with rule 6.10... It's to do with overtaking.

[Billy]

I've read the thing - don't worry. I have a much better understanding of the rule book than I did when Billy pulled me up on that.

But do you not agree that a physical check is better than a sign?



Absolutely it is,But as I explained too you at the National round,If its in the rulebook then it has too be done,Otherwise you are left open to protest from the riders.To be honest,When I first saw that board held up at the WSBK round at Manfeild back in 88,I thought WTF do we need that for!

[Skunk]

I'm not disagreeing with you Billy - I think the whole rule book needs a good going over. That's all. If it's in the rules it must be followed.
I wish some Stewards knew the rule book too.

[MSTRS]

The thing about 'rules' is that (mostly) they are there for good reason - ie painful lessons demonstrated the need for them. Sometimes, rules may become obselete due to changes in technology, or changes in other procedures...but once in the handbook, it's a bitch to prove they are no longer needed. Just as hard to get a new rule included, since without a major incident to prove the need, why would anyone want more rules?
And sometimes (just like some statutes) a rule is a good one, but the way it's written needs to be addressed.

[FROSTY]

Actually one thing this has highlighted is a lack of flag knowledge.
I think an information rather than discussion thread would be a good idea.

[Shaun]

Actually one thing this has highlighted is a lack of flag knowledge.
I think an information rather than discussion thread would be a good idea.



Ha ha why, how many people involved in this thread even race a bike mate? If a rider cannot learn the rules them selves, they are a moron, and should be kicked off a race track

[FROSTY]

Ha ha why, how many people involved in this thread even race a bike mate? If a rider cannot learn the rules them selves, they are a moron, and should be kicked off a race track
They don't need to actually RACE. The racers are in my opinion right down at the bottom of the information chain.
ANYONE INVOLVED in running a meeting should be aware.
If anything this thread has highlighted a lack of that knowledge.

And mate I apreciate where you are coming from but I'm reading back on my own -wanna go racing thread and NOWHERE did it say --Ohh and you need to know the rules/flags. (fixed now)
I think Vic club could POTENTIALLY fall victim to its own success if this issue isn't adressed.

[MSTRS]

Actually one thing this has highlighted is a lack of flag knowledge.
I think an information rather than discussion thread would be a good idea.

Post #2 pretty much covers that