The Group Ride Guide Announcement [Archive]

The Stranger

13th September 2009, 19:04

The Group Ride Guide

Group rides. Many like minded individuals meet up to share their passion for sport, ride some excellent roads, enjoy the company of old and meet new friends and talk shit. Unfortunately, all too often however these excursions are marred by an accident – or worse, we lose a friend.
Make no mistake it is a dangerous game we play at the best of times, but there are some things particular to group rides that can catch out the unwary.

An approach was made to the wise and powerful Mental Trousers to try and find a way to bring together a group of folk from a broad spectrum of KB and see if we could reach a consensus on these factors and what could be done to mitigate them.

What follows is the fruit of those discussions. A set of guidelines which we hope, if adopted and followed will go some way toward reducing the risks associated with group rides and make them more enjoyable for all participants.

It is hoped that organisers will state that rides will be run in accordance with The Group Ride Guide and provide a link to this in their announcement and/or calendar event posts. It is anticipated that the guidelines can not cover every situation nor should all be applicable to every ride. But please, let people know what to expect so that they may make an informed decision as to whether they should attend the ride or not.

I won’t name names, I think MT has access to a list of all participants, and some, for various reasons wished to remain anonymous. As you know, trying to get consensus on any given topic from more than a couple of people can be difficult, so for my part I would like to thank everyone for their co-operation, time, effort, ideas and constructive input. Well done guys.

The Group Ride Guide (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=107628)

Mental Trousers

13th September 2009, 20:32

Thanks Noel. Also thanks to those that took part in coming up with these guidelines. I think we got an excellent group together and there was plenty of vigorous discussion over much of the content. There were disagreements and some strong debating over some of the stuff in this guide.

Please note that this was produced by a group from the community. It isn't in anyway an official Kiwibiker document and isn't published by KB.

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Kittyhawk

14th September 2009, 18:49

The latest Motorcycle Trader (September edition) has an article on page 76 about formation riding, common hand signals, the "corner man system" and group touring.

Might be worth a read.:niceone:

Macontour

14th September 2009, 22:04

Cheers to those that put the guide together. A lot of it SHOULD be common sense but even us wise old ones on here occasionally let the red mist descend or try a little hard on roads we do not know well!:doh:

I like the info on how to tell if you are trying too hard, I occasionally find myself holding my breath as the back squirms around under heavy braking half way through a corner and the bike is standing up and running wide:doh::no::doh::spanking:

buellbabe

15th September 2009, 11:58

WOW! A lot of thought has gone into this.
Bloody good job.
The carnage on KB group rides is why I very RARELY EVER do KB rides.

Thing is that people say "who are you to tell me how to ride and what I can and cannot do?"
IMHO if a person has that attitude then they shouldn't BE on a group ride cos they obviously have zero respect for the other riders.

Once again cheers to the people who took the time to put this together. It will be interesting to see if anything changes...

Tink

16th September 2009, 22:15

James Deuce

16th September 2009, 22:24

That's completely convinced me to never participate in another group ride.

Ever.

Coldrider

16th September 2009, 22:35

As a beginner I am impressed, as group rides would make me nervous, no less than riding in traffic at this point... I would like this documented... possible more info in the roadcode too.

Just curious how many people actually know CPR or any first aid courses. I am certainly going to seek some knowledge from a good friends mum in Pukekohe who works for St Johns!
I haven't read the article, but as an experienced rider, group riding make me nervous ( gives me the shits).
A whole lot of riders, different experiences, different speeds, different confidences, different cornering lines between types of bikes and ages of bikes, incorrect cornering through following the bike in front, the whole thing spells disaster, not having a go at you or anything, I am a st john first aider for years, but we should never have to attend someone on a group ride, the whole point has been lost at that point.

SixPackBack

16th September 2009, 22:40

Tink

16th September 2009, 22:43

I haven't read the article, but as an experienced rider, group riding make me nervous ( gives me the shits).
A whole lot of riders, different experiences, different speeds, different confidences, different cornering lines between types of bikes and ages of bikes, incorrect cornering through following the bike in front, the whole thing spells disaster, not having a go at you or anything, I am a st john first aider for years, but we should never have to attend someone on a group ride, the whole point has been lost at that point.

Which means... never ride in a group... never ride in a kb group ... or just never get on a bike.... I have faith in my friends... as to new friends I would guess anyone that makes a monkey of themselves are not worthy of riding with... online or on the road....

I still would like a first aid cert!

James Deuce

16th September 2009, 22:46

Big respect Noel.

Absolutely.

Thoroughly wasted on an "organisation" like KB. Too many disparate riding styles, attitudes and egos.

Find people you enjoy, who ride like you do and stay away from KB group rides.

KB's not a club of like-minded people with similar attitudes to life and riding. It's as far from that as you can get and still have a common interest.

Still, if the initiative saves one person from a head-on with a car over the next 12 weeks it was worthwhile.

It's an interesting culture change though. Tried the same approach a few years back and got shouted down fairly aggressively.

James Deuce

16th September 2009, 22:48

Tink

16th September 2009, 22:52

Come back when you've buried a few of those mates you trust and let us know how you feel about it then.

That is a true statement... I hope never too.. but will not expect not too... I am a realistic person.

Coldrider

16th September 2009, 23:02

That is a true statement... I hope never too.. but will not expect not too... I am a realistic person.

Why should this be a true statement if you have full confidence in your KB friends, and no , I have never ridden in a KB group, that is internet riding, roads are the real world.

Tink

16th September 2009, 23:21

Why should this be a true statement if you have full confidence in your KB friends, and no , I have never ridden in a KB group, that is internet riding, roads are the real world.

the true statement is seeing your friends die (your comment on mine)... I do have full confidence in my friends but.... experienced riders although still die due to mistakes by others & rarely themselves and.... people that place comments on kb... sometimes fall into the trap .. peer pressure, the need to impress etc... which is in my eyes immaturity.. a lack of thought an inability to foresee their actions... :)

James Deuce

16th September 2009, 23:26

experienced riders although still die due to mistakes by others & rarely themselves

Not, actually. And that makes it all the more indigestible.

Tink

16th September 2009, 23:34

the true statement is seeing your friends die (your comment on mine)... I do have full confidence in my friends but.... experienced riders although still die due to mistakes by others & rarely themselves

Not, actually. And that makes it all the more indigestible.

I am not sure which part your referring to here.... the confidence, the experience or the mistakes... please clarify?

Coldrider

16th September 2009, 23:54

Which means... never ride in a group... never ride in a kb group ... or just never get on a bike.... I have faith in my friends... as to new friends I would guess anyone that makes a monkey of themselves are not worthy of riding with... online or on the road....

I still would like a first aid cert!
What I stated is group rides make me nervous and worse given the reasons that you & I have both tabled, not that you or anyone should not do group rides if you wish.
I have learnt through experience that i cannot fully control those around me that may place me in danger through various reasons, so i wish not to ride with them. That has worked perfectly so far. (I have close friends that I will not ride with). The fact that someone may die on a ride never even enters my head. Having your boundaries around you while riding is like all things in life, look after numero uno.

Tink

16th September 2009, 23:58

What I stated is group rides make me nervous and worse given the reasons that you & I have both tabled, not that you or anyone should not do group rides if you wish.
I have learnt through experience that i cannot fully control those around me that may place me in danger through various reasons, so i wish not to ride with them. That has worked perfectly so far. (I have close friends that I will not ride with). The fact that someone may die on a ride never even enters my head. Having your boundaries around you while riding is like all things in life, look after numero uno.

touche... yr not a Ulysses member are you?

James Deuce

17th September 2009, 00:03

I am not sure which part your referring to here.... the confidence, the experience or the mistakes... please clarify?
Experienced riders not making mistakes and not being at fault. It's a myth. Confidence is a luxury of youth. Divest thyself of it before it turns into hubris and kills you.

Coldrider

17th September 2009, 00:06

touche... yr not a Ulysses member are you?
Nope, never, and I won't even comment on them.
Do you think I'm an ol coont, (whoops just commented on them).

Gizzit

17th September 2009, 01:43

Tink

17th September 2009, 08:05

Nope, never, and I won't even comment on them.
Do you think I'm an ol coont, (whoops just commented on them).

Not at all but I have heard those comments before about not riding with friends!

Life is for living and looking after number one is my goal, too.

Don't ya hate it when you have to google words you don't understand "hubris" erm.

Beeza

18th September 2009, 20:28

Far too many rules and caveats!

1. Ride zig-zag, biggest newest and fastest bikes start in the front -- tiddlers and oldies in the rear

2. Only two bikes in the zig-zag -- one very near the road-verge, the other very close to the painted line in the road-centre. NOBODY in the centre of the lane.

3. If you've never ridden in a group before, always ride closest to the side of the road. (The "zig")

4. If the person outside of you is going too slow, catch up and overtake him/her. If you've been overtaken, give up being a "zag" and move left to the "zig" side of the road.

5. Whether you're a zigger or a zagger, ALWAYS give yourself enough room that if the person ahead of your falls off, you still have enough time and space to avoid running into the unpredictable fallen mayhem now happening in front of you.

That's all.;)

MadDuck

19th September 2009, 21:55

I won’t name names, I think MT has access to a list of all participants, and some, for various reasons wished to remain anonymous. As you know, trying to get consensus on any given topic from more than a couple of people can be difficult, so for my part I would like to thank everyone for their co-operation, time, effort, ideas and constructive input.

Getting a concensus on here is just about impossible. I admire the time and effort gone into this but I think if the wider community knew who put this together the support would suddenly evaporate.

I dont do KB rides anymore. Group rides I go on are the ones I choose to go to because I know the riders and know their level of skill.

Now that this has been posted and I know it has been stated like a stuck record......the legal implications concern me.

Katman

19th September 2009, 22:02

It's an interesting culture change though. Tried the same approach a few years back and got shouted down fairly aggressively.

The times, they are a'changing Jim.

(And they could sure use your support).

MadDuck

19th September 2009, 22:12

The times, they are a'changing Jim.

Like how?....

Ixion

20th September 2009, 13:25

Far too many rules and caveats!

Wot 'e said.

One knows not whether to sympathise more with the Ride Organiser (who the fuck would be mad enough to organise anything under those terms ?), bowed down under the weight of his rule book and those "legal implications"; or the hapless ride participants grimly maintaining a po-faced silence least the Ride Police convict them of banter, whilst furtively avoiding the attention of the Ride Classification Police, least they be deemed to be only "intermediate" rather than "experienced" and thus ignominiously disqualified fromt he ride and led off in chains. .

What happenned to the idea that going for a ride was fun? And sharing with like minded riders better still.

gunnyrob

20th September 2009, 13:40

Thanks for the guide Noel, a top job by you & all involved.

Mayhaps one could include "riders showing disregard for the safety of others should not be offended if they are told to feck off in no uncertain terms."

We'll see what comments I'll get for posting this in the ATNR! (especially since summer time is almost upon us)

Well done again.

Katman

20th September 2009, 13:42

What happenned to the idea that going for a ride was fun? And sharing with like minded riders better still.

Seems to be too many riders going and spoiling those rides by going and getting themselves killed though.

I'd rather see this site make an attempt to address a problem and run the risk of not getting it absolutely right than simply burying it's head in the sand. Perhaps BRONZ should take note.

(Having said all that, I think this Group Ride Guide is spot on).

FJRider

20th September 2009, 13:46

What happenned to the idea that going for a ride was fun? And sharing with like minded riders better still.

And better still ... sharing with friends ...

James Deuce

20th September 2009, 13:57

And better still ... sharing with friends ...
You need to have some in the first instance.

The Stranger

20th September 2009, 14:43

Wot 'e said.

One knows not whether to sympathise more with the Ride Organiser (who the fuck would be mad enough to organise anything under those terms ?), bowed down under the weight of his rule book and those "legal implications"; or the hapless ride participants grimly maintaining a po-faced silence least the Ride Police convict them of banter, whilst furtively avoiding the attention of the Ride Classification Police, least they be deemed to be only "intermediate" rather than "experienced" and thus ignominiously disqualified fromt he ride and led off in chains. .

What happenned to the idea that going for a ride was fun? And sharing with like minded riders better still.

Rules?
Police?
Convict?
Disqualified?
Where were you looking? You do realise that you have posted ina thread about suggested guidelines.

Legal implications - well, sorry the message is not to your liking, would you like that sugar coated?

FJRider

20th September 2009, 19:06

You need to have some in the first instance.

I guess group rides will still be needed ... by some then ...

Ixion

20th September 2009, 20:58

Change it from "Group Ride" to "Group Race" and I'd agree.

The group *rides* very seldom have any problems. The group *races* are another matter.

carver

22nd September 2009, 20:37

The Stranger

22nd September 2009, 23:12

No offence, but the KB coro loops have been full of

overtaking around the outside.
outbraking up the inside
wheelies between cars
flat out racing between two riders.

the MFSC have done all this, but if we organise a loop can we just accept no responsibility, ask others to read this first, and continue on our merry way?

No offence taken.
Good question though.

As noted, the group ride guide will not suit all rides. People may wish to organise a mystery ride for example, so how you going to explain the route in advance?

Responsibility is not for me to decide, but I believe it is somewhat mitigated when it is made clear to participants what to expect.
So were you to say we are going hell for leather and it's each man for himself (i.e. no pointers or TEC) on some technical roads you have done all you reasonably can to warn off the meek and the slow - the rest is up to the law.

Maha

23rd September 2009, 13:50

A group to me now is, three or four.
Even before this Guideline thing got underway, I had lost interest in organising anymore group rides. The only one I will do from now on is the Annual Muriwai too Mangawhai ride around November, other than that, it will be via pm or txt.

Out of the 16 or so rides I have put together there has been not one incident/accident..not a one! And that has nothing to do with me, I just supply a point A to point B. I think the big thing is, 'Maturity' on my rides so far. We have bikers of all levels and abilities turn up but there is no egos!!

No egos equals a real cool day for everyone.

I took part in the Group Ride Guidelines Forum as did a few that loathe group rides, so everything was well and truely covered and the end result (IMO) given the time and effort that went into it, came out really really good.

caseye

23rd September 2009, 19:10

carver you are right, I've had the misfortune to ride with some real fools on group rides, they do it all wrong and then they behave as if their own shit didn't stink.
Well, it does and so do they, these days I ride with people I know and their friends, people who have been vouched for by those I know.
As Maha said above, no ego's makes for a great days riding with little or no problems caused by fools on bikes.
I will still attend the Westpac rescue and toy runs and things like the Ewan Gilmour ride but even those are generally attended by people out to enjoy a ride not race each other to the death.
Thanks to those who put in the time on the Group Ride Guide, I think it's come out pretty well, but boy has it highlighted some very interesting points:ie, who is responsible if you don't spell it out in triplicate.Do we as riders who want to invite a bunch of mates along, actually have to cover our arses in case OSH or the gubbermint try coming down on us for another riders mistakes?
Seems that large group rides may well become a thing of the past.
Shame if they did, but who wants the headaches?

Mental Trousers

23rd September 2009, 23:07

I took part in the Group Ride Guidelines Forum as did a few that loathe group rides, so everything was well and truely covered and the end result (IMO) given the time and effort that went into it, came out really really good.

There was quite a range of people with varying backgrounds, experience and opinions involved. Some were included specifically because their opinions on group rides did not agree with others. Those individuals were there specifically to promote debate because getting a group of people who agree with each other achieves 9/10ths of fuck all.

Personally, I'm pleased with the entire process and the group of people that participated. The final document was subjected to quite rigorous scrutiny and although some of the people involved disagree with parts of it, none involved have criticized the quality of it.

It's always good to hear from people who have different opinions on some of the content but agree that it was put together properly. Thanks for that Maha.

MadDuck

23rd September 2009, 23:15

I took part in the Group Ride Guidelines Forum as did a few that loathe group rides, so everything was well and truely covered and the end result (IMO) given the time and effort that went into it, came out really really good.

And the end result is you wont organise another of the great rides we have had for years?

Yep...good result. Who made you comply? What did they pay you?

Maha

24th September 2009, 15:42

And the end result is you wont organise another of the great rides we have had for years?

Yep...good result. Who made you comply? What did they pay you?

$150 but I cant speak for the others.
On a more serious note, I stated the only ride I will put on KB, I dont intend to change the format of how its gone over the last 2-3 years, status Quo as far as I am concerned on that point. Cant fix anything that aint broken.

Any other group rides I want to do will be a ....Maha Stealth Ride....off the forum and invite only.

Drew

24th September 2009, 15:55

Some folk were just born for bureaucratic behaviour.

Mental Trousers

24th September 2009, 22:41

And the end result is you wont organise another of the great rides we have had for years?

Yep...good result. Who made you comply? What did they pay you?

That's incredibly short sighted. Maha usually organises rides without putting them on here. He didn't suddenly stop because he contributed to something.

MadDuck

26th September 2009, 20:33

Rules?
Police?
Convict?
Disqualified?
Where were you looking? You do realise that you have posted ina thread about suggested guidelines.

Legal implications - well, sorry the message is not to your liking, would you like that sugar coated?

Yes please. So from now on if someone posts up a ride on KB can they opt out of the rules with a disclaimer? "This ride is not going to follow the "Guidelines of KB"?

That's incredibly short sighted. Maha usually organises rides without putting them on here. He didn't suddenly stop because he contributed to something.

He has said he will no longer organise these rides online but it will now be via PM or text. Seems that KB now has a set of rules so it is now a "club".

Maha

26th September 2009, 20:48

He has said he will no longer organise these rides online but it will now be via PM or text. Seems that KB now has a set of rules so it is now a "club".

Here is what I said.

'Even before this Guideline thing got underway, I had lost interest in organising anymore group rides. The only one I will do from now on is the Annual Muriwai too Mangawhai ride around November, other than that, it will be via pm or txt.'

My decision was made before the Group Ride Forum was set up.

The best rides are the 'smaller number/pm on the day/lets go' rides, thats where my enjoyment comes from now.

The Stranger

26th September 2009, 21:00

Yes please. So from now on if someone posts up a ride on KB can they opt out of the rules with a disclaimer? "This ride is not going to follow the "Guidelines of KB"?

Ah, there are NO rules to opt out of MadDuck.
It's a free world and you will never find me a party to anything that would change that. It goes without saying that people can do what they like.

They are suggested guidelines, which we hope that if followed will make rides safer and thus more enjoyable.
I realise that the liability issue is contentious, however, as I noted elsewhere, it came up during debate and in an attempt to resolve a potential impasse legal advice was sought. In the end I felt it would be remiss of me to omit information which may be pertinent to others.

If the disclaimer you refer to above is an attempt to avoid legal liability it is likely that if tested it would fail.

Virago

26th September 2009, 21:06

Yes please. So from now on if someone posts up a ride on KB can they opt out of the rules with a disclaimer? "This ride is not going to follow the "Guidelines of KB"?

He has said he will no longer organise these rides online but it will now be via PM or text. Seems that KB now has a set of rules so it is now a "club".

What part of "They are not rules" don't you understand?

All this hysterical conspiracy stuff is quite amusing.

The guys at the building supply depot handed me a step-by-step guide to installation when I bought some gib-board recently. Where they part of a dark conspiracy too?

The Group Ride Guide is just that - a guide. You're welcome to use it - or not - as you wish.

_STAIN_

26th September 2009, 21:09

WTF is this still KB or have I dialed up the wrong chanel...oh so PC now ??? next there be a "NO slagging Guidelines Forum" and use for the "F word Guidelines Forum"

MadDuck

26th September 2009, 21:10

Ah, there are NO rules to opt out of MadDuck.
It's a free world and you will never find me a party to anything that would change that. It goes without saying that people can do what they like.
.

Thanks for your response. I fully understand why these guidelines came to be but I truly hope we are able to express a point of view to get a better understanding without getting flamed.

MadDuck

26th September 2009, 21:13

The Group Ride Guide is just that - a guide. You're welcome to use it - or not - as you wish.

No it is not. It is now published on KB as to how to organise a group ride. You cannot ignore the fact that if you chose to organise a ride on here you are bound to this.

I am not saying its wrong or right. I am just trying to understand

Virago

26th September 2009, 21:21

No it is not. It is now published on KB as to how to organise a group ride. You cannot ignore the fact that if you chose to organise a ride on here you are bound to this...

Why?

Go back to my example before about the gib-board installation guide. Was I bound to follow the "rules" that the building depot supplied? Of course not - the guide was supplied in the hope that I might find it useful or helpful. The choice was mine.

This situation is no different.

_STAIN_

26th September 2009, 21:25

No it is not. It is now published on KB as to how to organise a group ride. You cannot ignore the fact that if you chose to organise a ride on here you are bound to this.

I am not saying its wrong or right. I am just trying to understand

+1 you have now place onus, by making rules. The liability side you should have been looking at is aligned with "sport"

MadDuck

26th September 2009, 21:25

Go back to my example before about the gib-board installation guide.

People dont die installing gib board. It still is ok if I have an opinion here ah?

rosie631

26th September 2009, 21:36

The best rides are the 'smaller number/pm on the day/lets go' rides, thats where my enjoyment comes from now.

Tend to agree with you there.

Mom

26th September 2009, 21:37

If the disclaimer you refer to above is an attempt to avoid legal liability it is likely that if tested it would fail.

So, if I organise a ride on here with the rider (disclaimer) "This ride is not going to follow the "Guidelines of KB"", you are saying I am then legally liable if something goes wrong, should it be tested in court? Now I am confused. I thought that there was no liability issues with these guidelines.

_STAIN_

26th September 2009, 21:40

under what is now in place you must grade your ride

MadDuck

26th September 2009, 21:49

under what is now in place you must grade your ride

Some of our best rides have seen new bikers and new KBers just turning up.

I would hate to see this gone.

The Stranger

26th September 2009, 21:49

It still is ok if I have an opinion here ah?

What the hell is your problem MadDuck?
No one has flamed you or rubbished your opinion. People are being patient and entertaining your arguments, but some disagree.
Is it ok if we disagree?
Chill out, debate by all means, but don't post if you don't want a response.

Virago

26th September 2009, 21:54

It still is ok if I have an opinion here ah?

It certainly is. But what about the rest of us?

MadDuck

26th September 2009, 21:55

What part of "They are not rules" don't you understand?

All this hysterical conspiracy stuff is quite amusing.

What the hell is your problem MadDuck?
No one has flamed you or rubbished your opinion.

LOL my opinion...yep I get that loud and clear. Seems I am hysterical and need to pull my head in.

Virago

26th September 2009, 21:57

LOL my opinion...yep I get that loud and clear. Seems I am hysterical and need to pull my head in.

It seems we have people fixated on "rules" which actually don't exist...

The Stranger

26th September 2009, 22:01

So, if I organise a ride on here with the rider (disclaimer) "This ride is not going to follow the "Guidelines of KB"", you are saying I am then legally liable if something goes wrong, should it be tested in court? Now I am confused. I thought that there was no liability issues with these guidelines.

No Mom, that wasn't my intent, my apologies.
Perhaps if you look at my reply to Carver in this thread (post 37) I think is clearer (I hope)
Your last sentence is correct.
That said, it is hoped that potential liability can be mitigated by following the guidelines. There are several elements in there for that purpose.
Just as Virago is free to fix his Gib Board as he sees fit - but he may be on his own if anything goes wrong with the installation.

_STAIN_

26th September 2009, 22:02

It seems we have people fixated on "rules" which actually don't exist...

guidelines / rules are the same thing ...apply, if you now advertise a ride on here

_STAIN_

26th September 2009, 22:05

Some of our best rides have seen new bikers and new KBers just turning up.

I would hate to see this gone.

yes I would find it hard looking at a person and judging their ability to ride.... that they are not under skilled for an advertised ride

MadDuck

26th September 2009, 22:06

guidelines / rules are the same thing ...apply, if you now advertise a ride on here

So Boomer says to Beyond in a thread...hey dude we are doing the Coro Loop Sunday. You coming?

A serious question. Where does that sit if a new rider turns up having seen it on KB?

SixPackBack

26th September 2009, 22:09

So Boomer says to Beyond in a thread...hey dude we are doing the Coro Loop Sunday. You coming?

A serious question. Where does that sit if a new rider turns up having seen it on KB?

Read the small print, that would come under the 'Darwin' clause.

_STAIN_

26th September 2009, 22:10

So Boomer says to Beyond in a thread...hey dude we are doing the Coro Loop Sunday. You coming?

A serious question. Where does that sit if a new rider turns up having seen it on KB?

the power of B have no consept of what a can of worms this is

The Stranger

26th September 2009, 22:10

guidelines / rules are the same thing ...apply, if you now advertise a ride on here

What would you call something that sets out suggested good practice when undertaking a task?

Mom

26th September 2009, 22:12

No Mom, that wasn't my intent, my apologies.
Perhaps if you look at my reply to Carver in this thread (post 37) I think is clearer (I hope)
Your last sentence is correct.
That said, it is hoped that potential liability can be mitigated by following the guidelines. There are several elements in there for that purpose.
Just as Virago is free to fix his Gib Board as he sees fit - but he may be on his own if anything goes wrong with the installation.

"potential liability" worries me frankly. I can mitigate a potential liability, by following these guidelines?

If I post up a group ride on here with no mention of the guidelines I am potentially liable?

Forgive me here too, I am not stirring. I am confused. If I post a pootle up here without being seen to follow these guidelines I am potentially liable for anything that goes wrong?

MadDuck

26th September 2009, 22:16

If I post up a group ride on here with no mention of the guidelines I am potentially liable?

No potential...you are liable.

_STAIN_

26th September 2009, 22:17

What would you call something that sets out suggested good practice when undertaking a task?

the "task" is insuring the attending riders meet the compitency requirement

Squiggles

26th September 2009, 22:18

If I post up a group ride on here with no mention of the guidelines I am potentially liable?

I believe its a case of you've always potentially been <_< & Will always potentially be. However running the ride with elements suggested by the guide may help to mitigate any liability should you find yourself in that position... (my thoughts, happy to be corrected...) This isnt particularly new stuff, ACC and co produced the DVD "Riding in groups" a couple of years back (but overall i reckon they got a pretty crap dvd for their money)

No potential...you are liable.

Find me a case where someone in NZ HAS been found liable under the circumstances of a group ride and i'll eat my hat re "Potential"

Mom

26th September 2009, 22:20

the "task" is insuring the attending riders meet the compitency requirement

So, it would be up to me to ensure the competency of any rider that turned up for a ride I had planned on here?

Surely not?

Mom

26th September 2009, 22:24

However running the ride with elements suggested by the guide may help to mitigate any liability should you find yourself in that position...

Oh that makes it all good, best I go and study up on them then.

Texting is looking better and better to me :yes:

_STAIN_

26th September 2009, 22:28

So, it would be up to me to ensure the competency of any rider that turned up for a ride I had planned on here?

Surely not?

there has always been the chance of someone taking a legal challange against an organiser... but now in coroners court they have a document they can print out and use to say we did not uphold

MadDuck

26th September 2009, 22:28

Texting is looking better and better to me :yes:

Dont text me tomorrow I will be busy riding :2guns:

By myself

Squiggles

26th September 2009, 22:37

So, it would be up to me to ensure the competency of any rider that turned up for a ride I had planned on here?

Surely not?

If you enforced a guideline then wouldnt you be making that call? Else its up to them to decide. Suggesting the ride is/isnt suitable to learners has been going on for ages on rides posted here...
Some rides arent suitable and a rider who isnt up to it shows up... umms and arrs then because they've come to the meeting point decides what the hell i'll go along, they might be fine they might not be (could spoil a beautiful day with an hourlong stop to clean things up). If they'd known the ride wasnt going to suit then they might've picked to go on another...

^^ Long example, badly written but hope it conveys my thoughts :eek:

Oh that makes it all good, best I go and study up on them then.

Texting is looking better and better to me :yes:

Ill take texting to mean inviting a couple of select friends, what be the difference anyway? (imo) Is it still not a good idea to all know where ya going, have someone watching the back yadayada... People seem to hung up over the mention of liability, rather than all the other ideas.

Ixion

26th September 2009, 22:38

There seems to be an enormous amount of scaremongering going on here by the Heaven Born based on this nebulous "legal liability". They (the HB) would have us believe that if someone posts up "I'm riding to XYZ, anyone who wants to tag along is welcome", and said someone tagging along stuffs up a corner and injures self (or worse) and smashes up his bike, then the organiser is off to gaol right fast.

Now, given the size of the bogeyman that is being presented to us, I'd be VERY interested to see this "legal opinion". And know the qualifications of the person giving it. QC is he?

How does he get round one of the principle provisions of the ACC act, that no tort can lie for personal injury?

And I would suggest, that when the "organiser" receives no payment, has no recognised position, and there is no written sign up, that any legal liability is indeed, scaremongering, pure and simple.

If I am on a ride , alone, and I stop at a gas station to fill up, and another bikes pulls up (I've never met him before): the usual "Howdy do". "I'm riding to XYZ". "Why so am I ". And of course, we ride out at much the same time, and (perhaps, if our riding styles are similar) may accompany one another for many miles to our common destination. Now, if I crash while following him, is he liable as "ride organiser" for not having ascertained by skill level, briefed me on many page of stuff etc? Similarly , if he crashes following me, am I likewise liable? What if I deem him not so skilled as I? Am I supposed to tell him "No, you may not ride on this road, because I am riding on it, and you, a mere tyro, are not sufficiently skilled to accompany me". What humbug.

And if he (an I) are so liable, what about if we just catch up to one another on the roa ? never a word said. I've often followed such chance met riders for many leagues.

If the Heaven Born are to be believed, if someone so chance met crashes following me, I'm off to gaol.

I don't believe it. In the immortal words of Mr Bumble, "If the law says that, Sir, the law's an ass". And I don't believe it is such an ass as that.

This whole thing seems a storm in a teacup, whipped up by the Heaven Born.

Virago

26th September 2009, 22:43

Who are these "Heaven Born" anyway? I'd like to meet them.

MadDuck

26th September 2009, 22:43

This whole thing seems a storm in a teacup, whipped up by the Heaven Born.

Mr Ixion you are so correct. Wanna go for a ride?

KB guidelines dont apply

Squiggles

26th September 2009, 22:53

There seems to be an enormous amount of scaremongering going on here based on this nebulous "legal liability".

Agreed, and i believe your post just added to it :laugh: Biker God (Heavenly one surely? XD) That the ideas of many have been collated into a single set of posts is a scary concept for some it seems. (Or at least, they are on the topic of Group Ride Safety but not Removing Helmets, Riding out Tank slappers, or riding at "the Pace".)

Mental Trousers

27th September 2009, 00:08

Who are these "Heaven Born" anyway? I'd like to meet them.
Now don't be like that. You know you can't meet imaginary friends.

What I find interesting is that some people seem to think that The Stranger has the power to make up a set of rules and enforce them. I always thought that Spank and me were the only ones around here who could set the rules but apparently not.

As for legal liability, that was included because 99% of the population have no idea about it so hopefully that advice will help them understand that there shouldn't be any problem.

The Stranger

27th September 2009, 00:50

There seems to be an enormous amount of scaremongering going on here by...

This whole thing seems a storm in a teacup, whipped up by the Heaven Born.

I'm sure you do find Mom and MadDuck quite attractive, who wouldn't, but heaven born, come on.

The explanation of legal liability opens -

"Legal advice obtained is that it is highly unlikely that the organiser of a social group ride could be held accountable for the ride or the actions of others on the ride."

Now I thought that meant there is a remote chance.
Unfortunately, nonetheless there is a chance. I am sorry if people find the concept of being held accountable for their actions scarey, but it is possible and does happen from time to time that people are held accountable for their actions.

So if the heaven born would read the information the storm would quickly pass.

By all means Ixion, engage a QC should you desire to spend the money, I would welcome their opinion.

I shall leave you with a quote from a lawyer from another public thread.

"However, when someone dies - and there have been far too many deaths already on KB-assisted rides - then you can be sure that the coroners will increasingly be focussing on how the rider's deaths occurred, and who organised what. All it needs is for someone's Mummy to say at an inquest, "Oh, Clint from KB organised this and made it too hard for my little Deadikins", and the brown will meet the whirly thing. Coroners can and do recommend criminal prosecutions."

_STAIN_

27th September 2009, 08:10

Now don't be like that. You know you can't meet imaginary friends.

What I find interesting is that some people seem to think that The Stranger has the power to make up a set of rules and enforce them. I always thought that Spank and me were the only ones around here who could set the rules but apparently not.

As for legal liability, that was included because 99% of the population have no idea about it so hopefully that advice will help them understand that there shouldn't be any problem.

you have allowed someone to post a document containing guidelines / rules for conduct of the organizer / group

I love the continued use of these words "shouldn't " "highly unlikely" "remote chance"
you are just acknowledging the huge Grey Area

isn't this kiwibitcher, talk shit "Forum"
time you and spank had a good think about this direction away from running a forum to allowing ride conduct rules to be set in place, but not by you... this doesn't give you an out

if big shit happens I know where you 2 will be standing

The Stranger

27th September 2009, 08:41

you have allowed someone to post a document containing guidelines / rules for conduct of the organizer / group

I love the continued use of these words "shouldn't " "highly unlikely" "remote chance"
you are just acknowledging the huge Grey Area

isn't this kiwibitcher, talk shit "Forum"
time you and spank had a good think about this direction away from running a forum to allowing ride conduct rules to be set in place, but not by you... this doesn't give you an out

if big shit happens I know where you 2 will be standing

_STAIN_ Your posts rarely have a conclusion. There is nothing actually said, and nothing to which one can reply thus they generally appear purely as rantings. Now working on the assumption that your post was an attempt to be constructive, and not just talking shit.

Yes, they have allowed someone free speach, both spankme and MT appear to be very pro free speach. Great isn't it?

Hello, there IS a huge grey area - it's the law FFS, it IS grey. What's your point?

Where exactly will Spank and MT be standing?

Kiwi Graham

27th September 2009, 09:05

For those of you busy throwing your teddy’s around and stamping your feet over these guidelines;

They’re bloody GUIDELINES!!!

You’re all grown ups so make your own mind up………..dont want to follow them?.....then don’t…..your call…… there clearly not for you, so wind your neck in and carry on your merry way with that rushing wind sound being the point travelling way overhead.

The reason there here is because a fair portion of the KB community asked for something to be done (can only assume the teddy throwers weren’t among them) about trying to reduce the number of accidents and tragedies that happen on group rides.

I say again they are guidelines, not rules. They won’t be enforced; they are there, if followed to reduce the chances of something happening to ruin the day for someone (it might even be you). It is to raise awareness of the responsibilities that each and every one of us has to another and remind us the cloak of invincibility can be breached if the worst happens.

None of us go out for a ride with the thought of not returning, however this has happened to an ever increasing number of participants on group rides advertised on this forum. Read the guidelines, follow all if not some of them, hope those you’re riding with do the same and all things considered you should get to do it all again another day.

caseye

27th September 2009, 09:53

While I've said that in principal the guidelines are good ones, I've not had much to say about them since then, in general terms their intent and if implimented by a ride organiser their meaning are quite clearly there to help protect all who attend an organised (by a KB member)ride.
No problem there.
As someone who has had high risk operations going on, on building sites, I can tell you that if there is a set of guidelines and they are not followed, when something goes wrong the first thing OSH look for is this.
Who was responsible for "this" operation.
Are there 'GUIDELINES'?
Were they followed?
Yes I know I said OSH and under the present law they have no jurisdiction in recreational activities where no one is employed or contracted to do/organise something.
BUTT People believe me they are trying hard to get in there and when they do, we as KB Members who now have a written set of "Guidelines" will most certainly be expected to make every attempt to follow them.
Coroners having the power to order enquiries and recomment criminal proceedings agaisnt individuals is a fact, it has been done before and I'm sure will be again.
We are probably damnd if we do and damnd if we don't.
Pesonally I'd rather have some sort of guide than nothing and I do actually think that 'The Ride Guide" is a reasonable document( a couple of exceptions. Organisers assessing other riders? on what basis? are they quialified to do so?, splitting rides into smaller pods, why?)
I've posted ride notices before, lead them, TEC'd them and had one or two unexpected incidents, the possiblity of being made responsible for someone elses mistakes makes my blood boil, it should not even have to be considered, but here we are.
I will continue to do as I have in the past for the social group/s I belong to and to hell with the weather,Um sorry Authorities.
What I think everyone here should be aware of now is this.
"In my humble opinion" Though "The Ride Guide" is not a KB sanctioned/approved document, it is nevertheless a written how too and would become by default what any investigation would refer to in assessing blame or culpability.The gib board fixing guidelines if not followed to the letter will Null and Void any warranty claim by the fixer if it is discovered they were not followed exactly,"Fact"

In conclusion, though our members involved in the conception of "The Ride Guide" did so with the very best of intentions.
We the riders now have a yardstick by which we "can" be measured and found wanting, or not by any official body who thinks they can butt in and have a go at us.
The words and thoughts printed above are simply my observations and opinions based on actual experience of having investigative authorities ( Osh in the example of building sites) involved.

Squiggles

27th September 2009, 10:20

The Stranger

27th September 2009, 12:12

BUTT People believe me they are trying hard to get in there and when they do, we as KB Members who now have a written set of "Guidelines" will most certainly be expected to make every attempt to follow them.

Thank you for what is obviously a considered response.

I too am from the building industry. I did a lot of work in the early stages after the OSH act became law which was used by Master Builders. Whilst it was some time ago, I am somewhat familiar with the principals.

Using your OSH analogy.
Head in the sand is not accepted excuse, neither is ignorance. This is the principal I have adopted here. Some seem to be of the view that ignoring or pleading ignorance will be a better defence, as with OSH, I sincerely doubt that this would be the case.

The Stranger

27th September 2009, 12:24

( a couple of exceptions. Organisers assessing other riders? on what basis? are they quialified to do so?, splitting rides into smaller pods, why?)

The intent is NOT that organisers should assess other riders.
Only that they should suggest the type of rider they expect the ride should be suitable for.
If they are uncertain what type of rider a particular ride would suit, perhaps they should consider NOT running the ride - or err on the safe side.
If a coro loop is billed as suitable for experienced riders only and a noob turns up none the less, having read this, they are holding themselves out to be of suitable experience - you didn't encourage them beyond their abilities, in fact you did the opposite.

Why split into smaller groups? Only to separate those that wish to cruise and take in the scenery from those that wish to get from A to B fastest. It makes little sense having day trippers mixed with fast riders. There is pressure on the day trippers to keep up (in their minds) and they only present a hazard to the fast guys. The principal here is live and let live

Mental Trousers

27th September 2009, 16:21

Why would Kiwibiker want to take on the huge responsibility and major hassles of an organisation? This is a forum where anyone can post anything they like about bikes (provided it isn't offensive or abusive), ie a guide to group rides, a notification of a race event, shit talk about the latest Kamazuda pn1s 1200. Only someone truely insane would consider turning this place into some sort of club or something. Although, if you've got a spare $250,000 a year split between the 2 of us I'm sure we'll happily do just that.

I guess all of that legal advice from the experts wasn't worth jack shit cos you seem to know more about these things than they do. Where exactly would the 2 of us be if shit happened right now??

you have allowed someone to post a document containing guidelines / rules for conduct of the organizer / group

I love the continued use of these words "shouldn't " "highly unlikely" "remote chance"
you are just acknowledging the huge Grey Area

isn't this kiwibitcher, talk shit "Forum"
time you and spank had a good think about this direction away from running a forum to allowing ride conduct rules to be set in place, but not by you... this doesn't give you an out

if big shit happens I know where you 2 will be standing

caseye

27th September 2009, 16:29

"Why split into smaller groups? Only to separate those that wish to cruise and take in the scenery from those that wish to get from A to B fastest. It makes little sense having day trippers mixed with fast riders. There is pressure on the day trippers to keep up (in their minds) and they only present a hazard to the fast guys. The principal here is live and let live "Quoted from The Stranger's post # 91.

__________________OK if the intent is Not that the, an organiser should assess riders then why is it suggested that there be two distinct groups.
We've all ridden on organised rides (no names, no pack drill re by whom or if they're associated with any particular web site or group) where the "fast guys go ahead! LOL boy who are we kidding?
This is the norm, therefore the need to have two distinct groups, by whatever means is obviated by the prcocess of natural selection.Whereby the " fast guys" are already ahead.
"Personal Responsibility" comes into play here and any cruiser(whatever they may be riding) who tries to keep up and fails is at fault, not an organiser if there is an incident.
Please don't get me wrong, the intent of the guide was and I believe is good.
I'm just concerend that people get the right information about what they can and can't expect to have happen if for whatever reason an investigative authority did get involved after a group riding incident.

The Stranger

27th September 2009, 22:59

"Personal Responsibility" comes into play here and any cruiser(whatever they may be riding) who tries to keep up and fails is at fault, not an organiser if there is an incident.

Quite frankly I think it positive that people raise issues that they see.
I accept that my communication may not be as clear as I would like and by raising the issues you see/foresee it affords me the chance to rectify that situation.

You have of course nailed it, personal responsibility does come into play here. My thoughts are that the guide is geared predominantly toward personal responsibility that was my intent anyway. The possibility of liability is not of my making, it just "is" and there is nothing I can do about the fact that it exists.
The first principal of the guide is everyone goes out, enjoys themselves and comes back safe, of course if this happens the rest of the principals are totally irrelevant.
So, with regard to the "fault" you mention above, whoever is at fault doesn't matter, the idea in this case is to facilitate the first principal - everyone to get home safe and sound. It's not about laying blame or covering arse.

The organiser need make no assessment of a rider's abilities to split the group. If the group is large and includes all manner of riders and bikes they may care ask for a show of hands as who is here to "race" and who is here to cruise and/or on a learner ticket and separate the ride into 2 groups accordingly. People can decide on their own what their intent is and which group they care to join.

Nasty

28th September 2009, 05:54

There seems to be a great big hole in understanding here. Legally and in the intentions.

1. The language "should" "May" "wouldn't" "Shouldn't" is entirely appropriate for these.

2. There is no language that is "Shall" "will" etc

Yes this is semantics - but having worked with Standards in this country for a number of years - these are guidelines - they are not a psuedo standard. The difference is often in the definitions.

Standard - something that shall be complied with - is legislated for and has concensus gained through public consultation (quick defn).

Guidelines - something providing guidance in an area where often no consensus can be reached - but is there to ofter guidance for situations. Can be used - but is not legislated to be used.

This is drawn out through the development of the Ambulance Standards - several years ago they were a guideline - recommended two man crewing etc - this could not be achieved but was something to strive for. Reviewed last year and i think they are not published as a Standard.

caseye

28th September 2009, 07:22

Quite frankly I think it positive that people raise issues that they see.
I accept that my communication may not be as clear as I would like and by raising the issues you see/foresee it affords me the chance to rectify that situation.

No worries here, ready willing and able to debate/discuss at any time.
.

You have of course nailed it, personal responsibility does come into play here. My thoughts are that the guide is geared predominantly toward personal responsibility that was my intent anyway. The possibility of liability is not of my making, it just "is" and there is nothing I can do about the fact that it exists.

I totally agree with you.It is a fact, if there is liability and an investigative body can see it, they will try to intervene.

The first principal of the guide is everyone goes out, enjoys themselves and comes back safe, of course if this happens the rest of the principals are totally irrelevant.
So, with regard to the "fault" you mention above, whoever is at fault doesn't matter, the idea in this case is to facilitate the first principal - everyone to get home safe and sound. It's not about laying blame or covering arse.

It does matter , if there is fault, it matters to whoever did organise the ride that they did all they could to prevent such things happening.Further that if in the event of an investigation that they are seen to have done so and that the "at fault rider/s" are then taken to task personally.I'm not interested in arse covering either, but fairness in addressing situations needs to be seen to work, else no one else will ever again organise a ride/picnic ever, ever again.

The organiser need make no assessment of a rider's abilities to split the group. If the group is large and includes all manner of riders and bikes they may care ask for a show of hands as who is here to "race" and who is here to cruise and/or on a learner ticket and separate the ride into 2 groups accordingly. People can decide on their own what their intent is and which group they care to join.

Ok I'll accept that for the purposes of initially splitting a group into "go fast" and scenery cruisers this works.
I'd simply, (as has been done in the past) tell all in attendance to .Once again ride their own ride and allow those who wish to travel quicker than them to pass safely and quickly.

Cheers The Stranger, been a pleasure being able to say whats on the mind without getting a new one ripped.
Don't know if it's made things any clearer for everyone but I'm still of the opinion that the Guide is a good thing.
I believe we now need to nurture it and protect ourselves and it from being corrupted into something that can be used against us, either as individuals or a group.

_STAIN_

28th September 2009, 11:13

_STAIN_ Your posts rarely have a conclusion.

I'm just drawing out the thinkers.

_STAIN_

28th September 2009, 11:15

Cheers The Stranger, been a pleasure being able to say whats on the mind without getting a new one ripped.
Don't know if it's made things any clearer for everyone but I'm still of the opinion that the Guide is a good thing.
I believe we now need to nurture it and protect ourselves and it from being corrupted into something that can be used against us, either as individuals or a group.

and as a result Caseye has stepped to the front with excellent written communication skills. Last line of below post is exactly the concern to Ride Organizers.

The Stranger

28th September 2009, 16:16

and as a result Caseye has stepped to the front with excellent written communication skills. Last line of below post is exactly the concern to Ride Organizers.

So you say the govt may form policy based on my work? I'm flattered.
I never thought the govt gave a rats arse about my opinions.
But I see you do. Thank you.

Listen up John, my next publication includes raising the road toll target to 500. Let's stop all this silly safer journeys stuff and implement that for me now will you. There's a good boy.

boomer

28th September 2009, 17:00

So Boomer says to Beyond in a thread...hey dude we are doing the Coro Loop Sunday. You coming?

A serious question. Where does that sit if a new rider turns up having seen it on KB?

We do meets via txt, so this scenario wouldn't happen. If by chance he did meet me at BP Papakura at 9 am on a sunday, knowing i frequent KB and asked to tag along, being a newb he'd soon fook of because we'd be too slow for him.. problem solved :D

Read the small print, that would come under the 'Darwin' clause.

:lol: I think in all fairness 2 hundred yards down the road said Newbie would be wondering where everyone went to and fook of home !

the power of B have no consept of what a can of worms this is

help me to understand.. :crazy:

Maha

29th September 2009, 18:32

Katman

29th September 2009, 18:40

Now there's a very valid point.

The Stranger

29th September 2009, 19:13

Social Group rides?
Are rides that are organised in any of the KB social groups governed by the guidelines? governed is the wrong word but ya know what I mean. Should social group rides use the guidelines?

In all honesty Maha, There is no need or compulsion to use the guidelines at all ever.
They were instigated for several reasons.
1) An attempt to get everyone home safely.
2) Make for a more enjoyable day for all (no one getting lost, or having to hunt for riders etc)
3) Try and mitigate potential liability should something go wrong.
4) Try and relieve the "blame" on an organiser should something go wrong.
5) Try and ease the burden on an organiser should something go wrong. If someone dies on your ride how are you going to feel, will you wonder if you could or should have done anything differently - I know I would.

Now if none of those reasons float your boat (you see no value in them) or the guidelines don't meet those goals then by all means you are only too welcome to ignore them, it matters me not a wit.

Maha

29th September 2009, 20:09

_STAIN_

29th September 2009, 20:13

Social Group rides?
Are rides that are organised in any of the KB social groups governed by the guidelines? governed is the wrong word but ya know what I mean. Should social group rides use the guidelines?

yes, you are under the KB umbrella and using their communication network so you are obliged to use their documented guidelines to safety, for members.
What Caseye says in Post 88 is true
"In my humble opinion" Though "The Ride Guide" is not a KB sanctioned/approved document, it is nevertheless a written how too and would become by default what any investigation would refer to in assessing blame or culpability.

_STAIN_

29th September 2009, 20:13

So you say the govt may form policy based on my work? I'm flattered.
I never thought the govt gave a rats arse about my opinions.
But I see you do. Thank you.

Listen up John, my next publication includes raising the road toll target to 500. Let's stop all this silly safer journeys stuff and implement that for me now will you. There's a good boy.

I feel you may need to finger read this, it is a "by default document" and now in place could be used against those who chose to ignore "The Guidelines"
"I believe we now need to nurture it and protect ourselves and it from being corrupted into something that can be used against us, either as individuals or a group"

Who is John ?

You are a Mentor ? Do you put yourself forward "in good light" ?

Stange, you clearly do not know me or my experience to speak on this subject.

Katman

29th September 2009, 20:17

The Stranger

29th September 2009, 20:24

But it's an interesting thought.

What of the possibility of someone trying to pin someone for a mishap on a KB Social Club a ride? Would that someone expect that a KB Social Club Ride organised on KB should adhere to KB guidelines?

Perhaps they could expect that if KB had group ride guidelines.
If they did I would imagine that they would be set out or referenced somewhere in the site rules perhaps.
But of course that would be up to Spank or MT if they wanted that.

Mental Trousers

29th September 2009, 21:31

Yes Noel, I asked the question because I dont think it was talked over in the forum? Social groups being a part of this website n' all. Your five points made are very valid. I dont organise rides through a social group. I am now a firm beleiver that, I would rather ride my day with people who I know personally and smaller groups.

The Guide is in no way binding to anybody, anywhere. Anyone is free to read it and ignore if they wish. Including people who don't have a user account on kiwibiker.

yes, you are under the KB umbrella and using their communication network so you are obliged to use their documented guidelines to safety, for members.
What Caseye says in Post 88 is true
"In my humble opinion" Though "The Ride Guide" is not a KB sanctioned/approved document, it is nevertheless a written how too and would become by default what any investigation would refer to in assessing blame or culpability.

Nobody is obliged to do anything. The laws are quite clear that OSH etc have no place in a social get together such as a group of people going for a ride. What you're talking about requires law changes that take years to put through so are purely hypothetical and extremely unlikely to happen. Unless someone votes Labour back in again. Then it's very unlikely.

Perhaps they could expect that if KB had group ride guidelines.
If they did I would imagine that they would be set out or referenced somewhere in the site rules perhaps.
But of course that would be up to Spank or MT if they wanted that.

... and that won't ever happen.

As said many times in the past, Kiwibiker is not a club nor any other form of organisation, incorporated body blah blah. It is a website open to anyone with a focus on motorbike stuff in NZ.

_STAIN_

29th September 2009, 21:49

Nobody is obliged to do anything. The laws are quite clear that OSH etc have no place in a social get together such as a group of people going for a ride. What you're talking about requires law changes that take years to put through so are purely hypothetical and extremely unlikely to happen. Unless someone votes Labour back in again. Then it's very unlikely.

I am quite aware OSH does not normally come into play with social or sport activities. What I and belive Caseye also is saying, is the perspective taken by a court of law or coroner enquiry where there is a published "Ride Guidelines" for the group (KB) user activities.

Cheers for turning my lights back on.

The Stranger

29th September 2009, 23:30

What I and belive Caseye also is saying, is the perspective taken by a court of law or coroner enquiry where there is a published "Ride Guidelines" for the group (KB) user activities.

Cheers for turning my lights back on.

There are NO published "Ride Guidelines" for the group (KB) user activities.

The "group" in the title refers to "group rides" as in a group of individuals out for a ride (any individuals anywhere any time) not KB as a group.
I would have thought that was fairly unambiguous, but perhaps I need to insert a definition for group ride?

caseye

30th September 2009, 06:59

I am quite aware OSH does not normally come into play with social or sport activities. What I and belive Caseye also is saying, is the perspective taken by a court of law or coroner enquiry where there is a published "Ride Guidelines" for the group (KB) user activities.

Cheers for turning my lights back on.

In reply and for clarification I've actually stated that this(the ride guide) is Not a KB Document.

"In my humble opinion" Though "The Ride Guide" is not a KB sanctioned/approved document, it is nevertheless a written how too and would become by default what any investigation would refer to in assessing blame or culpability.

It was published on KB by a KB'er,after consultation with many like minded individuals in order to provide as many other like minded people as possible with something to refer too.
KB's forums are here for all to use and post on.As I did when saying we, (KB'ers and I should have said any other motorcycle riding individuals) who have access to these forums now have a guide that we should nurture and protect ,that it is not corruped and used against us.
My intention in outlining what an investigative body what do with the guide was not to associate it with KB but to show how the guides existance would provide THEM literally with a guide.
I still believe the guide is good common sense and that it's existance is a credit to all of those involved in bringing it together for the benefit of all other motorcyclists.

Transalper

30th September 2009, 11:47

This thread seems to be stuck in an endless loop.

Warr

30th September 2009, 12:07

This thread seems to be stuck in an endless loop.
Would be better if the author had the ability to edit / delete & close the thread :)

The Stranger

30th September 2009, 12:37

This thread seems to be stuck in an endless loop.

Well yes it does sir.
There is an issue here however.

If there is ANY liability arising from The Group Ride Guide (which I sincerely doubt there will be) I do not want that falling on KB, Spankme or MT.

I will not allow people to think the guide is in some way officailly KB sanctioned.
I will do everything I can to ensure people are clear on this point, no matter how difficult it is for them to grasp.

Katman

30th September 2009, 13:25

I have been a whole-hearted supporter of the Group Ride Guide from the outset and continue to be so.

It's those outside of KB though, who may well attempt to find a scapegoat, that the site needs to ensure it's protected from.

Mental Trousers

30th September 2009, 16:43

Any attempt to hold KB accountable because of something a member posts on the forums is running in the exact opposite direction of the established precedents. Those precedents concern ISP's/web hosts etc who provide a space for customers to do what they want, including running forums for posting material like a guide. Those organisations can not be held accountable if someone posts a howto for making nuclear bombs. It's the exact same principle here.

aff-man

30th September 2009, 17:13

Round and round the merry go round...

I may be showing my age but I remember a time when someone posted they were going for a ride and whoever turned up turned up.

since then the "group ride" fiasco has been warped from a shits and giggles blat to what would now be classified as sanctioned events with all the hand holding and stress involved.
I can't even imagine the ramifications of trying to organise another "waikato rally" (some of you fella's would remember that one)

Not that this is a bad thing it does give people a basic understanding of their own responsibilities but it is also formalising any ride advertised on this site, whether that be the intended purpose or not.

I may not be the most experienced rider out there and hell could be mistaken for 18 but I have had my fare share of rides, from when they are fantastic to when the go wrong. I think less and less people are going to be inclined to put anything relating to weekend fun up on the site for fear of not only "legal issues" but also because they could get shit from the community itself for "not following the guide".

And so we go full circle from going on rides with a mate who knows a mate who knows a mate, to going with randoms from the site and meeting new people and such, back to just riding with those you know...

Dunno if his is the right place for this and mods do with it what you will but knowing some of the brain trust and the result this sort of document could produce thought i'd say something.

Katman

30th September 2009, 17:21

I think less and less people are going to be inclined to put anything relating to weekend fun up on the site for fear of not only "legal issues" but also because they could get shit from the community itself for "not following the guide".

Maybe that's not such a bad thing.

FJRider

30th September 2009, 17:45

If on any group ride anywhere in NZ, organised by anyone in NZ, and a person ... or persons, that injure ... or endanger ... or damage, any other person/property in the course of that ride. Can be prosecuted under existing laws of this country.

To think that the person that posted on KB that they are going for a ride on a particular day, and would those wanting to ride with them ... meet up at ... could in any way, be held responsible for any dickhead behaviour (or results of such) of any person doing that ride.... is totally ludicrous.

Katman

30th September 2009, 18:00

To think that the person that posted on KB that they are going for a ride on a particular day, and would those wanting to ride with them ... meet up at ... could in any way, be held responsible for any dickhead behaviour (or results of such) of any person doing that ride.... is totally ludicrous.

Call me old fashioned but I prefer the days when group rides were organised quietly between a small group of mates who knew and respected each others riding.

The idea, of throwing a random bunch of motorcyclists together in a testosterone fueled (for the males anyway - don't know what fuels lesbians:whistle:) GTA Coro Loop Edition 'ride', freaks me.

FJRider

30th September 2009, 18:06

Call me old fashioned but I prefer the days when group rides were organised quitely between a small group of mates who knew and respected each others riding.

The idea of throwing a random bunch of motorcyclists together in a testosterone fueled (for the males - don't know what fuels lesbians:whistle:) GTA Coro Loop Edition 'ride' freaks me.

I must be a little old fashioned too ... :2thumbsup

I'm not sure about Lesbians either ... I've been trying to get inside (the head) of one ... any ... for some years now... :whistle:

caseye

30th September 2009, 18:16

I'd just like them to consider me one! I feel like one nowadays , what with equal rights and all the telly show about them.

_STAIN_

30th September 2009, 20:33

PrincessBandit

30th September 2009, 20:36

I'd just like them to consider me one! I feel like one nowadays , what with equal rights and all the telly show about them.

Riiiiiight...... :eek5:

The Stranger

30th September 2009, 20:49

Kiwi Graham

1st October 2009, 05:31

well have finished now talking to all the ride organizers I know in the Wellington area. as suspected only one who is also a mentor had been approached re ride guide.
Guide put in pace for organizers without seeking any input from them... well leaving this thread now, and in true KB style... you thought I was serious :)

Mate, I have no idea how many were invited to contribute but going by the responses and contributions from those that were and did there were many. The spectrum included mentors (some), recognised experienced riders, people who have organised rides via this forum, new riders, people from the industry, people known to generate debate.......the list goes on.
The various topics, debates and discusions went on for pages and pages and the whole process took months! We sort legal advise and had it scrutinised to ensure the intent was to guide, not dictate or undermine anybody wishing to continue organising group rides.

I think it would be fair to say it was comprehensively covered.

I say again this is a 'guide' use it if you wish

Mental Trousers

1st October 2009, 15:21

38 were asked to take part

caseye

1st October 2009, 17:34

Thats a large group of people to get any sort of concensus from, well done.

StoneY

1st October 2009, 17:50

I must be a little old fashioned too ... :2thumbsup

I'm not sure about Lesbians either ... I've been trying to get inside (the head) of one ... any ... for some years now... :whistle:

I'd just like them to consider me one! I feel like one nowadays , what with equal rights and all the telly show about them.

If I get re-incarnated as a female I will definitely be a lesbian ;)

BuckBuck#1

7th October 2009, 10:22

Absolutely.

Thoroughly wasted on an "organisation" like KB. Too many disparate riding styles, attitudes and egos.

Find people you enjoy, who ride like you do and stay away from KB group rides.

KB's not a club of like-minded people with similar attitudes to life and riding. It's as far from that as you can get and still have a common interest.

Still, if the initiative saves one person from a head-on with a car over the next 12 weeks it was worthwhile.

It's an interesting culture change though. Tried the same approach a few years back and got shouted down fairly aggressively.

I have gone and booked a ticket, back row in about the middle, so I can see the full screen, and guess what is showing:

The Cruisie Wednesday Night Ride -TCWNR Wellington.

J D I recall moons ago we did an organised group ride around the Wellington harbour and bays, a worthwhile and rewarding opportunity for newbie riders.

It is a shame that in a few short years the tide has washed in and out and left a lot of debris. I hope that those who ride on TCWNR do ride carefully and responsibly, though I have my doubts that this will be matched by a similar attitude, going by the banter appearing now in that TCWNR forum thread.

buellbabe

7th October 2009, 11:00

Call me old fashioned but I prefer the days when group rides were organised quietly between a small group of mates who knew and respected each others riding.

The idea, of throwing a random bunch of motorcyclists together in a testosterone fueled (for the males anyway - don't know what fuels lesbians:whistle:) GTA Coro Loop Edition 'ride', freaks me.

My thoughts exactly.
The one and only publicly 'advertised' KB group ride I have been on was early last year(I think?) and by my standards it was a huge group of bikes.

After Whitianga when we started getted into some nice stuff Blackbuell and I just stopped and let everyone go past, then we waited a bit longer and then we continued on the ride. I do NOT like riding in huge groups of 'unknowns'. Thats why I don't do it.

I can understand the groaning about the perceived PC aspect of these suggested guidelines but given the verbal sparring that goes on before some of the rides and the idiot riding that happens then is it such a bad thing to offer up some guidelines??? They are not law. They are there for consideration and each individual will still make their own choice...

Oh and if you think how can she comment on the riding if she has only done one KB big group ride? Well I can read and the 'aftermath' reading is pretty eye-opening...