How I ride is perceived by others... [Archive]

Mom

14th September 2009, 21:21

It is about time that a thread on taking personal responsibility for your actions on the road, and how those actions will impact the general populace and how they view us bikers in future, is actually given some considered and positive debate on here. All too often certain members with genuine and heartfelt opinions can railroad a discussion into a meaningless slanging match, often accompanied by abuse and red rep flying, coupled with a few infractions as a side dish.

Lets see if it is possible to have an adult, mature discussion on this. I am not interested in seeing shit talk in this thread, nor do I want to see abuse, or funny to some pisstaking, if you cant contribute in an adult way please refrain from saying anything.

So, ground rules established here goes.

I am sure that we would all agree that idiots on the road, whether they ride bikes or drive cars are the bain of our lives as we make our way from A to B on our bikes. I am equally as sure that we would all agree that being an idiot on the road does not look good to anyone.

What defines an idiot? Well I guess that all depends on where you sit on the "things that seem crazy to some people will be nothing to worry about to others" scale. How do we tell the difference when we are pootling along enjoying our own ride?

Because I chopped down a gear and flew past that Granny in her Corolla doing 80 on the open road, does that make me an idiot? I never went over 110kph, but I passed her. Sure there was a bend in the road ahead, but I knew there was heaps of room to make that pass easily, and safely. How did she feel about it? Perhaps I scared the snot out of her and I am now confined to the "bloody idiot" category too?

So, how do we tell? How do we mitigate the perceived image we portray when doing our thing, if we relegate ourselves to "idiot" status in all innocence?

Remember folks, this is a discussion for grown ups. Lets see if we can manage to behave in this thread as well as we would expect all bikers to behave on the road, with courtesy and respect.

GO!

Sharry

14th September 2009, 21:33

It is true that a respectful discusion on personal responsability would be useful amongs adults.
I can be difficult to define idiot.
If you pass Granny, who thinks 80 is the new world land record, she could see you as an idiot for needing to go faster than 80. I on the other hand having passed Granny at 100 kph with a calm hand on the throttle I may think I am being responsable, as I presume when the local rabbit runs in front of her Carolla she will either break suddenly or attempt evasive action. I also know that she may be prone to rounding 55kph corners at 50 kph.
So therefore justifying my passing manuvour.

Idiot to me is someone that is doing an avoidable manovour that is either very illegal or potentually dangerous to themselves or others.

Sidewinder

14th September 2009, 21:34

mmmm this is a hard one, even if its in the law people see things as stupid and silly, if ya cant get pulled over for it then i reckon its fine. like me speeding, i cant get pulled over because i go to fast and dont stop:doh::Police::Police:

piston broke

14th September 2009, 21:47

:bleh:i'm an imature child at heart:msn-wink::bleh:

short-circuit

14th September 2009, 21:47

It is about time that a thread on taking personal responsibility for your actions on the road, and how those actions will impact the general populace and how they view us bikers in future, is actually given some considered and positive debate on here. All too often certain members with genuine and heartfelt opinions can railroad a discussion into a meaningless slanging match, often accompanied by abuse and red rep flying, coupled with a few infractions as a side dish.

Lets see if it is possible to have an adult, mature discussion on this. I am not interested in seeing shit talk in this thread, nor do I want to see abuse, or funny to some pisstaking, if you cant contribute in an adult way please refrain from saying anything.

So, ground rules established here goes.

I am sure that we would all agree that idiots on the road, whether they ride bikes or drive cars are the bain of our lives as we make our way from A to B on our bikes. I am equally as sure that we would all agree that being an idiot on the road does not look good to anyone.

What defines an idiot? Well I guess that all depends on where you sit on the "things that seem crazy to some people will be nothing to worry about to others" scale. How do we tell the difference when we are pootling along enjoying our own ride?

Because I chopped down a gear and flew past that Granny in her Corolla doing 80 on the open road, does that make me an idiot? I never went over 110kph, but I passed her. Sure there was a bend in the road ahead, but I knew there was heaps of room to make that pass easily, and safely. How did she feel about it? Perhaps I scared the snot out of her and I am now confined to the "bloody idiot" category too?

So, how do we tell? How do we mitigate the perceived image we portray when doing our thing, if we relegate ourselves to "idiot" status in all innocence?

Remember folks, this is a discussion for grown ups. Lets see if we can manage to behave in this thread as well as we would expect all bikers to behave on the road, with courtesy and respect.

GO!

Nope. Too constrained by those ground rules :spanking: way too serious for me

Hiflyer

14th September 2009, 21:58

It is true that a respectful discusion on personal responsability would be useful amongs adults.
I can be difficult to define idiot.
If you pass Granny, who thinks 80 is the new world land record, she could see you as an idiot for needing to go faster than 80. I on the other hand having passed Granny at 100 kph with a calm hand on the throttle may think I am being responsable, as I presume when the local rabbit runs in front of her Carolla she will either break suddenly or attempt evasive action. I also know that she may be prone to rounding 55kkph corners at 50 kph.
So therefore justifying my passing manuvour.

Idiot to me is someone that is doing an avoidable manovour that is either very illegal or potentually dangerous to themselves or others.

And on the other hand if you don't pass her shes probably going to think you're an idiot biker who tailgates everyone (not YOU specifically, you get ma jist :niceone: ) and even in your situation if you can justify your passing move it sure as hell wont stop her from sitting round groaning and moaning to 5 or 6 people about that idiot biker who FLEW past her earlier.

I guess it is very hard not to be percieved as an idiot by someone at some point in time.

Which kinda means it's a lose lose situation.

edit: or we could just drive at 80 on the open road in a corolla, but then another younger person will come across us and think "stupid old people" and we will end up pissing people off in another way.. DAMN VISCIOUS CIRCLES

R6_kid

14th September 2009, 22:01

I put other bikers into that category quite frequently. Like the squid on the Maroon 2006 R1 who took exception to me getting slightly ahead of him in traffic in a different lane on the motorway tonight. He took off, cutting up traffic at 140kmh+ leading up to, and over the Harbour Bridge. Why? I was just riding home from a test at university.

James Deuce

14th September 2009, 22:01

Everyone slower than me is a thoughtless idiot and everyone faster is a maniac.

CookMySock

14th September 2009, 22:03

Everyone thinks everyone else is an idiot on at least one topic.

It isn't my business what you do, and nor do I have an opinion on how you conduct yourself personally. Quite frankly it doesn't affect me.

For myself, I do as I choose - probably exactly what you do too.

I vote we just keep doing that. I won't judge you, and you don't judge me.

Sound like a plan?

Steve

Mom

14th September 2009, 22:04

I put other bikers into that category quite frequently. Like the squid on the Maroon 2006 R1 who took exception to me getting slightly ahead of him in traffic in a different lane on the motorway. He took off, cutting up traffic at 140kmh+ over leading up to, and over the Harbour Bridge. Why? I was just riding home from a test at university.

See, this is what I am talking about here, that is worthy of idiot tag. That is a perfect example of the kind of behaviour that does indeed influence how bikers as a whole are perceived.

btw short-circuit, you have just made your last stupid post in here.

scumdog

14th September 2009, 22:05

Idiot to me is someone that is doing an avoidable manovour that is either very illegal or potentually dangerous to themselves or others.

Pretty much sums it up - with the real emphasis on the 'potentially dangerous' bit.

Milts

14th September 2009, 22:06

Sidewinder

14th September 2009, 22:09

self controll is a hard thing for some, like the red mist, that always got me in trouble, way to egear to show off all the time. and mom you have even told me off after a ride i think for doing back fires on the motor way...????

FJRider

14th September 2009, 22:09

It is true that a respectful discusion on personal responsability would be useful amongs adults.
I can be difficult to define idiot.
If you pass Granny, who thinks 80 is the new world land record, she could see you as an idiot for needing to go faster than 80. I on the other hand having passed Granny at 100 kph with a calm hand on the throttle may think I am being responsable, as I presume when the local rabbit runs in front of her Carolla she will either break suddenly or attempt evasive action. I also know that she may be prone to rounding 55kkph corners at 50 kph.
So therefore justifying my passing manuvour.

Idiot to me is someone that is doing an avoidable manovour that is either very illegal or potentually dangerous to themselves or others.

Personal responsibility ??? is it in regards to responsibility for your actions ... or the results of those actions ??? If you got a ticket for exceeding the speed limit passing Granny, you are being held responsible for breaking the law. But ... if Granny got a fright and ran off the road or into another vehicle, would you believe you were responsible for that ???

We all have done idiot things on the road, with thoughts of (just after)... why did I do that ?? Even if we get away with it at the time. When we do it .... its ok. But if others do it, its a hangable offence.

Does personal responsibility end, when you see personal justification ???

ManDownUnder

14th September 2009, 22:10

I reserve the right to be pissed off if anything, in my personal judgement, threatens the safety of me an mine.

I expect others to hold a similar view - and try to ride accordingly. If our respective personal views differ enough for me to be branded an idiot then so be it... but I need to be willing to face any consequences my actions cause.

If I do something that some old dear sees and wildly dangerous and has a heart attack as a result... it's over to me to assuage my own conscience.

Macontour

14th September 2009, 22:11

I think we all love the freedom, wind in the hair, manoeuvreability, speed, acceleration and handling of our bikes and most of will use those advantages reasonably often on the road whether it is to just get the adrenaline buzz or to blast past a line of slow moving cars.

If we saw someone in a "boy racer" car doing the same thing we would probably bitch and moan, shake our fists, swear and dial *555 to dob them in!

Sometimes we are hypocrirtes aren't we?

YellowDog

14th September 2009, 22:19

I judge everyone else on the road all of the time. It is how I stay safe.

If I see a biker gaining speed on a car, indicate, swingout, and then swing in again with plenty of space for a safe overtake; then I say "well done".

If I see the same thing done with heaps of braking and without good control, then I say "get off the road moron".

I judge everyone else by my ownstandards. Sure I ride too fast, but only when the conditions say that I can do it safely. I always nod at Police motorcyclists and generally get the same back.

However good or bad we are, it is our ability to read and respond to a given road situation that governs our own personal survival rate.

We all make mistakes and most of us get the chance to learn from them.

Keep learning guys. Rubber side down!

PrincessBandit

14th September 2009, 22:30

...

Because I chopped down a gear and flew past that Granny in her Corolla doing 80 on the open road, does that make me an idiot? I never went over 110kph, but I passed her. Sure there was a bend in the road ahead, but I knew there was heaps of room to make that pass easily, and safely. How did she feel about it? Perhaps I scared the snot out of her and I am now confined to the "bloody idiot" category too?

In that particular scenario it's not the speed that would be the issue. What would put you into the "idiot" category IMO would be things like doing it with an incredibly noisy bike (sounding more like a jet engine than a bike), while passing with bare centimetres clearance from her side panels, and doing it having come up so fast behind her that you truly "came out of nowhere" and blitzed her.

To counter these points: you're not aiming to scare her shitless with noise (although the poor old dear probably didn't have her hearing aid in anyway), you give ample clearance so that you don't appear to be aiming to become a wing mirror ornament, and that your initial speed was such that if she checked her mirrors - like all good motorists are supposed to - she would have been aware of your presence.

Unfortunately most of these points are fairly subjective and everyone differs on degree and measurement.

You can never account for irrational people who would be frightened of their own shadow and shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car. (One assumes that anyone like that wouldn't survive long enough on a bike to be a rider).

hahaha, took me so long to type this, due to constant distractions, that I should've just waited for YellowDog's post. I agree with him!!

bogan

14th September 2009, 22:35

I judge everyone else on the road all of the time. It is how I stay safe.

Totally agree with that, and has saved me having to perform a more than a few Oh Shit maneuvers.

With regards to the granny pass, a quick flick of the headlights should let her know you're about to pass, and i agree with princessbandit, itll be the noise that pisses her off the most, had another biker do it to me once, same lane full noise pass, i was not happy, and let him know about too; just throttle off a bit when you go past.

In general I think riding with the "do unto others" is a good plan.

One of the grey areas I wonder about is where bikers are going faster than cagers normally would and therefor require another cage to give way, the cager doesn't always give way, because of incorrectly assuming the bike is going as fast as other traffic.

For example, quite often at roundabouts I have plenty of visibility and come through quickly, a cager will pull out, forcing me to slow down a bit. They pulled out because they thought I was going slower as most other traffic does in the same situation, I know I was riding well within my limit of safety, but if I got on the horn the cager would probly think I was an idiot biker hooning about, so I just slow, let them through, and be on my way.

The way I see it theres no point forcing the issue in minor/grey situations like this, because if the cage thinks they are in the right, then you just end up with another cager disliking bikes.

Mom

14th September 2009, 22:38

you give ample clearance so that you don't appear to be aiming to become a wing mirror ornament, and that your initial speed was such that if she checked her mirrors - like all good motorists are supposed to - she would have been aware of your presence.

Interesting comment. See, I am of the come up behind someone and wait a bit to see if it is safe to overtake brigade. I dont place myself at risk on purpose eh. I will choose my moment and then take it as quickly, and as safely as I possibly can. I hear you about the unexpected biker that appears out of seemingly nowhere and scares the crap out of you.

I have to say though, I favour loud pipes! Not obnoxiously loud ones mind, the straight ones that flatten grass 2 sections down the road when you fire up are not cool IMO, but a bit of good, loud, crisp noise is one of the best things a bike can have. At least they hear you even if they dont see you :yes:

hospitalfood

14th September 2009, 22:55

i agree with others that if you drive to slow you're an idiot, and if you overtake the slow driver you are a hoon. the important thing to remember is :-

hospitalfood = idiot.

mom = sweet rider.

Gremlin

15th September 2009, 01:51

Everyone slower than me is a thoughtless idiot and everyone faster is a maniac.
It really does boil down to this...

Sure, 200 through traffic in a residential suburb is obviously stupid, but I think trying to define the stuff much closer to "normal" (yet to be determined and rather hard) is actually very hard.

Doing 70-80 in the fast lane on the motorway for no real reason, could be seen as dangerous, as cars will try to undertake in other lanes, may need to speed, dodge other slow cars etc. The person in the fast lane may think the ones trying to pass are dangerous.

Who is right, and who has the authority to be right? Who determines who has the authority to pass judgement?

We have license tests, general consensus is they are too easy. We have laws, general consensus is they cater to the lowest common denominator. So we basically have people who shouldn't really be driving, on the road, yet not really breaking any laws (despite pissing of a fair portion of the population).

CookMySock

15th September 2009, 07:02

Who is right, and who has the authority to be right? Who determines who has the authority to pass judgement?Thats is a really good rhetorical question, and I reckon it summarises the thread perfectly.

Many people on the road (and in life) somehow position themselves to have full command on what judgement gets passed, when and where. Fortunately, that means jack to me. It's curious watching the enraged look on their face when they realise their pointed opinion has fallen on deaf ears and I will not comply with their request. They can cast their disparaging remarks all they like, and it will only injure their own self-esteem, not mine.

Conversely, it is not my position to expect any person to comply with my wishes at any time. I learned some time ago, that if there was something I didn't like, the sooner I got MY head around it - the better. So I shifted my own thinking so their actions didn't affect me.

It's like the neighbours rooster crowing at 5am when you live in the country. You can't do shit about it, and its not going to go away, so you will have to change how you think about it or life is going to be very hard. :bleh:

The same applies on the road. You cant change people, and you can't make them do anything, so give up on the idea now. The same applies in your relationships too.

Steve

jono035

15th September 2009, 07:39

I think we all love the freedom, wind in the hair, manoeuvreability, speed, acceleration and handling of our bikes and most of will use those advantages reasonably often on the road whether it is to just get the adrenaline buzz or to blast past a line of slow moving cars.

If we saw someone in a "boy racer" car doing the same thing we would probably bitch and moan, shake our fists, swear and dial *555 to dob them in!

Sometimes we are hypocrirtes aren't we?

I had a similar argument with my sister when it became apparent that she had absolutely no qualms about calling *555 over people doing things that I had seen her do plenty of times (slightly dodgy overtaking, tailgating, not paying attention and wandering in the lane). Her reply was basically 'well it's ok because I know what I'm doing and its safe'...

Since then I've tried to drive in a way that is closer to my perception of acceptable for other, random road users, not just myself.

DB: That's an interesting one about the neighbours rooster. That is a thin line kind of thing though. As the stupid extreme case, if your neighbours were pretty much nocturnal and had their concert level stereo on all night playing music you hated to the point where it seriously affected your ability to sleep, would you consider that reasonable? For me the rooster is on the level of "just get used to it" but everyone has their own thresholds for what is 'acceptable' to them. Some people may not care about the music but absolutely abhor the rooster...

Nagash

15th September 2009, 08:47

A quick note: Everything said in this post considers the drivers mentioned to be competent drivers with a degree of spacial awareness, just general poor drivers are a different matter.

A very smart person on here (I won't name them) once said to me that a hoon on the road has the advantage in an emergency situation, because they've most likely been in that situation before, so they know how to get themselves out of it.

While someone who always sticks to the speed limit, never does anything overly dangerous, and always drives safely, when they come into an emergency situation, they won't have any idea on how to get out of it.

That's considering that they don't take any driving courses, or practice emergency braking in a safe environment etc. etc. And I think this is true.

The same goes for boy racers I believe, while I absolutely hate their attitude to driving fast, I have seen them get themselves out of some amazing situations, along with bikers. Would they have gotten into that situation in the first place were their driving habits different? Possibly, but possibly not.

Whether or not the way you drive is perceived as dangerous, or what's being called in this thread 'stupid' it's difficult to discuss because they're different things.

It's been drilled into us since primary school what is generally considered 'safe' driving, and what is considered dangerous. I personally think that bikers who like to go fast or drive in a dangerous way, know deep down they are doing so, and that's probably where half the fun is.

However, whether or not the individual themself considers themselves to be stupid is completely different. It's unimportant whether someone else thinks they are stupid, because everyone has different views on what is stupid or not. The driver or rider themselves would probably have more difficulty accepting that they are an idiot, and honestly believe that they are being as safe as possible, while still driving in the manner they want to. Rarely is this true, and is more a degree of self delusion.

For example: I think I ride fast, though i've seen plenty of people ride faster. Some people who ride faster then me in a controlled, and skilled manner i'm envious of their ability, those who are faster then me but are all over the place I consider stupid. That said, i've considered some of those slower than me to be stupid aswell.

Which brings me rather neatly to my point: What we consider stupid, we base off our own driving stigma, in some way or another. Which renders it all rather null, cause someone sure as rain in winter is going to think that your driving is stupid.

Sorry for the long post.
tl;dr :banana: Just stare at this for a bit.. isn't it cool?!

CookMySock

15th September 2009, 08:51

Her reply was basically 'well it's ok because I know what I'm doing and its safe'...hehe yeah, well we all know best don't we. :blip:

Since then I've tried to drive in a way that is closer to my perception of acceptable for other, random road users, not just myself.The cool thing I have discovered about bikes is, very very quickly after some twat gets angry with me and decides to take have a go at me on the road - I am already long gone!! LOL. Then they can reconcile their feelings with their actions at their own pace - nothing to do with me. Maybe they can beat their mrs up or something, but its not my problem.

if your neighbours were pretty much nocturnal and had their concert level stereo on all night playing music you hated to the point where it seriously affected your ability to sleep, would you consider that reasonable? Hell no. I'd go over there and kick their fucken speaker in LOL.

Nah seriously, the last time I had to deal with that, I went over there in my pajamas at 2am and drank heaps of their grog and told the saaaaaadest story you have everrrrrr heard in your life. I fucken nearly had them all in tears. They all went home after that. Whenever they had a loud party I'd turn up and do the same again. Their parties sucked after that and they gave up.

Steve

rickstv

15th September 2009, 08:57

Some times before overtaking I think to myself would I do this if the Ginger cop was watching,:nono: which makes me re evaluate my wish to overtake if there is even the slightest risk. Maybe it has kept me safe, who knows.:niceone:
Rick

crazyhorse

15th September 2009, 08:58

I guess it comes down to each individual and their conscience. Good thread MOM :niceone:

duckonin

15th September 2009, 09:02

Simply put , and idiot is one who "endangers" others, regardless of what they are doing, there are plenty of idiots in the world..

CookMySock

15th September 2009, 09:03

Everything said in this post considers the drivers mentioned to be competent drivers with a degree of spacial awareness, just general poor drivers are a different matter.

[....] a hoon on the road has the advantage in an emergency situation, because they've most likely been in that situation before, so they know how to get themselves out of it. You should do a defensive driving course. You will see things a lot differently.

A good racer does not make a good driver. It would be fine if they developed their skills on the track, and then travelled on the road well within them, but that is not what happens at all.

More like, they develop their skills with your pissed teenage daughter in the back seat on her boyfriends lap.. and sometimes learn the hard way.

Steve

mister.koz

15th September 2009, 09:13

I am quite often in and out of cars to get away from them. I think the more distance i have on them the better. I am not talking about 200km/h in town on one wheel flipping the bird, just getting around and away when time and safety permit.

The idiot label is subjective because the average jo driving home in his cage, pootling along without a thought or fear of anything may perceve me as an idiot because i zipped out past him where no car could/would.

I think it comes down to perception. Out on the open road with riders that i trust is where i let the bike out. If someone was standing on the side of the road, the roar of 5 or more sports bikes at speed would seem unnecessary and we would all look like idiots. They have no idea that this is our playground and when we encounter other traffic we slow down and pass where we can.

I usually think of all other vehicles on the road as idiots, its saved my skin a few times because i was right 0.5% of the time. But i still let people in and i still give room for not only other people's margin of error but my own. If someone makes a mistake you can't really bullocks them like they are evil and it was intended.

The other day there was a guy in a ute doing 60 in an 80, traffic locked up both ways. When i came up behind him he intentionally moved right so i couldn't sneak past... he was an idiot... sure enough when there was a safe place to pass i did and he was fuming, poor guy, imagine driving 20k under the limit and having a (fairly powerful) vehicle passing you in a safe place... oh the shame.

When i am in a cage or on the bike and a quicker vehicle comes up behind me, i give them plenty of room. Hell they're either way more skilled than me or they are going to drive off the next corner, i'd rather not be a part of either...

In the thick of it i reckon that the key to it is courtesy, if everyone on the road was doing their own thing and playing nice and polite around each other then i think things would be safer/better but thats a happy fuzzy bunny land idea, fact is people are tied up in their own reality and thus have a completely different perception.

Its not really anthing to do with the law because as sidewinder said, people can be idiots well within the legal limits.

Nagash

15th September 2009, 09:14

You should do a defensive driving course. You will see things a lot differently.

A good racer does not make a good driver. It would be fine if they developed their skills on the track, and then travelled on the road well within them, but that is not what happens at all.

Couple of points, I have done a defensive driving course, along with a couple of other driving courses. But that's of little relevance,

At no point did I say a good racer makes a *good* driver,

What I said was someone who is more likely to get themselves into the situation of a potential accident, is more likely going to learn sooner or later, how to get themselves out of it.

I say that considering that the way they drive is a passion or a hobby to them, so they seek to improve their ability in that field. Whether it's by doing courses, practicing on the track, even mucking about in a car park. It all helps.

MadDuck

15th September 2009, 09:25

I have to say though, I favour loud pipes! Not obnoxiously loud ones mind, the straight ones that flatten grass 2 sections down the road when you fire up are not cool IMO, but a bit of good, loud, crisp noise is one of the best things a bike can have. At least they hear you even if they dont see you :yes:

:bleh: you referring to me ah? LMAO nah honestly a lot of car drivers are not only blind but they are also deaf as I have discovered.

Some times before overtaking I think to myself would I do this if the Ginger cop was watching

This is often what I think when its right on the limit. You know the annoying times when on the main highway you have come up on Granny and when you go to overtake this Granny finally finds the acclerator and works out what the speed limit is.

Thus meaing overtaking will mean exceeding the speed limit enough to incur an infringement if Mr Plod is around the corner.

bogan

15th September 2009, 09:36

...
The cool thing I have discovered about bikes is, very very quickly after some twat gets angry with me and decides to take have a go at me on the road - I am already long gone!! LOL. Then they can reconcile their feelings with their actions at their own pace - nothing to do with me. Maybe they can beat their mrs up or something, but its not my problem.
...

The fact that you can be gone very quickly does not change the fact that youve added to the road rage out there, and made someone more angry at bikers (we probably all get lumpted together). The fast get-away factor with bikes does not give us carte blanch to act as we like, and karma is very difficult to outrun.

wysper

15th September 2009, 09:41

Simply put , and idiot is one who "endangers" others, regardless of what they are doing, there are plenty of idiots in the world..

I don't think it is as simple as that. Using Mom's example of zipping past the corrolla - maybe scaring the shit out of the old lady. Dangerous.

Say I was driving the corolla. Checked my mirrors, saw mom comming, so when she zipped passed I was not surprised. Not dangerous. So because you don't know who the other road user is or what their mental state is, fears are etc. It is pretty hard to judge the danger or stupidity of a given act.

In the thick of it i reckon that the key to it is courtesy, if everyone on the road was doing their own thing and playing nice and polite around each other then i think things would be safer/better but thats a happy fuzzy bunny land idea, fact is people are tied up in their own reality and thus have a completely different perception.
.

And that could be it. Something as simple as courtesy which seems absent in so many areas of society these days.

Maybe you need not to judge a situation by your standard but by a more common courtesy standard. Pretty difficult to define I would say. And would not be welcomed by many.

I think I ride courteously, but I am sure I have passed people who thought the pass was dangerous. Went past people on the side of the road who thought my bike was too loud. Parked my bike somewhere that someone thought I was obnoxious and rude.

Stupid is often in the eye of the beholder, and in this instance, you are not that beholder.

MSTRS

15th September 2009, 10:03

...fact is people are tied up in their own reality and thus have a completely different perception.

And that is why the term 'idiot' is mostly subjective.

A wee story...
My wife was in the passenger seat of my father's car, acting as guide. They came up to a T intersection and stopped prior to turning right. There was no-one coming from the right, but to the left there is a curved bridge less than 100m away. If there is a vehicle coming into view on the bridge, there is not enough time for the vehicle turning right to pull out first. So...there was a Harley coming over the bridge, my father presumeably didn't see it and pulled out. The HD rider flicked right to avoid him, and flipped him the finger with his left hand as he went past. My father says "Look at that idiot, he'll lose his arm riding like that". My wife says "He's lucky he didn't lose his life, the way you pulled out on him".

Objectively, my father was the idiot. But...
Subjectively, my wife was an idiot for getting in the car with him. The biker was an idiot (cos I don't think he had his light on). The engineer who designed that intersection was an idiot for placing it so close to a blind approach from the left.

The term 'cager' is perfect to describe my father. He has been driving for some 60+ years. I believe he's had one accident in his life. Which was not his fault. BUT...I shudder to think of what 'carnage' he has left in his wake, since he is oblivious to so much of what goes on around him. And nothing will ever convince him that he is the idiot. Because, to him, his driving 'record' speaks for itself...

davebullet

15th September 2009, 10:06

A simple test.. would you do it if a cop was following you?

If so - then the person observing has the issue (the old lady / corolla example). If not - you have the issue.

Notice I mentioned a cop following you... .not whether it was legal. Often people will be better behaved when the law is present - moreso than the law requires.

The other test for idiocy is whether consideration for other road users flashes through your mind BEFORE your maneouvre (not an oh shit that was close, or I got away with it AFTER the maneouvre).

CookMySock

15th September 2009, 10:19

A simple test.. would you do it if a cop was following you?I don't think that is a good test. Many people revert to squeaky-clean behaviour when followed by the fuzz. I usually hurtle around like a low-level bomber, but turn into a nana when followed by the cops. I wonder why? :pinch:

The fact that you can be gone very quickly does not change the fact that youve added to the road rage out there, and made someone more angry at bikers (we probably all get lumpted together). The fast get-away factor with bikes does not give us carte blanch to act as we like, and karma is very difficult to outrun.These people get angry at things in general anyway. You can't fix them and you can't prevent it. Stop trying. The only thing you can do is not be there.

Steve

Fatjim

15th September 2009, 10:23

An idiot to me is someone who thinks painting double yellow lines on the Rimutukas is going to

a. Stop twits crossing the centre line on blind corners
b. Stop idiots from crossing the centreline cause they are going to fast.
c. Stop bikes from overtaking when its safe to do so.

Fatjim

15th September 2009, 10:25

I usually hurtle around like a low-level bomber...

Steve

Doesn't that make the Ice cream curdle?

mowgli

15th September 2009, 10:37

And that is why the term 'idiot' is mostly subjective.

[snip]

Objectively, my father was the idiot. But...
Subjectively, my wife was an idiot for getting in the car with him. The biker was an idiot (cos I don't think he had his light on). The engineer who designed that intersection was an idiot for placing it so close to a blind approach from the left.

If you're being objective then technically the rider was also an idiot for taking the corner at such a speed that he couldn't stop in the clear road ahead thus necessitating an evasive manoeuvre.

I know of a driver who pulled out in similar circumstances to your father (was a blind rise not a corner). The approaching car braked heavily and a rear ender ensued. The cops measured the skid marks and determined that the other guy was travelling too fast for how far he could see and that the turning driver could not possibly have seen him to give way. The non-turning driver was found at fault.

Lesson: If you come over a blind rise to find a vehicle turning into your path, don't brake :msn-wink:

EnzoYug

15th September 2009, 10:40

For me it's pretty simple. Talk to cagers. (win hearts and minds)

At the gas station open the door and hold it for others, wave, say hi to people, SMILE DAMMIT. When lane splitting and someone makes a hole for you or opens a gap, give them a little wave.

All these things change the impression you give motorists.

Because people are not their actions - but if someone doesn't know Who You Are then they can judge you only on your actions. I judge someone I don't know on the information available to me. Those I see acting like a dick head, are dick heads.

Chances are good however that the one dodgy overtaking manoeuvre was just that - one, isolated manoeuvre. If cagers know us to be an otherwise rather friendly bunch of motorists then they'll be less likely to hold single, maybe foolish actions against us.

Usual Caveat: If you ride like a complete fuckwit then good luck with that, all the best to your family etc...

slofox

15th September 2009, 10:57

I am sure some people think I am a loon when I overtake a truck and trailer unit on the highway - you all know the drill - he's at 95km/hr and there's a line up behind him.

You can't really pass these guys at 100km/hr without being on the wrong side of the road for about two hours...so you chop it down and crank it past. (Well, I do anyway...hehehe)

When I do this, I am usually pretty quickly back down to a reasonable speed after getting clear of the truck unit. I am with mister.koz on this - I like to ride in space. Can't stand being in a wolf-pack, on the bike OR in the cage. Stats would suggest that more accidents happen there than when you are in a space.

In general I try to be pretty safe on the bike - I am too old now to fall off without busting stuff. Besides I might scratch the bike...

My general rule is whether or not I embarrass myself. If I think I am a loon, then I probably am...and it happens often enough to keep me on my toes.

bogan

15th September 2009, 11:18

These people get angry at things in general anyway. You can't fix them and you can't prevent it. Stop trying. The only thing you can do is not be there.

Of course there are people like this, but I can't tell the difference between people who want to get angry, and those who generally take offence. So I err on the side of courtesy, has the advantage that no-one trys to run me off the road!

An idiot to me is someone who thinks painting double yellow lines on the Rimutukas is going to

a. Stop twits crossing the centre line on blind corners
b. Stop idiots from crossing the centreline cause they are going to fast.
c. Stop bikes from overtaking when its safe to do so.

Well it will on rainy days, double yellow is twice the amount of ridiculously slippery road surface.

For me it's pretty simple. Talk to cagers. (win hearts and minds)

At the gas station open the door and hold it for others, wave, say hi to people, SMILE DAMMIT. When lane splitting and someone makes a hole for you or opens a gap, give them a little wave.

All these things change the impression you give motorists.

Excellent point, its not just the on road behaviour people judge you for.

FROSTY

15th September 2009, 11:37

One little reality check. EVERY biker I know from a total novice to the rossi's of this world is or has been at one time that idiot we shake our heads at. Theres that monment you think back on and go "shit that was dumb"
Most of the time we "get away with it".
I've always though the measure of the man is how he reacts when he's stuffed up.

slofox

15th September 2009, 11:53

One little reality check. EVERY biker I know from a total novice to the rossi's of this world is or has been at one time that idiot we shake our heads at. Theres that monment you think back on and go "shit that was dumb"
Most of the time we "get away with it".
I've always though the measure of the man is how he reacts when he's stuffed up.

If I think I am a loon, then I probably am...and it happens often enough to keep me on my toes.

Yep - like the man says...

2wheeldrifter

15th September 2009, 12:36

In that particular scenario it's not the speed that would be the issue. What would put you into the "idiot" category IMO would be things like doing it with an incredibly noisy bike (sounding more like a jet engine than a bike), while passing with bare centimetres clearance from her side panels, and doing it having come up so fast behind her that you truly "came out of nowhere" and blitzed her.

To counter these points: you're not aiming to scare her shitless with noise (although the poor old dear probably didn't have her hearing aid in anyway), you give ample clearance so that you don't appear to be aiming to become a wing mirror ornament, and that your initial speed was such that if she checked her mirrors - like all good motorists are supposed to - she would have been aware of your presence.

Unfortunately most of these points are fairly subjective and everyone differs on degree and measurement.

I agree with PB :niceone:

Am I perceived as an idiot on the road when riding??......... As little as I can be, Like Frosty has said "shit that was a dumb move" I made a misjudgement of the situation, (cagers now think I am an idiot, "fuckin biker"!!) so one bad move and I am labeled for life... or we bikers are?

But I am good safe rider!! I want to live, I am not a cat with nine live's! But I can tell you now.. Yes I will make another bad call one day... not that I want too, it's just that I am human and I make mistakes and others will see as "been an idiot". :blank:

I can't avoid the other idiots on the road, but just be ready for them and hope I am not distracted by a damn sneeze or something. :Oi:

mashman

15th September 2009, 12:42

An idiot, to me, is someone who is just not paying attention to their surroundings, be it in a car, on foot, bike etc... As such they perform an idiotic action, earning them the tag of idiot through the lack of consideration shown towards those around them... If it's not an accident, then there's an idiot very very nearby... It's in how you pass, distance left between you and others, parking in a disabled spot when able bodied, all things that are purposeful concious actions...

Marmoot

15th September 2009, 13:19

If, by how you ride, there suddenly exist an idiot around you that can affect you and your motorcycle in a bad way (i.e., may cause you to crash) then you're the idiot.

It's that simple.

That includes a vehicle around you who may suddenly decide to be an idiot, or someone that is not currently there that suddenly decides to appear (e.g., a car popping out from a sideroad without looking).

Reserve is not a luxury. Reserve is a necessity.

Edbear

15th September 2009, 13:40

It is about time that a thread on taking personal responsibility for your actions on the road, and how those actions will impact the general populace and how they view us bikers in future, is actually given some considered and positive debate on here. All too often certain members with genuine and heartfelt opinions can railroad a discussion into a meaningless slanging match, often accompanied by abuse and red rep flying, coupled with a few infractions as a side dish.

Lets see if it is possible to have an adult, mature discussion on this. I am not interested in seeing shit talk in this thread, nor do I want to see abuse, or funny to some pisstaking, if you cant contribute in an adult way please refrain from saying anything.

So, ground rules established here goes.

I am sure that we would all agree that idiots on the road, whether they ride bikes or drive cars are the bain of our lives as we make our way from A to B on our bikes. I am equally as sure that we would all agree that being an idiot on the road does not look good to anyone.

What defines an idiot? Well I guess that all depends on where you sit on the "things that seem crazy to some people will be nothing to worry about to others" scale. How do we tell the difference when we are pootling along enjoying our own ride?

Because I chopped down a gear and flew past that Granny in her Corolla doing 80 on the open road, does that make me an idiot? I never went over 110kph, but I passed her. Sure there was a bend in the road ahead, but I knew there was heaps of room to make that pass easily, and safely. How did she feel about it? Perhaps I scared the snot out of her and I am now confined to the "bloody idiot" category too?

So, how do we tell? How do we mitigate the perceived image we portray when doing our thing, if we relegate ourselves to "idiot" status in all innocence?

Remember folks, this is a discussion for grown ups. Lets see if we can manage to behave in this thread as well as we would expect all bikers to behave on the road, with courtesy and respect.

GO!

Awww, okay, I'll try really hard... :msn-wink:

In that particular scenario it's not the speed that would be the issue. What would put you into the "idiot" category IMO would be things like doing it with an incredibly noisy bike (sounding more like a jet engine than a bike), while passing with bare centimetres clearance from her side panels, and doing it having come up so fast behind her that you truly "came out of nowhere" and blitzed her.

To counter these points: you're not aiming to scare her shitless with noise (although the poor old dear probably didn't have her hearing aid in anyway), you give ample clearance so that you don't appear to be aiming to become a wing mirror ornament, and that your initial speed was such that if she checked her mirrors - like all good motorists are supposed to - she would have been aware of your presence.

Unfortunately most of these points are fairly subjective and everyone differs on degree and measurement.

You can never account for irrational people who would be frightened of their own shadow and shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car. (One assumes that anyone like that wouldn't survive long enough on a bike to be a rider).

hahaha, took me so long to type this, due to constant distractions, that I should've just waited for YellowDog's post. I agree with him!!

So true. I know I have startled drivers who's minds were anywhere but on their driving and while they should have known I was there they were completely oblivious until I was nearly past...

One little reality check. EVERY biker I know from a total novice to the rossi's of this world is or has been at one time that idiot we shake our heads at. Theres that monment you think back on and go "shit that was dumb"
Most of the time we "get away with it".
I've always though the measure of the man is how he reacts when he's stuffed up.

Usually with a sharp intake of breath and an "Oh Crap!" while either braking or swerving hard!

Unless, you mean afterwards, of course... I have slowed down a bit when lanesplitting after a couple of close calls lately. Now most I opine would blame the car driver for the near miss as they suddenly braked or swerved for no apparent reason, but I take responsibility for the flat-spots on my front and rear tyres and little credit for avoiding an impact.

Especially when lanesplitting, does one need to ride as though one is invisible and to expect drivers to act irrationally. The fact that that young lady in the Corolla didn't need to slam her brakes on at that moment and the reason she did was that she wasn't concentrating on the traffic ahead and got a wee fright to notice it had slowed causing her to hit the brake a bit harder than she normally would have, which meant I locked up the front and came about a mm away from hitting her left rear quarter as I was about to split past and had proceeded knowing I had minimum room between the two cars makes it my fault in my mind if I had hit her and been knocked under the car to my left. Whew!

I am always mindful of that old verse, "Here lies the body of William Gray, who died maintaining his right of way. He was right, dead right as he sped along, but now he's just a s dead as if he'd been dead wrong!"

So whether right or wrong, I ride to survive. It's little comfort to wag your finger at the other driver from your hospital bed or coffin...

tigertim20

15th September 2009, 14:25

not reading the whole thread, but to respond to Mom, My perspective is two fold.
One, there arent so much idiot drivers, more idiotic driving manouvres. I consider myself a good competent driver/rider, but am not 100% innocent, I have done the odd silly thing on the road, whether due to lack of thought, or genuinely not realising it was silly. I hae also seen other, very carefull, experienced drivers make a mistake, none of us are perfect.
Second, I think that those acts are defined as any act while in control of a vehicle, that is performed or executed without suffient time taken to observe ALL surroundings, in order to be as sure as possible that the manouver will not cause any forseeable danger or concern to other motorists.

Thus you have covered passing 80km granny, as taking the time to know you have room, and have given her space is not causing danger. It also includes indicating for a sufficient period of time (something I need to work on at times) before exucting that manouver so granny is aware of what is happening.
How do we acheive this end? well thats the sourse of an ever encircling ongoing debate on KB isnt it!

YellowDog

15th September 2009, 14:43

Today was a great example.

I was riding home and enjoying myself as I always do. Not speeding excessively, but just using as much of the road as possible and riding smoothly.

An old duffer pulls out of a side street with his missus in the car next to him. He is about 50m infront of me and doing about 30kph. I am frustrated as he has ruined my flow. I slow and look to pass, he sits on aroud 40kph and is really in the way. I just want to push past and blast away.

10 years ago, that is exactly what I would have done. But instead I just told myself "play time is over". This old duffer is minding his own business and driving with reasonable care (all be it too damn slow for my liking) and has not done anything wrong. So rather than blast past and potentially annoy him and his wife, I just sat back at 40kph for a coupe of minutes before the road widened to 2 lanes.

Funny thing though, we passed a Police check point at 40kph. I may have otherwise been borderline for the speed limit.

Thanks old duffer :)

FROSTY

15th September 2009, 15:01

Ya know something that really makes me laugh is that very few people admit that their driving is below average.
But everybody has off days and days when you're not on the ball.
Whats cool is to just say hey- Sorry mr driver I stuffed up have a nice day.

MSTRS

15th September 2009, 15:05

Ya know something that really makes me laugh is that very few people admit that their driving is below average.
But everybody has off days and days when you're not on the ball.
Whats cool is to just say hey- Sorry mr driver I stuffed up have a nice day.

But but but....yeah, ok, you are right. Not even Jesus was perfect.
Where's that photo?

jono035

15th September 2009, 15:05

Ya know something that really makes me laugh is that very few people admit that their driving is below average.
But everybody has off days and days when you're not on the ball.
Whats cool is to just say hey- Sorry mr driver I stuffed up have a nice day.

Yeah, there is a proper psychological term for that but I can't remember what it is, damnit.

MSTRS

15th September 2009, 15:07

Arrogance, tempered by Modesty. :whistle:

YellowDog

15th September 2009, 16:45

Ya know something that really makes me laugh is that very few people admit that their driving is below average.
But everybody has off days and days when you're not on the ball.
Whats cool is to just say hey- Sorry mr driver I stuffed up have a nice day.
I do sometimes have some real crap days when things just don't go as they should.

I have to stop and count to 10.

Slowly.

It's not my fault, it's everyone else around me putting me off :rofl:

Mom

15th September 2009, 18:00

i agree with others that if you drive to slow you're an idiot, and if you overtake the slow driver you are a hoon. the important thing to remember is :-

hospitalfood = idiot.

mom = sweet rider.

This is not about my riding though, it is about all of us, how we ride on the road, and the effects our riding has on the opinions of other road users about bikers in general.

Some times before overtaking I think to myself would I do this if the Ginger cop was watching,:nono: which makes me re evaluate my wish to overtake if there is even the slightest risk. Maybe it has kept me safe, who knows.:niceone:
Rick

I am not talking about being a total nana on the road either here, I am talking about riding along in the "zone" for want of a better word and the effect that riding has on others perceptions of us. We are not all idiots by a long way, in fact I would venture to suggest that many of us are fairly interested in our own survival and ride accordingly. However, I have absolutely no doubt that sometimes we can create a negative opinion of bikers by our own actions out on the roads.

The other test for idiocy is whether consideration for other road users flashes through your mind BEFORE your maneouvre (not an oh shit that was close, or I got away with it AFTER the maneouvre).

I liked your cop following comment, but this one I really like! I guess I am an idiot then, for I have had a few of those "oh shit" moments in my riding career, usually my own fault too I might add. Mind you having said that, those moments for me have been solo efforts, me and my bike and a bit of road that I under thought. I have been fortunate though to have escaped catastrophe, whether that is as a result of my riding skills or simple dumb luck I dont know. I make an effort not to piss people off in traffic.

Ixion

15th September 2009, 18:38

Most of the cagers who complain about bikes are simply haters. They hate bikes, but they hate most things also. We're just one of the things on their hate list.

They respond aggressively and hostiley to anything that they can't do or anything that in their perception challenges their position as alpha male.

The measure and proof of this is that their aggro is not just related to road incidents.

And I had a classic case today.

Leaving Sky City carpark after attending TechEd, where I had parked up in the (marked) motorcycle park area (thanks Sky City, it's appreciated). Ride up to the barrier arm at the exit and ride round it. As Sky City know we do. All good. Except to Mr Alpha Male, exiting in the adjacent lane . Who immediately starts honking his horn, winds down his passenger window and lets forth with a long tirade of hatred and obscenity. Not sure what it was , helmet and all, but it wasn't nice.

Now, here is an example of something completely legal , which did not inconvenience or endanger him in any way whatsover.

But he saw it as appropriate to respond with agression and hatred. He saw someone doing that which he could not and that was sufficient for him to swing into hating mode.

NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING that bikers can or could do can avert that hating. It is a pathlogical part of his nature. And I certainly do not intend to spend my life trying to justify my existence to people like that.

So i just gave him the fingers and tootled on my way .

short-circuit

15th September 2009, 18:43

So i just gave him the fingers and tootled on my way .

That's the one :2thumbsup

AD345

15th September 2009, 18:50

Why angst over other peoples perceptions? Seriously.

Yes, yes, - "they" will do something about "us" if "we" don't do something first.

Well, I'm afraid I have to call B.S.

I've been involved in a lot of fringe motorised activites and the perceived threat to the freedom of those in any given fringe is ALWAYS and WITHOUT EXCEPTION simple paranoia on the part of the participants more than it is an impingement on the public consciouness.

"what about the boi-racers?" some might cry. "there's been laws passed against them!"
This is true. Those laws, however, have only created narrower interpratations of previously existing laws and, like most such legislation passed in a mood of hysteria, the impact has been more in the headlines than on the ground....

But I digress.

In response to the OP - I never think about how my riding might impact on the wider public consciousness of riders in general.

Ever.

.

Mom

15th September 2009, 18:53

In response to the OP - I never think about how my riding might impact of the wider public consciousness of riders in general.
Ever

Well you know something, neither do I really, I ride how I do. But I do make an effort not to piss people off as I go about my pootle. Having said that, look at Ixions post, he was not doing anything inconsiderate to that wanker that abused him, but it still happened.

I cant remember who, but someone mentioned consideration. Maybe that is the key?

doc

15th September 2009, 18:56

It is about time that a thread on taking personal responsibility for your actions on the road,
So, ground rules established here goes.

Remember folks, this is a discussion for grown ups. Lets see if we can manage to behave in this thread as well as we would expect all bikers to behave on the road, with courtesy and respect.

GO!

Faaark had to refresh the page twice. This is KB.

:hug:

AD345

15th September 2009, 18:58

Well you know something, neither do I really, I ride how I do. But I do make an effort not to piss people off as I go about my pootle. Having said that, look at Ixions post, he was not doing anything inconsiderate to that wanker that abused him, but it still happened.

I cant remember who, but someone mentioned consideration. Maybe that is the key?

Hmmm

I tend to try to do this:

But I do make an effort not to piss people off

in a lot more parts of my life than just riding.

Thats comes with the caveat that it is meant in the sense of not undertaking something just for the sake of pissing someone else off (generally).

if, on the other hand, someone gets pissed off by something that I do, I generally view it as more their problem than mine.

Ixion

15th September 2009, 19:14

I do think a lot of the "of dear oh dear, people will hate us" is misplaced angst.

I just don't see it.

Most certainly courtesy and consideration is the key , on a bike or in a car. But I think that this is really pretty much the norm.

Every day I am the beneficiary of at least one act of consideration or courtesy by another road user (three, today). People who put themselves out in some way to accomodate or convenience me

And I actively, in turn, look for opportunities to reciprocate. They are by means hard to find.

Certainly there is a small proportion of raving nutters and/or haters out there. And a small proportion of people so dozy and incompetent that they object to the unobjectionable simply because they don't understand it.

But these people (and they are found both on bikes and in cars) are far far outnumbered by the courteous and capable road users.In cars and on bikes.

How I ride is of course perceived by others. In some cases negatively. But, I hope, in far more cases , positively. The truck driver who acknowledges my "after you" with a quick double indicator flash. The middleaged lady waving thanks. The others who do not specifically acknowledge (because it's really not necessary) but who, I'm sure, take away a positive vibe .

To the extent that our riding is noticed at all, I believe that for the majority of riders, the positive far outweighs the negative.

Mom

15th September 2009, 20:09

Most certainly courtesy and consideration is the key , on a bike or in a car. But I think that this is really pretty much the norm.

To the extent that our riding is noticed at all, I believe that for the majority of riders, the positive far outweighs the negative.

Well now, we agree!

beyond

15th September 2009, 20:28

This question is a difficult one, in that as Ixion pointed out, there are many drivers out there who just hate motorcyclists for whatever reason.

If you ride fast or slow or are careful, it doesn't matter to them. It is best to put as much room between you and them as you can.

The question of mild mannered drivers: what is mild mannered, what is a good driver and a bad driver? You can overtake a car driver at well within the legal limit and safely and they will still think you are a hoon or dangerous, in many cases.

Some people never look in their rear view mirror and you will scare the shit out of them no matter how hard you try not to and they will definitley take a negative reaction.

Some think they drive fast but in reality travel well below the speed limit and anyone faster is considered a reckless hoon. Others think they are being shown up and try to stop you overtaking, even to the point of swerving out to try and knock you off.

I try to allow drivers plenty of time to see me and often, the good ones will pull over to let you pass even though they don't need to. I always wave at them as I pass to say thanks for the consideration.

There is no way we will be perceived by all drivers as good sorts so ride your own ride and give motorists as much consideration as you can whilst not endangering yourself around them.

Squiggles

15th September 2009, 20:40

If i make a pass on someone and it puts their lives unneccesarily at risk (more than they normally would be), then i am an idiot. Also, should i bring motorcyclings "good" name into disrepute (similar to how "boyracers" bring the name of car enthusiasts into disrepute), i'd consider myself to be acting idioticly.

Pedrostt500

15th September 2009, 20:41

I generaly don't worry about what others may think, what they think is what they think.
yep read the book got the tee shirt for being an idiot, and been called as much here in some threads.
The thing about Defensive driving / riding is you have to some times think for other road users, some times its good just to give way even if you are the one in the right, because its no good to your loved ones if you are DEAD RIGHT, and belive me there are worse things than being dead.
most car drivers view the world happening around them, from the safty of their steel cocoon, on a bike we are interacting in the world, a minor accident in a car may buckel a panel or two, a minor accident on a bike can have far more serious implications, to rider and bike.
Any trip that i get from point "A" to point "Z", with out knowingly causing any one else, or myself, harm or damage, has to be a good trip, regardless how slow or fast I made that trip.

rickstv

15th September 2009, 20:59

Although I would be slightly annoyed at myself if I accidentally did something stupid in front of a car. I would bloody embarrassed in front of another motorcyclist.
I think I would like the earth to just swallow me up.:sweatdrop
Rick.

Fatjim

16th September 2009, 09:59

But but but....yeah, ok, you are right. Not even Jesus was perfect.

I think Jesus would be the only fella that could ride a Tuono and not be tempted to continuously break the law.

Tuono, it's my cross. But bearing it sure is fun.

MarkH

16th September 2009, 18:54

Ya know something that really makes me laugh is that very few people admit that their driving is below average.

If you survey every driver you will find that more than 80% believe that they are above average drivers. The phenomenon does have a name: Lake Wobegon effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wobegon_effect)

I like to call it 'delusions of adequacy'.

Katman

16th September 2009, 19:11

If you survey every driver you will find that more than 80% believe that they are above average drivers. The phenomenon does have a name: Lake Wobegon effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wobegon_effect)

I like to call it 'delusions of adequacy'.

And that phenomenon is equally applicable to motorcyclists.

jono035

16th September 2009, 21:34

If you survey every driver you will find that more than 80% believe that they are above average drivers. The phenomenon does have a name: Lake Wobegon effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wobegon_effect)

I like to call it 'delusions of adequacy'.

Aha! That's the bugger, thanks mate :D

caseye

17th September 2009, 08:10

If we as riders/ car drivers could be persuaded to try being courteous and considerate things would start to change on a large scale.
How could it not? if every other driver out there was suddenly waved through, given that park, smiled at instead of flipped a birdy, they'd freak out! Then they'd realsie that the road can be a safer and happier place, then horror of horrors they'd actually begin practising being courteous and considerate themselves.
Pinch me! I'm dreamning again.I try to behave well at all times, biking or driving, I see the same people on the same stretch of motorway everyday and lately I see more and more nice things being done for each other, it's really quite cool.
Nice work there Mom, it's got em all thinking.

jono035

17th September 2009, 14:58

If we as riders/ car drivers could be persuaded to try being courteous and considerate things would start to change on a large scale.
How could it not? if every other driver out there was suddenly waved through, given that park, smiled at instead of flipped a birdy, they'd freak out! Then they'd realsie that the road can be a safer and happier place, then horror of horrors they'd actually begin practising being courteous and considerate themselves.
Pinch me! I'm dreamning again.I try to behave well at all times, biking or driving, I see the same people on the same stretch of motorway everyday and lately I see more and more nice things being done for each other, it's really quite cool.
Nice work there Mom, it's got em all thinking.

I disagree. Most people (in my opinion, your mileage may vary etc.) do not drive consciously. Being courteous to other drivers/riders requires concious thought or a change in the way that driver behaves subconciously, which takes concious thought.

Try being in the car with someone who isn't some form of 'driving enthusiast' and questioning them on a decision they have made while driving. Any time I have ever done this it has been greeted with a 'oh, I didn't even realise I had done that' or a flat out denial.