Encouraging ACC to support Trackdays in NZ

[Genestho]

Hey Guys

Some of you will know I am part of a Pilot group in NZ based around changing attitudes to Motorcycling and Road Safety, getting involved in lowering stats, with ACC backing (one of my many hats)

I have been given a chance to come up with and present ideas at a BADD/ACC Meeting next week, with open slather on ACC resources.

My first idea is to have ACC back Trackdays in NZ.

"Speed on the Track, not on the Roads"
With a list of upcoming Track days.
This will be presented through the BADDRally, and BADD 3 Hour Endurance Race - 27th December.

I have requested that ACC YOUTUBE their Group Riding info, rather than expecting Motorcyclists to write in for a free copy from the Ride Right Ride Safe site. Instant satisfaction.

I'd also like to promote wearing proper gear, vs jandals and jeans ( I see it all the time and cringe)

Any one else got any ideas?

[p.dath]

I suspect you need to put it in financial terms for ACC.

So by backing track days, it will cost ACC $ for the resulting accidents. But the saving from road accidents will be $.

At the end of the day, its a pretty simple financial decision for them.

[Genestho]

I suspect you need to put it in financial terms for ACC.

So by backing track days, it will cost ACC $ for the resulting accidents. But the saving from road accidents will be $.

At the end of the day, its a pretty simple financial decision for them.

Oh yea, that's a given. At this point it's an ideas meeting.

And I'd say it would start with promoting the Idea. As to how far it could extend, I couldn't say, but it's a foot in the door, which is a good thing.

[vifferman]

If it's just track days, I can't see there's much there to appeal to ACC, even with the "Speed on the track, not on the road" mantra. Supporting Advanced Rider Training days is a better proposition (even though they're effectively the same thing).

[Genestho]

To pull this off, I'd need access to track day dates from December 09 - December '10 (For instance) Is there a reliable source to get these dates from? Including as many Motorcycling tracks as poss?

[javawocky]

How about an ACC rebate on the levy? If rider attends X Advanced riding school in the year, they get a Y discount or rebate on motorcycle registration.

[Genestho]

How about an ACC rebate on the levy? If rider attends X Advanced riding school in the year, they get a Y discount or rebate on motorcycle registration.
Good idea dude, I would tend to put that in a submission, regarding ACC/CC levies in the "Safer Journeys" Consultation papers/Submissions over at MOT.

I'm sort of looking for things to promote safety, and the positive sides to Motorcycling, instead of all the negatives presented, through an event.

[Genestho]

If it's just track days, I can't see there's much there to appeal to ACC, even with the "Speed on the track, not on the road" mantra. Supporting Advanced Rider Training days is a better proposition (even though they're effectively the same thing).

Deleted above post regarding this, this idea is in the pipeline, as to how far it could extend, I can't say. Is there an accredited group, or groups that I could source? I don't see why we couldn't actively promote this as well.

Also, the more ideas I could present, the more chance we have of ACC backing something presented.

[James Deuce]

No. Absolutely not.

The only "trackdays" ACC should be supporting are days where a track is hired to work on specific bike control drills and training that specifically targets road skills.

The current NZ track day format of hooning around in circles until you fall off "so you can learn how to control your bike a high speed" is bollocks.

AN unsupervised track day teaches you nothing about road riding. ACC want accident stats down. WHy would they support track days that don't focus on ROad riding skills? Why SHOULD they?

[Genestho]

No. Absolutely not.

The only "trackdays" ACC should be supporting are days where a track is hired to work on specific bike control drills and training that specifically targets road skills.

The current NZ track day format of hooning around in circles until you fall off "so you can learn how to control your bike a high speed" is bollocks.

AN unsupervised track day teaches you nothing about road riding. ACC want accident stats down. WHy would they support track days that don't focus on ROad riding skills? Why SHOULD they?
Hmmm, so JD are you saying we should promote proper ROAD riding training?

The only reason I thought of Trackdays, are for the ones that pick the roads to hoon on, purely for hooning purposes (I know I'm generalising but say youth riders - no oncoming traffic, keeping testosterone off the roads) are there supervised trackdays?

I know the difference between roads and tracks, and the reasons why both are enjoyed.

[Genestho]

Doing a google searching Supervised Advanced Rider Training NZ, I found our very own Moto-tt Track days



"MotoTT trackdays are designed to cater for all riders, from learners to people born on two wheels. Riders are split into 4 groups depending on their experience and ability.

For the newer riders we offer a relaxed group (4). MotoTT staff circulate in this group (as well as group 3) wearing hi vis vests.


These staff keep an eye on the new riders and offer support, advice, show smooth lines and braking points. If you want you can follow the circulating lines bike for a few laps to learn good approaches to corners etc. Anyone wanting specific help is welcome to ask for a hi vis vest to wear, the lines staff will pay more attention to these riders…. Don't be shy, we'd love to help!"

[CookMySock]

Theres little or no point supporting "proper" road riding training. Average joe motorcycle rider doesn't need to know how countersteer deep into a corner or advanced braking, because he shouldn't be doing that - he should just slow down. Any higher-end skills are lost after two weeks because theres not enough repitition or the rider just does have the nuts to try it, or a safe environment.

Basic roadcraft is basic roadcraft, and 99% of people already have that. The ones that dont have it probably can't be taught it, or just dont give a fuck.

The ones to target, are those who WANT to speed and hare around like an idiot. Let them go for it where there is nothing to hit. If they fall off, they fuck their bike and bend their little finger backwards.. shrug.

ACC could offer vouchers for track time. Just write in and ask for them.

Steve

[Genestho]

ACC could offer vouchers for track time. Just write in and ask for them.

Steve

Worth an ask!

[p.dath]

To pull this off, I'd need access to track day dates from December 09 - December '10 (For instance) Is there a reliable source to get these dates from? Including as many Motorcycling tracks as poss?

Check out the racing calendar on this web site.

[Genestho]

Thanks, I'm letting my fingers do the walking... I was being lazy teehee!

[scott411]

ACC are promoting a advance rider day at hampton downs, they have been in here with advertising material for it,

[Genestho]

ACC are promoting a advance rider day at hampton downs, they have been in here with advertising material for it,
Ah thanks! I might mention that at my meeting! That'll be a different region, I suspect.
How recent was that mate? I'm also hoping I could make this happen more than once, and at more than one track.

[Squiggles]

They support rider training days, but i wouldnt want them coughing up $$ for trackdays

[Squiggles]

Ah thanks! I might mention that at my meeting! That'll be a different region, I suspect.
How recent was that mate? I'm also hoping I could make this happen more than once, and at more than one track.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129370840&postcount=143
I was sent it by the Auckland ACC reps a week or two ago

[Genestho]

They support rider training days, but i wouldnt want them coughing up $$ for trackdays
Ah ok, I don't know enough about how far they support trackdays, never heard of it!

I was asked yesterday - how can ACC promote something through your BADD event, come prepared with some ideas, so thinking Trackdays were not already promoted through ACC, thought I'd go that route, along side Group Riding info and safe gear info.

I thought maybe utilising Steve's (DB) idea, that perhaps we could have some freestuff at the BADD Event (some free trackday passes - maybe even spot prizes), and promote all track day events for the next year, big Poster, calendar dates on it, which club, which track.
It's just a promo moment at an event. But promoting Trackdays to youth riders, long term rather than one offs.

[red675]

One area not covered so far is insurance company support for trackdays - Star (amongst others) is covering its policyholders for specific trackday organisers who have demonstrated that controls on behaviour are in place and being enforced, ie: not a no rules environment but one where tuition is available and bad behaviour rewarded accordingly.

I would have thought the ACC's and insurance companies' concerns overlapped perfectly.

[sondela]

Theres little or no point supporting "proper" road riding training. Average joe motorcycle rider doesn't need to know how countersteer deep into a corner or advanced braking, because he shouldn't be doing that - he should just slow down. Any higher-end skills are lost after two weeks because theres not enough repitition or the rider just does have the nuts to try it, or a safe environment.

Basic roadcraft is basic roadcraft, and 99% of people already have that. The ones that dont have it probably can't be taught it, or just dont give a fuck.

The ones to target, are those who WANT to speed and hare around like an idiot. Let them go for it where there is nothing to hit. If they fall off, they fuck their bike and bend their little finger backwards.. shrug.

ACC could offer vouchers for track time. Just write in and ask for them.

Steve

Sorry, gotta disagree, I spun my (rear wheel drive) car out in the rain awhile back, and it happened because I had no idea what I ought to have done, so I did it wrong :first:

went and did a defensive driving course and learned about what to do, and what not to do, so now if I lose traction again, I have some idea how to react (if you do a practical, it stays in your brain!)!

It's important to be told what to do, so if there's an emergency you can try at least to get it right.

Riding bikes isn't instinctive, it needs to be taught and everyone needs to be taught how to do it properly..

[PaddyFZ1]

ACC are promoting a advance rider day at hampton downs, they have been in here with advertising material for it,

The Training day at Hampton downs is being run by the Hamilton Motorcycle Club. Sold out already. 160 places. :doh: I attended the same event that was held at Taupo last year.
I found it a great help. I wouldnt class myself as a noob, been riding on and off for nearly 20 years, and what i was able to pick up from that training day, ive been passing on to any one that wants help.
This has been a great help and i recommend a track based, road training day for all riders.

[dubshack]

One big challenge that I can see is who can administer training.
Most guys at most track days are not qualified or certified to train anybody. They are "experienced" riders who are "helping" the less experienced.
How about having the ACC certify training organisations and once a rider has attended one of these certified events then there is some benefit to them. It can't be registration discounts as people will register their bikes to Dad who did the course etc
I have a huge interest in this as I am behind bringing the California Superbike School to NZ. Those that don't know, this school is regarded as the best in the world and quite simply the one that every other school is trying to copy or using the technology developed by its founder, Keith Code. We have had over 150,000 students attend from relatively new riders through to world champions.
In the USA it is now compulsory for all US Marines that want to ride a bike to attend a school that was developed specifically for them by Keith. This is because they lose more marines in motorcycle accidents they they do at war.

I am a huge fan of training riders but the trainers must be certified. As ride coaches for the CSS we are not certified by any government. We are certified by Keith so I don't know how that would go down either. I would also like to stand up and say that ride coaches from CSS are the best in the world. We have the history to prove that.

I am happy to help with this in any way possible.

[Genestho]

One big challenge that I can see is who can administer training.
Most guys at most track days are not qualified or certified to train anybody. They are "experienced" riders who are "helping" the less experienced.
How about having the ACC certify training organisations and once a rider has attended one of these certified events then there is some benefit to them. It can't be registration discounts as people will register their bikes to Dad who did the course etc
I have a huge interest in this as I am behind bringing the California Superbike School to NZ. Those that don't know, this school is regarded as the best in the world and quite simply the one that every other school is trying to copy or using the technology developed by its founder, Keith Code. We have had over 150,000 students attend from relatively new riders through to world champions.
In the USA it is now compulsory for all US Marines that want to ride a bike to attend a school that was developed specifically for them by Keith. This is because they lose more marines in motorcycle accidents they they do at war.

I am a huge fan of training riders but the trainers must be certified. As ride coaches for the CSS we are not certified by any government. We are certified by Keith so I don't know how that would go down either. I would also like to stand up and say that ride coaches from CSS are the best in the world. We have the history to prove that.

I am happy to help with this in any way possible.

The point you raise about certification vs experienced is very valid, and could be a good reason as to why ACC would NOT promote something like Trackdays - if there's absence of certification or NZTA Approval, I wondered about that.

BUT in saying that I can feel intial interest, I know the benefits have been noted, along with training for schoolies.

I'm aware of the Californian Superbike School, its arrival to NZ, and also aware of the US Marines having to be schooled. I followed Kevin Schwantz's involvement in this.
So are you saying CSS is not certified by the US Govt either?

TBH I don't think ACC would have the jurisdiction to certify.

I think there would be a need to be "NZTA approved" maybe to have full ACC backing.

I guess it's worth asking about though. But I would be interested in knowing more info of the CSS certifications, particularly because of the obvious interest and scope in the US!

[sleemanj]

I think that for ACC to consider "trackdays" as supportable that there would need to be some study undertaken to show if attendance at "trackdays" has any noticable effect on the average accident rate amongst those riders.

Now, I think I would be pretty cautious about such a study, because I could see how it could backfire and actually show the opposite, people who attend "trackdays" may well be more prone to accidents on the public roads, for a number of reasons I could imagine.

Organised, specific, advanced rider training particularly with a public road speed and conditions focus, conducted by qualified professionals, I can see that ACC would absolutely be interested in because I doubt there is any question that such training improves the accident rate.

As others have said, ACC is a company, they are looking for a return on investment, not subsidising fun.

[Genestho]

I see what you're saying, but I'm not talking about ACC subsidising anything at this point.
If they were to explore subsidising I suspect you'd be right.


What I'm talking about is using my event, inviting ACC to promote getting youth riders off the road and onto the track, if the main cause of crashes are speed - utilising ACC resources.

The other main causes being alcohol - well I'll have that covered, and promoted, inexperience - training - that's covered to a point until other intiatives are explored - by Ride Right Ride Safe.

And safe gear, hi vis.

Last year the ACC Motorcycling Campaign was "Watch out for Motorcyclists" aimed at car drivers, now it's aimed at Motorcyclists and responsibilty for ones own safety.

All up for discussion anyway:yes:

[James Deuce]

I see what you're saying, but I'm not talking about ACC subsidising anything at this point.
If they were to explore subsidising I suspect you'd be right.


What I'm talking about is using my event, inviting ACC to promote getting youth riders off the road and onto the track, if the main cause of crashes are speed - utilising ACC resources.

The other main causes being alcohol - well I'll have that covered, and promoted, inexperience - training - that's covered to a point until other intiatives are explored - by Ride Right Ride Safe.

And safe gear, hi vis.

Last year the ACC Motorcycling Campaign was "Watch out for Motorcyclists" aimed at car drivers, now it's aimed at Motorcyclists and responsibilty for ones own safety.

All up for discussion anyway:yes:

It's not youth crashing at high speed on the road. Have a close look at the accident stats (I know you do anyway :)).

Hi-vis clothing doesn't work. The issue with riders and bikes not being seen is a psycho-physiological issue and needs intensive education to overcome it. The best approach is the 'Look for bikes" campaign combined with compulsory oobservation skills as part of any rider or driver training. The mass delusion that Hi-vis vests make people more visible is of greater concern to me than young blokes/ettes riding in t-shirts, jeans and sneakers.

[dubshack]

One thing that I would recommend that you push for is a tougher driving test for car and licenses. One that requires some real driver training and actually possessing some skills before you can drive on the road.
The supermarket carpark should be enough to demonstrate that too many drivers in NZ simply can't do the basics let alone drive on the open road.

[Genestho]

It's not youth crashing at high speed on the road. Have a close look at the accident stats (I know you do anyway :)).

Hi-vis clothing doesn't work. The issue with riders and bikes not being seen is a psycho-physiological issue and needs intensive education to overcome it. The best approach is the 'Look for bikes" campaign combined with compulsory oobservation skills as part of any rider or driver training. The mass delusion that Hi-vis vests make people more visible is of greater concern to me than young blokes/ettes riding in t-shirts, jeans and sneakers.

Ok Ok, I've had sleep, and thunk on it, I'm not feeling the love for promoting Trackdays, I'll still suggest promoting Trackdays or something similar (Obstinate tart Arn't I? :bleh:)

Look out for Motorcyclists is a campaign I too, wish was kept up, as you're right.
However though, as there's a turn in the stat's showing rider error the campaign this year is aimed at this. BUT....

I don't how many times we or friends, were on the road, and U turned on, or cut in front of, etc etc... we had our own ideas how to work with that - a plan to bail on a sign, quick thinking and defensive riding saved us on more than one occasion, we wore gear every where, headlight on in daylight, even just up the road, too easy!!!

Unfortunately good gear and a headlight did naff all, when faced with a random vehicle, out of control, just around a corner, and being the second bike to impact - the first bike, bodies and car were already exploding, debri flying everywhere, and no time to process a plan we'd used many times before.

I'm sure there must be an existing resource for that campaign, trouble is, my event is aimed at Motorcyclists, and Motorcyclists are already courteous to bikes when in a car!

How we can promote that to general public - I'd have to think about.

The Right Gear/Hi Vis stuff will be promoted, as it's a cynch. (Sorry JD I know you're anti this!!)

[James Deuce]

The Right Gear/Hi Vis stuff will be promoted, as it's a cynch. (Sorry JD I know you're anti this!!)

It doesn't work. It's related to the way the human brain works. At speed it casually edits your surroundings. Your brain is built for a maximum of 20kph. Over that you're no longer able to react instantly, you're in planning mode. You have to teach people to look for bikes.

It sounds simplistic, but it is literally teaching people to investigate their surroundings visually in a new way. Teaching people to check at intersections and check their mirrors for longer than the average 10th of a second will reduce the two vehicle accident rate enormously.

Another point to bear in mind, in that 10th of a second, your brain isn't seeing in colour.

I'm not "anti" reflective vests. The stats gathered about them are suspect. The kind of people who wear them from the word go, are not the sort of people who typicallu behave in a way that generates injury accidents. When you investigate a group of vest wearing nanas it is easy to conclude that the vests reduced the accident rate. It didn't. The rider's attitude to riding a bike reduced the accident rate. That group's accident rate would be all but the same even if they'd never worn vests. The Nana's tribal colours merely identify them.

Again, in low light, you don't see in colour. How does a hi-vis vest help? It doesn't. The reflective strips on the jacket are what is important, as it improves the visibility of the darkened side profile of a motorcycle at night. Most textile motorcycle jackets and luggage have reflective material built in for this very reason. Those reflectors people rip off the forks and the side of the seat unit are there for the same reason. In foul weather I wear a vest. Not a hi-vis one. It's a mesh vest with wide reflective strips.

[Genestho]

It doesn't work. It's related to the way the human brain works. At speed it casually edits your surroundings. Your brain is built for a maximum of 20kph. Over that you're no longer able to react instantly, you're in planning mode. You have to teach people to look for bikes.

It sounds simplistic, but it is literally teaching people to investigate their surroundings visually in a new way. Teaching people to check at intersections and check their mirrors for longer than the average 10th of a second will reduce the two vehicle accident rate enormously.

Another point to bear in mind, in that 10th of a second, your brain isn't seeing in colour.

I'm not "anti" reflective vests. The stats gathered about them are suspect. The kind of people who wear them from the word go, are not the sort of people who typicallu behave in a way that generates injury accidents. When you investigate a group of vest wearing nanas it is easy to conclude that the vests reduced the accident rate. It didn't. The rider's attitude to riding a bike reduced the accident rate. That group's accident rate would be all but the same even if they'd never worn vests. The Nana's tribal colours merely identify them.

Again, in low light, you don't see in colour. How does a hi-vis vest help? It doesn't. The reflective strips on the jacket are what is important, as it improves the visibility of the darkened side profile of a motorcycle at night. Most textile motorcycle jackets and luggage have reflective material built in for this very reason. Those reflectors people rip off the forks and the side of the seat unit are there for the same reason. In foul weather I wear a vest. Not a hi-vis one. It's a mesh vest with wide reflective strips.

No I agree with what you say about investigating the surroundings...That's not simplistic at all.

I've been caught out by a quiet Jap bike in my cars blind spot, luckily I checked over my shoulder before making a move! (The move was wait for the bike to pass, before using the right lane of a passing lane - simple, one would think. On an extremely loud bike have had cars cut off at a passing lane)

Personally I'm more in favour of The Right Gear. Bare ankles on Harleys give me the heebies(sorry seen it before many times), billowing rain jackets and bare knees, do the same, same with open face helmets ( I know personal preference)
Only because the only thing undamaged in my boys smash - was his face, with a gash between eyebrows, where the visor dug in.

Thing with promoting hi-vis, it's promoting the idea, by cynch - I mean a cynch for ACC, they're already doing it.

Have you more than anecdotal evidence, or could you please link to studies to illustrate your thoughts on reflective gear? Not taking the piss, I'd actually like to read about it, and use it.

[James Deuce]

Have you more than anecdotal evidence, or could you please link to studies to illustrate your thoughts on reflective gear? Not taking the piss, I'd actually like to read about it, and use it.
I've posted citations on KB repeatedly over the years, I've communicated with ACC and NZTA about it over the years. I'll comminicate with you diorectly and avoid the "search" feature.

[Genestho]

I've posted citations on KB repeatedly over the years, I've communicated with ACC and NZTA about it over the years. I'll comminicate with you diorectly and avoid the "search" feature.
Good Man!!!! :yes:

I've just found the section in the Safer Journeys consultation paper - Raising Awareness and Advertising "Promote high vis and protective clothing for Motorcyclists" Anything cited you have maybe useful as a submission addressing that.

[Genestho]

One thing that I would recommend that you push for is a tougher driving test for car and licenses. One that requires some real driver training and actually possessing some skills before you can drive on the road.
The supermarket carpark should be enough to demonstrate that too many drivers in NZ simply can't do the basics let alone drive on the open road.
LOL! I laugh at the supermarket analogy, so true! Take it further, trolleys inside the supermarket!!

In the Safer Journeys consultation paper there are a few things sorf of adressing what you say here.

Extend learner license period to 12 months.
Strengthen the restricted license test to encourage 120 hours of supervised driving practise.
Increase the benefit of approved prfoessional driver training courses, (eg, allow these to be taken in the learner license phase and replace time reduction for completion with another incentive)
Impound vehicles for those who breach GDSL license conditions
Increase vehicle restrictions for young drivers (eg, based on power, modified vehicles)

And something I like - compulsary third party insurance.:2thumbsup

[FJRider]

Ok Ok, I've had sleep, and thunk on it, I'm not feeling the love for promoting Trackdays, I'll still suggest promoting Trackdays or something similar (Obstinate tart Arn't I? :bleh:)

However though, as there's a turn in the stat's showing rider error the campaign this year is aimed at this. BUT....



Track days that are not about top speed achieved, but about highway speed bike handling. For motorcyclists that have upgraded from smaller bikes. Or the born again biker that has not ridden for a few years and had learnt on older machines. And the city learner/comuter who needs practice at highway speeds.

(Practice of) Sudden avoidence of dangerous things on the road has a rather dramatic effect at highway speeds, rather than at 50/70 km'hr. Taking different lines through corners to improve rider skill/confidence makes for safer riders.

Safer riders I assume should be the end goal.

[dubshack]

Increase vehicle restrictions for young drivers (eg, based on power, modified vehicles)

And something I like - compulsary third party insurance.:2thumbsup

Vehicle restrictions should not just be on young drivers. It should be on new drivers no matter the age.
I would love to see a horsepower restriction applied to car drivers for the first few years. i.e. 100bhp max for the first few years. This gives them plenty of car options and it automatically reduces their 0-60 time which increases the amount of time it takes for them to get out of control.

Moving away from motorcycles here though.

Third party, i agree :2thumbsup

As part of my process to set up the Superbike School here in NZ I have spoken to a lot of people and the response has been awesome. Support has come from a number of places and Star Insurance is one of those that are supporting us 110%. They are looking at a number of options if the school has been attended as they see the benefits of the world leading training organisation being here in NZ.
The biggest challenge for ACC is that they should not force people to attend a school as the push back on the coaches would be huge. The worst students that we have at a school are those that did not pay for it. Jounalists for example who are on a freebie because their boss sent them can be aweful or the smart arse kid whose Dad has paid.
Give the benefits, savings etc to those that have invested in themselves. This then brings me back to my point from an earlier post of how do you certify who can train. What we teach at CSS will be different from what somebody else teaches and I would like to bet that what we teach is nothing like any NZ standards training course would like us to teach. What we teach is all proven and has the technology to back it up. 150,000 students worldwide and this year alone we should train between 12-15000 people not including the private training for the Marine Corps in the USA. We save lives for a living and I would love for it to be compulsory for every rider to attend at least the first level of what we teach. Not practical but it would save lives and reduce the accident rate. I would gaurantee that.

[dubshack]

Track days that are not about top speed achieved, but about highway speed bike handling. For motorcyclists that have upgraded from smaller bikes. Or the born again biker that has not ridden for a few years and had learnt on older machines. And the city learner/comuter who needs practice at highway speeds.

(Practice of) Sudden avoidence of dangerous things on the road has a rather dramatic effect at highway speeds, rather than at 50/70 km'hr. Taking different lines through corners to improve rider skill/confidence makes for safer riders.

Safer riders I assume should be the end goal.

Yes but who is training the people at track days.
Practice make permanent and if you are doing the wrong things then this does not help.

[FJRider]

Yes but who is training the people at track days.
Practice make permanent and if you are doing the wrong things then this does not help.

If the end result is safer motorcyclists, funding (or partial funding) for qualified instructors could be gained. Fees still may be required by participants, but end result would be (seen to be) worth it.

Even a simple "follow the leader" circuits, behind an experienced rider, showing correct/incorrect lines, weaving through cones at highway speeds to gain confidence at changing directions on the highway.

Even a simple braking test can improve a bikers abilitys. Awareness of correct following distances ... and why, by practical demonstration ... must be good.

Simple mistakes you can make on the road can kill you ... or kill a mate. Or cause you a lot of pain. If only in the wallet.

[Genestho]

There is an idea in the pipeline, involving two specific points raised in this thread, regarding training - but I'm not allowed to talk about it online, which I respect because it would suck if we don't pull it off, and I've raised hopes.

Hopefully I can expand on this later in the year, if there's some movement and confirmation on the idea - I imagine it would have full support within the Motorcycling community!!! But because groups like this are regional, and if there are any groups similar - I'm not aware they're functioning, it would be small scale.

[FJRider]

What some may not realise ... better rider riding skills CAN make(let) you go faster... but dont tell ACC.

Better lines make better times.

[Rayray401]

So... is this going to raise our ACC levys again? cos i remember 3 years back when rego only cost 250. its 320 now.

[nigela]

There are 2 "have a go" days booked in this coming seasons Bike Rider Magazine Summer Series. the first one on 30 January at Manfeild and the second on 20 March at Taupo. these are being run on a similar stye to the Moto TT days (at the request of one of the insurance companies).
There will be volunteer competition riders riding amongst the slow classes to see who needs advice/help and people will be able to get themselves checked out by an experienced rider.
We ran this concept on our Manfeild round last season (back then it was still called the Pacific Summer Series) and the only incidents all day were when competition licenced riders only, were on the track.
One of the common feed backs I got was that road only riders did discover just how much they didn't know.
Improvements can be made to a riders ability with out having to have highly qualified, spelt expensive, instructors.
I think schools like the one being set up at Hampton downs are going to have an important part in rider training, but I would caution against asking it to be compulsory for all riders to go through this type of training.
If you make it too costly or too hard to get your licence, you will just get more unlicenced riders.
This is proven with the current car licencing system. People are screaming to have the minumum age for a licence raised, to fix the accident rate, while totally ignoring the fact that a major amount of the accidents are from unlicenced drivers.

[Genestho]

One of the common feed backs I got was that road only riders did discover just how much they didn't know.
Improvements can be made to a riders ability with out having to have highly qualified, spelt expensive, instructors.

I no doubt agree, but would ACC promote this? I can but ask.
I think schools like the one being set up at Hampton downs are going to have an important part in rider training, but I would caution against asking it to be compulsory for all riders to go through this type of training.
There is no request to ask anybody to do this compulsary. It's merely promoting the idea, if accepted. And another idea making training accessable and accepted by youth, which I will not be discussing here.If you make it too costly or too hard to get your licence, you will just get more unlicenced riders.
Yup!This is proven with the current car licencing system. People are screaming to have the minumum age for a licence raised, to fix the accident rate, while totally ignoring the fact that a major amount of the accidents are from unlicenced drivers.

Hmmm. While I don't doubt unlicensed driver cause smashes....In fact i KNOW it...but if you're comparing youth...and if you go back a few posts, raising the license age won't be enough - thus there are intiatives up for discussion. Unlicensed drivers are a whole different kettle of fish.

"Last year, young drivers were involved in around 37 per cent of all fatal road crashes and 37 per cent of all serious injury crashes. Crashes blamed on young drivers resulted in 122 deaths and 800 serious injuries in 2008. The social cost of these crashes was approximately $1.1 billion.
New Zealand's 15 to 17-year-olds have the highest road death rate in the OECD. For each young at-fault driver killed, 1.3 other road users also
die. Most people killed by young drivers are their own passengers, their peers. This is a key reason why road crashes are the single greatest killer of 15 to 24-year-olds, and the leading cause of their permanent injury. It also largely explains why our young people have a road fatality rate of 21 per 100,000 population — double New Zealand's overall rate. They are some of the world's youngest licensed drivers."

[Genestho]

So... is this going to raise our ACC levys again? cos i remember 3 years back when rego only cost 250. its 320 now.
Your levys are paying out for smashes under a no blame policy. Enjoy!

Each person killed on our roads, costs the economy, the taxpayers just over 3 mill per person in monetry terms.
Perhaps even including budget blow outs.

[Pussy]

Good on you for your tireless crusade, T.G.W!
Upskilling is a good thing.
For all riders' sakes, I really hope something goes ahead

[Genestho]

Good on you for your tireless crusade, T.G.W!
Upskilling is a good thing.
For all riders' sakes, I really hope something goes ahead

Dunno about tireless mate!!! I just want to use my situation to help the community which has given me so much over the years!

[Genestho]

Ok
So for you that had $20 bucks on ACC NOT promoting 'Trackdays' - you were right. :bleh:
This doesn't stop the BADD Team from endorcing 'Trackdays' to youth, in our own way, with youth sponsorship!

It is complicated. Certification NZTA, and OSH standards need to be inplace. And I haven't had enough time to do enough research on who has what going on! Not to say there's not an opening for this in the future either!

They did note down the CSS school, particularly when the Pentagon and US Marine Motorcyclist training were mentioned...so if you were to be interested in endorsement - you guys might want to look into NZTA certification? (If you haven't already)
I can't promise you anything though, it's not my jurisdiction.

Something GREAT that came out of the meeting was
I've got ACC looking into pulling out last years "Look out for Motorcyclists" Billboards for the BADD Rally. Particularly in Taupo, where the volume of traffic is high, and heading off to all StateHighways.

I've requested we get these back on Highways over the summer, but can't promise anything!

I relayed that even though this years campaign is aimed at encouraging rider responsibility, it works both ways!

Car drivers MUST learn to look out for Motorcyclists as well!

ACC have no probs getting the existing resources - billboards back out, but we need to pass this through district councils (urban) and Transit (Rural)

I have passed on promoting Hi Vis, as I'd like to see more info regarding reflector strips!

Also I will be promoting 4 zones of safety gear, in relation to abrasion resistance :bleh: For those that wish to learn.

And we are waiting on the marketing team to sort out Ride Right Ride Safe DVD's to be you tubed for instant satisfaction, if you're already on the internet, this would make sense to me - for those that wish to learn.