ACC - Why automatically renew licences?

[p.dath]

Another thread I'm sure will be un-popular.

I was thinking about the large number of riders who return to the bike after having a break for a long time, sometimes decades.

And then I was thinking, why do our licences re-new after 10 years without having to do anything?

What about the idea of having people attend some kind of "re-education" class before they can re-new their licence? A bit like how you have to re-new your PADI diving certificate every now and then.

And perhaps if you don't do some type of re-education your licence simply suspends until you do. Then if they don't ride for 30 years you can be reasonably confident that they'll attend some kind of training.

And for those who ride all the time - what harm will it do?

And so you say, they'll just ride with a suspended licence. I'm sure some will. But I suspect most will want insurance - and you can't get that without a licence for on-road use (and least, you can't get a pay out).
Also they are more likely to get nasty fines if stopped by the Police.

So what say all of you? Another bad idea, or it has some merit?

[Str8 Jacket]

Why do birrrrds suddenly appear?

[boomer]

do the voices come to you whilst you're awake or asleep?

[p.dath]

do the voices come to you whilst you're awake or asleep?

Haha. Its sometimes difficult listening to just one out of the crowd.

[Squiggles]

Has some merit

[yachtie10]

Of course it has merit. he "other" thread did as well

This has already tried with older people and was removed by the labour government becuase it was too stressful for some old folks. IMHO should never have been removed

The main issue is cost how do people who dont have a good income afford this?
maybe the poor dont deserve to have a licence


Please remember I do tend to play devils advocate a bit
:headbang:

[Squiggles]

The main issue is cost how do people who dont have a good income afford this?

They probably wont be able to afford to drive soon anyway.

[nosebleed]

As much as I was gearing up to sling shit, as one these returned riders I see merit.

At least a RRRS session

[firefighter]

I think you can shove that idea up your arse.

In the last few years i've obtained my class 2, 4 and 6. On top of all that training and testing i'd have to do another fucken course next year because that's when my licence expires.

Even though my my newest licence was issued last september, it still expires next year due to a retarded fucken system.

So, for those of you who agree with this, I would need to do a RRRS, and a car AND truck refresher.........I'm not a fucken millionaire.

So no, the idea can suck my fucken dags.

I 'm fucken sick of your fucken attempt to control bikers. As far as i'm concerned, your not one of us.

Your a fuckwit ACC clown trying to ruin and suck the fun out of biking. Piss off. Take your bullshit wrap the world up in cotton wool crap elsewhere.

I for one, enjoy my freedom and riding my bike wearing what I please, when I please and think there is enough rules and laws already.

You have to be the offspring of Sue Bradford. Tell your mum she's a fugly bitch for me.

[Hitcher]

What has license renewal got to do with ACC?

[ManDownUnder]

Why do birrrrds suddenly appear?

I knew it... you DO love me!!!!!

[ManDownUnder]

What has license renewal got to do with ACC?

Oh shut up - take your common sense somewhere it's wanted. This is KB.

Sorry d.path - as you were...

[Squiggles]

What has license renewal got to do with ACC?

:clap: License says you're allowed to drive, but if you're a shite driver and munt yaself then it costs them. Make it harder to obtain & keep them i say. Dont have as many problems with changes to the roadcode too that way :apint:

[Str8 Jacket]

What has license renewal got to do with ACC?

Whaaaaat's love got to do, got to do with it?!

[Hitcher]

These p.doff ACC threads are certainly giving me second-hand emotions.

[p.dath]

Here goes, my first multi-quote attempt:


...
The main issue is cost how do people who dont have a good income afford this?
maybe the poor dont deserve to have a licence


That is a toughy. People shouldn't be excluded from riding because of their income, but we also don't want people getting unnecessarily hurt, and if more education at the right points in time can help reduce the nations ACC bill for motorcycle accidents ...

Call it targeted education.

Anyway, it was just an idea I was throwing out there.


Even though my my newest licence was issued last september, it still expires next year due to a retarded fucken system.

Had that happen myself this year. Had to sit an exam for a licence class just two weeks before my licence expired. I had to go back and fill in exactly same form to renew my licence as I did to do the other licence class. Was not happy either.


What has license renewal got to do with ACC?

I was considering the returning riders who figure highly in accident figures, and are likely to figure more highly due to the aging population shift, and how to help them reduce the medical expense that ACC incurs.

It would be a way of helping ensure they got some education to help them back into riding safely.

[Hitcher]

I was considering the returning riders who figure highly in accident figures, and are likely to figure more highly due to the aging population shift, and how to help them reduce the medical expense that ACC incurs.

It would be a way of helping ensure they got some education to help them back into riding safely.

Very few motorcycle riders set out with the deliberate intention of falling off and hurting themselves, this is particularly true of "older" riders, whoever they are.

"Returning riders" being more at risk than others is a statistical manipulation. ACC and other agencies like NZTA have data sets with limited precision -- they can't distinguish between motorcycle types, particularly scroters, so I doubt that they have little meaningful data about age vs experience for motorcyclists other than data collected from accidents reported to ACC.

Unless the bar is going to be set substantially higher in terms of driver/rider competence, whether for licensing or compulsory insurance purposes, people will not seek road skills "education" unless they see value in it. Road transport officials are passionately against increasing driver/rider skills training because they believe that that makes drivers/riders overconfident. Compulsory third-party insurance isn't likely to be a goer at any time in the near future either.

Hypothetical speculative nonsense serves little value.

[sleemanj]

The idea, as has been said, isn't worthless.

In aviation, every 2 years you need a check ride, a Biennial Flight Review, even if you only fly a single seat microlight, you need a BFR.

As the name suggests, it's not a test, it's a review, you go for a flight with an instructor who will have a look at how your flying, maybe give you some advice, and see if there is anything you want some help with.

For road users, 2 years would be a bit overkill. But 10 years might not be a bad idea.

How it's implemented is another question.

[p.dath]

"Returning riders" being more at risk than others is a statistical manipulation. ACC and other agencies like NZTA have data sets with limited precision -- they can't distinguish between motorcycle types, particularly scroters, so I doubt that they have little meaningful data about age vs experience for motorcyclists other than data collected from accidents reported to ACC.


Granted, when you have a raw data set, and an opinion already in mind, you search for statistics that support your view.

ACC do have statistics for engine size, so they can distinguish crudely motorcycle type.

And they certainly collect statistics about age. I would think you are correct about experience. I don't think they collect any data in this area.

I can see however you are firmly of the opinion that all of their statistics are created with a view to getting rid of motorcyclists.

Perhaps you could present some statistics to support an alternative view?



Unless the bar is going to be set substantially higher in terms of driver/rider competence, whether for licensing or compulsory insurance purposes, people will not seek road skills "education" unless they see value in it

Which is why I suggested having an education session at the ten year re-licensing period. Not much different to the education phase when you sit your learners licence (aka, education is effectively compulsory).

[prettybillie]

Has some merit

I agree....my Dad hasn't been on a bike in 20 years and is thinking of getting one. He has no idea of the power of some of these bikes out there now....

[Taz]

So he should not get an insanely powerful bike. Duh. But even a powerful bike can be ridden sensibly.

[Hitcher]

I can see however you are firmly of the opinion that all of their statistics are created with a view to getting rid of motorcyclists.

Perhaps you could present some statistics to support an alternative view?

An alternative view to what? It's the regulators who have the "official" statistics and the motivation to get rid of motorcyclists. Only a holocaust denier would postulate that motorcycling is safe. It isn't. That's why I enjoy it.

People would still ride motorcycles even if there was no ACC. I would. Hell, I'd even sign a waiver saying that I'd self insure and ACC wouldn't have to cough up a cent in the event of me banging myself up, or worse. Nanny State, however, has a different world view.

[NighthawkNZ]

People would still ride motorcycles even if there was no ACC. I would. Hell, I'd even sign a waiver saying that I'd self insure and ACC wouldn't have to cough up a cent in the event of me banging myself up, or worse. Nanny State, however, has different world view.


I would sign the waiver... where do I sign... where do I sign... where do I sign... :headbang:

And I wouldn't mind that they will still take ACC from my fuel...

[cheshirecat]

If there are to be courses they should be meaningful. I'm a returning biker after a 20 year gap. Bikes are faster yes but they are also now considerably safer. Two of the best courses I ever did were a UK Police bike course as a teenager and some years as a London despatch rider. I use the lessons learnt everytime I ride. There should be incentives not law. If you pass certain courses ACC goes down, along with insurance and perhaps you could so 120 on motorways etc etc

[Hitcher]

I agree....my Dad hasn't been on a bike in 20 years and is thinking of getting one. He has no idea of the power of some of these bikes out there now....

He'll get the idea as soon as he gets on.

There's no requirement to wring the shit out of a bike. Even a nuts-on-fire ZX10 or GSXR can be nerdled along -- they don't explode if they're not wound out to the limiter at every gear change. Indeed most have great throttle response and are lovely predictable things to ride. I would suggest that they are safer to ride than the kangaroo clutch, sticky carb, spaghetti framed, brakeless wonders that your dad and his ilk rode in their youth.

It's not the bike's fault if people fall off them and get hurt.

[MacD]

I agree....my Dad hasn't been on a bike in 20 years and is thinking of getting one. He has no idea of the power of some of these bikes out there now....

One thing you will learn as you get older is that people don't actually get more stupid with age, in fact exactly the opposite.

As Hitcher points out modern bikes are generally much easier to ride than bikes of 20 years ago, despite their peak power (which most people never actually use).

He's also unlikely to post complaining about gravel on roads, cold tyres, white lines, and all the other completely expected issues associated with riding that people constantly complain about on KB.

[Taz]

It's not the bike's fault if people fall off them and get hurt.

Bullshit! It's gotta be! You trying to tell me it's my fault? how? Are you crazy?

[Pedrostt500]

Of course it has merit. he "other" thread did as well

This has already tried with older people and was removed by the labour government becuase it was too stressful for some old folks. IMHO should never have been removed

The main issue is cost how do people who dont have a good income afford this?
maybe the poor dont deserve to have a licence


Please remember I do tend to play devils advocate a bit
:headbang:

What we have Poor people just Driving about, my god how dear they!!.

[Genestho]

So what say all of you? Another bad idea, or it has some merit?
:msn-wink: Has merit.

[Pedrostt500]

What about a graduated motor cycle licence system, rather than totaly remove some ones bike licence, allow them to keep it, but hve may be 3 or 4 catorgories, all power to weight ratio, segrigated, to move up the classes, you have to sit courses, with the relivant practical and theory, lessons involved, ie track days etc.
But how do you tell that some one has not been riding in the last ten yrs?, you can't use bike ownership records, as they may own a bike but it is for some one else to ride, or not own a bike but ride some one elses.

[tigertim20]

Another thread I'm sure will be un-popular.

I was thinking about the large number of riders who return to the bike after having a break for a long time, sometimes decades.

And then I was thinking, why do our licences re-new after 10 years without having to do anything?

What about the idea of having people attend some kind of "re-education" class before they can re-new their licence? A bit like how you have to re-new your PADI diving certificate every now and then.

And perhaps if you don't do some type of re-education your licence simply suspends until you do. Then if they don't ride for 30 years you can be reasonably confident that they'll attend some kind of training.

And for those who ride all the time - what harm will it do?

And so you say, they'll just ride with a suspended licence. I'm sure some will. But I suspect most will want insurance - and you can't get that without a licence for on-road use (and least, you can't get a pay out).
Also they are more likely to get nasty fines if stopped by the Police.

So what say all of you? Another bad idea, or it has some merit?

I have been sayign for a long time that this should be done. its odd at 15 I got my learners, took about ten minutes to do the scratch test. restricted at 15 1/2, took about 20 minutes to do the drive. My full fairly soon after, which was less than a 30 minute drive.
so by 16-17 ish, I had my full licence, which means I am qualified to drive untill the mandatory retest at what, 85 I think it is?
so 1 hour of behaving = 68 years of safe driving? fuck off. I always thought every ten years, you should do say the restricted or full driving test again, can be helpful to know what bad habbits etc you have learnt through the complacency of everyday driving being a mundane chore.
I mean how many people follow the rules for indicating at roundabouts, or for lane changes? fuckall. and most of them dont even realise it.

[Pedrostt500]

Continued from above,

If some one gives away riding for more than 10 yrs, they just drop back a power to weight class, thus allowing them to come back to the fold with little drama, but seeing that after a 30 yr break they just can't go out and buy the latest, fastest rocket ship that money can buy, with out proving they have passed the relivant courses.

[Hitcher]

How many 50+ riders have you seen on sports thousands? Come on now, let's get some rationality into this age vs power nonsense.

[Pedrostt500]

How many 50+ riders have you seen on sports thousands? Come on now, let's get some rationality into this age vs power nonsense.

It has little to do with age vs power, its exsperience vs power, if the last riding exsperience was a 1980 XL250, in 1980, then that person decides to get the latest rocket ship, with out any form of understanding of how technology has changed in many ways regarding motor cycles in the intervening yrs, this tends to be a recipe for disaster.
Even what is seen as middle of the road power / weight ratioed bikes that are being produced now, are rocket ships in comparison to what was cutting edge 20 to 30 yrs ago.

[Swoop]

And then I was thinking, why do our licences re-new after 10 years without having to do anything?
Simply because the lifetime licence that we purchased was "sold down the road" by a previous gubbinment.
Without any compensation for the unused portion, either.

Do you remember the "little book" licence?

[rickstv]

I'm with hitcher on this one. I am now 58 years old. I got my full in 1969 by riding down the road, doing a u turn and returning to the cop on the side of the road who issued me a full licence on the spot. I gave up riding about 1976 and returned again last year with a 250cc bike.

I am old enough and wise enough to realise that a gixxer thou would kill me.
I think most of us older returning riders think along the same lines
Rick.

[firefighter]

so 1 hour of behaving = 68 years of safe driving? fuck off. I always thought every ten years, you should do say the restricted or full driving test again, can be helpful to know what bad habbits etc you have learnt through the complacency of everyday driving being a mundane chore.
I mean how many people follow the rules for indicating at roundabouts, or for lane changes? fuckall. and most of them dont even realise it.

So one test every 10 years is going to fix up them bad driving habits....... ? Tui

I can see all you same advocating people whining about the cost of these tests in a few years and the tax and ACC levies being charged......

You people really are suckers for punishment.

[The Stranger]

This has already tried with older people and was removed by the labour government becuase it was too stressful for some old folks.

Bullshit, it was an election bribe, pure and simple and labour never tried to hide that.
They had a simple philosophy. Stitch up the unemployed, the students and maori and they would stay in power. As national started courting some of these groups labour needed to find (buy) another so selected the oldies. It worked a treat for them.

[James Deuce]

What has license renewal got to do with ACC?
His Hobby Llama spoke to him in a dream.

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[The Stranger]

why do our licences re-new after 10 years without having to do anything?

So what say all of you? Another bad idea, or it has some merit?

I've said it before, at least make them do a scratch and win test. It could be fairly easily implemented using existing resources.

A driving practical driving test would be met with a LOT of resistance and would cost us a LOT of money.
Even in the city it would be difficult to implement. Small country towns and rural areas wouldn't have the demand for full time testing facilities. The logistics would be significant

[James Deuce]

I've said it before, at least make them do a scratch and win test. It could be fairly easily implemented using existing resources.

A driving practical driving test would be met with a LOT of resistance and would cost us a LOT of money.
Even in the city it would be difficult to implement. Small country towns and rural areas wouldn't have the demand for full time testing facilities. The logistics would be significant

They've just had to spend 70 million quid in the UK building test facilities that are compliant with the new EU test requirements for motorcycle license tests, all because they adopted the wording of the tests in its entirety. This means that learners have to do their tests at 31.2mph (50kph), obviously illegal in UK urban areas due to a 30 mph speed limit, and in quite confined spaces. At the same time the number of testing centres has dropped from 260 to 66 nationwide (only 44 running at present), so you have to ride a long way to your test on your 125 and then ride it home if you fail. (What the!?)

They have this vicious swerve test where you have to swerve around an object at 31.2mph and then stop quickly. Simulates a vehicle pullin gout suddenly. People are falling off and breaking bones in wet conditions, partly because of the complexity of the test and partly because of the lack of space. I reckon some experienced KBers would struggle with that one.

Governments so know how to do things right. I luv Gibbmints.

Isn't ACC a Gubbmint department?

[Gareth51]

Have licence 1,2,3,4,5,6 for over 40yrs
Hadn't owned a bike 40yrs,more likely to kill my self back then than now
Haven't driven a truck for over 30yrs ,but I might want to to-morrow

[tigertim20]

It has little to do with age vs power, its exsperience vs power, if the last riding exsperience was a 1980 XL250, in 1980, then that person decides to get the latest rocket ship, with out any form of understanding of how technology has changed in many ways regarding motor cycles in the intervening yrs, this tends to be a recipe for disaster.
Even what is seen as middle of the road power / weight ratioed bikes that are being produced now, are rocket ships in comparison to what was cutting edge 20 to 30 yrs ago.

The main mistake with this argument is simple, You are assuming that these people who havent ridden a bike for 25 years, have not driven, or been a passenger in any other type of vehicle for that time either, and thus have not seen the technologial advancements which have been made within the engineering and automotive sectors. Of course they fuckin have man!! jesus, they dont just hide under a rock for a quarter of a century! and they know this. One thing in common with a 1965 triumph, and a 2009 R1 ad everything inbetween is this: it will only go as fast as your right wrist tells it to. Anybody who's ever been on a bike knows this anyway.


So one test every 10 years is going to fix up them bad driving habits....... ? Tui

well I would say every 2-3 years, or less, but judging by your following comments, I doubt you would be a fan of that either. perhaps instead of pissing on plausible ideas, you could offer an even better alternative you have thought of? Im open to hearing it if you actually have something!I can see all you same advocating people whining about the cost of these tests in a few years and the tax and ACC levies being charged......

You people really are suckers for punishment.


I've said it before, at least make them do a scratch and win test. It could be fairly easily implemented using existing resources.

A driving practical driving test would be met with a LOT of resistance and would cost us a LOT of money.
Even in the city it would be difficult to implement. Small country towns and rural areas wouldn't have the demand for full time testing facilities. The logistics would be significant


scratch test could be viable, showing you actually remember the rules. neither of my folks could tell me how fast they can drive past a school bus, I just rang and asked them to check, and judging by some fucktards I see, many dont know any of the give way rules either, And dont even get me started on merging lanes, 99% of people dont have a fucking vlue what they are there for, and swear at you and threaten you etc when you use them exactly for their intended purpose!

[AlpinePossum]

Another thread I'm sure will be un-popular.
I was thinking about the large number of riders who return to the bike after having a break for a long time, sometimes decades.


Yip, I'm one of those.



And then I was thinking, why do our licences re-new after 10 years without having to do anything?

What about the idea of having people attend some kind of "re-education" class before they can re-new their licence?


Re-education? You sound like the Khmer Rouge!

So you think I just vanished and sat in a cupboard all the time I didn't own a motorbike?

No. I drove. Probably more different vehicles under more conditions in stranger places than you ever will.

I also got smashed up twice.

One ass hole came clean across a solid white line at me, and killed 3 of his passengers and so tore up his face he couldn't say why the hell he did it.

Another asshole did a U-turn in an SUV on a straight and level piece of road just in front of me. I was OK, but my family hurt pretty bad.

Since then I've been studying road safety like mad. Believe me, I've looked at the road code and test you have here. Nothing in there for me to learn.

What I do need is practice, practice practice. Muscle memory. The conscious mind is too slow. It's Good for strategic thinking and steering... but when the shit hits the fan... it's too slow.

Sure I was a better motorcyclist the first time round. I couldn't afford anything but a bike. I lived on the the thing. I commuted on it. I traveled longer distances than NZ has.

I bought a bike again for fun. I use the tin can to transport family and things. So I'm never going to be as practiced as I was the first time around.

As I mentioned in the thread on Cornering... I'm passionate about the idea of avoiding crashes. Travelling slow, looking and seeing it's clear is all well and Good. I was travelling slow (80-90kph) on a straight and level road. But reality sucks and fuckers can and do convert an all clear road into an SUV size roadblock.

If you want a campaign to reduce ACC premiums face up to the fact that 75% of the accidents are caused by the insulated idiots in tin cans. And even more cost is caused by those damn SUV's.

Better protective gear? Yeah, it'll help a bit. But let me assure you no leathers, no helmet makes a damn bit of difference if an SUV does anything quite that damn stupid.

The only thing that may save you is to rid yourself of that OH MY GOD, WHAT THE FUCK!?, I CAN'T BELIEVE IT! reaction that chews up the 2 seconds you have to avoid it.

If you want ACC to take an action targets older bikers... arrange low cost safe practice areas.

[James Deuce]

Y

If you want a campaign to reduce ACC premiums face up to the fact that 75% of the accidents are caused by the insulated idiots in tin cans. And even more cost is caused by those damn SUV's.



Depends who you talk to, but I think you'll find it's near enough a 50/50 split between "them" and "us".

Fundamentally, if you fall off by yourself, it is unlikely to be ruled no fault.

I do understand the irony of using Government stats, but no one else collects them and it is the data that all Government Depts use.;

From: http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf

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margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%;} @page Section1 {size:595.3pt 841.9pt; margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt; mso-header-margin:35.4pt; mso-footer-margin:35.4pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0cm; mso-para-margin-right:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0cm; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} </style> <![endif]--> [I]Who was at fault? <o></o>
Motorcyclist fault in crashes 2003-2007 Single vehicle, no rider fault identified 3%

Multi vehicle, primary responsibility 25%

Single vehicle, rider at fault 26%

Multi vehicle, no rider fault identified 39%

Multi vehicle, partial responsibility 7%

[firefighter]

So one test every 10 years is going to fix up them bad driving habits....... ? Tui

well I would say every 2-3 years, or less, but judging by your following comments, I doubt you would be a fan of that either. perhaps instead of pissing on plausible ideas, you could offer an even better alternative you have thought of? Im open to hearing it if you actually have something!I can see all you same advocating people whining about the cost of these tests in a few years and the tax and ACC levies being charged......

You people really are suckers for punishment.

Pissing on ideas without my own solution?

I did no such thing, I thought I was quite clear in the fact that I feel it's actually working fine as it is......and that no changes really need to be made.

I'm under enough scrutiny with my driving every day, without having to do a re-test.

Why are we so compelled to control each other? Just fucken live your life without adding more goddam rules.

Let Darwin take care of the rest.

It's bad enough that there's no cool fireworks anymore!

I did'nt realise there was such a huge skill fade with drivers that this need to be implemented.....hav'nt seen one statstic to back up anything either.

Just a whole lot of people jumping on a band-wagon because they can all drive/know the rules so much better than everyone else.

[The Stranger]

Why are we so compelled to control each other? Just fucken live your life without adding more goddam rules.


Personally I draw the line at killing or maiming others.
By all means kill yourself, that's entirely your business and I won't interfere in that one at all.
Cars *frequently* kill or maim others, so my personal view, having a few rules/conditions aimed at reducing carnage is not necessarily a bad thing, though of course not necessarily good either - but worthy of consideration none the less.

[Headbanger]

So one test every 10 years is going to fix up them bad driving habits....... ? Tui


Not a test, Retraining.

Cost or not, Like it or not, Its a good idea.

[dipshit]

I think like most things in NZ, the standard of "training" would practically be a joke. Can you ride a figure of 8 around these cones... can you perform a hill start...

Congratulations, you're not a complete retard... you have just made the grade to be on NZ roads.

[Genestho]

Let Darwin take care of the rest.



Unfortunately 'Darwins Theory' does not rule out the innocent.
And I will tell you why...

Talking to my co-herent, Hubby before he died, explaining a scene. That I now dream frequently about.

Having held onto my husband as he died, feeling and looking at his injuries and scars, the mush of some of his bones, dressing his bloated, grey, stiff cold body - so he looked good in his coffin.

Id'ing a friend a pillion, thrown metres, with a smashed up body, and only imagining what our other friend looked like with severe head injuries, and a lost leg. All in one smash, via a recidivist 'indefinately disqualified' unlicensed drink driver, the car lent by an expired license owner.

This happens all the time. I have accumulated friends, many affected in the same manner, only many didn't have the luxury of Darwins Theory

The ripple effect from unnecasary smashes, is beyond your imagination.

Stranger is right, looking into sorting the licensing system out amongst education, and a few other things is worthy of consideration. We need it.

[firefighter]

via a recidivist 'indefinately disqualified' unlicensed drink driver.
This happens all the time.

Yes, a very sad story.

However we are'nt talking about drink driving, the education out there about drink driving is already sufficient.

Unfortunately, those who are going to drink drive will do it no matter what, especially recidivist scum, whom most of you who've read my rants will know i'd happilly have hung. However these people will not change, the education is there, we are just too scared to do the real enforcing needed to save others, by erradicating these monkeys which refuse to learn.


The ripple effect from unnecasary smashes, is beyond your imagination..

Actually, i've dealt with a lot of it. Largely professionally and a small amount personally.


Stranger is right, looking into sorting the licensing system out amongst education, and a few other things is worthy of consideration. We need it.

Sorry, but I feel it's not going to change anything. People drive the way they do, and will continue to do so, no matter how much training you give them, because they all know better......

Think about it: Police drink driving, F/Fighters, Ambo's. It happens everywhere. And they already get a hell of a lot of scrutiny placed on them and they way they drive, and a shit load more driver training than the average joe. Trust me.

But unfortunately there's still the odd dip-shit amoungst us who do it. Sad and embarrassing but it's true.

The real answer is in real punishment, that's the only thing that's going to scare them away from it. N.Z is far too soft to fathom taking a harder approach unfortunately.

[The Stranger]

Sorry, but I feel it's not going to change anything. People drive the way they do, and will continue to do so, no matter how much training you give them, because they all know better......


Not that many years ago if you were caught drink driving the cop would more often than not tell you to go straight home. When you regaled your mates with how pissed you were when you drove home last night it was met with humour. If you actually got snapped for drink driving the cops were considered unreasonable by your peers.

My how we've changed.

It takes 10yrs to effect a social change. It can and does happen. Safety belts are another example.

Change can and does happen. It may take time, but without a start it doesn't happen.

Sure, you are correct, there will always be the numb nuts out there, that wont change, but you can reduce the number of them sometimes.

[firefighter]

Personally I draw the line at killing or maiming others.
By all means kill yourself, that's entirely your business and I won't interfere in that one at all.
Cars *frequently* kill or maim others, so my personal view, having a few rules/conditions aimed at reducing carnage is not necessarily a bad thing, though of course not necessarily good either - but worthy of consideration none the less.

Well yes obviously. As do I. I get to see the result first hand.


Not a test, Retraining.

Cost or not, Like it or not, Its a good idea.

I truely believe that people will only go back to what they're doing straight after any re-training or testing.

Think about it, I bet you changed the way you rode for your licence testing.....right?
Should'nt you have just ridden like always? You know, staying AT the speed limit-not 10 over, dilengently indicating, head-checking, exaggerrating it all, more than you ever really would for real. I mean, be honest.

I bet you sped on your last ride?

[Headbanger]

Sorry, but I feel it's not going to change anything. People drive the way they do, and will continue to do so, no matter how much training you give them, because they all know better......

Think about it: Police drink driving, F/Fighters, Ambo's. It happens everywhere. And they already get a hell of a lot of scrutiny placed on them and they way they drive, and a shit load more driver training than the average joe. Trust me.


Currently there is next to no training, training people in correct operation will increase the standard of driving dramatically. Hell I see it constantly when I send people off to do training for tasks we do at work.

Just because some assholes will continue to cause grief is no reason to ignore the situation until it all goes to hell.

[Genestho]

However we are'nt talking about drink driving, the education out there about drink driving is already sufficient.
No I am discussing licenses. The whole reason I posted what I did relates to licensing issues.

Probably rude of me to remind with an emotive story. But the fact he was a drunk is a side issue, I add that because that's just a fact, ON TOP of being unlicensed, ontop of having a car lent by another unlicensed driver.

I disagree that dd education is sufficient.

Read the front page of the Herald, ALAC advising the public - male and female can have X amount of booze, before reaching a limit. Never mind we're all differing Weights/Mental Health/Physical Health/Liver Health. I saw nothing regarding the livers expellation rate compares to one standard drink per hour -based on a healthy liver?
How many kiwis have been bingedrinking and have hammered their livers - therefore expellation rate is less? Raising BAC limits quickly under those conditions!
Liver expellation is a test question in the Hospo Industry Exam for Bar Duty Managers, which I passed, that had to have backing by ALAC for Industry standards!

Why the Governing Body over alcohol would be advising MOT or the public this in such basic terms, ignoring the variables - makes no sense.

However - a side issue again, sorry to digress

But unfortunately there's still the odd dip-shit amoungst us who do it. Sad and embarrassing but it's true.

Yup.
Apathy is also a sad sight. From a Firefighter, I'm almost surprised. And I don't accept that there is an allowance for crap driving amongst my fellow road users, or the ease with which our licensing system conducts itself.

[firefighter]

Change can and does happen. It may take time, but without a start it doesn't happen.

Sure, you are correct, there will always be the numb nuts out there, that wont change, but you can reduce the number of them sometimes.

Certainly, and contrary to how I sound, (reading my own posts lol) i'm most definitely open to change.

However the real education and proper training needs to be embedded at the start, before these habits start.

L platers for eg should really be learning from an instructor only, not mum and dad-who hypocritically try and force their children to drive properly after teaching them bad habits for years......

[Genestho]

However the real education and proper training needs to be embedded at the start, before these habits start.


Addressing that - I'd like to see compulsary Road Safety classes in schools.
Pre licensing.

[Chrislost]

Another thread I'm sure will be un-popular.

I was thinking about the large number of riders who return to the bike after having a break for a long time, sometimes decades.

And then I was thinking, why do our licences re-new after 10 years without having to do anything?

What about the idea of having people attend some kind of "re-education" class before they can re-new their licence? A bit like how you have to re-new your PADI diving certificate every now and then.

And perhaps if you don't do some type of re-education your licence simply suspends until you do. Then if they don't ride for 30 years you can be reasonably confident that they'll attend some kind of training.

And for those who ride all the time - what harm will it do?

And so you say, they'll just ride with a suspended licence. I'm sure some will. But I suspect most will want insurance - and you can't get that without a licence for on-road use (and least, you can't get a pay out).
Also they are more likely to get nasty fines if stopped by the Police.

So what say all of you? Another bad idea, or it has some merit?

Im sure it will cost a couple of hundred for the RE-EDUCATION.
and what are they going to teach us? the defensive driving course was aimed 110% at cars and -10% at bikes...
In fact, the hazzard identification part or the course i failed cos i was picking oil on the road, cars at stop signs(that lookd like they were guna pull out, honest!), and white lines on the road as hazzards rather than pedestrians that were walking on the sidewalk etc.

Even somone returning to motorcycling isnt going to benifit from it.
Said returning rider could well benifit from a track day to find out just how fucking fast bikes go before they start to shake and do things that their old BSA used to do, and how suddenly it happens in comparison...

[firefighter]

Yup.
Apathy is also a sad sight. From a Firefighter, I'm almost surprised

Funny you should say that. From wiki;

"Often, apathy has been felt after witnessing horrific acts, such as the killing or maiming of people"

I would'nt call it apathy. Just indifference. lol. (joke) It's hard to see the same old story over and over, and believe that these same people will ever change.


Addressing that - I'd like to see compulsary Road Safety classes in schools.
Pre licensing.

Now we're talking...... Defensive driving as part of your learners or restricted also would be a good start.

[p.dath]

...
I truely believe that people will only go back to what they're doing straight after any re-training or testing.

Think about it, I bet you changed the way you rode for your licence testing.....right?
...

I agree, I bet nearly everyone rides more carefully when sitting the actual test, but that doesn't mean they haven't learned to do something new from the training they got.

But I don't think people will necessarily revert to bad riding techniques "just because". Sur eif you have it ingrained in you it will be harder to change, but consider the below cases.

With training, particularly bike training, if you learn a new skill it often makes riding easier and smoother, so you want to keep doing it that way (e,g. learning to corner better). Same happens when you learn a better way of doing something you have always done differently.

Lets take another skill. Emergency braking. Training to do it on any new bike is probably a good idea, because chances are any new bike will handle different to your last bike.


Then their is academic training (where you just get told something and have to process the message in your brain). Like don't drink till you can barely stand and then decide to go for a ride.
If you are a habitual drink rider then you probably just don't care, or lack the will power to make a positive change in your life.


So I don't think all re-training is a waste of time, particularly skills based. I do concur that some people can't be "told" what to do (such as don't drink and ride).

But overall, I certainly don't think we should give up on re-training just because it wont "take" for some people.

[Genestho]

Im sure it will cost a couple of hundred for the RE-EDUCATION.
and what are they going to teach us? the defensive driving course was aimed 110% at cars and -10% at bikes...
In fact, the hazzard identification part or the course i failed cos i was picking oil on the road, cars at stop signs(that lookd like they were guna pull out, honest!), and white lines on the road as hazzards rather than pedestrians that were walking on the sidewalk etc.

Even somone returning to motorcycling isnt going to benifit from it.
Said returning rider could well benifit from a track day to find out just how fucking fast bikes go before they start to shake and do things that their old BSA used to do, and how suddenly it happens in comparison...

(Wasn't going to post this but what the hey!I'll probably get growled) Currently a group in WBOP, are working on bringing NZQA accredited Motorcycling Training classes of 15, on Sundays, subsidised for youthriders, and if we can, extend this to 'Born Agains'.

Sounding positive, we have the teacher with the right quals, we have the plan, and the location. Research is now going into Using which budget from one of two Govt Departments. Hopefully I can bring an update later in the year!
Following this, we will run feedback reports, before during and after, and if successful, we maybe able to push for this NZ wide...MAY!

[p.dath]

...
Even somone returning to motorcycling isnt going to benifit from it.
Said returning rider could well benifit from a track day to find out just how fucking fast bikes go before they start to shake and do things that their old BSA used to do, and how suddenly it happens in comparison...

First let me say I do support your stance on many issues.

So if your re-turning to riding you don't think there would be any benefit from skills based re-training?

At track day I see even the most experienced riders say they are always learning something.

I don't think training has to stop just because you've had your licence for some magical period of time.

[Genestho]

Funny you should say that. From wiki;

"Often, apathy has been felt after witnessing horrific acts, such as the killing or maiming of people"

I would'nt call it apathy. Just indifference. lol. (joke) It's hard to see the same old story over and over, and believe that these same people will ever change.

Ok, faircall:yes: Actually, I know what you mean, despite how painful life can be, it's also just part of life.
I can't do anything to change my life, and I find myself pretty desentised to alot of things now!


Now we're talking...... Defensive driving as part of your learners or restricted also would be a good start.
Totally! I think there is something addressing this in the Safer journeys Document!

[Headbanger]

I bet you sped on your last ride?

No, I had fitted a new set of bars and nearly hit an Ambo when I couldn't find my front brake lever....:Oops:

Anyway, Based on my level of "training" I should never have been allowed on the road in the first place, Just like pretty much everyone else. Based on my behaviour since then I should probably have had my license revoked for life. Or at least been put through some intense reschooling.

But hey, the system says please give us money and carry on as you were.....

[Morcs]

I have enough trouble keeping my license as it is, without retesting too..

So no thanks.

[Chrislost]

I don't think training has to stop just because you've had your licence for some magical period of time.

It most definatly should not.
However the courses available at the moment do not seem to take bikes into account.

In my opinion most bikers are hooligans at heart, they remember thrashing around sliding and whatnot on some 1970s machinery.
They then go and buy some late model gsxr 1000 or what not, and to get the same feeling of thrashing they suddenly find themselves doing wow holy fuck that corner came up fast km/h panic, and ...

[The Stranger]

They then go and buy some late model gsxr 1000 or what not, and to get the same feeling of thrashing they suddenly find themselves doing wow holy fuck that corner came up fast km/h panic, and ...

Don't you mean "some late model gsxr 750"?

[Pedrostt500]

[QUOTE=tigertim20;1129397747]The main mistake with this argument is simple, You are assuming that these people who havent ridden a bike for 25 years, have not driven, or been a passenger in any other type of vehicle for that time either, and thus have not seen the technologial advancements which have been made within the engineering and automotive sectors. Of course they fuckin have man!! jesus, they dont just hide under a rock for a quarter of a century! and they know this. One thing in common with a 1965 triumph, and a 2009 R1 ad everything inbetween is this: it will only go as fast as your right wrist tells it to. Anybody who's ever been on a bike knows this anyway.

So why are the returning bikers ie those who have been away from riding for a long period of time the highest statistical, group that have seriuos injury / fatal accidents?. the next grope are the Newbies.
No the return riders have not been hiding under a rock but career, Kids, House, etc plus a myriad of other reasons have kept their focus and interests else where, possibly even thinking for a number of those years that they would not return to riding a bike again.
Its not the speed that you are traveling at that causes the most injury, it is how you come to a stop, so there fore its not how hard you twist the wrist, its how you land, or what you hit.

[The Stranger]

So why are the returning bikers ie those who have been away from riding for a long period of time the highest statistical, group that have seriuos injury / fatal accidents?. the next grope are the Newbies.
No the return riders have not been hiding under a rock but career, Kids, House, etc plus a myriad of other reasons have kept their focus and interests else where, possibly even thinking for a number of those years that they would not return to riding a bike again.
Its not the speed that you are traveling at that causes the most injury, it is how you come to a stop, so there fore its not how hard you twist the wrist, its how you land, or what you hit.

It comes down to a very simple, immutable fact.
Like so many things in life - If you don't use it you lose it.

[oldrider]

Another thread I'm sure will be un-popular.

I was thinking about the large number of riders who return to the bike after having a break for a long time, sometimes decades.

And then I was thinking, why do our licences re-new after 10 years without having to do anything?

What about the idea of having people attend some kind of "re-education" class before they can re-new their licence? A bit like how you have to re-new your PADI diving certificate every now and then.

And perhaps if you don't do some type of re-education your licence simply suspends until you do. Then if they don't ride for 30 years you can be reasonably confident that they'll attend some kind of training.

And for those who ride all the time - what harm will it do?

And so you say, they'll just ride with a suspended licence. I'm sure some will. But I suspect most will want insurance - and you can't get that without a licence for on-road use (and least, you can't get a pay out).
Also they are more likely to get nasty fines if stopped by the Police.

So what say all of you? Another bad idea, or it has some merit?

So, are you still an active leader of the boy scouts too? :sick:

[Chrislost]

Don't you mean "some late model gsxr 750"?

They may choose a late model GSXR 750 after they crash their 1000...
They also may run from the police unsuccesfully, get caught doing wheelies or burnouts, never get a fine in their life or even die.

[Fred Dagg]

Rather than try to 'multi quote' the previous valid - and many :whocares:- threads, I would like to respond as one of those returning bikers that this thread is aimed at!!!...:bye:
Yes it would be great if we were offered a riding refresher course - it was exactly the same kind of course that I achieved my full license 'some' years ago now!! :scooter:
Last time I owned a bike I managed to end up having an accident so ending up claiming my doc fees on ACC - as you do..:doctor:
I think riding school courses are valid courses, but they would be more beneficial if they were open to all - and for that matter, a compulsory defensive driving course for cage drivers wouldn't go astray either..
Ideally a motorcycle mechanic course included in the refresher course would be a bonus - or am I being greedy now??? :rockon: