Reliability myth takes a dent

[Bob]

This morning, I was supposed to be road testing a Honda CBF125 for the bike paper I work for. I say supposed, as when I got there - apart from the dealer forgetting I was coming along (!) - they couldn't let me have the bike.

Reason? A brand new one, which a customer was coming to pick up that day, had a "porous" tank (for which read rusted and letting petrol seep out of it). So as the demo bike was the same colour scheme, they'd had to swop the tanks.

Now that is a brand new, never been on the road bike. And it had a rusted tank.

Hardly bears up to the myth of "Oh, it is a Honda, so 10 out of 10 for reliability", does it?

There used to be a show on in the UK, where someone wanted to switch to a new bike, so they would find them a range of machines to test ride. One of the criteria was 'Reliability' (after a 20 minute test ride? Please!). And every time it was a Honda, out came the Pavlovian reponse "Oh well it is a Honda, so 10 out of 10".

Just goes to show you shouldn't rely on urban myths. You also shouldn't rely on dealers remembering you are showing up, or that they will contact you if there is a problem!

[slowpoke]

What, so one problem with one bike and we should say Honda's reputation is ruined?

Get real mate, one bike was found to have a problem predeliveryand repaired, isn't that what predelivery checks are all about? What more can you ask for? If you expect perfection you are going a lead a very disappointed life.

From your own UK:

"RiDER Power 2008 is the UKs largest biking survey and asks motorcycle owners a variety of questions about their machines and riding kit. According to the RiDER Power survey results, the new-for-2008 CBR1000RR Fireblade has become Britains favourite bike and scored an impressive 92.19% satisfaction rating, showing that the people who bought it are delighted with its accessible power, sharp handling, outstanding build quality and overall usability. Hondas ST1300 Pan European also featured in the top five, with a satisfaction rating of 88.53% overall."

Best bike and 2 bikes in the top 5, from what is not a premium manufacturer is a great achievement. You obviously don't like that Honda have this reputation, but it's been generated by the people who use them, so get used to it.

If you've got a problem with a TV show (that we don't even see) and a dealer then I don't think it's fair to tar any manufacturer as a result of their ineptitude.

So what mag/rag did you say you worked for? "Axe Grinder Weekly" was it?

Waits expectantly for inevitable flood of "Shock horror, the bar-end just fell off my '79 CX500" type posts.............

[YellowDog]

I 'Pourous Tank' on a new bike is quite shocking. It implies that something has gone quite wrong in the production process.

Being one of the better manufacturers; hopefully they can recall the batch and plug this rare hole.

[slowpoke]

I 'Pourous Tank' on a new bike is quite shocking. It implies that something has gone quite wrong in the production process.

Being one of the better manufacturers; hopefully they can recall the batch and plug this rare hole.

Given that bike manufacturers are starting to shut down plants (Harley etc)you have to think that bike storage is brimming all over the world. Some of it is going to be less than ideal, but needs must.

Who knows what's wrong with the tank? Is it a manufacturing defect? A poorly preserved bike in storage? Faulty materials? Yada yada....

How do you go from one tank to a whole batch? Jesus, it's worse than Chinese whispers............

[bsasuper]

Anything manmade can have an off day, look what happened to NASA

[Elysium]

No bike is perfectly reliable. Its just that Honda built up a reputation of good bikes when they bought out such models like the old 69 CB750 for example.
The only thing wrong with the bike was that it was too boring because it did everything right and without problems.

Every bike manufacture will have some problems along the way i.e. faulty weld points on certain Suzuki GSX's (R6 I think?) faulty fuel injectors on certain year Yamaha FZ1's and so on.

[Bob]

What, so one problem with one bike and we should say Honda's reputation is ruined?

Get real mate, one bike was found to have a problem predeliveryand repaired, isn't that what predelivery checks are all about? What more can you ask for? If you expect perfection you are going a lead a very disappointed life.

From your own UK:

"RiDER Power 2008 is the UKs largest biking survey and asks motorcycle owners a variety of questions about their machines and riding kit. According to the RiDER Power survey results, the new-for-2008 CBR1000RR Fireblade has become Britains favourite bike and scored an impressive 92.19% satisfaction rating, showing that the people who bought it are delighted with its accessible power, sharp handling, outstanding build quality and overall usability. Hondas ST1300 Pan European also featured in the top five, with a satisfaction rating of 88.53% overall."

Best bike and 2 bikes in the top 5, from what is not a premium manufacturer is a great achievement. You obviously don't like that Honda have this reputation, but it's been generated by the people who use them, so get used to it.

If you've got a problem with a TV show (that we don't even see) and a dealer then I don't think it's fair to tar any manufacturer as a result of their ineptitude.

So what mag/rag did you say you worked for? "Axe Grinder Weekly" was it?

Waits expectantly for inevitable flood of "Shock horror, the bar-end just fell off my '79 CX500" type posts.............

Got your goat there, didn't I? :jerry:

I have no problem with Honda: what I do have a problem with is urban myths. I get driven insane by pretty much muttering by rote "Hondas are reliable. Yamahas have poor finish" and so on. When I owned one of the first Fazers (so 1998 model) and sold it, I got praise from the dealer as to how good a condition it was in. But if you went by "urban opinion", it should have been falling to pieces, with no paint left on the engine and so forth.

A few years back, I did research into product recalls by manufacturers. And guess which one made the most recalls? Honda. And which one made the fewest? That would be Harley-Davidson.

Yes, I was surprised as well. (That news item will be somewhere on this forum)

Mind you, if you're talking about me Honda bashing, saying that they are NOT a "premium manufacturer" is another kick in their corporate testicles, isn't it?

Btw, I quite agree that sorting the issue before it went to the customer was well done. But I hope they're honest about the tank being switched from the test bike.

The point I am making is that people spew out this line, almost robotically, about "It is a Honda, so it is reliable". "It is a Yamaha, the paint will fall off." "It is a Suzuki, so the fork legs will pit as soon as it rains."

(Actually, there used to be something in that, but the current GSX650F is handling bad weather extremely well)

And as for "What mag/rag". I didn't! But as you ask, I work for Motor Cycle Monthly (not Motor Cycle News). Mainly news provision (now there is a surprise), but I do some bike tests as well. Which is why I was supposed to be test riding said CBF125 today. And I was really looking forward to it.

Read any bike tests I have written - you will find they're fair, even handed and do not rely on punting out the above urban myths.

What I want people to do is think; not just quote these lines in an almost religeous mantra. We can but hope.

[Bob]

Given that bike manufacturers are starting to shut down plants (Harley etc)you have to think that bike storage is brimming all over the world. Some of it is going to be less than ideal, but needs must.

Who knows what's wrong with the tank? Is it a manufacturing defect? A poorly preserved bike in storage? Faulty materials? Yada yada....

How do you go from one tank to a whole batch? Jesus, it's worse than Chinese whispers............

Wait for news appearing around the world "Honda tanks are made of soft cheese"... and then everyone to repeat it, endlessly, until it becomes another urban myth :weird:

[ajturbo]

Waits expectantly for inevitable flood of "Shock horror, the bar-end just fell off my '79 CX500" type posts.............

well it friggin well did!!!

WTF you gona do about it???????????????????

oh i have sold the bike a while ago and that missing weight brought the price down $50... i WANT compo for all the hardship i had to suffer from not haveing that $50 and the humiliation of the other guy pointing out the fact that bar end was missing...

AT TODAYS RATES... so where's my $5m?... i can see i will need to arrange a hui... and who will pay for that???????????

[slowpoke]

A few years back, I did research into product recalls by manufacturers. And guess which one made the most recalls? Honda. And which one made the fewest? That would be Harley-Davidson.

You can look at that several ways: they make shit bikes, or they set high standards and stand by their product, or they make the most bikes (which they do?) and therefore the most defects. Bikes per defect would be a more meaningful measure.

Mind you, if you're talking about me Honda bashing, saying that they are NOT a "premium manufacturer" is another kick in their corporate testicles, isn't it?



You know as well as I do that the big 4 Japanese are different animals to MV Agusta, Ducati, BMW etc. That their bikes quite often outperform them yet cost substantially less is a modern marvel.

[Crasherfromwayback]

You know as well as I do that the big 4 Japanese are different animals to MV Agusta, Ducati, BMW etc. That their bikes quite often outperform them yet cost substantially less is a modern marvel.

I've worked with just about every brand in the last 23 odd years...and the one brand who's rep for reliability is not deserved is BMW!

[Pedrostt500]

When you are making motorcycles by the tens of thousands, regardless of brand, from time to time a dud will be made, ok so predelivery and factory QA will pick up most faults, but every so often a fault will slip the net.
When you have a factory that churns out say a million widgets a year, and there is a small fault found that would cost a dollar each widget to fix, some times it is cheaper to let the fault pass than spend a million dollars fixing it, when changes to next years widget will fix that fault, unless it is built by Brittish Leyland then you just add another fault.

[speedpro]

I've never owned one but a few mates along the way have and they were all pretty adamant that BMW stood for Bastard Might Work.

The rusty tank may be a cause for concern depending on the cause. Poor prep, poor storage, poor finish, poor construction?? Given modern manufacturing techniques it's unlikely to have effected just one.

[cheesemethod]

When you have a factory that churns out say a million widgets a year, and there is a small fault found that would cost a dollar each widget to fix, some times it is cheaper to let the fault pass than spend a million dollars fixing it, when changes to next years widget will fix that fault, unless it is built by Brittish Leyland then you just add another fault.


A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

I hate to think how much truth there could be behind that theory.

[crash harry]

Porous tank doesn't necissarily mean rusty... I've seen components that leak fuel for all sorts of reasons. I could have been a pinhole in a weld or a flaw in the sheet steel or something - to make the leap from "fuel tank weeps" to "rusty, poor quality control, undeserved reputation" is a bit of a jump.

[JayRacer37]

Got your goat there, didn't I? :jerry:


A few years back, I did research into product recalls by manufacturers. And guess which one made the most recalls? Honda. And which one made the fewest? That would be Harley-Davidson.

Yes, I was surprised as well.

Is that cos Honda admits and fixes it's F-ups, and Hardly just keeps on keeping on (Producing the same old shite)? :shutup:

[Pedrostt500]

I've never owned one but a few mates along the way have and they were all pretty adamant that BMW stood for Bastard Might Work.

The rusty tank may be a cause for concern depending on the cause. Poor prep, poor storage, poor finish, poor construction?? Given modern manufacturing techniques it's unlikely to have effected just one.

Having owned a BMW the scariest thing is knowing that the price of parts with those horibble three letters on em will cost three times the much of any other makes bike part, I doubt Ill ever own another BMW.

[Mully]

I hate to think how much truth there could be behind that theory.

As I recall, Ford Motors in the 70s (??) had that with the Ford Pinto. The way the fuel tank was fitted meant it was prone to blow up in a minor nose to tail. Ford calculated that it was cheaper to defend lawsuits and pay compensation to anyone injured than to recall and repair all the cars.

[YellowDog]

Given that bike manufacturers are starting to shut down plants (Harley etc)you have to think that bike storage is brimming all over the world. Some of it is going to be less than ideal, but needs must.

Who knows what's wrong with the tank? Is it a manufacturing defect? A poorly preserved bike in storage? Faulty materials? Yada yada....

How do you go from one tank to a whole batch? Jesus, it's worse than Chinese whispers............
Yes you ARE right.

I am sure that this tank was hand made as a one off.

AND the made up bike was stored in less than ideal conditions all on its own.

So no need to worry about how new your new bike actually is.

Build Date
Register Date
Storage Season.

[bogan]

Porous tank doesn't necissarily mean rusty... I've seen components that leak fuel for all sorts of reasons. I could have been a pinhole in a weld or a flaw in the sheet steel or something - to make the leap from "fuel tank weeps" to "rusty, poor quality control, undeserved reputation" is a bit of a jump.

I agree, unless the tank was left out in the salt spray on the boat ride over, it unlikely the tank would rust through so quickly. Even a good mash of the fuel tap during assembly/delivery could cause it.

Though me thinks I have a picture which may sum it up

[p.dath]

I wonder if they forgot to treat the tank. If they forgot to treat the tank, did they also forget to treat the rest of the bike?

But I agree. Probably a manufacturing glitch rather than overall change in build quality.

I've owned three Honda's now, and never had a single break down. My current Honda CBR600 now has 60k km's on it.

[pritch]

I've worked with just about every brand in the last 23 odd years...and the one brand who's rep for reliability is not deserved is BMW!

BMW has the benefit of a reputation that it possibly no longer deserves. Back in the day BMWs were built by tradesmen and their quality was unsurpassed. If you were going to circumnavigate the globe there was just one choice - BMW. (Although apparently nobody told Ted Simon that... )

When BMW opened their factory in Berlin and hired assembly workers off the street the quality unsurprisingly suffered. It still isn't necessarily bad, it's just no longer the absolute best you can get.

Honda reliability isn't a myth, it's based on a lot of surveys over nearly half a century now. I was talking to a Honda dealer who said they had never found a single loose fastener on a Honda. Pre-delivery checks will turn up the occasional loose nut on even the "prestige" European brands (KTM was mentioned specifically). They are built by humans after all, and that's what the checks are for.

Various Honda models are now assembled in India, Brazil, Italy, and possibly China, as well as Japan. Honda build quality is now more of a variable. The Japanese assembled bikes will be as good as ever but some of the others may not be to the same standard.

Bob referred to a 125cc bike? Hardly a flagship model and it's not exactly realistic to expect Faberge build quality on what is a basic budget bike.

Sorry, but the original post reminds me of Chicken Little's response to the acorn.

[HenryDorsetCase]

but the original post reminds me of Chicken Little's response to the acorn.

"Ah, shit, not acorns again, why can't I have steak and chips"

[SixPackBack]

I agree, unless the tank was left out in the salt spray on the boat ride over, it unlikely the tank would rust through so quickly. Even a good mash of the fuel tap during assembly/delivery could cause it.

Though me thinks I have a picture which may sum it up

I agree with crash harry, logically rust would be the least likely reason. Poor welding, poor design, seal failure are more likley. Regardless of the cause quality control is to blame!

[SMOKEU]

I've had endless problems with my Honda Melody and CG125, yet my CBR250R has performed flawlessly (so far).

[jonbuoy]

I've worked with just about every brand in the last 23 odd years...and the one brand who's rep for reliability is not deserved is BMW!

I nearly swallowed the urban BMW reliability myth till I started poking around a few BMW bike forums. Same goes for VW/Audis - Toyota beat them both hands down in consumer surveys. You can't go far wrong with a jappa.

[Edbear]

Wait for news appearing around the world "Honda tanks are made of soft cheese"... and then everyone to repeat it, endlessly, until it becomes another urban myth :weird:

Honda tanks are made of cheese..!!???:shit: Wait til I tell my friends!!!! :done:


I've worked with just about every brand in the last 23 odd years...and the one brand who's rep for reliability is not deserved is BMW!

You mean to say that BMW bikes are built like their cars...????? :shutup:

[Swoop]

Wait for news appearing around the world "Honda tanks are made of soft cheese"
Possibly a good move. A tasty lunchtime snack without having to stop for a fatty pie.
Please get back to us when the other half of the story emerges.

As I recall, Ford Motors in the 70s (??) had that with the Ford Pinto. The way the fuel tank was fitted meant it was prone to blow up in a minor nose to tail. Ford calculated that it was cheaper to defend lawsuits and pay compensation to anyone injured than to recall and repair all the cars.
Possibly the ford "explorer" A.K.A The "ford EXPLODER".

Bloody hopeless fraud manufacturing...

[Elysium]

Possibly a good move. A tasty lunchtime snack without having to stop for a fatty pie.
Please get back to us when the other half of the story emerges.

Possibly the ford "explorer" A.K.A The "ford EXPLODER".

Bloody hopeless fraud manufacturing...

Explains why Toyota are kicking the bi....small three over there.

[325rocket]

Is that cos Honda admits and fixes it's F-ups, and Hardly just keeps on keeping on (Producing the same old shite)? :shutup:


beat me to it!

[Mully]

Possibly the ford "explorer" A.K.A The "ford EXPLODER".

Bloody hopeless fraud manufacturing...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto#Safety_problems_and_scandal

[sidecar bob]

Having owned a BMW the scariest thing is knowing that the price of parts with those horibble three letters on em will cost three times the much of any other makes bike part, I doubt Ill ever own another BMW.

People tend to fixate on the prices of european stuff, its quite comparable with any other brand.
Just ordered tappet covor gaskets for my R90s powered sidecar today, $27.00 for two of them. I seriously doubt you could get half a Gixxer one for that.