I've been thinking...

[Mom]

Always a bit of a worry with me to be fair, my mind tends to wander all over the show. I love mulling things over in my mind, one thought leads to another and… I forget what I was originally thinking about. Sadly this happens during conversations too, but that is another story altogether.

Have you seen the cost of registering a motorcycle these days? Wow, we are certainly paying for the negative statistics generated from our high ACC claims and accident rates. That got me to thinking (and doing a bit of research) about the reasons why we feature so highly, and that in turn led me to thinking about music. Well, technically not about music per se, more about my relationship with it.

Stay with me here.

I am a classically trained musician and although I don’t play so much these days, I can play a bit of music reasonably well at first glance, provided I have the score in front of me. Give me a bit of practise and I can produce some very lovely stuff. Ask me to pick up and play a tune without the score then I fail miserably. Now, I have a friend who is a fantastic trumpet player. When he plays he is fully capable of bringing tears to your eyes. While he can read music, he almost never does, he somehow instinctively can play the most complicated music by ear. He reckons I am a great player, I say the same of him. I remember my teacher despairing of ever turning him into a great player, because he played his way, not the right way. Guess who ended up making a very good living playing trumpet?

So one thing leads to another and I go back to figuring out a way to reduce my registration costs. I think about riding lessons and rider education and reduction in accident rates for the BAB’s (Born Again Bikers) that seem to be the highest rating accident statistic generators.

Surely we should all be taking lessons? Learning all we can about the right and wrong way to ride, the technical details, the absolutes to becoming a great rider? This will undoubtedly reduce our accident rate. Then again, perhaps we should embrace the instinctive rider inside us and let it all hang out? Who is the better rider? The educated and practised one, or the one that has natural skill, or is a combination of the two the way to go?

Talking to a friend of mine the other day and this subject came up. He had just had a lesson with a respected motocross expert. He laughed when I asked what he gained from his lesson. The biggest thing he learned was that he has spent the past 20 years perfecting the art of doing it wrong.

Thinking on this a little further though, what makes a better rider? One who has been taught to ride “properly” or one who has that natural skill, and rides really well despite not having lessons?

[Usarka]

Someone who has natural skill and receives training in the basics right at the beginning so they're pointed in the right direction and can concentrate on "perfecting doing it right"....?

[madbikeboy]

Mom flexing her intellectual horsepower...

Adding $0.02...

There are some people, regardless of how many lessons or attention they recieve, who will forever be unable to ride well or correctly. Most of these people seem to also be in middle management, talk loudest at parties or meetings, and drive an "executive" car. They have an inability to grasp finer concepts, and fail to use the humility that one needs to begin the learning process.

There are others, who throw their leg across, and for whom the mechanical sympathy and ease of flowing with the bike is somehow inherent - your example of the trumpet player is an excellent visual.

The point is, that some people are more sensitive and tuned into their world, and when they get on a bike, they are able to process all the available information, and make forward rapid progress. With education, I think this group end up being excellent riders - and in my experience, this group also has enough humility to want to improve, and therefore, they seek more more information.

Okay, this is a gross oversimplification, attitude, experience, etc etc all have an effect. But, when you picture a born again, the one you saw drinking at the CoroGlen, or Puhoi - wasn't he dressed in the Harley accessory catalogue, talking too loudly, everything shiny and new. Wasn't he harping on, not listening, doing all the talking, like he does in his middle management job? Isn't he the same guy, with wife on the bitch pad, who can't ride in a straight line, or who turns in too early, hits the brakes halfway through the most modest bend, and then rips the throttle as soon as he can get the crusier pig stood up? Hmm. Thought so. All the quiet advice in the world, all the lessons, all the time spent giving advice - wasted for sure.

[MSTRS]

Training without an innate ability is no guarantee of making a great rider. Passable, yes. Safe, yes. Considerate, yes. Great....nope. But then few of us want (or need) to be great.

[crazyhorse]

Natural skill obviously plays a huge part in it. But also being taught by someone who is a great rider also comes into it.

Being shown where to corner, taught that smooth is best, and then of course, being able to put it all into practise.

[boomer]

Mom flexing her intellectual horsepower...

Adding $0.02...

There are some people, regardless of how many lessons or attention they recieve, who will forever be unable to ride well or correctly. Most of these people seem to also be in middle management, talk loudest at parties or meetings, and drive an "executive" car. They have an inability to grasp finer concepts, and fail to use the humility that one needs to begin the learning process.

There are others, who throw their leg across, and for whom the mechanical sympathy and ease of flowing with the bike is somehow inherent - your example of the trumpet player is an excellent visual.

The point is, that some people are more sensitive and tuned into their world, and when they get on a bike, they are able to process all the available information, and make forward rapid progress. With education, I think this group end up being excellent riders - and in my experience, this group also has enough humility to want to improve, and therefore, they seek more more information.

Okay, this is a gross oversimplification, attitude, experience, etc etc all have an effect. But, when you picture a born again, the one you saw drinking at the CoroGlen, or Puhoi - wasn't he dressed in the Harley accessory catalogue, talking too loudly, everything shiny and new. Wasn't he harping on, not listening, doing all the talking, like he does in his middle management job? Isn't he the same guy, with wife on the bitch pad, who can't ride in a straight line, or who turns in too early, hits the brakes halfway through the most modest bend, and then rips the throttle as soon as he can get the crusier pig stood up? Hmm. Thought so. All the quiet advice in the world, all the lessons, all the time spent giving advice - wasted for sure.

Someone stook in a rut as a lackey..??!

[2wheeldrifter]

Lost me after you said... " my mind tends to wander...."



Just kidding.... :shifty: Good idea, but no one seems to care if you have a done a defensive driving course for rego purposes do they? It would cool if that was the case if you have done such a course and it would lower your rego bill! Now that would blow my horn :blip:

Who is a better rider, don't think there is a correct answer for that, to many variables like personalities.

[Conquiztador]

Not sure where you want to take this?

There is no compulsory training that anyone has to do. When you get your license you only need to pass a written and riding test. The riding test much depends on where you are and who is testing. Then you are set to go.

When you stop riding as a result of work, kids, partner, mortgage etc thats it. You just stop. No keeping of the knowledge is required. Then at 40 you get a little extra $$'s and you remember how you enjoyed the biking and you buy something with 7 times the HP you ever had and you ride out of the shop.

Never anywhere is there a need to learn anything. Only the ones who want to can do so. For a price. No incentives to learn. All at a cost. To the rider.

No matter if you are a self thought trumpet player or a classically trained pianist. One size fits all.

Some of us have been riding copetetively bikes. Others not.
Some of us love our bikes and know the smallest details as we fix everything our self. Others could not give a shit what makes her tick as long as she can do 180k down the motorway.
Some of us are proud of our self made modifications. Others pay for the bling.
And some of us like to become better riders as the enjoyment increases. Others rather spend money on a bigger bike as surely that is all it takes to get better?

You only have two options:
- Legislation change so all have to do training.
or
- Change the way ppl think.

When/if this happens, guess what our guvernment will settle for...

[Hitcher]

As an aspiring Ukelele God(TM), I realise that there is more to mastery of that King of stringed instruments than just grim determination. The same can be said of motorcycling.

In both cases the worst thing that can happen is delusional misrepresentation of one's ability.

I may feel differently once I have mastered my D to G transitions...

[madbikeboy]

Someone stook in a rut as a lackey..??!

Yeah, totally me. Today I'm the coffee bitch, and receptionist.

[dipshit]

Surely we should all be taking lessons? Learning all we can about the right and wrong way to ride, the technical details, the absolutes to becoming a great rider?

First you need to define what is a "great rider" with good skills..?

Is it someone like this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvsnGQchHn0

Or someone like this...
http://vimeo.com/5858308

..???

[vifferman]

And what good thoughts they were too! :niceone:

I know Eggs Zachary what you mean; I'm a self-taught guitarist, not much natural talent, came to it late, can't read music (and not interested in learning). #2Son on the other hand, has quite a bit of innate ability, but also when he started learning (keyboard, guitar), he decided to learn "properly", and learned all the theory, can read music easily, has had lessons (keyboard, guitar, violin). OTOH, I taught him to drive (no professional lessons), and he resists all attempts to get him to take lessons or his full test, and has some awful habits. He's a very good driver, but with a few tips and lessons, he could be great.

My riding is all self-taught, plus what I've learned from books and the Interdweeb. Like with a bicycle, the very first time, I just got on and went.
I have no aspirations to take lessons, but I'm not sure if it's pride, complacency, or quite what. However, after 35 years of riding, I'm still learning, and still have things to learn.

[AllanB]

Oddly enough the older I get and consequently the longer I've been riding (28 years now), the hardest thing I find to master is keeping near the legal open road limit.

No issues with this in the car - it's just a bike thing.

I blame modern bikes.

[Hitcher]

Playing a ukelele whilst negotiating a cone-marked slalom or doing an emergency stop would make an interesting YouTube video...

[MSTRS]

Playing a ukelele whilst negotiating a cone-marked slalom or doing an emergency stop would make an interesting YouTube video...

You missed taking the blue one this morning, didn't you?

[MarkH]

Thinking on this a little further though, what makes a better rider? One who has been taught to ride “properly” or one who has that natural skill, and rides really well despite not having lessons?

To be honest I don't think this is important. I have however much natural skill that I have and I can't do anything to change that. Someone with more natural skill than me has the potential to be a better rider just as I have the potential to be better than someone that has less natural skill than me.

What matters to me is whether a good rider can become a better rider and whether a bad rider can become a reasonable rider or even a good one.

I think that those people who are not interested in learning are not going to become better than what they are. Those that are willing to be taught can improve and become better riders - I would rather listen to a mentor and become better than not, what is wrong with reducing your chances of dying in an accident? I returned to riding less than a year ago and not long after that I went along to an RRRS course - this gave me stuff to think about and has been helpful in self evaluating my performance. I have also ridden over 20,000 Kms - this has helped to become more comfortable with various situations. If there were an advanced riding course that I could do that resulted in paying less ACC then I would be happy to attend - but ACC don't do stuff like that, they really don't do much to reduce accidents at all (I know they do some things like TV ads).

[Genestho]

Have you seen the cost of registering a motorcycle these days? Wow, we are certainly paying for the negative statistics generated from our high ACC claims and accident rates. So one thing leads to another and I go back to figuring out a way to reduce my registration costs. I think about riding lessons and rider education and reduction in accident rates for the BAB’s (Born Again Bikers) that seem to be the highest rating accident statistic generators.

Surely we should all be taking lessons? Learning all we can about the right and wrong way to ride, the technical details, the absolutes to becoming a great rider? This will undoubtedly reduce our accident rate. Then again, perhaps we should embrace the instinctive rider inside us and let it all hang out? Who is the better rider? The educated and practised one, or the one that has natural skill, or is a combination of the two the way to go?



I can hear the cogs turning from here woman!! haha!!

If you want to take this musing a little further....

Check out what's happening with the Auck Roadsafety Group, I'm pretty sure they said Aucks are conducting similar meetings as we are in WBOP.

Following my judge of character and instinct - which has always been pretty good, I feel with the WBOP group, being all bikers or involved in the Bike community in some way - ACC rep and NZ Police Rep included, are zoning in on the issues, using ALL available input from all involved.

I believe there is some listening going on.

The problem is there are alot of ideas, beyond ad's and posters, but let's keep in mind - budget can restrict ideas! Also, things won't happen overnight.

There's another lobbying avenue with a massive network - perhaps, but it may be pointless as this stage when the aboves are happening.



Not sure where you want to take this?

There is no compulsory training that anyone has to do. When you get your license you only need to pass a written and riding test. The riding test much depends on where you are and who is testing. Then you are set to go.



You only have two options:
- Legislation change so all have to do training.
or
- Change the way ppl think.

When/if this happens, guess what our guvernment will settle for...

Mmmmhmmmmm:2guns:

There is a planning strategy underway with regards to Roadsafety.

Because I've persisted in a few areas, I am now on consultation list directly with Ministry of Transport for the Safer Journeys Roadsafety strategy to 2020

If you're keen to get involved in something Mom, just let me know, I can point you in a few places:sunny:

[Pussy]

I personally think EVERY holder of a driver licence should HAVE to do a Defensive Driving course every five years

[CookMySock]

I think the first hour on a motorcycle is critical grounding that must take place.

Everyone resorts to their initial instincts in an emergency, and for some it is to stand the bike up and brake, and for others it is to choose a new direction and bar push.

Thats how I brought my newbie riders into the biking world, but of course I am light-years away from drawing any conclusion from it.

Steve

[MarkH]

I personally think EVERY holder of a driver licence should HAVE to do a Defensive Driving course every five years

Or better still - something useful like an advanced driving/riding course. With motorcycles that could involve going through some exercises while experienced mentors watch what you do and how you do it. Have training available that can correct any bad habits that are observed. For the competent riders this may involve less than 1/2 an hour demonstrating your competence then you are on your way with a renewed license. Maybe for those that lose their license due to too many demerit points there could be an option to undergo advanced training and immediately get their license back if they pass the evaluation. Imagine what the road would be like if they were filled with competent riders & drivers! Maybe the well trained drivers would even have the skills to drive on the road without hitting motorcycles.

[eelracing]

Thinking on this a little further though, what makes a better rider? One who has been taught to ride “properly” or one who has that natural skill, and rides really well despite not having lessons?


Interesting post Mom to which I reckon you already answered as a combination of the two.

To use a racing comment "It is easier to teach a fast rider who crashes a lot to slow down,than it is to teach a slow rider who never crashes to go faster".
Or is it? Its gotta depend on the person and there motivation i reckon.

But what is natural ability?Would Tiger Woods have been a MotoGP champ if his dad had put him on a bike instead of a golf course as a toddler?

Are musical talent and athletic talent drawn from the same well?

Genius is one step away from insanity in most cases.

Oh yeah...what was the question?

Seat time backed up by good theory is the best course.
Natural ability will only take you so far as determination/motivation has seen a lot of less talented sportspeople reach there goals
Its just that natural athletes make it look a lot easier than it is. (Bastards)

All bets are off when it comes to the road tho,coz a large slice of self control/awareness better be added to the mix.

[Ixion]

..
To use a racing comment "It is easier to teach a fast rider who crashes a lot to slow down,than it is to teach a slow rider who never crashes to go faster".
..

But in the context of the OP, of SAFETY and NOT crashing we don't WANT to teach the slow rider who never crashes to go faster. If he never crashes, that's all good.

What we need to do is teach the fast rider who crashes a lot how to stop crashing. Which may, or may not, involve persuading him to go slower.

This is the trouble with all discussions like this, they get hijacked by the racers into a good rider = fast rider paradigm.

[dipshit]

Natural ability will only take you so far as determination/motivation has seen a lot of less talented sportspeople reach there goals
Its just that natural athletes make it look a lot easier than it is. (Bastards)

All bets are off when it comes to the road tho,coz a large slice of self control/awareness better be added to the mix.


This is where the waters get muddied. Is the idea for improving "rider skills" meant to make more people be able to pull longer wheelies and scrape their foot pegs around corners and lose their chicken strips... or to stop riders from fucking crashing..??

(important to define what a good rider is as the two are almost polar opposites)

[Big Dave]

Playing a ukelele whilst negotiating a cone-marked slalom or doing an emergency stop would make an interesting YouTube video...

I can juggle 3 golf balls while standing up on the pegs and rolling downhill on a motorcycle.

Co-pilot will not agree to film the stunt however.

[dipshit]

What we need to do is teach the fast rider who crashes a lot how to stop crashing. Which may, or may not, involve persuading him to go slower.

This is the trouble with all discussions like this, they get hijacked by the racers into a good rider = fast rider paradigm.

Exactly. These legions in their own lunchtime types think they are the best thing since carbon fibre was invented.

And they think they need to pass on their "amazing skills" to all the granny riders out there.

[eelracing]

This is the trouble with all discussions like this, they get hijacked by the racers into a good rider = fast rider paradigm.

Thats not my intention at all,but the question asked was what makes a better rider,natural Vs theory.Not what makes a safer rider.

But i'm willing to bet more ACC is payed out to motocross and roadracers than road riders.

Funnily enough since i started roadracing I hav'nt had a single accident on the road (touch wood).

[Ixion]

Thats not my intention at all,but the question asked was what makes a better rider,natural Vs theory.Not what makes a safer rider.

But i'm willing to bet more ACC is payed out to motocross and roadracers than road riders.

Funnily enough since i started roadracing I hav'nt had a single accident on the road (touch wood).

Well, no. The original question was (my emphases)


Have you seen the cost of registering a motorcycle these days? Wow, we are certainly paying for the negative statistics generated from our high ACC claims and accident rates. That got me to thinking (and doing a bit of research) about the reasons why we feature so highly


Motocross and roadracers don't pay registration (or ACC, unless they are professionals) .

In that context it is certainly arguable that 'better' = safer', not 'better' = faster.

And I could certainly envisage that one rider might have a very high natural ability to ride faster , but very little natural ability to not crash n a public road context (and that context is indicated by the registration comment). Whereas another rider might have very little natural "go fast" ability, but a great deal of "keep safe don't crash" ability.

It is surprising how many people are unable to grasp the inherent illogicality in a 'good' rider being extricated from a ditch. Until that is resolved we won't see casualty rates come down.

To eb sure, a few lucky folk have natural ability at both and can ride both fast and safe. (And a few lack both , and crash despite being slow)

[Mom]

Everyone resorts to their initial instincts in an emergency, and for some it is to stand the bike up and brake, and for others it is to choose a new direction and bar push.

I will totally refute that comment for a couple of reasons.

I believe that if you are taught the skills you need to control a motorcycle in an emergency situation, or even if you already have some kind of preprogrammed inherant natural ability to do the right thing under pressure that is what you actually do resort to when faced with an emergency. There is no panic, there is a simple decision to do what you know has to be done.

The other thing I note from many conversations with people, is that the more you practise (for example) emergency braking - you know the "progressive application of brake" as opposed to the "OMG! grab up a handful of front and slam on the rear brake to stop fast" kind of braking, the quicker you will automatically do it when you need to.


Interesting post Mom to which I reckon you already answered as a combination of the two.

Seat time backed up by good theory is the best course.

I have bolded a comment in your post that I think is actually very valid indeed. Experience has to also be the key to safe riding.


But in the context of the OP, of SAFETY and NOT crashing we don't WANT to teach the slow rider who never crashes to go faster. If he never crashes, that's all good.

What we need to do is teach the fast rider who crashes a lot how to stop crashing. Which may, or may not, involve persuading him to go slower.

This is the trouble with all discussions like this, they get hijacked by the racers into a good rider = fast rider paradigm.

Thank you Ixion. See for me speed has absolutely nothing to do with being a safe, reliable and great rider. Roadcraft, and the ability to avoid getting yourself in the doo doo in the first place, along with having the ability to get yourself out of trouble if it happens, is to me the most important thing.


First you need to define what is a "great rider" with good skills..?

Well mate, if you dont actually know what a great rider with good skills actually is, I cant really help you out.

[dipshit]

Well mate, if you dont actually know what a great rider with good skills actually is, I cant really help you out.

Is it this guy...?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvsnGQchHn0

Or these guys...?
http://vimeo.com/5858308

[Mom]

Is it this guy...?

Or these guys...?

You know I am not sure why you feel the need to bring your agenda in here but seeing as this is the 2nd time you have posted links today I watched them.

The first rider is safe by virtue of the fact that every hazard was pointed out for him. If that is what you think needs to happen to make riding safe then I suggest you lobby the government to adjust signage around the country. If this bloke has to rely on signs to warm him of every potential hazzard along the way then heaven help him is all I can say.

As far as the fellas having a bit of fun out and about goes, I cant comment as I dont actually know anything about their riding apart from what they have chosen to post on some web forum. I not so conceited as to comment on how great a rider they are.

While I may or may not condone some of the skills demonstrated in that second clip being done on the open road, the clip you posted has no relevance to my thread.

In case you missed it, I am talking about safety and reducing accidents primarily, along with the differences between learned skills and God given ones and if that makes a difference.

[Katman]

In case you missed it, I am talking about safety and reducing accidents primarily,

Motorcycle accident stats would plummet if motorcyclists stopped riding in a manner that makes them an accident waiting to happen.

[dipshit]

In case you missed it, I am talking about safety and reducing accidents primarily, along with the differences between learned skills and God given ones and if that makes a difference.


Exactly. The skills of reading the road and any possible dangers ahead and having enough self-control to ride accordingly are far more important than what many around here seem to think constitutes a good rider. Ironically the second group in the vids are the very people that think they are the best in the world because they think they have all the skills and natural abilities.

This is more about attitude and road craft skills more than anything else.

[Motu]

An interesting analogy,and one I have often thought of myself - I see a jazz or rock musician doing a solo,their eyes are closed and the music is just pouring out of them through the instrument,fingers flying,just knowing where to go to find the next note.I feel this is sometimes how I ride a motorcycle,on or off road - I know not what I am doing,my body moves,flicks through gears,the throttle and brakes go on and off,the bike flicks from side to side,I know instinctively when to do what,how much,and how fast....and also how much I can push it until things go wrong.It's exhilarating...and I suspect I am not alone in riding like this.

My wife has serious musical talent,it's just ''in'' her.She can play any instrument she picks up,and just knows the theoretical side of music inside and out.She can sight read unknown music,and transpose it to her clarinet as she goes.Yet if you ask her to just ''play'' something she cant,she needs the written stuff.Her brothers all play....but she can't ''jam'' with them,doesn't know how to do it.She was taught how to ride at a riding school,and is technically a good rider,and yet it all seems to be mechanical to her - she can't ''jam'' on a motorcycle.

Back to how far we have got off topic - I don't think there is an answer.You can teach someone before they ride,or if they survive....teach them after they have learned.In the end they will be the rider they were always going to be.

[mossy1200]

ACC figures would change a lot if motocross guys didnt fill nature of accident as motorvehicle ,motorcycle.More cross guys go on acc than road riders but road riders pay the acc cost section in their regos.

[Mom]

ACC figures would change a lot if motocross guys didnt fill nature of accident as motorvehicle ,motorcycle.More cross guys go on acc than road riders but road riders pay the acc cost section in their regos.

Really? Where have you gleaned that information from? Serious question here.

[Mom]

An interesting analogy,and one I have often thought of myself - I see a jazz or rock musician doing a solo,their eyes are closed and the music is just pouring out of them through the instrument,fingers flying,just knowing where to go to find the next note.I feel this is sometimes how I ride a motorcycle,on or off road - I know not what I am doing,my body moves,flicks through gears,the throttle and brakes go on and off,the bike flicks from side to side,I know instinctively when to do what,how much,and how fast....and also how much I can push it until things go wrong.It's exhilarating...and I suspect I am not alone in riding like this.

My wife has serious musical talent,it's just ''in'' her.She can play any instrument she picks up,and just knows the theoretical side of music inside and out.She can sight read unknown music,and transpose it to her clarinet as she goes.Yet if you ask her to just ''play'' something she cant,she needs the written stuff.Her brothers all play....but she can't ''jam'' with them,doesn't know how to do it.She was taught how to ride at a riding school,and is technically a good rider,and yet it all seems to be mechanical to her - she can't ''jam'' on a motorcycle.

Back to how far we have got off topic - I don't think there is an answer.You can teach someone before they ride,or if they survive....teach them after they have learned.In the end they will be the rider they were always going to be.

Not off topic at all mate. Thank you for hearing the analogy so clearly. So she cant jam eh? Is jamming that important in the big picture do you think?

[mossy1200]

When i snaped my thumb(a long time ago now).I went to hospital and because i couldnt hold the pen the nurse filled out the forms.She ticked motorvehicle accident and wrote motorcyle on the acc form.When i tried to explain it was off road she told me that it was still the same thing.

Things might have changed now but i would assume that since you cant get revenue from an off road vehicle(tax them)then it will still fall into the road user acc figures.i might be incorrect.Would pay to ask the X riders if they have had similar experience with forms more recently.

Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups.
So I could be wrong....
There is three unregistered bikes for every registered bike in NZ and they cause a lot of broken bodies.

when you look at acc form and it says nature of accident and you tick motorvehicle and then when it asks type of vehicle and you tick motorcycle.Which direction do you think that file is pushed????

[mnkyboy]

I've been thinking

How dare you....

I don't think Maha signed on for that

/runs

[beyond]

Trouble is the ACC stats are crowded with off road incidents, four wheel bike incidents, farmbike incidents and all of them go against our stats :(

Mom... you are right both times. Good riders are those who constantly learn and improve and are teachable but a lot of natural talent comes into play here too.

Some people can study and practice forever and they might never attain the skills of a good natural rider.

Modern machines are very quick when they are given a bit of throttle so smoothness is the first key but smoothness is no good if people do not look well ahead and even if they look well ahead, it means nothing without good reflexes and so we go around the bush :)

[Crisis management]

Really? Where have you gleaned that information from? Serious question here.

My experience....35 years of road riding (except the times I missed the road) and a shit load of luck mean no accidents where I injured myself enough to require treatment but 18 months of trail riding and so far it's 2 cracked ribs, two well tweaked knees and a seriously sprained ankle. Now I didn't claim ACC for any of them either, but I think he may have a bit of a point there, everytime I go near a trail ride I can guarantee an ambulance gets involved at least once and quite often in a fairly dramatic way.

As for the actual topic, I'm a simple bloke, I just ride bikes, fall off and have a bit of a laugh, cerebal stuff I will leave to others.

[Mom]

Mom... you are right both times. Good riders are those who constantly learn and improve and are teachable but a lot of natural talent comes into play here too.

Modern machines are very quick when they are given a bit of throttle so smoothness is the first key but smoothness is no good if people do not look well ahead and even if they look well ahead, it means nothing without good reflexes and so we go around the bush :)


So how do we instill these techniques in the young/old/BAB's and show we are actually not a bunch of hoons, despite the apparent video evidence on the web supporting this premise?

[RantyDave]

Surely we should all be taking lessons?
You mean, getting bikers to admit that they're not perfect? Have we been on the same KB all this time or do you have a special one that only has honest people with insane powers of self awareness?

What do you play? FWIW I used to play piano to a reasonable level and never read the music.

Dave

[Grahameeboy]

But in the context of the OP, of SAFETY and NOT crashing we don't WANT to teach the slow rider who never crashes to go faster. If he never crashes, that's all good.

What we need to do is teach the fast rider who crashes a lot how to stop crashing. Which may, or may not, involve persuading him to go slower.

This is the trouble with all discussions like this, they get hijacked by the racers into a good rider = fast rider paradigm.

So you advocate that speed is the issue then..not confirmed by LTSA stats

[Grahameeboy]

So how do we instill these techniques in the young/old/BAB's and show we are actually not a bunch of hoons, despite the apparent video evidence on the web supporting this premise?

Take them on a Maha ride of course...
MotorcyclistsAgainstHooningAround

[Maha]

Take them on a Maha ride of course...
MotorcyclistsAgainstHooningAround

You want a T-Shirt???.....:laugh:

[Grahameeboy]

You want a T-Shirt???.....:laugh:

......and undies...........:shutup:

[Ixion]

So you advocate that speed is the issue then..not confirmed by LTSA stats

Read what I wrote .



we don't WANT to teach the slow rider who never crashes to go faster. If he never crashes, that's all good.

What we need to do is teach the fast rider who crashes a lot how to stop crashing. Which may, or may not, involve persuading him to go slower.


I'll explain it in very simple words , just for you. Well, actually I probably can't get any simpler words. So we'll go through it again. Concentrate hard.

Some riders go slow , and don't crash. If they don't crash, there's no reason to teach them to go fast. What it said above .

Some ridbers go fast and crash. We need to teach them not to crash Which may, or may not, involve persuading him to go slower.

Get it? If a rider doesn't crash, then it doesn't matter if he's fast or slow. If he does crash, maybe he needs to go slower. Or not. So, NOT just speed related

Only your strange brand of illogic could have derived from the original a purported meaning clearly the exact opposite of that which was clearly written.

He who runs may rede. Unless he's a Pommy.

[Grahameeboy]

Read what I wrote .



I'll explain it in very simple words , just for you. Well, actually I probably can't get any simpler words. So we'll go through it again. Concentrate hard.

Some riders go slow , and don't crash. If they don't crash, there's no reason to teach them to go fast. What it said above .

Some ridbers go fast and crash. We need to teach them not to crash Which may, or may not, involve persuading him to go slower.

Get it? If a rider doesn't crash, then it doesn't matter if he's fast or slow. If he does crash, maybe he needs to go slower. Or not. So, NOT just speed related

Only your strange brand of illogic could have derived from the original a purported meaning clearly the exact opposite of that which was clearly written.

He who runs may rede. Unless he's a Pommy.

Funny cause I am not a Pommy.....I just read it the way it was written and kinda understand now

[Motu]

Trouble is the ACC stats are crowded with off road incidents, four wheel bike incidents, farmbike incidents and all of them go against our stats :(


I don't see the problem - they are motorcycle accidents,caused by people riding motorcycles.So it gets put on motorcycle registration...um,that's where it needs to go.I'm paying for all the dickheads that crash motorcycles - it doesn't matter what or where they ride,I'm still paying for them.Take responsibility for motorcycling - the whole deal,because it's ALL us.

[mossy1200]

I don't see the problem - they are motorcycle accidents,caused by people riding motorcycles.So it gets put on motorcycle registration...um,that's where it needs to go.I'm paying for all the dickheads that crash motorcycles - it doesn't matter what or where they ride,I'm still paying for them.Take responsibility for motorcycling - the whole deal,because it's ALL us.


Thats not really user pays if your paying registration for a road bike ,mostly acc content that is calculated on a combination of registered and unregistered bikes.Acc content needs distributed over the target group.
Your indicating that rugby union should pick up the bar tab for netball clubs seeing as they both throw around a ball.

[Motu]

No,because we are ALL motorcyclists...y'know,that warm glowing family feeling.Are they some sort of bottom feeding scum and not worthy of your superior attention just because they ride a dirt bike? I don't see why I should pay for some wannabe sportsbike rider riding well beyond his ability on public roads either....but he rides a bike...so,he's one of us eh?

[MadDuck]

No,because we are ALL motorcyclists...y'know,that warm glowing family feeling.

Now I know you really really mean that Motu :love:

[Motu]

Of course I don't mean it - but everyone elses thinks they do....but just don't put it practice.

[mossy1200]

No,because we are ALL motorcyclists...y'know,that warm glowing family feeling.Are they some sort of bottom feeding scum and not worthy of your superior attention just because they ride a dirt bike? I don't see why I should pay for some wannabe sportsbike rider riding well beyond his ability on public roads either....but he rides a bike...so,he's one of us eh?

Comments are not directed at cross riders but at the way a small group of people fund a larger pool.regos at $300+ dollars is a joke.My point is that with more off road bikes than onroad these cost of injuries should be funded by the collective acc pool funds in the same way that any other sports injury is covered instead of loading figures onto one group which directly effects the pockets of those in that group.
I used to ride off road also and have no problem with acc footing injury payments as this is what acc does.Its the directing the costs onto my rego that I dont like.
The acc content is a direct result of misleading information collected by a form which has no ability to seperate a road injury from a off road injury.

then someone who most likely has never riden a bike in his/her life sends me an invoice/tax/bill/levy based on incorrect information.

Im also not suggesting off road vehicles be subject to acc levy.
Im not suggesting skis should be registered because skiing has the potential to be dangerous.
Im not going try to get tramping boots taxed because trampers get lost in the hills.
It would be good if stats were exact before number crunchers pass on costs.

[Motu]

Personaly,I don't have a problem with it.I do have a problem with paying ANY ACC costs for motorcycling accidents.Other people fucking up are costing me money.

[SARGE]

i can juggle 3 golf balls while standing up on the pegs and rolling downhill on a motorcycle.

Co-pilot will not agree to film the stunt however.

i just got a new vidcam ...

Im in ..


Seriously ...

[Big Dave]

I'll have my people talk t'your people.

[Mom]

You mean, getting bikers to admit that they're not perfect? Have we been on the same KB all this time or do you have a special one that only has honest people with insane powers of self awareness?

What do you play? FWIW I used to play piano to a reasonable level and never read the music.

Dave


Yeah well I like to look for the good in people eh mate :D

I play cornet, but can turn my hand to all brass instruments, found the trombone a challenge, my arms are just a tiny bit too short to reach the end of the slide eh. Once upon a time I conducted a brass band.

[Dodgyiti]

I think anyone can learn new and better/safer ways to ride.
Only problem is, the longer you have been doing it wrong for, the harder it is to avoid slipping back into old habits.
I am not able to take in and practice a lot of new things at once, as I found out at a rider training course. I can take in one or two things at a time, practice them and beat out the 'old ways'.
But too many new tricks at once is too much for this old dog.

[Voltaire]

I have two registered bikes, a dirt bike and I go skiing.....fortunately for me and ACC I can only do one thing at a time.....:blink:

I paid 1000 euros for a year to insure my Kombi in Ireland ..ouch
This included your personal cover as there is no ACC...its stictly user pays.
Insurance there meant there were no boy racers, cars much over 2 litres or large capacity motorcycles and rego was scaled to engine size.
In the two years I lived there I never saw a V8 outside a car show.
Go the EU.

When I lived in Aussie 20 years ago it was then over $ 300 for bike rego and over $400 for a van.

Recently on a trip to Shanghai I was told motorcycles are not allowed on the motorways and the govt is encouraging them to trade up to a car by letting them take the number plate accross.


Nothing like a bit of seeing how others live to give you an appreciation of New Zealand.

[PrincessBandit]

My wife has serious musical talent,it's just ''in'' her.She can play any instrument she picks up,and just knows the theoretical side of music inside and out.She can sight read unknown music,and transpose it to her clarinet as she goes.Yet if you ask her to just ''play'' something she cant,she needs the written stuff.Her brothers all play....but she can't ''jam'' with them,doesn't know how to do it.She was taught how to ride at a riding school,and is technically a good rider,and yet it all seems to be mechanical to her - she can't ''jam'' on a motorcycle.

.

That sounds very familiar to me. I am classically trained (in music) and teach my chosen instruments as my occupation. I can sightread anything on any of them, play pretty well (don't like to blow my own trumpet - except that is one thing I don't actually play) but the limited "jamming" ability I have has been gleaned from long long years of playing and experience, not lessons in how to do it. It's not a natural talent thing for me, but it doesn't really bother me. We all have our different areas of specialising, and I'm happy with mine.

Relating that to biking, I am perfectly happy with the way I ride. That is not to say I don't feel there's room for improvement at all, in the same way any decent musician is always striving to improve regardless of their current ability. But I don't see the need for me to "push the boundaries" or achieve "milestones" that some seem to have as goals e.g. getting knee down, managing to pull a wheelie or stoppie. I'd be only too happy to have "lessons" in order to improve my very average riding skills, yet if I keep riding and gaining experience (good and bad) I will also learn my own lessons and that's sufficient for me at the moment.

[Ixion]

No,because we are ALL motorcyclists...y'know,that warm glowing family feeling.Are they some sort of bottom feeding scum and not worthy of your superior attention just because they ride a dirt bike? I don't see why I should pay for some wannabe sportsbike rider riding well beyond his ability on public roads either....but he rides a bike...so,he's one of us eh?


It's not so much a matter of 'paying'. If one is a taxpayer, one pays one way or other. The problem is that ACC say "there are only X number of registered motorcycles, and Y (big ) number of injuries. Gosh motorcycles are dangerous. Better have some more rules regulations and redtape for them". But, the Y number includes all the off road accidents. The X number doesn't. If they added in the offroad bikes the injury rate looks much better. And of course , all the RR&R fall on the road bikes, not the off roaders.

They need to count the off roaders.

[newbould]

It's not so much a matter of 'paying'. If one is a taxpayer, one pays one way or other. The problem is that ACC say "there are only X number of registered motorcycles, and Y (big ) number of injuries. Gosh motorcycles are dangerous. Better have some more rules regulations and redtape for them". But, the Y number includes all the off road accidents. The X number doesn't. If they added in the offroad bikes the injury rate looks much better. And of course , all the RR&R fall on the road bikes, not the off roaders.

They need to count the off roaders.

Or uncount the off roaders hospital bills.

[The Stranger]

I don't see the problem - they are motorcycle accidents,caused by people riding motorcycles.So it gets put on motorcycle registration...um,that's where it needs to go.I'm paying for all the dickheads that crash motorcycles - it doesn't matter what or where they ride,I'm still paying for them.Take responsibility for motorcycling - the whole deal,because it's ALL us.

All good - except the off road riders frequently don't pay for registration and thus avoid ACC contributions.

So as a result. ACC take the cost of motorcycle related accidents and divide it by the number of registered motorcycles then inform us that we need to cough up more cause we are so bad.

So yes great lets all of us take responsibility, couldn't agree more this will require registering of all off road and farm bikes too. I'm all for it. Lower costs and more accurate accounting of ACC costs will follow.

Not sure if NZ is similar to Ausie, but I have seen stats indicating that in excess of half the bikes sold in aus are off road. I would sure appreciate a 50% reduction in my ACC reg component.

[Mom]

All good - except the off road riders frequently don't pay for registration and thus avoid ACC contributions.

So as a result. ACC take the cost of motorcycle related accidents and divide it by the number of registered motorcycles then inform us that we need to cough up more cause we are so bad.

So yes great lets all of us take responsibility, couldn't agree more this will require registering of all off road and farm bikes too. I'm all for it. Lower costs and more accurate accounting of ACC costs will follow.

Not sure if NZ is similar to Ausie, but I have seen stats indicating that in excess of half the bikes sold in aus are off road. I would sure appreciate a 50% reduction in my ACC reg component.

Here are the latest statistics from LTNZ (2007 mind you) showing the number of registered motorcycles in NZ.

http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/statistics/motor-vehicle-registration/2007/table-31.html

So have you got any bright ideas how we find out how many off-road riders there are? I did some stuff on licenses too and have the data for the number of what class 6 there are, I think I even have the numbers of disqualified somewhere :D

Just thinking out loud here, should a levy be imposed at purchase then on all bikes that goes towards the ACC costs of ownership.

I think I might have to go and find some accident statistics :blip:

[Motu]

Off road bikes used to be registered,any bike sold,or brought into the country had a plate.I've had several MX and trials bikes that had plates - made it much easier to ride them on the road.The change came in around 1995 when the VIN came in.Of course the plate was constant,registered or unregistered,it always had a rego plate....unregistered for 10 years? Just go in and pay for rego,instant legal.The good old days eh?

Anyway - I look at off road as the biggest riding school in the country,if they are out there riding,they are far better riders for it....we all benifit....but some like to moan about it.

[Mom]

Off road bikes used to be registered,any bike sold,or brought into the country had a plate.I've had several MX and trials bikes that had plates - made it much easier to ride them on the road.The change came in around 1995 when the VIN came in.Of course the plate was constant,registered or unregistered,it always had a rego plate....unregistered for 10 years? Just go in and pay for rego,instant legal.The good old days eh?

Anyway - I look at off road as the biggest riding school in the country,if they are out there riding,they are far better riders for it....we all benifit....but some like to moan about it.

Wonder if I can get sales info from the distributors? I am sure we used to get a sales by make and model thing back when I was selling. Probably long since got by the wayside.

[98tls]

Anyway - I look at off road as the biggest riding school in the country,if they are out there riding,they are far better riders for it....we all benifit....but some like to moan about it. Absolutely,nothing i can add really,says it all.

[The Stranger]

Anyway - I look at off road as the biggest riding school in the country,if they are out there riding,they are far better riders for it....we all benifit....but some like to moan about it.

Yes a great riding school, though they also produce a great many injuries.
I must say, very generous of you Motu offering to pay for the free loaders, I could use a hand with my ACC, but somehow, I expect you would moan about paying that.

[98tls]

Yes a great riding school, though they also produce a great many injuries.
I must say, very generous of you Motu offering to pay for the free loaders, I could use a hand with my ACC, but somehow, I expect you would moan about paying that. From my experience someone whos played around off-road before hitting the road is a way better bet than a first timer on a GN wobbling about in the direction of the next accident.

[The Stranger]

From my experience someone whos played around off-road before hitting the road is a way better bet than a first timer on a GN wobbling about in the direction of the next accident.

I whole heartedly agree with you on that. All riders would benefit from some off road experience.

[Qkkid]

I whole heartedly agree with you on that. All riders would benefit from some off road experience.
:wari: I dont have a MEafter my KB name but i agree:yes:

[98tls]

I whole heartedly agree with you on that. All riders would benefit from some off road experience. Theres the added benefit of learning to listen to your old man ie when i was 9 i was plodding about off-road on an SL125 Honda,the old man bought a brand new TL250 trials bike,he caught me eyeing it keenly and a "Oi..no fucken way" comment was yelled my way,it was all to much and next thing im on the thing in the paddock across from the house.All was good until as most 9 year olds do i guess i took it all to far and went racing up a bank got airborne then crashed to the ground with a set of 4 stroke single cooling fins branding my inner thigh for a good few seconds:blink:after managing to get myself from under it i look across to the house to see the old man laughing it up.:angry:

[slofox]

If I may hark back to Mom's original post regarding natural talent and training:

In my experience, both as a teacher and as a learner, I am aware that neither one nor the other of those qualities works alone. You need both - some talent and some training - to be good at anything. It is often said that success is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration. My experience would back that up.

I have been riding on and off for over forty years. I have had gaps of some time without owning a bike, but have always thought of myself as a biker.
I don't know how much natural talent I had to start with and I have no idea how "good" I am now. But I have learned a helluva lot about riding throughout the years. I am still learning. A lot of what needs fixing, I am aware of, being focused on self diagnosis - not just in riding I might add. If I can't work out what to do to fix a problem, then I will seek advice, be it from a book, an article, this forum or an instructor. But I won't just ignore a problem and hope it goes away. About six months ago I did an advanced rider's course here and sure enough, Ward picked up exactly what I was concerned about and made some very sound suggestions which I still work on six months down the track.

The other thing about training your talent is patience. You don't need to be the ace today - tomorrow is soon enough. Or the day after that or the day after that. Rushing things doesn't work. Practice takes time. And time takes patience.

My partner and I dance (ballroom) at a competitive level. We have been at this for over ten years together and we still have to train five nights a week to be even acceptably good, let alone to be top dogs. Even Augusto Schiavo, when he was world professional champion (best dancer I ever saw incidentally) had trainers. Nobody ever knows it all. If you want your talent to be fully realised, you need training. Ongoing training.

The learning curve never ends.

[Motu]

Yes a great riding school, though they also produce a great many injuries.


Go to a Charity ride - say 700 riders,and yes there will be some injuries....Scott would know the figures if he can be bothered with this thread.Compare it to a KB Coro Loop....20 odd riders and a BTV.

[Ixion]

Off road bikes used to be registered,any bike sold,or brought into the country had a plate.I've had several MX and trials bikes that had plates - made it much easier to ride them on the road.The change came in around 1995 when the VIN came in.Of course the plate was constant,registered or unregistered,it always had a rego plate....unregistered for 10 years? Just go in and pay for rego,instant legal.The good old days eh?

Anyway - I look at off road as the biggest riding school in the country,if they are out there riding,they are far better riders for it....we all benifit....but some like to moan about it.


Not quite.

Originally, you got a new PLATE every year . The plates were different colours. Then they changed to a new plate every three years, still different colours, with a label in the intermediate years.

All motor vehicles had to have a plate, because with the plate also came the (compulsory) third party insurance. So bikes and vehicles that never went on the road had a plate. Unless their owners had separate third party insurance, as big companies usually did.

Then, a few years ago,sometime in the 50s I think they switched to the permanent plate idea.

Then later, to the present system. I'm not sure if it was when VINs came out or when ACC replaced third party insurance.. I think it was earlier than 1995, in fact it must have been because by 1995 the plates were the black and white ones.

[Mom]

If I may hark back to Mom's original post regarding natural talent and training:

I am still learning. The learning curve never ends.

Apologies for the shortened quote.

So, if you can tell me, how do we convince our more bomb proof biking couterparts of this? The smell of raw testosterone can be very overwhelming sometimes.

[Hitcher]

Then, a few years ago,sometime in the 50s I think they switched to the permanent plate idea.

It would have been somewhere about 1963. My dad bought a 1963 PB Velox, rego 149-534 that in reasonably short order became CA9838. For years we had a newspaper clipping outlining how the plates were allocated around the country -- CA & CB were Taranaki plates.

[slofox]

Apologies for the shortened quote.

So, if you can tell me, how do we convince our more bomb proof biking couterparts of this? The smell of raw testosterone can be very overwhelming sometimes.

Only experience will teach that Mom - if those concerned last long enough for it to take effect...

It's the same with anything though - young lads do tend to push the envelope somewhat...as I did myself when that age and with a shorter perspective on life in general. And some returnees are worse than their younger counterparts as well...like idiots who ride at 206km/hr through fog f'rinstance....and that's only on the memory of the smell of raw testosterone...

[98tls]

If I may hark back to Mom's original post regarding natural talent and training:



I have been riding on and off for over forty years. I have had gaps of some time without owning a bike, but have always thought of myself as a biker.
I don't know how much natural talent I had to start with and I have no idea how "good" I am now. But I have learned a helluva lot about riding throughout the years. I am still learning. A lot of what needs fixing, I am aware of, being focused on self diagnosis - not just in riding I might add. If I can't work out what to do to fix a problem, then I will seek advice, be it from a book, an article, this forum or an instructor. But I won't just ignore a problem and hope it goes away. About six months ago I did an advanced rider's course here and sure enough, Ward picked up exactly what I was concerned about and made some very sound suggestions which I still work on six months down the track.

The other thing about training your talent is patience. You don't need to be the ace today - tomorrow is soon enough. Or the day after that or the day after that. Rushing things doesn't work. Practice takes time. And time takes patience.


The learning curve never ends. Interesting read mate,an old fart myself and to be honest i get a bit miffed with all this "advanced rider this n that".Not saying ive a problem with it at all just bothers me a little in that one blokes way of doing things may be different from the next and completly natural to him and if it works hows it wrong?Take it to the highest level and you will find some pretty clever riders who done it flying a finger at the considered right way of doing it.To be honest im glad im not some young fella just kickin off my first motorcycling miles,would spend to much time making decisions on how to do it instead of doing it.

[Ixion]

Apologies for the shortened quote.

So, if you can tell me, how do we convince our more bomb proof biking couterparts of this? The smell of raw testosterone can be very overwhelming sometimes.

People keep throwing out the "testosterone" thing. But I'm far from convinced that it's any more than a convenient mantra.

If testosterone was involved one would expect it to show as speed rather than crashing. Of course, the two may be linked. But not always. I have seen more than one a Harley crash when speeds were quite low.

And the reverse is even more noticeable.Some riders a fast coounts. But don't crash. And in some cases, manifestly testosterone cannot be blamed.

Take Mr Boomer for example. He is a fast coount. But Mr Boomer is a homo (I know this because WINJA told me - I have no personal knowledge of Mr Boomer's homoness or otherwise . But I think WINJA may be relied on, he knows a lot about the subject:msn-wink:). And, being so, testosterone is an unlikely contender for the culprit. Nor does Mr Boomer crash very often (I think).

Likewise Mr Carver. He is a self professed (self confessed ? self obsessed?) homo. Who likewise , despite his persona actis , is actually a good and quite safe rider (sorry to let the secret out Mr carver).

And Crazy Steve. Who is not, as far as I am aware, a homo , though innuendo rumour and salacious gossip are always welcome. But he is crazy. We know that because, duh, if he wasn't his name would be Sane Steve, wouldn't it. Mr Steve is also a fast coount. Very fast. Probably, however, because he is crazy, not because of testosterone. And despite both crazy and non-homoness, he does not crash.

[The Stranger]

:wari: I dont have a MEafter my KB name but i agree:yes:

Running wide on a corner and going through a ditch doesn't count. :girlfight:

[Madness]

Nothing taught me more about biking than the excruciating pain I felt when I binned at the ripe age of 16.

[98tls]

Nothing taught me more about biking than the excruciating pain I felt when I binned at the ripe age of 16. Yep works better than the "thinking chair" eh.

[Madness]

Yep works better than the "thinking chair" eh.
I wouldn't know. Was too thick for one of them.

[slofox]

one blokes way of doing things may be different from the next and completly natural to him and if it works hows it wrong?

Very very true 98tls. No one teacher/mentor/coach has all the answers. In our dance career, partner and I have been through about six different coaches. Each one has had some good and some bad features. You learn something from each of them. But not all that any one coach says is correct for us. We have slowly developed an overview of what we need to know and an overview of how to achieve certain aims. We take the good bits and drop the bad bits of each coach's input. The same applies to any skill, biking included. Look at the differences of opinion that are expressed in this forum...(lunacy excepted of course!!!)

The advanced course I did was as much to give me a bit of a push along as to fix problems. It was also designed to test my own defensive riding habits (which checked out OK in fact - at least according to the dude running the course.) Really, what it did was focus me on certain things - like emergency braking for instance. That's the sort of thing that too many people never train for. For me, the course was less about how to do things than about what I needed to think about more.

[Mom]

Take Mr Boomer for example....

Likewise Mr Carver....

And Crazy Steve.....


Well now, I have met all these riders and have ridden with them too.

Mr Carver and I have made up our differences, I wont say he is ok because as you poiont out there is some doubt. As far as the other two go, I would be happy any time to ride with them. Or to be honest here, for us to say Hi! at the start point, and enjoy our lunch together when I eventually get there.

Speed I dont believe is the only thing governed by testosterone. There is also the, have to be as good as or even better than the other bloke(read that as fast if you like) element. The competitiveness and the desire to be top dog. If I keep up, I too can be cool like them :yes: Too bad I dont have the skills or ability to, it cant be that hard, can it?

In fact speed has almost nothing to do with what I am talking about. Speed is relative. What I call fast is probably a cake walk for some riders, though with out a doubt it will be illegal and of course I never exceed 100 kph, I dont want to die.

[Grahameeboy]

Only experience will teach that Mom - if those concerned last long enough for it to take effect...

It's the same with anything though - young lads do tend to push the envelope somewhat...as I did myself when that age and with a shorter perspective on life in general. And some returnees are worse than their younger counterparts as well...like idiots who ride at 206km/hr through fog f'rinstance....and that's only on the memory of the smell of raw testosterone...

Funny cause I came close to killing myself when climbing before I was 18....motorcycling much safer...