Being Shafted

[Maha]

Never a good thing, even for a Honda owner.

Work has not been abundant for a while now, We contract to the one and only shop here in town, and sometimes, to a shop in Wellsford. Last year around May, our employee of about 6 years left for Christchurch with his girlfriend, she had a great job offer in the South Island. They got engaged, purchased a house, then a few months ago, all feel apart. I was told last Friday by the Flooring shop owner that they have employed a Vinyl layer who is starting in September. My reaction? For Fucks sake, really? you dont have enough to keep me going! Yeah and the real kicker is, its Tim, our ex employee. They assured me that they will be using him and me and nobody else, but the reality is, Tim will get the work first then me. So he will doing all the floor prep and vinyl installs plus smaller carpet jobs. So we are in a bit of a spot really, theres a couple of things that I can chase up but its not a good feeling. I know its business but, ya kinda feel a tad slapped.
The shop in Wellsford said they will feed me more work, they are as shocked as I am about what our main work supplier has done.

[MSTRS]

That sucks, mate. Leaves a nasty taste. Do you know someone who 'knows someone' ??

[Mully]

Gutted. You wanna give that Tim a slap.

[Maha]

That sucks, mate. Leaves a nasty taste. Do you know someone who 'knows someone' ??

I have 'people' yes.....:2guns:

Seriously though, now we know where we stand, its time to make ourselves more avaliable to others rather than just hanging on in the hope that its all going get better. We have a call to make (outside of the area) about an oppotunity.

[Maha]

Gutted. You wanna give that Tim a slap.

I think Mom does but hes 6'5''......:whistle:

[Rodney007]

sorry to hear man,

[MSTRS]

I have 'people' yes.....:2guns:

Seriously though, now we know where we stand, its time to make ourselves more avaliable to others rather than just hanging on in the hope that its all going get better. We have a call to make (outside of the area) about an oppotunity.Sometimes a 'push' can be a good thing. Fingers crossed for you


I think Mom does but hes 6'5''......:whistle:

The perfect height, then...<_<

[cs363]

I have 'people' yes.....:2guns:

Seriously though, now we know where we stand, its time to make ourselves more avaliable to others rather than just hanging on in the hope that its all going get better. We have a call to make (outside of the area) about an oppotunity.

Yep, that's the way - onwards and upwards.
It's never a good idea (especially with 20/20 hindsight...) to have all your eggs in one basket as your experience shows.
Hope you can get some work elsewhere Maha, best of luck :)

[Quasievil]

Start a mobile sales service in addition to your install business and contract to no one but yourself, take care of the sales process and the install, do the lot and in doing so undercut them because being mobile and self employed you will have less costs running your business.

Whats to loose????

Possibly you will need different suppliers, but does that matter? there must be loads of flooring suppliers?

Go to the bank, see if they will back you and go for it mate !!

Also another idea, get into industrial roof top laying...you know the black stuff that provides the waterproofness to flat top buildings and decks?

[James Deuce]

That's "business". Anyone who doesn't roll around on the floor laughing when they hear the phrase "business ethics" is a very, very successful "businessman" with at least 2 bankrupt episodes to boast about.

[Maha]

sorry to hear man,

When Tim and I worked together for a number of years, it was great, I was not overly happy when he left but, thats life, get on with it. As it has turned out, we would have had to let him go anyway because of the downturn in work. There maybe times when he and I can work together in the future, some install jobs need more than one man, who knows? not giving that senario to much credence right now, need to look after our own arses first.

[cs363]

Start a mobile sales service in addition to your install business and contract to no one but yourself, take care of the sales process and the install, do the lot and in doing so undercut them because being mobile and self employed you will have less costs running your business.

Whats to loose????

Possibly you will need different suppliers, but does that matter? there must be loads of flooring suppliers?

Go to the bank, see if they will back you and go for it mate !!

Also another idea, get into industrial roof top laying...you know the black stuff that provides the waterproofness to flat top buildings and decks?

Good thinking right there, new company motto could be 'profit from adversity'........probably sounds fancier in latin but I can't remember properly, something like 'ususfructus ex adversum' :D

[R6_kid]

Go take a piss on all their carpet samples, or better still - get a cat to do it.

[Boob Johnson]

When Tim and I worked together for a number of years, it was great, I was not overly happy when he left but, thats life, get on with it. As it has turned out, we would have had to let him go anyway because of the downturn in work. There maybe times when he and I can work together in the future, some install jobs need more than one man, who knows? not giving that senario to much credence right now, need to look after our own arses first.
Keep ya friends closer & your enemies even closer :shifty:

[Mom]

That sucks, mate. Leaves a nasty taste. Do you know someone who 'knows someone' ??

Well the flooring industry is a small one really.

For me the thing that really takes the biscuit is the fact that I paid to put this person through his trade, I paid for him to get his full licence, I paid him full wages while he attended block courses, I sometimes even paid his board while he was away. It was a happy working relationship. He has a personal crisis and the first thing he does is come back here and offer himself to the shop, he never approached us at all. Mark was the first person that rang him when his engagement went splat, he was a mess and Mark supported him. Dont think that sort of thing is liked by anyone.

The shop has been very quiet about all this, every time we have talked to them it has been all positive, this has been in the pipeline for a while now, the only reason they said anything was they have made a couple of their other staff redundant as part of the restructuring.

I went and had a head to head this morning as I knew we were being fed a line of bullshit, and was reassured that it sould all come right in 3 or 4 months, or Feb next year! I had to tell them our business did not have 3 or 4 months let alone 7 with no work, we would be pushing it to last 2 or 3 weeks at this stage.

[Hitcher]

We've got an upstairs bathroom and toilet that need new vinyl...

[boomer]

thats not good to hear but maybe this is the catalyst.

Take him out for a beer and give him the beats in the car park afterwards !

[Mom]

thats not good to hear but maybe this is the catalyst.

Take him out for a beer and give him the beats in the car park afterwards !

I have asked Mark to stop me from ringing this person, I have a few things I want to share with him really. They can keeep till I can face him personally and look him in the navel (perhaps I will find a box to stand on so I can do it eye to eye). I actually enjoyed facing the shop down this morning, I seem to have the ability to be really cold, calm and fairly deadly when I am in the kind of mood I am in at the moment. No raised voices, but I was not interested in platitudes either, as I explained the time for bullshit has passed, all i canre about is the future of my business, not hearing about how stressful her life was. I had the owner in tears and shaking :D

He will keep mate, small town, small industry. We are not the type to roll over with out a friggen big fight

[nudemetalz]

That's a bugger. Putting all your trust in one person and then getting let down is a bugger.
I had that with a person recently who wanted to do a partnership with designer guitarstands. He wanted me to CAD them and I make the alloy parts necessary to go with his timber construction.
As he was a workmates friend I didn't go checking around too much.
All of a sudden he stopped contacting me after I gave him some ideas.
Funnily enough "my ideas" appeared on his new stands... :angry2:
Peeved to say the least.

[Mom]

That's a bugger. Putting all your trust in one person and then getting let down is a bugger.

Well see we have been left in this place as the result of 2 shops that we worked for closing down in the last year, that has put the squeeze on the contractors anyway. Oh well, I am off to make a call that is going to start off with...boy do I have a deal for you :yes:

[Dooly]

Shithouse luck Maha/Mom.

Employees:2guns:

Had a cunt here, for 25 yrs, grew up with the fucker, families were all mates etc, was a good worker, never any issues, stood by him when he had shit going down.
Quits a couple of years back, fair enough, no probs.
Fucker had been moonlighting for someone else at weekends, took a job with him.
Then when we shut over for hols over Xmas, right when he left, he phoned all our good clients saying he had left cos we were shutting down and they should come to his new garage.
Fortunately they all came and saw us and asked what was going on...........

[yungatart]

Bugger guys!
Onward and upward....good luck!

[p.dath]

If there is only one main person in town you can work before, then your pretty much an employee. Although it probably goes against your grain, have you considered just asking them to employee rather than contract you? Especially if things are a bit tight.

[boomer]

.. only one main person in town you can work before, then your pretty much an employee

Why do u keep quoting this crap.. SHUT THE FOOK UP... its bollox !

[allycatz]

Go wider afield...the mileage is tax deductable. At the end of the day reputation and job quality will count for plenty and good luck out there

[klingon]

Sometimes a 'push' can be a good thing. Fingers crossed for you...


Yep. I don't mean to sound all "Pollyanna" but I have found there are times in my life when something like this has been the thing that has pushed me just that little bit harder and I have ended up benefitting as a result.

If you can turn all that pent-up negative energy into something positive (and I think you are exactly the kind of people who do that anyway) then you will come out better off in the long run.

Meanwhile, chins up! And you know we will all be out there looking for opportunities to send your way!

[86GSXR]

Sorry to hear of this guys. I hope that call opens up a few more options. People can be absolute shits to each other eh!

[boman]

That really is shit house when something like this happens. I really do hope it all works out for both you guys in the end. I hate people like him, especially after all the help and assistance you have given him. Good luck to you both.

[Maha]

We have made contact with a another shop about an hour form here (put the jug on MDU) I have yet to hear to full story (Annes on the phone) but form what little I do know, its sounds pretty good. Doing Measures and Quotes, how ever many days I want. So it would be good to get into that and do what ever work there is to do from the Wellsford shop and tell the local shop to, well, bye bye really.

[cs363]

Well the flooring industry is a small one really.

For me the thing that really takes the biscuit is the fact that I paid to put this person through his trade, I paid for him to get his full licence, I paid him full wages while he attended block courses, I sometimes even paid his board while he was away. It was a happy working relationship. He has a personal crisis and the first thing he does is come back here and offer himself to the shop, he never approached us at all. Mark was the first person that rang him when his engagement went splat, he was a mess and Mark supported him. Dont think that sort of thing is liked by anyone.

The shop has been very quiet about all this, every time we have talked to them it has been all positive, this has been in the pipeline for a while now, the only reason they said anything was they have made a couple of their other staff redundant as part of the restructuring.

I went and had a head to head this morning as I knew we were being fed a line of bullshit, and was reassured that it sould all come right in 3 or 4 months, or Feb next year! I had to tell them our business did not have 3 or 4 months let alone 7 with no work, we would be pushing it to last 2 or 3 weeks at this stage.

I'm guessing you didn't have a restraint of trade clause in your employees contract then? Something to think about if you ever go down the track of employing someone again, especially if you are in a 'small world' industry.

At least with yours and Maha's subsequent posts it looks like things are looking up, hopefully this is a case of one door closing but another one opening. As others have said, often it's for the better :)
Again, good luck guys.

[BiK3RChiK]

Just be careful not to shut doors so they never can be opened again...

It's tough times that make a person, so take it on the chin and see what you can do to improve what you do have.. Hope it all works out.

[SixPackBack]

Never a good thing, even for a Honda owner.

Work has not been abundant for a while now, We contract to the one and only shop here in town, and sometimes, to a shop in Wellsford. Last year around May, our employee of about 6 years left for Christchurch with his girlfriend, she had a great job offer in the South Island. They got engaged, purchased a house, then a few months ago, all feel apart. I was told last Friday by the Flooring shop owner that they have employed a Vinyl layer who is starting in September. My reaction? For Fucks sake, really? you dont have enough to keep me going! Yeah and the real kicker is, its Tim, our ex employee. They assured me that they will be using him and me and nobody else, but the reality is, Tim will get the work first then me. So he will doing all the floor prep and vinyl installs plus smaller carpet jobs. So we are in a bit of a spot really, theres a couple of things that I can chase up but its not a good feeling. I know its business but, ya kinda feel a tad slapped.
The shop in Wellsford said they will feed me more work, they are as shocked as I am about what our main work supplier has done.

Questioning 'fair play' is exactly why individuals get upset over dodgy tickets and/or practices. Remember the feeling Mark next time someone comes on KB an whines about ticketing, 'cos what you are experiencing is exactly the same emotion-hopelessness!

[chanceyy]

Gutting guys, times are tough but good to see your fighting & making those calls ..

I agree out of adversity can come good things ..

sending you positive thoughts & :hug:

[ynot slow]

Mark that sucks big time,I knew a couple of guys who went into laying 50/50,one then set up a nightclub and other bought him out,with proviso he wouldn't set up within 5 yrs in competition as contractor.Worked ok.

Have you thought about a franchise Carpet One as example.Hell not many guys want to lay vinyl lol,most take carpet over vinyl.Wait till he needs help especially school holidays laying 50mts polyfloor.

Hopefully although your correct to be filthy with him,can you say to him you're happy to contract with him on big jobs,especially if you can say at $xyz per meter.A couple of major stuff ups and he's gone,pretty hard to stay calm and bite your tongue though.

Just told today I was second choice in flooring store for sales which really pissed me off,hopefully I can find who or where this person worked and take that job lol.

[Laava]

Yep. I don't mean to sound all "Pollyanna" but I have found there are times in my life when something like this has been the thing that has pushed me just that little bit harder and I have ended up benefitting as a result.

If you can turn all that pent-up negative energy into something positive (and I think you are exactly the kind of people who do that anyway) then you will come out better off in the long run.

Meanwhile, chins up! And you know we will all be out there looking for opportunities to send your way!
Agree! Sorry to hear about your situation guys and hope you sort it soonish but I also have been in similar situations and looked back on them to see it can be for the best. Hope you have this experience too! Anyway I am sure you have already thought of this, innit?

[DIN PELENDA]

I think Mom does but hes 6'5''......:whistle:

I get that done for you man, I make Tim Tam's out of him:bash: just PM me .

[BMWST?]

We have made contact with a another shop about an hour form here (put the jug on MDU) I have yet to hear to full story (Annes on the phone) but form what little I do know, its sounds pretty good. Doing Measures and Quotes, how ever many days I want. So it would be good to get into that and do what ever work there is to do from the Wellsford shop and tell the local shop to, well, bye bye really.

dont burn your bridges yet....although all may seem gloomy it hasnt actually happened yet.The shop prolly needs an employee,and a contractor....But make the most of the new opportunity.Best of luck!

[p.dath]

Why do u keep quoting this crap.. SHUT THE FOOK UP... its bollox !

Having run several companies I have quite a bit of commercial experience, and the IRD 80% income test from one source for contractors is widely known.

[p.dath]

I'm guessing you didn't have a restraint of trade clause in your employees contract then? Something to think about if you ever go down the track of employing someone again, especially if you are in a 'small world' industry....

It was 6 months, which is a pretty reasonable period of time.

Contracts that include a restraint of trade for a persons primary trade and source of income have frequently been overturned by employment court. So you can't really use them anymore.

[cs363]

It was 6 months, which is a pretty reasonable period of time.

Contracts that include a restraint of trade for a persons primary trade and source of income have frequently been overturned by employment court. So you can't really use them anymore.

I hear what you're saying re: being overturned and agree in part, however the clause is still useful especially if limited to the area where the employer is located and it's surrounds.
If nothing else it gives the employee pause for thought before doing something similar to this and is another hurdle that has to be overcome prior to setting up in opposition to their former employer. In this instance it might have encouraged Maha's former employee to contact him regarding work and/or discussion of the situation.

Why make it easy for someone to shaft you, that's more the point?

[p.dath]

Having run several companies I have quite a bit of commercial experience, and the IRD 80% income test from one source for contractors is widely known.

Based on the amount of red rep I have gotten on this one several of you don't believe me on the 80% rule. Here is a reference for you. If you use Google you will find many more references. This is a well established rule.

http://www.crackerjacks.co.nz/resources/employeeorcontractor/

"However if a majority of the contractor services provided is to one business then the income attribution rules may apply. In general terms the income attribution rules state that if 80% or more of your income is derived from one source, then the income is required to be taxed in the individual’s name. This may negate some of the benefits of conducting the contractor business in a company."

[portokiwi]

Keep your chin up mate,
Gabby and I are thinking of you guys.
As many of the others have said...Dont burn any bridges Your Rep is good so that should be good. lol saying that in this dog eat dog world its more who you know as I have found out down here. :2guns:

[boomer]

Based on the amount of red rep I have gotten on this one several of you don't believe me on the 80% rule. Here is a reference for you. If you use Google you will find many more references. This is a well established rule.

http://www.crackerjacks.co.nz/resources/employeeorcontractor/

"However if a majority of the contractor services provided is to one business then the income attribution rules may apply. In general terms the income attribution rules state that if 80% or more of your income is derived from one source, then the income is required to be taxed in the individual’s name. This may negate some of the benefits of conducting the contractor business in a company."

That's because, many of us are self employed. Having discussed the finer legalities with our accountants.


and i hadn't red repped you but thanks for reminding me...! :laugh:

[Okey Dokey]

Sorry to hear of how your former employee treated you. I can see why treason was a hanging offense! Not nice at all.

I think you are both coping with the whole situation really well. It sounds like you are looking forward, not backwards, which is great. People like yourselves make your own luck and take charge of your own lives, so I know you will come through in the end.

[Pixie]

I have asked Mark to stop me from ringing this person, I have a few things I want to share with him really. They can keeep till I can face him personally and look him in the navel (perhaps I will find a box to stand on so I can do it eye to eye). I actually enjoyed facing the shop down this morning, I seem to have the ability to be really cold, calm and fairly deadly when I am in the kind of mood I am in at the moment. No raised voices, but I was not interested in platitudes either, as I explained the time for bullshit has passed, all i canre about is the future of my business, not hearing about how stressful her life was. I had the owner in tears and shaking :D

He will keep mate, small town, small industry. We are not the type to roll over with out a friggen big fight

Aaah,the cosy warmth of burning bridges

[Pixie]

Having run several companies I have quite a bit of commercial experience, and the IRD 80% income test from one source for contractors is widely known.

Considering that Transfeild want former Chorus employees to become self employed contractors,who will get 100% of their work from Transfeild there seems to be a loophole in the rules.

[CookMySock]

Start a mobile sales service in addition to your install businessMaha, Quasi is right. Surely you can buy product at trade somewhere. Mom might enjoy getting out and about and doing the sales thing and drumming up some work.. or not.. :dodge:

Steve

[Lissa]

Its not nice what your former employee did, but then again if it wasnt him it could very well have been someone else? Its getting to be dog eat dog (and tongans eat dog) and people are just looking out for themselves at the moment. Although there are somethings that you just dont do, and thats go behind 'friends backs' but then again are there any friends in business at the moment? Sending you lots of good luck maha and mom, and rotten smelly tomato karma to Tim!

[Waxxa]

geez maha, that sucks big time!

but you guys must prioritise and keep your focus on how to keep the business coming in. Dont worry about Tim cause at the end of the day he is doing what he thinks is good for him.

keep the focus on yourselves guys...I'm sure things will work out for you, you both have good karma and what goes around comes around...

[p.dath]

Considering that Transfeild want former Chorus employees to become self employed contractors,who will get 100% of their work from Transfeild there seems to be a loophole in the rules.

The contract they are offering is non-exclusive, but they are running a considerable risk. If the contractor elects to pay no tax, and the IRD find out, and 80% of their income came from that single source, then the IRD would persue them for not paying PAYE for that employee, plus penalties.

I recall a high profile case where one of Peter Jackson's films used a contractor. The contractor paid no tax. The IRD found this out, determined they had earned more than 80% of their income from a single source, took PJ's company to court, and may them pay PAYE and fines.

Take a further read of this:
http://www.crackerjacks.co.nz/resources/contractor-or-employee/

However, people often do not realise that it is the circumstances of a situation that will determine if a person can in fact operate as an independent contractor. If it goes wrong, there may be severe repercussions. For example, if a person believes he/she is an independent contractor, but based on the facts, the IRD deems the relationship to be that of employment, the IRD can:

• demand unpaid PAYE from the employer based on grossed up payments
• disallow expenses claimed by the employee, and
• charge both parties penalties and interest.

[Maha]

Keep your chin up mate,
Gabby and I are thinking of you guys.
As many of the others have said...Dont burn any bridges Your Rep is good so that should be good. lol saying that in this dog eat dog world its more who you know as I have found out down here. :2guns:

Cheers Bruce, another shop 20 mins north has started to fill my days, they think what has happened is an arsehole thing to do. They are big on loyalty and a great bunch to work for. I have done work for them over the years from time to time.


Maha, Quasi is right. Surely you can buy product at trade somewhere. Mom might enjoy getting out and about and doing the sales thing and drumming up some work.. or not.. :dodge:

Steve

Yes Steve, what Quasi said is a good idea but, heres how that works, the suppliers will say no, why? because we are not retailers and those that are will spit shit if any Flooring Wholesalers supply us with floor coverings.


geez maha, that sucks big time!

but you guys must prioritise and keep your focus on how to keep the business coming in. Dont worry about Tim cause at the end of the day he is doing what he thinks is good for him.

keep the focus on yourselves guys...I'm sure things will work out for you, you both have good karma and what goes around comes around...

Yes Tony, already I can see a change in the work load, its been pretty bad for some time, they even asked one of thier other installers if he could teach Tim to lay commercial Vinyl, Dave said ''Fuck off I work alone and aint teaching no bastard only to have my work load dry up'' which would eventually happen.

[ynot slow]

Yes Steve, what Quasi said is a good idea but, heres how that works, the suppliers will say no, why? because we are not retailers and those that are will spit shit if any Flooring Wholesalers supply us with floor coverings.


Bit of a pain in arse to be an owner/layer retailer.But isn't there any wholesalers who have no alliance with retailers,i.e Carpet Court,Flooring Xtra in the area.

Thinking back a few years there was a company advertising on tv,media about supplying carpet at cheap rates,you phoned them for samples which were sent to customer,then the hard part was getting carpet installed,most layers who contracted to stores were told,you sell it we dump you.Can't think of the company.

[Maha]

Bit of a pain in arse to be an owner/layer retailer.But isn't there any wholesalers who have no alliance with retailers,i.e Carpet Court,Flooring Xtra in the area.

Thinking back a few years there was a company advertising on tv,media about supplying carpet at cheap rates,you phoned them for samples which were sent to customer,then the hard part was getting carpet installed,most layers who contracted to stores were told,you sell it we dump you.Can't think of the company.

You may be thinking of Ceard Carpets Tony? not sure on the spelling?

Theres one operating up this way at the moment, Flooring Direct I think?

The company that I contract to at the moment is Flooring xtra.

[ynot slow]

You may be thinking of Ceard Carpets Tony? not sure on the spelling?

Theres one operating up this way at the moment, Flooring Direct I think?

The company that I contract to at the moment is Flooring xtra.

Yep Caird carpets was them.Had a layer who did a bit with them,he also would buy carpet off us as well.Actually both places I've worked with would sell this layer carpet or vinyl in smallish amounts,quite often he'd have little old ladies wanting a room done,he'd pop into see if we had a remnant.

Bet you're glad you had shares in Feltex now,guys I worked with had a few when they were cheap(yeah right)the company bought them,think they had 15-25000 or so they bought 3 years or so ago before they listed I think.

[Maha]

Yep Caird carpets was them.Had a layer who did a bit with them,he also would buy carpet off us as well.Actually both places I've worked with would sell this layer carpet or vinyl in smallish amounts,quite often he'd have little old ladies wanting a room done,he'd pop into see if we had a remnant.

Back in the day, some reatailers wouldn't use layers who supported Caird.

[GIXser]

gutted for ya.. reminds me of years ago, when i employed this young fella. he worked for me for over two years, spend lots on his ongoing training and was real good to him... the day prior to his resignation i gave him a thousand dollar cellphone brand new, as a bit of a bonus.. he accepted.. only to start at a competitor the following day..... i was gutted.. but learned a valuable lesson at the same time..
(no one is with ya forever, and they usually end up competitors

[Maha]

Aaah,the cosy warmth of burning bridges

No burning of bridges at all, its just become a one lane bridge, but I can feel the other lane opening up pretty soon, if the shop in question does in future offer up work, I will certainly look at it. At present, our focus is elsewhere and the comfort level (although aint sparkling) is starting to take effect, albeit gradually. I have been in the trade for 28 years and have been where we are now once before, I managed to work my out of it then and will do so this time round.

[Timber020]

I have decided to put in a restraint of trade clause with new employees. If they leave they are welcome to set up there own businesses, but not on my turf and not taking my clients with them.

[ynot slow]

Back in the day, some reatailers wouldn't use layers who supported Caird.

Yep was pretty much the option available to the shop owner and fair enough with their overheads.
A company I worked with had 1 prep,4 layers(2 were apprentices)and boss and manager could lay,that was one branch.They had trained numerous guys who went contracting,but hardly used them.Silly thing was the 2 experienced ones could earn shitloads in last 6 years or so subbing to the company.Instead the 4 would lay 120-150mts a week,company charging out at $xymtr,but paying $xy hour to 2tradeys and $xy for apprentices.

[ynot slow]

I have decided to put in a restraint of trade clause with new employees. If they leave they are welcome to set up there own businesses, but not on my turf and not taking my clients with them.

Looked at my last employment contract which said similar,but figure stuff them I came with 20 plus years experience,and if I want to use it for another employer I will.Not setting up myself in competition but working for someone else,as I will be no different to a mechanic taking skills with me,not clients.

[xgnr]

Take him out for a beer and give him the beats in the car park afterwards !

Yeah right like that's going to solve anything. Buy the guy a beer and king hit him

Nice

[boomer]

Yeah right like that's going to solve anything. Buy the guy a beer and king hit him

Nice

fancy a beer tonight?

[p.dath]

I have decided to put in a restraint of trade clause with new employees. If they leave they are welcome to set up there own businesses, but not on my turf and not taking my clients with them.

You should take a read of this:

http://www.howtolaw.co.nz/html/ml126.asp

In general the greater the restraint – whether in terms of geographical area, time or the type of business – the more likely the court will be to hold that the restraint clause is invalid.

[Ixion]

Based on the amount of red rep I have gotten on this one several of you don't believe me on the 80% rule. Here is a reference for you. If you use Google you will find many more references. This is a well established rule.

http://www.crackerjacks.co.nz/resources/employeeorcontractor/

.

The gentleman is correct. The "80% rule" is one indicator that IRD (and unions!) will use to determine if there is a genuine contractual relationship or a disguised employee relationship. However, it is not an absolute, just an indicator. If more than 80% of income comes from a single source then IRD will ask "what gives". But there could be a number of situations where the relationship could be contractual but one customer predominant. If the relationship is genuinely contractual (there are numerous other tests than can be applied) then IRD will be OK, despite the 80% thing

(FTW IANAL but the Transfield situation does not seem to be genuinely contractual to me. I would be surprised if IRD do not look hard at it)

[cs363]

You should take a read of this:

http://www.howtolaw.co.nz/html/ml126.asp

In general the greater the restraint – whether in terms of geographical area, time or the type of business – the more likely the court will be to hold that the restraint clause is invalid.

True, it's all about keeping it realistic as per my earlier post. If kept to the immediate area & surrounds it is usually easier to uphold, rather than trying to make the restraint cover the entire country for instance.
Judging by the posters comment below, I suspect that was what he was meaning.

If they leave they are welcome to set up there own businesses, but not on my turf and not taking my clients with them.
Like any legal document though, it's only as good as the person putting it together which is why it does not pay to take a DIY approach to this sort of thing. Well worth paying the $$ to a good professional.

[Max Preload]

Go wider afield...the mileage is tax deductable. At the end of the day reputation and job quality will count for plenty and good luck out there

Well, you still pay 2/3rds of the cost of mileage out of your own pocket, and travel time isn't deductable, although chargeable but doing that may price you out of the jobs.


I'm guessing you didn't have a restraint of trade clause in your employees contract then? Something to think about if you ever go down the track of employing someone again, especially if you are in a 'small world' industry.


I have decided to put in a restraint of trade clause with new employees. If they leave they are welcome to set up their own businesses, but not on my turf and not taking my clients with them.

Restraint of trade clauses for employees are largely unenforcable, and rightly so.


Mark that sucks big time,I knew a couple of guys who went into laying 50/50,one then set up a nightclub and other bought him out,with proviso he wouldn't set up within 5 yrs in competition as contractor.Worked ok.

Sale of a shareholding - completely different scenario.


Having run several companies I have quite a bit of commercial experience, and the IRD 80% income test from one source for contractors is widely known.

Having worked as an independant contractor for at least the last decade and frequently having all my income derived from one client in a year or two, as have my friends in the same line, I know that's not the only criteria. Otherwise courier owner/drivers etc would be up shit creek.


Like any legal document though, it's only as good as the person putting it together which is why it does not pay to take a DIY approach to this sort of thing. Well worth paying the $$ to a good professional.

Not to mention your ability to pursue it - just like patent breaches.

Now, to the original post... I fail to see the problem. The guy made plans and left, moving to another city, his plans didn't work out, he returned to an area where most of his friends probably reside and started his own business. Why do you feel he owes you anything? You presumably made money out of him while he was working for you. Shouldn't he be allowed to do his own thing? How would you like it if someone else tried to dictate where you were allowed to work in your trade just because you'd previously worked for them?

Competition is healthy. I'm self-employed and I have no fear of it - in the last month or so I was so over run with work having taken on some from a desperate friend that I had to get another self-employed person in my field to take on some of my work direct with one of my clients. Rather than seeing it as an opportunity to shaft me, the client views it as very ethical and helpful - their needs were met without any hassle to them. Who do you think they'll call first next time? The person who has proven they can get the job done with the minimum of fuss.

You're already a leg up on this guy anyway - you're established in the area and presumably have a good reputation. Don't let pettiness tarnish that.

[Maha]

Spent a good part of today on the North Shore. Visited eight flooring shops looking for work. Got two :no: and two 'maybe, leave ya number' answers. But also got four positives, nothing concrete but, I know two of them personally and have worked with them in the past. The other two? good feeling about our conversation so hopefully something comes of it.

The other good news is, last week, I spent three days at a school sanding and coating 122sqm ready for floor coverings. My first time with this constuction company and I was rapt with how it all went. I sent them an email, a really good email about the job site and the way it was run. I got an email form that company today wanting me to price two classrooms for them at another school close by, so all n' all its been a relatively productive day.

[cs363]

Good work - nice to see things are moving forward in a positive way Maha :)

[ynot slow]

Bloody must be holidays ahead,with school jobs on horizon,2 weeks goes fast,especially when the painters are supposed to be out at end of term,but still there middle of week 1,fun tripping over flooring guys while trying to hang blinds.Even if we're all from same firm,at least we could say fuck off back and forth and not get pissed off with each other.

[Gareth51]

Onwards and upwards Mark,as one door closes another shell open.
Looking foward to catching up on the 3rd