Yamagama 100

[Mrs Busa Pete]

After endles reserch i found that an rg400 piston was the perfict size to use in the sleeveing down of the tzr 125 motor that i got of trade me .I found a listing in for 2nd hand barrels and pistons and went and checked out the diference in the pistons both pistons have a 26mm pin to crown hight only the rg 400 has a 14mm pin and the tzr125 has a 16mm pin this will be sorted by a 14/20/17 cage roller bearing for the conrod and taking 1mm of the bottem of the tzr125 barrel so the new piston is at the same zero point for ports.
After shit loads of phone calls to all sorts of outfits i went with colliers in levin sent the tzr125 barrel and the rg400 piston plus the tzrs power valve down today they should get it in the morning and i should get it back in 7 to 10 days including weekends,no turning back now.

yamaha tzr 125
bore 56.4
stroke50.7
pin 16mm


rg 400
bore 50mm
stroke 50.6mm
pin 14mm

[Mrs Busa Pete]

was thinking of fiting it to my fxr 150 frame that runs ns400r rims front and back that way i can change out the motor track side if the 2 stroke stops:whistle::whistle:

[Mrs Busa Pete]

i have a nice wobble 125 chamber just waiting for the motor plus alot more bits

[Slingshot]

So do you have a spare RG400 barrel?

[Mrs Busa Pete]

try 021552488 ask for eric he had 12 sets of them $100 od for piston and barrel he is located in wiuku near glen brock. i cut the barrel up to try and save money on a sleeve didnt work it was to small for the job.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

So do you have a spare RG400 barrel?

what for read new post

[Slingshot]

what for read new post

I'm thinking I might try sticking one on a GP100.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

I'm thinking I might try sticking one on a GP100.

and do what cut the waterjacket of and tig some fins on it just remember the rg has a twin head

[Yow Ling]

and do what cut the waterjacket of and tig some fins on it just remember the rg has a twin head

You need to cut the head in half. Diesel pig had a rg400 barrel on his GP125 bottom end with rear facing pipe. Bren Chchc has a rg400 barrel on his bike called Joe water cooled half a head , very very fast

[Mrs Busa Pete]

You need to cut the head in half. Diesel pig had a rg400 barrel on his GP125 bottom end with rear facing pipe. Bren Chchc has a rg400 barrel on his bike called Joe water cooled half a head , very very fast

there you go eric has 10 sets left 4 fronts 6 rears

[F5 Dave]

Slingy will have seen Bren's bike when I had it.

Word of caution about sm.e brgs.

One check that the different piston doesn't have too much latitude that the brg moves sideways. Don't RGs run with side piston washers? No drama, but a piston that allows the brg to move to the side will run just fine. . . For a while, & then untold damage as it gets out & cocks a bit, grabbing the pin in a death embrace & shoves it out the side of the piston. Don't ask me how I know.:Oops: I was younger.

Also be careful with alternative brgs. My 150 I resleeved (by Colliers) to 125 aircooled, but I had to run a bigger sme brg. It didn't have as many rollers so wasn't up for the job of high revs. I'd ask Wobbly to look at it if he has done some work for you.

You know, I wonder if you did carefully weld some fins on your stripped TZR barrel & then rebored it if that would be effective cooling. That would be a great starting point for a 125. Don't think anyone has tried that yet.

[k14]

Can you not machine up some inserts to press into the sides of the piston and then run the standard little end? Although may get some issues with different expansion rates?

[F5 Dave]

I think his pin size is the same, but the Rod is for a bigger bearing. Bearing will need to run on a plated surface.

Hmm I wonder if you got a 1mm precision sleeve if you could run that over the pin (ie inside the Bearing ID) & use the std TZR bearing? Would have to be a tight fit on the pin & would be a pig to insert/remove the pin.


You couldn't fit it outside ie: sleeve the rod, as it wouldn't oil well, . . . unless you cut some slots & likely that would hook up on the bearing.

[TZ350]

Can you not machine up some inserts to press into the sides of the piston and then run the standard little end? Although may get some issues with different expansion rates?

I have seen this done with different 2-stroke pistons, also Speedpro has had some success with this in a 4-stroke.

.

[F5 Dave]

I'm not sure I understand. care to elaborate?


Perhaps machine the piston to a larger pin & make some end caps, I think that is what Mike did with his old CB360 erm back in the day & is commonplace in drag cars I understand, but still not sure exactly what is entailed.

Bugger! that would have helped with my 125.

So what did you think of my weld fins on idea TZ? Got you thinking yet?

[Mrs Busa Pete]

I think his pin size is the same, but the Rod is for a bigger bearing. Bearing will need to run on a plated surface.

Hmm I wonder if you got a 1mm precision sleeve if you could run that over the pin (ie inside the Bearing ID) & use the std TZR bearing? Would have to be a tight fit on the pin & would be a pig to insert/remove the pin.


You couldn't fit it outside ie: sleeve the rod, as it wouldn't oil well, . . . unless you cut some slots & likely that would hook up on the bearing.

theres no need to bush the pin or rod theres a large range of inside to out side diamater needel roller bearings avalable

[F5 Dave]

Yes, that is how I did mine. But that didn't cut it, too few rollers & possibly too heavy.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

I'm not sure I understand. care to elaborate?


Perhaps machine the piston to a larger pin & make some end caps, I think that is what Mike did with his old CB360 erm back in the day & is commonplace in drag cars I understand, but still not sure exactly what is entailed.

Bugger! that would have helped with my 125.

So what did you think of my weld fins on idea TZ? Got you thinking yet?

some guys in austallia cut the water jacket of a 125 cc and tiged fins on to qualifiy for a catagory

[Yow Ling]

Pete Jones has an engine like you describe Dave. Its an RG150 with the jacket turned off. He then got a bit of aprox 8 inch dia ally bar made some fins in it with a parting off style tool, bored it to the cylinder od and pressed or shrunk it on. That pretty much covers it .

[Slingshot]

Slingy will have seen Bren's bike when I had it.

I didn't see it, but I wish I did. Actually, Chris mentioned it the other day and it got me thinking. Mind you...priority is to get the bloody thing back together and running :)

[Mrs Busa Pete]

colliers started mashining my barrel yesterday morning back up here mid next week

[Mrs Busa Pete]

Yes, that is how I did mine. But that didn't cut it, too few rollers & possibly too heavy.

i got the 142017 cage roller bearing from auckland bearings on monday $10+gst each load rated to 1100 as aposed to the 141820 [sleave requierd]with a load rating of 860.
not as many rollers as the tzrs one just biger diamater

[Buckets4Me]

Yes, that is how I did mine. But that didn't cut it, too few rollers & possibly too heavy.

you have been warned :done:

just dont say that Dave didn't tell you so

na realy I have no idear what will happen but F5Dave did something similar and destroyed the engine ???? (go ask him)

hope you have the bike up and running soon

EDIT: re read you post and you are already aware of that so dont mind me I'm just trying to get my post numbers up :P

[TZ350]

Perhaps machine the piston to a larger pin & make some end caps, I think that is what Mike did with his old CB360 erm back in the day & is commonplace in drag cars I understand, but still not sure exactly what is entailed.


Pic-1 A piston and sleeve with bronze bushes from Speedpros old Honda racer.

Pic-2 A close up of the bronze piston pin sleeve.

Pic-3 New steel sleeves. The sleeves cup over the end of the pin and are held in the piston by the circlips in the normal way.

I have seen this done with 2-stroke pistons too.

.

[TZ350]

So what did you think of my weld fins on idea TZ? Got you thinking yet?

I have figured out a way to air cool a RGV250 or NSR cylinder without cutting the water jacket off and welding fins to it. In fact the method I have in mind entails very little modification of the barrel itself but uses lots of copper. :soon:

I am in the market for a late model NSR250 cylinder and power valves.

.

[bucketracer]

Handy explination and animation of how a 2-Stroke works.

http://www.southernskies.net/page_info/runningtwostrokeengine.html

.

[speedpro]

The word "supercharge" is used a few times :rolleyes:

[gav]

Rut roh ......

[Henk]

Shall I get the ball rolling then


Expansion chambers are not forced induction blah blah blah ......

[F5 Dave]

Pic-1 A piston and sleeve with bronze bushes from Speedpros old Honda racer.

Pic-2 A close up of the bronze piston pin sleeve.

Pic-3 New steel sleeves. The sleeves cup over the end of the pin and are held in the piston by the circlips in the normal way.

I have seen this done with 2-stroke pistons too.

.

um, yeah so this could convert a piston with a big pin to a smaller pin for a rod bearing combo. looks good solution.

. . .But the problem here is that the rod wants a larger pin for the bearing that the rod uses as std.

[Yow Ling]

could you just bore the gudgon pin holes in the piston a bit bigger, or is that dicing with death?

[TZ350]

um, yeah so this could convert a piston with a big pin to a smaller pin for a rod bearing combo. . . .But the problem here is that the rod wants a larger pin for the bearing that the rod uses as std.

Ok so you are just being picky now, right!. :bleh:

Why do you need a cage? many roller bearings run without them. Many old British singles big ends used crowded rollers and no cages.

I have not seen this done, but could you fit lose rollers with two retaining washers either side like you see in a RGV250.

Assembly should not be a problem, I would use a short dummy pin that held the washers and rollers in position and which gets pushed out as the piston pin is pushed through.

So really the question is, can a crowded roller work in the little end of a 2-stroke.

.

[F5 Dave]

Argh!!! a short dummy pin is a stunning idea. Wish I'd thought of that!

Kevin Cameron (urgh, maybe it was Gordon Jennings) had written somewhere that it worked well but he had seen "strong men weep with frustration" attempting to assemble an all roller no cage bearing. So the only concern would be is the diameter difference lucky enough that is makes for enough rollers not to be sloppy?

But I'm still a bit uncertain how these would go in a high speed engine. I mean the problem is they all need to roll in the same direction but under load the closest ones would be pushed apart a little but that would crowd the ones opposite to the load & they want to drive each other in opposite directions. This isn't a problem with a cage. Maybe it is ok.

[TZ350]

But I'm still a bit uncertain how these would go in a high speed engine. I mean the problem is they all need to roll in the same direction but under load the closest ones would be pushed apart a little but that would crowd the ones opposite to the load & they want to drive each other in opposite directions. This isn't a problem with a cage. Maybe it is ok.

I am not sure either. but old British singles used crowded rollers in the bigend. But I think high peformance ones like the Manx went to cages.

Also its an oscillating action in the little end compared to a rotating + oscillating action at the big end.

So not sure realy,

But if it was me I would give the crowded roller a go before using an automotive/industrial caged needle roller in the little end.

People have forgotten how unreliable motorcycle little end cages were in race bikes in the early days.

.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

my barrel is ready to be paid for now the tecnition that does rotorys and 2 strokes said it should go like a basted . the cage roller bearings that i got dident quiet do it have to give it to the work shop at work to do something with it then it only leaves the head

[jasonu]

try 021552488 ask for eric he had 12 sets of them $100 od for piston and barrel he is located in wiuku near glen brock. i cut the barrel up to try and save money on a sleeve didnt work it was to small for the job.

Is that $100 for one barrel and piston set or $100 for all 12 sets? (just being hopeful)

[jasonu]

You know, I wonder if you did carefully weld some fins on your stripped TZR barrel & then rebored it if that would be effective cooling. That would be a great starting point for a 125. Don't think anyone has tried that yet.[/QUOTE]

Most likely no one has tried it because it is a seriously backwards move

[Pumba]

Is that $100 for one barrel and piston set or $100 for all 12 sets? (just being hopeful)

I can answer that because I know, it is only for 1 barrel and piston.

Christ if it was for all 12 I dont think they wouild of hung round for long:eek5:

[bucketracer]

Dad's figured out how to air cool a RGV cylinder without a lot of modification, :eek5: next years project after Taupo apparently. :yes:

[Mrs Busa Pete]

I have hade the head welded up and the team from work mashined it back to suit of to get head gasket tomorrow then just fit the pipe to the frame . Do i have to get the sleaved barrel verafied or do i just have to present the print out from the reconditioners .

[F5 Dave]

My advice, Get a witness who is known in the racing circle so if it comes up "yup Johno saw it & it was 50mm or whatever".

[Mrs Busa Pete]

My advice, Get a witness who is known in the racing circle so if it comes up "yup Johno saw it & it was 50mm or whatever".

so if i get john conner to check it im ok then

[Mrs Busa Pete]

[QUOTE=F5 Dave;1129354279]I think his pin size is the same, but the Rod is for a bigger bearing. Bearing will need to run on a plated surface.

Hmm I wonder if you got a 1mm precision sleeve if you could run that over the pin (ie inside the Bearing ID) & use the std TZR bearing? Would have to be a tight fit on the pin & would be a pig to insert/remove the pin.


this is what we have done will see how it goes for the first 5 hours and asses when we change rings

[F5 Dave]

Let us know how that works out, should be fine.


Re JC, can't see anyone questioning him if he says he's seen it, but anyone like DaveD or Rob or Keith would be as fine.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

took the barrel and head and botem end to mt wellington last weekend showed john he said he has never dune this before may be he should be anyway hes happy with it gave me some advice and sent me on my way.
put it together on the sunday and started to fit it to the frame sorted out the position and hunted through my bits and found a ysr mount for the lower rear fixed it at work and cut a spacer on friday .
took the mounts of the mc22 rolling frame that i got for a bucket frame and used them for the top head mount will have to get them welded on or can i bult them through the frame need to cut spacers for here allso may use threaded rod with nylocks for this top bult or get one made at work.
had to cut out the top rear mount so the carb and top of motor could fit will see how it goes as to puting one back in the area .
just a case of the chamber now angles and length and clearance that sort of thing i realy wont to use the wobbly one i all ready have with a new front section .

[Mrs Busa Pete]

not to shore on the over hang to the frame

[Mrs Busa Pete]

got a roll of wire from work and set to making rings to match the diferent diamaters of the chamber i have. using a long spring i fixed each ring at the apropriate length holding the first ring at the outlet port and bending it around to suit then lock wiring it in place and on to the next ring and so on in minites i hade a template to work from

[Pumba]

Looking good but the real question is does it run?

[Mrs Busa Pete]

Looking good but the real question is does it run?

yes it runs just crosing the Ts and doting the Is first not going to rush it should be serculating on the practice day of the 2 hour

[Mrs Busa Pete]

made some changes to the top mount it just seamed to be i bit of a load for a long 8mm rod .
had a go at the pipe just have to tak it together then seam weld it plus a patch where i stufed up

[Mrs Busa Pete]

more pics of pipe

[speedpro]

That pipe looks short and also looks like it gets fat real quick. It'll be interesting to see what revs it wants to work at. I'm picking - lots.

[R6_kid]

Looking good! At first I thought the pipe was going to give you ground clearance issues but that last pic shows the alignment much better!

[F5 Dave]

Yes it does look good.

I also thought the pipe looks pretty short. Even with the muffler touching the diffuser. Have you measured it? What sort of revs are you hoping to max out at? It's the header that looks short.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

Yes it does look good.

I also thought the pipe looks pretty short. Even with the muffler touching the diffuser. Have you measured it? What sort of revs are you hoping to max out at? It's the header that looks short.

its not that short the motor is just tiny its a wobblie custom for a rotex rx 125kart .
its a starting point for now and matches the yamaha standard pipe just a 10th of the weight around 900mm long

[Hinny]

Looking good. :yes:

[Mrs Busa Pete]

That pipe looks short and also looks like it gets fat real quick. It'll be interesting to see what revs it wants to work at. I'm picking - lots.

its 55mm barrel to outlet port
its 780mm chamber
and the stinger is inside the chamber plus the mufler

[Yow Ling]

How did you make the sleeve fr the piston pin? is it hardened?

[TZ350]

its 55mm barrel to outlet port
its 780mm chamber
and the stinger is inside the chamber plus the mufler

It does look short, but 55+780 = 835, much the same as the RS125 pipe I am going to try.

.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

How did you make the sleeve fr the piston pin? is it hardened?

I just sent the barrel and the piston to colliers in levin and it came back ready to go.

[Yow Ling]

Any news on this bike?
Gone a bit quiet round here

[Mrs Busa Pete]

working to much and missed taupo plus xmas. will pull my finger out for feb at mt wellington
Any news on this bike?
Gone a bit quiet round here

[Pumba]

working to much and missed taupo plus xmas. will pull my finger out for feb at mt wellington

haha, tui moment

[Bert]

I'm looking forward to the write up on how this all goes.
I wander if this is the answer for beating fxrs? could 30hp be achievable? so many rhetorical questions sorry.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

ITS ALIVE
spent 1 hour on monday half of that with a earth in the wrong place to get to a point that if i pull the choke out and give the back wheel half a spin on the rear stand it fires up and reves if i only had a tacko on it to see how far it reves .theres some electronic hour meters and tacko on trade me that should do the job .
just have to customize the radiator then of i go to a track near me for the acid test

[Yow Ling]

Keep us posted.

[Hinny]

working to much and missed taupo plus xmas. will pull my finger out for feb at mt wellington
Two thousand and eleven
Good things take time.

[Bren_chch]

can you make a short video, would love to hear this running!

[TZ350]

Another 2-Stroke special....:clap:

[Bert]

hmmm, cant wait for the dyno results...

Two stroke revival. :Punk:

Just thinking /reading back over this thread, could it be possible to machine the piston out to fit the TZR pin ?
looking at the standard rg400 piston, there is at lease 2mm-2.5mm of significant structure around the standard pin, as you only need to take it out to 16mm, (& cut new clip groves). could this be an option? rather than bearings or bushes?? or is there the potential for this to turn to custard?
(sorry I'm not an engineer).

B

[bucketracer]

The trick I have seen Dad use for boring piston pin bosses is to mount the piston on the lathe saddle using a pin in the tail stock to align it and an adjustable tip boring bar in the chuck. The bosses were sometimes honed sometimes not, After the piston pin bosses were bored right through the piston was then mounted on an expanding pin held in the chuck to machine the circlip groves, one side at a time.

[Bert]

The trick I have seen Dad use for boring piston pin bosses is to mount the piston on the lathe saddle using a pin in the tail stock to align it and an adjustable tip boring bar in the chuck. The bosses were sometimes honed sometimes not, After the piston pin bosses were bored right through the piston was then mounted on an expanding pin held in the chuck to machine the circlip groves, one side at a time.

(Sorry I'm not an engineer):blink:

but from what i gather that was a yes in theory?

[gatch]

The trick I have seen Dad use for boring piston pin bosses is to mount the piston on the lathe saddle using a pin in the tail stock to align it and an adjustable tip boring bar in the chuck. The bosses were sometimes honed sometimes not, After the piston pin bosses were bored right through the piston was then mounted on an expanding pin held in the chuck to machine the circlip groves, one side at a time.

That sound like an awful lot of fucking around ? Could you use the current gudgeon pin in a big drill chuck on a radial drill, use that to get the pin hole vertical and just hold it in a regular vice (with soft jaws) and attack it with an adjustable reamer ? Or do the same thing in a mill ?

[Mrs Busa Pete]

some photos of the electrics

[Hinny]

Did you use a laser to cut out that Aluminium plate? ... or did you just tear it with your teeth?

[Buckets4Me]

Did you use a laser to cut out that Aluminium plate? ... or did you just tear it with your teeth?

it takes a lot of time and effort to get it looking just right (like a bucket should)

I would say that was 3 days worth of work on CAD just to get the cuts to look just right (much like he had torn it with his teath)

then all the expensive vinal that looks like ducktape
his sponsers would be proud

hope to see this running at Mt Welly this month ?????

[Hinny]

I would say that was 3 days worth of work on CAD just to get the cuts to look just right (much like he had torn it with his teeth)


Well he is a perfectionist.
No effort spared.

[TZ350]

some photos of the electrics

Interesting project, building your own, dreams of glory, its my idea, of how to enjoy bucket racing. I am looking forward to seeing it on the track. And it should add a bit of interest to the next TRRS.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

Did you use a laser to cut out that Aluminium plate? ... or did you just tear it with your teeth?

hay i used an angle grinder and then bent it on the towbar finished of with pliers [some trimming to come]

[Mrs Busa Pete]

it takes a lot of time and effort to get it looking just right (like a bucket should)

I would say that was 3 days worth of work on CAD just to get the cuts to look just right (much like he had torn it with his teath)

then all the expensive vinal that looks like ducktape
his sponsers would be proud

hope to see this running at Mt Welly this month ?????

so do i

theres a pair of large cable ties on the power valve unit as well not just duck tape

[Mrs Busa Pete]

Interesting project, building your own, dreams of glory, its my idea, of how to enjoy bucket racing. I am looking forward to seeing it on the track. And it should add a bit of interest to the next TRRS.

speed pro comented on a deflector under the tank for air flow less resistance so i just killed 2birds with one stone allso thought the plate would deflect any water from the radiator hose in a werst case sinareo.
the radiator wasn't ready in time to pun it in over easter and as for trrs i will be up at the bay of island from the 26/12 to the 9/1 may have to send it down with criss lost to use dont know as yet

[Bert]

Dredging up past threads, but has this project made it to the track???

If so, how has it been going?

[Mrs Busa Pete]

Well i think it's still going but no it hasn't made it to the track.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

Dredging up past threads, but has this project made it to the track???

If so, how has it been going?

its all good some final jetting to sort 99% sorted 65hour work weeks for the last 12months and the new boat dosn,t leave much time but trying to sort it

[Bert]

understandable with those type of hours! I feel your pain somewhat. I'm getting closer to the end of my build, but I doubt it (or me) will be ready for Taupo (A bit of a shame really).

I'm looking forward to see what the TZRs can do...

[Mrs Busa Pete]

for sale on trade me to many other things on my plate that are taking up all my time so im puting this up for sale'
its a runner just needs some fine tuning .


..http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=359396998

[Hinny]

Sad to see it go. Hope the buyer has all the fun you had earned by building it.
Have you caught any fish yet?

[Mrs Busa Pete]

Sad to see it go. Hope the buyer has all the fun you had earned by building it.
Have you caught any fish yet?

We sure have. As for the buyer they have made no contact at this point and not replyed to our email.

[Hinny]

As for the buyer they have made no contact at this point and not replyed to our email.
Mmmm tempting.
A few too many unfinished projects here tho'.
Haven't had a single pizza party this year as the building materials for the new pergola and the summer house have completely taken over the back area. :blink:

[Mrs Busa Pete]

Mmmm tempting.
A few too many unfinished projects here tho'.
Haven't had a single pizza party this year as the building materials for the new pergola and the summer house have completely taken over the back area. :blink:

Seems the wife has said no. So bike not sold.

[Henk]

That sucks

[Buckets4Me]

Seems the wife has said no. So bike not sold.


sell it to cotswold then

[cotswold]

sell it to cotswold then


Ahh Shite, too late for me, I bid it up to where I saw it and lost out, so changed tack, wouldn't mind the motor the motor though.:violin:

[Henk]

And I wouldn't mind that frame you bought. Got it home yet?

[cotswold]

And I wouldn't mind that frame you bought. Got it home yet?


Man with van picking it up on tuesday, just need a propulsion unit.

[Buckets4Me]

looks like the bike is up for sale again

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/performance/auction-435258956.htm