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Voltaire
14th August 2009, 10:51
I take it this new rule applies to all motorcycles regardless of age?:bash:

Probably have to fit cyclists lights to my old Beemer for daytime riding round town to avoid battery flatness.:crybaby:

Ixion
14th August 2009, 10:57
I'm researching the possibility of getting some sort of LED lights that will comply. Stupid bloody law.

p.dath
14th August 2009, 13:27
I take it this new rule applies to all motorcycles regardless of age?:bash:

Probably have to fit cyclists lights to my old Beemer for daytime riding round town to avoid battery flatness.:crybaby:

Would you consider your bike a "classic"? If so, perhaps there is some kind of exemption you can apply for.

Beeza
15th August 2009, 07:24
The sensible thing would be to exempt all bikes made in the 20th Century from this headlights-on law. That way, riders of bikes which have charging systems not designed for lights-on running at low speeds won't be fined if they choose to leave their lights off during the day. E-mail Minister Steven Joyce with this suggestion before the bill is enacted.

Grahameeboy
15th August 2009, 07:34
I think the Law is a great idea but the Govt are saying the reason is due to increase in accidents yet most modern bikes have automatic lights anyway so clearly their take on stats is flawed.

Could it not be that there are more cars on the road and more scooters which are more exposed to accidents...

jellywrestler
15th August 2009, 08:21
Probably have to fit cyclists lights to my old Beemer for daytime riding round town to avoid battery flatness.:crybaby:

the law is for motorcycles not earth moving equipment so you should be ok...

What?
15th August 2009, 10:30
I take it this new rule applies to all motorcycles regardless of age?

http://landtransport.govt.nz/rules/q-and-a/road-user-amendment-rule-2009.html#4

Mopeds and motorcycles riders are required to ride with their headlamps on or, if fitted, daytime running lamps, during daylight hours. This requirement applies only to riders of mopeds or motorcycles manufactured after 1 January1980.

Beeza
15th August 2009, 12:47
http://landtransport.govt.nz/rules/q-and-a/road-user-amendment-rule-2009.html#4

Mopeds and motorcycles riders are required to ride with their headlamps on or, if fitted, daytime running lamps, during daylight hours. This requirement applies only to riders of mopeds or motorcycles manufactured after 1 January1980.

1980 is too early and unrealistic. Many machines made after 1980 and before 1990 were never designed to run with their lights on all the time. It's only in the nineties that some countries began making new laws requiring permanent lights-on operation and motorbike manufacturers then began uprating their charging systems to cope with this new reality.

scumdog
15th August 2009, 13:00
1980 is too early and unrealistic. Many machines made after 1980 and before 1990 were never designed to run with their lights on all the time. It's only in the nineties that some countries began making new laws requiring permanent lights-on operation and motorbike manufacturers then began uprating their charging systems to cope with this new reality.

My '81 Sportster only had a generator but handled the headlight AND two spotlights, the earlier Sportsters had the same electrical systems.

But yes, there will be bikes that will find it tough - although LEDs will help.

YellowDog
15th August 2009, 13:41
1980 is too early and unrealistic. Many machines made after 1980 and before 1990 were never designed to run with their lights on all the time. It's only in the nineties that some countries began making new laws requiring permanent lights-on operation and motorbike manufacturers then began uprating their charging systems to cope with this new reality.
I had not ever considered this as a realistic argument, but I suppose this is correct. A lot of older bikes will not have a suitable electrical system.

You guys will just have to peddle harder :lol:

Motu
15th August 2009, 13:49
I think 1990 would be a better cut off point,by the '90's most bikes were hard wired and their systems able to cope.BMW's had good charging systems for the time,but I think my '87 is still borderline.I like to run for a few km after starting and a few km before stopping to recover starting drain,and to top up the battery before shutting down for who knows how long.Also,I forget to turn them on sometimes - I don't see why I should get a $100 fine for being a doddery old fart....

slofox
15th August 2009, 13:59
Genuine question here:

Something that interests me regarding not being capable of running with lights on during the daytime...How do these bikes get on with night riding? Are they only capable of running lights at night for a limited period?
Even my original 1953 Ariel could run with its lights on at night and therefore during the day as well...despite having the most primitive of electrical systems...I rode from Christchurch to Dunedin at night once and the lights did keep going (amazingly enough I admit).
I don't think any bike I have owned would have been in too much trouble having its lights on during the day. Apart from the times ( i.e. mostly) when the CVC regulator was on the blink of course...

Motu
15th August 2009, 14:22
Put a voltmeter on your bike and ride around,I think you will be surprised at how low the voltage goes....but watch the road as well too! Marginal is fine so long as everything is as new - on a 30 year old bike everything is far from new.

ntst8
15th August 2009, 16:52
[QUOTE=slofox;1129355780]Genuine question here:

Something that interests me regarding not being capable of running with lights on during the daytime...How do these bikes get on with night riding? Are they only capable of running lights at night for a limited period?

For older bikes a major problem can be prolonged around town running when revs don't get high enough to spin the alternator (or whatever) fast enough for the power made to exceed the usage. Putting in a higher output bulb so that you can actually see something in front at night only makes this worse. Plus as Motu said, these things ain't new so you're never sure what is going to work and how well or for how long.
Before i upgraded to a 3 phase alt my Commando struggled to generate more power than it used around town, i imagine older bikes would be worse again.
Anything newer than 1980 is a mystery to me, can't comment there.

Paul in NZ
15th August 2009, 17:20
Oh FFS.... Apart from a few dire mopeds nearly all old bikes can run with headlights on 100% with a little care and stuff all expense...

The 1970 TR6C runs it's original alternator but relays, H4 bulb, solid state rectifier mean no flat batter ever...

Ixion
15th August 2009, 18:32
Genuine question here:

Something that interests me regarding not being capable of running with lights on during the daytime...How do these bikes get on with night riding? Are they only capable of running lights at night for a limited period?
Even my original 1953 Ariel could run with its lights on at night and therefore during the day as well...despite having the most primitive of electrical systems...I rode from Christchurch to Dunedin at night once and the lights did keep going (amazingly enough I admit).
I don't think any bike I have owned would have been in too much trouble having its lights on during the day. Apart from the times ( i.e. mostly) when the CVC regulator was on the blink of course...

Two considerations

One, your Ariel had a magneto for ignition. SO your ignition did not need the battery at all.

Second, all bikes after the acetylene era are of course quite capable of running their headlight during daylight hours. Or, during night time hours.

The problem comes when you need to run it *constantly*. The old dynamo (and, pace PiNZ, early alternator) systems were not able to keep up with the current demands of ignition (assuming coil ignition) headlamp, taillamp and stoplamp until the motor was running at about 3000 rpm (very roughly).If then.

Which is fine on the open road. But prolonged time around town, the battery *WILL* be drawn down.

Now, in the original design mode, lights on only at night, that's no problem. Go out at night, lot of round town work, headlamp on, sitting at the lights foot on the brake, battery gets drawn down. But, fine, it's not going to completely flatten in one night's riding. Get home, go out next morning in daytime, no headlamp, dyno recharges battery. All good. Repeat as often as required. That's the paradigm the designers worked to.

But now, headlamp on during day: run it down at night, next day when you go out, it *doesn't* get a chance to recharge. Instead, it runs down a bit more. And a bit more the next day. And a bit more the next night. Repeat. And before too long, the battery is too low to supply a decent spark at startup. Bike no start. Much much worse of course for early 80s bikes with no kickstart, only an electric starter, and still marginal alternators.

Noone is suggesting that older bikes headlamps will NOT WORK during daytime. Or that a single day will flatten the battery. But, unless you only use the bike for open road work, after a while it WILL run down. Probably at the most inconvenient moment.

slofox
15th August 2009, 19:02
Two considerations

One, your Ariel had a magneto for ignition. SO your ignition did not need the battery at all.

Second, all bikes after the acetylene era are of course quite capable of running their headlight during daylight hours. Or, during night time hours.

The problem comes when you need to run it *constantly*. The old dynamo (and, pace PiNZ, early alternator) systems were not able to keep up with the current demands of ignition (assuming coil ignition) headlamp, taillamp and stoplamp until the motor was running at about 3000 rpm (very roughly).If then.

Which is fine on the open road. But prolonged time around town, the battery *WILL* be drawn down.

Now, in the original design mode, lights on only at night, that's no problem. Go out at night, lot of round town work, headlamp on, sitting at the lights foot on the brake, battery gets drawn down. But, fine, it's not going to completely flatten in one night's riding. Get home, go out next morning in daytime, no headlamp, dyno recharges battery. All good. Repeat as often as required. That's the paradigm the designers worked to.

But now, headlamp on during day: run it down at night, next day when you go out, it *doesn't* get a chance to recharge. Instead, it runs down a bit more. And a bit more the next day. And a bit more the next night. Repeat. And before too long, the battery is too low to supply a decent spark at startup. Bike no start. Much much worse of course for early 80s bikes with no kickstart, only an electric starter, and still marginal alternators.

Noone is suggesting that older bikes headlamps will NOT WORK during daytime. Or that a single day will flatten the battery. But, unless you only use the bike for open road work, after a while it WILL run down. Probably at the most inconvenient moment.

Hey, thanks Ixion, that makes good sense.

Yes, the Ariel did have a magneto - about the only thing electrical that worked well actually - so as you say, no ignition current drawn from charging system.

Dynamo worked fine mostly but regulators were always up the shit. When, on rare occasions, they did work, the dynamo would drive the lights without a battery (as I found out when the battery fell off one night..we won't go into that episode either thank you very much). No brake lights either in them dim dark days, nor indimacators neither. And of course kick start. So yes, there was very little to power.

I stand enlightened...(no pun intended).

Dodgyiti
15th August 2009, 22:25
Oh FFS.... Apart from a few dire mopeds nearly all old bikes can run with headlights on 100% with a little care and stuff all expense...

...

And you can honestly say running your Guzzi around town, stop start, short run then start it up then short run your battery is fine?
Have you ever tried it for a few weeks?
I use my one for that type of stuff and with the headlight on all the time, like when its overcast or poor visibility or winter -the battery starts to go flat.
3,200rpm- correct me if I'm wrong- is the point when the charging system fully kicks in on the LeMans. Stop start around Auckland and you are barely doing that for seconds at a time. Add to that the constant drain from starting it up and there will be a time to push start it.
Fun fun fun.

Open road, not a problem and I run 55/60 blue light halogen. I just hate my choices being taken away from me.

MaxB
15th August 2009, 23:50
http://landtransport.govt.nz/rules/q-and-a/road-user-amendment-rule-2009.html#4

Mopeds and motorcycles riders are required to ride with their headlamps on or, if fitted, daytime running lamps, during daylight hours. This requirement applies only to riders of mopeds or motorcycles manufactured after 1 January1980.

Thanks for that link. My ol' girl is '76 so I can ride surrounded by darkness!

I'll probably fit running lights to the other bikes, just don't feel comfortable on low beam all the time.

A guy at work made a good point. Headlamps are designed for lighting up the road ahead. A lot of dip lenses are very severe. Running lights are designed to be seen and have lenses focussed for this purpose. Why not make new bikes with running lights from now on and the problem would sort itself out in time without the need for yet another law.

FJRider
16th August 2009, 00:36
A few of the "other" changes being made ... very interesting. Cyclists will no longer be required to indicate a change of direction at roundabouts..... mmmmm with the reason given ... its too difficult for them ????

and posties will soon be legally allowed to ride on the footpath.

scumdog
16th August 2009, 09:04
A guy at work made a good point. Headlamps are designed for lighting up the road ahead. A lot of dip lenses are very severe. Running lights are designed to be seen and have lenses focussed for this purpose.

Hence why normajeane (CB) and I have them on our bikes.

A headlight beam does not spread out far enough to be easily seen by somebody on a side-road during the day for exmple - running lights are way more visible and having two of them plus the headlight really helps the 'being visible' thing:niceone:

laRIKin
16th August 2009, 09:59
http://landtransport.govt.nz/rules/q-and-a/road-user-amendment-rule-2009.html#4

Mopeds and motorcycles riders are required to ride with their headlamps on or, if fitted, daytime running lamps, during daylight hours. This requirement applies only to riders of mopeds or motorcycles manufactured after 1 January1980.

Bugger my old Moto Guzzi MKIII is an 81, but the charging system is a lot older than that. (Mid sixty's early seventy's)

On the open road I'm fine around town it will not be charging as you have to pull higher rev's (about 2500) to get it to work.
Guzzi's need a good battery to start the old girls.

Got a good reason to speed around town now.
Or could be looking for a push start.:(

RDjase
16th August 2009, 23:40
I read a article some were(trying to find it) about a study on day time bike headlight use that said it made it more difficult to judge the distance of an approaching motorcycle and it made the bike look FURTHER AWAY than it actualy was. It carried on that in some states (US or AUS, cant remember till i find article) were compulsary headlight use was made legal, that there was more accidents(from people saying they thought the bike was futher away) and they changed the laws back.

Has anyone else read or heard of it before?

I ride with my lights on , My duke is a US model and always (mostly) did when i used my LC on the road

Paul in NZ
17th August 2009, 05:39
And you can honestly say running your Guzzi around town, stop start, short run then start it up then short run your battery is fine?
Have you ever tried it for a few weeks?
.

Yes - never had an issue but then I maintain my electrical system 'cos I'm an electrical type.

If its an issue - by a cheap battery tender and wire in a socket and top off the battery at night - all the bits can be upgraded cheaper than almost anything else on the bike but the thing is most folks would rather spend on paint or engine mods...

Dynamos can be repaired, replaced, regulators replaced with solid state etc. - it aint that hard. You could rig a smaller running light to satisfy the law.

YellowDog
17th August 2009, 06:12
What might be interesting to find out is whether the headlight on all of the time rule has an illumination power standard associated to it.

I was just thinking that if the low watt parking light was illuminated whilst riding, this would not present any overload issues.

Some have suggested an AUX LED which would be an easy solution, but may compromise the appearance.

Paul in NZ
17th August 2009, 19:12
I was thinking about my reply this morning (early) and though - hmm - being a bit unfair here as where I live means a highway trip is needed to go nearly anyplace.

BUT - the Guzzi is my highway bike and it has highway lights - if I was mainly town running I'd go for a lower wattage up front maybe...

Installing relays, extra grounds, applying the fixes in guzziology, decent alt brushes and a regular contact clean plus a clean of the diode board keeps everything ticking along OK though (Mk2 has handy VM)

Gains can be made everywhere on all old bike by using a few modern tricks.

Dargor
17th August 2009, 20:14
It will be funny if crash numbers dont go down in the next couple of years. Then we will know that this is a useless law, and it will stick arround for centuries to come and be a problem for only a few people.

Voltaire
17th August 2009, 21:42
Here it is...after many minutes in the garage....introducing the " Joyce Helmlight"

This should suffice to save you classic bike owners a hundy when the cops pull you over....thats assuming you are not already broken down on the side of the road already.

Combines all the safety features of Cork lined open face pudding bowl helmet with cool Bomber Command ( Dambusters ) goggles.

Be safe and stylish this summer with a New "Joyce Helmlight"

" You'll not be a dimwit with a Helmlight"

CookMySock
17th August 2009, 21:51
A headlight beam does not spread out far enough to be easily seen by somebody on a side-road during the day for exmple - running lights are way more visible and having two of them plus the headlight really helps the 'being visible' thing:niceone:Same thing occurs with projector headlamps, particularly so the cheap Hyosung ones - the focus isn't that good, and consequently they are bright in all directions - great for being seen. Add to that a HID bulb and theres no way to hide now.

Steve

What?
18th August 2009, 07:38
I read a article some were(trying to find it) about a study on day time bike headlight use that said it made it more difficult to judge the distance of an approaching motorcycle and it made the bike look FURTHER AWAY than it actualy was.

I have come across a few articles on the subject over the years - they all said this was the danger of using high beam in daytime. One mag (Cycle World, I think, but don't quote me), actually went so far as to get a heap of people to estimate how far away a bike was with headlight alternately on high and then low beams. The results were , well, let's say I never ride using high beam in the daytime...

Beeza
18th August 2009, 15:11
So, your 70 Trophy has been given some fairly large non-standard modifications to the electrical system to avoid running down the battery? And, of course, your bike is kick-started, meaning the battery is never pushed anywhere near its limits by a starter motor spinning two or three big high-comp pistons . Hardly in the same category to an electric-start only pre-1990 bike like a Guzzi, BMW, Laverda etc is it? You really do NOT want to be caught in city traffic with a stalled bike and a flat battery because you've stupidly been running the damned thing with the headlight on in broad daylight in stop-start city traffic. And to have to bump-start it with a flat battery.

No, just move the lights-on law to post-1990 bikes and everyone is happy.

Dodgyiti
18th August 2009, 16:29
BUT - the Guzzi is my highway bike and it has highway lights - if I was mainly town running I'd go for a lower wattage up front maybe...


Yes all true Paul, and I could do that, but the best thing I have done for night riding safety on the open road is put a Xenon blue 65/55 + relay,and it would be dissapointing to go backwards because it's great!
Done my best with the entire electrical system (new quality everything) as well but it does take a decent amount of revs to get it to produce a decent charge when the lights are on.
There is an upgrade for the rotor, and the possibility of machining the front engine cover to fit a 1995 alt/rotor but what a mission. I just finished 2 years of meticulous work with no expense spared to have a better than standard bike and I don't even wanna touch it.
Being shaft drive and producing 185psi per pot when it's not even bedded in yet is a tall ask to push start for a 74kg beast like me :killingme

Max Headroom
18th August 2009, 18:38
I replaced the parking light bulb on my bike with a 20watt halogen bulb three years ago. (Who on earth actually USES parking lights on a bike for parking anyway????) The twenty-watter looks damn' near as bright as the headlight bulb does on dip.

I'm concerned about the cut-off year inasmuch as it involves the car-driving public. If I'm legally riding my 1976 model bike and some pillock pulls out of a side-road in front of me, and then slides out the "he didn't have his headlight on" card while I'm extracting myself from his door, I'm not going to be happy . . . . and I certainly don't fancy being a test case in court. ("Your Honour, Mr Headroom actually HAD a working headight on his bike and CHOSE not to use it." "Guilty. Next case.")

I'm also not happy about the legal responsibility shifting from dopey/blind/distracted drivers to sensible riders. Legally required compulsory Hi-Vis riding gear will be next.

This law change serves more as window dressing than a constructive means of reducing accidents. It has more to do with the gummint being seen to be doing something positive rather than thinking through the issues with some degree of understanding. Steven Joyce is a smart guy and I am happy with most of his decisions so far, but I think this one slid under his radar.

Paul in NZ
18th August 2009, 21:11
So, your 70 Trophy has been given some fairly large non-standard modifications to the electrical system to avoid running down the battery? And, of course, your bike is kick-started, meaning the battery is never pushed anywhere near its limits by a starter motor spinning two or three big high-comp pistons . Hardly in the same category to an electric-start only pre-1990 bike like a Guzzi, BMW, Laverda etc is it? You really do NOT want to be caught in city traffic with a stalled bike and a flat battery because you've stupidly been running the damned thing with the headlight on in broad daylight in stop-start city traffic. And to have to bump-start it with a flat battery.

No, just move the lights-on law to post-1990 bikes and everyone is happy.

Nope - its never run down the battery in the 20 years and 100,000 miles I've owned it. But like everything, electical bits get tired and when they get tired they get replaced and /or upgraded. The alternator stator is the original single phase, it still runs a zenner but the rectifier was poked (mechanical failure) and the wiring loom was worn out so I went new with that.

I made an alloy earth bar behind the battery to provide a std earth point and mount the relays (underneath). Few extra earth leads etc. But only did that so I could run H4 halogen in the 6" headlamp

Everything is plug in and the whole lot could got back to bog stock in an afternoon...

For what it's worth, my 'modern bike' is a 1980 Mk2 leMans which IS in the category described. Yes, I can push start it btw, it's a technique, not strength, you have to let the mass of the bike do the work... If you think thats tough try a 810 kitted norton running clipons, 11.1 pistons and big carbs with a wild cam... you get fit. The guzzi electrics have been mildly improved and every now and then I hook it up to a battery tender to top off the truck battery it uses... but only because it get little use and the garge is cold plus those big batteries cost a friggin fortune.

Look guys it's horses for courses, I have a background in electrical engineering so I'm always looking at stuff thinking, wtf, why did they do that and improving.... There is a know fault in the guzzi wiring thats fixed with a couple of little straps, it means a low battery will fire the starter now when it used to go 'click'... I still trust the thing as far as I can throw it but the VM is a good indication of health.

End of the day you can think I'm a stupid dork, I don't care but I run my old bikes with the lights on and have had zero issues....

Now if I had a Lucas 6v gennie you might hear me complaining....

ps - MoF, I was running a 95W highbeam in my Mk2 for a while - wowsers but it was a bridge too far charge wise. I fitted a brand new lamp (same as a small fiat cheap as chips) and a 45/55 lamps, can easily ride at 120 plus at night and I'm half blind.... (the other half is deaf)

RDjase
18th August 2009, 23:29
I read a article some were(trying to find it) about a study on day time bike headlight use that said it made it more difficult to judge the distance of an approaching motorcycle and it made the bike look FURTHER AWAY than it actualy was. It carried on that in some states (US or AUS, cant remember till i find article) were compulsary headlight use was made legal, that there was more accidents(from people saying they thought the bike was futher away) and they changed the laws back.

Has anyone else read or heard of it before?

I ride with my lights on , My duke is a US model and always (mostly) did when i used my LC on the road


I have come across a few articles on the subject over the years - they all said this was the danger of using high beam in daytime. One mag (Cycle World, I think, but don't quote me), actually went so far as to get a heap of people to estimate how far away a bike was with headlight alternately on high and then low beams. The results were , well, let's say I never ride using high beam in the daytime...

Thanks for that , very handy piece of info, i wonder if LTSA or what ever there are now will pass this on (if they even know about it, they should do, no doubt it has cost tax payers a fortune to change this rule) or just blame every accident on a SPEEDING MOTORCYCLE

Voltaire
19th August 2009, 07:30
I once needed a new rotor for my BMW R100S once whilst doing an extended tour, BMW had them for $$$$$, Bosch could get them....but the Guzzi shop had reco ones for way less.
On futher investigation the BMW and Guzzi charging system is the same...a Bosch one.
Always handy to know what interchangable parts there are out there....
Hmmm idea for new post.

Beeza
19th August 2009, 15:39
A trained electrical engineer probably CAN run his Guzzi LM2 with headlights on, or his Trophy with radically modded electric with ditto, just as how a heart specialist can probably feed on Big Macs all day long and then do all the other clever secret cardiac stuff to avoid copping the fat heart attack us ordinary buggers would get.

We're not electrical boffins, so our old bikes still run in the way they were designed donkey's years ago.

And that means you switch the lights on only in the dark when the roads are emptier and you can still go fast enough to get home before the battery runs down too much for the bike to fire up the next morning.

Our pre-90 bikes simply weren't designed to run with the lights on in the daytime. And our batteries WILL go flat if we did.

Headlights are for use in the dark, not in the daytime.

That's how it was before 1990 for us rank-and-file riders without a BSc, B.Eng or an auto-electrics trade ticket. And many motorcyclists with an OFF switch still operate on the same notion today -- and all you need to do is to look around and see how rare this "lights-on running in the daytime" thing still is.

Post-90 bike riders don't have a valid excuse. Pre-90 bike riders do.

The proposed new law ought to take this reality into account.

Ixion
19th August 2009, 15:58
Well, there are bikes and bikes. And localities and localities.

Older bikes may sometimes be better off than later ones. I dunno anything about MGs so I won't speak of them. I do know a bit aboyut older Briddish bikes.

F'instance , a early 60s Norton Domi. Mag ignition, alternator, decent size 12V battery, no indicators or such. He's fine. Ignition doesn't need a battery, and the alternator only has to cope with the headlamp.

Earlier Briddish, usually magneto and 6V dynamo. Not really an issue. The ignition doesn't need a battery, the dynamo maybe won't cope so the light will get pretty feak and weeble, but arguably it's still a headlamp

Small Briddish with magdynos, eg BSA Bantam, they're fine, lights were always crap, but 24 hour a day crap.

But, an early Triumph with 6V dynamo and coil ignition , he's in trouble.

And a later Triumph, once they started fitting indicators and such, along with coil ignition, he may have a problem (though at least he's got a kickstart).

What WILL struggle are the early Jappas and Euros. When they were starting to load the machine up with electric fitments, hadn't decently upscaled the alternator size, and had taken away the kick start.

If you only have a leccy leg you're at risk

Then there's location.

Mr PiNZ states that where he lives to go anywhere means a decent bit of open road at the start and the same decent bit of open road at the end. And (no disrespect, but) down where he is there aren't likely to be traffic jams or huge urban areas like Auckland

So his bike gets a good charge up at the start, and a good charge up at the end. Not quite the same as struggling across Auckland , 50kph all the way for an hour, then getting stuck in stop start city traffic for an hour (traffic lights n such) then another 50kph grind home. Not a decent run in the whole time to put a bit of charge into the system

As the Brummagen gentleman says, bikes of the 70s and 80s weren't designed on the basis of running lights all the time. They may cope. Or they may not .

popelli
19th August 2009, 16:46
if lights on is so great why don't car drivers have to use day time lights

come to think of it if helmets are so great why don't car drivers have to wear them

just another totally unnecessary law

Paul in NZ
19th August 2009, 19:50
Oh ffs.... This is nuts... ANY simpleton that can manage to string enough brain cells together to run an old bike for any length of time can sort the electrics. However, most people would rather spend the $$ on stupid compression ratios and $1000 paint jobs that sitting down for 5 min's and thinking about it...

Pre 1990 eh? OK - Dredge up the FZR thread. hels bike always had trouble with electrics and starting - got the engine sorted and yes - when it was running the voltage across the battery (not a great method but good enough) was down lower than i liked. The manual has a full diagnosis check sheet and everything measured OK on the $20 multimeter so...

Sat an looked at it and realised the rect / reg was mounted on a plate that bolted to the frame and that was how it was earthed. Decades of dirt had broken down the connection, two scrap wire jumper leads with $1.00 worth of connectors to join the rect/reg to the eth side of the battery directly and another one to the engine cases and full charge is restored - bike has NEVER had a charging problem since (stayed in touch with new owner) and runs lights on all the time...

Same deal on an FZR400SP - cept the rect reg is worse on those, it bolts to a alloy plare pop riveted to a subframe...

End of the day - if you REALLY want to ride your bike with the lights on there is a soltion, problem is, you don't want to hear it.

Paul N

ps - I don't have an electrical degree, I specialise in telecommunications and my paid job is as a Marketing manager

dieseldave
19th August 2009, 21:05
Back in the early 70's some bikers were voluntarily putting lights on during the day to be more noticeable. If I remember correctly the group (whoever they were) wanted lights on to be mandatory in recognition of a problem. No doubt they had some resistance to that but did advise the bikers to do it anyway. Some/most did just that. So now its law - what's the problem?

Motu
19th August 2009, 22:13
So now its law - what's the problem?

The fact that it is a law.

BMWST?
19th August 2009, 22:55
back in the day....i ran headlights on with all my bikes from cb500 four through to BMWK100RS evn my Ducati 900S2 5 days a week it was through the middle of wellington....Lyall Bay to Thorndon...zero issues

Ixion
19th August 2009, 23:10
Sorry PiNZ, but the best earthing and wiring in the world can't produce ampheres that just aren't there.

If you consume more watts than the dynamo or alternator is putting out your battery will discharge. End of story

For instance, the Lucas E3N dynamo produces (when brand new, in perfect condition) 30 watts at 2300 rpm (maximum output of 48 watts at peak revs).

Now, even if you've still got the old 24/36W headlamp bulb fitted, that, on dip beam (24W) plus a 6W tail lamp is 30watts. The maximum output of the dyno if the revs are under 2300. Add a stop lamp if fitted, instrument lamp and your battery IS discharging. And that's assuming magneto ignition. If you have an early coil ignition (say an early 5T) then things are much worse.

And in Auckland city traffic, there wil be LONG periods when revs won't get above 2000-3000 .

And it gets worse. Cut in speed (below which the dynamo produces NO output) is 1200 - 1500 rpm. Well above idle. So the whole time you're idling the battery is getting NO charge.

It's going to go flat. No two ways about it.

And no amount of fettling, earthing, rewiring will stop it, because the amps just aren't there.

Sure, most machines old enough to mount a dynamo probably aren't used much. And a charged up battery (on the battery charger) before setting out will *probably* last long enough to get home. Mostly. But what about rallies f'instance. Days (maybe weeks) away from home. And most rally camp sites don't have a convenient power point to plug your battery charger in (not to mention having to lug it along).

Yes. We can work round it. But we shouldn't have to.

Most classic riders DO ride with lights on , most of the time. But they flick them off to give the system a break when , for instance, they are sitting at traffic lights.

Fortunately , thanks to the pre 80 exemption, they'll be able to continue to do so.

I don't have figures for alternator output on early 80s machines so I can't be dogmatic. But I suspect that some (not all) machines of that era, with 60s era charging system , but indicators, stop lights and electric starters added on, will be in a similar situation.

Motu
20th August 2009, 00:08
Sure we can upgrade our electrical system just by step by step attention to connections and earths,to make it how the manufacturer intended,but didn't implement.Done it plenty of times myself,sometimes with surprising success,sometimes with other surprising results.At the moment the BMW has me standing back with suspicion.


The late '80's airhead has a 280w alt,sounds good to my 60w brain,but after a battery failure I checked my charging system,and found it is really marginal at low engine speeds...it will maintain status quot,but doesn't go into the positive side of charging until cruising mode.

Motorcycle alts run at engine speed,unlike car systems that are geared up - a car is putting in 14.5 volts at idle,an older bike will never do that.I've just gone from a 75amp alt to a 60amp alt on my Pajero,and as I don't use the air con,drive with my lights on and fogs at night it should be ok....but my short trips twice a week will drag it down too,the twin batteries take some filling up.You don't really need the extra if everything goes to plan - but when did that ever happen?

Dodgyiti
21st August 2009, 08:12
The late '80's airhead has a 280w alt,sounds good to my 60w brain,but after a battery failure I checked my charging system,and found it is really marginal at low engine speeds...it will maintain status quot,but doesn't go into the positive side of charging until cruising mode.


Yeah, that was my only issue too. Stop start traffic, sitting at set of lights after set of lights does not a battery charge. And that is what it is like commuting in Auckland.
Heaven knows how you cope with the confirmed 2 sets of lights down your way Motu... :killingme

Sure I'm an idiot for even thinking of commuting on a 30+ year old bike, but it makes me happy and I don't care about the sensible options, otherwise I would not ride old Guzzis eh?

Paul is right, no issue with a plug in charger once in a while and I have invested in a C-Tek trickle charger and plug in fitment for my bike/s.
I did try a solid state rectifyer/regulator for a while but it let me down after 20,000kms last year in my T-3 so went back to old trusty units. Mainly because what am I to do with the 4 spare ones sitting in the drawer if I don't use them:laugh:

Voltaire
23rd August 2009, 16:33
20 watt halogen in the parking bulb size, $ 14.00 from Repcos.....special order.
I'll post up a before and after pic.
20 watts divided by 12 volts = 1.6 amps.
Should satisfy "The Masters" and the electricks.:banana:

Bonez
23rd August 2009, 19:31
It's only in the nineties that some countries began making new laws requiring permanent lights-on operation and motorbike manufacturers then began uprating their charging systems to cope with this new reality.Some states in the USA and also Canada introduced a lights on policy early in the 80s. Went so far as having the switch blocks light "on/off" switch removed and the slot blanked for these markets. Of course one of the first mods was to fit an aftermarket light switch.

There are those idiots up norf who insist on riding around with there headlights on full beam during the day. No hope for them I'm afraid.

Voltaire
24th August 2009, 19:11
Bought a 20 watt halogen park light and here are the pics showing the difference.
Way brighter!!!!

Ixion
24th August 2009, 19:37
Impressive. And of course 20 W is not far from the once common 24W low beam headlamp bulb

Do you have a part number or reference for the bulb (you said that repco had to order it specially?)

Voltaire
24th August 2009, 19:54
Impressive. And of course 20 W is not far from the once common 24W low beam headlamp bulb

Do you have a part number or reference for the bulb (you said that repco had to order it specially?)

Main beam is obviously brighter but 20 watts is a good compromise of power Vs light intensity, but as Dodyiti pointed out its the low round town engine speeds that are the problem with engine speed alternators.

" but officer....the healight is on......( just not 50 watts of it).":eek5:

Repco P/N 17835
Narva :12 volt 20w BA9s

$ 14.00

Ixion
24th August 2009, 19:58
Excellent. Thank you. I shall call upon Mssrs repco the morrow.

And 20W constant is a LOT more than some thing like a Beeza Bantam direct lighting set puts out at low revs.

Big Zappa
24th August 2009, 20:35
Read in the Dom today that the headlight law does not apply to bikes registered before 1980. Some motorring club association was patting themselves on the back in the letters page for lobbying Joyce to get that in.

Mind you I'll believe it when I see the legislation.. though if they are wrong the Dom will probably get a shitstorm of letters.

classic zed
24th August 2009, 20:54
According to specs my Z1300 puts out 145 watts @ 3,000rpm, I never switch my headlight off and in fact run an HID unit so I can be seen, as well as the headlamp obviously there are 4x5w dash bulbs and a 5w tail light.

Most of my riding would be between 3,000 and 4,000 RPM and despite the battery being close in size to a small car battery Iv never had a problem with it going flat.

Voltaire
24th August 2009, 21:24
According to specs my Z1300 puts out 145 watts @ 3,000rpm, I never switch my headlight off and in fact run an HID unit so I can be seen, as well as the headlamp obviously there are 4x5w dash bulbs and a 5w tail light.

Most of my riding would be between 3,000 and 4,000 RPM and despite the battery being close in size to a small car battery Iv never had a problem with it going flat.

I was looking into HID lights ....and from the what I read elsewhere on this forum they are illegal to fit to a standard headlight...but as you say you added a seperate unit.
Is yours just run on one setting?

classic zed
25th August 2009, 11:21
I was looking into HID lights ....and from the what I read elsewhere on this forum they are illegal to fit to a standard headlight...but as you say you added a seperate unit.
Is yours just run on one setting?

actually I added it to the existing headlamp, I had to tweak the bulb mounting around a bit to get the beam pattern right but seing as I have a Wof station at my garage I have the correct beam setter to sort the pattern so it doesnt dazzle. I used an H4 replacement HID, it has a shield that slides back and forward to change the unit from dip to main and so works as a normal bulb. :clap:

Motu
26th August 2009, 19:34
So I got a 20w halogen park bulb.People wonder why I save all sorts of shit...well it comes in handy in times like this.I obviously took it out of something (a Mercedes I think) and now it's in my bike.

I've spent the last 3 nights fixing my tail light...grrrrr,mutter - a bad connection under the tank.Pull the whole bloody bike apart just because my tail light doesn't go....even my bike doesn't get a WoF with no tail light.

Appears my park light was out too....so got the 20w replacement.It sure is bright (just checked it in the dark shed),and I think it will be a good running light as it spreads a scatter beam...more noticeable than the focused dip beam.My only concern is that when I go to headlamps,it'll be pulling the extra 20w of the park light....

Voltaire
26th August 2009, 20:32
My only concern is that when I go to headlamps,it'll be pulling the extra 20w of the park light....

.....bugger, I hadn't thought of that...more frigg'n relays.....:crybaby: