Road rules

[dpex]

We have to have them, right? The answer is yes.

But do we have to have them enforced? The answer is no.

Are they enforced? The answer is no.

Clearly, we need some generally accepted rules to keep vehicles of all types separated. You know, "Stay left. Give way. Do all needed to avoid crashing." That sort of thing.

But do such rules need to be enforced given they are blindingly obvious in their intent? Of course they don't. They are there simply to provide a knowable and usable traffic flow.

I can hear the screams coming, even now.

But wait a bit.

Are the current traffic rules enforced by supervising enforcers, AKA, the cops? Answer? No.

For example, last Sunday I rode from Auckland to a river half-way between Thames and Paeroa, fished for about six hours then rode home. During 'both' trips I saw one cop-car, and that was an ordinary (non-traffic) car. Yet the traffic wended its way. Not an accident in sight. Not a cop in sight.

So was there any 'enforcement'? Or were the drivers simply driving more or less within the accepted rules....because they wanted to?

'Nar! Not possible,' I hear the Katmans yell. 'All drivers are bad arses, just waiting to jump the ropes.

Well, it now seems such is not so. Recently, in Holland, a very forward thinking local authority has removed all signs and lights, and no cops are employed. They call it "Shared-Space" transport.

The essential principal behind this utterly ludicrous scheme is that drivers can actually think for themselves. Nar! Ridiculous! Give any driver an inch and he'll take a mile. Nab'em and fine the bastards. That's what works.

Really?

Well, it seems that after a very short time after this utterly ludicrous, "Let's let the drivers make the calls" regime came into place, the accident rate in the town dropped dramatically.

So much so that no no less than seven other European cities have opted for the same regime. Ergo:- Endow humans with complete responsibility for their actions and they will act responsibly. Stick a rule in their faces, and then get all draconian about enforcing the rules, and humans will react badly.

The Dutch, and the other seven European towns which have adopted the no-rules/no-enforcement regime, are posting a massive reduction in crash rates, pedestrian-meets-car, cyclist meets death, etc.

And the proof that we do not need to have sundry jack-booted cops handing out tickets in New Zealand, is evidenced every day of every year on our highways and byways. There's a gazillion vehicles and the odd cop.

So what causes the gazillions of drivers to act in a rational and civilised manner, without fear of being turned over by a cop on account of there are almost no cops available?

Simple. Self preservation.

And so I come back to an earlier post. Humans have a natural sense of self preservation. It can be enhanced by rewarding drivers for doing absolutely nothing more than remaining crash free, rather than constantly penalising drivers who, by their actions MIGHT crash.

The victimisation of otherwise civilised drivers is not dissimilar to the RMA rules regarding the pruning of trees. Rodney Hide has now made it legal to prune any damned tree you choose to prune, providing you own it.

The Greens are screaming that this will lead to the wholesale destruction of every tree in the land.

Will It?

Nope. All it will do is provide some folk with the right to get back a bit of sunlight which was robbed from them by a tree growing beyond imagination, and given the right to grow, at the expense of humans.

Did you know that upwards of 40% of all sales from garden centres, nationwide, are of trees!

The greens make up 13% of the population. That means the other 27% of tree-buyers buy trees because they like them. But a tree which seriously affects the living conditions of a person either has to be pruned or get felled. Now we have that right.

And so what could be if we adopted the, "It's your responsibility to drive carefully," regime, as the Europeans have adopted?

Mayhem?

The Europeans are seeing that. In fact they're seeing the diametric opposite.

Do you see what this regime is saying? It's saying, 'Your safety is YOUR responsibility.' Whereas the OSH/ACC/Traffic enforcement system is saying it's theirs. Yet the buggers are never there doing safety. They are only ever their after the event.

Wooo! Imagine lil-ol NZ adopting the 'personal responsibility' regime.

[dino3310]

i vote dpex as minister for transport :woohoo:

good write up mate, got me thinking and that takes a bit of doing

[sil3nt]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space

Interesting Auckland is apparently looking into it.

[Mully]

Yeah, but what's the driver training program in Holland compared to NZ?

Perhaps the drivers on your trip, Dpex, were only behaving themselves because of the threat of a cop round the next bend...

I'd dare to argue that most of the monkeys that NZ gives licences to are simply too stupid to manage themselves if they know there's no enforcement

[tomobedlam]

I'd dare to argue that most of the monkeys that NZ gives licences to are simply too stupid to manage themselves if they know there's no enforcement

That's the argument for it. The current system creates the monkeys. With shared space you have to take responsibility and interact with other road users. You can't afford to be a monkey because you will hit someone

[PirateJafa]

Speaking from what I remember of Holland, there's far less of a "fuck everyone else, I'm the most important person here" attitude over there.

Remember that ACCouncil's goal here is to reduce overall traffic speed, amongst other things.

[Mully]

That's the argument for it. The current system creates the monkeys. With shared space you have to take responsibility and interact with other road users. You can't afford to be a monkey because you will hit someone

I see what you're saying, but isn't that what should be happening now - you should be taking responsibility and interacting properly with other road users?

How will the guarantee of no enforcement (i.e. no possibility of a ticket) make it more likely that people will behave like humans?

But going to the idea; what happens if you are a monkey, you hit someone, and you're uninsured? My insurance premiums go up again to cover these uninsured idiots.

The laughably short probationary period (particularly for cars), combined with a scratch test that wouldn't tax the abilities of a mildly retarded chimp, is one of the main issues on our roads.

Don't get me wrong, I think the idea has merit. I see it failing for two reasons:

1 - Big revenue drop for the Gummint.
2 - The laws have to cater for the lowest common denominator.

[Squiggles]

Last weekend i watched several vehicles overtake others around blind bends, as luck would have it another wasnt also coming around the corner. Could we drive responsibly if left to it? Hell no (We have far too shocking an attitude towards driving for that)

[Danae]

Can you imagine the large intersections (5 different roads) being uncontrolled? The attitude of Auckland drivers is such that we need some sort of direction. "I'm important...I need to get somewhere NOW...let me through, I hate waiting in traffic..." I wouldn't want people with that mindset having to decide for themselves when to go at an intersection. Half of them don't even know the give way rules.

[NDORFN]

I like your thinking Dpex. Obviously the extreme of removing all road signs isn't going to work, but the idea of allowing more tendancy toward self-preservation rather than what we are currently subjected to is brilliant.

[yachtie10]

Interesting idea
Ive ridden in asia quite a lot over the last 6/7 years and I see some huge similarity to what you are describing. They have rules and almost no enforcement
Im always amazed I dont see an accident everyday due to close calls and disregard for rules that I see (has made me ride much more defensively)
personal responsibility I think is what makes it work.
One issue is that in asia is that divers are relatively uneducated compared to even the average kiwi so I dont know how it would work

Do you have any links to info?

BTW although I get frustrated with the idiots here it makes me much more mellow when back in NZ

[dpex]

Can you imagine the large intersections (5 different roads) being uncontrolled? The attitude of Auckland drivers is such that we need some sort of direction. "I'm important...I need to get somewhere NOW...let me through, I hate waiting in traffic..." I wouldn't want people with that mindset having to decide for themselves when to go at an intersection. Half of them don't even know the give way rules.


Jesus H Christ! There are dozens of 'uncontrolled' 5-even 6-way intersections. They're called roundabouts. All you do is give way to your right. No lights, no cops, no prudes. But somehow, drivers seem to cope.

[Danae]

Jesus H Christ! There are dozens of 'uncontrolled' 5-even 6-way intersections. They're called roundabouts. All you do is give way to your right. No lights, no cops, no prudes. But somehow, drivers seem to cope.

As it is relatively simple. Go clockwise. Yet still there are many close calls even on roundabouts. That's how fail auckland drivers are. Doesn't help they keep planting trees and shit on them so you can't see what's coming from the other side.

[NDORFN]

Jesus H Christ! There are dozens of 'uncontrolled' 5-even 6-way intersections. They're called roundabouts. All you do is give way to your right. No lights, no cops, no prudes. But somehow, drivers seem to cope.

Yeah they're infinately better than lights. Can't believe they pulled out some roundabouts in Hamilton recently and changed them to lights.

[bogan]

a very interesting idea, I can beleive it would decrease accidents. I also see congestion issues though, as epople mat get overcourteous without directions, I would be interested to know what sort of traffic volumes this system has been implemented with.

[NDORFN]

a very interesting idea, I can beleive it would decrease accidents. I also see congestion issues though, as epople mat get overcourteous without directions, I would be interested to know what sort of traffic volumes this system has been implemented with.

You only get congestion in Auckland, which has a population of around a quarter of the population and they aren't even trying at mass-transit so fuck them, majority rules. The rest of the country deserves this!

[swbarnett]

How will the guarantee of no enforcement (i.e. no possibility of a ticket) make it more likely that people will behave like humans?
Humans are programmed to think for themselves. It's an evolutionary imperitave that brought the human brain to where it is today i.e. only those that could think well enough survived.

We also seem to be programmed to react badly when told to do something. We think we know better. This results in a rebellion against authority, expecially when it's blatantly obvious (to the individual) that the authority has it wrong. I know for myself that every time I see one of those dumb anti-speed ads I just want to hit the road and open the throttle.


But going to the idea; what happens if you are a monkey, you hit someone, and you're uninsured?
For one thing you'll have fewer monkeys.


My The laughably short probationary period (particularly for cars), combined with a scratch test that wouldn't tax the abilities of a mildly retarded chimp, is one of the main issues on our roads.
Of course this is an issue in NZ that needs to be addressed at the same time. This is, though, a separate issue. Even without better training you'll get better drivers just by trusting people to handle the task.


Don't get me wrong, I think the idea has merit. I see it failing for two reasons:

1 - Big revenue drop for the Gummint.
2 - The laws have to cater for the lowest common denominator.
1 - I don't know the figures but the commenserate reduction in ACC and enforcement costs might just balance this out.
2 - If you treat people with respect for their inteligence (even if they don't have a lot) the lowest common denominator will rise.



On a more general note:

When I lived in Switzerland I observed some of the best driving that I've seen anywhere. Although the laws were pretty strict it was well known that the enforcement was very light (I think I saw maybe two police cars in the whole two years I was there). Drivers were just left to their own devices. The road code even said that if the law didn't fit the particular circumstances you found yourself in then you should work it out for yourself. One reason this worked is that the public transport system was so good that those that didn't want to drive didn't have to.

In NZ the problem as I see it is twofold:

1. Our public transport is so bad that most people are forced to drive themselves, even those that, given the choice, would rather not because they don't really have the aptitude for it.
2. We treat everybody like morons. This only produces more morons. We need to reduce the number of road laws and empower people instead.

[Dare]

In Finland, the car driver's training can be obtained either in a private driving school or given by a near relative who has a driver's licence. If the person is trained by a relative, the relative must obtain a special instructor's permit and have a car fitted and inspected with an extra set of brake pedals for the front passenger. The training for B class licence requires 30 hours of instructed driving, including a spell on a slippery driving course, and 20 theory lessons. After this, the person must pass a computerized theory test and a driving test in city traffic with a minimum length of 30 minutes. C class training is similar, but longer.

The initial license is issued for two years. During this time, the new driver may receive a maximum of two traffic fines in total. If the number of fines is exceeded, the license is revoked and the driver is required to re-take the exam. Even with one fine, the interim period may be extended for a maximum of two years. During the interim period, the new driver must pass a short refresher course, which includes a slippery driving course, and participate in dark time driving training, unless this was part of the initial training. (Finnish lighting conditions prevent the dark time training during summer.)

The motorcycles are divided in three categories. Anyone born before 1985 may drive a moped. Persons born in 1985 or after may obtain a moped driver's licence at the age of 15. This requires passing a simple computerized theory exam. The A1 licence, allowing the use of light motorbikes, may be obtained at the age of 16. The practical training is done independently in traffic after a training permit has been obtained from the police. Theoretical training includes 12 theory lessons. A person who has A1 licence can get a full A license after holding the A1 for two years. After the age of 21, a person can obtain the A licence directly, without holding an A1 licence first.
Sounds complicated, but Finland apparently produces some of the best drivers. Who's keen for this system?


2 - If you treat people with respect for their inteligence (even if they don't have a lot) the lowest common denominator will rise.
How exactly do you respect a drivers intelligence? Make the signs with more eloquent english? 'Halt thy progress!'
On the Auckland bridge I see people go through those double red x signs when they are trying to do road works on the clip-ons, one has to assume this is some sort of wilful rejection of the system because the signs are so blatantly obvious as to their intent and very hard to miss.

[Maki]

Last weekend i watched several vehicles overtake others around blind bends, as luck would have it another wasnt also coming around the corner. Could we drive responsibly if left to it? Hell no (We have far too shocking an attitude towards driving for that)

Makes you wonder what the hell cops are doing. Anyone who is caught doing that should be punished severely.

Oh, of course the cops don't have time to crack down on behaviour that actually does cause death and destruction on a regular basis. They are too busy collecting $ off people who overtake safely in designated overtaking areas and momentarily reach speeds in excess of 110kmh.

Makes me furious to know that my tax $ are not making the roads any safer and the cops waste their time harrassing people who are not creating any danger.

And regaring the topic of this post. Great idea, yes please but come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who genuinely endangers the safety of other road users.

[swbarnett]

How exactly do you respect a drivers intelligence?
It's an attitude thing. Currently roads and laws are being designed with the intention of making driving idiot proof i.e the designers believe that a large percentage of the drivers are idiots. This leads to two undesireable outcomes:
1. Because the brain is not required to drive under most normal circumstances it's not used. When things go wrong the average driver can't react as inteligently as they should as a result.
2. You get people like me who get pissed off when in order to obey the law you have to defy logic. For example, when you see yellow lines in places that are obviously safe to overtake. As a result you're more likely to ignore ALL yellow lines and end up overtaking in silly places.

If, on the other hand, roads and laws are designed with the attitude that most drivers can think for themselves then:
1. The average driver will have a higher level of brain engagement and therefore handle pear-shaped situations better.
2. The law will engender more respect resulting in fewer drivers rebelling.

What about the small percentage of driver that will always be a problem? The ones that are genuinely idiots? Well, for one thing, treat all drivers as if they have a brain and the number of genuine idiots will fall dramatically. Bolster the public transport system and those that are left will more than likely opt not to drive because they never really wanted to in the first place.

[red675]

Can you imagine the large intersections (5 different roads) being uncontrolled?

YES, you ever watched what happens when the traffic lights fail ?

I clearly remember everyone being really careful, not cutting across each other and showing deference to all - it worked bloody well and no evidence of any accidents when i came back through the same set of failed lights a while later

[vifferman]

YES, you ever watched what happens when the traffic lights fail ?
Yeah, panic.
People have become so programmed to their behaviour at lights being dictated by a machine (apart from the arseholes that decide they're going to go, even if the light is amber, or amber going red), that at first they panic, and many of them have no idea how an uncontrolled intersection works. Eventually. some of them remember the give way rules, and the rest just close their eyes and hope for the best, or play "follow the leader".

It's all rather a cultural thing. Driving in even a different city has different cultural norms, although Auckland 'expediency rules' are spreading, unfortunately. Chch is more relaxing to drive in than Auckland, Tauranga has become a mini-Auckland, and Rotorua is frustrating because the locals drive very slowly and erratically.

I enjoyed driving in Holland, but not Belgium (which borders Holland, for those of you are geographically impaired), as the people in parts of Belgium (like Brussels) don't seem to know the raod rules, so it's mayhem. The US was likewise pleasant to drive in. Apart from local police, the law enforcement officals largely leave people alone, and the CHP ignore speeding as long as traffic is flowing, and the speeding driver isn't being an ass-hat. At intersections, most of which are 4-way stop signs, although there are rules, generally it works on courtesy, with people establishing for themselves who goes next, and if in doubt, deferring to other drivers. I have a suspicion some of it has to do with not wanting to provoke a road-rage incident that may escalate to a shooting, but it works!

I suspect that if the police here were concerned with safety, and didn't have ACC-mandated quotas to meet, that things would work more betterer. There would still be some 'snakes' whose sole purpose in life is to be an arsehole, but we might see more tickets handed out for genuinely unsafe driving habits than for those that require no more work than pointing a laser gun out the window on the motorway. Policing at its laziest and possibly most ineffectual; what does it achieve? Yes, motorists check their speed, but only until they're past the parked Commodore. If they're pinged, all it does is make them resentful and a little poorer, and causes a hazard of the cop's making, as he pursues his prey through the midst of dozens of other motorists, most of whom are behaving, but some may well be following too closely, talking on cellphones, or otherwise driving in a dangerous way that's not apparent unless the cops give a crap and bother to pay particular attention.

[red675]

when the lights failed

what I saw didn't look much like panic

but a lot more like people thinking for themselves rather than travelling on auto



it helps the understanding if you slow your reading speed

[scumdog]

Wooo! Imagine lil-ol NZ adopting the 'personal responsibility' regime.

Mwahahaha, that's the funniest thing I've heard for..for yonks:crazy::killingme:rofl:

[scumdog]

YES, you ever watched what happens when the traffic lights fail ?

I clearly remember everyone being really careful, not cutting across each other and showing deference to all - it worked bloody well and no evidence of any accidents when i came back through the same set of failed lights a while later

Things would change on the thrird day, mark my word.

(it IS New Zealand I'm talking about)

[bsasuper]

We live in NZ, not holland,finland,germany, we have a government which is voted in by NZ'ers,If you want them do do something you have to have a lot of people tell them, otherwise you will have to put up with the shit they throw at us.Its all very well saying we shoiuld do this and that, but if you dont rally the right people, naf all will happen.

[mister.koz]

I've seen the lights fain in the tron a bit and normally its been fine, most of the time people don't seem to know what to do, there is always a pause while people wait to remember the give way rules or wait for someone else to start the ball rolling then its all good.

My biggest doubts are based soley in the lack of intelligence of people on the roads and i seriously doubt that it would be a safe move to start with on any busy street.

Its hard to have faith in the 100,000 drivers that i passed after seeing 7 of them driving like idiots.

That being said; i hate walking on footpaths in parks in central hamilton because of the morons on push bikes but the "share with care" areas are fine... go figure.

[slofox]

fished for about six hours

Didja catch any fish?

[swbarnett]

Its hard to have faith in the 100,000 drivers that i passed after seeing 7 of them driving like idiots.
Indeed, but this what we must do.

[ckai]

Gotta admit too that it's an interesting idea. But it's the mentality of "what about the really crap drivers" which would never see this take off in NZ (country wide that is). The major thing that would make this work is that you are not only responsible for yourself but you have to also take some small responsibility for the other drivers around you.

The biggest problem with not only todays drivers but todays people is the lack of respect for each other. If that changed this sort of thing would be a breeze.


YES, you ever watched what happens when the traffic lights fail ?

No one knows what to bloody do. Do you treat like a round about? Does "main road" have right of way? ahhh. No clues.

But I have to admit, when I've approached failed lights I do it with CRAZY extreme care. Make sure everyone knows I'm moving through and gun it :)

But that is a pure example of the point. Everyone takes HEAP more care.


Yeah they're infinately better than lights. Can't believe they pulled out some roundabouts in Hamilton recently and changed them to lights.

Round abouts only work when there is an even flow of traffic from all entries. The ones that were changed had too much from coming from the main routes i.e. SH1. So all the other entries had to wait for bloody ages to get through. Meaning people would get impatient and do typical kiwi driver thing and say "bugger it, it's my turn, make way". Crash boom bang.

The lights work heaps better especially during peak times.

[swbarnett]

But it's the mentality of "what about the really crap drivers"
I've gotta ask - why is everybody worried about crap drivers under a scheme where you're forced to take responsibility for yourself? There are crap drivers on the roads now. Does that worry me? No. Why? Because I look after myself and, so far, have managed to handle a miriad of close calls caused by crap driving without any major cncequences.


The biggest problem with not only todays drivers but todays people is the lack of respect for each other. If that changed this sort of thing would be a breeze.
While I agree with your sentiment I'd like to point out that the reverse is also true. Implement a scheme that demands more respect for our fellow road users and that's what will result.

[dpex]

Mwahahaha, that's the funniest thing I've heard for..for yonks:crazy::killingme:rofl:


Maybe, Scum, you have just spent too long gazing at the so-called magic wand of enforcement. But explain to us all how it is that during my five hours of travel last weekend, with not a cop is sight, I saw not one driver do anything stupid.

You and yours weren't out there, doing steely-eyed control. The traffic just flowed, happily.

Explain that, please.

Remember. This was a weekend day. Those are the days when the hopeless and inane take to th highways. Yet the hopeless and inane seemed to have adapted very well to the prevalent conditions, despite there being not a cop in sight.

Please explain how this could be if, in fact, most drivers are capable of simple self-regulation.

[dpex]

Things would change on the thrird day, mark my word.

(it IS New Zealand I'm talking about)

But surely, marking your word would fly in the face of the European experience.

Some small Dutch town started with the idea of leaving best-practice driving to the drivers. Suddenly, the concept blossomed and now at least seven more principalities have adopted the same strategy, and found the same results; ergo, the crash rate drops dramatically.

Is this just luck? Or is it an example of the very first shift away from the politically correct, nanny-state ethic of, "Do as we tell you or we'll visit you with an evil."?

Maybe this is a return to the ideal of saying to folk, 'Hey, cooperation is where it's at.'

I fully appreciate that in your job you confront far more evil than anyone else on this channel. But divide the number of evils which you daily confront, into the population, and you will find that evil is a relatively rare thing, whereas general decency is not.

If ever you get the time and interest, read up a bit on the concepts of anarchy. A concept which has been given a very bad name by the control-freaks. But anarchy is, in fact, the essential 'live and let live' ideal.

In fact the Ten Commandments are the essential ethos within which humans can live, given the opportunity. They propound a simple message. 'Live and let live.'

In my experience, over fifty years of driving and riding, most others I have met on the roads adhere to that concept.

Sure, there are arseholes, but they are few compared to the rest. But the rest do not appreciate being treated like arseholes. That's the bit the Dutch have realised and the bit which traffic-law enforcers in NZ have yet to catch up on.

And so, it seems that in the Dutch experience, when a non-arsehole comes across and arsehole, the non-arsehole is able to chill out and let the arsehole go. The non-arsehole is psychologically enabled to do this because he/she has suddenly been recognised as a person with a brain who can take responsibility, and not simply react; badly.

But hey, Scum, your job relies upon the concept that we arsehole need to be kept in line, so I guess you're reasonably biased.

[dpex]

I've gotta ask - why is everybody worried about crap drivers under a scheme where you're forced to take responsibility for yourself? There are crap drivers on the roads now. Does that worry me? No. Why? Because I look after myself and, so far, have managed to handle a miriad of close calls caused by crap driving without any major cncequences.


While I agree with your sentiment I'd like to point out that the reverse is also true. Implement a scheme that demands more respect for our fellow road users and that's what will result.

This is a bloody good post swbarnett! You nail it exactly. Good on ya, buddy. Keep up the good thinking.

[No FX]

Excellent post Dpex

[dpex]

Jesus H Christ but the concept isn't that hard to grasp. Two words. GIVE WAY.

Forget all the rules and regulations and forget the worst one. That one being 'I HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY'! So fucking what?

The law says!!! You have the right of way in various circumstances. But why do you have to demand that at every turn of the way?

People; at the top end of intelligence we have men and women who are so far beyond the average brain as to be almost incomprehensible.

At the bottom end we have folk who would embarrass an ape.

So which one of those two is driving the vehicle about to, or capable of, move into your path?

But to our lives, each of these extremes of folk are necessary to us. At the top end they provide magic machines and heart bypasses, whereas at the bottom end they clean our public dunnies. We need each extreme, and all who fall in between.

But how do we pick them, as we ride along, demanding right of way cos the fucking law says we have it, but the dunny-cleaners haven't caught up with the plan.

How do we pick the drunk, or the woman on Prosac, or the guy about to have a heart attack, or the mother who just found her tot in the back seat choking on a string?

Any or all of these three might be to your left at a roundabout. You have right of way. But look! That driver is acting oddly.

What do you do?

Assert, 'Fuck you!' or do you use the Dutch approach of shared space, and simply let the other person go, shake your head in wonder, yet survive?

It takes so little to give way even when you have right on your side.

Have you all ever noticed how, during heavy peak-hour traffic, so many drivers make a space for you to turn left or right? And not a cop in sight.

Why do they do that? They had the right of way!

It's simple cooperation. Take away the 'force' and humans get on.

Yeah. I know. There's always the "What about the...."? There will always be those. The trick is to identify and avoid them, not identify and demand they do right, because they never will.

Give way when you don't have to should be our national driving anthem.

[cheshirecat]

This is a bloody good post swbarnett! You nail it exactly. Good on ya, buddy. Keep up the good thinking.

Absolutely. We could start with driving test which encouraged pride in driving as opposed to treating us like potentially naughty 2 year olds and some road rules which prioritise coherently. like not crossing a centerline unless it is clear, A roads having priority over B roads and so forth. At present someone coming out of a minor donkey track has priority over those turning in from a major A road.

[dpex]

Absolutely. We could start with driving test which encouraged pride in driving as opposed to treating us like potentially naughty 2 year olds and some road rules which prioritise coherently. like not crossing a centerline unless it is clear, A roads having priority over B roads and so forth. At present someone coming out of a minor donkey track has priority over those turning in from a major A road.

It's an interesting posit, Chesh, but one which is a bit of the fifties, unless the gov picks up the gauntlet and allows personal responsibility to succeed.

Back in the fifties, when I was a kid, just owning a car meant you had to know how to repair everything in it. Our pride was not just in the driving, but knowing 'what' we were driving. How it worked. It's limitations, etc.

All that's gone now. Folk get into a mobile hush-puppy and not only expect but demand it works.

Folk have been disconnected from the mechanics of what they drive. They now just drive and expect.

So let's all assume that some/most/many of them haven't got a clue about the mechanics or dynamics of the hush-puppy in which they rave around the highways and byways.

What's wrong with assuming that and acting accordingly?

It's called intelligent cooperation.

[dpex]

Didja catch any fish?

Yeah, as a matter of fact. Caught about ten. Released eight and kept two, very healthy (till I whacked them) 4 pounders.

[scumdog]

Maybe, Scum, you have just spent too long gazing at the so-called magic wand of enforcement. But explain to us all how it is that during my five hours of travel last weekend, with not a cop is sight, I saw not one driver do anything stupid.

You and yours weren't out there, doing steely-eyed control. The traffic just flowed, happily.

Explain that, please.

Remember. This was a weekend day. Those are the days when the hopeless and inane take to th highways. Yet the hopeless and inane seemed to have adapted very well to the prevalent conditions, despite there being not a cop in sight.

Please explain how this could be if, in fact, most drivers are capable of simple self-regulation.

I bet all scientist are cringing at your long-term analysis of the problem.....

Look, I could also but won't tell you of the number of times that when I'm not on duty I've seen all manner of dangerous shit by all manner of people when there's no cop around - just the sight of a cop though smartens up the driving behaviour.

Or the time when taking off on a green light a twat in an old Corolla wagon ran a red "no-right-turn", cut across my bows and got ploughed into.

Or the time...

If the driver behaviour was as good as you say all the time *555 would be obsolete by now.




(Just in case other thought you were serious....)

[Katman]

'Nar! Not possible,' I hear the Katmans yell. 'All drivers are bad arses, just waiting to jump the ropes.


I truly wonder sometimes at the lack of comprehension skills that some KBers display.

[Drew]

I truly wonder sometimes at the lack of comprehension skills that some KBers display.

I have to post, to subscribe to this thread, so I'll jump on this comment.


Dont take shit personally on here for the love of god!

Perhaps if you approached it with an even tone, and treated people like they would understand, your message would be better recieved. Instead of shouting it at us dumb fucks because yours is the right way, we should all conform without understanding, because we cant.

[bogan]

'Nar! Not possible,' I hear the Katmans yell. 'All drivers are bad arses, just waiting to jump the ropes.

Katmans, you mean theres more than one :shit: everybody knows there can be only one Katman php server code dictates this

On topic though, It seems they hypotheticals are being thrown about quite happily, but the way i sees it. Theres only one NZ, we are of a unique demographic, so theres only one place where this system can be truly evaluated for us. It must be tried here to be properly evaluated, so the question becomes,
How can we get some small scale testing of these idea's implemented in new zealand?

[Katman]

Dont take shit personally on here for the love of god!



My apologies Drew.

It must have been the use of the word 'Katman' that confused me.

[MarkH]

I have to post, to subscribe to this thread

?????

Can't you just click on 'thread tools' near the top and then click on 'subscribe to this thread'?

[dpex]

I truly wonder sometimes at the lack of comprehension skills that some KBers display.

I think ACC should be told about your self-induced RSI before you make a claim. Wanker.

[tigertim20]

Maybe, Scum, you have just spent too long gazing at the so-called magic wand of enforcement. But explain to us all how it is that during my five hours of travel last weekend, with not a cop is sight, I saw not one driver do anything stupid.

You and yours weren't out there, doing steely-eyed control. The traffic just flowed, happily.

Explain that, please.

Remember. This was a weekend day. Those are the days when the hopeless and inane take to th highways. Yet the hopeless and inane seemed to have adapted very well to the prevalent conditions, despite there being not a cop in sight.

Please explain how this could be if, in fact, most drivers are capable of simple self-regulation.


Not that I have read the thing you have read on this, but, there are a couple things, this is New Zealand, not Europe, there is a vast difference in the liscencing structure between there and here.
Secondly, you particular example of the other weekend when you did your ride, well its numbers, Ihave driven the length of the south Islnd on a relatively regular basis, maybe 4-8 times a year, and sometimes, the whole way, I see NO cops. Other times I see them every 50 fucking K's!
As for the behaviour I experience on these drives, sometimes people are great, other times there are a huge number of fucktards, but the number of fucktards (or lack thereof) in my experience has no correlation with the visibility of the police.
On the other hand, I almost NEVER see a cop in town areas, but THAT is exactly where 95% of the stupidity I see occurs (more so when I am watching from two wheels than four)

One persons experience doesn't usually reflect that of the greater population, and as I already said, we are not Europe.

On the other hand, your observations and suggestions obviously stem from the knowledge that, to a large degree, we do have a problem with the way drivers on our roads act, and are looking for possible remedies, which is more than what many people on here can say for themselves, most are content with simply shitting on everybody else's offerings... I dont think that this is the solution for NZ, but hey, youre thinking, and thats a fucking good start!!

[cheshirecat]

On the other hand, your observations and suggestions obviously stem from the knowledge that, to a large degree, we do have a problem with the way drivers on our roads act, and are looking for possible remedies, which is more than what many people on here can say for themselves, most are content with simply shitting on everybody else's offerings... I dont think that this is the solution for NZ, but hey, youre thinking, and thats a fucking good start!!

Re the last paragraph. It might be only me but many 'situations' are caused by cars actually eyballing me (big red bike with twin plus 90%hellas travelling at 47kph) , pulling out then not moving up to traffic speed promptly. They fail/ignore seeing that there's a sizable gap behind and only have to wait a couple of seconds. It happens so often I almost think it must be compulsory in the car test, ie if you can almost make it go for it. Its as if the road code hence attitude, is of driving in a small country town circa 1960 of 6 cars.
Do the transport regulators actually drive in todays urban traffic.