Cornering

[p.dath]

I have written an article on cornering:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/wiki/Cornering

But I don't have sufficient experience to really fill it out. So I have created a section for beginners, and filled that out with what I know. I'm hoping to only put the most important bits in here so as to not overload those just learning.

I create a second section for advanced riders, and need someone who knows more about vanishing points and the like to fill it out.

[cowboyz]

Quoted from Wiki.

Before entering the corner try to select the correct gear and appropriate entry speed.
dont try. Do.
Try to avoid braking or changing gear during the corner as it can tend to stand the bike back up again, which makes it much harder to turn.
ok. this is fair enough
Try to enter "tighter" corners at higher revs.
Losing me.....
Higher revs mean you can poor on speed faster if you run into an issue, and some bikes become more stable as they sit down in their suspension better.
hmmm. and some bikes become more stable as ones knee is dragging on the road.....
Not good advice dude. especially for a beginner cornering.. Way too much to think about. To start with... You dont need to be doing high revs to settle the bike. And all that will end up happening is a shut of the throttle and engine braking will result in dipping the bike or a lowside.

Enter the corner from the outside. Stay there (refer exit strategy below). Turning in too soon is a really common problem. It is often a good idea on a road to not ride right on the outside, as this leaves you a little bit of room if things turn to custard (e,g. you spot gravel on the outside of the road, perhaps some obstacle). If you leave a little bit of room you create more options in an emergency. On the track you can ride all the way to the outside, but its not as safe to do so on a road for a beginner.
I see what you are trying to say but not real comfotable with the way you are saying it.

Look to where you want to go (many beginners look straight ahead or down at the road).
yep. be careful you are looking *through* the corner not *at* the corner.
Once you can see your way through the exit of the corner turn in and you can start applying more throttle again. Don't turn in until you can see your way through the exit on a road because you often can't predict where the apex of the corner is (exit can be blind at the point of entry so you can't be sure where it is).
Completely lost me here??! You saying if the corners blind you shouldnt start turning in and run off the road? You ride a zooki huh?

(ok that zooki comment was a pisstake as well as the kneedown but the rest is valid)

[CookMySock]

I don't think it's right to coach newbies to apex corners.

You aren't teaching them to race - you are explaining the basics about safe motorcycle operation.

The exercises are ;

. basic steering with the bars
. discipline and accuracy - cast an imaginary line on the road and follow it
. where to look and why
. problems often encountered, ala
. a. running wide
. b. brain lockup
. c. encountering an obstacle - swerve and/or brake
. d. too tight a grip on the bars - technical description included


Apexing is not useful for for newbies unless the goal is to increase speed, or as an emergency procedure if they find themselves entering a corner way too quick, and what often happens if they survive that corner, is they are way overloaded and screw the following corner up irretrievably. :Oops:

Steve

[The Stranger]

Can't wait until katman sees this.

[Sidewinder]

I don't think it's right to coach newbies to apex corners.

You aren't teaching them to race - you are explaining the basics about safe motorcycle operation.

The exercises are ;

. basic steering with the bars
. discipline and accuracy - cast an imaginary line on the road and follow it
. where to look and why
. problems often encountered, ala
. a. running wide
. b. brain lockup
. c. encountering an obstacle - swerve and/or brake
. d. too tight a grip on the bars - technical description included


Apexing is not useful for for newbies unless the goal is to increase speed, or as an emergency procedure if they find themselves entering a corner way too quick, and what often happens if they survive that corner, is they are way overloaded and screw the following corner up irretrievably. :Oops:

Steve

apex? nah you dont need them! its road riding, so on a right hand coner you hit the apex? and let an oncoming car hit you? just keep the inside line and you have more run off and you take the shorter rout and get around the corner faster than the homo try to get to an apex

[NDORFN]

apex? nah you dont need them! its road riding, so on a right hand coner you hit the apex? and let an oncoming car hit you? just keep the inside line and you have more run off and you take the shorter rout and get around the corner faster than the homo try to get to an apex

Exactly, and on top of which, begginers should be riding the safest road surface, which is generally the inside line because it's least likely to have grit or gravel, it's the least worn part of the road as all the weight of four wheeled vehicles is transferred to the outside wheels, and because it gives the maximum room for error if the rider overshoots. I think the only thing a novice rider needs to go over theoretically before just plain old practising themselves into competent riding is the fundimentals of counter-steering, and looking ahead to where you want to go.

[NZsarge]

Can't wait until katman sees this.

:corn: a huh..

[CookMySock]

I think the only thing a novice rider needs to go over theoretically before just plain old practising themselves into competent riding is the fundimentals of counter-steering, and looking ahead to where you want to go.Yup. I think things like "ensuring their bodys' centre of mass is inside the bikes center of mass" are critical concepts though, and should be introduced shortly after the basic countersteer is mastered.

I do suggest the safest place is the right-hand half lane. But in a tight right-hander this pushes their head over the centreline, or their wheels into the center of the lane - emphatically not workable when there is opposing traffic or grit in the center of the lane.

Steve

[boomer]

I do suggest the safest place is the right-hand half lane. But in a tight right-hander this pushes their head over the centreline, or their wheels into the center of the lane

does this stuff get put in the wiki.. i fookin hope not.. Tell me mr international, how does the bikes wheels end up over the centre line when all the forces experienced going round a right hander push the bike and rider out to the left..??

jeez i wonder sometimes.

[Sidewinder]

Yup. I think things like "ensuring their bodys' centre of mass is inside the bikes center of mass" are critical concepts though, and should be introduced shortly after the basic countersteer is mastered.

I do suggest the safest place is the right-hand half lane. But in a tight right-hander this pushes their head over the centreline, or their wheels into the center of the lane - emphatically not workable when there is opposing traffic or grit in the center of the lane.

Steve

there is they old saying, SLOW DOWN! its just like dont put on the front brakes mid coner or it will stand the bike up and you'll run wide and or tuck the front instead you ride the rear brake and it will turn you into the corner even more and will get you through alot safer if the need to brake arises!
:woohoo:

[Sidewinder]

does this stuff get put in the wiki.. i fookin hope not.. Tell me mr international, how does the bikes wheels end up over the centre line when all the forces experienced going round a right hander push the bike and rider out to the left..??

jeez i wonder sometimes.

oi jonny english i think i he said lane not line!:whocares:

[p.dath]

does this stuff get put in the wiki.. i fookin hope not..

It doesn't go into the wiki until someone makes the effort of going over there and actually changing it.

Because things like cornering and braking are rather contentious issues they get discussed here and the article formed.

[Sidewinder]

and dont listen to people that say doing trackdays make you a better rider, a rider training day does but a trackday just makes you ride faster and you are on good seal, well some of the time (taupo lol) and then you get on the roadm and try to ride the same and it just doesn't work that well for some people

[p.dath]

...
Try to enter "tighter" corners at higher revs.
Losing me.....
Higher revs mean you can poor on speed faster if you run into an issue, and some bikes become more stable as they sit down in their suspension better.
hmmm. and some bikes become more stable as ones knee is dragging on the road.....
Not good advice dude. especially for a beginner cornering.. Way too much to think about. To start with... You dont need to be doing high revs to settle the bike. And all that will end up happening is a shut of the throttle and engine braking will result in dipping the bike or a lowside.

Enter the corner from the outside. Stay there (refer exit strategy below). Turning in too soon is a really common problem. It is often a good idea on a road to not ride right on the outside, as this leaves you a little bit of room if things turn to custard (e,g. you spot gravel on the outside of the road, perhaps some obstacle). If you leave a little bit of room you create more options in an emergency. On the track you can ride all the way to the outside, but its not as safe to do so on a road for a beginner.
I see what you are trying to say but not real comfotable with the way you are saying it.

Once you can see your way through the exit of the corner turn in and you can start applying more throttle again. Don't turn in until you can see your way through the exit on a road because you often can't predict where the apex of the corner is (exit can be blind at the point of entry so you can't be sure where it is). [/COLOR]
Completely lost me here??! You saying if the corners blind you shouldnt start turning in and run off the road? You ride a zooki huh?

(ok that zooki comment was a pisstake as well as the kneedown but the rest is valid)

I've removed the comment about using higher revs in corners, as it seems this is not a commonly held view or is a contentious view.

I've re-written the last bit about the exit strategy to make it easier to understand.

[boomer]

oi jonny english i think i he said lane not line!:whocares:

fair call.

he's still a muppet tho.

[Sidewinder]

I've removed the comment about using higher revs in corners, as it seems this is not a commonly held view or is a contentious view.

I've re-written the last bit about the exit strategy to make it easier to understand.

depends what ya riding, just ride in the power

[p.dath]

Can't wait until katman sees this.

Don't shoot me. I did say I didn't have enough experience to write the article and was asking those with more experience to add to it. :)

[NDORFN]

I've removed the comment about using higher revs in corners, as it seems this is not a commonly held view or is a contentious view.

I've re-written the last bit about the exit strategy to make it easier to understand.

You should just elaborate on the pro's and con's of different techniques and let people take what they want from it.

[Sidewinder]

You should just elaborate on the pro's and con's of different techniques and let people take what they want from it.

knee down riding is good. when the bike lets go you can save it most of the time

[p.dath]

You should just elaborate on the pro's and con's of different techniques and let people take what they want from it.

The thing with a wiki is that they should be more like an encyclopaedia, containing references and facts, as opposed to viewpoints. And of course that is difficult with contentious issues.

[CookMySock]

I've removed the comment about using higher revs in corners, as it seems this is not a commonly held view or is a contentious view.Well, actually I use higher revs in corners. It gives me a little bit more engine braking up my sleeve - available with just the release of the wrist, but I think that is cheating since I should add lean with a bar push, and not be (engine)braking.

It's also not wise chopping the throttle in the middle of the power band on a mid-size vtwin, coz it might slip the rear tyre, and for the same reason it is important that the bike is not changed down gears, or the clutch suddenly released with the engine idling.

So there are two sides to that one, and neither of the arguments are really valid.

Steve

[Sidewinder]

Well, actually I use higher revs in corners. It gives me a little bit more engine braking up my sleeve - available with just the release of the wrist, but I think that is cheating since I should add lean with a bar push, and not be (engine)braking.

It's also not wise chopping the throttle in the middle of the power band on a mid-size vtwin, coz it might slip the rear tyre, and for the same reason it is important that the bike is not changed down gears, or the clutch suddenly released with the engine idling.

So there are two sides to that one, and neither of the arguments are really valid.

Steve

if a 650 had that much power, its like hisiding a 250, haha! dont you wana use mid range were you have power and not the dead area of the end of the revs

[CookMySock]

if a 650 had that much power, its like hisiding a 250, haha! dont you wana use mid range were you have power and not the dead area of the end of the revsThe topic wasn't power, the topic was engine braking, and dumping the clutch even on a 250 vtwin WILL lock up the rear. I watched in horror as my learner daughter did it the other day. Lucky it wasn't during a corner in the wet.

Steve

[Sidewinder]

The topic wasn't power, the topic was engine braking, and dumping the clutch even on a 250 vtwin WILL lock up the rear. I watched in horror as my learner daughter did it the other day. Lucky it wasn't during a corner in the wet.

Steve
its called control
i had no problem back in the days on my vtr250, was great fun. you can abuse small bike in corners so much

[CookMySock]

its called control
i had no problem back in the days on my vtr250, was great fun. you can abuse small bike in corners so muchI don't doubt your ability, but thats not the topic here. Lets not provoke the mods pls.

Steve

[Hitcher]

The thing with a wiki is that they should be more like an encyclopaedia, containing references and facts, as opposed to viewpoints. And of course that is difficult with contentious issues.

Wikis present information in a neutral manner. Wikis are not some sort of intellectual wanking competition. Kiwi Biker has forums to let people whack on about trail braking, countersteering, hanging the arse out, etc.

[Sidewinder]

Wikis present information in a neutral manner. Wikis are not some sort of intellectual wanking competition. Kiwi Biker has forums to let people whack on about trail braking, countersteering, hanging the arse out, etc.

was there bad english in that

[Sidewinder]

I don't doubt your ability, but thats not the topic here. Lets not provoke the mods pls.

Steve

dont lie i doubt them everytime i crash

[Hitcher]

was there bad english in that

Was that a question?

[smoky]

People all have so many different opinions on how to ride, how to take a corner - this is going to be an interesting thread


I say "back it in" that's the best way of getting around a corner - beginner or not, 'back it in' and ride the throttle hard all the way thru


YEEEEEEeeeeee HaaaaaaAAAAA
:wari::wari::wari:

[Sidewinder]

Was that a question?

i think that was it

[SpankMe]

Moved out of the wiki as it's for NZ specific topics, not general motorcycling.

[CookMySock]

Yeah, then theres that too!

Steve

[AlpinePossum]

So I'm reviving / upgrading slightly rusty skills... so I've been reading all the books in the library on Motorcycling I can lay my library card on...

(My learning is style is I do, then I can understand what I read, then I try out what I read, then I chew it over in my head...rinse and repeat)

And... what I've been reading is 99.9% nothing I didn't know and do all ready.

It did occur to me as I was doodling my dirt bike around the port hills today practising delayed apexing... that I hadn't really read anything about what I really cared about.

I already did 99.9% of what the books say... but what I really wanted to know about was what to do when shit happens. eg. The corner radius decreases, and obstacle hoves into view, you meet an ice patch in the shade (yup, there is still the odd ice patch up there)

Yip, I _do_ go slow enough on entry, follow the right line, I do instinctively cover the front brakes, .... but shit still happens when you're already leaning into the bend suddenly you have to do one of the following

a) Turn much sharper to avoid obstacle.
b) Turn much wider to avoid obstacle and then turn much much sharper to avoid running off the road.
c) Stop dead whilst turning hard.


Now I'll really give you kudo's if..
* you can tell me what you must do,
* in each case above,
* assuming you _already_ have done all The Right things entering the bend,
* when you suddendly hit one of those scenarios.

Working it out after the obstacle appears is too late. It's needs to be preprogrammed into the muscles to work in time.

ie. The answers need to have (safe) matching exercises to drill the auto-responses into the msucles.

[mossy1200]

This link is comprehensive cornering advice

http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/corners/

[Winston001]

Yip, I _do_ go slow enough on entry, follow the right line, I do instinctively cover the front brakes, .... but shit still happens when you're already leaning into the bend suddenly you have to do one of the following

a) Turn much sharper to avoid obstacle.
b) Turn much wider to avoid obstacle and then turn much much sharper to avoid running off the road.
c) Stop dead whilst turning hard.


Now I'll really give you kudo's if..
* you can tell me what you must do,
* in each case above,
* assuming you _already_ have done all The Right things entering the bend,
* when you suddendly hit one of those scenarios.


I have no idea what to do and I doubt reading advice will ever really help. My observation is the only way to get these emergency skills is practise them off-road on a trail bike, then practise on track-days. Beyond that its suck it and see. Some riders are skilled.....and then there are the rest of us. :D

In my ideal world there would be a special road full of funny curves and surrounded by hay bales. There would be 1 litre bikes with roll-bars and you could practise away to your hearts content.

[NighthawkNZ]

Every corner you do has an apex...Teaching a newbie about the apex of a corner is all part of the process of picking the line through a corner. It doesn't have to be a racing line but should be the safest line... especially for picking a line on a right hander.

[YellowDog]

Surely the basics of cornering need to be covered before any of the style issues.

What about countersteering to set your lean. There is a relationship between; speed, lean angle, gradient, and camber to be discussed before the actual corner.

It looks like we trying to reinvent the wheel here.

[AlpinePossum]

I have no idea what to do and I doubt reading advice will ever really help.


Reading won't help no. Reading a good description of a safe exercise... and then doing it again and again and again... encodes it into your muscle memory, and then they'll do it for you automagically when the proverbial hits the fan.


My observation is the only way to get these emergency skills is practise them off-road on a trail bike, then practise on track-days. Beyond that its suck it and see. Some riders are skilled.....and then there are the rest of us. :D


Yip, I'm "one of the rest". :-) But I'd prefer to get it down pat rather than "suck it and see". Hmm. You're right about the off-road... my DR loves dirt.

But to do this sort of practice means a fair amount of flatish space without hard rocks and solid trees. ie. The tracks around the Waimak I've seen aren't ideal. Do you know a good track around Christchurch, just round and round hamster wheeling rather than hairy bumps and narrow twists?



In my ideal world there would be a special road full of funny curves and surrounded by hay bales.


Personally, having kicked a hay bale hard enough to regret it... I think people who put hay bales near bikers have a wicked sense of humour.

[AlpinePossum]

This link is comprehensive cornering advice

http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/corners/

That's a Good link.... at least it addresses the issue. It's still not what I want though.... as you come around a corner and the brown stuff is airborne and fanwards headed... you don't have time to be thinking, "Now what did that website say?" I want a way of making the response automatic.

[The Stranger]

That's a Good link.... at least it addresses the issue. It's still not what I want though.... as you come around a corner and the brown stuff is airborne and fanwards headed... you don't have time to be thinking, "Now what did that website say?" I want a way of making the response automatic.

Not sure what you are driving at really.

For a start if you late apex and look to the vanishing point this will give you the best view ahead that you will get and thus the earliest warning that you are approaching a problem - or a problem is approaching you. That's the best you can hope for in that regard.

You are meant to drive/ride such that you can stop within the distance of clear road in front of you. Combine this with the point above and there is your answer.

Enter wide, ensure your entry speed is not putting you beyond your comfort or ability zone, stay wide and maintain that speed until either a)you can see the exit is clear at which time you may apex the corner and gas it or b)if you encounter a hazard take the most appropriate action - which will depend on the hazard.

If you do encounter a hazard and have no options left then you were too fast or ran out of talent in which case you lose, go back and try again.
There is no magic bullet.
It's the road, leave the 10/10s stuff for the track and leave yourself some room to move (brake, accelerate, lean etc) in a corner. If you haven't yet figured out how to tell where that point is, slow down, err on the safe side.

[NighthawkNZ]

Not sure what you are driving at really.

For a start if you late apex and look to the vanishing point this will give you the best view ahead that you will get and thus the earliest warning that you are approaching a problem - or a problem is approaching you. That's the best you can hope for in that regard.

You are meant to drive/ride such that you can stop within the distance of clear road in front of you. Combine this with the point above and there is your answer.

Enter wide, ensure your entry speed is not putting you beyond your comfort or ability zone, stay wide and maintain that speed until either a)you can see the exit is clear at which time you may apex the corner and gas it or b)if you encounter a hazard take the most appropriate action - which will depend on the hazard.



Best advice I have seen on here for a long time...

[sinned]

Yip, I _do_ go slow enough on entry, follow the right line, I do instinctively cover the front brakes, .... but shit still happens when you're already leaning into the bend suddenly you have to do one of the following

a) Turn much sharper to avoid obstacle.
b) Turn much wider to avoid obstacle and then turn much much sharper to avoid running off the road.
c) Stop dead whilst turning hard.

Now I'll really give you kudo's if..
* you can tell me what you must do,
* in each case above,
* assuming you _already_ have done all The Right things entering the bend,
* when you suddendly hit one of those scenarios.


If you don't think you can handle those situations correctly I suggest you are probably riding too fast for your skill level. Mind you a lot of us do that.


Best advice I have seen on here for a long time... Agreed and congratulations to The Stranger.

[MSTRS]

For a start if you late apex and look to the vanishing point this will give you the best view ahead that you will get and thus the earliest warning that you are approaching a problem - or a problem is approaching you. ....

If you do encounter a hazard and have no options left then you were too fast or ran out of talent...

It's the road, leave the 10/10s stuff for the track and leave yourself some room to move (brake, accelerate, lean etc) in a corner. If you haven't yet figured out how to tell where that point is, slow down, err on the safe side.

And that, in a nutshell, is it. The road is not a place to practice race skills, so always tailor your riding to give yourself the best chance of completing each and every ride.
Remember, there are no prizes except satisfaction, but there is a world of hurt awaiting if you 'lose'.

[2wheeldrifter]

depends what ya riding, just ride in the power

That's more in tune to most thinking...... revs are your friend for powering out and engine braking... if either is needed

[Katman]

You are meant to drive/ride such that you can stop within the distance of clear road in front of you.



Unless, of course, there's a police car parked across your path.

Apparently, then you're allowed to bitch and moan that it wasn't your fault you ran into him.

[swbarnett]

Unless, of course, there's a police car parked across your path.

Apparently then you're allowed to bitch and moan that it wasn't your fault you ran into him.
I may be remembering this wrong but wasn't it that the police car was to the side of the road as the bikes came around the corner?

[Coldrider]

I've removed the comment about using higher revs in corners, as it seems this is not a commonly held view or is a contentious view.

I've re-written the last bit about the exit strategy to make it easier to understand.
At least that helps explain the handling issuies I get hitting the rev limiter whilst cornering. walking away promising not to go there again.....