Learner conditions - discussion and poll

[MSTRS]

The proposed changes don't seem to be going to happen anytime soon, but eventually something will have to be done. Hopefully there will be a chance for public submissions and maybe this thread/poll could prove useful. I've made the poll multi choice and suggested some alternatives to the current conditions attached to the learner licence. I'm not interested in the 'restricted' stage for this purpose.

[Danae]

So far what we have is pretty reasonable, however I find 70k a bit rude. At least biff that up to 80k, i know that several motorists travel at this speed on the motorway. they don't get hassled, just overtaken.

There are ways to get around the city and to avoid the motorway, if you get caught doing over 70k cos you took the motorway then it's entirely your problem.

This morning I took the motorway and hung behind a small truck that was doing 70-80k. It was so cruisy and nice. Doing 70k only really gets dodge when you're around spaghetti junction and multiple on/off ramps. Cages will do stupid things to overtake you to get to the offramps, or use the "exit only" lane to get around you.

All the other conditions are fine, I'm pretty sure learners shouldn't jump straight onto a bike that's more than 250cc, and it's pretty easy to avoid riding after 10pm.

[Jonno.]

I agree 80-90 is a better idea.

[SMOKEU]

How is it fair that someone on a 1L can legally drive a WRX STI but someone on a 6L can't legally ride anything bigger than a 250cc?

[Hitcher]

The curfew rule has amused me. It's intent is to stop young people going out at night an hooning around. I can see no other purpose for it. The night doesn't get any darker (apart from mid summer in Southland) after 10:30 at night and, with less traffic around, it should be safer to ride during that period than at other times.

When I am King, caravans and campervans will only be allowed out between 11:00pm and 5:00am. Seriously.

[hospitalfood]

i voted no pillions, no speed restriction, yes L plate, yes hp limit.
any more seems to nanna but im open to discusion

[Danae]

How is it fair that someone on a 1L can legally drive a WRX STI but someone on a 6L can't legally ride anything bigger than a 250cc?

That's true but how many youtube vids are there of noobs getting on large capacity bikes, spinning up the back wheel, dropping, crashing and/or highsiding because they couldn't handle the power? Apply too much acceleration in a car and you don't exactly fall over.


...with less traffic around, it should be safer to ride during that period than at other times.

This is true, I've pillioned in the early hours and it is much nicer.

[hospitalfood]

here's a thought, can we make all learners prospects ? have them make full licence riders cups of tea etc.............

[Jonno.]

The curfew rule has amused me. It's intent is to stop young people going out at night an hooning around. I can see no other purpose for it. The night doesn't get any darker (apart from mid summer in Southland) after 10:30 at night and, with less traffic around, it should be safer to ride during that period than at other times.

When I am King, caravans and campervans will only be allowed out between 11:00pm and 5:00am. Seriously.

It's to do with people being tired.

[Ooky]

no restrictions but have to wear one of these bear attack proof suits:woohoo:
http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/images/hs/hs1558762_1.jpg

[sunhuntin]

i voted for wearing the L, no pillions and HP restrictions.
the rest should all be scrapped. i dont see how one is meant to prepare for the restricted test, which involves open road riding, when the 70k rule is meant to keep people off open roads.

[Jonno.]

Testers realise this.

[ManDownUnder]

Display the "L" so others are aware you're new on the contraption and give consideration as required.
No Pillions - putting yourself in denager is enough while learning
HP restriction - them big bikes'll kill ya in an "OH SHIT" heartbeat

[Danae]

Open road riding in the restricted test: Just a bit of motorway, isn't it? And in the road code i believe it says the 70kph restriction is ignored in the restricted test

[FROSTY]

Heres the perfect world according to old fart FROSTY.
1) at age 14 a person can get a scooter licence for a sub 3hp scooter
2) at age 16 a person can get a Learner licence to ride a sub 35hp motorcycle with no capacity limit.
3)For a MINIMUM period of 3 months riders to be restricted to travelling at 70km/h. and must ride at times and places appropriate for that speed.The rider must at all times display a yellow L plate. No pillions.
4) End of 3 months a person can be competancy tested and if they pass the test are then able to ride at up to 100km/h on a cycle of up to 35hp must display at all times a blue R plate and cannot carry passengers.
5) open test --end of 6 months rider must sit a compentancy test if the pass can ride any cycle.
6)Any rider riding outside of their licence requirements is instantly dropped one licence level.
7) a car learners licence holder under 25 is restricted to cars of 1598cc or less carurated or fuel injected. NON turbo charged. OR turbo charged petrol of 1000cc or smaller. OR diesel vehicles of 2.2l or less. They must at ALL times be accompanied by a front seat passenger with a full licence.
8) On demostating driving skills they may get a restricted licence with the same capacity limit.

For car drivers the capacity limit is the ONLY way to regulate as there are just too many models on the market

[FROSTY]

Open road riding in the restricted test: Just a bit of motorway, isn't it? And in the road code i believe it says the 70kph restriction is ignored in the restricted test
show me where it says that in the road code --gwan I dare ya

[Owl]

show me where it says that in the road code --gwan I dare ya

If he won't or can't, then I'll oblige!

Part 3 marked *

http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/roadcode/motorcycle-road-code/practical-tests/restricted-practical-riding-test.html

[BiK3RChiK]

Frosty has the right idea I reckon...

I think the 70km/hr restriction is a joke! Following an L-plater this morning in my work vehicle, cars were stacked up behind said L-plater and 'tutor/companion rider' and were following WAY too close and passing and squashing in between L-plater and said 'tutor/companion rider'. I backed way off because to me it was a massive recipe for disaster for the motorcyclists. My turn-off was coming up soon, so I lost sight of them from then on.

My 0.10c....

[Neon]

show me where it says that in the road code --gwan I dare ya

I'll do better than that. Here is the piece of legislation that confirms it is fine (http://legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/1999/0100/latest/DLM281347.html?search=ts_all@act@bill@regulation_l icensing_resel&p=1#DLM281347) -

"Conditions of learner licence
(1) The holder of a learner licence of a particular class is authorised to drive a vehicle to which that class of licence relates if the holder complies with the following conditions:
(a) The holder must not drive the vehicle (unless driving a motorcycle, moped, or an all-terrain vehicle) unless the holder is accompanied in the vehicle by a person who—
(i) Holds, and has held for at least 2 years, a full licence of a class that authorises that person to drive that vehicle; and
(ii) Is in charge of the vehicle; and
(iii) Is seated in the front passenger seat or, if there is no front passenger seat available, is seated as close as is practicable to the driver; and
(b) in the case of a Class 1L licence, where the holder is driving a car, the holder must display on the vehicle an “L” plate as specified in clause 66:
(c) in the case of a Class 1L or Class 6L licence, where the holder is riding a moped, the holder—
(i) must display on the vehicle an “L” plate as specified in clause 66; and
(ii) must not drive between the hours of 10 pm and 5 am; and
(iii) must not carry another person on the moped or in a sidecar attached to the moped:
(d) in the case of a Class 6L licence, where the holder is riding a motorcycle, the holder—
(i) must display on the vehicle an “L” plate as specified in clause 66; and
(ii) must not—
(A) drive between the hours of 10 pm and 5 am; or
(B) drive at a speed exceeding 70 km/h, unless taking the restricted licence test for a Class 6R licence under clause 48(5); or
(C) drive a motorcycle that has a total piston displacement exceeding 250 cm3; or
(D) carry another person on the motorcycle or in a sidecar attached to the motorcycle
(2) The conditions imposed under this clause are in addition to any conditions imposed on the licence holder under Part 9."



Any cop that tells you otherwise can stick it. :bash:

[Neon]

I have to say that I'm inclined to agree wholeheartedly with Frosty on this one. The 70km/h restriction is included - in much the same way as the requirement for learner car drivers to have a 'supervisor' - to encourage a skill base to be built gradually and sensibly over a period of time.

Why do new riders 'expect' to be able to ride anywhere they like at any time? How is it any different to the process learning to drive a car? The main difference is that the stakes are higher. Bikes are unforgiving like that.

When I got my 6L, even with 12 years of driving experience behind me I had enough to worry about just controlling the fucking bike, let alone worrying about the traffic around me. I can't even begin to imagine how total noobs to the road can process all that information. So yeah, I think a 70km/h limit is reasonable on a 6L.

People learn at different speeds, may be more or less physically capable in terms of handling the machine, and could be well ready to ride at higher speeds at a time in advance of their license period being completed - and you would hope they would be.

However, you only have to do it once. Suck it up. Do your time, wear your L plate proudly, focus on developing your skills (it's frightening how many riders of many years 'experience' cannot handle low speed manoeuvres and carpark drills competently) and then move on when the time comes. :niceone:

Until there is a more holistic testing system that rewards training and true skill-based assessment (and is therefore not time dependent), the system is what it is. :whistle:

Oh, and blatantly ignoring the law ain't gonna to nowt other than confirm that bikers are a nuisance on the road and should be legislated off the road once and for all. If you think you're 'fighting the power' you are, honestly, kidding yo' self. :pokey:

[CookMySock]

+ severe penalties for speeding or dangerous driving for learners.

Steve

[davebullet]

The curfew rule has amused me. It's intent is to stop young people going out at night an hooning around. I can see no other purpose for it. The night doesn't get any darker (apart from mid summer in Southland) after 10:30 at night and, with less traffic around, it should be safer to ride during that period than at other times.

When I am King, caravans and campervans will only be allowed out between 11:00pm and 5:00am. Seriously.

No no, you've got it all wrong... It's there to protect the learner rider from ice in the middle of winter. We all know at 5:01am the ice has melted and you can cane it around all corners without risk.

[Tink]

i voted no pillions, no speed restriction, yes L plate, yes hp limit.
any more seems to nanna but im open to discusion

didn't quite get the more than one option doh


That's true but how many youtube vids are there of noobs getting on large capacity bikes, spinning up the back wheel, dropping, crashing and/or highsiding because they couldn't handle the power? Apply too much acceleration in a car and you don't exactly fall over.



This is true, I've pillioned in the early hours and it is much nicer.

I would like to learn at night... when I was 15 learning on the motorway never happened... my dad had no prob putting me in a cage at 15 and a bike at 3... on the roads... experience comes with doing!


Display the "L" so others are aware you're new on the contraption and give consideration as required.
No Pillions - putting yourself in denager is enough while learning
HP restriction - them big bikes'll kill ya in an "OH SHIT" heartbeat

L PLATES no matter how noob they look are important.. good call....JOHN WRIGHT... a great teacher in my eyes from London stated kiwi cages can't drive a car while comlimenting bikes... I tend to agree.....

SOOOOOOOOOOOO

5 questions in the NZ Rode Code for CAGES learning to drive ABOUT HOW TO REACT TO BIKES, WATCH FOR BIKES, BEHAVE AROUND BIKES, BIKE RULES, AND BIKE REACTIONS... ETC... PLUS. They are not the only ones on the road, paying road taxes... truck drivers...etc... included :)

[PirateJafa]

How is it fair that someone on a 1L can legally drive a WRX STI but someone on a 6L can't legally ride anything bigger than a 250cc?

What are you, an idiot? A 1L license carries DIFFERENT restrictions instead, like the requirement to have a 2year+ fully licensed passenger.

You, on the other hand, can ride your bike on your 6L all by your lonesome. Gain on one hand, lose on the other - it balances out.

[retro asian]

I think that 400cc is a decent sized limit for learners. e.g a Yamaha Dragstar 400 would've been a mean bike to start off with, I probably wouldn't have ditched it in 10 months, like I did with my VL250.

A 400 doesn't have too much power, would be a bit smoother to ride than a 250 and is more practical for touring and open road speeds etc.

[PirateJafa]

I think that 400cc is a decent sized limit for learners. e.g a Yamaha Dragstar 400 would've been a mean bike to start off with, I probably wouldn't have ditched it in 10 months, like I did with my VL250.

A 400 doesn't have too much power, would be a bit smoother to ride than a 250 and is more practical for touring and open road speeds etc.

Maybe a 250cc 4cyl, 400cc twin limit.

I don't think that making bikes that can exceed the open-road speed limit in their first gear alone is a particularly wise idea. 250cc is enough to be forgiving for a learner.

[yungatart]

Can we please get rid of the anomaly that allows people on a car licence to ride an underpowered scooter?
They have no idea of the hazards, no training, no two wheeled road craft and are a huge danger to themselves and others, puttering along, as they do, right up your arse in your blind spot.

[FROSTY]

well Ill be ferked--THERE IS exception when sitting a restricted.
Frosty fucked it up.
holey cow so did the senior cop
Now that makes totally NO sense at all.
I stand behind the whole 70km/h limit thing
But thats insanity.
How can you possibly demonstrate competence at something you have never done?

Incidently I disagree with yungatart-Lets think a bit beyond the here and now for a minute.
If you can get a SCOOTER licence at 15 but a bike at 16 and a car at 17doesn't it stand to reason that there will a whole generation of kids who have done time on bikes. Follow that through to conclusion. There will then be an entire generation of DRIVERS who are scooter/bike aware. Now as annoying as scooters can be again its another bunch of drivers that are a bit more bike aware -for a little while

[MSTRS]

I stand behind the whole 70km/h limit thing
But thats insanity.
How can you possibly demonstrate competence at something you have never done?



As I said in the 'other' thread...

The problem with this is that to gain a 6L, all you have to do is prove a modicum of bike control in a carpark at walking speed and pass a road rules scratchy. You are then allowed to join the traffic at up to 70kph. Where was the test that you could handle that?

[MSTRS]

If you can get a SCOOTER licence at 15 but a bike at 16 and a car at 17doesn't it stand to reason that there will a whole generation of kids who have done time on bikes. Follow that through to conclusion. There will then be an entire generation of DRIVERS who are scooter/bike aware. Now as annoying as scooters can be again its another bunch of drivers that are a bit more bike aware -for a little while

Now this has a lot of merit.

I'd go a step further and propose the following...

If it's a 2 wheeled vehicle, then a 6-class licence is mandatory.
Conditions to start at -
1. Display L*
2. No pillions
3. HP restriction
4. Speed/Road restriction
5. Hours restriction

Split the stages for motorcycles into 4 -
1/. Learner: Day-glo orange L*, All conditions, 3 month minimum
2/. Advanced? Learner: Yellow L*, Conditions 1/2/3, 3 month minimum
3/. Restricted: Conditions 2/3, 12 months reduceable to 6 months with successful completion of suitable rider's course.
4/. Open

Ideally, I'd like to see an increased HP rating at the restricted level, but that would be overly fussy.

[FROSTY]

Something to concider VERY carefully here folks.
To be thought through from begining to end not just in relation to your own personal wants here and now.
We are a minority group and not one with a lot of political clout.
evidence of this is just how effective the cheescutter campaighn has been (apologies to all those involved)
We are also a group that statistically cost the country a lot in the health sector.
My arguement is that given how little poiitical clout we have and how those with clout are on the whole ANTI motorcycles or at best neutral towards us Then any changes to the law will be most likely MORE rather than less restrictive.
It can't happen you say? Think about the "anti smacking " law.
Not in this discussion taking ANY stand on this subject however it was a decision made by politicians and with 78% of the voting population against it. that law has been in place for 2 years (sorry not sure of exact time) now.
Do you see a refferendum being held to change the lbike licencing laws back?
Quite honestly if I was a non riding politician Id be influenced more by those whose opinions I have faith in(minister of heaalth) or I'd be voting in a way that gave me something to trade off with.
I feel that if the spotlight was put on bikes carte blanc changes would occur to the licencing system and they would be conciderably more restrictive.
1)ALL two wheeled petrol driven vehicles must pass compliance and must carry a current WOF.
Effect--no more cheap scooters and most likely an increase in rego (acc costs on them)
2)due to the high accident rate amongst riders in their first 12 months or riding all L plate riders restricted to bikes of 125cc or less (in britain its 125cc so a good chance of us following them) and less than 20hp
-look at overseas restrictions before saying it can't happen.
3) all L plate riders restricted to 50km/h at all times.
--Think about it --a catchcry amoungs the people-"speed kills" so reduce the speed reduce the accidents.
4)restricted licence holders restricted to 70km/h
refer above for the logic behind this

So I argue we keep our collective mouths shut and hope we continue to fly below the political radar.

[MSTRS]

Something to concider VERY carefully here folks.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I argue we keep our collective mouths shut and hope we continue to fly below the political radar.

Oh, I think we are most definitely ON that radar. Proposals to adopt the Oz system are in the works as part of a general revamp of the Transport Act. Some of us were lead to believe that these proposals would be before the house prior to the election. Didn't happen. But it will. Just think if we could get Allan Kirk behind us...for a change:msn-wink:

[Milts]

What about having different conditions depending on other licenses you have? For example, I have had my full cage license for two years, been driving for 5, and think it would be perfectly reasonable for me to drive on the motorway at 100ks and after 10 pm/before 5 am. However, if I were 15 and had just got my bike license and had no other road experience, these conditions suddenly seem more reasonable to me.

IMO it's actually a pretty damn complicated issue. Maybe we should just have a bunch of (very strict) tests which people can sit any time, and their performance determines their conditions?

[slofox]

.

When I am King, caravans and campervans will only be allowed out between 11:00pm and 5:00am. Seriously.

Add bloody great trucks to that and I'll vote for ya...

[allycatz]

'L' Plates followed by 'R' plates...for cages and bikes