If your job was to reduce road deaths what would you do? [Archive]

mister.koz

6th August 2009, 10:50

The problem is attitude and how do you correct that with laws? Its a tricky argument!!

I find the biggest threats on the road are ignorance, arrogance and the "i don't give a shit" attitude.

We tolerate much and so does the law, that tolerance makes people careless.

These ideas are impractical but might work in the right direction:

1: Require practical testing every couple of years including:

Advanced driving
Vision testing
Defensive driving

2: Make people who are transferring international licences sit the full licence test.
3: Make the license process and tests more comprehensive (like aussie)
4: More traffic cameras in towns and harsher penalties for things like failing to stop at a stop sign, indicating incorrectly etc etc (funding the other ideas)
5: Increase the open road speed limit to 110 and take the 10km/h tolerance away completely (like aussie)
6: Zero limit for alcohol - Zero tollerance for mind altering drugs (including strong painkillers)
7: Add demerit points to speed camera fines (like UK)

Someone said in a thread like this one "give all motorcyclists a gun, that'll increase awareness" hehe cool thought... but the implementation?

(ps, i am not flawless and i do break the rules on occasion)

vgcspares

6th August 2009, 10:52

could put the cops on a profit share so they issue lots of speeding tickets - oh oh they've done that already haven't they ?

steve_t

6th August 2009, 10:53

Hmmm... I would retire.

LOL... golden handshakes! But what about all that free travel? And money to live in your own house?

To reduce road accidents, we need to:
*Raise the driving age from 15. Frontal lobe development isn't even close to complete.
*Crack down way harder on drunk drivers.
*Make driving tests more comprehensive and make them more regular for older drivers.
*Get rid of Cheesecutters!!!!!!
*Massive advertising campaigns teaching people how to indicate at roundabouts
*Massive advertising campaigns telling people to watch for bikes
*Phase in mandatory ABS and TC for new bikes from 2012
*Improve road surfaces everywhere
*Get in line with the rest of the world and change the giveway rule to the person turning left has the right of way over the person turning right.
*Make motorcycle lanes on the motorways
*Get rid of 70km/h limit for learner bikers
*Crack down harder on idiot drivers/riders racing in the streets
*Govt subsidies for race track use
*Ban gangs under 'conspiracy to commit crime' laws

Enough for ya? :innocent: Man, I'd better get back to work!! :laugh:

hospitalfood

6th August 2009, 10:57

i very nearly went off the road 2 weeks ago due to unmarked lose metal ( unswept roadworks ) then 2 corners later saw someone that had.

then about 20 corners later went straight off the road due to to much speed, it was the only option left that did not involve pain and a damaged bike.

but yeah, most open road crashes are due to rider error / speed but there are several that happen because of unmarked lose metal, oil on road, stock truck shit on road etc.

i would up the speed limit and live and let die

Danae

6th August 2009, 10:58

Include motorcycle awareness questions in the car licence tests
As a requirement for say, restricted licence, include another practical course (like BHS) but specialising in defensive riding
Increase learner limit on motorway to at least 80k (70k is just dangerous, but we can't ban learners completely from the open road)
I would like to add motorcycle lanes but that would be a bit tough
More advertising about motorcycle awareness (TV ads, billboards, stuff on the back of buses)

Hiflyer

6th August 2009, 11:02

the problem with ATGATT is that it wont protect you at speed, of course good equipment has impact and abrasion resistant stuff but anything above 50km/h or so and its bye bye birdy.

spookytooth

6th August 2009, 11:03

Make 100 hrs riding off road part of the licence requirements

Danae

6th August 2009, 11:03

*Phase in mandatory ABS and TC for new bikes from 2012

This I disagree with...you'll get learners who'll jump on a 250 with ABS and ride like an idiot. They'll probably have no idea when they lose traction etc. Then they move onto a bigger bike, could well have no ABS, and they're fucked cos they'll come into a corner in the wet or something and lose traction etc completely because they think the bike will save them. If ABS becomes compulsory, it should be for bikes above 250cc.

*Get in line with the rest of the world and change the giveway rule to the person turning left has the right of way over the person turning right.

This would fuck everyone up...no one in NZ would catch on quick enough and you'll have mass pileups everywhere. It's a bit late for that, and NZ is a bit slow.

Plus we drive on the left side of the road ;)

Make 100 hrs riding off road part of the licence requirements

Dirtbiking should be a requirement! I've only ridden dirtbikes once but shit you learn heaps about traction and falling off.

CookMySock

6th August 2009, 11:18

What rule changes would you recommend?Implement the LAMS system immediately and tighten or abolish the exemption scheme.

Triple or quadruple penalties for dangerous driving, and suspend licenses or confiscate bikes of those doing so without a full license.

Target hell out of groups racing on public roads, eg coro loopers.

What education, training and advertising would you recommend?Compulsory motorcycle training, same as the French system.

Free track days for those so inclined, complete with advanced tuition from well-known racers. Provide opportunities for this to become "racing" of sorts.

What roading changes would you recommend?Rider safety information system for the road. Something like a tag affixed to a roadside sign, but with motorcycle-specific meaning. Riders carry a sticker or somesuch thing on their person or bike, so that they may attach it to existing signage where appropriate. Ie, a biker might narrowly avoid a dangerous oil patch or an unsignposted patch of gravel - if they feel it warranted they then ride back up the road and attach a biker-specific warning to the existing signpost. The warning labels wouldn't need to be large.

Steve

SMOKEU

6th August 2009, 11:23

take the 10km/h tolerance away completely (like aussie)

How will that work? Speedos are not accurate, especially on bikes.

mister.koz

6th August 2009, 11:29

How will that work? Speedos are not accurate, especially on bikes.

The idea is that it will make people thing about their speed more rather than roughly guessing...

alley cat

6th August 2009, 11:30

ban asains from operating a motorised vehicle.:shutup:

EJK

6th August 2009, 11:32

ban asains from operating a motorised vehicle.:shutup:

:Oi: Not ALL of em :shifty:

Headbanger

6th August 2009, 11:36

Govern all vehicles to 80km/h.

3 strikes and you lose your license for life.

2 days mandatory driver/rider training a year.

Tax petrol to $5 litre

No licence required for scooter riders as long as they attend the required 2 days training every year.

scumdog

6th August 2009, 11:37

*Get rid of Cheesecutters!!!!!!

Piss off, there are waay more dangerous things around our roads than them - how many motorcycle death have resulted from a biker hitting them?

And how many bikers crash into them whil tootling along minding their own business and riding to the conditions??

NighthawkNZ

6th August 2009, 11:39

If your job was to reduce road deaths what would you do?

Tell every one to walk... which would also make you fitter and healther and help with out health system... There would be no road rage, no rush hour stress, les Co2 and smog, more fresh air... you would save money on petrol, insurance, vehicle mainenance and you would not get run over by an idot that got his licence in a wheat bix packet, it would solve the boy racer problem, it would solve quite a few problems

We wouldn't have the need for roads to maintain so the country would save billions... you want to go to ChCh from Dunedin cool go by rail...

Of course since there is no roads and no cars we have no road accidents, no deaths from roads... so I would be out of a job in 2 seconds flat

Rockbuddy

6th August 2009, 11:40

the use of cellphones while driving will become a jailable offence

longwayfromhome

6th August 2009, 11:48

What to focus on in working on the biking road toll....

After a decade away, the most noticable thing on my return is the shocking quality of road repairs in two ways...

1. Heavy overuse of straight tar with no/little gravel, so there are large patches with slick, poor grip. This is lethal in a wet country like NZ. My point-to-point averages in NZ are distinctly lower than on similar class roads in the US. This has been the greatest disappointment since coming back...the roads may ocassionally be emptier, but you can't belt along in wet weather (a lot of the time). For the first time ever I have had cars actually gain on me in some corners in wet weather.

2. Criminal negligence and outright laziness with regard to leaving unswept gravel on repairs or if swept, then left in piles right on the verge so trucks respread it back onto the road. This is so easy to police when a contractor needs sign-off, that I have to blame the supervising authority. Those Fulton Hogan guys must be laughing all the way to the bank...From comments on this site, I think all of us have had too many nasty experiences in this regard. Also, you can't get any rhythm going in your riding when the remains/deposits of these dudes are about, its ok if riding means going fast on the straights, but if curves are a magnet...blah, rubbish!

wysper

6th August 2009, 11:56

Make 100 hrs riding off road part of the licence requirements

+1 to the above.

I believe that the most effective way would be to to train the riders.

You can put ABS and all that flash stuff on bikes, make perfect roads, signpost everything accurately and correctly, make all drivers aware of bikes etc
But I reckon the biggest cause of motorcycle rider deaths is the rider on the bike.
Their skill set, attitude, understanding of what they are doing etc.

So my one would be just train the rider. Not just licence them. But TRAIN them.
Maybe a combination of Track days, trail rides, road riding and awareness.

my 2c

Tunahunter

6th August 2009, 12:00

Ban the use of cars

SMOKEU

6th August 2009, 12:05

Shaun

6th August 2009, 12:11

For a start, I would reduce the cause of traffic flow issues on the Auckland Motorway, Causing people to pop a fuse and drive badly and aggressively, by putting up a LOT of signs in the 27 different languages of the dam forign people living up that way that would REMIND them of the legal driving rules are ie

If NOT passing, get the -uck out of the Right lane:sunny:

And re write the road rules to this below

Trucks to NEVER pass, and ALWAYS to stay in the left lane

This happening alone, would probally reduce deaths, and deffinatley help with the Auckland traffic flow issues?

So reducung traffic issues, will help stop people blowing fuses, causing bad dangerous driving

Usarka

6th August 2009, 12:11

Reduce the number of vehicles on the road.

Simple, ATGATT.

Impractical. It works for helmets because there's a worldwide standard for safety, so we can say they need to be dot or snell certified.

To implement for atgatt you'd need to certify every piece of motorcycle clothing. Otherwise who's to say whether the jeans I'm wearing are ok or not....

Swoop

6th August 2009, 12:15

If NOT passing, get the -uck out of the Left lane
They already do this. The left lane is normally empty.

Shaun

6th August 2009, 12:19

They already do this. The left lane is normally empty.

WOOPS:gob:

White Boots

6th August 2009, 12:25

Lots and lots of sand run off`s

SMOKEU

6th August 2009, 12:37

And start heavily targeting people who drive slowly just for the sake of it and don't pull over to let people pass.

nosebleed

6th August 2009, 12:42

the problem with ATGATT is that it wont protect you at speed, of course good equipment has impact and abrasion resistant stuff but anything above 50km/h or so and its bye bye birdy.

Aye? bye bye which birdie?

Are suggesting that a bin at +50kph with ATGATT = instant death? coz if you are then the fact I'm typing this is proof that you are wrong.

As for the original Q:
Compulsory motorcycle riding for the first 6 months to EVERYONE getting a new licence. Be it on a scooter or a bike, doesn't matter, the first 6 months on the road is on 2 wheels.

And since my own income will be based on a ratio of motorcycles to injuries, then I'll reclassify makes/models/sizes of bikes in order to fudge those figures... just like having less Unemployment stats because they shifted numbers on to Sickness Benefits and vice versa.

Shaun

6th August 2009, 13:04

Aye? bye bye which birdie?

Are suggesting that a bin at +50kph with ATGATT = instant death? coz if you are then the fact I'm typing this is proof that you are wrong.

As for the original Q:
Compulsory motorcycle riding for the first 6 months to EVERYONE getting a new licence. Be it on a scooter or a bike, doesn't matter, the first 6 months on the road is on 2 wheels.

And since my own income will be based on a ratio of motorcycles to injuries, then I'll reclassify makes/models/sizes of bikes in order to fudge those figures... just like having less Unemployment stats because they shifted numbers on to Sickness Benefits and vice versa.

To Quote you

As for the original Q:
Compulsory motorcycle riding for the first 6 months to EVERYONE getting a new licence. Be it on a scooter or a bike, doesn't matter, the first 6 months on the road is on 2 wheels.

That is the very best way of making all a lot safer out there.
'

mashman

6th August 2009, 13:05

make it compulsory for every bike to come with one of these!!!

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=104947

AllanB

6th August 2009, 13:21

If you agree with the saying 'speed kills' then put speed restricters on everything. With huge fines if tampered with.

Oh say 130 tops maybe to give a bit of lee-way for passing (even though you are not meant to exceed 100 when passing).

Although I personally don't want to see the above I would be very interested to see if the national road death count was lowered if this was in place.

Being a resourceful lot, I'm pretty sure we could still find inventive ways to maim each other while restricted in speed.

At the end of the day we are a aggressive lot of drivers in NZ and the existing licensing system does nothing in the way of on-going training.
I'd probably fail my license if I had to sit it again tomorrow as I suspect would a high percentage of us.

imdying

6th August 2009, 13:28

Get rid of these stupid laws and bring sensible ones in. This is a good example:
If someone is doing a burnout in a stationary position with 1 or 2 wheels spinning, then they can get their car automatically impounded for 28 days, a court appearance and 3 months license disqualification with a hefty fine and impound fees. Yet, if someone drives at 130kmh on the wrong side of the road around a blind corner, all they get is a fine and a few demerits. No loss of license, no court appearance. How can they justify that?

Actually, that's a shite example... Whilst in both cases it is up to the discretion of the officer who sees it, generally the scenario you describe would get the driver either careless misuse of a motorvehicle, with a fine and a disqualification, or dangerous, with fine, instant disqualification, and a court appearance... I'm not sure if they impound for dangerous these days though?

The Pastor

6th August 2009, 13:33

i'd ban all cars myself

Flip

6th August 2009, 13:56

ManDownUnder

6th August 2009, 13:58

Identify and replace anything that predictably hurts motorcyclists. Cheese cutters come to mind.

Make off road riding training compulsory.

Make leathers, helmets and gloves compulsory

Ban motorycles

vgcspares

6th August 2009, 14:09

look through this thread it's obvious why we have speed limits (ineffective as they are) cos any other approach is way too contentious

mynameis

6th August 2009, 14:12

I'd ban all motorbikes, :done: simple easy :lol:

Marmoot

6th August 2009, 14:26

Restricted License and Full License should have a milleage conditions instead of time-based conditions. Riders should only be able to move up rank after at least 10,000 kms. Not 6 months of having license and no bike.

breakaway

6th August 2009, 14:31

I'd get rid of all speed limits but keep other rules.

That way the useless drivers/riders will sort themselves out and only the best will survive.

Tink

6th August 2009, 14:32

+1 to the above.

I believe that the most effective way would be to to train the riders.

You can put ABS and all that flash stuff on bikes, make perfect roads, signpost everything accurately and correctly, make all drivers aware of bikes etc
But I reckon the biggest cause of motorcycle rider deaths is the rider on the bike.
Their skill set, attitude, understanding of what they are doing etc.

So my one would be just train the rider. Not just licence them. But TRAIN them.
Maybe a combination of Track days, trail rides, road riding and awareness.

my 2c

I would be in to learn some trail rides... its gotta be softer than landing on crap tarmac!

For a start, I would reduce the cause of traffic flow issues on the Auckland Motorway, Causing people to pop a fuse and drive badly and aggressively, by putting up a LOT of signs in the 27 different languages of the dam forign people living up that way that would REMIND them of the legal driving rules are ie

If NOT passing, get the -uck out of the Right lane:sunny:

And re write the road rules to this below

Trucks to NEVER pass, and ALWAYS to stay in the left lane

This happening alone, would probally reduce deaths, and deffinatley help with the Auckland traffic flow issues?

So reducung traffic issues, will help stop people blowing fuses, causing bad dangerous driving

I was taught to drive the english way, polite, stay left, its called the overtaking lane, no trucks or busses in the right lane, and flash them if they are going to slow... 70km (right lane only)... mmm... and I always give way to bikes... but I still get irritated.... multicultural country as we are need to have 1. Full license for foreigners, first thing my danish hub did, went down the motorway the wrong way in a blardy mini!!! 2. Education, drivers about bikes, using mirrors, indicators, and bigger fines... never had a accident in 24 years touch wood... but I have been shit scared quite a few times.

Hiflyer

6th August 2009, 14:33

Aye? bye bye which birdie?

Are suggesting that a bin at +50kph with ATGATT = instant death? coz if you are then the fact I'm typing this is proof that you are wrong.

no Im not. I know of a couple of people that are living proof

all i'm saying is that it's only effective to a certain point....

SPman

6th August 2009, 15:02

Identify and replace anything that predictably hurts motorcyclists.
Other motorcyclists????

Swoop

6th August 2009, 15:13

Remove all road rules.
Remove all road markings and signage.

Permit everyone to ride/drive to the conditions they encounter.
If you kill another motorist, you are punished to the fullest (death penalty, forced to watch Shortarse St/Continuation St, etc).

nosebleed

6th August 2009, 16:28

no Im not. I know of a couple of people that are living proof

all i'm saying is that it's only effective to a certain point....

Do you guys even read what you write? Or just bash away increasing post count?
Are these friends living proof that they died at 50x kph?

You are wrong. You said ATGATT fails at 50 kph. I crashed at well past that and here i am.

ready4whatever

6th August 2009, 16:36

change attitudes. not sure how

FastBikeGear

6th August 2009, 17:17

:Oi: Not ALL of em :shifty:
Ban EJK from a bike ...Ive seen him ride!

FastBikeGear

6th August 2009, 17:23

Reduce the number of vehicles on the road.

Impractical. It works for helmets because there's a worldwide standard for safety, so we can say they need to be dot or snell certified.

To implement for atgatt you'd need to certify every piece of motorcycle clothing. Otherwise who's to say whether the jeans I'm wearing are ok or not....

Why not certify boots, gloves, jackets and make them compulsory? There are already CE certifications for body armour. Sure it will put the price up but I am getting sick of hearing about losers riding scooters with running shoes and being on ACC for weeks with plates in their ankles (mike you know who your are)

mossy1200

6th August 2009, 17:29

Full approved riding gear compulsory.
Graduated licence based on KW not cc.

Mystic13

6th August 2009, 17:30

Less motorcycle death per year per 10,000 riders.

How would you go about it?

Rightly or wrongly people respond to punishment and reward. People also have a sense of fairness.

Clean up road side hazards.
Clean up poor roads.
Improve rider training and testing.
Increase fines and add new ones.
Campaigns around driver practises and behaviour.

What rule changes would you recommend?

- Age and system stays largely unchanged.
- Maximum speed raised to 100kmph.
- Larger bikes be approved as per Oz etc.
- Practical testing to include skills that apply to the control of a motorcycle. Such as RRRS programme. Current tests don't teach or test counter steering, braking etc. These tests need to be done by motorcycle riders. The level of practical skill needs to be tested at each stage in terms of motorcycle control.
- introduce fines for not moving left on a multilane road. as per Oz.
- introduce fines for holding up the flow of traffic, either by a/ not moving over when there are "x" number of vehicles cued behind you or in passing lanes.
- introduce fines for vehicles that go slow on single lane roads say 80kmph but then speed up to over 100 when a passing lane occurs. It's reckless. If you're going slow holding up traffic then you should maintain your speed at a passing lane or slow so cars can pass you easily. Down country I eperienced a car doing 80k's in the single lane then speeding to 120k's in the passing lane. If we all obeyed the law then you'd never pass these people and be forced to do pass moves in more dangerous places.
- more serious fines and vehicle seizure for drink driving.
- significantly increase fines and seizure of vehicles for serious speed infringement.
(if you want to go real fast go to the track)
- actually fine people don't indicate for 3 seconds and fine ever more those that close the gap.
- big fines for at fault drivers in crashes, particularly serious crashes.
- big fines for crashes while driving where the driver was otherwise occupied.

If you know you could face a fine for crashing into the car in front in wet conditions will you leave more room?

What education, training and advertising would you recommend?
- Better rider education as per RRRS at least.
- ad campaigns around moving over and slowing down if you're going slow in a passing lane.
- ad campaign about sharing the road and letting people in so we all get home safely.
Ad campaigns at present target speed and drink offenders. They should target poor driving habits, this mentality of this is "my road" and you're obstructing me get home mentality. We share the road.
- Serious penalties for vehicular manslaughter. if you drive a 2 tonne missile you need to be responsible with that.

What roading changes would you recommend?
- Investigate the recent poor tar used. And stop it's use.
- Repair all sections of tar bleed.
- Encourage motorists to call in on road hazards to an 0800 number that goes to the specific council. This may be loose metal, materials etc.
Councils and transit are negligent in road maintenance to the point that it is unsafe for road users. Putting up "slippery when wet" signs because of excessive tar bleed is gross negligence.
- Horizontal boards sheets barriers placed below all armco barriers to protect motorcycle riders from injury. The same foe cheesecutters or better still their removal.
- Removal or cover for all hazards for the outside of a corner.

That's about it.

scumdog

6th August 2009, 17:32

I'd get rid of all speed limits but keep other rules.

That way the useless drivers/riders will sort themselves out

By possibly imbedding themselves into the side of you motorbike as you ride past?

Or will there be rule against that....:shifty:

Hitcher

6th August 2009, 17:35

I would remove safety belts, driver's air bags, collapsible steering columns and the like from all motor vehicles. I would instead make it mandatory for a Dirty Great Spike(TM) to be affixed to the centre of steering wheels, stopping about 10cm short of the driver's throat.

I would remove all road signage, including that Stop and Give Way at intersections nonsense that apparently troubles so many, as well as all restrictions on speed. There would be no formal regulation as to which side of the road should be driven on, instead I would leave that to be negotiated in good faith by road users as necessary.

I would encourage people to drive whilst pissed, preferably using a cellphone at the same time.

Meanwhile I would go and lie on a beach somewhere for about two weeks, while road users became used to the concept of taking responsibility for their own actions and learning how to drive.

Winston001

6th August 2009, 17:38

Govern all vehicles to 80km/h.

3 strikes and you lose your license for life.

2 days mandatory driver/rider training a year.

No licence required for scooter riders as long as they attend the required 2 days training every year.

Wot he said. :done:

Seriously? First I'd have to put aside the fact I ride a motorcycle. In fact sell it so my decisions wouldn't be biased.

The best law is that which is easiest to understand and put into practise. All of the excellent ideas about training days, grades of licences, certified ATGATT etc require an enormous bureaucracy. Do any of us really need more red tape?

So governing motorcycles to say, 120kph is logical and simple. Caught going faster - bike forfeited. Gone.

Do I want this? Certainly not. But it answers the question.

jellywrestler

6th August 2009, 17:42

i very nearly went off the road 2 weeks ago due to unmarked lose metal ( unswept roadworks ) then 2 corners later saw someone that had.

so what did they say when you rang *555 and alerted them to this problem so the next rider may not have to have the same issues as you did?

Hiflyer

6th August 2009, 17:56

Do you guys even read what you write? Or just bash away increasing post count?
Are these friends living proof that they died at 50x kph?

You are wrong. You said ATGATT fails at 50 kph. I crashed at well past that and here i am.

READ WHAT I POST!!

You asked if I was saying that a crash over 50kph = instant death and I said no I'm not and that I know a couple of people who are living proof of that (the fact that it doesnt mean instant death)

I never said ATGATT fails at over 50,

Usarka

6th August 2009, 18:35

Why not certify boots, gloves, jackets and make them compulsory? There are already CE certifications for body armour. Sure it will put the price up but I am getting sick of hearing about losers riding scooters with running shoes and being on ACC for weeks with plates in their ankles (mike you know who your are)

How would you make this work?

There is no way that little old NZ is going to convince the likes of Alpinestars to certify their gear for such a small market.

The alternative is to have a bureaucrat certify any new gear coming into NZ. Which will mean extremely limited selection, late arrivals of new products while they go through the hoops, and anything imported that's not "official" will be illegal to use.

jellywrestler

6th August 2009, 18:39

pretty simple really, put cameras in all the cop cars so they can get filmed evidence and they will spread their attention to offences other than speed and it will save a lot of defended court hearings time and money removing the "he said she said" element of court fights.
also be good to see the conduct of cops and offenders in police chases.

Katman

6th August 2009, 18:42

The best law is that which is easiest to understand and put into practise. All of the excellent ideas about training days, grades of licences, certified ATGATT etc require an enormous bureaucracy. Do any of us really need more red tape?

And that is why I have always said that changing motorcyclists attitudes is at the very heart of the solution.

No more red tape + lower accident rate = we all win.

scumdog

6th August 2009, 18:48

SixPackBack

6th August 2009, 18:50

=cJ=

6th August 2009, 19:01

rocketman1

6th August 2009, 19:18

I think that the best way to educate people (bikers) is first hand experience.
I guess those that have alot of experience, are the ones that are still alive, as a result they have experienced more situations, and are likely to stay alive longer because they are Street / Road wise, and so it goes on.

I have read from NZ govt stats that 48% of bike deaths happen on corners.
This would be a good place to start. But I doubt you will change things even if you educate everyone personally, because unless you have seriously stuffed up on a corner enough to think I'm lucky to be alive, you probably havent learnt anything from it.

Like bringing up kids, if you dont let them climb a tree they will never know how hard the ground is if they dont fall. Once they fall they become alot more cautious next time.

The trouble is experience comes to late for some, dead bikers don't spread the safety message do they?

I think by riding off road bikes you get a good perspective of alot of areas in road riding that are improved.

You could get a list of why most people on KBr have crashed or nearly crashed, and what they have learnt from it.
Then replicate on video they same thing happening, with a stunt rider, distribute the message ....somehow.
I Hope, I would learn from it.

NDORFN

6th August 2009, 19:32

I would fix the fucken roads.

The Stranger

6th August 2009, 19:37

Ban right hand bends.

Ixion

6th August 2009, 19:39

Ban all bends. Roads should have turntables like railway tracks.

Ixion

6th August 2009, 19:40

If every corner had a flag marshal to signal if there were any hazards, fast riders would be at less risk of falling off.

mstriumph

6th August 2009, 19:56

Interesting thread Tony - thanks :yes:

I would make it mandatory for folks to have a motorcycle licence and be the registered owner of a bike for three years before they were even permitted to sit for a car licence

benefit 1 ... Darwin's theory
benefit 2 ... Those that DID survive would automatically be 'bike aware' and, therefore, much better drivers.

I would deter the use of those massive 4 wheel drive monstrosities by:-

a] introducing a seperate driver-licensing category for them, with seperate training, wait periods and practical testing
b] banning their use in all built up areas
c] doubling their vehicle-licence fee

I would raise the top speed limit to at least 120kph and introduce a MINIMUM limit of 100kph on the open road..... same penalties to apply for driving too slow as for driving too fast.

Bikes would be permitted a limit of 150kph where safe ... with penalties of dangerous driving to apply for having a speed-related accident where it WASN'T safe

All police to spend at least a year on bike patrol as part of their qualification.

:sunny:

Winston001

6th August 2009, 19:59

And that is why I have always said that changing motorcyclists attitudes is at the very heart of the solution.

No more red tape + lower accident rate = we all win.

Probably the simplest solution would be to remove motorcycles. :gob: Leave scooters up to 250cc. :bye:

Winston001

6th August 2009, 20:08

The concept of diminishing returns means the earnest suggestions given so far involve enormous bureaucracy and cost. Spend $100 - save 4 lives. Spend $200 - save 1 further life. Spend $800 - save 1 more. But whatever we do, folk are still going to die.

The longterm answer for motorised transport lies in technology and removing control from human beings. Wire down the centre of the road and your car/bike follows it at a specified off-set distance. No head-on collisions. Speed and braking are all controlled by computers with emergency over-ride. Manual control allowed up to 15k to allow manoeuvring and passing tractors etc. :D

I confidently predict this will be standard in 60 years or sooner. Mercedes and BMW are already experimenting with it.

Tony

6th August 2009, 20:16

Piss off, there are waay more dangerous things around our roads than them - how many motorcycle death have resulted from a biker hitting them?

Scumdog I am curious what is the answer to this question?
is this statistic collected?

Ixion

6th August 2009, 20:17

..
The longterm answer for motorised transport lies in technology and removing control from human beings. Wire down the centre of the road and your car/bike follows it at a specified off-set distance. No head-on collisions. Speed and braking are all controlled by computers with emergency over-ride.

Those who work in IT are all rolling on the floor with laughter at the inherent contradiction in that statement.

FastBikeGear

6th August 2009, 20:48

I have read from NZ govt stats that 48% of bike deaths happen on corners.
This would be a good place to start.

Why not start where the other 52% of accidents happen instead?

Tony

6th August 2009, 20:55

OK here's my favourites.

You will notice that I have borrowed many of these ideas from KBers like mystic13

What rule changes would you recommend?

1.ATGATT. Minimum requirement to meet one of the many standards such as the European PPE standard for motorcycle clothing that covers footwear, gloves and other items of clothing. (http://www.roadsafety.mccofnsw.org.au/a/93.html)
2.Make people who are transferring international licences sit the full licence test.
3.More traffic cameras in towns and harsher penalties for things like failing to stop at a stop sign, indicating incorrectly etc etc (funding the other ideas)
4.Crack down way harder and faster on drunk drivers.
5.Get rid of the dangerous 70K learners speed limit immediately.
6.Adopt Australian power to weight limits immediately for learner riders.
7.Limit drivers under the age of 20 to unmodified cars under a power to weight limit of 100hp per tonne.
8.Make all traffic officers do six months on as a bike cop in their first 18 months on the job.
9.Let it be known that all non hands free cell phone use will be policed as a careless driving offence – doesn't require new legislation or delays.
10.Fine bad driving practice e.g. following too close not indicating 3 seconds before hand, etc. not just speed. Put cameras in all police cars and bikes as per Jellywrestler's suggestion
11.Find drivers for driving over 15km below the speed limit in good road conditions – if they or their vehicles are not competent to drive at the speed limit they shouldn't be on the road.
12.As well as disqualifying drivers/riders for excessive demerit points seize their vehicles and sell them and put the money into road safety funds.
13.Make it compulsory for the Minister of Transport to ride a bike to work 10 days a year. (OK this is a little tongue in cheek, but it would be good)

What education, training and advertising would you recommend?

1.TV campaign to get more motorcyclists to ring in loose gravel, and stuff that has fallen off trucks to 555. Fine road workers for repair left in unsafe conditions.
2.Educational TV campaigns around driver practises and behaviour, indicating, roundabout indicating rules, staying in left hand lane unless passing and defensive driving techniques.
3.Sponsor 3 track days with instructors for riders and cagers (Remove the excuse that you have no where to enjoy your vehicles performance and learn something at the same time)
4.Require practical testing every five years including:

Advanced control test braking and sliding on skid pan. Prove that you can drive around some cones within a set time and stop your vehicle within a set distance on a dry and slippery surface. (Basically a grass or tar seal gymkhana test just like the car clubs have been doing in New Zealand for years. Make this challenging and fail some people)
Compulsory 1 day off road riding course with certified instructor for learners (no test required)
Vision testing
Road code knowledge (Most people who have had a license for a few years are blissfully unaware of the rules.
Defensive driving test (as per many current defensive driving course tests and evaluations)

What roading changes would you recommend?

5.Replace cheesecutters with more bike friendly barriers
6.Fine road workers for leaving loose gravel on the roads
7.Investigate the recent poor tar used. And stop it's use.

Vehicle safety recommendations

Hitcher I couldn't resist adding your brilliant suggestion to my list “I would remove safety belts, driver's air bags, collapsible steering columns and the like from all motor vehicles. I would instead make it mandatory for a Dirty Great Spike(TM) to be affixed to the centre of steering wheels, stopping about 10cm short of the driver's throat.”

Conquiztador

6th August 2009, 20:59

The easiest way to reduce road deaths is to make all drive and ride off road. Remove the roads! :Punk:

Winston001

6th August 2009, 21:11

dmc

6th August 2009, 21:45

OK here's my favourites.

8.Make all traffic officers do six months on as a bike cop in their first 18 months on the job.
13.Make it compulsory for the Minister of Transport to ride a bike to work 10 days a year. (OK this is a little tongue in cheek, but it would be good)

Only problem with those two is you are trying to lower the road toll not increase it.

phaedrus

6th August 2009, 21:47

Those who work in IT are all rolling on the floor with laughter at the inherent contradiction in that statement.

laughter, i think fear might be a more appropriate response.
Cue canned IBM support response: 'You need to update your firmware'

mister.koz

6th August 2009, 22:48

Those who work in IT are all rolling on the floor with laughter at the inherent contradiction in that statement.

LINUX computers mind, none of this Windoze stuff. :D

Ix - you are too cynical. Just look at technology's march. Watches were accurate to 5/min a month when I was a kid. Today 5/sec month is normal. And look at toasters - perfect every.........hmmmm........see what you mean......:blink:

Definately linux!

Windows: you are having and accident, please install drivers for airbag control system.

--- bluescreen ---

Na, i reckon stop "improving" cars so much, i saw on topgear that mercedes have an auto-braking system, no matter how far you have your foot up it, the car WILL NOT crash into someone in front...

Jeez talk about breeding lazyness and apathy - we want people more aware and focused, if they can't focus on gears, steering, indicators, braking, throttle, the right side of the road AND other drivers/riders then they shouldn't have a licence....

NighthawkNZ

6th August 2009, 23:15

Cue canned IBM support response: 'You need to update your firmware'

:killingmesounds fimilar

chef

6th August 2009, 23:41

ban cars from the road, and boi racars. problem solved :)

PrincessBandit

7th August 2009, 07:49

I'd remove all freight off the road to rail;
Make similar restrictions on car drivers i.e. restrict engine size and have Learners for their class 1 restricted to 70 kph as well;
Compulsory resitting of full license every 5 years, but bring the cost down to make it affordable;
None of this "staying on my L for 10 years 'cos I can't be arsed moving up to the next level" business - allow a period of grace outside the minimum time period to allow for illness or other such blips in the timeframe - and make each level more comprehensive;
Defensive driving courses compulsory for all drivers, and a similar such course for all riders to be sat during the course of their L stage, before the bad habits set in (hopefully they haven't already);
and...

Maximum crack down on license breaches.

p.s. I'd also ban those bloody mini bikes that you see idiot youfs riding on public roads - no helmets or boots etc., no visibility to drivers as they're so low to the road. My guess is they're not legal for road anyway so instant confiscation. No need for fine, confiscate and sell; money to go into "the great fund". If rider is not the owner, too bad - just like crushing boi racer cars.

Usarka

7th August 2009, 07:54

9.Let it be known that all non hands free cell phone use will be policed as a careless driving offence – doesn't require new legislation or delays.

Hands free are just as dangerous as hand held.

Why only police half the problem?????? Are you being given backhanders by the telcos?

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/07/nhtsa-ny-times-cell-phone-driving-dangers-study.html
http://psycnet.apa.org/?fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1037/1076-898X.9.2.119
http://psycnet.apa.org/?fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1037/1076-898X.9.1.23
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118998806/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Travel/story?id=8135393&page=1
etc
etc
etc

PrincessBandit

7th August 2009, 07:56

Hands free are just as dangerous as hand held.

Why only police half the problem??????

How is hands free different from hands held when you have voice activation to receive or decline calls? Hang on, I meant that how much different is hands free to having a conversation with a passenger?

James Deuce

7th August 2009, 08:16

Ban any form of transport except walking.

Enforce telecommuting for non-productive, non-physical jobs.

Increase the budget for research in teleportation.

gammaguy

7th August 2009, 08:17

repeat after me until you are sick of it:

COMPULSORY DRIVER TRAINING

COMPULSORY DRIVER TRAINING

etc...............................:done:

Usarka

7th August 2009, 08:28

How is hands free different from hands held when you have voice activation to receive or decline calls? Hang on, I meant that how much different is hands free to having a conversation with a passenger?

It's the conversation that's the distraction.

The difference between a phone call and a passenger is the amount of attention required. A caller can't see what's going on so the driver has to keep the conversation flowing. A passenger can easily see that the driver is concentrating because of a specific hazard like changing lanes and doesn't expect immediate feedback.

That's not to say passengers and other distractions aren't a hazard....

davereid

7th August 2009, 08:30

Sadly, all the ATGATT ideas are doomed to fail.

It comes from from the sad misconception that it will save your life !

Gear is great, really great at avoiding abrasion, and its a great idea to wear it.

But I have met (usually young newbies) who seem to credit safety gear with magic powers.

They put on a helmet, now they are safe.

Sadly, safety gear, including helmets saves lives only in a very very very small percentage of motorcycle accidents.

Solutions to the road toll have to focus on reducing crashes, not surviving those you have !

PrincessBandit

7th August 2009, 08:37

It's the conversation that's the distraction.

...
That's not to say passengers and other distractions aren't a hazard....

Ban passengers!

No, no I've got it: make everyone ride motorbikes, and ban blue tooth and helmet communication devices so while on the road no one can talk to anyone else.

Usarka

7th August 2009, 08:39

Jimmy D has it. Ban transport.

Any body travelling at velocity in the vicinity of another object is in danger of dying.

Katman

7th August 2009, 09:11

NighthawkNZ

7th August 2009, 09:34

Ban any form of transport except walking.

Enforce telecommuting for non-productive, non-physical jobs.

Increase the budget for research in teleportation.

WellI did say something similar... would save us billions

Swoop

7th August 2009, 11:54

If every corner had a flag marshal to signal if there were any hazards, fast riders would be at less risk of falling off.
Like that will help gsxr riders...:scooter:

Usarka

7th August 2009, 12:30

I spent four years in some of the most congested traffic in the world with a radio slung over my shoulder and having a despatcher chanting in my ear "Where now, where now.....".

Telecommunication doesn't need to be a huge distraction when driving/riding. Many of us just allow it to be.

Radio comms is different to telephone, it's not instantaneous - you expect delays in replying. It's actually well suited to driving/flying/riding. Over unger.

FastBikeGear

7th August 2009, 14:25

Hands free are just as dangerous as hand held.

Why only police half the problem?????? Are you being given backhanders by the telcos?

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/07/nhtsa-ny-times-cell-phone-driving-dangers-study.html
http://psycnet.apa.org/?fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1037/1076-898X.9.2.119
http://psycnet.apa.org/?fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1037/1076-898X.9.1.23
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118998806/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Travel/story?id=8135393&page=1
etc
etc
etc

Very interesting links Usarka thanks. can't say I am suprised at the reported conclusions.

jim.cox

7th August 2009, 16:47

Solutions to the road toll have to focus on reducing crashes, not surviving those you have !

Righto - let's ban crashing then :)

SPman

7th August 2009, 17:27

Increase the budget for research in teleportation.
Teleportation!
I've seen "The Fly"!
I think I'd prefer traffic crashes!

swbarnett

7th August 2009, 20:12

Resign. There are more important problems. Ones that have some basis in reality.

mstriumph

7th August 2009, 21:31

Scumdog I am curious what is the answer to this question?
is this statistic collected? in Australia it'd be kanagaroos ... ?

bsasuper

7th August 2009, 23:02

Do what they do in finland, It takes 3 years to get a licence.

Milts

7th August 2009, 23:07

Probably been said but I'd put a heavily subsidised racetrack near every major centre. Run dedicated training courses and also have it open 24 hours a day for if people just want to get out and ride/drive - it would remove a lot of the urge for people to speed on the public roads.

Oh or just remove every safty measure and let nature sort itself out.

Sable

7th August 2009, 23:50

I'd kill every single one of my workmates. I'd butcher them, scatter their body parts around and hang their entrails off trees like Christmas lights. They won't die on the road then

nosebleed

8th August 2009, 07:32

READ WHAT I POST!!

You asked if I was saying that a crash over 50kph = instant death and I said no I'm not and that I know a couple of people who are living proof of that (the fact that it doesnt mean instant death)

I never said ATGATT fails at over 50,

I read your reply of "no I'm not" as being a response to my last line which was "you are wrong..."
I never thought you were replying to the "instant death" comment as that was somewhat obviously tongue-in-cheek

At the risk of repeating myself...

the problem with ATGATT is that it wont protect you at speed, of course good equipment has impact and abrasion resistant stuff but anything above 50km/h or so and its bye bye birdy.

scumdog

8th August 2009, 08:57

Scumdog I am curious what is the answer to this question?
is this statistic collected?

Just ask ant anti-cheesecutter on KB, they'll be able to tell you..:wait:

Pixie

8th August 2009, 10:28

Easy, not PC,but ban one ethnic group from driving.
You check the stats if you don't believe me.

And I'm not refering to asians

Pixie

8th August 2009, 10:38

Every vehicle (including bikes) to have airbags fitted with steel spikes.

Everyone now drives really carefully

Hiflyer

8th August 2009, 23:50

I read your reply of "no I'm not" as being a response to my last line which was "you are wrong..."
I never thought you were replying to the "instant death" comment as that was somewhat obviously tongue-in-cheek

At the risk of repeating myself...

haha damn misunderstandings, what I meant was it wont save you all the time,

It will obviously help but you get hit the wring way and ut's bye bye birdie which is what I meant

YellowDog

9th August 2009, 07:51

The answer to the question on this thread is to start from the young riders/drivers.

The older ones are too set in their ways to change.

The basic requirements to be able to take a lethal weapon on the road are not tough enough.

Maki

10th August 2009, 10:43

The thing that sticks out most to me, and other people I have talked who have experience driving in other countries to is dangerous overtaking. Overtaking where there is insufficient visibility is extremely dangerous and there should be a campaign/crackdown to stop that behavior.

I would make it a criminal offense to spill diesel on the road and not mark the area and arrange to clean up the mess.

I would restrict police chases. How many road deaths happen as a result of these?

I crack down on hard on those who drive under the influence of mind altering substances and those who drive with their attention fixed on a cell phone.

MarkH

10th August 2009, 15:03

Probably the simplest solution would be to remove motorcycles. :gob: Leave scooters up to 250cc. :bye:

Surely you mean scooters up to 400cc?

MarkH

10th August 2009, 15:05

I meant that how much different is hands free to having a conversation with a passenger?

Same thing - passengers should shut the fuck up and let the driver concentrate while guiding a tonne & a half of metal & glass at 100kph - for the sake of everyone in & out of the vehicle.

SPman

10th August 2009, 16:01

Do what they do in finland, It takes 3 years to get a licence.
Shit - is their postal system That bad!

Shaun

10th August 2009, 16:23

Mount a spike in the middle of the stearing wheel, I Gaurantee all drivers slow down

duckonin

10th August 2009, 20:32

the use of cellphones while driving will become a jailable offence

Now that would make the roads almost empty, we would have to use Auckland as the jail to house the offenders,the bright side is most trucks would be off the road also...:done:

NDORFN

10th August 2009, 20:36

I don't use my cellphone when I'm driving for my OWN safety.

mister.koz

11th August 2009, 08:56

I don't use my cellphone when I'm driving for my OWN safety.

Good way to be.

1wheel riot

11th August 2009, 19:27

i would change the licenseing so that you had to do a 2 or 3 day corse if you pass you get to ride with restricted rules and and you can go for you full the next day but you have to do anather 2 or 3 day corse to prove you can handil a bike. and every five years you have to go and do a 1 day corse or your licence is revoced. because most deths are kids that should of never got there lerners and people that are 40 or 50 that use to ride and are just geting back in to it and are trying to keep up with the yung guys.

PirateJafa

12th August 2009, 13:42

Mount a spike in the middle of the stearing wheel, I Gaurantee all drivers slow down

Oooo, eating a good kebab whilst driving. I like your thinking.

oldrider

12th August 2009, 13:49

Ask yourself this question:

If there were no rules or laws at all, how much differently would you ride your bike from the way you ride it now?

For myself, there would be very little change!

I endeavour to ride as safely as I can now, for my bike, for me and my passenger and with consideration for other road users ETC.

Speed is regulated in accordance with the above.

Currently :Police: are regarded as another roadside hazard to observe, avoid and negotiate safely past, mainly because they work for unrealistic employers! You and me!

Slyer

12th August 2009, 14:05

Hinny

22nd August 2009, 21:54

Available evidence shows increasing speed limits results in lower road tolls.
Vigorous policing of speed limits and increased use of speed cameras result in higher road tolls.
Given this evidence I think there is a fairly simple remedy.

Tony

23rd August 2009, 14:58

Tony

23rd August 2009, 15:09

I am guessing that one of the problems is that many drivers are not alert to what is going on around them on the road.

I think one of the problems is that drivers are numbed at the wheel of modern cars. If your driving on the open road in a modern vehicle you pretty much only have to steer the thing and do the occassional braking and accellerating.

When I ride my bike I am constantly kept attentive by debri on the road, car drivers antics, my vulnerability and the need to find the right cornering line that I need to keep attentive.

I've done a fair mileage in the last two days driving a 7 tonne truck. I realised that it's also easy to stay alert driving this vehicle. To get it through corners at open road speed and maintain momentum (because lost speed takes so long to get back and I don't want to hold up other drivers) I need to actually 'drive' the vehicle through corners.

What do I mean by 'drive' through corners? I need to pick the best line. I need to brake in the best possible place. I need to transfer weight to the front wheels at the moment I begin turn in to get the best turn in, etc.

In modern cars I don't need to do any of this and I don't need to watch way up the road, etc. This means I can let my mind drift on to other things not associated with driving.

Let's mandate 165 crossplys on all cars.

Ixion

23rd August 2009, 15:13

'S'obvious, really, idden it?

If you want to reduce road deaths, when there's a crash, just drag the victims off the road into the bushes and let them die there. Ain't a road death then, is it?

sAsLEX

23rd August 2009, 15:56

I would hold someone accountable for the absolute crap standard of road surfaces we have in New Zealand.

I would create a minimum standard/utilise a standard for all roads built/repaired.

I would not utilise road side barriers that have been banned elsewhere in the world.

I would not yellow line for the sake of it, as they are there to indicate a hazard that might no be apparent, not to reduce the road toll as they are blanketely used today.

I would refocus the anti speeding focus and spending.

cold comfort

23rd August 2009, 16:12

Hinny can you quote a source reference for these interesting comments?

"Scared to Death, The Anatomy of a Very Dangerous Phenomenon" by Christopher Booker and Richard North. Australian stats showed a paradoxical INCREASE in road traffic crash/death with the introduction of speed restriction/policing.

sAsLEX

23rd August 2009, 16:39

"Scared to Death, The Anatomy of a Very Dangerous Phenomenon" by Christopher Booker and Richard North. Australian stats showed a paradoxical INCREASE in road traffic crash/death with the introduction of speed restriction/policing.

Raising of the speed limit on some US roads also resulted in few crashes and deaths.

But lets not let the facts get in the way of a policy they have been spouting for years.

Hinny

24th August 2009, 08:12

Of the 40 states that raised the limit in the USA there was a three to one reduction in the road toll.
This reduction was not mirrored in those states that kept to 55mph.
There are a myriad of reasons suggested as to why this perceived paradox occurs.

Tony's comments on the attention needed to drive a truck could be the same sort of thing that keeps drivers attentive when driving faster.

Of note is the Australian Northern Territories experience.
The imposition of a speed limit and active policing of that limit with cameras and the Speed Kills policy adoption. Result: a 50% increase in road deaths.

It is inappropriate speed for the conditions that causes crashes.

Trucks are involved in a huge proportion of fatal crashes and they wreck the roads.
The adoption of a 52 ton limit for trucks will lead to massive public expenditure for private gains.
Another dopey policy adoption?

The Stranger

24th August 2009, 12:50

Australian stats showed a paradoxical INCREASE in road traffic crash/death with the introduction of speed restriction/policing.

I know how to fix that. Lower the speed limits an increase policing, that'll fix it.

Mikkel

24th August 2009, 13:37

Ban automatics.

Make speeding an offense only if it creates a hazardous situation.

Install red-light runner cameras. (instant disqualification for running reds - or at least 75 demerits)

Remove subjective charges such as careless, reckless and dangerous driving. Or at least shift the burden of evidence onto the prosecution.

Colour all grit fluourescent green. Deploy street sweepers to clear grit once ice hazards has passed.

Enforce medication of repeat drink drivers with antabus.

Introduce a proper licensing system instead of the current joke. Require all current license holders to resit their tests inside a 2 year period. A fail and it's back to school if you want to retain your license.

Introduce real consequences for operating a vehicle without WOF or registration and for operating a vehicle which you are not licensed for.

Expropriation of vehicles if unable to pay fines incurred while operating them.

Abolish the silly give-way rule. (You know which one I am talking about... evidence enough.)

Mandatory day-time running lights.

Mandatory 3rd party insurance. (If you think yourself infallible you are an idiot and needs managing - if you don't you already have 3rd party insurance.)

...and I'm just getting started. There's heaps of things that could be done and plenty of them that would be easy enough to implement as well. Driver training is at the root though - but it is not easy to fix properly.

Tony

24th August 2009, 13:48

"Scared to Death, The Anatomy of a Very Dangerous Phenomenon" by Christopher Booker and Richard North. Australian stats showed a paradoxical INCREASE in road traffic crash/death with the introduction of speed restriction/policing.

You and Hinny are just talking B.S?

I decided to take up the challenge and read up a little on your source.

I discovered this brief synopsis on the source you quote http://www.kwengineering.org/TeleCameras.pdf.

So, Ok maybe there is some truth in what you are saying.

In some of the recent research I did into the 70km/h learner restriction I discovered that there appears to be no road safety research being conducted in N.Z.

Do a search on "road safety research" in google within N.Z. to see what I mean.

Yes I found the road safety trust, and I found that they offer funds for research ...but where is the research that is the result of this? The closest thing we have to reserach is the "Down with speed document" which quotes from overseas research.

The police have a statistics department but it doesn't appear to use these as a foundation for commencing research. I also discovered that the police are shockingly bad at statistical collection (and a lot of the information they collect is never even entered into a database!) so statistical analysis is consequently all but impossible in many areas

At the best of times statistical anaylyses is fraught with problems. For example statistics have been used to show that there is no evidence that riders who opt to attend voluntary practical defensive driving courses have a lower fatality result than riders who do not attend these courses. However what reporters of the quoted statistics don't show is that the people who opt to go on these course fall predominently into the demographic of 15-25 year old adrenalin seeking males.

Raw statistics and research are two very different things.

Everyone on this thread has some road saftey ideas that they really believe in just like the ideas our law makers and ministers have. But genuine road safety needs to start with research ... not a request by Steven Joyce for submissions from uninformed people (like you and me and the police, etc).

I have come to the conclusion that traffic safety policy and the associated laws are politically inspired rather than inspired by a real desire to reduce fatalities and injuries.

I feel that the opinions of members of this forum are of no value as this forum is not read by any of our policy or law makers. Posting your ideas here may be a waste of time.

I get the feeling that many (most) of the police I have been discussing road safety issues with in the last 12 months have long since given up and don't believe that they can have a genuine role/effect in lowering road injuries and fatalities.

You need to post your ideas on a traffic safety discussion forum. Is there such a thing in New Zealand? The safeas forum web site (http://www.safeas.govt.nz/) that the government initiated but has now locked/closed was probably the closest thing we had to a public and open online forum.

James Deuce

24th August 2009, 13:54

However what reporters of the quoted statistics don't show is that the people who opt to go on these course fall predominently into the demographic of 15-25 year old adrenalin seeking males.

Done any courses? Not trackdays I mean, but actual courses. They fall into two camps. People traversing the licensing programme and a small number of people, usually 30s to 50s, brushing up on their skills.

NZ's democratic system is based on the Westminster Parliamentary system and despite the Bill of Rights and what people would like to believe, indivduals have no rights and no influence on Government, other than at election time.

They don' need no steekeen research. They know best.

Markw336

24th August 2009, 14:02

Mikkel

24th August 2009, 14:27

good idea but i think that with no laws all the really stupid people would die off lol in accidents then left with a country full of really safe people

But if 95% of the population is "really stupid people" and there's 10% collateral damage - then all the "really safe people" could be dead before half of the "really stupid people" have managed to kill themselves. Improbable, but not impossible.

Not too good.

NinjaNanna

24th August 2009, 15:31

Simple really:

Corner speed signs to show three speeds

Motorcycle
Car
Truck

with an extra board or coloured background to show

decreasing radius
off camber

I'd also create a meaningful standard for centre line markings that

was meaningful in regards to safe overtaking
indicated safe overtaking distance remaining.

I'd also launch a meaningful TV education campaign reminding rider's of the unpredicatable nature of road hazards particularly:

tyre rubber
pot holes
landslips
other drivers
tractors

and hammer home that there is sfa anybody can do about these and its up to the rider to expect them.

Finally I'd increase the open road limit for bikes to 125km so that they can stay clear of other road users. This limit would only apply to clear open roads and not to any open road

Genestho

24th August 2009, 15:47

You and Hinny are just talking B.S?

I decided to take up the challenge and read up a little on your source.

I discovered this brief synopsis on the source you quote http://www.kwengineering.org/TeleCameras.pdf.

So, Ok maybe there is some truth in what you are saying.

In some of the recent research I did into the 70km/h learner restriction I discovered that there appears to be no road safety research being conducted in N.Z.

Do a search on "road safety research" in google within N.Z. to see what I mean.

Yes I found the road safety trust, and I found that they offer funds for research ...but where is the research that is the result of this? The closest thing we have to reserach is the "Down with speed document" which quotes from overseas research.

The police have a statistics department but it doesn't appear to use these as a foundation for commencing research. I also discovered that the police are shockingly bad at statistical collection (and a lot of the information they collect is never even entered into a database!) so statistical analysis is consequently all but impossible in many areas

At the best of times statistical anaylyses is fraught with problems. For example statistics have been used to show that there is no evidence that riders who opt to attend voluntary practical defensive driving courses have a lower fatality result than riders who do not attend these courses. However what reporters of the quoted statistics don't show is that the people who opt to go on these course fall predominently into the demographic of 15-25 year old adrenalin seeking males.

Raw statistics and research are two very different things.

Everyone on this thread has some road saftey ideas that they really believe in just like the ideas our law makers and ministers have. But genuine road safety needs to start with research ... not a request by Steven Joyce for submissions from uninformed people (like you and me and the police, etc).

I have come to the conclusion that traffic safety policy and the associated laws are politically inspired rather than inspired by a real desire to reduce fatalities and injuries.

I feel that the opinions of members of this forum are of no value as this forum is not read by any of our policy or law makers. Posting your ideas here may be a waste of time.

I get the feeling that many (most) of the police I have been discussing road safety issues with in the last 12 months have long since given up and don't believe that they can have a genuine role/effect in lowering road injuries and fatalities.

You need to post your ideas on a traffic safety discussion forum. Is there such a thing in New Zealand? The safeas forum web site (http://www.safeas.govt.nz/) that the government initiated but has now locked/closed was probably the closest thing we had to a public and open online forum.

There's an online forum at the MOT website, opened up along side the Safer Journeys Road Safety Stategy to 2020, and as far as research - you have to provide it, cited and referencable. At that point the way I understand it, is further research is conducted, as to how far - I couldn't tell you.I have an interest in the raw data.

Also if you really want to contribute to safer roads, you need to make a submission on the public consultation papers.

You don't have to agree, you can actually disagree on X, Y, Z because ___________.

Whether or not that's adhered to is another story, I guess it depends on numbers of submission saying the same things with referenced material?

Check the MOT site here (http://www.transport.govt.nz/saferjourneys/Pages/default.aspx) for the forum, consultation paper, and submissions, both online and printable/post version, forms.

Genestho

24th August 2009, 15:51

MarkW, the flaw in your evil plan, is that the really stupid people quite often take the really innocent people down with them.

Hinny

24th August 2009, 21:16

You and Hinny are just talking B.S?

I decided to take up the challenge and read up a little on your source.

So, Ok maybe there is some truth in what you are saying.

Fucktard is a term that springs to mind.
Keep your hand off it (the keyboard) until you do a bit more reading.

Little quote from your ref.
'report from the TRL, Report 595, commissioned by the Highways Agency, looking into the effect of cameras on motorways.
The TRL had found that, where fixed cameras were installed at road works, the risk of accidents giving rise to injury was increased by 55 per cent. Where fixed cameras were installed on open motorways the risk was increased by 31 per cent. In general, fatal and serious crashes were 32
per cent more likely where cameras were being operated.'

Tony

24th August 2009, 22:22

Done any courses? Not trackdays I mean, but actual courses. They fall into two camps. People traversing the licensing programme and a small number of people, usually 30s to 50s, brushing up on their skills.

NZ's democratic system is based on the Westminster Parliamentary system and despite the Bill of Rights and what people would like to believe, indivduals have no rights and no influence on Government, other than at election time.

They don' need no steekeen research. They know best.

Yep done some courses. Not many 30s to 50 year olds on the skills courses I have participated in. Probably only a couple in this age group last time I attended NASS. Not many girls either.

But couldn't agree more with your point "They know best".

ukusa

24th August 2009, 22:35

How would you go about it?
What rule changes would you recommend?
What education, training and advertising would you recommend?
What roading changes would you recommend?

All cars must be made of foam rubber
All bikes will have compulsary air bags (additional to the pillion) :sick:
All roads will be made of rubber
All trees & lamposts will be removed from the roadside.
Standard rider gear would be a blow up sumo suit :yes:

Tony

24th August 2009, 22:45

Fucktard is a term that springs to mind.
Keep your hand off it (the keyboard) until you do a bit more reading.

Little quote from your ref.
'report from the TRL, Report 595, commissioned by the Highways Agency, looking into the effect of cameras on motorways.
The TRL had found that, where fixed cameras were installed at road works, the risk of accidents giving rise to injury was increased by 55 per cent. Where fixed cameras were installed on open motorways the risk was increased by 31 per cent. In general, fatal and serious crashes were 32
per cent more likely where cameras were being operated.'

Yep read the whole thing twice before commenting.

Maybe you missed the question mark in my comment "You and Hinny are just talking B.S?"

Sorry I didn't mean to upset you, I thought you would spot that I was being sarcastic ... and many thanks for the source reference. It certainly shows there are two sides to the 'speed kills' debate. The problem is that there is now a large vested interest (pride and financial income) in the speed kills debate here and in the UK, Australia and America.

It's become politically unacceptable to challenge this 'common wisdom'. Imagine if Steven Joyce said hold on a minute I've got some doubts about this focus on 'speed kills'.

Besides they don't know how to police/process/prosecute anything without cut and dried limits, i.e. speed and alchohol.

Hinny please keep bringing stuff like this to our attention.

Once again sorry for the misunderstanding.

Hinny

24th August 2009, 23:25

Maybe you missed the question mark in my comment "You and Hinny are just talking B.S?"

Sorry I didn't mean to upset you, I thought you would spot that I was being sarcastic ...

Lost my fricken glasses again.

The Stranger

25th August 2009, 08:09

Not many 30s to 50 year olds on the skills courses I have participated in. Probably only a couple in this age group last time I attended NASS. Not many girls either.

NASS, please tell me you aren't referring to the North Auckland Street Skills event are you?

The Stranger

25th August 2009, 08:11

Maybe you missed the question mark in my comment "You and Hinny are just talking B.S?"

That's not a question, it's a statement with incorrect punctuation.

Hinny

26th August 2009, 00:16

Hinny please keep bringing stuff like this to our attention.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=69494&page=10
Formal complaints thread went off road for a while on the topic of speed limits.
Post 145 Some US States raised their speed limits, some didn't. Over the same time period those States with the increased speed limits experienced a better result vis a vis road deaths than the States that kept the old 55mph limit.
Can you imagine driving say Reno to Salt Lake City at 55mph. It's about 400 miles with 4 corners. (from memory) Straight as far as you could see. Nothing on either side of the road. I can imagine people falling asleep being a common occurrence.

light

26th August 2009, 13:43

*Get in line with the rest of the world and change the giveway rule to the person turning left has the right of way over the person turning right.

You see this is something I am very interested in which I may make a thread on.

The way NZ have the rule imo is correct. Reason being we drive on the Left side of the road not the right. Here is the reason why.

When turning left you are on the left-hand side of the road out of the way of other traffic. The person turning right however is in the middle of the road with both on coming and traffic behind them. On NZ roads it is in the best interest to get the car turning Right around the corner asap.

Countries that drive on the right-hand side of the road still use the same system we do. Left turning traffic give way to all. That imo is stupid because the left turning traffic is in the middle of the road meaning they are stuck in the middle of the road causing issue for the traffic infront of them and behind them.

I have driven in europe for about 3 years and obviously in NZ also and I think the way NZ have it is much safer.

Ixion

26th August 2009, 14:01

There is some background behind the NZ rule.

Bear in mind that NZ is still largely a rural country. Larger than England, and less than 10% of the people.

Fifty years ago, it was even more rural.

Back then the "typical" road was a country road. Gravel, no centre line.Narrow.

The rule then was, if turning right pull over to the *left* (ie the side of the road). Wait until there was no traffic coming in either direction , then make the turn .

If turning left, you had right of way over right turning traffic, waiting over on the side of the road

This was pretty safe . Left turning traffic is in a fairly safe place to start with (tucked in on the side of the road). Right turning traffic was ALSO in a a safe place at the side of the road..

But, as traffic volumes increased, it became apparent that often the "pull over to the left" rule was impractical. Waiting until there was no traffic in either direction took forever.

So they changed it so the right turning vehicle waited by the centre line. Right turn still gave way to left turn (This was maybe in 1962 but i can't really remember and I'm not going to bother finding out)

Trouble was, on country roads , this meant that the right turning vehicle was in a pretty dangerous position. Those roads are narrow. If there was a bit of left turning traffic the right turner had to wait for quite a long time , out there in the middle of the road. Quite a few people got cleaned up by straight through traffic.

So, they reversed it. Left hand turner gives way. He's in a safe place, doesn't matter if he has to wait a while. Get the dangerously placed right turner out of harms way as soon as possible.

It makes sense in a country where , even today, the norm is the country road. In cities, with multi lane highways, not so sensible. But it's still safer.

"The rest of the world does it differently" doesn't cut it for me.

The Stranger

26th August 2009, 14:03

The way NZ have the rule imo is correct.

Oh dear, a heretic.
How dare you apply common sense and logic.

Mikkel

26th August 2009, 15:35

I think the way NZ have it is much safer.

What you think and the statistics shows seems to be somewhat at odds...

Countries that drive on the right-hand side of the road still use the same system we do. Left turning traffic give way to all.

Obviously they are not using the same system if they are driving on the right-hand side of the roads and left-turning traffic has to give way. I may be wrong, but I do believe that NZ is the only country in the world where people drive on the left but gives way to traffic coming from the right - and neither there is there any countries in the world where people drive on the right and gives way to traffic coming from the left. (That's of course disregarding give way signs and assuming that there are any traffic rules.)

The main issue, with how it is here in NZ, is that the person turning left has to divide their attention three ways between oncoming drivers wanting to turn right, potential cyclists on their left-hand side and traffic passing on the right-hand side coming from behind that will block the motorist trying to turn right. Given the powers of observation of the average motorist that is asking a lot.

light

27th August 2009, 10:36

Obviously they are not using the same system if they are driving on the right-hand side of the roads and left-turning traffic has to give way. I may be wrong, but I do believe that NZ is the only country in the world where people drive on the left but gives way to traffic coming from the right - and neither there is there any countries in the world where people drive on the right and gives way to traffic coming from the left. (That's of course disregarding give way signs and assuming that there are any traffic rules.)

When I say the same system I mean you don't have to change anything you already know when going to a country that drives on the right-hand side of the road. Road rules are the same. Yes they are on the right side so turning left is the opposite to us due to them being on the other side of the road. The rules are the same tho. when turning left they give way to all.

You think that if the changed it to right hand turns give way to all the powers of observation change at all? You still have to watch for on coming traffic and not getting in the way of the traffic flow + looking out for the left turning car and ped's + bikes etc. The difference is that you are in the middle of the road waiting for everyone else to work in perfect unison so you can cross over the lane of traffic to get into the right hand road.

Left hand turners only have to pull over to the left hand side as much as they can... and make sure no one is turning right into that same road. If it's clear they go if it is not then wait. They are off to the side of the road stationary and only have to worry about some one rear ending them due to being blind. Also if they have cars coming up behind them thus stopping the right hand turning car... they can make a safe left hand turn freeing up their lane again.

It just means the right hand car... once he has a gap to get into that right hand lane can do so knowing he doesnt also have to give way to the left hand turning car.

Geeez I hope that made sense. :sweatdrop

Mikkel

27th August 2009, 10:51

Geeez I hope that made sense. :sweatdrop

You hope in vain. :yes:

The Stranger

27th August 2009, 11:51

What you think and the statistics shows seems to be somewhat at odds...

There's stats for this? Do tell, do tell.

SPman

27th August 2009, 19:13

I have driven in europe for about 3 years and obviously in NZ also and I think the way NZ have it is much safer. So do I - it makes sense when you think about it. I still find myself trying to do it in country roads over here.....

magicmonkey

28th August 2009, 10:36

Being a pom and coming over here, I've been shocked by the appalling driving standards. The standard is so low that you frequently see people coming around a blind corner of the wrong side of the road (I've mainly seen cars doing this but a couple of bikes as well).

1: Raise the age for getting a license, 15 is way too young to be on the public roads,. Around the 18-20 mark should be about right in my mind.

2: Revamp the written test. No more 'idiot' questions on the theory test which you could answer with no training. If you're going to test, test for something more than a pulse

3: Revamp the practical test. All driving tests should have a section in busy business districts during rush hour and have a section on the motorway, possible with these being two separate tests. If you want to know how sensible a driver is, force them to pay attention to other drivers (rush hour) and see how they handle speed (motorway).

4: policing. In the UK you can get pulled over for nothing, it's quite totalitarian but when you're driving around in something quite capable of killing someone it's good to know that there are people out there making sure you're doing it right. Over here you can get away with anything from busted brake lights to cutting people up so long as you don't go over the speed limit. seems like there's far too much focus on making 'revenue' and not enough on actually making the roads safe.

Excuse the rant, road safety tends to be a bee in my bonnet!

*EDIT*

Another thought, not sure if you have this over here or not but every driver should be able to prove they can perform basic maintenance on their vehicle. The simple sutff like checking oil and water, checking tread depth, basic understanding of engine components etc. Getting properly maintained vehicles with drivers who have a clue how to keep them that way is almost as important as knowing how to drive in my book...

imdying

28th August 2009, 10:40

2: Revamp the written test. No more 'idiot' questions on the theory test which you could answer with no training. If you're going to test, test for something more than a pulseSo very bloody true :yes:

But then we'll be discriminating against retarded Asian migrants that can't spell their name in English let alone read tests or road signs.... we can't have that now :mad:

magicmonkey

28th August 2009, 10:55

So very bloody true :yes:

But then we'll be discriminating against retarded Asian migrants that can't spell their name in English let alone read tests or road signs.... we can't have that now :mad:

pah, I say you should discriminate against idiots regardless to their skin colour ;)

MarkH

28th August 2009, 12:48

4: policing. In the UK you can get pulled over for nothing, it's quite totalitarian but when you're driving around in something quite capable of killing someone it's good to know that there are people out there making sure you're doing it right. Over here you can get away with anything from busted brake lights to cutting people up so long as you don't go over the speed limit. seems like there's far too much focus on making 'revenue' and not enough on actually making the roads safe.

Here in NZ we get the occasional blitz on WoF & Reg, the rest of the time you can easily drive around all the time with neither. If you don't speed then you don't even need a license. I would love to see more policing of traffic lights & give ways - too many retards think that speeding through a red light that changed a couple of seconds ago is OK. Red light runners & people that fail to give way or pull out without looking carefully are often responsible for injuring motorcyclists - cops should do something about shit like that.

It really pisses me off that the police put so much effort into fining the driver going 11kph over the limit and so little effort into catching burglars & car/bike thieves. I think that anyone that has had a vehicle stolen would agree that more focus on catching thieving scum rather than bothering motorists that are safely driving along a little above the speed limit would be a bloody good idea.

magicmonkey

28th August 2009, 13:02

Here in NZ we get the occasional blitz on WoF & Reg, the rest of the time you can easily drive around all the time with neither. If you don't speed then you don't even need a license. I would love to see more policing of traffic lights & give ways - too many retards think that speeding through a red light that changed a couple of seconds ago is OK. Red light runners & people that fail to give way or pull out without looking carefully are often responsible for injuring motorcyclists - cops should do something about shit like that.

It really pisses me off that the police put so much effort into fining the driver going 11kph over the limit and so little effort into catching burglars & car/bike thieves. I think that anyone that has had a vehicle stolen would agree that more focus on catching thieving scum rather than bothering motorists that are safely driving along a little above the speed limit would be a bloody good idea.

And the lights thing is so easy to police; they don't even need actual people (cameras do this job in the UK) and they're a revenue earner (more important for them than me but if it needs selling to them, this is the way to do it)

Heh, I could rant about other drivers all day, still doesn't make me perfect though. My reggo is overdue at the moment (got the WOF though as that's a road safety thing rather than just a tax) I will head down and get it some time soon but I've just been far too busy :o

nosebleed

28th August 2009, 13:11

Being a pom and coming over here, I've been shocked by the appalling driving standards. The standard is so low that you frequently see people coming around a blind corner of the wrong side of the road (I've mainly seen cars doing this but a couple of bikes as well).

1: Raise the age for getting a license, 15 is way too young to be on the public roads,. Around the 18-20 mark should be about right in my mind.

2: Revamp the written test. No more 'idiot' questions on the theory test which you could answer with no training. If you're going to test, test for something more than a pulse

3: Revamp the practical test. All driving tests should have a section in busy business districts during rush hour and have a section on the motorway, possible with these being two separate tests. If you want to know how sensible a driver is, force them to pay attention to other drivers (rush hour) and see how they handle speed (motorway).

4: policing. In the UK you can get pulled over for nothing, it's quite totalitarian but when you're driving around in something quite capable of killing someone it's good to know that there are people out there making sure you're doing it right. Over here you can get away with anything from busted brake lights to cutting people up so long as you don't go over the speed limit. seems like there's far too much focus on making 'revenue' and not enough on actually making the roads safe.

Excuse the rant, road safety tends to be a bee in my bonnet!

I've got bit of a lead foot problem in the car which will probably head over onto bikes as well so I think that 'gutless' might not be such a bad place to start, it's keep me out of trouble a lot more than something with more kick!

Having said that I may well find myself changing my mind down the road!

careful...teh internetz is watching! :niceone:

Grahameeboy

28th August 2009, 13:23

LOL... golden handshakes! But what about all that free travel? And money to live in your own house?

To reduce road accidents, we need to:
*Raise the driving age from 15. Frontal lobe development isn't even close to complete. Agree
*Crack down way harder on drunk drivers. Yep and no ACC pay outs
*Make driving tests more comprehensive and make them more regular for older drivers. Agree
*Get rid of Cheesecutters!!!!!! Not sure this has caused many deaths to date
*Massive advertising campaigns teaching people how to indicate at roundabouts...agree but easy to avoid
*Massive advertising campaigns telling people to watch for bikes..and cars...it's not just bikes that have near misses
*Phase in mandatory ABS and TC for new bikes from 2012...cost!! We already complain about Registration etc
*Improve road surfaces everywhere...they are not that bad..ride to the conditions
*Get in line with the rest of the world and change the giveway rule to the person turning left has the right of way over the person turning right. Agree, causes too much confusion...
*Make motorcycle lanes on the motorways...silly idea...125's v 1000's fighting for the same lane
*Get rid of 70km/h limit for learner bikers..yep..don't do it for cars
*Crack down harder on idiot drivers/riders racing in the streets....just those racing!!
*Govt subsidies for race track use....$150 - 200....yeah right. Why should Govt pay for our fun
*Ban gangs under 'conspiracy to commit crime' laws....is that a safety issue or had you run out of ideas

Enough for ya? :innocent: Man, I'd better get back to work!! :laugh:

...............................

Grahameeboy

28th August 2009, 13:25

So very bloody true :yes:

But then we'll be discriminating against retarded Asian migrants that can't spell their name in English let alone read tests or road signs.... we can't have that now :mad:

And Kiwi's can read signs.....:Oi:....at least Asians (and they are not bad) have an excuse

imdying

28th August 2009, 13:55

It's not an excuse in an English speaking country.

magicmonkey

28th August 2009, 14:16

careful...teh internetz is watching! :niceone:

lol! Yeah, I've had my fair share of speeding tickets :o I've never had an accident though (with the exception of reversing into a 2 foot high concrete pole once!) as I only push it when I know I can handle the road and there aren't any other drivers around. To my mind that's 'safe' driving as I'm within my limits and there isn't the variable of other drivers who are outside their limits. I'm sure there have been times when I have been dangerous though, it's not as if I'm perfect ;)

Hinny

30th August 2009, 01:56

*Make motorcycle lanes on the motorways..

......silly idea...125's v 1000's fighting for the same lane..........................

Using the bus lanes in the 'burbs works fine. No reason why it shouldn't work on the motorway.
125s and thous go the same speed if riding within the law.

Mort

30th August 2009, 02:16

Training and practice is everything. Bikers need to be the best on the road. Vicious insurance or ACC against the idiot riders out there.... discounts for the people prepared to make the grade. Tougher govt tests too.

IMHO

quickbuck

30th August 2009, 02:23

*Make motorcycle lanes on the motorways..

125s and thous go the same speed if riding within the law.

They have the same top speed on the open road... BUT it is the rate of change in speed that differs...
This may pose a problem...
May not either..... It won't if the Thou is being ridden sensibly.

Grahameeboy

30th August 2009, 06:35

*Make motorcycle lanes on the motorways..

Using the bus lanes in the 'burbs works fine. No reason why it shouldn't work on the motorway.
125s and thous go the same speed if riding within the law.

If they do?? I think it is still a silly idea and has no real point if as you say "they will ride within the law"

The Stranger

30th August 2009, 08:41

Every 5yrs you have to renew your license and to do so you must successfully complete a scratch and win. At least it means people get a refresher on the laws (not that they will obey them) and can be used to ensure changes filter through. Plus, with a bit of luck, some will actually study for the test.

This also has the benefit of being cheap and easy to administer even for fairly rural areas and as the govt can charge for it they should appreciate it.

crazyhorse

30th August 2009, 09:02

Create roads like America............. :innocent:

Hinny

30th August 2009, 09:43

If they do?? I think it is still a silly idea and has no real point if as you say "they will ride within the law"

The point is, surely, that motorcyclists will no longer be forced to illegally lane split or crawl in the congestion with all the trucks and cages.
As I stated before, it works fine in the suburbs using bus lanes to avoid traffic congestion.
The anomaly of being unable to use the bus lanes on rhe motorway seems dopey to me.

Hinny

30th August 2009, 10:54

Of course there would be less congestion to deal with if they increased the speed limit on the motorways and got rid of visible patrol cars.
The exact opposite of the recomendations of the European Study they seem so keen on quoting when justifying their policing strategy.
It seems so ironic that Europeans could come up with dopey ideas such as those they espouse in that report. To me it seems patently obvious that the opposite of their recomendations is the policy adopted by those countries that have the lowest road tolls in Europe.
How can that not be causal?

Grahameeboy

30th August 2009, 13:02

The point is, surely, that motorcyclists will no longer be forced to illegally lane split or crawl in the congestion with all the trucks and cages.
As I stated before, it works fine in the suburbs using bus lanes to avoid traffic congestion.
The anomaly of being unable to use the bus lanes on rhe motorway seems dopey to me.

Agree with the last bit....the problem is that bus lanes are not continuous on the motorway so a bit like cycle lanes they end at some point..then you would have merge back in etc...

Hinny

31st August 2009, 08:41

Agree with the last bit....the problem is that bus lanes are not continuous on the motorway so a bit like cycle lanes they end at some point..then you would have merge back in etc...

Half a loaf of bread is better than no bloody bread at all.

The Stranger

31st August 2009, 09:00

Agree with the last bit....the problem is that bus lanes are not continuous on the motorway so a bit like cycle lanes they end at some point..then you would have merge back in etc...

Fuck you like the sound of your own voice don't you?

Merging is what bikes do fooken well, they are short and nimble. Have you ever lane split or filtered? I guess not huh. Well if you do, you find you frequently have to merge back into the traffic. For the vast majority of us this is trivial, for those numpties that have a problem with this I suggest you should sell your fooken bike and become a cager.

Ixion

31st August 2009, 10:30

Agree with the last bit....the problem is that bus lanes are not continuous on the motorway so a bit like cycle lanes they end at some point..then you would have merge back in etc...

And so? Just like the cycle lanes, y'merge back in. If a honking huge bus can do it, a wee bike won't even be noticed.

dpex

31st August 2009, 19:11

And so? Just like the cycle lanes, y'merge back in. If a honking huge bus can do it, a wee bike won't even be noticed.

I'd make everyone go back to riding a donkey. Guaranteed outcome in road-death reduction.

MarkH

31st August 2009, 19:47

I'd make everyone go back to riding a donkey. Guaranteed outcome in road-death reduction.

Starting with the police! Then they wouldn't be bothering us and pulling us over.

3umph

31st August 2009, 20:17

What rule changes would you recommend?
1. all drivers for any licence is to do compulsary 3-6 month or X amount of km on a bike/scooter before getting a car learners.
2. Graduated full licence for bike HP not engine size to stop a new full licence person jumping straight to a 150hp rocket from a gn250
3. Make proper riding gear compulsory, pants, jacket, gloves and boots etc.
4. Compulsory insurance or bike is seized.
5. Increase the max speed for bikes on the open road
6. lower fines as most dont give a shit about the $$$ but increase demerits so takes less to lose licence.
7. Increase fines and demerits for dangerous or no maintained or non complying bikes to WOF standard.
8. No change of registration to be done unless the person has a licence to operate that type of vehicle.

What education, training and advertising would you recommend?
TBH the advertising does F^%k all to the ones that dont want to learn.
Maybe compulsory training or track days as part of the licence requirements...
MAybe 3-4 class lessons over the 1st 6 months of restricted licence a week or 2 apart to let theory sink in

What roading changes would you recommend?
1. Roads to constructed to a set specification
2. Roading contractors to be liable for the condition of the road surface they lay and maintain.
3. 0800 hotline for crap roads and when reported they are liable if the defects are not remedied and fined.
4. New type of paint for road lines that has more grip in the wet

that's just a few things I could think of...

Grahameeboy

1st September 2009, 06:52

Fuck you like the sound of your own voice don't you?

Merging is what bikes do fooken well, they are short and nimble. Have you ever lane split or filtered? I guess not huh. Well if you do, you find you frequently have to merge back into the traffic. For the vast majority of us this is trivial, for those numpties that have a problem with this I suggest you should sell your fooken bike and become a cager.

:rockon:...............................

Grahameeboy

1st September 2009, 06:55

And so? Just like the cycle lanes, y'merge back in. If a honking huge bus can do it, a wee bike won't even be noticed.

Buses are different...I can just see a few bikes battling with cars to merge in safely....I see what you are saying but just think it's a white elephant and don't see why the Govt would even consider paying for this

Genestho

1st September 2009, 09:06

On Sunday, I was a mates place, enjoying a coffee by the fire.

We look down on SH 29, and see A Fire Engine, police, and a tow truck, a car in a paddock, (it went straight through a corner across the centreline and into a paddock - luckily no oncoming traffic)

I wait till the traffic clears, put my kids in the car, drive down SH 29, and 5 mins down the road, there's the reminants of a (reported) 10 injured smash, where one car has crossed the centre line.

It was a rainy day. Sure.

I drive through the accident site, sign posted 30 or 50 km (can't recall now) as others are whipping through at much more speed than that.

Yesterday, I pick my child up from day care, and we drive past a singular vehicle smash into a power pole, the day was VERY blustery.

I go home, and we loose power for 2 hours. And I fume about these smashes, this as we sit in impending dark and cold, tea ruined.

Of course I hope everyone involved in these smashes are ok.

Then, this morning, I'm indicating to turn left, an oncoming truck is indicating to turn across me.
So I stop to giveway, still indicating.

The arse hat behind me is speeding, and honks his horn at me, gives ME the finger, as he speeds past between myself and the truck.
I look at the truck driver - who has stopped, handsigns: "are you going or what" his hand sign "no no you go"

I'm the only one out of three vehicles doing something VERY basic, that I read in my Road Code.

FFS.

You know, I thought of this thread and others similar, what should the GOVT do, what should MOT do....

And then I thought of a quote from European Road safety. (The following is not it, but in basic terms...)

A govt and any road safety initiatives, is useless when society does not take responsibility for it's own actions on the roads.

READ the Friggen road code, figure out what GIVEWAY means, DRIVE to the conditions.

Over.