Group ride sticky

[Crisis management]

In the survival skills section (did I get that right?) there is now a group ride sticky obviously about how to organise and participate in a group ride......I've had a read and can't say as it thrills me and puts me off organising rides a bit.
Worth a read and a think about as the fact it exists possibly puts the onus of responsibility (and liability) more on the organiser. Having spelled out how rides should be organised I wonder if that then makes the organiser more liable ie: can't claim to not have any knowledge of how a ride should be organised if its written down in the forum?
Personally, I prefer the loose arrangements we have had to date.

Is there a disclaimer we can use?

[MXNUT]

I just wont read that sticky and will go with the ignorance is bliss theory ( has worked ok for me so far ) :Police:.

[rosie631]

I think the arrangement we have now is fine. Feel like a ride post it up and meet up with some like minded people. I've been on a few informal rides from here and there have been no problems. Life has too many rules already. Some of us ride to get away from that. :chase::chase:

[CookMySock]

The only person responsible is the nut on the bars.

Steve

[cooneyr]

As organiser of a few rides now the legal liability bit scares me a little but it would seem that our informal arrangements are probably OK. I just make a point of sticking to known legal roads or get permission to cover myself from that perspective.

When it comes to keeping the group together etc that can be more than a little stressful. Most of the people I normally ride with have an understanding and use one of two methods:
Lots of Gates = leapfrog, you open a gate you close it.
Open going = you keep an eye out for the person behind and if you slow down the person in front should too. If gates are few and far between then regroups are at gates.

We also tend to regroup every hour or so for a rest stop depending on the nature of the ride i.e. less stops if a more endurance based rides with few known riders.

Things that I find stressful as a ride organiser are
When somebody takes off in the lead and they have no idea where they are going
If somebody gets lost (really has no idea where they are going) and for some bizarre reason and they keep ploughing on making them very hard to find
When somebody buggers off during a ride and they don't let the others know

The common issue here is that people just don't bother to learn the route and then don't acknowledge that (in their own heads). The easiest way around this is that the larger the group the more cruisy the ride with more regroups. Problem with this is that you generally get no where fast.

I reckon that the roadies methods are not the best for Adv rides so I'm keen to hear how do other ride organisers run their adv rides? Corner Man system? What else?

Cheers R

P.S. Maybe I take on too much responsibility but having had to rely on others to get me on a chopper and out to safety I'm a strong believer in looking out for each other (doesn't remove the need for personal responsibility though!!!).

[junkmanjoe]

if your not happy about going on a ride DONT GO.
you think its out of your league......... DONT GO
there is no way im going to be held liable for a rider on my arranged rides.
you ride at your own risk.

as i arrange a ride, we wait for slower riders, and i stay back and help the less experienced, and make sure last rider comes through.

cant do more than that..

i go on arranged rides at my own risk.
every time i leave home on my bike is at my own risk.

on some of the D.O.C roads i use, i have to sign a waver, that removes any responceabilty on behalf of D.O.C. in other words...you agree to enter at your own risk, and your own safety.

my thoughts...

JMJ

[Motu]

Blame it on Iain sounds like the best contingecy plan to me.

[Virago]

Dealing with RULES !!!...

Rules? What rules...?

Get yourself a dictionary and look up the word "Guidelines"...:niceone:

[Laxi]

the informal rides don't seem to be a problem, as we tend to choose who we ride with, it's the bigger rides that I think its aimed at. I dont think a few guidelines are gonna hurt anyone, still dont know if it will stop people turning up to a ride that their inexperianced for though

[JATZ]

I dont think a few guidelines are gonna hurt anyone, still dont know if it will stop people turning up to a ride that their inexperianced for though

Best way to get some experience is to turn up and ride with people who actually know what they're doin.

[Transalper]

I think it applys more to the sealed road rides.
When I read it I couldn't stop thinking of all the incidences that seemed to happen in the Christchurch Wednesday Evening Cruises over the last year or so.
It seemed to fit well with the way I remember them, and in fact repeats a lot of what the organizes of that run tried to implement to get people to get a grip.

Never seen a need to do anything different to what we already do in ADV rides. We already look out for each other etc etc.

[Laxi]

Best way to get some experience is to turn up and ride with people who actually know what they're doin.

fair call! if they're willing to slow down and baby sit you, other wise what tends to happen is a noob pushes his limits trying to keep up, happens on too many rides

[dino3310]

fair call! if they're willing to slow down and baby sit you, other wise what tends to happen is a noob pushes his limits trying to keep up, happens on too many rides

they dont baby sit me they just have a coffee at each stop waiting for me to catch up.

there are noobie rides out there but just not that often

[Laxi]

I'm not saying that inexperianced riders shouldn't turn up, just that having a few guide lines can only help them understand whats required from them to keep it a safe ride

[warewolf]

Adventure rides are generally better than the road rides for riding sensibly and looking out for each other. Helping/encouraging n00bs & regular re-groups is kinda the normal thing to do.

Pretty sure I read those rules/guidelines whatever you want to call em, can't say they were terribly memorable.

[Waihou Thumper]

ADV rides, riders etc and forums groups etc...
When we make mistakes, have mishaps, get lost, run out of gas, even if the worst happens and we fall off? (does that happen to ADV riders?) Never noticed......
Anyway, I have seen this and it is bordering on the ridiculous.....
Look, as Joe says, don't like the ride, don't go, company? Don't go....
We ride for the enjoyment of riding, ride for the enjoyment of riding with mates, having fun....
Lest's keep it that way...
We are all known here, lets wlecome the new rider, lets enjoy!
I have had the best of times here falling, chatting, picking up, dusting off and shooting the shit....Lets not ruin it!:Police:

[Waihou Thumper]

I just wont read that sticky and will go with the ignorance is bliss theory ( has worked ok for me so far ) :Police:.

There is also one about tyres, I choose my own! as with the company, the rides and the adventures....

[Howie]

I think the sticky is meant as a guide for people, who may be new to organising rides, and for people who are new to group riding etc. I don’t have a problem with the guidelines being there. If you as the ride initiator/ organiser choose to use them, or not is upto you.

Most of the Adv rides I see being organised, seem to be well discussed in a thread before they happen, So all of the riders on the ride should know the sort of terrain being ridden through,

I believe in personal responsibility, but I also believe in looking out for those I’m riding with, Which seems to happen on most rides I’ve been on. The Adventure group as a whole probably observes a lot of these guidelines without even thinking about them. Most of the larger rides tend to end up with someone as tailend charlie, and the smaller ones tend to stay closer together.

As to the organisers responsibility to the group. I think there is no way a organiser should be held responsible for any incidents on a public road, or off road on tracks etc, as that is where personal responsibility comes in. If Kiwibiker site is worried about ride organisers/ KB being held legally responsible for anything that happens on a organised ride. Then maybe some sort of legal disclaimer should be added to calender events to make ALL Riders aware they are responsible for there own safety, and ride at there own risk. As to helping out in making sure everyone is out of the track, and able to get home after breakdowns, or crashes that is more of the sort of thing I would expect an organiser to be aware of, not saying it is their job to do it, but more an awareness of what is happening on the ride that they organised.

[Rosie]

To me the guidelines seem broadly similar to the way a lot of the overnight ADV rides are organised around here.

The guidelines could be particularly useful if you were organising something like this year's MMMMM for the first time (30 odd riders, reasonable distances, remote areas), and needed some pointers on how to keep everything running smoothly.

[young1]

The Naki rides that Phil and I organise are informal rides, a group gets together and rides. But saying that on the MAPMEA ride this year I will again be tail end charlie (like I was on the TTTTT ride last year) but I will be more prepared this time with a basic first aid kit just in case it is needed.

We also take it upon ourselves to keep count of bikes at each stop to make sure we haven't lost anyone over a bank etc. Of course it doesn't help if someone decides to head home without telling anyone!

I also think that for anyone organising an "informal" ride it is important to make sure that people know what sort of terrain is being ridden. I have had a couple of messages asking about this and have let them know. I believe in the no surprises rule.

So remember to sign up for the MAPMEA ride, not long now.

[CookMySock]

P.S. Maybe I take on too much responsibility but having had to rely on others to get me on a chopper and out to safety I'm a strong believer in looking out for each other (doesn't remove the need for personal responsibility though!!!).In real life, everyone pitches in and things work out. I have only organised one ride, and I typed up a detailed plan including maps and hazard identification. Not one person in the group read it. :rolleyes:

Steve

[cooneyr]

....We also take it upon ourselves to keep count of bikes at each stop to make sure we haven't lost anyone over a bank etc. Of course it doesn't help if someone decides to head home without telling anyone!...


In real life, everyone pitches in and things work out. I have only organised one ride, and I typed up a detailed plan including maps and hazard identification. Not one person in the group read it. :rolleyes:

Steve

You guys just identified two of the things that cause frustration/difficulty - people leaving the ride without telling others and people not bothering to learn, even roughly, where we are going.

Almost all the rides I've been on go of without a hitch because people are aware of others around them and keep an eye out, but I'm using this thread as an opportunity to highlight to people who have never organised a large group ride that it can be a bit stressful - i.e. play the game and think of all the others on the ride.

Cheers R

[Crisis management]

My original concern with this is the mention in the sticky of the possibility of legal liability for any bad outcome on the ride, I would suggest you read that part.
Now, it is stated that there is only a very small likely hood of a legal liability but a recent involvment with a maritime investigation has made me far more aware of how people investigating an incident / accident look at those responsible / involved. My principle concern is that having the Group ride sticky well advertised on the forum it makes it a de-facto "rules for how the rides will be organised", you can't claim you didn't know.
I want to be able to post up a date and rough route without having to spend days pissing about with crossing T's and dotting I's and worrying about the consequences of losing some noddy down a bank, a very real possibility on our rides.
I also want to be able to encourage n00bs along without having to sight there licences and check their bikes over.....

I'm just not convinced we can ignore the sticky and carry on, we may be leaving ourselves open for liability at some stage, I unfortunately don't have any suggestions of how best to address this.

except start posting under Tri-boys name

[CookMySock]

[...] I'm using this thread as an opportunity to highlight to people who have never organised a large group ride that it can be a bit stressful - i.e. play the game and think of all the others on the ride.I think on the road, that level of care is not warranted. If someone misses a turn and ditches the group, then they can buy a pie at the servo, gas up, and find their own way home - consequences = zero, and certainly not your problem.

If they go down some ditch somewhere, then that is not remotely the fault of the organised ride. Refer nut on bars comment. People absolutely must not place any faith in "the group" for their safety on the public roads. Their faith must be in their own ability and navigation, or else they shouldn't be there.

In the bush, hours from nowhere with no support - completely different. The team stays together, and all sorts of safety nets stay in place.

Steve

[CookMySock]

My principle concern is that having the Group ride sticky well advertised on the forum it makes it a de-facto "rules for how the rides will be organised", you can't claim you didn't know.I agree. The forum has possibly caused much more damage than it has done good.

The last thing we need is set or create some legal precedent that can be held against us.

Steve

[That looks like fun]

Speaking as a person who was wiped out by a tosser on a road ride :( I thought the guidelines had some valid points.
I was taken out by a clown who overtook on the left when all the bikes ahead of him (including me) were slowing down. Result, 2 bikes written. The guy who caused it all rode his home. The third bike involved had been passed on the left (by a bike sliding along the ground until it ran into mine) and tried to avoid running over my bike and me (who were now also sliding along the ground). Unfortunatly for him when my riderless bike struck the side of the vehicle we had all (almost all of us) been slowing down for. It bounced back onto the road in front of him.
So, overtaking on the left, big NO in my book :Playnice:
On the plus side I got top trade in price and brought an ADV bike :banana:
General findings with ADV Riders, generally much better behaved and courteous :2thumbsup. Got overtaken by one clown on the Motu during Clintz ride who couldnt be buggered allowing for others level of inexperience :oi-grr:
Watched 2 guys on the Waikato ride who rode like mad men on the seal sections then held everyone up on the gravel. :argh:
So you 3 guys (you know who you are) lift ya game, your letting the team down :girlfight: The rest of ya, as you were :calm:
One simple guideline I would like to see for ADV rides, If someone catches up to you, they are travelling faster than you, get out of there way and let them pass
You may now appluad politley :lol:

[Squiggles]

I think on the road, that level of care is not warranted.

You'd leave a mate in the ditch then? :oi-grr:

[NordieBoy]

One simple guideline I would like to see for ADV rides, If someone catches up to you, they are travelling faster than you, get out of there way and let them pass

If someone catches up to you they should have the skills to pass safely.

Don't risk your safety just to let someone past.

[Oscar]

If someone catches up to you they should have the skills to pass safely.

Don't risk your safety just to let someone past.

+1

About 100 Years ago when I was an NZACU Steward - the rule was that it was contingent on the person making the pass to do it safely.

[johannvr]

my 2c...

Have licence, know that a bike is supposedly a dangerous toy, go on any ride (organised, informal, alone - doesn't matter) knowing all of that, have the bonce to be careful and take care, so if & when I do fall off like I have more than once (or even something more serious), the liability is ALL mine.

// 2c opinion off //

[Padmei]

I usually start off riding with a group but eventually get tired of the other riders & route & choose a different way - just to keep things interesting;)

[JATZ]

I usually start off riding with a group but eventually get tired of the other riders & route & choose a different way - just to keep things interesting;)


:rofl: :rofl:

[Woodman]

This does pose some questions about etiquette on an adv ride that I think some noobs (and me) do wonder about.

For example :

Will you offend someone by passing them (anywhere)?
How close is too close to follow ?
Do you have to stop just cos everyone else does?

There are other things of course and i don't wanna complicate things but there are some unwritten rules out there that not everyone knows.

Your opinions.........

[bart]

Hi, my names Bart and I'm a speedaholic.

OK, I'm no angel. I get caught up in the moment, and ride like an idiot at times, but every time I ride, it's totally at my own risk.

I used to ride road bikes, and after a while, I refused to ride in groups larger than about 6. Rides like the Coast to Coast put me right off. Too many different skill levels and bike sizes, and the following distances are far too close. How there aren't more accidents amazes me.

However, with Adventure Riding, most of these problems don't exist. Riders are more spread out and generally better behaved. There are always plenty of stops to regroup, and more comraderie. I think ADV atracts a slightly more mature following also.

My only gripe is the occasional rider spending a little more time than they have to in the right hand wheel track. My biggest fear is having to scrape someone off the bullbar of some farmers 4WD.

[The Stranger]

My original concern with this is the mention in the sticky of the possibility of legal liability for any bad outcome on the ride, I would suggest you read that part.
Now, it is stated that there is only a very small likely hood of a legal liability but a recent involvment with a maritime investigation has made me far more aware of how people investigating an incident / accident look at those responsible / involved. My principle concern is that having the Group ride sticky well advertised on the forum it makes it a de-facto "rules for how the rides will be organised", you can't claim you didn't know.
I want to be able to post up a date and rough route without having to spend days pissing about with crossing T's and dotting I's and worrying about the consequences of losing some noddy down a bank, a very real possibility on our rides.
I also want to be able to encourage n00bs along without having to sight there licences and check their bikes over.....

I'm just not convinced we can ignore the sticky and carry on, we may be leaving ourselves open for liability at some stage, I unfortunately don't have any suggestions of how best to address this.

except start posting under Tri-boys name

Ok, for a start, ignorance is/was not bliss. It just feels like it is all.
Ignorance is NOT an effective defence in a criminal case and would be highly unlikely to succeed in a civil case either.
Anyone game to try it with say the HSE act for example?

It was a difficult decision whether or not to raise this issue. It looks like scaremongering. That's not the intent. I really wouldn't like to hear of someone facing charges and me sitting here knowing it was a real possibility but I just shut the fuck up.
If we take the case of the woman who organised the bicycle race down Christchurch way (yes I know its not relavent to us from a legal perspective) however, it is rumoured to have cost her $150,000.00 to defend - and she lost. If you won you are likely to AT BEST get 2 thirds of your costs back - at best. How many people have that sort of money kicking around for just such an eventuality?
So I put it out there so as people may chose to make an informed decision - or not, as they see fit, not as I see fit (were I to keep it to myself).

Legal advice was that a problem could arise where for example a noob is killed and the parents of such noob decided that you (who ever you are) as an experienced rider should well have known that a given path, route, road etc was unsuitable for noobs, but you chose to lead the ride there all the same. This could well be a private manslaughter charge much as was bought by the family of the guy killed by the cop a short while ago. As I illustrate above, it need not succeed to ruin your day. But who knows how a jury would find?

I can't be arsed with an argument or a shit fight, I'm just putting it out there as it was put to me for you to decide.

For my money, I would be very sure I advertised the type of ride and the experience level of (skill) the rider it would suit.

[Laxi]

surely having these guidelines would help a legal situation, if for example you organise a ride, attach a link to thread, and post the ideal experiance level, then it puts responsibility on the induvidual to decide if it's for them or not?

[The Stranger]

surely having these guidelines would help a legal situation, if for example you organise a ride, attach a link to thread, and post the ideal experiance level, then it puts responsibility on the induvidual to decide if it's for them or not?

That is the intent.
If noob chooses to turn up for a techincal/dangerous ride against the advise of the organiser (by the organiser stating it is so) you can't stop them, but it's going to make it that much harder for the blame to land on the organiser.

[The Stranger]

That is the intent.


Actually, that didn't come out right, there's lots of intents.
The primary one being everyone comes home having had a great time.

[That looks like fun]

Slept intent :banana: Woke up and rode me scooter :banana:
Nordie boy you are quite right, if someone decides to pass someone they should have the skills to do it :2thumbsup However should the person being passed also have some skills? As I have no idea of the pattern of the noodles in the other riders helmet :buggerd: and as some of the roads we ride are narrow and windy with short safe passing areas, can I please be allowed take some responsibility for my own safety and the enjoyment of other riders by oh... lets say I just stick to the left and button off, wave them past (safely of course) then rockin on :2thumbsup.
Its the simple things in life I enjoy, now where did I leave that retard :hug:

[Kickaha]

If we take the case of the woman who organised the bicycle race down Christchurch way (yes I know its not relavent to us from a legal perspective) however, it is rumoured to have cost her $150,000.00 to defend - and she lost.

That was later overturned - she won (still cost her though)

[Crisis management]

For my money, I would be very sure I advertised the type of ride and the experience level of (skill) the rider it would suit.

Ok, I thought this would be the outcome, I appreciate the intent of the sticky and hopefully it will prove to be a useful means of clarifying the experience level required for a ride.

For our rides how are we going to measure the level of riding ability required?
Public roads: Slow, Medium or Anthrax?
Private property / tracks: Bike size and easy, medium or where's the helicopter?

Is this information going to be enough?

All the upcoming rides, I assume you organising individuals have a plan for this?

[NordieBoy]

Easy, medium, EPIRB?

GS, KLR, DR, XR, KTM?

E-08, TKC80, D606, K760?

[BiK3RChiK]

That was later overturned - she won (still cost her though)

You can bet it cost her more than money too:( I can surmise that none of us would want to be put in this position, hence, I can see the reason for the sticky. I also see Crisis Managements point of it putting him off organising group rides.......

[The Stranger]

You can bet it cost her more than money too:( I can surmise that none of us would want to be put in this position, hence, I can see the reason for the sticky. I also see Crisis Managements point of it putting him off organising group rides.......

Shit yeah, I bet the stress robbed her of many good years of her life. But again I would stress the case isn't really relavent to us from a legal perspective.
As to being put off organising rides.
Well, reality is almost ANYTHING you do in life, done without due care can land you in the shit, but usually doesn't right.
So, nothing has really changed there and the suggestions put forward are in general only common sense and mostly aimed at letting people know what to expect. Only a very little extra work is involved to implement them and most of that is done before the ride starts.
So not that I have organised many group rides, but it sure as hell wouldn't put me off.

[Waihou Thumper]

The Tramping club that organises the weekend tramp? Or the little old ladies out my way that walk the bush walks every Tuesday or Wednesday...
Where does the fun stop being fun and all we are thinking about is the consequences all the time. It does sort of burst the bubble of the urge, the looking forward to the ride, walk, event etc.
If we have more than two riders, then does the onus rest on the poor guy at the front that is leading? Or as a whole we all take responsibilities for route, petrol stops and wee wee stops..?
I agree with some of the posts, as a whole the ADV group is more mature, a little closer in knowing one another and we do take care of one another out there, from falls, running out of gas and helping to brush off the dust from my arse and even straightening my indicators and duct taping it all together to get me home safely!

I rode on an organised poker run a few years ago, there wasn't any planned route, certainly nobody would have noticed me or anyone gone from the road.....ie fallen off or similar. I wouldn't ride in one of those again if you paid me, however ADV rides and the ones we all enjoy on here, I will keep coming back and back, we are all a great bunch on the whole and if the PC world starts closing in on this small and limited amount of fun we can still have then it would be sad....
I would rather sell the KTM and get a KLR......:2thumbsup

Well, you cannot be srious all the time with these posts, there has to be a little dig somewhere right?

Keep it all coming, it is stirring the pot a little and I do think there are a lot of thoughts out there that are constructive and well put. Please don't stop organising fun rides, great tours and social get togethers...
We aren't really organised, we just happen to bew travelling the same routes most of the time anyway.....:Playnice:NZ is a small country afterall, there aren't enough roads to 'NOT' meet a biker or follow thirty others through the back of Waikaremoana all going the same way..

[The Stranger]

Ok, I thought this would be the outcome, I appreciate the intent of the sticky and hopefully it will prove to be a useful means of clarifying the experience level required for a ride.

For our rides how are we going to measure the level of riding ability required?
Public roads: Slow, Medium or Anthrax?
Private property / tracks: Bike size and easy, medium or where's the helicopter?

Is this information going to be enough?

All the upcoming rides, I assume you organising individuals have a plan for this?

Not being an adventure rider, I must apologise and plead ignorance here.

From my intro post
"It is anticipated that the guidelines can not cover every situation nor should all be applicable to every ride. But please, let people know what to expect so that they may make an informed decision as to whether they should attend the ride or not."

That is the key as I see it. People need to know what to expect so they may make an informed decision. If you have done this the decision and thus responsibility is then theirs not yours. The suggestion about using experience is about what the rider should expect and not a hard and fast thing. There are other ways to convey what they should expect - describe the terrain perhaps?

[Waihou Thumper]

Not being an adventure rider, I must apologise and plead ignorance here.

From my intro post
"It is anticipated that the guidelines can not cover every situation nor should all be applicable to every ride. But please, let people know what to expect so that they may make an informed decision as to whether they should attend the ride or not."

That is the key as I see it. People need to know what to expect so they may make an informed decision. If you have done this the decision and thus responsibility is then theirs not yours. The suggestion about using experience is about what the rider should expect and not a hard and fast thing. There are other ways to convey what they should expect - describe the terrain perhaps?

We all ride to our own abilities. The Sunday fundraising trail ride on Smiths' farm. Kids, adults, Mums and all and sundry turn up. We ride, we fall off and break bones.....I haven't really heard of anyone claiming that we shouldn't be doing this because of the terrain, we let peole know by arrows, markings etc and if you choose to do it then you do. (trail rides)
AND, not all make you sign indemnity forms, escpecially the fundraisers....
I know GNCC, Trail Blazers etc will have waivers and things..They have done this for a few years, just got more serious about it I guess due to the jaded past events like these have had.....

Are you saying that because I or someone might not explain that it is slippery and steep in parts I am resposible for the possibility of that person falling or injuring them selves?
Describing the terrain, well, 'it is steep and knarly', this would just get all of us fizzing and excited about being here....:lol:

Make it a 'nana' course and no water or mud, shit, then we may as well just ride to a cafe in town and look like ADV riders...
Oh, hang on, that is an organised tea party then, we might have to notify the council for resource consent.....:girlfight:

[CookMySock]

I don't think you are going to achieve your goals at all.

Make it more enjoyable? How exactly?

Get more people to ride in groups? What is the mechanism by which you will acheive that?

Avoid legal comebacks? What legal comebacks exactly and precisely, do you currently face that you are aiming to dodge?

Make things safer? I can see this happening.. if there are group rides any more after OSH gets their toe in the door.

I think you have driven the thin edge of the wedge actually, and potentially wrecked forever the thing you profess to protect. The last thing we need are OSH guidlines or legal precedent set for group rides, but you have inadvertantly given them a headstart.

Be it on your head.

Steve

[Drunken Monkey]

We all ride to our own abilities.

I think one of Noel's points is the sticky has been raised because your statement is in fact false. I'm sure I don't need to direct you to the numerous threads on this site, be it minor accident or tragic accident, that the rider(s) who were injured/killed were done so entirely at their own hands because they rode outside their abilities.
Again, I think this was aimed more at road rides than adventure rides, so don't get too excited. I certainly don't recall any incidents where an adventure/off road ride resulted in a severe or worse accident because someone who shouldn't have been there tagged along because they weren't informed.

[Waihou Thumper]

We ride to our own ADV abilities the majority of time and some ride to their own perceived abilities....Yes. We have all at some stage bitten off more than we could chew on the roads and tracks.
Thanks for pointing that out...

[The Stranger]

Are you saying that because I or someone might not explain that it is slippery and steep in parts I am resposible for the possibility of that person falling or injuring them selves?
Describing the terrain, well, 'it is steep and knarly', this would just get all of us fizzing and excited about being here....:lol:

Make it a 'nana' course and no water or mud, shit, then we may as well just ride to a cafe in town and look like ADV riders...
Oh, hang on, that is an organised tea party then, we might have to notify the council for resource consent.....:girlfight:

Hmm, serious communication breakdown right here.
Pretty much I am not suggesting anything of the kind at all.
See post 35 re possible legal outcome.
It's not to say you are or will be found responsible
Look at the aftermath of the court case from Christchurch. No one thought an organiser would be held liable, the shocks caused sporting events to be cancelled and had people running for cover, lawyers and insurance left right and center. All it took was one case.
Now apply that principal to a KB ride and a potential case say as outlined in my post 35. I am suggesting you be aware of the possibility/s and mitigate it. You don't have to, no problem, it's entirely up to you.

What in any of my posts leads you to think I am suggesting we don't undertake tricky rides? Because obviously I need to modify it.

[The Stranger]

Get more people to ride in groups? What is the mechanism by which you will acheive that?

Sorry, did I suggest this was a goal somewhere? But perhaps if they are not percieved as quite so dangerous attendance would increase, who knows?

Avoid legal comebacks? What legal comebacks exactly and precisely, do you currently face that you are aiming to dodge?

Learn to read.

Make things safer? I can see this happening.. if there are group rides any more after OSH gets their toe in the door.

I think you have driven the thin edge of the wedge actually, and potentially wrecked forever the thing you profess to protect. The last thing we need are OSH guidlines or legal precedent set for group rides, but you have inadvertantly given them a headstart.

OSH? What the fuck? You run a business don't you?
You don't have a fucken clue do you? Best you understand the OSH requirements if you are going to run a business or quote this shit. And you think I'm scaremongering, at least I'm not doing it in complete ignorance.

Be it on your head.

Well, I feel bad enough about this. It truely was a collaboration and the input from others was huge and deserves the bulk of the credit, but I thank you for your compliment on behalf of all.

Steve

I know I shouldn't feed the ignorant, but.

[CookMySock]

Haha, /me makes flushing sound. :bye:

Steve

[clint640]

Make things safer? I can see this happening.. if there are group rides any more after OSH gets their toe in the door.

Steve

OSH: Occupational Safety & Health.

They have no jurisdiction unless somebody is WORKING. No one is working on our group rides, no one is getting paid, there is no employer.

OSH is not an issue for us unless we are allowed in someone's workplace, like a farm or commercial forest, where the owner/manager will have the duty to warn us about any unusual hazards.

Cheers
Clint

[CookMySock]

OSH: Occupational Safety & Health.

They have no jurisdiction unless somebody is WORKING. No one is working on our group rides, no one is getting paid, there is no employer.

OSH is not an issue for us unless we are allowed in someone's workplace, like a farm or commercial forest, where the owner/manager will have the duty to warn us about any unusual hazards.Yeah, but you know how goverment things work.. Someone upstairs seems some cool new way of thinking, and ta-da new legislation! An organised ride is very close to a PAID organised ride, which is a completely new situation.

Anyway, like I said, technically I do not take issue with the document, and personally I will use it, but if there are comebacks, possibly it will go bad. Real bad. No one wants this, least of all the authors of the document.

Steve

[The Stranger]

Yeah, but you know how goverment things work.. Someone upstairs seems some cool new way of thinking, and ta-da new legislation! An organised ride is very close to a PAID organised ride, which is a completely new situation.


Sure the govt *may* strrrreeeetttttch the OSH act to include rides. It would be a huge stretch and would require a rewrite of the act, but still, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility. But I would put money on it being done as a result of accidents, not as a result of something I said on the Internet.






I know you are listening John, I have a lot more ideas for you.

[cooneyr]

....Look at the aftermath of the court case from Christchurch. No one thought an organiser would be held liable, the shocks caused sporting events to be cancelled and had people running for cover, lawyers and insurance left right and center. All it took was one case....

Surely Le Race is completely different in a legal sense from a ride organised on here. Having competed in Le Race, Rainbow Rage, Round Taupo etc it is very clear that they are distinctly different from a ride organised on a forum. The key difference is the perceived level of organisation that stems from
Paid entry;
Signatures on forms;
Traffic management on public roads resulting in changes from the road rules i.e. not having to stop at traffic signals cause there is a cop on point duty;
Road closures and instructions that can be miss-interpreted

All of these things create a level of exception that "someone" out there is looking after me, I don't have to think for myself cause I'll just do as I'm told. This in my mind is where all the problems stem from - people not taking personal responsibility and using their head.

We never charge for ride entry, we dont get people to sign forms, road rules apply and when in the true back blocks common sense i.e. keep an eye out for others applies. I'd love to get a bit of coin in my pocket for organising the DB1k or similar but I'd have though that would have been the trigger that kicks it from a informal ride to an organised ride and I don't want that hassle.

Cheers R

[clint640]

We never charge for ride entry, we dont get people to sign forms, road rules apply and when in the true back blocks common sense i.e. keep an eye out for others applies. I'd love to get a bit of coin in my pocket for organising the DB1k or similar but I'd have though that would have been the trigger that kicks it from a informal ride to an organised ride and I don't want that hassle.

Cheers R

Exactly, I would hate to have somebody put off from organising the kinds of rides that you & I have run, due to perceived 'OSH Issues'. There aren't any. End of story.

Cheers
Clint

[The Stranger]

Surely Le Race is completely different in a legal sense from a ride organised on here.

Absolutely, as I have noted twice in this thread already, from a legal perspective it is not relavent.

However, I used it in reference to costs and to impact.
Post 35 sets out a possible legal ramification.

[MXNUT]

One simple guideline I would like to see for ADV rides, If someone catches up to you, they are travelling faster than you, get out of there way and let them pass

hmm maybe ??


If someone catches up to you they should have the skills to pass safely.
Don't risk your safety just to let someone past.

I agree totaly


+1

About 100 Years ago when I was an NZACU Steward - the rule was that it was contingent on the person making the pass to do it safely.

I would also add to this that, at any offroad well organized event now they will also tell you to hold your own line and let the other rider find his/her way past. I think this also applies to ADV riding also.


This does pose some questions about etiquette on an adv ride that I think some noobs (and me) do wonder about.

For example :

1. Will you offend someone by passing them (anywhere)?
2. How close is too close to follow ?
Your opinions.........

1. If it is done safely then it should not offend them, if it does then it is their problem. One other thing i try to do when passing on a gravel road is to build speed first then complete the passing manouvre off the throttle so that i dont roost any one
(or pass them on the far right side of the road).

I have a butt ugly rear gaurd extender on the back of my bike which i would lose in a minute other than i think it stops roost to the riders behind !.

2. 3 bike lengths


Hi, my names Bart and I'm a speedaholic.

OK, I'm no angel. I get caught up in the moment, and ride like an idiot at times, but every time I ride, it's totally at my own risk.



Are you sure your name is Bart ??? ( cause it sounds like you just described me )

[XF650]

I get the impression that some people here are assuming that KiwiBiker is some form of a Club, with all the inherent issues of liability, indemnity etc. Next thing ya know SpankMe's site will need a Constitution, Event Management Policies and Insurance.
Get a grip - isn't this just a (fantastic) interweb site where we can bullshit on forums & go on rides for the fun of it? Isn't KiwiBiker just another form of communication that we can use to organise a (social) ride with others who want to do the same thing?
If someone wants to post up a ride then no way is he/she responsible for those who tag along. We don't pay entry fees, there's no competition & no prizes. If a rider need more assistance than that, then they should join a Club or pay a fee to someone who can offer that level of cover (e.g. Yamaha Safari, organised trail rides etc).
Lets keep it simple & enjoy our (KiwiBiker) adventure riding for what it is - the opportunity to ride with good bastards on some of the best adv routes in the world.

Footnote: I have been involved with motorsport at Committee level & been the "official organiser" of events - we do not want to go there.

[That looks like fun]

So if someone catches up to me thats because I am travelling faster than them? :oi-grr:
Never said to put yourself at risk to let others pass. You can make it easier for them without putting yourself or others at risk. :banana: Or you can hold ya line and ride em off the road :Playnice:
But at least your in the right and thats whats important nowdays :banana:
ADV riding is not the same as racing (unless your winning :2thumbsup ) so should we try and apply the NCACU rules to what we are doing. ;)

[XF650]

Did my first "organised / charity" type trail ride recently. As I like to enjoy the scenery etc, whenever possible I would pull over or signal the faster bikes to pass. But what really pissed me off was the number of pricks who would roost ya as they overtook. I might be getting older & slower but it's something I have never encountered on adventure rides.

[Squiggles]

Lets keep it simple & enjoy our (KiwiBiker) adventure riding for what it is - the opportunity to ride with good bastards on some of the best adv routes in the world.

Regardless of thoughts on the legal stance (which everyone seems to be picking at, never mind other angles like the ever increasing number of riders going bush) is it not wise to indicate the ride will be 300k's and most likely follow x route? Mention that theres that fooken horrible piece of work after that bridge over there? etc :)

[Cary]

I get the impression that some people here are assuming that KiwiBiker is some form of a Club, with all the inherent issues of liability, indemnity etc. Next thing ya know SpankMe's site will need a Constitution, Event Management Policies and Insurance.
Get a grip - isn't this just a (fantastic) interweb site where we can bullshit on forums & go on rides for the fun of it? Isn't KiwiBiker just another form of communication that we can use to organise a (social) ride with others who want to do the same thing?
If someone wants to post up a ride then no way is he/she responsible for those who tag along. We don't pay entry fees, there's no competition & no prizes. If a rider need more assistance than that, then they should join a Club or pay a fee to someone who can offer that level of cover (e.g. Yamaha Safari, organised trail rides etc).
Lets keep it simple & enjoy our (KiwiBiker) adventure riding for what it is - the opportunity to ride with good bastards on some of the best adv routes in the world.

Footnote: I have been involved with motorsport at Committee level & been the "official organiser" of events - we do not want to go there.Couldn't a put it better, well said

[Hinny]

If someone wants to post up a ride then no way is he/she responsible for those who tag along.

I do not agree with you here.

[marks]

I do not agree with you here.

then maybe we need a standard disclaimer that we can inert in all ride descriptions so that people like you are under no illusions about yourr own personal responsibilities.

I would never organize another ride if I thought that the ride participants believed I was in any way responsible for their safety.

We might ride together and help each other but we are as responsible for our own decisions and actions as if we were riding solo

[Waihou Thumper]

And I am one for commenting too...
This perhaps is getting to the stage of Rant or Rave perhaps.....
Not here?
Dunno....
Comments?:Playnice:

[The Stranger]

I would never organize another ride if I thought that the ride participants believed I was in any way responsible for their safety.


NOT wanting to inflame things further, but you seem to be missing the elephant.
It may not be up to you or the other ride participants to decide, it may be a jury of your peers and it may cost you tens of thousands of dollars for the privilege.

[warewolf]

is it not wise to indicate the ride will be 300k's and most likely follow x route? Mention that theres that fooken horrible piece of work after that bridge over there? etc :)We already do that, here in the adventure section.

We already <del>talk shite about ad nauseum</del> fairly thoroughly brief riders on what to expect, what kinda tyres will be needed (= terrain & skills expectation), ditto variations based on the weather, whether big bikes are suitable, look out for each other, encourage n00bs, make sure everyone has the basic gist of the route, point out any really nasty sections or surprises... and so on, and so forth.

Guidelines? We don't need no steekin' guidelines! Food for thought maybe, but we already do that stuff.

[Waihou Thumper]

Rather pathetic....
Look, if one day we have rules and guidelines for riding safely, Oh, it is the Road Code and all that valuable literature out there...
Once we, the riders whom undertake a journey off road with like minded individuals, the value of the enjoyment, comraderie and laughing at the silly fuck ups we all make....
This is why I am here...
To a point....Yes, this is valid.. BUT not here......:girlfight:

[Woodman]

Geeez talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. Get a grip guys and stop trying to make things too hard.

Nuff said on this topic me thinks.

[marks]

NOT wanting to inflame things further, but you seem to be missing the elephant.
It may not be up to you or the other ride participants to decide, it may be a jury of your peers and it may cost you tens of thousands of dollars for the privilege.

firstly - thanks for the considerable effort that you have gone to creating your group ride sticky.

And yes I take your point that its not what I want or think but what "the law" thinks but - setting aside the legalities of it all - it also appears that we could benefit from some form of general simple disclaimer which makes it quite clear to potential ride participants (for their owns safety sake) that they are the ones making decisions about their safety - not the ride organizer.

i

[Crisis management]

Just to make it perfectly clear: It's not my fault, ok?





It's Carys fault., he took the picture.....

[JATZ]

then maybe we need a standard disclaimer that we can inert in all ride descriptions so that people like you are under no illusions about yourr own personal responsibilities.

I would never organize another ride if I thought that the ride participants believed I was in any way responsible for their safety.

Hey MarkS, did my lawyer ever get in touch with you ?
I seem to remember breaking 2 indicators on that NIIOTS ride you strung together :D

Just remembered about MrsJatz tank too.....and CooneyR...... my left ankles still partialy fucked after that D.B.09 malarky

:rofl:

[Waihou Thumper]

It's mine....We KTM riders fall off a lot, we swear....ALOT! and at the end of the day I blaspheme because Mark, Andy, Clint and all the others have provided a ride that makes me sore! in my 'Noddy' bed with the 'Star Wars' Duvet, looking forward to the next one......:2thumbsup Thanks all and sundry!
Getting home, looking forward to the the bike porn photos is the highlight....:2thumbsup

[Woodman]

Hey MarkS, did my lawyer ever get in touch with you ?
I seem to remember breaking 2 indicators on that NIIOTS ride you strung together :D

Just remembered about MrsJatz tank too.....

:rofl:

:lol: Get in line buddy:lol::lol:

[The Stranger]

firstly - thanks for the considerable effort that you have gone to creating your group ride sticky.

And yes I take your point that its not what I want or think but what "the law" thinks but - setting aside the legalities of it all - it also appears that we could benefit from some form of general simple disclaimer which makes it quite clear to potential ride participants (for their owns safety sake) that they are the ones making decisions about their safety - not the ride organizer.

i

Thank you, we do have a disclaimer of liability available, though I need to check that it adequately meets your description.
There are a lot of things that come into the disclaimer - it's not as straight forward as one may like. For example, have a look at an AMCC one, or one of the many you can find via google.

[marks]

Hey MarkS, did my lawyer ever get in touch with you ?
I seem to remember breaking 2 indicators on that NIIOTS ride you strung together :D

Just remembered about MrsJatz tank too.....

:rofl:

I'm suprized you haven't thrown in the DR motor - it obviously fried because some irresponsible person set an unrealistic pace over a certain hill...

actually come to think of it - we were following you that day so.....

[Squiggles]

We already do that, here in the adventure section.

Must be a good idea then! Did not see em written anywhere for a noob like me to read :2thumbsup

[marks]

:lol: Get in line buddy:lol::lol:

no ride organizer can be held responsible for people who ride adventure bikes like they were mx'ers

At least I organized a bike pickup for you at Lake Rotoroa (and I made sure they had beer :yes:)

next Bart will want me to pay for his cosmetic reconstructive surgery
(I would have to sell the house)

[Woodman]

no ride organizer can be held responsible for people who ride adventure bikes like they were mx'ers

At least I organized a bike pickup for you at Lake Rotoroa (and I made sure they had beer :yes:)

next Bart will want me to pay for his cosmetic reconstructive surgery
(I would have to sell the house)

Ok we even then, but personally I think bart should be paying you.:2thumbsup

[Hinny]

I would never organize another ride if I thought that the ride participants believed I was in any way responsible for their safety.

We might ride together and help each other but we are as responsible for our own decisions and actions as if we were riding solo

What do you think organising a ride entails?

Are the recent tragic consequences of organising a ride by merely posting one's intention to ride a route on a particular day; anybody who wants to come should meet at ...of no influence to your way of thinking?

If not, then definitely you should not organise another ride.

[Hinny]

We already do that, here in the adventure section.

We already <del></del> fairly thoroughly brief riders on what to expect, what kinda tyres will be needed (= terrain & skills expectation), ditto variations based on the weather, whether big bikes are suitable, look out for each other, encourage n00bs, make sure everyone has the basic gist of the route, point out any really nasty sections or surprises... and so on, and so forth.

Guidelines?
Food for thought maybe, but we already do that stuff.

These are the sort of guidelines I expect would be of use to everybody who wants to organise a ride.

It's looking out for your fellow man.

Doesn't always happen.

[That looks like fun]

Nobody saw me do it, :oi-grr: you cant prove a thing :whistle: And that go,s for anything that hasnt happened yet as well, Ok :2thumbsup

[marks]

What do you think organising a ride entails?

Are the recent tragic consequences of organising a ride by merely posting one's intention to ride a route on a particular day; anybody who wants to come should meet at ...of no influence to your way of thinking?

If not, then definitely you should not organise another ride.

I must have missed something here - what tragic consequences on what ride?

can someone point me to some info?

[NordieBoy]

and CooneyR...... my left ankles still partialy fucked after that D.B.09 malarky

DR750's are like white men.

They can't jump :oi-grr:

[Hinny]

Coro Loop.

[NordieBoy]

Nobody saw me do it, :oi-grr: you cant prove a thing :whistle: And that go,s for anything that hasnt happened yet as well, Ok :2thumbsup

Only problem with that is there's probably several people who caught it on camera :D


Including those ones in the future.

[Hinny]

I must have missed something here - what tragic consequences on what ride?

can someone point me to some info?

Here you go.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1129286726#post1129286726

I thought Din and Beyond made very reasoned and moving posts here.

[Hinny]

And more pertinently here.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=100612&page=13

[PeteJ]

Right. Ryan and I got into a discussion on these issues about 18 months ago, but I've got two hats on at the mo - 1. lawyer; 2. roadrider/racer (sealed and unsealed surfaces)/formal event organiser, in every case for >35 years.

A. A disclaimer from an organiser in itself relieves no liability at all. Full stop.

B. "Organiser" will be seen in very wide terms at a coroner's inquest (yes, have had the unfortunate duty of attending some of those).

C. "Adventure riders are more responsible"? - well, I'm not going to speak for myself, but do we recall what happened on the "HUB" ride a bit over a year ago? And that "HUB" stood for "Harden Up Boys"? As I recall, it was ironically the organiser via KB who was killed.

D. Absolute legal liability is not the point. It's the accusations that cause the most grief to the accused.

E. There will always be people who ride beyond their abilities, trying to keep up with/be faster than others. Naturally, they will not recognise it, either before or after they have crashed. They will also blame everyone else.

F. My solution is usually to try to ride apart from the others on a group ride, and meet up at destinations.

G. If you have leaders and Tail End Charlies, that strongly implies an organised ride, rather than a social event.

This'll do for now.

[mazz1972]

I appreciate the legal situation of being an organiser - our bike club organises up to seven trail rides a year with between 300-800 participants each time. We are affiliated to Motorcycling NZ, so have rules & regs to follow. I’m the MNZ Steward at all our trail rides, so for me safety is paramount. We have a disclaimer that all riders sign, but that would not absolve us of liability if we did not take due care in plotting our course, follow our own rules, or provide an adequate briefing pointing out hazards etc. It's not helpful when people don't listen at the verbal briefing, or bother to read a written one.

However many trail rides are organized by school groups or the like, with no MNZ club backing, and from what I’ve heard, some of them are pretty lacking with care and safety.

I have no experience in organising road (or adv) rides, which is what the guidelines sticky leans towards.

However in terms of legal liability, surely in the eyes of the “law” there must be a difference between:

a) an organized ride advertised to all and sundry, with an entry fee. I would expect some responsibility falls on the shoulders of the organisers. There could be traffic management issues, maybe road closures, etc.

b) an informal KB post “I’m planning to ride to x - who wants to join me?”.

c) ringing/texting/emailing a group of mates seeing who wants to go for a blat Saturday, be it 2 or 12 people.

For any road ride, people should be responsible for their own safety as they are riding on public roads.

However if a trail ride (and maybe parts of an adv ride) where you are using on private property - the land owners could potentially face liability issues, so there should be guidelines/rules in place for participants.

In some areas (such as Kapiti) events must comply with by-laws, and council requires notification. Our trail rides fall into this category, but I’m unsure of the situation with road ride type events.

I've been told that ACC have been in discussions with certain people in the offroad motorcycling arena (not via Motorcycling NZ) – but I don’t know any details other than that.

Incidentally there is an interesting article in the latest Motorcycle Trader mag about group (road) rides and safety.

[clint640]

Given that this thread was originally about liability issues from organising a ride, surely the fact that someone has had a tragic accident on a very loosely organised ride & the organiser has not been prosecuted as a result would indicate that legal issues should not be a concern to those organising rides on here.

Cheers
Clint

[marks]

Given that this thread was originally about liability issues from organising a ride, surely the fact that someone has had a tragic accident on a very loosely organised ride & the organiser has not been prosecuted as a result would indicate that legal issues should not be a concern to those organising rides on here.

Cheers
Clint

Liability aside - I would wind myself in knots with guilt wondering if I could have done something different/better if something like this happened on a ride I was involved with organizing.

this is all certainly sobering food for thought

[PeteJ]

Given that this thread was originally about liability issues from organising a ride, surely the fact that someone has had a tragic accident on a very loosely organised ride & the organiser has not been prosecuted as a result would indicate that legal issues should not be a concern to those organising rides on here.

Cheers
Clint

Sorry, Clint, no. It's more a question of who gets wound up enough to get others wound up enough to prosecute, and that's just random. All it takes is a vengeful mother or partner, and then away it goes.

There's actually more likely to be civil court action by an insurance company for money for machine/car/other property damage, since you cannot sue for damages for personal injury in NZ.

Just as a general principle, group rides on roads are bloody dangerous, as clearly evidenced by the sheer number of crashes on them as reported on and from KB.

PS I have several mates who have each covered 2 million+ km on NZ roads, on 100+ plus machines owned in most cases, without falling off, or hitting, or being hit by anyone. Luck? Like hell. There is one common factor - they do not ride in groups with others.

[PeteJ]

Another thought: it's well known that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Why are all the MNZ-affiliated clubs required to be incorporated societies? So as to avoid individual liability for event organisers, even for the road rides the clubs run.

Why are all the classic motorcycle clubs that arose in the late 70s and early 80s, and do not run competitive rides at all, incorporated societies also? Same reason. They have the nearest parallel to what we're discussing here: un-timed pre-set route runs, starting and stopping at predetermined places.

I am sad that so many friends on this forum seem determined to learn the hard way what motorcyclists three generations ago have already learned before them.

[clint640]

Why are all the classic motorcycle clubs that arose in the late 70s and early 80s, and do not run competitive rides at all, incorporated societies also? Same reason. They have the nearest parallel to what we're discussing here: un-timed pre-set route runs, starting and stopping at predetermined places.
.

So, in recent history, how many prosecutions / civil court actions have been brought against clubs for anything that has happened on such rides? It would be good to have some examples of the kinds of things that might get us in the shit.

Cheers
Clint

[Oscar]

Another thought: it's well known that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Why are all the MNZ-affiliated clubs required to be incorporated societies? So as to avoid individual liability for event organisers, even for the road rides the clubs run.

Why are all the classic motorcycle clubs that arose in the late 70s and early 80s, and do not run competitive rides at all, incorporated societies also? Same reason. They have the nearest parallel to what we're discussing here: un-timed pre-set route runs, starting and stopping at predetermined places.

I am sad that so many friends on this forum seem determined to learn the hard way what motorcyclists three generations ago have already learned before them.

It is true that most Motorcycle Clubs incorporated because the NZACU required them to be incorporated before issuing permits to run events. The permit of course allowed access to the ACU's liability cover.

However a permit wasn't required for non-competitive events (such as the ones we're discussing), which could be a large part of the Clubs Calender. I do not recall any consideration or claim in respect of personal liability back then, and for that matter lately (up until recently I specialised in Liability Insurance). This of course excludes criminal or OSH (work place) prosecutions.

I have also never seen a claim for damages against anyone other than the owner of the vehicle where no official organisation existed. In other words, if you go through a farmers fence on the MMMMM, you'd better be insured, because it ain't Clint's problem.

[Maha]

Group Ride Sticky?
What about a Sticky Group Ride??

[That looks like fun]

I have taken the liberty of designing a form that all particapants should sign before doing anything at all ;)

I (name goes here) being of sound mind and body, hereby sign and declare under oath (place blood drop here) that in the unlikely event of an event happening. I will freely partake of the following actions. And should said event be eventfull enough to cause or maybe cause or even a slight chance of causing something to go horribly wrong with any property or body parts including my wee wee (urine sample goes here) I am fully prepared to admit to and accept said event.
Unless I can get bike upright before photos of the event and/or injured wee wee are taken in which case I will deny all knowledge and blame others profusley :girlfight:
(sign here, here and
here):2thumbsup

[Rosie]

Group Ride Sticky?
What about a Sticky Group Ride??

On gravel? Stickiness and dust are a bad combination :oi-grr:

[PeteJ]

It is true that most Motorcycle Clubs incorporated because the NZACU required them to be incorporated before issuing permits to run events. The permit of course allowed access to the ACU's liability cover.

However a permit wasn't required for non-competitive events (such as the ones we're discussing), which could be a large part of the Clubs Calender. I do not recall any consideration or claim in respect of personal liability back then, and for that matter lately (up until recently I specialised in Liability Insurance). This of course excludes criminal or OSH (work place) prosecutions.

I have also never seen a claim for damages against anyone other than the owner of the vehicle where no official organisation existed. In other words, if you go through a farmers fence on the MMMMM, you'd better be insured, because it ain't Clint's problem.

No, I was going much, much further back in history, to before the NZACU was created. Clubs incorporated for members' individual protection way back then, and that's why NZACU (now MNZ) requires them to be incorporated now. The insurers have always required incorporation to cut down the possibility of claims against many potential insureds (as would be the case with an unincorporated group covered by insurance).

And it's not the full story to say that permits are not required for non-competitive events. AMCC takes out permits for ART days, for instance; it's not required to, but does so out of ordinary commercial prudence.

But I'm pleased to hear that insurers are not interested in pursuing parties who may have been part of a cause of loss to property. I happily admit that this is news to me. Oscar, as a point of interest, I heard that vehicle insurers are abandoning/have abandoned "knock for knock". Is that so?

[PeteJ]

So, in recent history, how many prosecutions / civil court actions have been brought against clubs for anything that has happened on such rides? It would be good to have some examples of the kinds of things that might get us in the shit.

Cheers
Clint

Claims have been made against classic clubs, actually. (Incidentally, none, other than NZCMRR, is affiliated to MNZ.) I'm a life member of one, and well aware of the issue. The claims tend to be pootling little ones for those; "I fell off and crunched my bike on 'X Run, and it's the club's fault for making the route so hard' ". But as I said before, the hassle is fighting off a money claim, more than the prospect of it succeeding at the far end.

However, when someone dies - and there have been far too many deaths already on KB-assisted rides - then you can be sure that the coroners will increasingly be focussing on how the rider's deaths occurred, and who organised what. All it needs is for someone's Mummy to say at an inquest, "Oh, Clint from KB organised this and made it too hard for my little Deadikins", and the brown will meet the whirly thing. Coroners can and do recommend criminal prosecutions.

Look, obviously I am disappointed if folk are determined not to believe me, but in the end I'm not in any danger of the consequences I'm warning about. I won't even bother to say, "I told you so."

[Oscar]

No, I was going much, much further back in history, to before the NZACU was created. Clubs incorporated for members' individual protection way back then, and that's why NZACU (now MNZ) requires them to be incorporated now. The insurers have always required incorporation to cut down the possibility of claims against many potential insureds (as would be the case with an unincorporated group covered by insurance).

And it's not the full story to say that permits are not required for non-competitive events. AMCC takes out permits for ART days, for instance; it's not required to, but does so out of ordinary commercial prudence.

But I'm pleased to hear that insurers are not interested in pursuing parties who may have been part of a cause of loss to property. I happily admit that this is news to me. Oscar, as a point of interest, I heard that vehicle insurers are abandoning/have abandoned "knock for knock". Is that so?

The one I work for was never in the Knock for Knock.
Generally it doesn't work for smaller insurers.
I'm surprised no one has had a go at through the Commerce Commission.
It can be anti-competitive.

[PeteJ]

The one I work for was never in the Knock for Knock.
Generally it doesn't work for smaller insurers.
I'm surprised no one has had a go at through the Commerce Commission.
It can be anti-competitive.

Yeah, that's what I thought. However, the result (in eg the UK now) is insurer v insurer litigation. Once that happens here, we'll see a much more litigious environment again than we have yet seen.

[cooneyr]

.....I would never organize another ride if I thought that the ride participants believed I was in any way responsible for their safety....

Me neither - this is scaring the shit out of me.

Basically what I'm hearing is that if somebody died as a result of the DB1k then I'd have a really hard time defending the "it's just too hard for anybody to do given the distance and time" argument. From what I'm hearing this is would be a civil case that might be brought against me by a parent, spouse, sibling etc rather than a criminal case.

If I'm hearing this right then I think I understand why a disclaimer has no weight cause it was the rider that signed up for it not the parent, spouse, sibling etc therefore it is their opinion against mine without even taking into account the thoughts to the rider.

So what the hell do we do? Many people on here rely on the rides organised/ connived/whatever the hell we call it to meet up with others and have a bit of fun?

The ridiculous thing is that I cannot see how there is any more/different legal liability organising a ride here on KB to if I was to text a few mates about a ride. The only thing that changes is the form of communication. Arguably communication is better here on KB - is that the problem?


......and CooneyR...... my left ankles still partialy fucked after that D.B.09 malarky

:rofl:

Ya what? I know nothing and I don't want to know anything! Nobody made you do! Learn how to ride you slow, useless, 80's technology riding geriatric :bleh:

Cheers R

[PeteJ]

Put it this way, Ryan - the more organising you do, the more likely it is that someone might have a crack at you if it goes pear-shaped. The less organised a ride is, the more ability you have to say that everything was up to the individuals to look after themselves.

Sounds wacky, and objectively it is.

I despise this "blame" culture where people are unwilling to accept that shit occasionally just happens, but I do recognise that that's the way it is, and it shows no sign of abating.

[Crisis management]

The ridiculous thing is that I cannot see how there is any more/different legal liability organising a ride here on KB to if I was to text a few mates about a ride. The only thing that changes is the form of communication. Arguably communication is better here on KB - is that the problem?


The reason I brought this up is that there is a written record on KB of the planning, who organised and now a guide of how you're supposed to do it. To me this is a clear string of "evidence" that could be used against you, if Pete or Stu have any comments as to how we could protect ourselves against any liability I would love to hear.
Failing that, I will preface any ride I "may" organise with the following: "I'm riding to X and will meet you lot there, have a great time and take care".

Can't think of anything else but am open to any suggestions.

[PeteJ]

Yeah, Iain, I'm too old and tired to think about people wanting to have a go at me for failing to look after them when they should have looked after themselves. I would not like to suggest that ride organisers be encouraged to get everyone to sign indemnity forms, but I am told that's been happening in Australia for some time now (see The Bear in several issues last year of "Australian Road Rider"). Blame the blame culture.

However, on KB we read reports after many of the "organised" rides of mishaps up to and including fatalities. Why join that pattern, which is now so established that it must be drawing attention to itself in officialdom, government and private? The more you organise, the more you're on the skyline. And he who walks the skyline presents the best target...

It's not just my observation that group riding on the roads is bloody dangerous - some of my most trusted racing cobbers refuse to ride on the road, especially with a group, because they consider it too dangerous. (An example whom some of you may know: Vince Sharpe).

And in fact, Iain, the group riding thread you mentioned first is introduced on the home page of this forum by a statement that what we do is a dangerous game. That, as such, is bullshit. Motorcycle road and backroad riding can be perfectly safe, and is, for thousands of riders. But you can make it dangerous eg by riding in a group with riders of unknown abilities.

[The Stranger]

Me neither - this is scaring the shit out of me.

Basically what I'm hearing is that if somebody died as a result of the DB1k then I'd have a really hard time defending the "it's just too hard for anybody to do given the distance and time" argument. From what I'm hearing this is would be a civil case that might be brought against me by a parent, spouse, sibling etc rather than a criminal case.

If I'm hearing this right then I think I understand why a disclaimer has no weight cause it was the rider that signed up for it not the parent, spouse, sibling etc therefore it is their opinion against mine without even taking into account the thoughts to the rider.

So what the hell do we do? Many people on here rely on the rides organised/ connived/whatever the hell we call it to meet up with others and have a bit of fun?

The ridiculous thing is that I cannot see how there is any more/different legal liability organising a ride here on KB to if I was to text a few mates about a ride. The only thing that changes is the form of communication. Arguably communication is better here on KB - is that the problem?



I must say, I'm impressed. Honestly
You've nailed a lot of points there.

You've kind of bought home the gravity of the situation. To just blindly say it can't happen (as some seem to be suggesting) is to delude one's self.
You've also noted one of the reasons a disclaimer wasn't included (yet at least). People may rely upon it when it is actually ineffective.

You are very unlikely to face a criminal prosecution. Road rules are very thorough, well established and well tested. So much so that the govt didn't even try and fook with them in the original OSH act - traffic accidents were specifically excluded from the act for this reason.

Just because someone dies or is injured, you are not necessarily going to face a problem. In fact, on the balance of probabilities you are NOT going to have a problem.
That doesn't however mean you won't.


For one thing, if everyone comes home safe and sound, there can be no problems right - a key tenet of the guide.

If you have taken all reasonable steps to inform people what they are getting themselves into and despite this they still attend, how would you expect that a parent, spouse, relative etc could blame you? - another key tenet.

If in the unlikely event you did get charged or prosecuted would you rather say
1) I realise that motorcycling is dangerous, I told him so (in writing in my post), furthermore, I took all reasonable precautions as agreed by a group of very experienced motorcyclists with a combined experience of a million years.
OR
2) I realise that motorcycling is dangerous so I stuck my head in the sand and hoped nothing would go wrong.
Which one do you think a judge/jury would rather hear?

KB or a group of mates - the difference, you have probably cherry picked the riders to suit the conditions. It's going to be hard for my parents to have a go at you as I am big and ugly enough to make my own decisions due to my vast experience - cough , cough.

[The Stranger]

Put it this way, Ryan - the more organising you do, the more likely it is that someone might have a crack at you if it goes pear-shaped. The less organised a ride is, the more ability you have to say that everything was up to the individuals to look after themselves.



I believe you are 100% correct as it relates to rules or the enforcing of guidelines. Essentially, if you try and enforce them they become rules. Rules come with responsibility.
For example, were you to scrutineer bikes, or check for correct gear or license you are taking control and thus responsibility.
The guidelines as published deliberately stay away from this.
However I believe they do offer some potential benefits as set out in my last post.

[tri boy]

except start posting under Tri-boys name

Swap ya the 990 for my pass word.
Alter ego for an Orange nasty.
Bargain of the year.
(for me);)

[PeteJ]

Thanks, Brent. Yeah, we were getting all too serious...

Cheers

PJ

[bart]

no ride organizer can be held responsible for people who ride adventure bikes like they were mx'ers

next Bart will want me to pay for his cosmetic reconstructive surgery
(I would have to sell the house)


Ok we even then, but personally I think bart should be paying you.:2thumbsup

Haha, if anything, the scars have improved my looks.:2thumbsup

To be honest, I've had ten times worse on the rugby feild. The moment you put on a helmet (or rugby boots), you know there may be consequences. All actions have a reaction. If you ride beyond your ability, you will be caught out eventually.

Must admit that this thread has opened my eyes about organising rides. I think the key is to make absolutly sure that all participants know exactly what they are in for.:beer:

[marks]

If you ride beyond your ability, you will be caught out eventually.

particularly if there is some bastard pointing a camera at you :yes:

[xgnr]

NOT wanting to inflame things further, but you seem to be missing the elephant.
It may not be up to you or the other ride participants to decide, it may be a jury of your peers and it may cost you tens of thousands of dollars for the privilege.

Is this guy a lawyer or what?

What happened to riding with others just for the pleasure of it?

FFS

[Squiggles]

Is this guy a lawyer or what?

What happened to riding with others just for the pleasure of it?

FFS

Have you read the Group Ride Guide? :banana:

[clint640]

What happened to riding with others just for the pleasure of it?



Don't worry. It'll be happening again soon on an Adv ride near you :2thumbsup

I haven't seen any hard facts in all the above waffle that will stop me organising rides, or even change the way I do things. In fact Oscars assertion that it is very unlikely that an insurance company will have a go at me for someone elses crash actually gives me one less thing to worry about ;)

Ride On
Clint

[MXNUT]

Calling the fun police.........:(

[That looks like fun]

A discussion on rider ettiquitte (shit thats a big word, hope I spelled it right)
might have been useful. Amusing yes,:girlfight: useful maybe :oi-grr:
All this debate about legal mumbo jumbo (strangley enough inserted mainly by road riders) is just wasted web space. :argh:
I am going for a ride :banana: and no your not invited :2thumbsup
(unless ya wanna come ok :hug: )

[Oscar]

A discussion on rider ettiquitte (shit thats a big word, hope I spelled it right)
might have been useful. Amusing yes,:girlfight: useful maybe :oi-grr:
All this debate about legal mumbo jumbo (strangley enough inserted mainly by road riders) is just wasted web space. :argh:
I am going for a ride :banana: and no your not invited :2thumbsup
(unless ya wanna come ok :hug: )

Who you calling a road rider...?

More to the point, do you know anyone that wants a GS1100 like yours? I have one cluttering up the place...

[Woodman]

Calling the fun police.........:(

Exactly........ Move on please nothing interesting to see here.

[Kiwi Graham]

Ok guys here goes....

The guide is meant to be...............A GUIDE

Its come about because there have been occasions when on 'organised' rides there have been varying degrees of mishaps the more serious of which has resulted in the death of one of the participants.

Organised; this means a ride that has been 'advertised' on KB by an individual keen to have some company on a ride out.

When you 'advertise' a ride using this kind of forum, like it or not there is a perceived responsibility being taken.

'The Guide' is there (should someone choose to use it) to aid this individual to cover as many bases as possible re suitability, complexity, expected behaviours etc in the initial post advertising the ride and on the day. It’s true, should the worst happen and provided the guidelines have been seen to have been followed the 'organiser' will be in a better position to state he/she did all they could to be responsible if ‘someone attempts to hold them accountable.

This thread started in the ADV/Duel section but to be honest is really aimed at the road riding section of our community.

The simple aim of this initiative is to make riding in a group safer based on the experience of many well seasoned and the feedback of new to biking individuals.

KG

[xgnr]

Have you read the Group Ride Guide? :banana:

Yep started it, spotted the assertion that staggered riding is not appropriate or words to that effect?

Better tell that to most MC Clubs... they obviously got it wrong

[Padmei]

I for one am glad of all the issues brough up on this thread. I was president of the local triathlon & multisport club for a few years & race directed & organised many races.
To be honest the Traffic management plans scared the crap out of me any time I had to put my name on the bottom line. We were all aware disclaimers meant nothing if neglect could proved - imagine trying to eliminate or reduce risks in a multisport race on busy roads, rivers, off road tracks etc.

In one race (organised by someone else) a girl ran into the front of a ute full speed mountainbiking in the forest cos she expected the road to be closed. She received major injuries. She, her partner & her parents understood the risks & were cool about it. Her auntie however wanted the organiser's blood. The police were brought in however nothing luckily ever eventuated. Whilst the was no case brought up it was a very stressful time for the organiser.

As a relative newcomer to adv riding I often wondered what would happen if something bad happened during an organised ride. By organised I would take that to be a ride with a set route, rider briefing, participation requirements ie. have to stop at a place to check in etc & not a bunch of guys heading out on a Sunday cruise up to the lake... I see no difference in the former from competing in a club race or event.

[The Stranger]

Yep started it, spotted the assertion that staggered riding is not appropriate or words to that effect?

Better tell that to most MC Clubs... they obviously got it wrong

Yep, the explanation looks like a definite assertion against to me. No way does that look balanced or present both sides of what was a contentious issue.
The correct approach would have been xgnr says staggered formation is good so we all do it right!



There is much debate on the merits of staggered formation riding and it appears divisions run deep on this one. Below are the pros and cons. If the organiser doesn't advise in their pre-ride brief you decide what you are comfortable with.

Pros
The ride presents a greater frontal area which may help reduce the "I didn't see you factor" from other motorists.
It allows additional braking distance. You should be maintaining safe following distances at all times regardless of whether the bike in front is offset or not.
It may allow riders a better view of the road ahead as view is not obstructed by a bike in front.
Cons
It contradicts the cardinal rule of group riding - ride your own ride. You are riding where someone else dictates.
Some bikes will be forced to use the left wheel track which reduces visibility and vision and puts them in line for more tar bleed and pot holes.
Many will hold stagger for entry to bends which means they start their corner from a sub-optimal road position.
It creates a false sense of safety and people often tend to close the gap as a result, thus creating a safety issue.

[warewolf]

Yep started it, spotted the assertion that staggered riding is not appropriate or words to that effect?

Better tell that to most MC Clubs... they obviously got it wrongYes, they did... don't get me started.

Staggered formation has been known to be wrong since about the late eighties. Even the ACC 'group riding' DVD released a couple of years ago erroneously recommends it, and their motion picture footage of said act blatantly demonstrates one of the prime reasons it is wrong. Du-uh!

Prime reason it is wrong: if the bikes are closer than recommended for single-file riding by using the (non-existent) buffer space beside the rider ahead (using less real estate is a common justification for staggered formation), then when setting up for a corner where you are ideally only on the outside line, the bikes end up with insufficient buffer as the bikes on the inside of the corner move to the outside. There is no point being 'staggered' but at single-file spacing... achieves nought but puts lefties too close to the shoulder for normal riding, and righties too close to oncoming traffic. The single file should balance these and other competing concerns, and usually there is only one optimal position - staggered implies there are two.