Cheeky salesman

[Densial]

ok, so a week ago I was over at cyclespot trying on a bike. I quite like it and after thinking for the week I thought I would be a bit cheaky and make a low ball over, see what happened.

So I send the nice salesman who's card I had an email saying I tried this particular bike on for size and would be interested in talking turkey. He sent back and email and said sure, give him a call. I did and told him I wanted a bike and liked this one and wanted a good deal, it was new after all!

He asked me what I wanted to pay, I told him, and he said that actually he didn't have that bike anymore, but did I want this other one instead!

how's THAT for cheaky, I've been telling my work mates, cheaky isn't really the word they used but you get the drift. Anyone else have any problems with these dudes?

[vifferman]

Anyone else have any problems with these dudes?
Of course not! They're great guys, salt of the earth and all that.
The fact I haven't been back to Cyclespot in the (nearly) 5 years since I bought my VFR is entirely coincidental, and due to something else entirely. :whistle:

[Mully]

That's his job - to sell you a bike. His bosses don't care which bike in particular.

If you'd e-mailed him and he'd come straight back to you saying "Nah, it's gone" he would have missed out on the chance to sell you something else. You wouldn't be the first (or the last) to have bought a different bike cos the salesman did his job.

If he happens to be a bit cheeky to get the opportunity to sell you something, it's your call (as the one holding the cash) to continue to deal with him or take offence and walk away.

And you're bound to get half-a-dozen people on here saying "No, they're great" and another half-dozen saying "Yeah, they're shit". It's the nature of the beast. One person's "leaving me alone to have a look" is another person's "ignored me when I wanted to talk to someone"

[Mystic13]

I've never tried them for anything other than parts and at parts/tyres they'd be the most useless shop I've ever spoken with.

"Hi, I'm after some tyres for my road bike 150/70/17 rear and 110/70/17 front's for a track day do you have B45's."

CS - "Hang on I have a tyre chart for different bikes I'll check that. What sort of bike is it?"

"An 88 Honda Bros 650"

CS - Lots of paper shuffling "What sort of bike is that?"

"It's a road bike, V-twin. I want to run it on the road and track"

CS - Long pause and lots of paper shuffling "I recommend the TW...(Sorry I can't remember the number for the story but he gave one)"

"Aren't those dual purpose tyres?" As I thought the TW meant trail wings.

CS - "yeah they are"

"Mate, they'd be useless on the track and on a road bike"

CS - "Oh I thought you meant like an off-road track through the bush"

The conversation continues for a couple more random suggestions before I bail.

Either the guy has a lucky dip box their where he pulls the package out and unwraps it to expose the tyre recommendation or he has no %$#@#ing clue.

I pity a noob ringing the guy. Personally I think they should either;
a/ not advertise so that people don't ring them and be put off or
b/ change the parts person.
c/ get a more comprehensive chart.

The previous experience was just as bad. I can only think the parts department would be useful for light entertainment with a few friends over. Put them on speaker and then ring them.

[Robert Taylor]

ok, so a week ago I was over at cyclespot trying on a bike. I quite like it and after thinking for the week I thought I would be a bit cheaky and make a low ball over, see what happened.

So I send the nice salesman who's card I had an email saying I tried this particular bike on for size and would be interested in talking turkey. He sent back and email and said sure, give him a call. I did and told him I wanted a bike and liked this one and wanted a good deal, it was new after all!

He asked me what I wanted to pay, I told him, and he said that actually he didn't have that bike anymore, but did I want this other one instead!

how's THAT for cheaky, I've been telling my work mates, cheaky isn't really the word they used but you get the drift. Anyone else have any problems with these dudes?

First up best dressed bought that bike first. Cannot blame them for that, thats business.

[sinfull]

I thought I would be a bit cheaky and make a low ball over, see what happened. ?


Can't see anything wrong with the Sales mans approach !
Me i would have been into him, saying ok so what time should i come to test ride this bike and any others that might be on the floor as well ?

[Densial]

actually, it's more about him asking me what I would be willing to offer for the bike THEN telling me he didn't actually have it any more. don't get me wrong, these guys have to make a living too and I am more than happy to help with that, I need these guys to service my bike, sell me parts and (eventually) take it back and sell me a new one, but when I ask someone for a deal and they lead me on with "ok so what are you looking to pay" and THEN say he doesn't have it any more, that's when it sounds dodge to me. If he had said straight up front "sorry we've sold that one, give me a call and I will do you a good deal on a later model" then I would have given him a call, but he didn't. Pretty simple. I got plenty of cash to spend and am gagging for a new bike, explain to me how miss-representing stock levelsn to me on the phone helps his cause.

[Headbanger]

Just remember that salesmen want your money,thats it, they will try and get it anyway they can (depending on morals/greed) If you happen to get the best bike for you at a good price then its either luck or you done your homework.

Never listen to their bullshit, and make up your mind what you want and what your prepared to pay before you talk to them. And get your stare down pat and use it on them when they try and bullshit you. If It gets to much I simply dismiss the salesman and talk to someone else.

As for getting lied to, He already fucking lied to you. You still want to deal with him? Why,to be fed more lies?

Sure, I take offence easy, I don't like the taste of bullshit.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Just remember that salesmen want your money,thats it, they will try and get it anyway they can (depending on morals/greed) If you happen to get the best bike for you at a good price then its either luck or you done your homework.

Never listen to their bullshit, and make up your mind what you want and what your prepared to pay before you talk to them. And get your stare down pat and use it on them when they try and bullshit you. If It gets to much I simply dismiss the salesman and talk to someone else.

As for getting lied to, He already fucking lied to you. You still want to deal with him? Why,to be fed more lies?

Sure, I take offence easy, I don't like the taste of bullshit.

Jesus mate...if I lied and talked utter shit I'd lose my job. FACT.

[Headbanger]

And just because I rarely shut the hell up.

Ive worked in retail, Had my own company in fact, I never once lied to anybody to sell anything ,never saw the need, Not that kind of person, and It probably would have kept me awake at night if I did.

Bull shiters should me made to feast on their own shit.

[Headbanger]

Jesus mate...if I lied and talked utter shit I'd lose my job. FACT.

Sorry, Didn't mean you or any of the other honest sales people out there. of which most are Im sure.

My bad for a scatter-shot rant.Bitter, Jaded, I am.

Non-bullshitting salespeople are champions.:Punk:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Sorry, Didn't mean you or any of the other honest sales people out there. of which most are Im sure.

My bad for a scatter-shot rant.

Non-bullshitting salespeople are champions.:Punk:

Thing is with the bike industry...is we're dealing with people that love motorcycles...just like I (we in the industry) do. In my 20+ years in the industry...I've only ever come across a few shit talkers...and they don't last long.

[325rocket]

different shop but ...

about a year ago
i had a test ride on a bike on thursday / liked it / agreed to a price / agreed to a trade in price for my bike. had to go on holiday on friday and agreed to complete the sale on monday. *the point to note here is that the price we agreed on was a pretty sharp price, not crazy cheap but pretty good.
monday rolls around and i head in to finish the deal only to be told the trade in would be less and the bike would cost more.
as i left i noticed a sold sticker on the bike but i kept walking. found out later they did a deal over the weekend that didnt require a trade and they got a better price.

is that just business???

[Mully]

actually, it's more about him asking me what I would be willing to offer for the bike THEN telling me he didn't actually have it any more.

OK, I see your point here.

This is "Vehicle Sales 101" - Find out how much they have to spend and spend it for them.

If you e-mailed and said "I wanna pay $8K - he then knows you have $8K to spend on something.

I've had a cage salesman try to do the same to me. Find out how much you can afford (either outright or weekly) and sell a car to match that figure.

IMO, you shoulda gone in looking for a deal at the sticker price or just below.
Dunno what the bike was worth, but maybe say:
"I want X dollars to spend in your parts/accessories/clothing department, plus take those tyres off and replace with XYZ tyres."

[Headbanger]

well, I can do a quick trip around a half dozen local shops and I can get bullshit on varying levels from all of them.

As an example the GSX I looked at a couple of weeks ago is simply an old bike past its best days and not worth a lot of money, It isn't as I was told a great bargain, as good as modern bike, or heaven forbid an investment as its almost reached classic status. You think they took any noticed as I shook my head and walked out?

What I like best though is phantom bikes.

Hi, Im after a CR 450 do you have anything along those lines?

No, Not at the moment but I'm in the process of trading one in........It will be on the shop floor in a week, but just for you we can make a deal and pass it right along. Give me your number and I'll sort it.

Gives number.


silence.




Ring back 2 weeks later.

Hey, I'm enquiring about that CR450 you were taking in as a trade, You were going to get back to me?

Cr 450?, We dont have any of those mate how about a ******

[Densial]

Mully: yup see your point, I'm pretty new to bike buying, I'm just so fired up about it (buying a new bike, and riding) that I don't really want to be mucked around, y'know.

I spent the last 6 months researching what I want, got approval from the CFO :) got the money in the bank right now, checking TM and MCT every single day, I have 3 bike search results on TM hitting my email every day, going to bike shops most weekends and even some lunch times. I know there are tire kickers out there but I figure you never know, as a salesman why would you risk pissing someone off? I can get a new bike ANYWHERE, I certainly don't need to go to shop X, hell I could probably get one shipped from Tauranga for free!

I don't begrudge him making his commiss (or what ever), it just sounded dodge to me, not quite trust worthy, y'know.

anyways I got everything from "it's his job" to "bloody leeches" in this thread, I can see there's a lot of passion out there, good to know :)

[Bend-it]

Jesus mate...if I lied and talked utter shit I'd lose my job. FACT.

Which is why you guys get my custom! :2thumbsup:

[Crasherfromwayback]

I can get a new bike ANYWHERE, I certainly don't need to go to shop X, hell I could probably get one shipped from Tauranga for free!


Hell...I'll fly you down here for free to buy it...or deliver it foc!

Pete

[Marmoot]

I thought I would be a bit cheaky

how's THAT for cheaky

Sounds like cheeky illiterate people?


Kind Regards,
Cheeky Spelling Nazi
0800 L2Spell

[diddie17]

I guess he's just doing his job the best way he knows how, but I do think it's a bit cheeky asking how much and then telling you he didn't have the bike. As previously said though, approaches vary, and what pisses you off others will just smile and accept.

I had a situation recently where having bought my bike new and put a few K's on it, I was looking at trading and buying the latest model. It was something I'd been thinking about for a while and on that basis had enquired (making it clear that I wasn't quite ready) what the trade value was on my bike to help me with the thinking (and wife justification process).

When it got to the point I was ready, I went back in and got an almost insulting offer, being a good chunk less that I'd been given a few months earlier. When I questioned it I was told the market had changed, which I guess is fair enough to a level, although it was a huge difference.

I ended up saying no thanks, the bike owes me more than that, I'll just run it on for a while thanks. At this point they then started coming back to me saying, maybe we can do something, how much were you looking for as a difference. The reality though is that the damage has been done for me and my confidence in the shop has been shaken. This just did not feel like how you should treat someone looking to buy their third consecutive and second new bike from them. Not to mention all of the servicing etc. in between.

I never went back to them after they asked me what I wanted to pay, and I haven't made up my mind what to do, but I've certainly gone from being loyal to the shop to being open to look at other options now.

[Ixion]

ok, so a week ago I was over at cyclespot trying on a bike. I quite like it and after thinking for the week I thought I would be a bit cheaky and make a low ball over, see what happened.

So I send the nice salesman who's card I had an email saying I tried this particular bike on for size and would be interested in talking turkey. He sent back and email and said sure, give him a call. I did and told him I wanted a bike and liked this one and wanted a good deal, it was new after all!

He asked me what I wanted to pay, I told him, and he said that actually he didn't have that bike anymore, but did I want this other one instead!

how's THAT for cheaky, I've been telling my work mates, cheaky isn't really the word they used but you get the drift. Anyone else have any problems with these dudes?


I'm not clear where the problem is here. You wanted a particular bike, but you waited too long and someone else bought it. That's life, not the salesdude's fault. You could hardly expect to refuse to sell it to a definite buyer because someone else was "interested" in it.

But, being a good salesman, he didn't want to say "sucks to be you, piss off". So he tried to see if he could set up an alternative deal for you. To do that he needs to know what your budget is - because until he knows that he'll likely either offer you a deal on a bike that you just can't afford, or offer you something cheap that you don't want.

That's his job. He couldn't sell you the bike you wanted so he tried to find another way to make you happy. that's not really a bad thing to do.

[Densial]

This is the third time I have typed this, I so have laptop quick keys

Ixion: It's not about him selling it I totally get that, it's not about him wanting to put me into another bike (actually a later model of what I was looking at) because I totally get that too, it's more me and him talking numbers and at the same time him having no intention of selling me the bike I was asking about. He knew when I emailed it was no longer for sale, he knew when I rang is was no longer for sale, but he still asked me what i wanted to pay for it. At that point I am thinking "I might be buying a bike, kewl" and at the same time he's thinking "I am not going to sell this bike to this buyer".

As for him finding my budget, I told him the bike I was after and that I had money in the bank, he had to assume I had at the very least 80-90% of that (if not more) if I wanted to talk turkey, there was really no need to let me think I was negotiating for a bike he didn't have.

Unless he thinks there is, which is fine, it's just my opinion really.

[MarkH]

different shop but ...

about a year ago
i had a test ride on a bike on thursday / liked it / agreed to a price / agreed to a trade in price for my bike. had to go on holiday on friday and agreed to complete the sale on monday. *the point to note here is that the price we agreed on was a pretty sharp price, not crazy cheap but pretty good.
monday rolls around and i head in to finish the deal only to be told the trade in would be less and the bike would cost more.
as i left i noticed a sold sticker on the bike but i kept walking. found out later they did a deal over the weekend that didnt require a trade and they got a better price.

is that just business???

I suppose it is just business - they certainly achieved the sale they wanted. I would think that in the long term they would make more money from gaining customers rather than gaining sales (one sale = how much profit, one customer buying a new bike every few years = how much profit).

But you have to accept some responsibility too - you should have handed over $500 or something and agreed to be back monday with your trade-in and the rest of the money. Once you pay the deposit you have a deal, they can't just back out of it.

[Robert Taylor]

How about you give the salesman right of reply, he might not even know that he is being tried by media and their are two sides to every story.

[Mully]

How about you give the salesman right of reply, he might not even know that he is being tried by media and their are two sides to every story.

What!!

This is KB, Mister.

How dare you suggest something so radical.

*Looks around for pitchfork and torch*

[Densial]

I totally think up to half the people on this thread haven't read what I have written ;)

[ynot slow]

Any retail owner doesn't have to sell to anyone,not a good practice mind you.
You can be a bullshit artist in retail but you'll be found out.

The amount of times I was told on a Saturday morning "can you hold it for me",yes would be reply along with "we require a deposit fully refundable of $500"if they said no thanks,then I'd offer with "well if it's still here Monday can I ring you,or if by chance another customer wishes to buy it can I phone you"?Had a couple of sales completed either with previous customer being phoned and coming into buy,or them saying we can wait,usually with thanks for contacting us.
Sometimes though you get 2 sales people selling one item almost at once,we had that one weekend sold same identical bed,same size within 3 minutes,luckily we had 2 in stock,and then had an order on the Monday from people not proceeding the Saturday abusing the manager because they didn't buy,they should've been given priority over paying customers,manager who had dealt with them replied we gave you option of paying deposit sorry.

The thing is you admit you were cheeky with offer(we all are),but sales guy should have said we have another offer on it,how about this model.

[Densial]

ynot slow: exactly my point, not that I was that cheeky, I only asked for a 20% discount.

Or is that reeeally cheeky. :blink:

[Sparky Bills]

Sounds like a whole lot of crying over nothing to me....:innocent:

[RC1]

just spend your money at the next dealer along from them :2guns:

[Pussy]

blah blah blah etc


I can vouch for this bastard. He can't make coffee for shit, but is VERY honest to deal with, and is VERY helpful.
Bought a bike from WMCC a few years ago, and had a pre-arranged delivery time (they brought the bike from WG to NP foc, in the back of their van)
Cheeky pricks turned up half an hour early, too

[Crasherfromwayback]

I can vouch for this bastard. He can't make coffee for shit, but is VERY honest to deal with, and is VERY helpful.
Bought a bike from WMCC a few years ago, and had a pre-arranged delivery time (they brought the bike from WG to NP foc, in the back of their van)
Cheeky pricks turned up half an hour early, too

Shucks fanks mate! BUT...my coffee is the bizz! :innocent:

[Pussy]

BUT...my coffee is the bizz! :innocent:

Shit is spelt: S H I T.... NOT: B I Z Z

Unless you've given me the mug of water you keep the teaspoons in, by mistake of course..... :D

[Crasherfromwayback]

Shit is spelt: S H I T.... NOT: B I Z Z

Unless you've given me the mug of water you keep the teaspoons in, by mistake of course..... :D

Nope...I just stired yours with the toilet brush.

[Pussy]

Nope...I just stired yours with the toilet brush.
Well, just one lump of that candy next time, not two.
Actually, I'll bring my bloody Thermos with me......

[Maha]

just spend your money at the next dealer along from them :2guns:

Sometimes thats an option....
Sales People dont ever talk money until they know what you have to spend or, until they know how much you are willing to let go of.


Me: How much for a trade in?
SP: What are looking for?
Me: As much as I can get to be honest, so how much can you offer?
SP: What bike do you want to trade into?
Me: That nice black one.
SP: We could probably give $7K for a trade
Me: Na I want at least $9K
SP: Best you sell it privately and come back and see us.

[ManDownUnder]

ok, so a week ago I was over at cyclespot trying on a bike. I quite like it and after thinking for the week I thought I would be a bit cheaky and make a low ball over, see what happened.

So I send the nice salesman who's card I had an email saying I tried this particular bike on for size and would be interested in talking turkey. He sent back and email and said sure, give him a call. I did and told him I wanted a bike and liked this one and wanted a good deal, it was new after all!

He asked me what I wanted to pay, I told him, and he said that actually he didn't have that bike anymore, but did I want this other one instead!

The bastard... he knew you wanted a bike, knew what type you were after, established your budget and tried to provide a solution???


how's THAT for cheaky, I've been telling my work mates, cheaky isn't really the word they used but you get the drift. Anyone else have any problems with these dudes?

Cheeky... No!
Problematic? No!
Taking some initiative... Yes
Offering a possible alternative to meet your needs and limitation? Yes
Doing his job? Yes
Outsmarting you? Yes

Build a bridge, or does the last point still hurt a little?

[Robert Taylor]

ynot slow: exactly my point, not that I was that cheeky, I only asked for a 20% discount.

Or is that reeeally cheeky. :blink:

You are either joking or you seriously believe they have margin in the bike that exceeds 20%, which I very seriously would doubt.

[Boob Johnson]

actually, it's more about him asking me what I would be willing to offer for the bike THEN telling me he didn't actually have it any more. don't get me wrong, these guys have to make a living too and I am more than happy to help with that, I need these guys to service my bike, sell me parts and (eventually) take it back and sell me a new one, but when I ask someone for a deal and they lead me on with "ok so what are you looking to pay" and THEN say he doesn't have it any more, that's when it sounds dodge to me. If he had said straight up front "sorry we've sold that one, give me a call and I will do you a good deal on a later model" then I would have given him a call, but he didn't. Pretty simple. I got plenty of cash to spend and am gagging for a new bike, explain to me how miss-representing stock levelsn to me on the phone helps his cause.
I see what you are saying, sounds like the salesman was looking to "gazump" the deal, tisk tisk.

[MarkH]

You are either joking or you seriously believe they have margin in the bike that exceeds 20%, which I very seriously would doubt.

I see nothing wrong with a buyer offering to buy a bike for 20% under the listed price, just as I see nothing wrong with the seller saying 'no' and then giving a counter offer. It's just good ol' haggling. When I bought mine it was listed on Trademe at a bargain price, so I rang and asked if they would take less, when they said they wouldn't go below the price listed I was clicking on 'buy now' before the conversation was over. I knew the price was too good to pass up even before I asked for a better price.

[ready4whatever]

when i ordered my new bike i said i want a jacket thrown in with it. no problem

[Dave-]

personally when im selling anything I cant stand it when people EXPECT some sort of deal, so for you to ask him for a good deal because "it was new afterall!" is wankish at best.

do you know the salesman beyond the breif conversation you've had with him? do you expect to maintain your friendship beyond the sale? shout him a beer when he's down? lend him your tools or the trailer? do you even know his name or is he just some salesman that you think you've got all worked out?

the idea of being a good salesman is to sell the product at it's value, not less, so if you right off the bat ask him for a deal you're pretty much saying "im not going to pay you for your knowledge of the bike, your recommendation as a good bike for me, infact I'm going to charge you for it" it's counter productive for the salesman agree and continue, if a bike is advertised at $15,000 then it's worth $15,000 if the salesman does his job, and you will be willing to pay all $15,000 too.

it's even worse when some cunt expects you to sell them the product at cost, what a fucking insult, if im not going to get paid for this sale then im not going to bother selling to you, the next customer might be more willing to recognise skill and be willing to pay for it.

do you think we just know this stuff? that we're born with this knowledge of finding you the best product? and it is the best product for you because like a motorcyclist takes pride in his riding, a salesman takes pride in his customer service.

it's made even worse when working in a place that doesnt pay a comission and therefore doesnt give discounts, but the ignorent fucking customer doesnt realise that because the salesman is not paid a comission the advice he's giving isn't just to get a sale it's genuine advice on the product, they've asked fielding questions and based upon what you've told them this is the product for you.

friends and family on the other hand I'll do a deal for (if work place allows) it's one of the perks of knowing me or being a family member of me, if you're none of the above think twice before insulting my integrity.

[Headbanger]

If you get insulted by a low ball offer then your either in the wrong game, or not in the game at all. People can offer any price they pull out of their backsides, what your cost is has nothing to do with them looking to spend as little as possible. Just like a company can ask any price they can think of, People may not buy it but I doubt they are going to take it personally.

Its pretty simple stuff.

[Headbanger]

, if you're none of the above think twice before insulting my integrity.

I'd love to insult your integrity you twat.

I'd also love to see you tell your customers they are cunts ( how does calling your bread and butter a pack of cunts fit it with your integrity) to their faces.....tough guy.

[YellowDog]

I'm not sure I really understand the gripe.

I suspect that CP would have sold you the bike you wanted at a reasonable price.

Your 'low ball' told the salesman that you wern't serious (even though you were), so he told you it was sold (it may or may not have been).

Asking you how much you want to offer for it was a bit daft "ten bucks mate" is not conducive to closing a deal.

If you'd agree a deal, put it in writing of it's not a deal. If you get a great deal, go get the cash and take it away as someone, or else someone might grab it before you.

I don't balme the saleman or business owner. Why should they wait for a one day maybe? Pay full price or accept the tribulations of dealing for a bargain. It's not easy being in business.
(just my thoughts, you don't have to agree with me)

[Robert Taylor]

The point is that every business deserves to make fair and reasonable profit and many customers make a game of beating dealers down in price. Its little wonder that so many dealers go to the wall when the margins on bikes are almost always abysmal ( FACT ) and there are too many dealers. That further exacerbates the dutch auction mentality that is so rife in this country.
So, what does everyone think is a REASONABLE percentage margin to make on a bike so that the dealer can live to open his doors another day?

[Headbanger]

The point is that every business deserves to make fair and reasonable profit

Actually no, The law of the jungle states that the strong (or the cunning will survive). There has never been a provision for everyone to get an equal slab of the pie no matter how they operate.

Aside from that, Only the market can dictate your cut. And you sure as hell don't have accept any offer you don't want to.

And try to stop crying about the abysmal profits on bikes, There is little profit in most endeavours, bike shops aren't special cases.

[YellowDog]

personally when im selling anything I cant stand it when people EXPECT some sort of deal, so for you to ask him for a good deal because "it was new afterall!" is wankish at best.

do you know the salesman beyond the breif conversation you've had with him? do you expect to maintain your friendship beyond the sale? shout him a beer when he's down? lend him your tools or the trailer? do you even know his name or is he just some salesman that you think you've got all worked out?

the idea of being a good salesman is to sell the product at it's value, not less, so if you right off the bat ask him for a deal you're pretty much saying "im not going to pay you for your knowledge of the bike, your recommendation as a good bike for me, infact I'm going to charge you for it" it's counter productive for the salesman agree and continue, if a bike is advertised at $15,000 then it's worth $15,000 if the salesman does his job, and you will be willing to pay all $15,000 too.

it's even worse when some cunt expects you to sell them the product at cost, what a fucking insult, if im not going to get paid for this sale then im not going to bother selling to you, the next customer might be more willing to recognise skill and be willing to pay for it.

do you think we just know this stuff? that we're born with this knowledge of finding you the best product? and it is the best product for you because like a motorcyclist takes pride in his riding, a salesman takes pride in his customer service.

it's made even worse when working in a place that doesnt pay a comission and therefore doesnt give discounts, but the ignorent fucking customer doesnt realise that because the salesman is not paid a comission the advice he's giving isn't just to get a sale it's genuine advice on the product, they've asked fielding questions and based upon what you've told them this is the product for you.

friends and family on the other hand I'll do a deal for (if work place allows) it's one of the perks of knowing me or being a family member of me, if you're none of the above think twice before insulting my integrity.
Dave, first of all, I would value your knowledge and experience. But I wouldn't respect or apprecaite you telling me what te right bike is for me.

Why do you think you would be able to advise me? Your interpretation of my answers to your skillfully put questions is not going to be enough; unless I am a complete n00b, then I will already know the bike I want.

I would prefer to buy from you than sourcing one on line or improting one myself, however not at any price.

Somewhere between the 15% discount that I would love to have and the 2.5% discount that you are willing to give, there is some common ground.

The day you start turning away people wanting to keep you in a job................

[Dave-]

I'd love to insult your integrity you twat.

I'd also love to see you tell your customers they are cunts ( how does calling your bread and butter a pack of cunts fit it with your integrity) to their faces.....tough guy.

lol so he calls me a twat, frees me up to call him a cunt then i guess.

there wont be any bread and butter if i sold everything at cost you cunt.

it's the salesmans job to find say 3 or 4 bikes he has that he thinks based upon his interpretations of your answers would be good for you, this is where the skill comes in, there's more to selling than just answers, obviously im going to be cautious about selling a super bike to a geriatric, although the skill comes in recognising whether he can operate one (because you never know, he might be)

[Headbanger]

lol so he calls me a twat, frees me up to call him a cunt then i guess.

there wont be any bread and butter if i sold everything at cost you cunt.

Thats cool Mr Integrity, I have read your dribble and dismissed it,Your shit is nothing to me, Mouth off all you like.

I guess your level of intelligence is its own reward.

[Dave-]

Thats cool Mr Integrity, I have read your dribble and dismissed it,Your shit is nothing to me, Mouth off all you like.

I guess your level of intelligence is its own reward.

haha the hypocrisy is brilliant.

this thread was well worth posting a rant in.

[Robert Taylor]

Actually no, The law of the jungle states that the strong (or the cunning will survive). There has never been a provision for everyone to get an equal slab of the pie no matter how they operate.

Aside from that, Only the market can dictate your cut. And you sure as hell don't have accept any offer you don't want to.

And try to stop crying about the abysmal profits on bikes, There is little profit in most endeavours, bike shops aren't special cases.

I hear you loud and clear, there is no place for fairness and no one should aspire to it. Very sad.

[Headbanger]

I hear you loud and clear, there is no place for fairness and no one should aspire to it. Very sad.

yes, That is exactly what I said, Well done. Though you missed out the part about boiling and eating children.

[Dave-]

yes, That is exactly what I said, Well done. Though you missed out the part about boiling and eating children.
wait....have you ever actually worked in sales or retail?

did you sell everything for less than cost?

is this why you don't work in retail anymore?

[Big Dave]

I hear you loud and clear, there is no place for fairness and no one should aspire to it. Very sad.

Aye - I have several business I support. AMPS & Motomail eg. I've had long standing relationships with them and I just trust the people there to treat me fairly.
Happy to pay whatever their margins are because of the service I receive and my desire to keep their doors open.

[Headbanger]

wait....have you ever actually worked in sales or retail?

did you sell everything for less than cost?

is this why you don't work in retail anymore?

Yes, I have owned my own company, Part of which was a retail outlet. I have sourced the stock, marketed the stock, and sold the stock. As well as looking after the overall business.

Yes, I have dumped stock at cost and below cost, Though the wheres and whys wouldn't have been passed along to a mere salesperson.

I don't work in retail any more because its a boring job and quite frankly I have more interesting things to do.

If you must know I have my finger in 2 other companies, One of which has retail as a secondary income source.

Don't kid yourself, I have read your dribble, There is nothing you could tell me that is worth a damn, Go back to thinking how your customers are cunts.

[SixPackBack]

Aye - I have several business I support. AMPS & Motomail eg. I've had long standing relationships with them and I just trust the people there to treat me fairly.
Happy to pay whatever their margins are because of the service I receive and my desire to keep their doors open.

Most folk have trouble comprehending that concept..............No profit=no business!

[steve_t]

Aye - I have several business I support. AMPS & Motomail eg. I've had long standing relationships with them and I just trust the people there to treat me fairly.
Happy to pay whatever their margins are because of the service I receive and my desire to keep their doors open.


Big Dave, that makes you a rarity! Most people are trying to get the cheapest deal they can... hence lots buying from eBay etc. If they can't get the cheapest, they're looking for the 'extra value' from a retailer eg the free helmet or free jacket. Unfortunately, this mentality leads retail to become more like cars sales where the sticker price is inflated knowing that customers are going to haggle. Suddenly people who find they've paid sticker price when they didn't need to feel ripped off. It is the way of the world.
If people feel they are getting 'added value' from the retailer either via excellent service or perhaps a discount off sticker price (or both!), they are more likely to become repeat customers. The repeat business then becomes your bread and butter. Unfortunately for the retailers, people don't need to buy bike gear or new bikes with the same frequency as most women buy shoes and bags.

[Dave-]

I had trevor pierce here in chch do the insurance on my bike because i'd seen and heard good things from him.

what i recieved was exactly that, so i went back and bought a pair of boots and a helmet at marked price.

some bike shops do me deals (couple of bucks off) because I shop at them regularly, but I've never asked for it, and I've never expected it.

[Taz]

Where do you work Dave- ??

[Insanity_rules]

I can't say I've ever had poor treatment from any dealer in Wellington. Major credit to TSS, Wellington Motorcycles and Motomart all for really good experiences. Had good deals from all three and really good service.

[Dave-]

Where do you work Dave- ??

briscoes, riccarton.

[ynot slow]

Yes, I have owned my own company, Part of which was a retail outlet. I have sourced the stock, marketed the stock, and sold the stock. As well as looking after the overall business.

Yes, I have dumped stock at cost and below cost, Though the wheres and whys wouldn't have been passed along to a mere salesperson.

I don't work in retail any more because its a boring job and quite frankly I have more interesting things to do.

If you must know I have my finger in 2 other companies, One of which has retail as a secondary income source.

Don't kid yourself, I have read your dribble, There is nothing you could tell me that is worth a damn, Go back to thinking how your customers are cunts.

Understand ya there.Have done numerous stocktakes and the amount held is mindboggling.I know of furniture shops with wholesale value $100-150 grand in flooring stock,from 2mtr carpet remnants to 35mtr rolls,and furniture stock of $300 grand.Sure the margins seem great(better than 10-20% bike shops work on?)but when a sale is held to rid stock it is not unknown to sell at wholesale less 20% to rid the item,do this a few times at sale time and the boss' choice of buy wasn't shit hot lol.But then buying stock for your customers is hit and miss,some stuff I've thought wtf and sells next day we stock it,other stuff takes 3-4 months,other 12-18months.Then the good finance companies say if you offer I/F terms it will cost you 5-14% off the top,or reduced price uf on sale.

[The Stranger]

actually, it's more about him asking me what I would be willing to offer for the bike THEN telling me he didn't actually have it any more. don't get me wrong, these guys have to make a living too and I am more than happy to help with that.

So he was sounding out the colour of your money, so he could recommend something that fit your budget. What's the problem again?

[ynot slow]

Best thing is go to an Indian shop owner and ask for a discount when buying plums or peaches,as I said to one guy,I can't eat them so why pay for it.He saw the funny side as I was in a butchers shop when an Indian wanted a discount on chops as he couldn't eat the bones,only the meat.The butcher wasn't sure if he was serious or joking at the time.

[Big Dave]

Big Dave, that makes you a rarity!

Yeah - I'm not exactly on the bones of me bum student either.

Maybe that has meant that the trade in price wasn't the sharpest I could have got by a few hundy here and there. But if my bike breaks down getting a loaner is a breeze and they gimme a bit more than my RAT discount without asking. And somewhere to hang if I'm bored and want to annoy Patrick.

[wysper]

it's the salesmans job to find say 3 or 4 bikes he has that he thinks based upon his interpretations of your answers would be good for you, this is where the skill comes in, there's more to selling than just answers, obviously im going to be cautious about selling a super bike to a geriatric, although the skill comes in recognising whether he can operate one (because you never know, he might be)

Fair enough.
What about the client that goes in pretty much knowing exactly what he/she wants. Bike X. Now it is about the dollars. All the salesman needs to do is make the numbers work. How much should the client be expected to pay for the salesman's expertise then?

Usually by the time I actually make it to the shop I am pretty sure I know exactly what I want. I have done my homework, research, asked people I know and trust what they think. Now I am off to buy the bike. About the only service the bike shop is doing for me prior to purchase is offering a test ride.

Everything else is dollars - whats my trade worth, how much is the change over etc.

The payoff for the shop is often later and hard to quantify. If I have been treated well, I buy the bike and am back for accessories, servicing, customising and I will refer people to the shop. If I am treated poorly, my money goes elsewhere and so do my recommendations.

[Headbanger]

The payoff for the shop is often later and hard to quantify.

Funny enough my brother and father were so impressed with the service from Pete when my brother bought his last bike that now any time making a purchase gets discussed the old boy brings out his standard order to talk to Wellington Motorcycles first.

I told the old boy I know that guy through Kiwibiker, I upset him all the time......

[MarkH]

it's even worse when some cunt expects you to sell them the product at cost, what a fucking insult, if im not going to get paid for this sale then im not going to bother selling to you, the next customer might be more willing to recognise skill and be willing to pay for it.

I am confused - I have read this entire thread and wonder where this idea that someone would expect the seller to sell at cost comes from? I am pretty sure that no one here has suggesting any such thing.

I have bought products on sale - am I a cunt for doing that or is it OK to pay less if the seller offers first?

I have asked if a seller could do a better price - with answers of yes in some cases and no in others. When told no I have sometimes bought anyway because after confirming that I was already being offered the best price I decided that it was a fair price. If a seller gets all uppity and takes my low offer as an insult then fine - I can always buy elsewhere. If a seller listens to my offer and rejects it, followed by making me a counter offer then I am happy to listen to his counter offer and either accept or reject it.



so if you right off the bat ask him for a deal you're pretty much saying "im not going to pay you for your knowledge of the bike, your recommendation as a good bike for me, infact I'm going to charge you for it"

I am not to sure how any customer could charge the salesman for his knowledge, but I will say this: for me personally - I'm not going to pay you for your knowledge of the bike, your recommendation as a good bike for me or anything like that! I go into a bike shop to buy a bike and the salesman is there to sell me one. I have done my research before entering the shop and have decided what I want to buy and I am prepared to pay what it is worth, that isn't necessarily the sticker price of course. I don't 'expect' a deal, but I will ask if they will give me one. I may visit the competition and see what kind of deal they will give and if they will offer me a better deal than you then you can miss out on a sale - why should I pay you more for the same product?

I have gone into a bike shop to buy a tyre - I didn't haggle over the price and I asked their service dept when they could fit it. They were too busy to do the job anytime in the next couple of weeks. I went to another shop and asked about the same tyre, they offered me a better deal and fitted it a couple of days later. The better shop has since had more business from me, the other shop that was too busy to look after me obviously doesn't need my business. I will even pay more for better service if I decide it is worth it - that doesn't mean I will pay full sticker price for a new bike though.

[Densial]

You are either joking or you seriously believe they have margin in the bike that exceeds 20%, which I very seriously would doubt.

well it's a place to start isn't it? Don't get me wrong, I'm more than willing to haggle, I just don't want to haggle for something that's not there.

[Densial]

The bastard... he knew you wanted a bike, knew what type you were after, established your budget and tried to provide a solution???



Cheeky... No!
Problematic? No!
Taking some initiative... Yes
Offering a possible alternative to meet your needs and limitation? Yes
Doing his job? Yes
Outsmarting you? Yes

Build a bridge, or does the last point still hurt a little?

I'm way over it, stress will kill you y'know, wooo saaa, wooo saaa. Moved on, might even head over that way this weekend if I don't get something else first (TM rocks!).

All I'm sayin is if the dude didn't have the bike anymore (and more power to him for sell'n it) at least let me know. Like I said way back if he'd said "bike is sold, how about I do you a good deal on a later model" I woulda felt less like he was try'n to "outsmart?" me and more like he was try'n to help me get a the bike I might want. Still, each to their own, different strokes n'all, I am more than sure that his sales techniques get him more than enough sales and many people are quite happy with his way. Not be'n smart arse or nothing, I'm just say'n it's not me.

If I (personally me, just my way) ask about a bike then THAT IS THE BIKE I AM INTERESTED IN. I'm not necessarily interested in be'n sold something else that he has happens to have in stock just because he no longer has what I want.

[Swoop]

*Looks around for pitchfork and torch*
Borrow one of mine. I always carry a spare!
*Never know whaen a good mob is going to be passing you by, so always be prepared!*

[Densial]

personally when im selling anything I cant stand it when people EXPECT some sort of deal, so for you to ask him for a good deal because "it was new afterall!" is wankish at best.

Actually, I dissagree, sorta. I agree that you should not necessarily EXPECT some sort of deal, but historically I should be able to ask for a good deal just because "it was new afterall!" The reason is simple.

New motorcycles can be gotten anywhere, if I look at a bike at your shop and like it I can get exactly the same bike at another dealer, you have (from purely the bikes point of view) exactly no point of difference from your competitor. Yes I know, "value add", "after sales service", "loyalty" and all that, sure, but from the point of purely buying the bike, you have nothing. If I buy it down the road it is exactly the same bike.

Used is different, you want that one, with those k's, in that condition, you got no choice, it's that bike or a different bike.

But new? different game. You want me to buy from you, your only differentiator (from purely the bikes point of view) is price. Simple.

[vifferman]

You want me to buy from you, your only differentiator (from purely the bikes point of view) is price. Simple.
I disagree.
The price for new bikes includes a very small margin, so there's little room to move on it, except where it's new old stock, and the wholesaler is running a special clearance runout price, like they did with FahrtSturms and Blackbirds.
But the wholesaler's still the same for all Honda dealers, so there's very little difference. What it comes down to then is the dealer, and what attitude they have. If they're mercenary, and treat you like a wallet with legs, and don't give a shit about you or customer service, and aren't good at pretending they do care, then I'd go elsewhere, even if the price is marginally higher elsewhere.
How's that old aphorism go? "The bitter taste of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten"
That holds true for low quality customer service too.

If I buy a new (or newish) machine, I want it to be from a dealer who at least makes an effort to appear to look after me. For most people, a bike is (in the final analysis) not much more than an expensive toy. Good relations with your dealer is part of the whole experience that makes owning that toy more fun. I enjoyed owning my VFR for all of a couple of days before the bitter taste of an arrogant and mercenary attitude from the dealer spoiled it.
It's just a pity I wasn't more circumspect. While I couldn't have bought this particular bike elsewhere, I can and have spent thousands of dollars elsewhere since then, on parts, consumables, bike gear, servicing. I've got some very good deals, and some excellent customer service.

[Dodgy]

This mystifies me a little, and it seems to show in part that bargining is not really part of Kiwi culture

Other cultures embrace bargining (for example when I was in Egypt) but it seems here that at times the practice is viewed dimply, as if it is dishonest?

I never used to feel comfortable with negotiation, then I got into sales and now sell multi million dollar solutions. At that level the game can take months of negotiation and I do not take it personally, we come in high, the customer wants it lower or more value attached and so the game begins. Where we end up has to be mutually beneficial, otherwise the deal will not go ahead.

Would it not be the same with buying a bike? Ask for free servicing for two years, dealer says one year. Ask for a helmet and jacket at cost... Who knows... play the game

[ynot slow]

The point is also price vs service as stated numerous times.
Most and nearly 100% of guys who want to buy a bike have done their research,go into the shop concerned and buy if the figures stack up.By this I mean say you want a Honda VFR800,on sale for $12500,you get a trade price of say $4000,balance $8500,you know you can afford to pay $8000,so ask if he'll take $7000,if he says no can't do it,you have 2 options-1) state value up to your $8000 limit and hope for best,or-2) leave and go elsewhere,assuming you have another bike same make,model elsewhere.

Sometimes if the bike is a slow seller,or been in stock for months they will sell to quit it at a good price to you,and hope like hell you come back to buy again.More often if it is fresh on lot you don't get that option.

[Gremlin]

I'm with Big Dave on this, and I firmly believe in having a relationship with the shop. I have a shortlist (no more than 3-5) and will shop at the most important ones first, then, if they can't get, go to the next one on the list etc.

As Dave says, sure, perhaps you don't get the sharpest deals every time, but you looking after the shop and them looking after you is worth much much more. Sometimes they'll ask, and go, is the price OK, and I simply respond, I trust what you say, you'll look after me.

I think a lot of you guys are forgetting. A business is out there to survive and maximise its position. This can be through profit alone, but generally, having a large set of customers who are loyal and you get a bit less, are much more profitable, as you spend less time "selling" to them.

Its all a big game. Businesses want your dollars, you want products. You want to pay less, businesses want as much as they can get. I don't quibble on prices because most of the time I don't pay retail. But those shops get thousands of dollars a year, not even factoring bikes into that. However, I also get loaners as needed, they'll pick me up if I have issues etc.

[vifferman]

A business is out there to survive and maximise its position. This can be through profit alone, but generally, having a large set of customers who are loyal and you get a bit less, are much more profitable, as you spend less time "selling" to them.
Eggs Zachary. It's not rocket science, just good business practices (which doesn't have to include being an arsehole or always having to make a big profit on everything!).
As long as I feel like I'm being taken care of, and get the odd good deal, I'm happy, and will keep coming back. I'll even put up with the odd cockup or less than stellar deal or bad bit of service, as long as I feel like I'm a valued customer, rather than a bloody nuisance or a free meal ticket.

[ynot slow]

Also called goodwill,how many remember the old days being 5 or 10c short at the local dairy,you'd be told it's ok fix up next time.My parents owned a dairy years ago and used the same ideals,any customer who was short 5c or so would pay up next time,and settle their account on time.

[Robert Taylor]

I also like to think that ANY business I deal with makes a fair and reasonable profit. That is what keeps businesses going, keeps people employed and keeps mouths fed. We often lose sight of that and several who have posted on here have a deplorable dog eat dog attitude.
My politics are unashamedly conservative, I support legitimate business that carries people along with it. Conversely I dont have much time for brazenly speculative business such as real estate. Everyone has a right to a decent standard of living and a decent job that they should work hard at. Profit ( reasonable profit) is not a dirty word, it provides employment and the major taxation base.
Many small businesses in this country struggle because overheads are disproportionately high compared to returns, fact.

[BMWST?]

Who knows... play the game

this is where it gets interesting isnt it.He admits to offering a 20 percent lower price,then he gets upset when the guy asks him how much he wants to spend on a bike...the saleman WAS playing the game...what was he supposed to do....say the bike is gone and hang up?

[BMWST?]

I am confused - I have read this entire thread and wonder where this idea that someone would expect the seller to sell at cost comes from? I am pretty sure that no one here has suggesting any such thing.



...he admits he offered him a price 20 percent less.....

[MarkH]

...he admits he offered him a price 20 percent less.....

but doesn't say that he expected the dealer to accept it - he even acknowledges that it was a cheeky offer.

Offering to pay cost price does not equal expecting the dealer to accept cost price. It would be more likely that you would expect a counter-offer rather than acceptance of your offer.