Calling all pilots! What is it?

[Genestho]

Wow!

This morning and yesterday morning, just after 10am - a plane - mono winged has been flying low over my gaff, and now circling above!! We buzz out, it's so awesome!!! We wave madly at him!

I want to thank the pilot for providing us a buzz!

I didn't grab the serial number :doh: and have googled, but I can't find out what it is!

But I don't really know enough!

White mono winged, with Red stars underneath, sounds grunty as!!! You can definately hear him coming!! COOL!

[Maha]

Im no pilot but could it be a Pitt Special?
Is it a small plane?

[Jantar]

Can't be a pitt if its a mono.

[Pussy]

Maybe a Yak 52?
Doing aerobatics is it, T.G.W?

[Genestho]

um, (I'm a girl remember LOL) er...strain...not as big as a catalina?:blank:

[Genestho]

Maybe a Yak 52?
Doing aerobatics is it, T.G.W?

No he flys really low, can hear him for ages, and we come running out, then he does a semi circle above us!

BUT, there are quite a few out this way that practise areobatics, usually around this time! He may have been miles away practising and going back to the airport! Might do a search!

[Pussy]

These are Yak 52s

[Genestho]

Actually looking, it could be a yak? I'll have to look again, I noticed the cockpit looked a bit different.
Hopefully he flys over again on Monday, and I'll grab the serial!

[Owl]

We wave madly at him!

Don't encourage him, he'll get a swelled head

Noisy bloody pilots:rolleyes:

[Pussy]

When I got back to NP aerodrome one evening about 2 years ago, I was fortunate enough to be offered the rear seat in Brett Emeny's Yak 52 when the team was doing a formation aerobatic practice session. Bloody good buzz!

[Pussy]

Don't encourage him, he'll get a swelled head

Noisy bloody pilots:rolleyes:

Especially when they have the capability to drop something unsavoury on you, eh Owl?...... :devil2:

[Genestho]

When I got back to NP aerodrome one evening about 2 years ago, I was foetunate enough to be offered the rear seat in Brett Emeny's Yak 52 when the team was doing a formation aerobatic practice session. Bloody good buzz!


Oh I bet!!! I've been up on a few sedate flights round here, wouldn't mind going on an aerobatic flight!!!!:headbang:

Feel like I could do with a decent hairblow back! Teee heeee

[BMWST?]

Wow!

This morning and yesterday morning, just after 10am - a plane - mono winged has been flying low over my gaff, and now circling above!! We buzz out, it's so awesome!!! We wave madly at him!

I want to thank the pilot for providing us a buzz!

I didn't grab the serial number :doh: and have googled, but I can't find out what it is!

But I don't really know enough!

White mono winged, with Red stars underneath, sounds grunty as!!! You can definately hear him coming!! COOL!

take a picture next time

[Owl]

Especially when they have the capability to drop something unsavoury on you, eh Owl?...... :devil2:

Unsavoury???

Bombs would be unsavoury!:yes:

[Genestho]

take a picture next time

Good Idea! I'll get my camera ready for 10 am Monday!! Hopefully can post a photo up! (If I can keep from jumping up and down teehee)

[Pussy]

Unsavoury???

Bombs would be unsavoury!:yes:

..... and superphosphate, and meatbombs......

[slofox]

So...he keeps coming back huh..? Do you have any clothes on when you run out to wave to him..?

[James Deuce]

White with red stars.

It's either a Yak 52 or a Polikarpov 1-16.

Just so you know, If you've never done aerobatics you WILL mind doing it. Take plenty of sick bags.

[Genestho]

White with red stars.

It's either a Yak 52 or a Polikarpov 1-16.

Just so you know, If you've never done aerobatics you WILL mind doing it. Take plenty of sick bags.


Good point! I don't like throwing up on myself!!! :laugh: :clap:

[Boob Johnson]

What part of the country are you located? That might make it easier to identify the plane. Was the wing mounted on top of the fuselage or underneath?

Love those WW2 Yak's :clap:



Unsavoury???

Bombs would be unsavoury!:yes:
"Plane fly overhead, drop value of home, in Beirut, plane fly overhead & drop bomb, I like DIS plane"


:D

[Mully]

"Plane fly overhead, drop value of home, in Beirut, plane fly overhead & drop bomb, I like DIS plane"


"I pay cash now."
"No, no, hold ya horses. What is it is wogs and cash?"

Best. Movie. Ever.

[Owl]

"I pay cash now."
"No, no, hold ya horses. What is it is wogs and cash?"

Best. Movie. Ever.

Ain't that the truth!:lol:

[Boob Johnson]

"I pay cash now."
"No, no, hold ya horses. What is it is wogs and cash?"

Best. Movie. Ever.
And the bling goes to Mr Mully :clap:


Saw this for the first time while living in Oz, bunch of us watched it 7 times in a short space of time, absolute classic :2thumbsup

[Mully]

Saw this for the first time while living in Oz, bunch of us watched it 7 times in a short space of time, absolute classic :2thumbsup

I have the "Pool Room" version on DVD - it's got a pool-table velvet cover for the DVD case. Plus the music and lyrics for "We're going to Bonnydoone"

I was gonna send it straight to the Pool room, but then I couldn't have watched it.

[Genestho]

What part of the country are you located? That might make it easier to identify the plane. Was the wing mounted on top of the fuselage or underneath?

Love those WW2 Yak's :clap:

:D

I'm in Tauranga, sort of under an unofficial flight path, we have Classic Flyers the museum here too.

We normally see Harvards, a P51 Mustang, local small planes, a catalina swooped low over the beach once, that was awesome!!!!

Haven't seen this plane before, it did have a WWII feel to it?

Erm, can't remember where the wing was mounted...was looking at the cockpit, the stars on the wings, and listening to the engine!! LOL, that was the limit of my observing powers!!:lol:

I'm going to be SO embarrassed if this wasn't something extra special!!
Sounded too awesome to be run of the mill though!

If it is a yak52, I think it could be this one:

http://www.kiwiaircraftimages.com/pages/95yak1.html Would that make sense? It was red and white

[Boob Johnson]

I have the "Pool Room" version on DVD - it's got a pool-table velvet cover for the DVD case. Plus the music and lyrics for "We're going to Bonnydoone"

I was gonna send it straight to the Pool room, but then I couldn't have watched it.
Ha ha, nice



I'm in Tauranga, sort of under an unofficial flight path, we have Classic Flyers the museum here too.

We normally see Harvards, a P51 Mustang, local small planes, a catalina swooped low over the beach once, that was awesome!!!!

Haven't seen this plane before, it did have a WWII feel to it?

Erm, can't remember where the wing was mounted...was looking at the cockpit, the stars on the wings, and listening to the engine!! LOL, that was the limit of my observing powers!!:lol:

I'm going to be SO embarrassed if this wasn't something extra special!!
Sounded too awesome to be run of the mill though!

If it is a yak52, I think it could be this one:

http://www.kiwiaircraftimages.com/pages/95yak1.html Would that make sense? It was red and white
Mustangs! You lucky thing! They sound AMAZING, nothing quite like a V12 Merlin in full song. Only THE best prop plane & the "little friend" to the heavy bomber crews of WW2

[James Deuce]

Only THE best prop plane......

When you aim to spread the bullshit you really shovel hard, don't you?

P47N, LA9, Spit 21, F4U-5, Dora 9, TA152, Do335, Tempest Mk5, Fury, all of them would have the average Runstang pile-it crying into his cereal.

The only "best" thing about the 51 was sheer number of them in the sky.

[Genestho]

Ha ha, nice



Mustangs! You lucky thing! They sound AMAZING, nothing quite like a V12 Merlin in full song. Only THE best prop plane & the "little friend" to the heavy bomber crews of WW2
I know!!!!!

The P51 is my absolute favourite, I fell in love at Wanaka years ago!!!!!:clap:
The sound is amazing!! Can't wait till they take it out again!!!!:banana:

[Boob Johnson]

When you aim to spread the bullshit you really shovel hard, don't you?

P47N, LA9, Spit 21, F4U-5, Dora 9, TA152, Do335, all of them woul dhave the average Runstang pile-it crying into his cereal.
lol James. Let's start with the Thunderbolt...........pffff. You don't see a TB flying faster than a Mustang or escorting deep into Germany AND back :nono:


Suppose you think the Spitfire is a better plane than the Hurricane too!

[Genestho]

When you aim to spread the bullshit you really shovel hard, don't you?

P47N, LA9, Spit 21, F4U-5, Dora 9, TA152, Do335, all of them would have the average Runstang pile-it crying into his cereal.

The only "best" thing about the 51 was sheer number of them in the sky.

:lol: Awwwwwwwww, ok the spitty is cool too!

[James Deuce]

lol James. Let's start with the Thunderbolt...........pffff. You don't see a TB flying faster than a Mustang or escorting deep into Germany AND back :nono:

The P47N was designed to fly escort missions in the Pacific. It could fly to and from Germany from bases in the UK twice on full external and internal fuel loads. It had a higher top speed than the 51D.

[slofox]

I know!!!!!

The P51 is my absolute favourite, I fell in love at Wanaka years ago!!!!!:clap:
The sound is amazing!! Can't wait till they take it out again!!!!:banana:

Listen to this then...

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xlxtZSxF3pE&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xlxtZSxF3pE&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[James Deuce]

Bristol sleeve valve radials make Merlins sound like Harleys.

[Boob Johnson]

It could fly to and from Germany from bases in the UK twice on full external and internal fuel loads. It had a higher top speed than the 51D.
That I was unaware of, I always thought the P51 was the fastest from the many doco's ive seen. I stand corrected, the P-47 wasn't as good at dog fighting as the P51 but as hell was an awesome tank buster

[Genestho]

Listen to this then...



That, was sex on wings! Awesome! Thankyou:first:

That youtube footage, confirmed what JD said in an earlier post. If I have a go at aerobatics, I will be blowing chunks, and I will be screaming!!!! :lol:

[Pussy]

Love those WW2 Yak's :clap:




Except the Yak 52 was designed and built in the '70s

[Boob Johnson]

Except the Yak 52 was designed and built in the '70s
Was referring to the Yak 9, hence why I said "love those WW2 Yak's"....not "love those WW2 Yak 52's" :msn-wink:

[Pussy]

And don't worry about getting too crook as a passenger in an aerobatic plane, T.G.W..... properly executed aeros aren't too hard on the bod!

Snap rolls, spins and outside loops are a bit, but not a requirement to enjoy and experience an exciting aerobatic flight

[James Deuce]

That I was unaware of, I always thought the P51 was the fastest from the many doco's ive seen. I stand corrected, the P-47 wasn't as good at dog fighting as the P51 but as hell was an awesome tank buster

There is a great deal of mythology surrounding the 51, largely because of irascible old bastards like Yeager. Combined with the fact that the 51 was one of the few aircraft that remained on the active roster post-war and it seems like it was the only prop aircraft that was any "good". The D model was in fact a really difficult aircraft to fly when it was fully fuelled as the CG was moved aft of the Centre of Lift making it very unstable until that tank was burned off. One of the P51H test pilots (it may have even been Corky Meyer) reported getting tangled up with a F4U-5 over a Marine airbase near San Francisco in the lat '40s and discovered that the latest, greatest P51 couldn't hang with the latest model Corsair either in the vertical or a turning fight, plus it had much stronger acceleration. The F4U-5 pilot was John Glenn.

Robert Johnson would argue that in a pure dogfight the advantages of the 47 outweighed many of the perceived flaws and was happy to engage in mock combats with any aliied aircraft to prove the point. Out-zoom climbing Johnnie Johnson who was flying a Spitfire Mk IX disproved a perception that power to weight ratio hindered the 47 in the vertical in any way, and using this move to gain a dead 6 position of the Spit proceeded to give JEJ, the official highest Allied scoring Ace (excluding the Russkis), a lesson in vectors rolls and rolling scissors.

Flat turning in a dogfight is a good way to get killed and maintaining an energy advantage over an enemy is vital. A Spitfire is particularly good at flat turns, so Robert Johnson setup a fight to his advantage. A vector roll is where an enemy banks 90 degrees to the left, the following aircraft banks 270 degrees to the right and then uses the elevators to pull through the line of the aurcraft in front. Robert Johnson "invented" the vector roll to deal with supposedly more manouverable aircraft and this meant a firing solution could be presented very quickly. The P47 had a tremendous roll rate, only technically beaten by the early models of FW190 (A3-A5). Usuall the firing solution woul dend up with the aircraft out of sight under the nose, but Robert Johnson's Situational Awareness (something all motorcyclists should have in abundance) was so well developed that he would score without seeing the bullets hitting home. The weight of fire of 8 .50 caliber machine guns was pretty gnarly too.

Don't believe everything you read about an aircraft's performance. Just like motorcycling, it ain't the plane, it's the pilot.

[James Deuce]

And don't worry about getting too crook as a passenger in an aerobatic plane, T.G.W..... properly executed aeros aren't too hard on the bod!

Snap rolls, spins and outside loops are a bit, but not a requirement to enjoy and experience an exciting aerobatic flight

It's not the bod that's the issue. It's the head. If you don't know to look where the aircraft is going you get disoriented and ill really fast. Depends on whether or not the pile-it wants a laugh or is genuinely trying to make a passenger enjoy themselves.

[Genestho]

It's not the bod that's the issue. It's the head. If you don't know to look where the aircraft is going you get disoriented and ill really fast. Depends on whether or not the pile-it wants a laugh or is genuinely trying to make a passenger enjoy themselves.

I'll give him a debriefing! (could be a chunky one :lol:)
So James, are you saying "eyes front" at all times? Ooooooooooer I can feel the G's

[Pussy]

It's not the bod that's the issue. It's the head. If you don't know to look where the aircraft is going you get disoriented and ill really fast. Depends on whether or not the pile-it wants a laugh or is genuinely trying to make a passenger enjoy themselves.

I used to do a lot of aerobatic flying... only had one victim that got crook! :)

And regarding the Mustang... the laminar flow wing was good for speed, but when it stalled, IT STALLED, no "in between" warnings as such

[James Deuce]

I used to do a lot of aerobatic flying... only had one victim that got crook! :)

And regarding the Mustang... the laminar flow wing was good for speed, but when it stalled, IT STALLED, no "in between" warnings as such

Sorry to be a pedantic doodlehead, but no mass production aircraft had a laminar wing. The Mustang was a clean design, but got it's main speed boost from its radiator design. Cool air would go in and hot air would exit at a higher speed than it went in, creating boost. This is called the Meredith Effect.

[Boob Johnson]

There is a great deal of mythology surrounding the 51, largely because of irascible old bastards like Yeager. Combined with the fact that the 51 was one of the few aircraft that remained on the active roster post-war and it seems like it was the only prop aircraft that was any "good". The D model was in fact a really difficult aircraft to fly when it was fully fuelled as the CG was moved aft of the Centre of Lift making it very unstable until that tank was burned off. One of the P51H test pilots (it may have even been Corky Meyer) reported getting tangled up with a F4U-5 over a Marine airbase near San Francisco in the lat '40s and discovered that the latest, greatest P51 couldn't hang with the latest model Corsair either in the vertical or a turning fight, plus it had much stronger acceleration. The F4U-5 pilot was John Glenn.

Robert Johnson would argue that in a pure dogfight the advantages of the 47 outweighed many of the perceived flaws and was happy to engage in mock combats with any aliied aircraft to prove the point. Out-zoom climbing Johnnie Johnson who was flying a Spitfire Mk IX disproved a perception that power to weight ratio hindered the 47 in the vertical in any way, and using this move to gain a dead 6 position of the Spit proceeded to give JEJ, the official highest Allied scoring Ace (excluding the Russkis), a lesson in vectors rolls and rolling scissors.

Flat turning in a dogfight is a good way to get killed and maintaining an energy advantage over an enemy is vital. A Spitfire is particularly good at flat turns, so Robert Johnson setup a fight to his advantage. A vector roll is where an enemy banks 90 degrees to the left, the following aircraft banks 270 degrees to the right and then uses the elevators to pull through the line of the aurcraft in front. Robert Johnson "invented" the vector roll to deal with supposedly more manouverable aircraft and this meant a firing solution could be presented very quickly. The P47 had a tremendous roll rate, only technically beaten by the early models of FW190 (A3-A5). Usuall the firing solution woul dend up with the aircraft out of sight under the nose, but Robert Johnson's Situational Awareness (something all motorcyclists should have in abundance) was so well developed that he would score without seeing the bullets hitting home. The weight of fire of 8 .50 caliber machine guns was pretty gnarly too.

Don't believe everything you read about an aircraft's performance. Just like motorcycling, it ain't the plane, it's the pilot.
The thing that I find rather frustrating is the conflicting info, in both doco's & online text, some completely contradict others <_<

[Pussy]

And one well placed bullet could bring a P-51 to an inglorious end... I believe the engine ran for about 10 seconds once the coolant was gone.
Radial powered aircraft have been known to keep running even with a jug shot off

[Pussy]

Sorry to be a pedantic doodlehead, but no mass production aircraft had a laminar wing. The Mustang was a clean design, but got it's main speed boost from its radiator design. Cool air would go in and hot air would exit at a higher speed than it went in, creating boost. This is called the Meredith Effect.

Check out the profile of a Mustang aerofoil... especially the ailerons that flare out at the trailing edge... they were/are laminar flow design

[James Deuce]

The thing that I find rather frustrating is the conflicting info, in both doco's & online text, some completely contradict others <_<

Read biographies. A lot of the documentaries are extremely superficial. The myth that the RAF were responsible for the Mustang going into production persists to this day, thanks to a lot of "historians" regurgitating accepted rumours as facts.

The interesting thing about reading the biographies of the pilots is that they all believed that their personal mount was the best thing in the sky. They had to. But that belief often uncovered capabilities that go well beyond accepted performance parameters, or the history relayed by the victors. Remember the winners get to write the accepted version of history.

[James Deuce]

Check out the profile of a Mustang aerofoil... especially the ailerons that flare out at the trailing edge... they were/are laminar flow design
Design yes. But mass production and the demands of wartime operations meant that they didn't remain laminar flow aerofoil sections for long. The Brits did a huge amount of research with the Supermarine Spiteful and couldn't get it to work as expected thanks mainly to bug impacts and condensation on the leading edge of the aerofoil.

As you've already pointed out, the weird chord of a laminar flow wing meant ugly stall departure characteristics.

The Mustang was quicker than its horsepower would suggest mainly because of the Meredith Effect, not the aerofoil.

[Pussy]

The specific NACA section of the P-51 wing is laminar... and the Spitfire had more of a "lift" wing section than the P-51. Which is why it could turn tighter, but had less speed. My steed would probably only do 200 knots even with 1300 hp under the bonnet because of the section

[BMWST?]

Ha ha, nice



Mustangs! You lucky thing! They sound AMAZING, nothing quite like a V12 Merlin in full song. Only THE best prop plane & the "little friend" to the heavy bomber crews of WW2

a RR merlin sound better than the Packard versions....dont know why,or if it is a spitfire with a RR merlin sounds better than a mustang with a packard merlin

[Pussy]

a RR merlin sound better than the Packard versions....dont know why,or if it is a spitfire with a RR merlin sounds better than a mustang with a packard merlin

The different propellers give that effect.
The Spitfire had a Dowty-Rotol propeller with wooden blades (funnily enough, all Spitfires flying today have blades made by Hoffmann...in Germany), whereas the Mustang had a metal bladed Hamilton Standard propeller


Edit: The Mk XVI Spitfire and the P-51D both had Packard built Merlins in them, but sound quite different

[BMWST?]

The different propellers give that effect.
The Spitfire had a Dowty-Rotol propeller with wooden blades (funnily enough, all Spitfires flying today have blades made by Hoffmann...in Germany), whereas the Mustang had metal bladed Hamilton Standard propellers


Edit: The Mk XVI Spitfire and the P-51D both had Packard built Merlins in them, but sound quite different

makes sense,at wanaka one year, the spitfire(griffon i think) but might have been a earlier one did sound nicer(to me any way) than the mustang

[Pussy]

makes sense,at wanaka one year, the spitfire(griffon i think) but might have been a earlier one did sound nicer(to me any way) than the mustang

Yep, the Mk XIV had the Griffon (rotated opposite the Merlin, too)
I saw the late Tom Middleton display the Mk XIV in Nelson in 1995.... I reckon the Griffon sounded more like a 400hp Fletcher than a Spitfire!

[James Deuce]

The Packard Merlins did not garner a positive operational reputation in the RAF. I had a Spitfire pilot living around the corner from me who flew in the BoB, Burma, and back in Europe at the end of the war, and his favourite Spit was the Mk VIII. He finished the war flying Mk XIVs, but spent a small amount of time in XVIs prior to that and was disgusted to find his Erks working through the night after every operation, due to the low usage hour ratings of the Packard Merlins.

The Merlin 61s in the Mk VIIIs on the other hand were barely looked at, despite working in a dusty, hot tropical environment.

The US struggled with UK imperial measurements and Euro metric measurements throughout the war. They botched making their own version of the Oerlikon 20mm cannon thanks to trying to make the chambers conform to US armory (sic) measurement standards.

[Pussy]

The Packard Merlins did not garner a positive operational reputation in the RAF. I had a Spitfire pilot living around the corner from me who flew in the BoB, Burma, and back in Europe at the end of the war, and his favourite Spit was the Mk VIII. He finished the war flying Mk XIVs, but spent a small amount of time in XVIs prior to that and was disgusted to find his Erks working through the night after every operation, due to the low usage hour ratings of the Packard Merlins.

The Merlin 61s in the Mk VIIIs on the other hand were barely looked at, despite working in a dusty, hot tropical environment.

The US struggled with UK imperial measurements and Euro metric measurements throughout the war. They botched making their own version of the Oerlikon 20mm cannon thanks to trying to make the chambers conform to US armory (sic) measurement standards.

Haha! Got to beg to differ with you there, James!
The Packard was a FAR superior engine than the pommy built version! :niceone:

[R6_kid]

Is it also true that Packard Merlins weren't finished to the same standard as the RR ones - I heard that Packard didn't clean the castings up whereas RR did.
Don't the Reno guys prefer the Packard's over the RR's.

[James Deuce]

I'll dig some hard data up. You might be shocked. The Packard Merlin 266 in particular generated more more RTBs due to engine trouble than the Merlin 66, by a large margin.

I have the stats here somewhere. Also specific power outputs suffer in comparison, again particularly the 266 compared to the 66.

[Pussy]

Is it also true that Packard Merlins weren't finished to the same standard as the RR ones - I heard that Packard didn't clean the castings up whereas RR did.
Don't the Reno guys prefer the Packard's over the RR's.

Packards were built to better tolerances than the hand finished Rolls Royce ones were, despite being manufactured by automotive mass production techniques

[James Deuce]

Is it also true that Packard Merlins weren't finished to the same standard as the RR ones - I heard that Packard didn't clean the castings up whereas RR did.
Don't the Reno guys prefer the Packard's over the RR's.

Because they can easily get bits. I have a mate working for a company that does nothing but new build Packard Merlins and Pratt & Whitney R2800 radials. The biggest job they did was re-engineering R3350s for a B29 called Fifi, incorporating crank oil feed improvements drawn up but not implemented on WW2 aircraft.

[Pussy]

I'll give him a debriefing! (could be a chunky one :lol:)
So James, are you saying "eyes front" at all times? Ooooooooooer I can feel the G's

A technicolour debrief, huh? :D

A well executed barrell roll is barely discernable (I'm VERY rusty on aerobatics, so not referring to moi as pilot!) to the bod.
It's great fun, T.G.W!

[Bass]

A technicolour debrief, huh? :D

A well executed barrell roll is barely discernable (I'm VERY rusty on aerobatics, so not referring to moi as pilot!) to the bod.
It's great fun, T.G.W!

Have flown aeros occasionally and as the man said, it's not too bad if you have a pilot who is trying to show you a good time rather than a hard time. Also, if you can handle the controls, it's less uncomfortable when you are doing the driving, rather than just along for the ride. I can't explain that but it is an almost universal comment from those who have done both.
It also depends a bit on the aircraft because many manoevres can be done more gently if you have more power available. I was more comfortable in the front of a 2 place Pitts with 360 hp than in a Slingsby Firefly with only 110. The roll rate in the Pitts was really cool - how to make the world go round real quick.

[Bass]

The specific NACA section of the P-51 wing is laminar... and the Spitfire had more of a "lift" wing section than the P-51. Which is why it could turn tighter, but had less speed. My steed would probably only do 200 knots even with 1300 hp under the bonnet because of the section

Laminar flow wings are really tricky beasts. I was involved in racing model aircraft for over a decade and we experimented with laminar aerofoils a great deal and with much success. The problem was the accuracy with which they had to be made. There were 3 varsity students across the world who gained their Phd's designing wings for model racers and the best of them had to be so accurately made that the only way was to mould them in carbon fibre. The hassle was that the CNC machine time required to make the moulds cost about $10,000. Even so, it was done and you could buy a set of wings. The end result was a model that with the right motor, was capable of something approaching 400 kph according to a radar gun. More surprisingly, they had a very gentle stall and were really forgiving at low speeds. Their high speed stall was never found. On the race course 40 to 50 G's in the turns were required to be competitive and the wings would snap off before they stalled.

[Bass]

Packards were built to better tolerances than the hand finished Rolls Royce ones were, despite being manufactured by automotive mass production techniques

My understanding on this one was that the tolerances between Packards was much better largely because of the mass production but that the tolerances within a single engine were better on the RR. However I stand to be corrected on this if someone can come up with hard data.

[James Deuce]

My understanding on this one was that the tolerances between Packards was much better largely because of the mass production but that the tolerances within a single engine were better on the RR. However I stand to be corrected on this if someone can come up with hard data.

Trying to find it - I did a big reasearch effort on another forum but the article has been archived. It was nearly 10 years ago.

[Kickaha]

The only "best" thing about the 51 was sheer number of them in the sky.

The Sherman of the skys:cool:



Suppose you think the Spitfire is a better plane than the Hurricane too!

Well they did shoot down more planes far faster turnaround on the ground and were easier to repair :bleh:

I like the Mosquito best anyway

[Maha]

Can't be a pitt if its a mono.

Maybe he lost one while performing and inside-out loop?? :(

[BMWST?]

the merlin was supposed to be overhauled if the throttle was ever pushed "through the gate"This engaged BOTH superchargers(the second one was only supposed to operate at higher altitude)During the battle of Britain this might happen several times on each flight !

The real success of the spitfire can be perhaps attributed to Rolls Royce always being able to respond to the quest for more horsepower.I think the mk1 had about 1000 hp but by the end of the war the griffon was producing 2500 hp

[Owl]

Well they did shoot down more planes far faster turnaround on the ground and were easier to repair :bleh:

Isn't that back to front?

[dangerous]

Bristol sleeve valve radials make Merlins sound like Harleys.
haha... I like your way of thinking man :apint:


Listen to this then... Ahhh yes and hes only idling to, love the super charger sound, the Sea Fury used a 2480-hp Bristol Centaurus 18-cylinder radial, altho the V12 (mk24 spitty went up to a v24) sound awesome thers no way you can beat the sound of a radial... there used to be a fury in NZ that one in the vid could be it as it went to the UK, I have been luckynuff to have sat in it :banana:

ps, Wigram musume has a square/flat 24 from a grumman possibly on the floor.. that I'd love to hear.

[Kickaha]

Isn't that back to front?

good call, I right royally fucked that up

fuck all those single engined pussies anyway

[James Deuce]

Suppose you think the Spitfire is a better plane than the Hurricane too!

Lets have a look at that shall we.

Hurricane - Produced in 4 versions, development ceased in 1942. Construction techniques were late '20s early '30s, skin was mixed fabric and aluminium. Retired from frontline duty in 1944, but had been effectively retired in '42 by placing them in secondary theatres like Africa, the Middle East, and South East Asia.

Spitfire - Produced in more than 20 versions, still in service in the late 50s in Hong Kong flying PR (Photo Recon) missions over China. Stressed aluminium skin, early fabric ailerons gave way to metal covered ones from the Mk 4 (Actually the development mules for the Griffon engine project. They have more in common with the Mk VII than teh V)

Neither was "better" than the other, they were simply different aircraft with very different roles, and the Hurricane fell victim to obsolescence earlier than the Spitfire due to construction techniques required to produce it (Chicks with air wrenches and rivet guns are not good at joinery and rigging) and the fact that Hawker replaced it with the Typhoon, rather than trying to develop an out of date dead end. The Typhoon suffered at high altitude because it used a development of the concept used for the Hurricane's wing and had a very thick chord wing (ratio of depth to width). This wing design and very powerful engine in the Napier Sabre (once the bugs were ironed out - H engines are always trouble) made it an excellent ordinance truck instead.

Hurricane and Spitfire? Apples and Cockroaches. It's like saying an RF900 is better than a BMW GS1200.

[Pussy]

I've got a Centaurus piston from a Sea Fury in my shed....

[James Deuce]

I've got a Centaurus piston from a Sea Fury in my shed....
I'm on the way. Just have to stash the kids somewhere.

Is it mounted on an altar?

[Pussy]

I'm on the way. Just have to stash the kids somewhere.

Is it mounted on an altar?

No... but it should be!
It still has carbon on the crown, and the rings on it. I just put the verniers across it... 145.5mm bore

[Kickaha]

There's a Hurricane coming up for sale if anyone is interested in it?
http://www.odt.co.nz/your-town/wanaka/71219/for-sale-sir-tim039s-ww2-hurricane-market

[Pussy]

(mk24 spitty went up to a v24) Wigram musume has a square/flat 24 from a grumman possibly on the floor.. that I'd love to hear.

The Mk24 was still a V12 (Griffon)

The "H" engine at Wigram (basically 2 horizontally opposed 12s driving a common shaft) is a Napier Sabre out of a Typhoon/Tempest

[Bass]

I've got a Centaurus piston from a Sea Fury in my shed....
Awesome!

Where do you live?

I have a cutaway drawing of a Sabre on my computer at work. Actually, I think I got it when someone posted it in one of these forums.

What a complicated beast, but what a compact package for the power output.

[Pussy]

Awesome!

Where do you live?

I'll go take a pic of it and post it here.
It was from a whole lot of stuff that was used to get the Fury that was rebuilt in Ardmore flying a few years ago


Edit: Sully 60 has seen it!

[Bass]

Trying to find it - I did a big reasearch effort on another forum but the article has been archived. It was nearly 10 years ago.

Following with interest.

Harking back to the original post for a moment - if it is a Yak 52 that he was looking at, someone out at Ardmore once told me that the 52 was one of the best bangs for the dollar around when capability and cost are taken into account. The M14P that powers them went out of production in 1998 but there are heaps of them still around. and if worst comes to worst, the Chinese version in the Nangchang will bolt straight in.
Looked at bolting one into our Wilga when she threw a conrod. It's a common mod but there is no factory paperwork for it and so we would have been relegated to experimental.

[dangerous]

The Mk24 was still a V12 (Griffon)

The "H" engine at Wigram (basically 2 horizontally opposed 12s driving a common shaft) is a Napier Sabre out of a Typhoon/Tempest
ahh yes thats right, still love to hear one

At Omaka they hve verious running engins on trailers, so ya get to stand right next to them... and thats loud.

[BiK3RChiK]

The only aerobatics I've done were in a Tiger Moth... Interesting thread, TGW! Hehe.. I've sat in one of those Mustang cockpits but that's it... I think Steve has flown in one though. We had a lot of planes fly in when we lived in the Far North, what with it being the last fuel stop before heading off-shore, and it was certainly very interesting at the Aero Club up there some days.

[Pussy]

ahh yes thats right, still love to hear one

At Omaka they hve verious running engins on trailers, so ya get to stand right next to them... and thats loud.

There's some bloody neat stuff at Omaka!
I was there at the beginning of the month at a conference.... Alistair Marshall cranked up the Bristol Freighter for us.. man that sounded nice!

[dangerous]

There's some bloody neat stuff at Omaka!
I was there at the beginning of the month at a conference.... Alistair Marshall cranked up the Bristol Freighter for us.. man that sounded nice! Yeah now they need to find a wistling wheelbarrow (both flowen by safe air) that would be kinda cool, I remember the things as a kid.

[Bass]

the merlin was supposed to be overhauled if the throttle was ever pushed "through the gate"This engaged BOTH superchargers(the second one was only supposed to operate at higher altitude)During the battle of Britain this might happen several times on each flight !


I knew a guy who converted a brand new Merlin to diesel and dropped it into a fishing boat.

Sacrilege!!!!!

On the face of it, it's impossible because they were only 6.5 to 1 compression ratio, but by locking the second stage of the blower in, he had enough boost at only 500 rpm. Glow plugs to start of course and it turned out to be a remarkably economical motor.

[dangerous]

I knew a guy who converted a brand new Merlin to diesel and dropped it into a fishing boat.

any one remember "redhead"
now tucked up at Southwards still with the hole in her belly from were the 'Allison' V12 throw a blade off the propeller.

[Genestho]

The only aerobatics I've done were in a Tiger Moth... ....

I've thought about the Tiger Moth, how was that babe?

[wbks]

How to you people scab a ride in those planes?

[Genestho]

LOL! we pay what they're worth? This is not WINZ subsidised

[wbks]

LOL! we pay what they're worth? This is not WINZ subsidisedAre you telling me there is some sort of "have a go day" for ww2 fighter planes?

[Genestho]

Are you telling me there is some sort of "have a go day" for ww2 fighter planes?
Hah! Wouldn't that be FANTASTIC! Can't organise that though!

[wbks]

Hah! Wouldn't that be FANTASTIC! Can't organise that though!NOT the answer I was hoping for, miss
Not even sitting in as passenger?

[Genestho]

NOT the answer I was hoping for, miss
Not even sitting in as passenger?

:Oi: Sort it out, let me know :bleh:

[Pussy]

Sorry for taking your thread off track, T.G.W! :o

Here are a couple of shots of the Centaurus piston, folks!

[wbks]

:Oi: Sort it out, let me know :bleh:I'm not really in the aviation scene (so I can't sort anything out ATM) , but if I win lotto I'll learn to fly and buy a Zero to fly people around in every August 29th. Deal?

[Pussy]

:Oi: Sort it out, let me know :bleh:

It's not What you know, but...

eh, T.G.W?!

[Genestho]

I'm not really in the aviation scene, but if I win lotto, I'll learn to fly and buy a Zero to fly people around in every August 29th. Deal?

Buy and fly a P51 Mustang please, every week? :bleh: And we'll do a deal?:clap:

[Pussy]

Buy and fly a P51 Mustang please, every week? :bleh: And we'll do a deal?:clap:

You have GREAT taste in aeroplanes! :niceone:

[Genestho]

You have GREAT taste in aeroplanes! :niceone:
I know what I like :laugh:

[BiK3RChiK]

I've thought about the Tiger Moth, how was that babe?

It was 'delicate'! Haha... like a butterfly as opposed to a native hawk! lol

I didn't barf either......

Oh, and we were members of the Kaitaia Aero Club many moons ago when Steve had his pilots license, and got to fly in some of the planes that frequently dropped in. The Aero Club up there often had open days for the public to come and view and have a ride in, especially when 'special' planes had been organised to fly in! It was awesome!... and expensive!!

[BiK3RChiK]

Are you telling me there is some sort of "have a go day" for ww2 fighter planes?

When we were in the Aero Club up North, there was... It was awesome too! :woohoo:

[wbks]

It was 'delicate'! Haha... like a butterfly as opposed to a native hawk! lol

I didn't barf either......

Oh, and we were members of the Kaitaia Aero Club many moons ago when Steve had his pilots license, and got to fly in some of the planes that frequently dropped in. The Aero Club up there often had open days for the public to come and view and have a ride in, especially when 'special' planes had been organised to fly in! It was awesome!... and expensive!!Are there any events like that going on, still?

[BiK3RChiK]

Are there any events like that going on, still?

Well, it's over 15 years since I moved away from the Far North, and have only been back once ( and that was once too much! ), so I couldn't tell you. Steve says that when he went back recently, much of it had changed, what with PCness gone mad... I think all airports had to fence and keep the public out on account of terrorism or some such! Gone are the days of hooning around on the airfield at night chasing bunnies in the rear wheel drive car!;)

I certainly haven't seen any events, like those that were held up in Kaitaia, down here in Whakatane....

[wbks]

Well, it's over 15 years since I moved away from the Far North, and have only been back once ( and that was once too much! ), so I couldn't tell you. Steve says that when he went back recently, much of it had changed, what with PCness gone mad... I think all airports had to fence and keep the public out on account of terrorism or some such! Gone are the days of hooning around on the airfield at night chasing bunnies in the rear wheel drive car!;)

I certainly haven't seen any events, like those that were held up in Kaitaia, down here in Whakatane....Yes, because we all know (what with the Northland, New Zealand being the homeland of Muslim extremists) , if security slipped we might have a national crisis on our hands! I thought it sounded too good to be true:pinch:

[Bass]

I know what I like :laugh:

If you want a ride in a Mustang, it can be arranged. Call in on the warbirds at Ardmore and show them the colour of your money. The price will have gone up by now, but the last time I had a mate go up in the back seat, it cost him $1000 for half an hour.

If you are serious, PM me and I will make some enquiries.

[Pussy]

Last time I spoke to Graham Bethell (the owner/pilot of ZK TAF "NZ2415"), he indicated something like $2500-3000 per hour for the Mustang.
He has just spent a truckload of dosh having the prop inspected/overhauled in the states

[martybabe]

What an interesting thread and what a knowledgeable lot you are, however, slightly off thread topic tilt and at the risk of being shot by you piston heads, I present the following quick vid.

Sat atop a hill one day in sunny Jersey, one of these came up from behind and flew over my head not very many metres up, I literally shook from my head through every internal organ to my feet, never have I heard noise like it, I nearly weed with excitement.:gob:

Crank up the volume guys, it's like god's come to town and he's fuggin well angry.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VECwLl06ik0&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VECwLl06ik0&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[James Deuce]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/R3iMw7Q7H68&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/R3iMw7Q7H68&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

He was lucky to make it to Ohakea. Left the speed brake deployed (thingies poking up from the wings).

Jets are the only thing in the sky that manage to suck and blow at the same time.

[dangerous]

Are you telling me there is some sort of "have a go day" for ww2 fighter planes?
Used to be at Wigram till a certain group closed the air field down... 1-2k for a spin in a P51


Buy and fly a P51 Mustang please, every week? :bleh: And we'll do a deal?:clap:Due to living next to Wigram every week for a month Id get to hear and watch just that, and others, just like a air show in my back yard.


What an interesting thread and what a knowledgeable lot you are, however, slightly off thread topic tilt and at the risk of being shot by you piston heads, I present the following quick vid.

Now find ya self a vid of a Venum or Vampire... what an eary sound, a real jet boxed up in a plywood air frame... crazy but so cool.

[Madmax]

for all the piston heads
http://www.enginehistory.org/index.php

[Genestho]

If you want a ride in a Mustang, it can be arranged. Call in on the warbirds at Ardmore and show them the colour of your money. The price will have gone up by now, but the last time I had a mate go up in the back seat, it cost him $1000 for half an hour.

If you are serious, PM me and I will make some enquiries.

Well I am serious! You only live once!!!

We have a local Mustang, I haven't seen it in the air for awhile, so I might ask around, how one would go about going for fang!

If it's too much hard work, I'll give it a miss, but keep an ear out!

[BMWST?]

coupla points on random queries...most WW2 fighters are of course single seaters.
The capacity of these engines is huge.The merlin V12 is 26 litres.The griffon is 36 litres.Max revs is about 2500 RPM.
Another impresive WW2 fighter is the corsair.I didnt rate it the first time i saw it at Wanaka.However at Wairarapa at the beginning of this year the pilot gave a much better display..you could easily see why the Japanese troops referred to it as "whispering death",you could hardly hear it coming...Big strong fast plane

[BMWST?]

He was lucky to make it to Ohakea. Left the speed brake deployed (thingies poking up from the wings).

Jets are the only thing in the sky that manage to suck and blow at the same time.

i was at that air show(was a wee fella)Rongotai and still vaugely recall a aborted landing

[Pussy]

The merlin V12 is 26 litres.The griffon is 36 litres.Max revs is about 2500 RPM.


The Mustang on take-off uses 61" of boost and 3000rpm.... ahhh, sweet music!

[dangerous]

Avro Vulcan Near-crash Landing He was lucky to make it to Ohakea. Left the speed brake deployed (thingies poking up from the wings)
that be spoilers or air brakes...

Wellington, or Rongati as it was known back then, 1960 opening of the airport airshow, the Vulcan was a bitch to land, no reverse thrust, needed lotsa runway, which WLG does not have, tried to kiss the threshhold but got the wheels under the embankment, soo close to being totalled, pilot rammed emrg throttle, got off again, flew to Ohakea semi crash landed, took six weeks to fix.

That airport sometimes has the wind going in two different directions at either end of the runway, one of NAC's ZK BWO Viscounts fell down the embankment at that southern end when the pilot run out of road. caused a bit of chit chat. I think they promoted the pilot --- to a desk job if I have my facts correct.


We have a local Mustang, I haven't seen it in the air for awhile, so I might ask around, how one would go about going for fang! As far as I know there is only one duel seat P51 in NZ

[Pussy]

As far as I know there is only one duel seat P51 in NZ
Two... one lives at Wanaka, and one at Ardmore

[dipshit]

Mustangs! You lucky thing! They sound AMAZING, nothing quite like a V12 Merlin in full song.

But the link T.G.W gave ( http://www.kiwiaircraftimages.com/pages/95yak1.html ) wasn't a Mustang..???

[Genestho]

But the link T.G.W gave ( http://www.kiwiaircraftimages.com/pages/95yak1.html ) wasn't a Mustang..???

No, that's a link to a Yak52 (apparently - I know nussink of de yak:shifty:)

I'm trying to ascertain whether or not it's my circling plane, which - if it visits again at 10.00 hours tomorrow, I'm going to try to get a photo for confirmation from our KB Pilots and Enthusiasts.

[Pussy]

I reckon you might have a bit of Avgas running through your veins, T.G.W!

[dangerous]

I'm trying to ascertain whether or not it's my circling plane, which - if it visits again at 10.00 hours tomorrow, I'm going to try to get a photo for confirmation from our KB Pilots and Enthusiasts. does it resemble a saucer, with lots of lights and moves from side to side very rapidly?

maybe its a Polikarpov (wind that cart down Ruskie)



I reckon you might have a bit of Avgas running through your veins, T.G.W!
yeah, just like my 250 and 350LC's and FXR's hehehe... mixed with fully syn oil YUM YUM.

[Pussy]

yeah, just like my 250 and 350LC's and FXR's hehehe... mixed with fully syn oil YUM YUM.

That's one thing I miss about flying a turbine.... the smell of Avgas exhaust.
There are those that love the smell of jet fuel in the mornings... not this kid!

[nadroj]

No, that's a link to a Yak52 (apparently - I know nussink of de yak:shifty:)

I'm trying to ascertain whether or not it's my circling plane, which - if it visits again at 10.00 hours tomorrow, I'm going to try to get a photo for confirmation from our KB Pilots and Enthusiasts.

Well......? I'm waiting........


Most likely TYS if it's a red & white Yak52.

[Swoop]

P47N, LA9, Spit 21, F4U-5, Dora 9, TA152, Do335, Tempest Mk5, Fury, all of them would have the average Runstang pile-it crying into his cereal.

The only "best" thing about the 51 was sheer number of them in the sky.
Ahhh. The P-47 was superb in diving after a FW-190 since it was a bit on the portly side. James Goodman convinced the superiors that they could change over their whole squadron of 47's to 51's within 24hrs and not miss a mission. They managed to do just that and they were happy to see the back of the 47's.
Restorers in Australia have commented "why is there so much aircraft inside this aircraft?". They could take a bit of punishment though!


And don't worry about getting too crook as a passenger in an aerobatic plane, T.G.W..... properly executed aeros aren't too hard on the bod!

Snap rolls, spins and outside loops are a bit, but not a requirement to enjoy and experience an exciting aerobatic flight
I did a blat in the Airtourer some years back and was underwhelmed with what the pilot tried. "Guaranteed to make you puke or there is a tray of beer"... That central "sidestick" joystick is a bit stupid when in the right seat!

I have been given a flight in the Extra 300 aircraft which is at Ardmore! Can't wait.

However at Wairarapa at the beginning of this year the pilot gave a much better display..you could easily see why the Japanese troops referred to it as "whispering death",you could hardly hear it coming...Big strong fast plane
Whispering Death refers to the Bristol Beaufighter. There aren't any flying in NZ!

[pzkpfw]

Whistling death?

http://www.aviation-history.com/vought/f4u.html

[nudemetalz]

Whispering Death refers to the Bristol Beaufighter. There aren't any flying in NZ!
There aren't any flying full stop, unfortunately.

There are stories recorded of P-47 Thunderbolts flying through trees and coming out the other side still flying, albeit with bent props !!
They were that tough !!

[Swoop]

Whistling death?

Whispering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whispering_Death

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Beaufighter

[pzkpfw]

No kidding?

[nudemetalz]

So, there's one being (hopefully) restored to flying. That would be cool.

[Genestho]

Well......? I'm waiting........


Most likely TYS if it's a red & white Yak52.
It didn't have a chequered nose
:cry: Grizzle...waaaaaaaaaaah(mbulance).

My pet (possible - yak) didn't come back! Had my camera ready at the door too!

Mind you the only thing that's flown across today is a passenger airliner (which is not normal), she's been a very windy day!

I wont be here at 10.00am tomorrow, hopefully Wednesday, he'll be back!!!

[Boob Johnson]

Lets have a look at that shall we.

Hurricane - Produced in 4 versions, development ceased in 1942. Construction techniques were late '20s early '30s, skin was mixed fabric and aluminium. Retired from frontline duty in 1944, but had been effectively retired in '42 by placing them in secondary theatres like Africa, the Middle East, and South East Asia.

Spitfire - Produced in more than 20 versions, still in service in the late 50s in Hong Kong flying PR (Photo Recon) missions over China. Stressed aluminium skin, early fabric ailerons gave way to metal covered ones from the Mk 4 (Actually the development mules for the Griffon engine project. They have more in common with the Mk VII than teh V)

Neither was "better" than the other, they were simply different aircraft with very different roles, and the Hurricane fell victim to obsolescence earlier than the Spitfire due to construction techniques required to produce it (Chicks with air wrenches and rivet guns are not good at joinery and rigging) and the fact that Hawker replaced it with the Typhoon, rather than trying to develop an out of date dead end. The Typhoon suffered at high altitude because it used a development of the concept used for the Hurricane's wing and had a very thick chord wing (ratio of depth to width). This wing design and very powerful engine in the Napier Sabre (once the bugs were ironed out - H engines are always trouble) made it an excellent ordinance truck instead.

Hurricane and Spitfire? Apples and Cockroaches. It's like saying an RF900 is better than a BMW GS1200.
Probably should of been a little clearer I should, was specifically reffering to the Hurricane's turn around to rearm & fuel up being 3 times faster than the Spitfire, somewhere around 9 mins I believe, vital in the Battle of Britain.

But yes do agree it's apples & um...banana's. Also why I stand by my original statement bout the P-51 being the best around prop plane of WW2

(although I did genuinely believe it was the quickest prior to your info).

[marty]

I'm not really in the aviation scene (so I can't sort anything out ATM) , but if I win lotto I'll learn to fly and buy a Zero to fly people around in every August 29th. Deal?

good luck with that mate. ASAIK there's still only 2 left flying in the world, and no lotto win is going to pry one of them your way :) i watched one of them flying at Chino a few years ago - dogfighting with Cruise. T's P51 and a Hellcat. Quite a moment it was.

[pzkpfw]

Apparently you can "simulate" a Zero using a Harvard trainer (AT6 Texan).

Comes out faster.

http://www.nzwarbirds.org.nz/at6a.html

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mdl_photography/3567790476/

[Pussy]

There is a Zero for sale in the US at the moment, it has been re-engined with a P&W R-1830.... nice machine!

[Genestho]

Oh well Bugger It!

The Yak has not come back (yet) so I guess, it's a Legend in me own lunchbox for now! :bleh:

BUT I think the word is out!! Have had a few planes come circling over today.

One was a red one...what is it??? (I'm Joking!! :lol:)

[James Deuce]

But yes do agree it's apples & um...banana's. Also why I stand by my original statement bout the P-51 being the best around prop plane of WW2


Best at winning a pervasive propaganda war. It's a toss up between the Focke Wulf Ta152 and the Dornier Do 335 for "best propellor aircraft produced in the Second World War". The P51 had numbers and range on its side, but belonged to a previous generation of aircraft compared to those two.

Both the Dornier and Focke Wulf had top speeds around 475 mph at their optimum operating altitudes and the Ta152H had a service ceiling of 48,000ft. Both aircraft had cruising speeds nearly 60 mph faster than
contemporary Allied fighters and the Ta152 had more range on internal fuel than a P51D. The world's only surviving Do335 was captured April 2nd 1945 and flown from Munich to Cherbourg in France, arriving 45 minutes before its escorting Mustangs.

If you want to look at the most effective warplane in WWII it's a toss up between the C47 and the Iluyshin IL2. Effective millitary planners concentrate on delivering or denying logistics.

[James Deuce]

Ahhh. The P-47 was superb in diving after a FW-190 since it was a bit on the portly side. James Goodman convinced the superiors that they could change over their whole squadron of 47's to 51's within 24hrs and not miss a mission. They managed to do just that and they were happy to see the back of the 47's.


Read Robert Johnson or Francis Gabreski's Bios and you'll get a VERY different picture. As I said, it's not the aircraft it's the pile-it. Fundamental belief in their mount of choice was at the core of most successful pile-it's success. Read anything Corky Meyer has written and you'll quickly figure out that most WWII Ace's inviolate devotation to a particular aircraft was plain silly and sometimes ludicrous. Your description of a single aspect of a P47's construction is an often repeated simplistic analysis of an aircraft that was vastly more capable than the P51 in all the roles it was assigned EXCEPT long range escort and interdiction.

I have a friend in the US who flew in the MTO and ETO from 1942 to 1945 in P39Qs and P47D-25s and -40s and he never saw an enemy aircraft in the air anywhere near him, like 90% of Aliied pile-its. His biggest enemy was ack and "furniture". The aircraft he flew didn't matter to him so long as he could complete his mission profile.

[Boob Johnson]

Best at winning a pervasive propaganda war. It's a toss up between the Focke Wulf Ta152 and the Dornier Do 335 for "best propellor aircraft produced in the Second World War". The P51 had numbers and range on its side, but belonged to a previous generation of aircraft compared to those two.

Both the Dornier and Focke Wulf had top speeds around 475 mph at their optimum operating altitudes and the Ta152H had a service ceiling of 48,000ft. Both aircraft had cruising speeds nearly 60 mph faster than
contemporary Allied fighters and the Ta152 had more range on internal fuel than a P51D. The world's only surviving Do335 was captured April 2nd 1945 and flown from Munich to Cherbourg in France, arriving 45 minutes before its escorting Mustangs.

If you want to look at the most effective warplane in WWII it's a toss up between the C47 and the Iluyshin IL2. Effective millitary planners concentrate on delivering or denying logistics.
It all depends what you class as "best" really. How effective was the Do335? Wasn't it only 16 odd that saw active service? You could debate on lots of levels why one aircraft was better than the other, personally I think it's an overall package, not just it's techincal details on paper. My comment on the Hurricane was based it's turn around during the BOB, the Spitfire took 3 times as long to rearm & reload I believe which made an awful lot of difference to the winning of the battle.

[R6_kid]

Oh well Bugger It!

The Yak has not come back (yet) so I guess, it's a Legend in me own lunchbox for now! :bleh:

BUT I think the word is out!! Have had a few planes come circling over today.

One was a red one...what is it??? (I'm Joking!! :lol:)

Do you live in Tauranga?

[Swoop]

Do you live in Tauranga?

Refer: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129378247&postcount=25

[James Deuce]

It all depends what you class as "best" really. How effective was the Do335? Wasn't it only 16 odd that saw active service? You could debate on lots of levels why one aircraft was better than the other, personally I think it's an overall package, not just it's techincal details on paper. My comment on the Hurricane was based it's turn around during the BOB, the Spitfire took 3 times as long to rearm & reload I believe which made an awful lot of difference to the winning of the battle.

You can't have it both ways. Best propellor driven aircraft or most cost effective weapons platform. Which is it?

[Swoop]

Read Robert Johnson or Francis Gabreski's Bios and you'll get a VERY different picture. As I said, it's not the aircraft it's the pile-it.
I'll try and track those books down. Do you have the titles?
I have read a few on aviation over the years...
The pilot's skill is certainly the key, as most air forces realise.
Goodson's comparison between the Spitfire, P-47 and P-51, which he flew, was interesting. He preferred the Spit but knew that the war depended on fighters having the legs to take the fight to the enemy in their own backyard.

The Do335. I have a couple of photos from a visit to Munich some years back. What a stunning machine, with performance to match.

[James Deuce]

Robert Johnson's autobiography is called "Thunderbolt!".

Gabreski's is "Gabby: A Fighter Pilot's Life".

Both are probably out of print, but worth hunting down.

This is worth a morning tea.
http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_rsj.html

[Pixie]

lol James. Let's start with the Thunderbolt...........pffff. You don't see a TB flying faster than a Mustang or escorting deep into Germany AND back :nono:


Suppose you think the Spitfire is a better plane than the Hurricane too!

In my day we would fly an escort mission into Germany,Kill Hitler,cop ack ack in the back of the head.
And the wife would still expect you to take the rubbish out when you got back.
Tell the young of today and they won't believe you......

[Beemer]

We have a top dresser pilot who flies over our place regularly to dust the paddocks nearby, and if he sees me out on the deck with the camera he aims straight for the house and does a steep climb, then wiggles his wings as he passes! It's really awesome to watch.

But the best fly by was by a Hercules a few years ago. We live on a ridge and I was having breakfast when I heard this incredible rumble. I thought it was a truck so stood up to look out the window just in time to see a Hercules skim along the gully level with our house. That would have been one of the most exciting moments - I love those planes!:niceone:

[Genestho]

We have a top dresser pilot who flies over our place regularly to dust the paddocks nearby, and if he sees me out on the deck with the camera he aims straight for the house and does a steep climb, then wiggles his wings as he passes! It's really awesome to watch.

But the best fly by was by a Hercules a few years ago. We live on a ridge and I was having breakfast when I heard this incredible rumble. I thought it was a truck so stood up to look out the window just in time to see a Hercules skim along the gully level with our house. That would have been one of the most exciting moments - I love those planes!:niceone:


That Hercules would've been awesome to see Beemer!!!
Ah I love sunny days, I've come to the conclusion that these Pilots like being noticed!! Yesterday the skies were really busy, one plane was out stunting for a couple of hours!! Weeeeeeee!!

Will have to leave my camera at the door, there's been another one I haven't seen before, fly over today!! (not circling)

[Swoop]

I thought it was a truck so stood up to look out the window just in time to see a Hercules skim along the gully level with our house.
Low level aircraft are entertaining. When d'Auckland had the pesky "painted apple moth" plague, the best bits were the free airshows!
Seeing the F-27 Friendship blatting along outside my window was very impressive indeed!

[Bass]

Best at winning a pervasive propaganda war. It's a toss up between the Focke Wulf Ta152 and the Dornier Do 335 for "best propellor aircraft produced in the Second World War".

According to Wikipedia, the Ta 152 was never sorted out properly and so it's potential was never realised.

I took several photos of the Do 335 last month and unfortunately they are all crap because I only had a small camera and the light levels are low in the National Aeronautics and Space Museum. It's an awesome display though.

[Bass]

Give some photos a try

1. Do335, Arado & FW190
2. Concorde etc
3. Big Bang
4. SR71 go dept

mmmmm.... pretty crap. Sorry about the quality

[SPman]

Well, it's not a Tbolt, or a Do335, but Jim Smiths Seafire FR47 would come under the same heading as next generation piston.

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and as he flies a Mustang and an F4U5 (and a P40 and a T33, among many others, from his private strip in Montana - if we could ask him, maybe he could say which was better?
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[Genestho]

Well......? I'm waiting........


Most likely TYS if it's a red & white Yak52.

OMG!

I just opened up my local rag.
There's an article advertising : Tauranga City Air Show.
Title: Piston Engines to jet fighters.

And guess what the photo is! THE YAK! Red stars on White wings!

It does have a chequered nose (Doh), looks like these photos, but slightly different paint job, chequers around the tail, and more red round the nose and the chequers!!! And the number 96 is painted down the side. No wonder he was showing off!!! It's a beauty!

It's my YAK!!!!
Can't find a link to it online, but is in The Weekend Sun!

[TOTO]

wasnt that guy was it ?

<img src="http://members.fortunecity.com/jpayne/bats.jpg"></img>

[Genestho]

wasnt that guy was it ?

<img src="http://members.fortunecity.com/jpayne/bats.jpg"></img>
Dunno mate, the article was promoting the Air show but didn't refer to the Yak what so-ever, apart from the photo!

Oh and Pussy has teed up a ride in a p51 for me, out of Ardmore, when ever I'm ready (bladder releases :lol:) so, I'm working out a date where I can get away and do it, that doesn't conflict with my diary! Maybe November!

Apparently the Pilot has promised not to be too mean, and value for $. I will get photo's! If I can stand up amongst circling brain, vomit and full nappies!! :laugh:

[Swoop]

Oh and Pussy has teed up a ride in a p51 for me, out of Ardmore,
You lucky, lucky bastard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BMWST?]

Dornier Do 335 (http://images.google.co.nz/imgres?imgurl=http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/types/germany/dornier/do_335/do335-112.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/types/germany/dornier/do_335/do335.htm&usg=__p7nxtthviqAu_9gArYBHqoj2JxM=&h=307&w=634&sz=141&hl=en&start=1&sig2=8K6vqrmy6mSeFB8MSzkZ_Q&tbnid=XoJKscBSty5iTM:&tbnh=66&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddo335%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dof f%26sa%3DG&ei=Gc2hSsWBDJDktAPw0Y3qCw)

As the Second World War in Europe drew to a close, a powerful new twin-engined fighter was preparing to enter service with the Luftwaffe. The unique configuration of this aircraft conferred on it a phenomenal performance, which completely eclipsed all of its contemporaries; whilst its potential for devastating the massive Allied bomber streams that almost daily pounded the Reich was rivalled only by the Me 262 jet. This amazing machine was the piston-engined Dornier Do 335.
Aircraft designers are constantly seeking to maximise engine power and minimise drag. The increased power resulting from the adoption of a twin-engined layout, is normally partially offset by the increased drag and reduced manoeuvrability of an orthodox wing-mounted arrangement. An alternative arrangement, with the two engines mounted fore-and-aft in tandem is known as centre-line thrust. With the power from both engines being delivered along the aircraft centre-line, the obvious benefits of this layout include reduced frontal area, an aerodynamically clean wing and the elimination of the asymmetry problems associated with engine failure.
The Dornier Do 335 was a bold attempt to embody the centre-line thrust concept in a practical and efficient airframe. Its unique layout featured a conventional nose mounted engine and tractor airscrew, together with a second engine located in the rear fuselage, driving a pusher propeller situated aft of the tail unit.

[Genestho]

You lucky, lucky bastard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Teeeheeee, Eye Nose!!!! I'm not gonna thank John till I've done it, I may need to share abuse before thanking :laugh:

[Pussy]

You'll be saying "Thanks, Pussy, that was amazing", not "Yeah THANKS, Pussy, you (big lady's thing)". :)

[terbang]

Love the aerobatics and have been doing a bit lately teaching Georgie (my daughter). It teaches low speed handling, unusual attitudes and sensations and makes a better pilot in my view. At 18, all georgie lives for now (and spends her last dollar on) is Aero's and has become quite a proficient at it. She should really be concentrating on the PPL thing but its nice to see her smelling the roses on the way through too.
P51, Spitfire, Hurricane, I don't know a lot about them except I'd love to get my hands onto one (as all pilots would). I've had a few poles of Harvards doing aerobatics, I certainly enjoyed that.

[SPman]

Love the aerobatics and have been doing a bit lately teaching Georgie (my daughter). It teaches low speed handling, unusual attitudes and sensations and makes a better pilot in my view....Good on ya.
There is an interesting new series of flight instruction manuals, put out by Noel Kruse, CFI of the Sydney Aerobatic School. He got his license in 1961, but, as he says, didn't actually consider he had learnt to "fly", until 6 yrs later...(Free download here - http://flybetter.com.au/). Part of his technique is getting the students enthused in flying - he introduces them to Aerobatics from flight no.1

I have taken teenagers flying who have never been in an aeroplane before and,within 15 minutes, had them looping and rolling the aeroplane themselves,whilst I recorded them doing it with their own video camera. Yet this amazing adaptability seems to be ‘beaten’ out of them when they take ‘formal’ flying lessons at a ‘standard’ flying school and replaced by a confused ‘hotch potch’ of do’s and don’ts based upon some obscure theories and their flying instructors own inhibitions.

I was once told that the best way destroy a professional golfer’s ‘T’ shot is to ask him how he holds his golf club. The resulting ‘analysis paralysis’ puts him ‘off’ for the rest of the game. Modern flying schools are very good at putting student aviators ‘off’ their ‘game’ with analysis paralysis.
Many young people who have caught the flying ‘bug’ do not have much
schooling in physics or mathematics, so to bamboozle them with confusing
descriptions of obscure theories does not lead to understanding. Unfortunately many junior flying instructors use their incomplete knowledge of these theories to establish a sort of psychological superiority over their students, and many testing officers do the same. So not only has the poor student to learn and develop new motor skills, but has to do it without really understanding why the aeroplane flies the way it does.It's a bit like taking new riders out on small dirt bikes and letting them get to grips with how bikes react and have fun at the same time. Learn how to actually "ride", before putting them through the stresses of formal requirements.
I reckon, it's the way to do it!

[Swoop]

You'll be saying "Thanks, Pussy, that was amazing"
No I wont. I'll be saying "where the fuck is my fun?" Cash is sitting ready and waiting to be burnt up on "fun"!!

[Genestho]

No I wont. I'll be saying "where the fuck is my fun?" Cash is sitting ready and waiting to be burnt up on "fun"!!
OI Swoop! (nudge) are you muscling in on my fun? Teehee!
John - I'll only call you a ladies thingy, if I vomit on myself!

[Pussy]

John - I'll only call you a ladies thingy, if I vomit on myself!

You won't.... you'll LOVE it!
I'm just going to be as jealous as buggery because I haven't been for a flight in a P-51

[Genestho]

You won't.... you'll LOVE it!
I'm just going to be as jealous as buggery because I haven't been for a flight in a P-51
Hehe I KNOW, someone told me I'm nuckin Futs!! LOL! I can't wait. I'll have to book in November!!

[Swoop]

OI Swoop! (nudge) are you muscling in on my fun? Teehee!
Most certainly not! You will have a great time.

I'm just forming an orderly queue.:cool:

[marty]

Good on ya.
There is an interesting new series of flight instruction manuals, put out by Noel Kruse, CFI of the Sydney Aerobatic School. He got his license in 1961, but, as he says, didn't actually consider he had learnt to "fly", until 6 yrs later...(Free download here - http://flybetter.com.au/). Part of his technique is getting the students enthused in flying - he introduces them to Aerobatics from flight no.1
It's a bit like taking new riders out on small dirt bikes and letting them get to grips with how bikes react and have fun at the same time. Learn how to actually "ride", before putting them through the stresses of formal requirements.
I reckon, it's the way to do it!

I've done some flying with Noel. He's got a Pitts S2-S single seater, that he can really throw around. He does a pretty good job of low level aeros in an Alpha too! If you ever want to do an aeros flight with him, Organise it for Friday or Sunday afternoons at the Waikato Aero Club, just before the bar opens.

He has flown everything from fast jets to Caribous.