Ageing biker come-back

[dpex]

It's certainly a vexing issue. But is it the riders or their selection of bike?

Those great big, ugly Harleys and the various look-a-likes are horrid bikes for most New Zealand roads, except maybe the motorways.

It seems to me that the Japanese, particularly, would not have spent gazillions of dollars designing very fast, very capable bikes with the seating-to-grips positions requiring the rider to be...at some level...leaned forward. And with significant ground-clearance. Moreover, just looking into the corner makes the bike follow.

Yet with the Harley look-alikes, you look into a corner and end up in the opposite field, or gully, or bus, or lamp-post.

Earlier this week I watched a Harley-Look-a-like rider traverse a very mild corner. There he was, leaning way back, feet on his foot-plates (as opposed to pegs), no knee-contact with the bike, and semi-apes. He rolled into this mild corner at about 60Ks and his bloody right heel was scraping the road. He obviously recongised this and stood the bike up a bit and damned near hit the kerb.

So here's a question. Are Harley (and variants of design) more or less dangerous in the hands of returning, aging bikers, compared a well-balanced, sports tourers?

Remember, when we old floggs started riding back in the sixties we rode great clumping bikes with the performance of a Eunuch in a Harem, some of which were sit-up-and-beg, but most of which required a certain amount of forward lean.

But in between times, we old-floggs have been inundated with push-button everything, and a resulting expectation that everything should work as the ads say they should; especially those of us who have earned enough to indulge a whim such as a flash bike.

Notwithstanding, we old-floggs do a good line in desperately attempting to replicate our youthful days. The fact is, we may look 50 or 60 but we still 'think' we're teens, and we hate the fact we are not.

We've done our duties as regards marriages and children, and now it's time for some rejuvenated freedom from our carefree days.

Many of us have an ideology which is not congruent with reality. We remember the thumpty-thumpty-thump of the bikes we rode as kids. We want to go back there....At least the incautious do.

Me? I did the thumpity-thump bikes in the sixties. But I know, now, that my old Team Zimmer-frame, far from being the executive jet of the bike world, is still a way better designed bike for a slowing of thought, full of ego, aging biker than some American Highway inspired thumper.

Maybe we need to look at a new licence standard. One which requires every rider to complete track-A at???? Puke/Taupo/Manfield, within a certain time, before getting a full licence. And do so on the biker's bike of choice, and affixed to their licence, just to stop the clever-arses cheating.

Maybe AMCC needs to look at offering seriously discounted deals for aging Harley and Harley-look-alike riders to do some track-days.

I'd love to see the stats on crashes as regards rider age and type of bike. I'd bet that would be revealing.

[Maki]

Maybe we need to look at a new licence standard. One which requires every rider to complete track-A at???? Puke/Taupo/Manfield, within a certain time, before getting a full licence. And do so on the biker's bike of choice, and affixed to their licence, just to stop the clever-arses cheating.



Yep, track time attack sounds good to me!

[FJRider]

Yep, track time attack sounds good to me!

Why ... and risk damage to the race track ???

[Katman]

blah, blah, blah..........

Fuck you talk some shit.

[FJRider]

Fuck you talk some shit.

And you QUOTE it ... :beer:

[dpex]

Fuck you talk some shit.

Instead of...as is your usual oleagenous way, why don't you refute as opposed to providing us with your uniquely mindless comments?

[Katman]

And you QUOTE it ... :beer:

If you can call "blah, blah, blah......" quoting it.

[varminter]

Oh Gawd, you've woken him up again.:(

[jrandom]

Dude on a Harley at the last MotoTT day woulda given you the learn real good, dpex.

:doobey:

[Katman]

Instead of...as is your usual oleagenous way, why don't you refute as opposed to providing us with your uniquely mindless comments?

Alright Einstein.

What the fuck is the point of wondering whether returning motorcyclists choice of bike is resulting in more accidents? They have the right to buy whatever bike they wish.

We need to figure out how to reduce accidents (across the motorcycling board) - not work out what bikes to allocate to each category of motorcyclists.

[slowpoke]

Fuck you talk some shit.


Instead of...as is your usual oleagenous way, why don't you refute as opposed to providing us with your uniquely mindless comments?

He's sayin' what I'm thinking which kinda refutes both the unique and mindless components of your comment....

[wbks]

Alright Einstein.

What the fuck is the point of wondering whether returning motorcyclists choice of bike is resulting in more accidents? They have the right to buy whatever bike they wish.

We need to figure out how to reduce accidents (across the motorcycling board) - not work out what bikes to allocate to each category of motorcyclists.He just asked if people think that certain bikes that returning riders buy affects their crash rate. Really much of a problem?

[FJRider]

If you can call "blah, blah, blah......" quoting it.

If you can't quote correctly ... why bother ??? maybe its the Me mentality you have ... ???

[Forest]

Instead of...as is your usual oleagenous way

Oleaginous? I don't know if I'd describe him as being excessively complimentary.

[YellowDog]

I like this post as it says what I actually think. I suspect that most of the born again rider accidents can be put down to missadventure and being seduced by unrealistic expectations.

I went on an HD outing a few years back (mid-90s) as a pillion. Scraping the ground and admiring the damage from the scrapes of fellow HDers was the thing to do. I found this quite strange. I was enjoying all the super polished chrome and custom models being shown off.

I have ridden a HD V-Rod, which I though was excellent. Loads of power and well balanced. I didn't think a cruiser could corner so well. I have also ridden an M109 a few times. This takes more getting used to as whilst you can lean over pretty well, it does not feel natural and feels like there is too much rear wheel grip. But you can get used to that and the power is pretty impressive.

Cruisers look great and provided you ride them as cruisers and don't try and keep up with the sports bikes, then you won't have a problem.

Best advice: RTFM before riding.

[Katman]

He just asked if people think that certain bikes that returning riders buy affects their crash rate. Really much of a problem?

So are you suggesting that an older returning motorcyclist should be told "Sorry sir, you can't have that cruiser you have your heart set on - you have to have this sportsbike that you can't even fold your limbs into a position to be able to sit on"?

[dpex]

Dude on a Harley at the last MotoTT day woulda given you the learn real good, dpex.

:doobey:
Anytime J. Just name the place.

[FJRider]

Alright Einstein.

What the fuck is the point of wondering whether returning motorcyclists choice of bike is resulting in more accidents? They have the right to buy whatever bike they wish.

We need to figure out how to reduce accidents (across the motorcycling board) - not work out what bikes to allocate to each category of motorcyclists.

Perhaps if the returning biker gets the bike best suited for what sort of riding they will do, fewer accidents may occur. Awareness of the limitations of each type of motorcycle they may like/choose is more important than some may realise...

[Katman]

Perhaps if the returning biker gets the bike best suited for what sort of riding they will do, fewer accidents may occur. Awareness of the limitations of each type of motorcycle they may like/choose is more important than some may realise...

No-one has the right to dictate to a returning motorcyclist what type of bike they can spend their money on.

[wbks]

So are you suggesting that an older returning motorcyclist should be told "Sorry sir, you can't have that cruiser you have your heart set on - you have to have this sportsbike that you can't even fold your limbs into a position to be able to sit on"?Of course not, never suggested I thought that. I just said that he is speaking his opinion, and asking if anyone feels the same way.

[Katman]

Of course not, never suggested I thought that. I just said that he is speaking his opinion, and asking if anyone feels the same way.

Alright, so I'm saying he talks a load of shit.

What's your problem?

[wbks]

Alright, so I'm saying he talks a load of shit.

What's your problem?Lol, nothing. You're trying a bit hard by suggesting he wants to restrict what kind of bikes fully licensed riders can buy

[Big Dave]

>>It's certainly a vexing issue. But is it the riders or their selection of bike?<<

No.

[FJRider]

No-one has the right to dictate to a returning motorcyclist what type of bike they can spend their money on.

The second sentence in that quote... READ IT !!! I did not advocate dictating anything of the kind.

Informed advice at time of sale. After that ...their problem(s).

[Motu]

To me most of the fatalities seem to be on sports bikes....

Or am I just seeing incompetence in this area?

[AD345]

What the fuck is this ongoing obsession some people have with the way other people ride??

Followed inevitably by patronising, "we know best" suggestions carefully couched as "helpful ideas" and garnished with platitudes about rider safety and educating the born agains blah blah fucking blah.

The level of sanctimony being thrown about on this site sometimes is ungoddamnedbelievable.

Get the FUCK OVER yourselves

As a side note one fine day someone is going to address me as a "born again biker", or derivative thereof and the poor bastard will be wondering what inspired the sudden outburst of ultra violence before he gets the next syllable out

[ital916]

It's certainly a vexing issue....*snip*....stats on crashes as regards rider age and type of bike. I'd bet that would be revealing.

Look, bottom line is any two wheeled vehicle regardless of the cc rating can be dangerous for old/young/new/experienced/returning riders.

To class them into which brands are more dangerous is silly.

Also, whats with the harley examples, so returning riders like harleys. The biggest reason they would own one is they can afford one. Crieky, if i could afford a street glide or a night rod, it would be sitting in my garage in the blink of an eye.

Cruisers are a different style of riding. A returning rider, no matter what bike they choose will have to respect it and the road.

Simple as that. Harleys are no more dangeorus than sports bikes or vice versa. Know the machine, know your own riding limits and know that if you play silly buggers you could end up face first into a ditch.

Bikes are only as dangerous as their riders.

[Hitcher]

I'd love to see the stats on crashes as regards rider age and type of bike. I'd bet that would be revealing.

Crashes aren't generally the bike's fault.

[FJRider]

To me most of the fatalities seem to be on sports bikes....



Motorcycling is dangerous .. apparently ..... :beer:

[Big Dave]

Get the FUCK OVER yourselves


I like the 'motorcyclists are' act.
Invariably - I'm not.

[Katman]

Motorcycling is dangerous .. apparently ..... :beer:

Not as dangerous as motorcyclists are.

[FJRider]

no it's not.

Motorcyclists are.

bullshit !!!!!!

[wbks]

What the fuck is this ongoing obsession some people have with the way other people ride??

Followed inevitably by patronising, "we know best" suggestions carefully couched as "helpful ideas" and garnished with platitudes about rider safety and educating the born agains blah blah fucking blah.

The level of sanctimony being thrown about on this site sometimes is ungoddamnedbelievable.

Get the FUCK OVER yourselves

As a side note one fine day someone is going to address me as a "born again biker", or derivative thereof and the poor bastard will be wondering what inspired the sudden outburst of ultra violence before he gets the next syllable outTough cunt... I guess people feel they have the right to judge because it effects the reputation of "us all" and it takes more money out of your wallet regardless of whether you have ever crashed or not

[The Stranger]

Fuck you talk some shit.
That's up there with this gem.


You won't get "facts" off the Internet. Thats not the way the Internet works. You have make your own mind up.

[AD345]

I like the 'motorcyclists are' act.
Invariably - I'm not.

I hear that

Just by the by..........the mods for my ride have started to arrive from the states and ze transformation is imminent.

I will inevitably accrue several million more BAB points by the end.

:2thumbsup

[AD345]

Tough cunt... I guess people feel they have the right to judge because it effects the reputation of "us all" and it takes more money out of your wallet regardless of whether you have ever crashed or not

Well sonny, I Guess those who feel fit to judge me, or anyone else, do so for whatever reason they think they can hang their pathetic little prejudices on.

That makes them neither right nor wise and does nothing to improve anything for anyone.

[Katman]

Now there's a difficult question for one whose father was an ant and mother was a weasel.

I'll ask you to repeat that next time we're face to face.

[wbks]

Well sonny, I Guess those who feel fit to judge me, or anyone else, do so for whatever reason they think they can hang their pathetic little prejudices on.

I guess they do.

[peasea]

Fuck you talk some shit.

What he said, times, I dunno, ten zillion or more.......:girlfight:

[peasea]

Crashes aren't generally the bike's fault.

It's often the motherboard.

[modboy]

What the fuck is this ongoing obsession some people have with the way other people ride??

Followed inevitably by patronising, "we know best" suggestions carefully couched as "helpful ideas" and garnished with platitudes about rider safety and educating the born agains blah blah fucking blah.

The level of sanctimony being thrown about on this site sometimes is ungoddamnedbelievable.

Get the FUCK OVER yourselves

As a side note one fine day someone is going to address me as a "born again biker", or derivative thereof and the poor bastard will be wondering what inspired the sudden outburst of ultra violence before he gets the next syllable out

Couldn't agree more !!

Head < Nail !

[peasea]

Couldn't agree more !!

Head < Nail !

Thank you so much.......

[peasea]

What the fuck is this ongoing obsession some people have with the way other people ride??

Followed inevitably by patronising, "we know best" suggestions carefully couched as "helpful ideas" and garnished with platitudes about rider safety and educating the born agains blah blah fucking blah.

The level of sanctimony being thrown about on this site sometimes is ungoddamnedbelievable.

Get the FUCK OVER yourselves

As a side note one fine day someone is going to address me as a "born again biker", or derivative thereof and the poor bastard will be wondering what inspired the sudden outburst of ultra violence before he gets the next syllable out

What the fuck? Some sensible comments? Here on kb? Nah.

Cheers dude.

(I 'got the fuck' over myself once, it went everywhere....dammit.)

[The Stranger]

To class them into which brands are more dangerous is silly.



Why is it silly? What if one brand, model, type has an inherrent fault that doesn't show up under normal circumstances.
Look at the Ford Explorer fiasco. Ford wasn't reporting it voluntarily, had it not been for statistical analysis how would people have known they fall over so often? and they would never have been recalled, despite many deaths.

[peasea]

Why is it silly? What if one brand, model, type has an inherrent fault that doesn't show up under normal circumstances.
Look at the Ford Explorer fiasco. Ford wasn't reporting it voluntarily, had it not been for statistical analysis how would people have known they fall over so often? and they would never have been recalled, despite many deaths.

Exactly!

Ban sports bikes for a start and watch the stats show a reduction in high-speed deaths/injury accidents.

If you ask me (which sports bike riders won't, coz they all consider themselves to be Rossi-gods) sports bike riders need rooting (in the main) for their 'gung-ho' activities/attitudes.

Just because someone doesn't ride a sports bike doesn't mean they can't ride and ride safely.

[The Stranger]

Just because someone doesn't ride a sports bike doesn't mean they can't ride and ride safely.

No, but let's be honest, most can't.

[peasea]

No, but let's be honest, most can't.

I disagree.

I have friends who have had loads of k's on sports bikes who can ride like mother fuckers. Some with a stash of trophies to prove their track abilities. They GREW UP! They took that shit off the the road when they learned that it was dangerous and garnered those aforementioned trophies in the right place.

Then what for the street? A cruiser, that's what.

Sure, some have the 'more spirited' versions, but as I say, they grew up.

[The Stranger]

When I turn up in leathers, all scraped to hell, and with my crash-bungs scraped to nothing, I often get to be the centre of attention.

What does that tell you?

You do realise that they're laughing at you, not with you.

[The Stranger]

I have friends.

Now I know you are fucken lying.

[peasea]

OK, who's stoned?

[peasea]

Now I know you are fucken lying.

Ha, got you there.

There's Tigger, ET, Bugs, Sylvester and Teddy.
So...

[allycatz]

Meh...get a scooter , then you can all wear high heels and skirts and act like real girls:girlfight:

[Big Dave]

I think Harleys actually are pretty good bikes for returners.

65 horsepower and self regulating cornering speeds. Pretty low COM too. Brembo brakes, showa suspension.

When the time comes that they start pushing a Dyna to its limit - and perhaps exceed it - it's not a light speed either.

They also get back up from HOG if required - they do RRRS eg.

Like all these things - it depends on the individual. A fit 6'3" 50 year old is going to find dealing with a road king a lot more practical that a 65 yo, 5' mound of round who should be on a Sportie.

[peasea]

I think Harleys actually are pretty good bikes for returners.

65 horsepower and self regulating cornering speeds. Pretty low COM too. Brembo brakes, showa suspension.

When the time comes that they start pushing a Dyna to its limit - and perhaps exceed it - it's not a light speed either.

They also get back up from HOG if required - they do RRRS eg.

Like all these things - it depends on the individual. A fit 6'3" 50 year old is going to find dealing with a road king a lot more practical that a 65 yo, 5' mound of round who should be on a Sportie.

Well said.
Horses for courses.
Sports bikes are for wankers, HD's are for bikers.
Nuff said.

[Crisis management]

Ok, I've read the whole thread, who won?

[Katman]

The answers lie in addressing the insidious culture of self destruction* that infests Motorcycling - not in shoe horning motorcyclists onto particular bikes.

*(The culture that produces such gems as "My nana could ride faster than you", "Look at the size of those chicken strips", "I can get my knee down around that corner" etc.)

[vifferman]

What an astonishingly disjointed and dysfunctional thread*. :wacko:
Kinda entertaining in a way - sort of like watching the chimps at the zoo have a noisy wee fight, screaming, throwing poo, trying to establish who's top ape, etc., before settling down and going back to playing with themselves in the corner.


I guess eventually some of the protagonists will go off muttering to themselves and licking their wounds, each will decide he's won, the spectators will say it was entertaining but wonder what the fuck it was all about, and we'll all agree that it doesn't matter what you ride, as long as you ride and don't fuck with anyone else's ride.

Or something. :confused:



* Oh - and how come "disjointed" and "dysfunctional" seem to share similar etymology, yet are spelled differently?

[FJRider]

Ok, I've read the whole thread, who won?

Those that have survived to read this thread ....:calm:

[wbks]

Well said.
Horses for courses.
Sports bikes are for wankers, HD's are for bikers.
Nuff said.By posting what you just did it pretty much proves the exact opposite

[MSTRS]

Can't be arsed reading the whole thing....
I'll just say that for all the chucking-off at this bike type or that, ultimately it is the rider, not the bike, that causes any problems.
I've followed Fatboy riders on roads and at speeds that would have some of you crapping yourselves.
Now, obviously, a GSXR/HD race can really only have one outcome, but my point is that Harleys are not the handling equivalents of wetfish that some of you seem to think they are.

[Insanity_rules]

I like spotting the well off older newbies myself, you can see them a mile off. Usually with a new ninja 250 and wearing impossibly clean big dollar label gear. Good on em for suiting up and going for it but guys please brand new fully faired first bikes are a really bad idea.

[MIXONE]

Can't be arsed reading the whole thing....
I'll just say that for all the chucking-off at this bike type or that, ultimately it is the rider, not the bike, that causes any problems.
I've followed Fatboy riders on roads and at speeds that would have some of you crapping yourselves.
Now, obviously, a GSXR/HD race can really only have one outcome, but my point is that Harleys are not the handling equivalents of wetfish that some of you seem to think they are.

Agreed.I had a hard time keeping up with a mate on his FXD through the Buller Gorge.Mind you he has been riding it for more then 30 years.(The Gorge not the HD).

[Ixion]

The original contention seems perverse.

I can think of nothing more illogical than to demand that a new rider must qualify as a racer on a racetrack before being granted a licence.

That would be to endorse exactly the sort of behaviour that should be actively discouraged.

[James Deuce]

Ridden a few Harleys now. I think maybe you should too mate. I used to flatter myself that ignorant bigotry was a qualification to bag someone else's ride, but I was wrong.

I almost agree with the comment about bikes suitable for NZ roads, but the reality is Kiwis buy Sportsbikes and Cruisers and Trail/Enduro/Dirt/Farm/Adventure bikes.

Stuff like V-Stroms, TDMs, Versys, Triumph Scramblers, Motor Morini Scramblers, Multistrada/Hypermotards, Shiver/Dorsoduro which really suit NZ roads well don't sell because they're ugly/as techy as a hammer/engine too small for most Kiwis to be bothered with.

[McJim]

Notwithstanding, we old-floggs do a good line in desperately attempting to replicate our youthful days. The fact is, we may look 50 or 60 but we still 'think' we're teens, and we hate the fact we are not.

Speak for yourself dude.:girlfight: I may look 50-60 but that's just a side effect of too many Glasgow pub brawls, too many illegal drugs, smoking since I was 8 and drinking since I was 10...I'm still this side of 40....just...:rofl:

And I ride a Ducati coz they go round corners easily. :2thumbsup:

[PirateJafa]

I see just as many shite riders on sportsbikes as I do on cruisers.

The problem is not the bikes - it's the riders.



And I ride a Ducati coz they go round corners easily. :2thumbsup:

You put Ohlins on your trailer or something? :Pokey:

[b1unt3d]

the problem is not the bikes - it's the riders.




ding ding ding

[Big Dave]

Triumph Scrambler and Moto Morini work well for the larger gent Jim.
My Buell does too - and suits the conditions well.

As I've posted often - It's the sportsbikes that don't.
Rolled up in a ball clutching narrow, below the instruments handlebars, with maximum weight on the front wheel, short travel suspension and motors that come alive over 7,000rpm is great for a swept track - and quite poor for dealing with a sudden blind washout or the dozens of other hazzards on the public roads.

[Big Dave]

By posting what you just did it pretty much proves the exact opposite

You missed the irony of it.

[wbks]

You missed the irony of it.I see that now...:pinch: Too distracted looking out the window at my wanky sportsbike lol

[The Stranger]

Ha, got you there.

There's Tigger, ET, Bugs, Sylvester and Teddy.
So...

You forgot your good friends Patrick and Scumdog.

[slowpoke]

For a bloke with a dedicated track bike I never thought I'd say this, but I reckon there is plenty of fun to be had on a cruiser. Having just bought a late model sportsbike I can honestly say it's an absolute waste of time on the road. It's capabilities render it boring at anything less than full attack mode, which I'm old enough to realise is not a recipe for long term survival. You become blase about supersonic speeds and there is no way other road users can anticipate or recognise that you are doing those sorts of speeds. You may feel like the biggest baddest predator in the jungle on one of these things but unless you take it to the track you are kidding yourself.

Somewhere between 2000 (my old r1) and 2007 ("new" K7 GSXR) sportsbikes went from being old camaro type fast to being BMW M3 type fast. They are better in every measurable way yet somehow they are less enjoyable to ride at close to normal speeds as a result.

Everybody has there own definition for "acceptable performance" but I reckon getting a few mates together on M109's or V-rods etc would be an absolute hoot, and you wouldn't have to be doing 200+ to get your rocks off.

Back to the original foolish statements, when was the last time you went to a M/C wreckers? I was at a big one in Perth a few weeks ago, chasing up some bits for my race bike, and it was noticeable that for a brand close to leading the sales charts there wasn't a wrecked Harley in sight. Same goes for the crashed bike auctions on TM (Star Insurance etc) in NZ.

[MarkH]

No-one has the right to dictate to a returning motorcyclist what type of bike they can spend their money on.

I agree with that sentence.

I would also say:
No one has the right to dictate to a KBer what sort of threads they can start. I have no problem with dpex inquiring about whether the choice of bike might be a factor in accidents. I don't like the idea of censorship or the implication of some of the posts here that the starting post has asked questions that no one should dare to raise.

Rather than dictating what people can ride maybe a day course run by HOG to teach new riders about handling their shiny new chromed Harley would be a good thing to have available? Or maybe there is no need for such a thing? Maybe someone that rode a 250 for a couple of years is perfectly capable of riding any road legal bike 30 years later with no help from anyone?

Is it possible that if the returning riders bought some kind of well handling sports tourers that there would be just as many accidents and that choosing Harleys is not really a factor at all? Feel free to discuss this in a reasonable and rational way.

[Robbo]

[QUOTE=PirateJafa;1129412301]I see just as many shite riders on sportsbikes as I do on cruisers.

The problem is not the bikes - it's the riders.



Best post yet. Well said PJ

[dwnundabkr]

[QUOTE=PirateJafa;1129412301]I see just as many shite riders on sportsbikes as I do on cruisers.

The problem is not the bikes - it's the riders.



Best post yet. Well said PJ

:2thumbsup +1 here

[vifferman]

Rather than dictating what people can ride maybe a day course run by HOG to teach new riders about handling their shiny new chromed Harley would be a good thing to have available?
Ridiculous.

Harley owners (even noobs or "born agains") are staunch, and don't need no bastard telling 'em how to ride. However (but!) the HD catalogue is a useful guide to help them know what is de rigeur as far as appropriate attire is concerned.

[Bronson]

Ridiculous.

Harley owners (even noobs or "born agains") are staunch, and don't need no bastard telling 'em how to ride. However (but!) the HD catalogue is a useful guide to help them know what is de rigeur as far as appropriate attire is concerned.

Exactly, under headings like...."Cool, Hard, Scary or, the most used, Rough-Tough-Son-Of-A-Bitch!"

[Big Dave]

I like the heading FXD Thinsulate boots. Bought a pair of them. One particularly nice knox armoured jacket I like too.

I have a nice photo set of Auckland HOGS doing Ride Right training and I believe the Police instructors have attended too.

[MadDuck]

However (but!) the HD catalogue is a useful guide to help them know what is de rigeur as far as appropriate attire is concerned.

Yes it is very specific about the attire one should wear. I am waiting for my HD specified tassles, belt buckle and boots to arrive....any day soon

[Gareth51]

Being a born again after 40yrs of not riding I chose a bike similar to what I rode in the sixties,..good call.:2thumbsup 20km later I buy a bike I would have loved to have ridden in the sixties,...bad call :(

[Katman]

I think a far more pertinent topic for discussion would be........

Of all the fatal motorcycle accidents that the blame can be fully, or even partially, attributed to the manner in which the motorcycle was being ridden, how many of those motorcyclists were women?

(Not including pillions)

[FJRider]

(Not including pillions)

Why not ??? pillions die too !!!

They trust the one in front with their lives ...

[Katman]

Why not ??? pillions die too !!!

They trust the one in front with their lives ...

Because it's not usually the pillion that dictates the manner in which the motorcycle is being ridden.

[FJRider]

Because it's not usually the pillion that dictates the manner in which the motorcycle is being ridden.

In most cases ... the pillion is very much aware of the manner in which the rider rides. And enjoys it. If they did not enjoy it, they would not ride with them ... surely ???

[Katman]

In most cases ... the pillion is very much aware of the manner in which the rider rides. And enjoys it. If they did not enjoy it, they would not ride with them ... surely ???

I'll spell it out slowly.

I'm wondering what percentage of fatal motorcycle accidents are attributable to the manner in which a male has been riding compared to the manner in which women generally ride.

[Pussy]

Over the last few weeks, I've ridden with Gassit Girl, GSXR Trace and chic'n'charge... and I've got to say those three are VERY "thinking" riders

[Katman]

I'm almost tempted to suggest..........

Maybe women make better motorcyclists.

[AllanB]

No-one has the right to dictate to a returning motorcyclist what type of bike they can spend their money on.


Maybe, just maybe they should be able to dictate this.

John Oldfart (it's a French name pronounced Ol-f-art) rode a XR185 for 3 years when he was 17-20, THIRTY years later he rocks up to the dealer and buys a new ZX10R, GSXR1000, HD fatboy etc.

Maybe, just maybe he should have to do some type of refresher course requiring X number of hours in a controlled environment before being unleashed on to a public road again. I'd rather see this imposed than have to scrape his/her arse off a fence.

I think the HD argument is not necessarily relevant from a design point of view - a modern HD will out brake and out handle any of the wonder bikes we remember as seriously cool 30 years ago - they really were scary, bendy, crappy tyred, piss-poor braking machines compared to anything modern.

As said earlier if you expect a cruiser to corner like a sport bike then you have missed the entire point.

[AllanB]

I'm almost tempted to suggest..........

Maybe women make better motorcyclists.

Probably are, from what I've seen they use their brains before passing other vehicles on the road and don't let their egos rule their throttle hands.

Plus they can ride just as fast (and faster) than male riders if they desire.


And their bums look better in leather pants :sunny:

[Pussy]

Probably are, from what I've seen they use their brains before passing other vehicles on the road and don't let their egos rule their throttle hands.

Plus they can ride just as fast (and faster) than male riders if they desire.


And their bums look better in leather pants :sunny:

I can't disagree with any of that!
I have seen VERY few girlies ride like idiots

[Katman]

I have seen VERY few girlies ride like idiots

Is there a moron gene that women lack?

[dipshit]

Is there a moron gene that women lack?

They lack the "my dick is bigger than yours" syndrome.

[Pussy]

Is there a moron gene that women lack?

You have a VERY valid point!
All three of my recent girlie riding companions ride extremely smoothly, with awareness and courtesy

[MarkH]

They lack the "my dick is bigger than yours" syndrome.

I think that woman motorcycle riders are often safer riders than most men. The ego problems that many male riders have is definitely a factor. Women are also less likely to willfully risk their lives - men are more likely to do many things that put their lives at risk (motorsports/skydiving/bullfighting/etc).

Women are also more likely to be patient riders and to seek tuition. When I did a RRRS course there were several female learners (I think maybe 4 out of errrr, maybe 12 total?). If 1/3rd of the people on the course were female then that is much higher than the percentage of women riders in general.

Of course there are plenty of women that would not be good riders, but the ones that choose to ride are not usually from the group with a poor aptitude for it.


Is there a moron gene that women lack?

Some male riders are undoubtedly complete fuckin' munters. But many of the deaths each year are from male motorcyclists that get a thrill from taking risks, sometimes the risk taking = life taking. This isn't restricted to motorcycling of course, my mate Mark Porter got his thrills from racing cars on a track - the end result was still the same :(
But many people take risks knowing full well that they could lose their lives and they wouldn't be happy to be told they were not allowed to. A life without risk would be very boring!

I have also ridden with GSXR Trace and a few other female riders - they all rode more sensibly than many guys do.

[cowpatz]

So as a forty something, returning back to bikes after a 30 year absence, can someone tell me what a GOOD rider is?

A. Is it someone who rides sensibly at all times and obeys all the road rules, speed limits etc religiously?

B. Is it someone who rides competently from a technical perspective and from this is able to choose the right line, tip in point and exit position and therefore take on corners faster and perhaps break the speed limit occasionally?

Or is it somewhere in between?

In general terms would woman be more likely to be associated with option A and men with option B?

What is ridden is absolutely immaterial. It is how the machine is ridden given its capabilities and limitations that is surely the issue.

[Pussy]

Or is it somewhere in between?

In general terms would woman be more likely to be associated with option A and men with option B?



Yep, in between.
The three girlies I have mentioned ride technically AND with courtesy to other road users

[Katman]

So as a forty something, returning back to bikes after a 30 year absence, can someone tell me what a GOOD rider is?



My definition of a 'good rider' is one who desires to ride again tomorrow so therefore, rides accordingly today.

[PirateJafa]

You have a VERY valid point!
All three of my recent girlie riding companions ride extremely smoothly, with awareness and courtesy


I think that woman motorcycle riders are often safer riders than most men

...

rode more sensibly than many guys do.

I disagree.

I believe it's simply that as the ratio of female riders to male riders is so one-sided, you simply think that as "unsafe" male riders are seen around a lot more often. When I think of all the female riders I've met and/or ridden with, I do believe that the proportion that ride hard to get their "thrills" or street rep or whatever is the same as with guys - however they don't get seen around as much.

They also crow less about it on KB.

So I would agree with the statement that there are "less unsafe lady riders", but only insofar as that there are less female riders on the roads overall.

[Katman]

So I would agree with the statement that there are "less unsafe lady riders", but only insofar as that there are less female riders on the roads overall.

So what's the fatality stats of male motorcyclist versus female motorcyclist?

[Robbo]

My definition of a 'good rider' is one who desires to ride again tomorrow so therefore, rides accordingly today.

That post sums it up brilliantly and is so true. :niceone:

[PirateJafa]

So what's the fatality stats of male motorcyclist versus female motorcyclist?
Why should I care?

I stated my personal opinion.

I just enjoy myself, keep myself out of harm's way, and leave it at that. I've got things of my own that need doing. The subject at hand is not a personal "crusade" of mine, so I don't feel the need to become an expert on the statistics relating to it.

[Katman]

The reality is that, while I know that there are many women motorcyclists out there I haven't heard of one single fatal motorcycle accident (attributable to the motorcyclist) involving a female rider.

What could possibly be the explanation for that?

[PirateJafa]

Space gophers.

[Katman]

Space gophers.

Methinks the reason you're unwilling to consider a viable answer stems from the fact that you realise you're actually inferior to the average woman.

Am I right?

:sherlock:

[PirateJafa]

Methinks the reason you're unwilling to consider a viable answer stems from the fact that you realise you're actually inferior to the average woman.

Am I right?

:sherlock:

Of course.

I wish I had tits.

It'd be so easy to get off tickets then.

[Katman]

I wish I had tits.



When you stayed here you looked like you already did have.

[PirateJafa]

When you stayed here you looked like you already did have.
Dinner and a movie first, pal.

[Katman]

Dinner and a movie first, pal.

And half a dozen of my beers?

[PirateJafa]

And half a dozen of my beers?
We were forced to save you from those calories.

God forbid what havoc those might have otherwise wrecked.

[FJRider]

I'll spell it out slowly.

I'm wondering what percentage of fatal motorcycle accidents are attributable to the manner in which a male has been riding compared to the manner in which women generally ride.

Adult learning classes will help you spell faster ... :innocent:

I cannot recall hearing a report of a female motorcycle rider being killed :no: ... full stop. :sunny:

Pillions yes.

[dipshit]

So what's the fatality stats of male motorcyclist versus female motorcyclist?

http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf

[Katman]

I cannot recall hearing a report of a female motorcycle rider being killed :no: ... full stop. :sunny:



And what does that tell you?

[The Stranger]

So what's the fatality stats of male motorcyclist versus female motorcyclist?

I doubt stats are kept specifically for this, however III seems to be onto something (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=102884&highlight=women+statistics).

[FJRider]

And what does that tell you?

I should pay more attention to the news ????? :blink:

[Katman]

I doubt stats are kept specifically for this, however III seems to be onto something (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=102884&highlight=women+statistics).

I'm talking specifically fatal accidents.

[lankyman]

Fuck you talk some shit.

I'll second that. I want the last 5 min of my life back

[The Stranger]

I'm talking specifically fatal accidents.

I do realise that, hence my comment.
"I doubt stats are kept specifically for this"
Or do you have some stats to back your position? Because I would be damn interested to see them.

[FJRider]

http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf

They dont seem to have distinguished between rider and pillion. Pillions are motorcyclists...

[rosie631]

I think a far more pertinent topic for discussion would be........

Of all the fatal motorcycle accidents that the blame can be fully, or even partially, attributed to the manner in which the motorcycle was being ridden, how many of those motorcyclists were women?

(Not including pillions)

What are you trying to say???

[Katman]

Or do you have some stats to back your position? Because I would be damn interested to see them.

None whatsoever.

I think the fact that no-one yet has managed to mention any female rider killed due to her manner of riding is very telling.

[James Deuce]

You're missing the obvious lads. The stats look like that because bugger all women ride or pillion, despite what sometimes seems like visibly more women being involved. The ratio, in my experience is about the same as it was 20 years ago. 1 woman riding or pillioning per 10 blokes.

Having said that, I reckon you'd find that a lot more female pillions with male riders die than female riders. Or female pillions with female riders.

[dipshit]

They dont seem to have distinguished between rider and pillion. Pillions are motorcyclists...

Yes. I do recall reading some publication saying female riders were less represented in serious and fatal accidents for there percentage. I will see if i can find it.

[Katman]

You're missing the obvious lads. The stats look like that because bugger all women ride or pillion, despite what sometimes seems like visibly more women being involved. The ratio, in my experience is about the same as it was 20 years ago. 1 woman riding or pillioning per 10 blokes.

Having said that, I reckon you'd find that a lot more female pillions with male riders die than female riders. Or female pillions with female riders.

So what's the ratio of male to female motorcyclists?

(Riders that is, not pillions).

[James Deuce]

I am guessing, simply going on the typical composition of the helmeted crowd at petrol stations, cafes, and crowded around an ambulance.

License stats don't help, because there's no way to convert an aquired Class 6 into an active rider statistic with any certainty.

So it comes down to heuristic, experiential opinion.

[Katman]

We must be somewhere in the 60's regarding the number of motorcyclists killed already this year.

Is not one of the riders a woman?

[cowpatz]

My definition of a 'good rider' is one who desires to ride again tomorrow so therefore, rides accordingly today.

Makes a nice quote, and I agree with the sentiment, but a little light on specifics...clarify what makes it so.

[FJRider]

What are you trying to say???

I'm not sure if he knows himself .... he's still asking questions ...<_<

[James Deuce]

We must be somewhere in the 60's regarding the number of motorcyclists killed already this year.

Is not one of the riders a woman?

Dunno. There's no published "official" stats anywhere.

Bet you more pedestrians have died than motorcyclists though.

Pedestrian training is rubbish in NZ.

[cowpatz]

Well the ratio of female riders to male is probably similar to cars. As the young males are over represented in those stats then I guess they are on bikes as well. Generally most older riders no longer have anything to prove, are probably more aware of their limitations and mortality and just enjoy getting out on a bike.


Fuckin' hell, do you want a quote or a fuckin' book?

What's Karma Sutra got to do with it?

[FJRider]

My definition of a 'good rider' is one who desires to ride again tomorrow so therefore, rides accordingly today.

If you ride like there's no tomorrow ... there may not be one ...

[James Deuce]

Well the ratio of female riders to male is probably similar to cars.

Not in a million years.

The licence held stats from 2004 (the most recent documented) show a very different picture for motorcycles vs cars in regard to female licence holders.

The car licence figures are roughly the same. Bike licenses vary from 3 to 1 male vs female to 20 to 1 depending on age group. Licence held doesn't indicate an active rider either.

http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/licenceAndVehicleFleet.pdf

[2wheeldrifter]

The valmorification was a complete success!

[cc rider]

Is there a moron gene that women lack?Yes....once they start riding their own bikes <_<




The valmorification was a complete success!....too much manga tonight, drifter ;)

[cowpatz]

Licence held doesn't indicate an active rider either.

http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/licenceAndVehicleFleet.pdf

That is correct. I was more referring to active riders than a licence held. One only has to observe passing riders to see that there is a big disparity in the numbers between males and females.