Whining lawyers

[Timber020]

They were just saying how badly off lawyers are who are doing legal aid, starting at 88 dollars an hour for a noob and going up to "only" 182 per hour. Oh how do they cope?
Living on a mere $3500 if they bill a 40 hour week. Oh the horror, thats not alot over 170k a year. Youd have to do overtime to get a decent porsche on that kind of chicken feed.

Shame on you NZ for being so tight, SHAME!

Why does my trigger finger twitch when I think about lawyers?

[HenryDorsetCase]

They were just saying how badly off lawyers are who are doing legal aid, starting at 88 dollars an hour for a noob and going up to "only" 182 per hour. Oh how do they cope?
Living on a mere $3500 if they bill a 40 hour week. Oh the horror, thats not alot over 170k a year. Youd have to do overtime to get a decent porsche on that kind of chicken feed.

Shame on you NZ for being so tight, SHAME!

Why does my trigger finger twitch when I think about lawyers?

perhaps you can't afford a good one?

Do the maths : even if your figures are right, $170k/yr is gross turnover for the business the particular lawyer is running. Do you know anything about that? think about rent, over heads (like the quite high cost of being in business as a lawyer esp if you run a trust account), staff support, tax and stuff. Sure a barrister sole could in theory make that $170k/yr go a long way, but the nett is ageing VW beetle material, NOT Porsche material.

Maybe the big playaz are making good money, but I noted that Greg King and Mike Reid got around 1. somthing million and 2 million respectively (IIRC). there were four lawyers on each of those trials so that would have been spread out over them, plus over the MONTHS of prep and the months long trial. as an hourly rate I bet its fuck all.

I know people who do legal aid work, and due to the difficulty of getting approval from the boards and whatever, the effective rate is less than that: example being it might take ten hours to prep for something, you get paid for five. Or you end up litigating the thing twice, once for the LSA, once in Court.

It is especially significant that the administration cost of either each case, or each hour of lawyer time funded (I can't remember it clearly) has gone from just over a hundred dollars to $250: so due to the heap of admin crap being dealt with its LESS efficient than it was.

those rates are nothing compared to chargeout rates in private practice. Even a wet behind the ears (shit, wet all the way to the ground) new grad is charged out at $125/hr plus GST, and all they are good for is licking stamps and looking confused.

I do agree that legal aid is complete nightmare, but in my view the answer is pretty simple: remove waitangi treaty claims from coverage, or treat them like they do matrimonial property claims, as a loan to be repaid from the proceeds of settlements. that gets you about half the money back, just like that.

There will always be a need for indigent litigants, and criminals to be publicly funded: its our duty as citizens to provide it, so suck it up.

I doubt whether the current gummint has any stomach for it, but the idea of the office of the public defender (a lot of US jurisdictions have it) seems like a good one. Of course they get the same budget pressures the LSA does.

Hopefully you got the reaction you wanted.

[98tls]

They were just saying how badly off lawyers are who are doing legal aid, starting at 88 dollars an hour for a noob and going up to "only" 182 per hour. Oh how do they cope?
Living on a mere $3500 if they bill a 40 hour week. Oh the horror, thats not alot over 170k a year. Youd have to do overtime to get a decent porsche on that kind of chicken feed.

Shame on you NZ for being so tight, SHAME!

Why does my trigger finger twitch when I think about lawyers? No doubt your quite happy to tick a square every 3 years,value for money is it?

[SixPackBack]

Scourge of society. Self serving blood suckers with no practical use, and yes I'm gunna say it, worse than the coppers by many degrees.

[CookMySock]

even if your figures are right, $170k/yr is gross turnover for the business the particular lawyer is running.There are not many businesses that can survive with a gross turnover that low. :Oops:

He will need to double that just to survive.

Steve

[Drunken Monkey]

Living on a mere $3500 if they bill a 40 hour week.

Not many bill that many hours a week, not unless they're working 60... 60-70% efficiency is about the norm.

[nadroj]

Just paid over $10k to the bloodsuckers at $250/hr for the lawyer & $150/hr for a legal executive who employ 1 legal secretary between them.
Fuck that hurt!

[HenryDorsetCase]

Just paid over $10k to the bloodsuckers at $250/hr for the lawyer & $150/hr for a legal executive who employ 1 legal secretary between them.
Fuck that hurt!

But it was obviously worth it, right? otherwise why would you continue?

[firefighter]

But it was obviously worth it, right? otherwise why would you continue?

Once you start spending money like that for a cause (whatever), to stop would be a very hard thing to do.

[firefighter]

Are you sure?......Seems like a lot of ice cream to me!

yep. Can't say iv'e met a lot of lawyers, buy the ones I have met have been far from the breadline. I'd say closer to the delicious French pastiesline..............If you catch my drift.

You don't often hear of poor lawyers. Sure they must exist, The Castle showed me that. :shifty:

[HenryDorsetCase]

yep. Can't say iv'e met a lot of lawyers, buy the ones I have met have been far from the breadline. I'd say closer to the delicious French pastiesline..............If you catch my drift.

You don't often hear of poor lawyers. Sure they must exist, The Castle showed me that. :shifty:

mmmmm paaaaaaastriiiiiiiiiiiiiies. what were we talking about?


The Castle is one of the best documentaries ever made.

[firefighter]

mmmmm paaaaaaastriiiiiiiiiiiiiies. what were we talking about?


The Castle is one of the best documentaries ever made.

Hahaha, yeah it sure is....

What do you know about lead? :laugh:

[The Stranger]

Once you start spending money like that for a cause (whatever), to stop would be a very hard thing to do.

And therein lies the rub.
Most who spend that kind of money with a lawyer bring the curse on themselves due to their own stupidity, lack of forethought or foresight or pig headedness.
To top it off, then want to blame the lawyer for it.

[spacemonkey]

But it was obviously worth it, right? otherwise why would you continue?

Cos the legal system is set so that the layperson is very effectively shut out, if you try doing any legal stuff yourself, the other persons lawyers will screw you over.

There isn't really any viable alternative for him to use..... Don't pay the lawyers whatever they feel like billing you = getting hurt.
But just because that is so, it doesn't mean that the level of charges are fair on the client or even justified.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Cos the legal system is set so that the layperson is very effectively shut out, if you try doing any legal stuff yourself, the other persons lawyers will screw you over.

There isn't really any viable alternative for him to use..... Don't pay the lawyers whatever they feel like billing you = getting hurt.
But just because that is so, it doesn't mean that the level of charges are fair on the client or even justified.

I hate how the plumbing system is set up so the layperson is effectively shut out. If you try doing any plumbing stuff yourself you really get screwed over by councils and other plumbers fixing your cockups.

"whatever they feel like billing you": right. Last I noticed we are in a pretty competitive market place. I have lost jobs because someone quoted lower (and to be honest, been glad to see them go: people focussed only on price tend to be very difficult clients indeed).

What is "Fair on the client"? "justified" to whom?

Think of it this way: You ride a Ducati 1198R Troy Bayliss replica no 26 of 200 made (RRP $46000USD). Where do you take it to be serviced/fettled/tuned? Bubbas Moorsickles where a large man with a fag in one corner of his mouth and the biggest hammer you've ever seen says "sure, ah ken fux it, but it sure is a funny lookin Harley, must be onea them v rods I seen a pitcher of". Or do you take it to the dealership with the appropriate tooling, accreditation, investment in trained personnel and equipment, and get it done right?

Most people's experience of lawyers and lawyering is based on stuff they think is easy: buying or selling residential property, or maybe making a will, or dealing with Mum or Dad's estate. So as you see it, its "just a bunch of forms to be filled out, and sign where the stickers are:anyone can do that yet they charge so much".

That isnt all we do, nor is it really what you're paying for: what I tell all our new graduates is this: You are a plumber. You get paid to do stuff people can't or won't do themselves: a lot of people dont like being in shit up to their elbows, but you're getting paid so roll your sleeves up and get stuck in.

Its not magic, but it is specialized, it does require a lot of investment, and yes, it costs. But the service provided is worth money, otherwise we'd all be starving. And I'm doing OK, thanks for asking.

And no, I wont be baited into responding again.*




*never say never

[The Stranger]

Cos the legal system is set so that the layperson is very effectively shut out, if you try doing any legal stuff yourself, the other persons lawyers will screw you over.

There isn't really any viable alternative for him to use..... Don't pay the lawyers whatever they feel like billing you = getting hurt.
But just because that is so, it doesn't mean that the level of charges are fair on the client or even justified.

You are of course right - to a point.
Despite my last post, I must confess I have spent more time with lawyers than any man should have to. This was mostly because of construction disputes.
Unfortunately the construction industry is much like KB, everyone's opinion is valid and no one is ever wrong, so we all needed to go to court to prove this right.
Fuck off, settle! Avoid court and lawyers at all costs. Help the other party see reason, make damn sure they know what it will cost them to go to court. Here's a curly one. Entertain the idea you may just be wrong and be prepared to be conciliatory. Hell even if you know you are right, but it's heading to court despite your best efforts, be prepared to yield. Unless you KNOW (not KB know, but real know) you are 100% in the right, stay away - even then be prepared for the worst (Used to be that 55% of cases appealed fromt he district court were overturned, I doubt that has changed). NEVER go to court on a matter of "principal", you will loose - even if you win.

[SPman]

...............construction disputes...........:eek::bash::girlfight::2guns::b ash::finger::kick::buggerd: :weep::drinknsin
:violin:........

and sometimes they're worse, all because at least one of the parties is a certified fuckwit who KNOWS he's in the right!

Much better to stay well away from them - preferably about .308 range - it would often be easier........

[pete376403]

The gummint can hardly grizzle over defense lawyers spending the hours/dollars they do to try and get a favourable result for their clients - after all there doesn't seem to be any limit on how much the prosecution will spend to get a conviction.

[peasea]

The gummint can hardly grizzle over defense lawyers spending the hours/dollars they do to try and get a favourable result for their clients - after all there doesn't seem to be any limit on how much the prosecution will spend to get a conviction.

Damned good point. Try and prove your innocence when up against the Po-Lees Dee-part-ment.

You're guilty until you can prove otherwise and legal aid lawyers are not your best defence. You need to re-mortgage your house for a good (sic) lawyer and even if you're found not guilty/innocent/whatever there's little help for you when you are released.

Groan........

[Timber020]

If your having to quote so hard to get work and to many are not making enough the problem is pretty obvious and it can be fixed with my itchy trigger finger. To many lawyers. I lived in the states for a while, its a shining example of how badly a whole nation and its people can be screwed when lawyers have to much influence.

Plenty of small businesses survive on less than 175k a year, thousands of them. They hire staff, run vehicles, equipment, pay morgages, support familys and even pay tax.
I know a company that currently hires 2 full timers, and one 2 days a week, run 4 vehicles and spends more on gear a year than it would cost to rent an office for a year. It wouldnt break 200k a year.

[ready4whatever]

Damn. I was happy with 15 bucks an hour, cause now I dont have a job

[Dave Lobster]

Lawyer fees don't seem to be a hassle for P dealers.. just ask Barry Hart...

[HenryDorsetCase]

If your having to quote so hard to get work and to many are not making enough the problem is pretty obvious and it can be fixed with my itchy trigger finger. To many lawyers. I lived in the states for a while, its a shining example of how badly a whole nation and its people can be screwed when lawyers have to much influence.

Plenty of small businesses survive on less than 175k a year, thousands of them. They hire staff, run vehicles, equipment, pay morgages, support familys and even pay tax.
I know a company that currently hires 2 full timers, and one 2 days a week, run 4 vehicles and spends more on gear a year than it would cost to rent an office for a year. It wouldnt break 200k a year.

is there a point here somewhere?