Wet tar, shiny tar, sticky tar

[beyond]

I've had a few motorcyclists (new and experienced) ask me how you know when it's safe to corner on tar that is shiny when dry. Also have been asked about summer tar that has gone soft and the shiny tar that is wet from rain.

In all cases, shiny tar (wet, dry, tacky) is best avoided all together but there will be times when you have no choice but to deal with it such as on corners, intersections and roundabouts. Often, cars trucks and heat have brought it to the surface right in your best apex lines which means a rethink on your lines through a corner.

On many of our roads, the ideal line through the corner is not always the safest one and you must adapt in order to survive.

The following advice should help you deal with most issues regarding tar; bearing in mind we assume your bike is up to scratch, has good rubber, the right tyre pressures and is set up properly and you are experienced enough to know good lines through a corner.

1. WET TAR: At all costs, avoid wet tar. It's as bad as diesel on a wet road and will cause you to wash out in a corner like hitting ice. If for any reason you find yourself heading for a patch of wet tar, try to steer through that area where there is more chip than anywhere else and maybe you will have to stand the bike up momentarily, repick your line and drop into the corner again.
Often between the wheel tracks there is an area of more solid seal... you need to stay on that.
Slow down where there seems to be a lot of tar bleed with that give away shiny surface but if caught out hang off the inside of the bike to get your weight over and help keep the bike more "stood" up as you enter the corner.
Do not brake on shiny wet tar except in an emergency but be prepared to go down if you keep your brakes on too long.

2. DRY SHINY TAR: This is the best stuff to deal with from a safety viewpoint. There is a lot more grip when it's like this than the other forms it's found in but you still need to take care, a lot more care than a normal road surface.
Dust on dry shiny tar will have you sliding and excessive speed will also have you off. Dry shiny tar is a little more forgiving in that often you can feel your front or rear tyre starting to break away. Do not panic if in this situation, ease off the throttle slightly, stay smooth and ride it out using similar techniques to point 1.

3. MELTED TAR: As for wet tar.... stay well away from it and the added pain with melted tar is the cleanup job on your bike and gear later.
Obviously melted tar occurs mostly in summer. You can't tell if it's melted by just looking at it as it appears to be like point 2...... dry and shiny.
BUT, if you can smell tar, it's been hot or is hot, the suns still up and it's not early morning or late evening, there is a high chance that the tar patches will be soft.
Some area are more prone to melted tar, geographically as well as locally such as gorges, north facing sheltered bends and areas that get a lot of sun and heat.


Points to note:
In summer, you can still get dew which settles on these tar patches and the road itself may be dry but these patches are lethal.

At times, the suns heat can cause the surface of the road to look okay with lots of chip but the tar goes off underneath and when cornering hard in these areas, you can peel the top layer with the obvious result..... like being on melted tar again. If the day is very hot and surfaces have been exposed to lots of heat, be careful of this.

Hope this helps... feel free to add other points to this thread as I've only touched some of the main pointers.

Cheers: Ride safe.

[YellowDog]

Good advice. You can't avoid it all of the time, but so long as you are not using the shiney tar lines as a line guide, the slip is momentary and you can just carrry on without worrying.

[SixPackBack]

Talking shit again you dangerous bastard.............:whistle:

Right we got the standard minority response outa the way LOL!

My 2 cents for what it is worth: Mid winter cold wet days on cold tires can be incredibly dangerous. A section of East Coast bays road that I frequently ride will have a bike travelling sideways with virtually no lean whatsoever......Never underestimate wet cold tar!

[The Pastor]

I've had a few motorcyclists (new and experienced) ask me how you know when it's safe to corner on tar that is shiny when dry. Also have been asked about summer tar that has gone soft and the shiny tar that is wet from rain.

In all cases, shiny tar (wet, dry, tacky) is best avoided all together but there will be times when you have no choice but to deal with it such as on corners, intersections and roundabouts. Often, cars trucks and heat have brought it to the surface right in your best apex lines which means a rethink on your lines through a corner.

On many of our roads, the ideal line through the corner is not always the safest one and you must adapt in order to survive.

The following advice should help you deal with most issues regarding tar; bearing in mind we assume your bike is up to scratch, has good rubber, the right tyre pressures and is set up properly and you are experienced enough to know good lines through a corner.

1. WET TAR: At all costs, avoid wet tar. It's as bad as diesel on a wet road and will cause you to wash out in a corner like hitting ice. If for any reason you find yourself heading for a patch of wet tar, try to steer through that area where there is more chip than anywhere else and maybe you will have to stand the bike up momentarily, repick your line and drop into the corner again.
Often between the wheel tracks there is an area of more solid seal... you need to stay on that.
Slow down where there seems to be a lot of tar bleed with that give away shiny surface but if caught out hang off the inside of the bike to get your weight over and help keep the bike more "stood" up as you enter the corner.
Do not brake on shiny wet tar except in an emergency but be prepared to go down if you keep your brakes on too long.

2. DRY SHINY TAR: This is the best stuff to deal with from a safety viewpoint. There is a lot more grip when it's like this than the other forms it's found in but you still need to take care, a lot more care than a normal road surface.
Dust on dry shiny tar will have you sliding and excessive speed will also have you off. Dry shiny tar is a little more forgiving in that often you can feel your front or rear tyre starting to break away. Do not panic if in this situation, ease off the throttle slightly, stay smooth and ride it out using similar techniques to point 1.

3. MELTED TAR: As for wet tar.... stay well away from it and the added pain with melted tar is the cleanup job on your bike and gear later.
Obviously melted tar occurs mostly in summer. You can't tell if it's melted by just looking at it as it appears to be like point 2...... dry and shiny.
BUT, if you can smell tar, it's been hot or is hot, the suns still up and it's not early morning or late evening, there is a high chance that the tar patches will be soft.
Some area are more prone to melted tar, geographically as well as locally such as gorges, north facing sheltered bends and areas that get a lot of sun and heat.


Points to note:
In summer, you can still get dew which settles on these tar patches and the road itself may be dry but these patches are lethal.

At times, the suns heat can cause the surface of the road to look okay with lots of chip but the tar goes off underneath and when cornering hard in these areas, you can peel the top layer with the obvious result..... like being on melted tar again. If the day is very hot and surfaces have been exposed to lots of heat, be careful of this.

Hope this helps... feel free to add other points to this thread as I've only touched some of the main pointers.

Cheers: Ride safe.
I can sum up your post in 3 words "tar is bad"

[Bonez]

I can sum up your post in 3 words "tar is bad"Can be quite fun on occasion. Like pea metal, moss and stock efluent. Beyonds post should be made a sticky in the survival section. Good post.

[BigOne]

This is a good post Beyond, shiny tar is one of the most significant hazards out there.
I wrecked my last bike due to melted tar. In fact, I hi-sided on a clean clear surface, but when I looked at my tyres on the trailer, they were coated with tar from rolling thru hot melted patches further back down the hill.
It's lethal, and I was lucky to walk away from it. I had one of those 'sky-ground-sky-ground-sky' kaleidoscope movies play in my visor and that was the last time I rode that bike.
Pay attention to what Beyond has to say.

[PirateJafa]

Tar is nowhere near as dangerous as spilt diesel.

The most important thing to do when you come around corner and find an unexpected patch of tar is NOT TO PANIC. I've watched a rider go off a corner solely because they panicked when they saw a melted tar patch and hit the brakes.

Essentially it comes down to don't ride like a dick. Don't race-apex corners, ride to your and the road's limits, make sure you can stop within the visible distance and you'll be right.

[Katman]

Essentially it comes down to don't ride like a dick. Don't race-apex corners, ride within your and the road's limits, make sure you can stop within the visible distance and you'll be right.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

(Except for the one edit that I've taken the liberty of making).

[Kiwi Graham]

Bloody ek Paul, Have you taken some advise tablets or something?
All bloody good advise mate.

Stay away from the stuff if you can but stay relaxed if you have to cross it, maintain a slightly positive throttle, use body weight rather than lean angle and pick the centre line (read dull in colour) through the corner.
You can smell hot, meting tar so use youre nose too.

[CookMySock]

Thank you mate. I had been wondering about all of that.

My 15 y/o kid had a big long slide on wet tar on his brand new GT250R. We were doing about 80k/hr in teeming rain on a wide and open sweeper - not remotely going quick - in fact being very very careful indeed in the dangerous conditions. He was in the left-half lane. Slippery as diesel is right. In hindsight we shouldn't have been on the road with that much water around - not on shinko's anyway.

Steve

[YellowDog]

I can sum up your post in 3 words "tar is bad"
Yup, don't smoke.

It's not worth it.

[caseye]

Old heavy bikds don't like wet/hot tar either, they gain a mind of their own when introduced to it.
Butt as above no panicking and riding through it will keep you alive and having to do a clean up job on the front forks rims etc.
Nice post Beyond.

[nsrpaul]

its also a complete barstad to clean off your bike!

[MSTRS]

Something I've noted...
Like riding on gravel, melted tar is not tooo much of a problem with narrowish tyres. But nothing likes the smooth, damp variety. There bee dragons!!

[MarkH]

In hindsight we shouldn't have been on the road with that much water around - not on shinko's anyway.

In hindsight surely the shinko tyres are WAY too expensive to use?
What does it cost to ride on shinko tyres and lowside a bike vs riding on quality tyres?

I don't think that the tyres are the best place to save money on a bike TBH.
Buy good rubber and consider it an investment in safety, but still ride with due care.

[crash harry]

In hindsight surely the shinko tyres are WAY too expensive to use?
What does it cost to ride on shinko tyres and lowside a bike vs riding on quality tyres?

I don't think that the tyres are the best place to save money on a bike TBH.
Buy good rubber and consider it an investment in safety, but still ride with due care.

I think they're standard fitment on Hyosungs? Which would explain why a new Hyosung has them on (DB could confirm that...)

And on the topic, nice post Beyond. I would add that everything you said counts for tar snakes as well, except that they can usually be avoided more easily. Bloody slippery in the rain though!

[CookMySock]

In hindsight surely the shinko tyres are WAY too expensive to use? What does it cost to ride on shinko tyres and lowside a bike vs riding on quality tyres? I don't think that the tyres are the best place to save money on a bike TBH. Buy good rubber and consider it an investment in safety, but still ride with due care.Yes I agree completely - false economy. The biggest problem with shit tyres, is they last for ages. Shinkos are as hard as glass and last a long time - ok for general dry road work, and commuting on good roads, but particularly dangerous for touring in the wet.


I think they're standard fitment on Hyosungs? Which would explain why a new Hyosung has them on (DB could confirm that...)They are standard fitment on the 250's. The 650's Has Bridgestone Battleaxes on them IIRC, which are lots better, but nothing near the Michelin PR2's on my 650 - the factory tyres are laughable in comparison.

Steve

[trailblazer]

Don't no if it was just my tyres or what but yesterday when i was coming home from work in the rain i was half way through a corner when the road was covered in cow shit and i couldn't avoid it so i had to stand the bike up a bit but fuck it was slippery as fuck i nearly lost the front end. :mad::mad:

[eldog]

Had some experience here, the corner was slight 15 degree up hill. The low light level meant I could see most of the Left Hand corner.
Initially could see very good seal all across the corner about 85% around. Travelling slowly entered corner slowly because day had been dry and only recently it had rained, Clear cool night. Took the corner wide as we have been taught to do so, to increase visibility. Saw at the beginning of the corner that the surface changed midway to complete tar bleed.
Was travelling at about 70, I leant over and stood the bike up before the change in traction. When the bike hit the tar bleed the rear immediately slid approx 0.5m+. I kept the throttle steady, but instinctlively pulled on the handbars to 'correct' the slide (OK maybe I was wrong here but thats why I am posting to get your thoughts). This induced a very viloent tank slapper because of the front/rear misalignment. Kept throttle level as best I could and kept arms stiff, mid way though the tank slapper, I let my arms go slack, the tank slapper declined slightly, and I thought I was regaining control. Then I was high sided as the rear regained traction on the good seal immediately after the tar bleed (approx 6m long area)

Tyres Michelin PR3's warmed up so much grip :) so grip wasnt an issue in normal conditions

The road had been repaired to halfway around the corner and the remaining tar bleed left. This is a dangerous situation when half a corner is repaired.

I was lucky, the bike was rideable and I rode it home, with injuries. ATGATT

There is so much tar bleed in the South Auckland area esp Rural Areas, there seems to be acceptance that this is the way roads are made.

Surely 'slippery when wet' road signs are inadequate (there wasnt any on my corner)

I was wondering when the Insurance/ACC would front up and ask questions as to why there isnt more done to remove this hazard from our roads.

Seems like there are lots of damage/injures to people and no-one says anything.

On my corner there is typically 4 accidents per year (all vehicles)

I reported it to Auckland Transport and still nothing has been done typical

Yes I want more riders to be aware of Hot/Cold Tar Bleed

[haydes55]

.
Was travelling at about 70, I leant over and stood the bike up before the change in traction. When the bike hit the tar bleed the rear immediately slid approx 0.5m+. I kept the throttle steady, but instinctlively pulled on the handbars to 'correct' the slide (OK maybe I was wrong here but thats why I am posting to get your thoughts). This induced a very viloent tank slapper because of the front/rear misalignment. Kept throttle level as best I could and kept arms stiff, mid way though the tank slapper, I let my arms go slack, the tank slapper declined slightly, and I thought I was regaining control. Then I was high sided as the rear regained traction on the good seal immediately after the tar bleed (approx 6m long area)






In a slide you should steer the front wheel to be in the direction you are going.

You did right, keeping throttle steady, shutting off would have made you high side earlier. You can roll off the throttle if you are standing the bike and aren't too far sideways. Use rear brake to control the wheel spin. Front brake will make your problems worse.

I find hanging off the inside of the bike helps, when the rear wheel regains grip, you can sometimes turn it into a turn (if you have the room).

[eldog]

In a slide you should steer the front wheel to be in the direction you are going.

You did right, keeping throttle steady, shutting off would have made you high side earlier. You can roll off the throttle if you are standing the bike and aren't too far sideways. Use rear brake to control the wheel spin. Front brake will make your problems worse.

I find hanging off the inside of the bike helps, when the rear wheel regains grip, you can sometimes turn it into a turn (if you have the room).

I tried to steer the front, but my input was perhaps a bit to quick and large (I was nervious)
It felt like a long way out and most likely was.
I have been out to the site and walked on it when wet (same conditions) it was SO SLIPPERY I SLID just in my shoes. It was a wake up call.

I suggest everyone goes and trys to walk on Hot/Cold-Wet Tar Bleed, its like ICE
Didnt use front brake thought that would have stuffed up getting the front (tankslapper) under control as it would have bounced the suspension?
I was slightly hanging off the inside.
Just as I thought the tankslapper was reducing, I was highsided. Theres no warning for that. I suppose the grippy PR3s caught me out.
Plenty of room, Only missed being runover by oncoming traffic (they couldnt see me) by about 1metre and 2 seconds as I got out of the way. I would have been toast.
They stopped as the saw the High Vis just as they were passing. They stopped and helped me - Nice

I suppose they were grateful they hadnt hit me, it wouldnt have been their fault.

[Akzle]

wrong. wrong. wrong. When the rear lights up, grab a handful of throttle, countersteer like a motherfucker and hang your leg out like you meant to do it.


What i really love is where some council moron has filled divots around a chipseal corner... With a bag of cold mix. :facepalm:

[eldog]

wrong. wrong. wrong. When the rear lights up, grab a handful of throttle, countersteer like a motherfucker and hang your leg out like you meant to do it.


What i really love is where some council moron has filled divots around a chipseal corner... With a bag of cold mix. :facepalm:

The rear didnt light up, it just slid, it was in one place then completely in another instantly. The revs didn't change.

I am now sure it was my steering input which caused the tankslapper. I did what someone in a car would do.

I should have kept the front wheel inline with the rear. :argh:

I don't have the experience, that I really needed in this situation. I have been asking for help/direction on what I need to do. Usually all I get is more k's.

Akzle I am sure you will have suggestions. I am a very inexperienced learner. Only limited road riding.


Councils = Cost cutting as I found out only resealed 1/2 corner another 6m would sort out the accidents there - 4 per year. Yes a death would see it fixed but not for those involved.

Most problems with seal re caused by incorrect base course, material used, and the addition of Kero lowers the melting point of bitumen and makes it cheaper

[Akzle]

The rear didnt light up, it just slid, it was in one place then completely in another instantly. The revs didn't change.

I am now sure it was my steering input which caused the tankslapper. I did what someone in a car would do.

I don't have the experience, that I really needed in this situation. I have been asking for help/direction on what I need to do. Usually all I get is more k's.

I am a very inexperienced learner. Only limited road riding.

as long as youre running through what ACTUALLY happened, in your head, youll learn from it. If youre making it up, then its wasted experience.

The revs dont have to change much to skid, just the relationship vs traction, best affected by momentum.

Get some kms on gravel.

I should have kept the front wheel inline with the rear. :argh:

not necessarily. In fact, if youre typing that as im reading it, completely wrong.

Front wheel WHERE YOU WANT TO GO WHICH IS ALSO WHERE YOURE LOOKING. There are very, very few exceptions to this.

Dont hold the bars too much, either. Cruising, you should be able to steer with your pinky fingers.
Some cunt will be along shortly to tell you to get some training.

[Akzle]

also, nothing happens 'instantly'
you need to increase ('speed up') your thinking, to gain a better perspective of the speed of life.

[eldog]

as long as youre running through what ACTUALLY happened, in your head, youll learn from it. If youre making it up, then its wasted experience.

The revs dont have to change much to skid, just the relationship vs traction, best affected by momentum.

Get some kms on gravel.

not necessarily. In fact, if youre typing that as im reading it, completely wrong.

Front wheel WHERE YOU WANT TO GO WHICH IS ALSO WHERE YOURE LOOKING. There are very, very few exceptions to this.

Dont hold the bars too much, either. Cruising, you should be able to steer with your pinky fingers.
Some cunt will be along shortly to tell you to get some training.

I have learnt from it - not making anything up
Agreed about momentum totally, total loss of traction, I tried it when wet just standing on the same spot = ICE
Gravel k's and sand to start Best suggestion I have had yet

Was trying to be loose on bars, getting better at it more k's are helping

Front wheel I reacted like you would in a car to correct slide (not skid)
I was looking where I wanted to go. I just overreacted

[eldog]

also, nothing happens 'instantly'
you need to increase ('speed up') your thinking, to gain a better perspective of the speed of life.

instantly is relative, the whole accident was maybe 10 seconds
In my mind was about a minute

and yes I expect to be wound up on KB and yes have done several lots of 'training'

didn't cover anything like this such is life

[george formby]

Get some kms on gravel.




This.
Playing in the dirt gets you used to the bike sliding around underneath you. After a bit of practice you react instantly & smoothly to keep the plot together with your body weight & throttle control. You also learn to keep your head up & focus on the exit rather than down where your gonna hit. A bike is going to do what it wants regardless, you can't stop the inertia of it's weight but you can be ready to gather it together when it starts behaving again.
It won't save you 100% of the time but makes a huge difference for those step out moments on diesel, gravel, shiny tar etc.
Awesome fun, too.

[Banditbandit]

I am now sure it was my steering input which caused the tankslapper. I did what someone in a car would do.




Maybe .. the biggest issue is that when the sliding wheel got off the seal bleed it gripped again. The momentum of you and the bike flipped the bike upright and threw you off. Physics will always catch you out.

Akzle's suggestion of counter-steering like mad and leaning into the corner may have helped that .. but you'd need to be pretty quick and onto it to do that .. hell even the MotoGP riders get caught by that - exactly as it happened to you .. don't beat yourself up ..

[eldog]

This.
Playing in the dirt gets you used to the bike sliding around underneath you. After a bit of practice you react instantly & smoothly to keep the plot together with your body weight & throttle control. You also learn to keep your head up & focus on the exit rather than down where your gonna hit. A bike is going to do what it wants regardless, you can't stop the inertia of it's weight but you can be ready to gather it together when it starts behaving again.
It won't save you 100% of the time but makes a huge difference for those step out moments on diesel, gravel, shiny tar etc.
Awesome fun, too.

Yes, I don't have any dirt experience. None.

I kept my head up, that saved me.

Going to get some dirt experience sounds like the plan thanks. :done:

[mossy1200]

Only 3 things will stop a highside when the back steps out a long way.

1 A wet road
2 Enough hp to keep the loss of traction going and it has already been applied
3 Luck

For most riders number 2 applies if you have reacted naturally to the situation by instinct which is where dirty riders have an advantage.
Even a dodgy old dirty on near bald tires on wet grass will give you training and some fun while doing it.

[eldog]

Only 3 things will stop a highside when the back steps out a long way.

1 A wet road
2 Enough hp to keep the loss of traction going and it has already been applied
3 Luck

For most riders number 2 applies if you have reacted naturally to the situation by instinct which is where dirty riders have an advantage.
Even a dodgy old dirty on near bald tires on wet grass will give you training and some fun while doing it.

1: yes road wet after dry spell
1a: rough exposed stone chip start till 1/2-3/4 way through corner, I was laid nice, just didn't do the whole corner
2: 100 horses enough? Bike way bigger than Scorpio , kept throttle as steady as I could about 20-30 oscillations of handle bar and it was reducing frequency
2a: Was being very careful bike upright all corners, smooth throttle just taking my time nothing over 70 the whole trip
2b: if I was doing 100+ would have ended up in other lane - DEAD a car came over the brow of a small rise just after the crash
3: Picked up the bike and rode it home = Luck I reckon see 2b also

bugger going to have to become a dirty rider :yes:

[george formby]

1: yes road wet after dry spell
1a: rough exposed stone chip start till 1/2-3/4 way through corner, I was laid nice, just didn't do the whole corner
2: 100 horses enough? Bike way bigger than Scorpio , kept throttle as steady as I could about 20-30 oscillations of handle bar and it was reducing frequency
2a: Was being very careful bike upright all corners, smooth throttle just taking my time nothing over 70 the whole trip
2b: if I was doing 100+ would have ended up in other lane - DEAD a car came over the brow of a small rise just after the crash
3: Picked up the bike and rode it home = Luck I reckon see 2b also

bugger going to have to become a dirty rider :yes:

Absolutely nothing wrong with the dirt route. Great fun & a whole new raft of skills to be learned.
I guess a TV set analogy would be if you have only ever ridden tar seal roads then your a black & white CRT, if you also ride gravel your full colour, if you ride slick trails & dirt, too, your getting on for being an HD plasma when it comes to ability.
If you stick in a few track training sessions, some Enduro & a bit of Motard your heading towards a 100 inch, curved screen LED/LCD 3D experience.
I could have just said the more varied your riding the better your ability.

Forgot to mention in my previous post but staying completely relaxed & tuned in is worth it's weight in gold when a moment occurs. Nothing worse than tensing up & wrestling the bike.

Oh, some KBer's may misconstrue bugger & dirt rider used in the same sentence. You might get some PM's.

[eldog]

Absolutely nothing wrong with the dirt route. Great fun & a whole new raft of skills to be learned.
I guess a TV set analogy would be if you have only ever ridden tar seal roads then your a black & white CRT, if you also ride gravel your full colour, if you ride slick trails & dirt, too, your getting on for being an HD plasma when it comes to ability.
If you stick in a few track training sessions, some Enduro & a bit of Motard your heading towards a 100 inch, curved screen LED/LCD 3D experience.
I could have just said the more varied your riding the better your ability.

Forgot to mention in my previous post but staying completely relaxed & tuned in is worth it's weight in gold when a moment occurs. Nothing worse than tensing up & wrestling the bike.

Oh, some KBer's may misconstrue bugger & dirt rider used in the same sentence. You might get some PM's.

Understand, I did have offers to be trained in dirt riding (I am sure I will get some PMs now) but I was too worried about damaging someones bike who I didnt know and the training was going to be free.

I would rather pay and damage bike or fix it for them

Yes I wish other people had made it as plain to me as you have. - slow learner

I am doing more riding in all conditions and trying to relax and tuned in (I did feel the bike go) I was perhaps too tuned in as i reacted so fast.
Yep I did twist the handle bars in an opposite lock like a car driver would have instinctively, rather than just let it go.

I am glad I have gotten some responses thanks. :niceone:

[Madness]

The back stepped out. It happens, even on a Scorpio. My $0.10 is that you could perhaps benefit from a less structured/analytical approach to motorcycling and try to just let it happen, ride to enjoy the experience.

It just seems to me that there is a faction of KB members that are hell bent on becoming the best motorcycle riding experts they can be by using all the training, reading, coaching and post analysis that they can get their boring little hands on but they're still binning more than most n00bs.

I've not ridden with you but I'm pretty sure I've been behind you in my work ute driving through Papakura. You struck me as being a tad nervous. Chill out!

[george formby]

You won't do much damage riding around a wet paddock somewhere, bend a lever perhaps & double the weight of the bike with mud.
If you get the opportunity, take it. I guarantee you will wet yourself laughing.

Don't get suckered into going for a ride with a few folks who give you a she'll be right attitude then take you into demoralising terrain. You may feel awful for holding up the the ride and end up hating the person who put you in that situation. As well as being physically & mentally wrecked.
Jump on an old shitter & spend an afternoon in a slippy paddock to start with.
Ahhhh, the joys of bare bones biking.:lol:

And yeah, what he said above. The texture of the grit & moistness of the road is irrelevant & beyond your control. It's the riding that counts.

[mossy1200]

You won't do much damage riding around a wet paddock somewhere, bend a lever perhaps & double the weight of the bike with mud.

Jump on an old shitter & spend an afternoon in a slippy paddock to start with.
Ahhhh, the joys of bare bones biking.:lol:



xl185s superfarmer with road legal nobs was my first bike.
No ability to jump but ride and slide and hill climb was its strong points.
You don't need move fast to get a loss of traction happening.

[Madness]

xl185s superfarmer with road legal nobs was my first bike.

Mine was an ex-Postie CT90 with bald knobblies & a rusted out exhaust. The training ground was a clay fire-break in the hills behind Naenae where with just a smidge of moisture you learned all about sliding.

[mossy1200]

Mine was an ex-Postie CT90 with bald knobblies & a rusted out exhaust. The training ground was a clay fire-break in the hills behind Naenae where with just a smidge of moisture you learned all about sliding.

Herbert Forest pine needles. Likely same effect.

[eldog]

The back stepped out. It happens, even on a Scorpio. My $0.10 is that you could perhaps benefit from a less structured/analytical approach to motorcycling and try to just let it happen, ride to enjoy the experience.

It just seems to me that there is a faction of KB members that are hell bent on becoming the best motorcycle riding experts they can be by using all the training, reading, coaching and post analysis that they can get their boring little hands on but they're still binning more than most n00bs.

I've not ridden with you but I'm pretty sure I've been behind you in my work ute driving through Papakura. You struck me as being a tad nervous. Chill out!

Not a scorpio. The Scorpio is capable of more skidding/bouncing along the road, not so much sliding.
I have done some training but it never covers the things I have asked.
Yes I am learning to try and enjoy the ride. I tend to overthink thinks but I am learning to relax, it will take time.......

I binned it through lack of experience. Hence I asked the questions and 99% of the answers are great and to the point and is what I need.
OK I could be boring, nervious and lack experience. I havent had the upbringing like most so I am trying to capture those forgotten years as fast as I can.
Most people have had some sort of previous motorbike background or offroad experience and I see that helps a lot.

I am nervious with any vehicles been driven through Papakura (even if i was in a tank), but is not as bad as other places in Auckland.

Previous to me becoming a rider, I never asked questions and got no where. Now I asked questions and get something I can act on. Rather like being a mushroom being in the dark and feed on bullshit.

Next time as you go past give me a wave. So i know that you are looking out for fellow motorcyclists.

[Madness]

Not a scorpio. The Scorpio is capable of more skidding/bouncing along the road, not so much sliding.

Any bike is capable of sliding or having the rear step out. It's about grip, or a lack thereof, rather than being all about power.


Next time as you go past give me a wave. So i know that you are looking out for fellow motorcyclists.

I wouldn't want to distract you.

[eldog]

You won't do much damage riding around a wet paddock somewhere, bend a lever perhaps & double the weight of the bike with mud.
If you get the opportunity, take it. I guarantee you will wet yourself laughing.

Don't get suckered into going for a ride with a few folks who give you a she'll be right attitude then take you into demoralising terrain. You may feel awful for holding up the the ride and end up hating the person who put you in that situation. As well as being physically & mentally wrecked.
Jump on an old shitter & spend an afternoon in a slippy paddock to start with.
Ahhhh, the joys of bare bones biking.:lol:

And yeah, what he said above. The texture of the grit & moistness of the road is irrelevant & beyond your control. It's the riding that counts.

Yes to all the above and other posters about learning to slide, I take it on board and I will do it. I know all about pine needles, I have my very own pine tree and the needles can be tricky at the best of times.

But I do take the texture of the road to be a area which we motorcyclists can alter. Isnt it a 'Health and Safety' issue.
Could we influence the Councils/ Govt/ ACC etc so that roads are much better condition rather than have tar bleed every where.

How many people have died or had accidents from shoddy road design and construction, How many have slid under trucks/cars coming the otherway.
Ok i can get more 'skills' and I am happy with that.

But road conditions could and should improve. Just like lowering alcohol level, how about we reduce the tar bleed level. This will reduce the ACC and insurance levies for bikes too wont it.

[eldog]

Any bike is capable of sliding or having the rear step out. It's about grip, or a lack thereof, rather than being all about power.

I wouldn't want to distract you.

I was talking about my riding, not the bikes capability. It has slid a little but mostly I find it bounces and is skittery.
I have good tyres and keep tyre pressure checked, and I avoid tar when I ride the scorpio where i can.

I was probably thinking what sort of driving change would happen if all the cagers had to get a motorcycle licence BEFORE getting a car license.

Traddies, Overseas travellers and Moms with kids are the worst esp Papakura

Madness the bike was much larger than the Scorpio.

[george formby]

I hear ya about road condition.
The only thing that is consistent about the roads up here is that they are hazardous, regrdless of the time of year. We have a full deck of slip demons. Mud, cow shit, tar snakes, diesel, pot holes, gravel, invisible gravel (you have to listen for it), green algae growing on the road, wet tar bleed. I could go on. I don't think the resources or the will is there to make significant improvements. The poor High Viz brigade were working 24 / 7 just to get the roads passable for cars & trucks after the recent flooding. It's a genuine mountain of a problem.

So, I ride a dual porpoise bike, slowly. Most of the time.

[Trade_nancy]

Of the 3 possible options listed above....I chose number TWO.
Mine went dancing at back in the rain the other day. A lot of rain. Open highway and turned right at intersection behind 2 slow vans. Pulled out to overtake and gave it a smidgen too much right hand (I thought at the time) as I went by the rear of the 1st van the rear wheel came round maybe half a metre. More throttle and it squirmed back on line. I rode back the next day in the dry and the spot I overtook had a long strip of smooth bled tar on the edge of the centre line and extending maybe half a metre wide. Less throttle and I think it would still have happened. I was on a Triumph 1050 triple - with a new PR4 rear tyre scrubbed in with 1k on it. Nothing would have prevented this in my view...except another wheel perhaps.

[eldog]

I hear ya about road condition.
The only thing that is consistent about the roads up here is that they are hazardous, regrdless of the time of year. We have a full deck of slip demons. Mud, cow shit, tar snakes, diesel, pot holes, gravel, invisible gravel (you have to listen for it), green algae growing on the road, wet tar bleed. I could go on. I don't think the resources or the will is there to make significant improvements. The poor High Viz brigade were working 24 / 7 just to get the roads passable for cars & trucks after the recent flooding. It's a genuine mountain of a problem.

So, I ride a dual porpoise bike, slowly. Most of the time.

Never ridden up that way, good to know about conditions. I am getting more k's and that seems to help me relax when riding. I can still feel the bike and tyres beneath me, which i reckon is a good thing. Not a numb nut.



Of the 3 possible options listed above....I chose number TWO.
Mine went dancing at back in the rain the other day. A lot of rain. Open highway and turned right at intersection behind 2 slow vans. Pulled out to overtake and gave it a smidgen too much right hand (I thought at the time) as I went by the rear of the 1st van the rear wheel came round maybe half a metre. More throttle and it squirmed back on line. I rode back the next day in the dry and the spot I overtook had a long strip of smooth bled tar on the edge of the centre line and extending maybe half a metre wide. Less throttle and I think it would still have happened. I was on a Triumph 1050 triple - with a new PR4 rear tyre scrubbed in with 1k on it. Nothing would have prevented this in my view...except another wheel perhaps.

I have heard about this this type of stuff from the Motorcycle transport guy who took the bike away to get repaired. Between Bombay and Thames there are good stretches exactly like you describe where it looks good to overtake, but people get taken out by the lack of traction.

The triumph triple nice

Below is the road in daylight, imagine at night, cloudy, and wet. 89 McKenzie Road Kingseat if you are interested
I visited the site 2 days later - to pick up bits and pieces. The Night before a ute coming the otherway spun out and missed a telegraph pole approx 150 m down the road ended up in ditch. Neighbour says approx 3-4 accidents every year. It looks innocent.... just trying to show others to be wary.....

303116303117303118

[george formby]

Nasty. Re-sealed up to the tip in point / apex, then skiddie.

Had you ridden the road before your bin?

Tough call but there is quite a contrast between the new chip seal & the old. Possibly enough even in bad visibility to temper corner speed & position, just in case.

I come from the UK originally, it rains constantly & the roads are usually equally as random as ours. My rule of thumb in dodgy conditions is to adjust my speed so I can look for grip, usually between the tire tracks of cars as in the photos.
Apart from improving handling skills something else you could take from this is to better assess what you are riding into. Not preaching, it's road craft.
The aim of the game is to get home safe & sound. That is totally up to you.

[cs363]

Nothing would have prevented this in my view...except another wheel perhaps.

Or possibly traction control...?

[eldog]

Nasty. Re-sealed up to the tip in point / apex, then skiddie.

Had you ridden the road before your bin?

Tough call but there is quite a contrast between the new chip seal & the old. Possibly enough even in bad visibility to temper corner speed & position, just in case.

I come from the UK originally, it rains constantly & the roads are usually equally as random as ours. My rule of thumb in dodgy conditions is to adjust my speed so I can look for grip, usually between the tire tracks of cars as in the photos.
Apart from improving handling skills something else you could take from this is to better assess what you are riding into. Not preaching, it's road craft.
The aim of the game is to get home safe & sound. That is totally up to you.

I had ridden that part of the road only 3 times
first time about a year ago on one of my first rides ever
second time earlier in the week and I was raining I was doing about 50 then and cut all off the corners, could hardly see anything.
third was listening to all the training to keep out wide to see. @ 70 kaput. but didnt see change in road

When I came off I was still travelling and was thrown approx 3m into air saw the bike pass beneath me and on ahead
I as lucky, bruised all of the following hip/thigh, foot/heel, shoulder and ego. no broken bones etc Doctor as very surprised most people break collarbone or rotator cuff. ATGATT with BMW impact armour LOL recommend that stuff, saved more damage. Picked up the bike (100 Hp 260 kg) as you do and rode it home

I take what you say on board, its what i need. not planning to race but want to improve skills and knowledge that's what KB for.

Appreciate the comments :2thumbsup

[george formby]

I had ridden that part of the road only 3 times
keep out wide to see. @below 70 kaput. but didnt see change in road


:2thumbsup

When I'm out on the bike and notice a dodgy bit of road or corner, potential hazard for whatever reason I find a wee thought keeps popping into my head. File that away for the future. It's like an inbuilt hazard map. I may not remember exact corners but I do remember the stretches of road.

Been heaps of debate on here about lines on the road, some of it pretty dogmatic.
It's all about compromise. In ideal conditions with good visibilty, maximum view is good. As soon as the conditions deteriorate the line and speed need to reduce to keep maximum grip & control. It's flexible depending on circumstances not a hard rule. Putting yourself on the best / safest, part of your lane at any given time.

[Trade_nancy]

It's all very well to say - learn to look and adjust....there will be a time when a rider such as yourself approaches this piece of shit posing as a road while the road ahead is obscured by vehicles in front of you. As you keep your eye on the vehicle ahead of you and the vehicle coming towards you and focus on your speedo so that plod doesn't bill you as well ..the rider will find themselves on top of that area and down and out like you. The LTSA or local council needs to be told and asked to remedy. I found the LTSA obliging in that way when I beefed about similar issues involving surface grit/gravel. Their contractors cut corners. They get onto them.

[eldog]

It's all about compromise. In ideal conditions with good visibilty, maximum view is good. As soon as the conditions deteriorate the line and speed need to reduce to keep maximum grip & control. It's flexible depending on circumstances not a hard rule. Putting yourself on the best / safest, part of your lane at any given time.


Hazard Map - I am beginning to remember sections of road more, in a car not much of a worry

Your comments above - PERFECT :first:
I tend to take rules and follow them precisely - hence my issue
I try not to bend them, but now I see they need to be adapted for purpose and conditions

I am getting the idea, Its about me, and taking responsibility for MYSELF.

[eldog]

It's all very well to say - learn to look and adjust....there will be a time when a rider such as yourself approaches this piece of shit posing as a road while the road ahead is obscured by vehicles in front of you. As you keep your eye on the vehicle ahead of you and the vehicle coming towards you and focus on your speedo so that plod doesn't bill you as well ..the rider will find themselves on top of that area and down and out like you. The LTSA or local council needs to be told and asked to remedy. I found the LTSA obliging in that way when I beefed about similar issues involving surface grit/gravel. Their contractors cut corners. They get onto them.

This is also true, I have made a complaint with Auckland Transport. Just waiting till next month to see if anything happens. Similar to road from Bombay to Tuakau - Big Dog have you noticed there is also a very unusual water feature on a major corner, water keeps coming out of the road. Got to get onto this one, At night almost invisible.

I never used to complain, now that I am riding I do -> Confidence

[george formby]

It's all very well to say - learn to look and adjust....there will be a time when a rider such as yourself approaches this piece of shit posing as a road while the road ahead is obscured by vehicles in front of you. As you keep your eye on the vehicle ahead of you and the vehicle coming towards you and focus on your speedo so that plod doesn't bill you as well ..the rider will find themselves on top of that area and down and out like you. The LTSA or local council needs to be told and asked to remedy. I found the LTSA obliging in that way when I beefed about similar issues involving surface grit/gravel. Their contractors cut corners. They get onto them.

Whoa. Settle petal.
Your absolutely right. We can only do the best we can & know. No guarantees on a bike. Ever. And yeah, the council will respond to complaints if they feel it is justified. But roads as perfect as race tracks just ain't gonna happen. And it won't stop raining. Well, I hope not, just planted some tomatoes.

I'm not preaching my own virtues either, pretty average over all and have a healthy fear of what can happen on the road. But. If something I post can help another rider then I'm happy. I'd love to see more and better riders on the roads.

Just sayin.:yes:

[eldog]

I am getting the idea, Its about me, and taking responsibility for MYSELF.

An update if anyone is interested.

Stopped riding with most other people, yes earlier posts said I might be slowing up the group and get demoralised - they were right
Got very demoralised, was seriously thinking of ditching riding altogether. Stopped doing a lot of stuff, as Depression set in bad.
Withdrew from a lot of people and only had contact with one or two. People noticied this at home and work too. Wasnt looking good for a while.

Went out for a ride with someone completely different - hadnt ridden with them before, no real destination, no speed, no direction, no instructions, good reasonable speed to match me, didnt make me feel like a boat anchor, no pressure, on a set of roads neither of us had ridden - lots and lots of curves to keep focussed.
It was this, and talking to others about stuff got me out of the hole, had a ride on his bike for a bit - so much more confidence - like a light turning on.

This was the start. Had to give up riding for about a month due to injuries, home and work load stuff.

But it was riding the other bike AND going with another rider totally unconnected with my past helped bring me back. Always wanted to ride since a nipper but not allowed till much older.

One of the previous posters suggested that the more varied riding conditions, eg offroad, gravel, track the better the ability to react and ride to the conditions etc. And they were toatlly correct. I hadnt done any type of riding till I got the Scorpio and that has been on gentle roads at my own pace (70-80). The group rides were at 80-100 I wasnt really ready for this. I know now that learners need a bit of leeway and guidance, each person is different so need to be treated so. Some come from more riding backgrounds some are like me (Overthinker and underlearner)

Talked to lots of people, my injuries are really only slight compaired to others, amazing number of people who have far worse injuries from much simplier accidents.
They were getting on with their lot and so am I. Shoulder and foot still ache but getting better. Frame of mind much better too. Still havent returned to the group of riders I was with before, at least not till injuires have healed more and my riding skills have improved too.

One thin I learnt was that even though I am a nervous, cautious, timid and overthinker rider, what I was doing was correct. Is the realisation that the style I am riding is perhaps more advanced than what a early beginner should have. I am happy with that. Confidence has grown, just got o keep it in check as over confidence for me is disaster, it will come just slower than most, but the result is better in the end.

Noticed there is a lot of tar bleed and other bad road defects around Tuakau/Kingseat area. The more I become more vigilant about road conditions etc the more my riding spots problems and this has helped my riding a lot to. This means that I can spot problems much earlier than I used to and it gives me more time to react.

SO now I am back on the bike, mostly by myself, just chipping away at skills piece by piece, still a long way to go before back with the group (they have been supportive) But they ride most days whereas my work precludes me riding and limits me to late nights and/or weekends - I tend to work long hours on weekends and nights.

Got to do some gravel/offroad, quick corner direction and gear changes and lots of slow speed stuff, I want to learn about skids and what to do. This will be one of the next things I will tackle, so the things like rear sliding out wont be a complete surprise next time, I will be prepared.

[george formby]

How very positive. Keep on keeping on.
I cannot bang on enough about slow speed handling skills, to my mind the easiest & safest way to increase bike control. It is all about practice, though. Getting things to become second nature.
Excellent.

[Big Dog]

Fing tapatalk.

[Big Dog]

I am getting the idea, Its about me, and taking responsibility for MYSELF.

Top stuff to hear.
One of the hardest things to learn is when to stop listening. For me that is often the voice within casting excessive doubt one week and over confidence the next.

Neither ends well.

It used to be all the other riders banging on about how fast they were and how slow I was. For me it was a major revelation after a couple of bins that nothing else mattered more than was I having a good time? Was I satisfied with my progress?
That I needed to stop paying their rent in my head.


The more you persevere and the more you do things in your own time and way the more fun you have.


If you want to go for a spin with someone who completely relates with your post and doesn't care what speed you are doing drop me a line.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Big Dog]

This is also true, I have made a complaint with Auckland Transport. Just waiting till next month to see if anything happens. Similar to road from Bombay to Tuakau - Big Dog have you noticed there is also a very unusual water feature on a major corner, water keeps coming out of the road. Got to get onto this one, At night almost invisible.

I never used to complain, now that I am riding I do -> Confidence

Oops. Did not see this post before. Yes there are a few permanent water features on the way to Tuakau. Also on the turn off to Tuakau they have put in a large square patch over winter. Right on the apex. All tar no aggregate. :grrr:
I make an effort or even I the dry apex late. Other wise in the wet you don't see it. I have slid both ends many times there.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[swbarnett]

I am getting the idea, Its about me, and taking responsibility for MYSELF.
Well done. You've just made the single most important step to surviving long term and enjoying the journey.

I commute daily the full length of Auckland's Southern motorway and although I still get pissed off with driver behaviour (although not often) I really don't care that much what they get up to. I just ride in a deliberate manner and keep myself out of harms way.

[swbarnett]

Yes there are a few permanent water features on the way to Tuakau. Also on the turn off to Tuakau they have put in a large square patch over winter. Right on the apex. All tar no aggregate. :grrr:
I make an effort or even I the dry apex late. Other wise in the wet you don't see it. I have slid both ends many times there.
I know exactly what you mean. I do that road every weekday unless I'm working from home. The bend at the bottom of the hill on Harrisville just before Logan Rd is the worst - always wet no matter the weather and now there's gravel from a pot-hole that the cars keep spreading. As for the Mill Rd/Harrisville Rd corner, I've slid the rear on that patch (funnily enough on my wife's bike, not mine). I tend to be a bit slow around that corner anyway.

[Big Dog]

I know exactly what you mean. I do that road every weekday unless I'm working from home. The bend at the bottom of the hill on Harrisville just before Logan Rd is the worst - always wet no matter the weather and now there's gravel from a pot-hole that the cars keep spreading. As for the Mill Rd/Harrisville Rd corner, I've slid the rear on that patch (funnily enough on my wife's bike, not mine). I tend to be a bit slow around that corner anyway.

I have to admit each time I have slid both ends I have gone in a little hot... usually because the cage behind me is showing no signs of slowing down even when I start braking.

[swbarnett]

I have to admit each time I have slid both ends I have gone in a little hot... usually because the cage behind me is showing no signs of slowing down even when I start braking.
I know the feeling. I had a LARGE truck do that to me on that corner. Doesn't pay to hang around.

Conversely, I take it real easy on Harrisville (particularly past Logan) when I'm coming home on a wet night after dark. I'll often get some dick right on my arse and when I tip in to a corner their headlight beam hit's my mirror. What they don't seem to realise is that if you can't see where I'm going the tendancy is to go even slower.

[Autech]

Great advice OP.
Had some big moments on hot slippery tar in my 250 days, learned my lessons and managed to hang on through all of em. Best thing to do is know your road. Don't be Rossi on a road you do not know or haven't ridden recently. Recognise the corners and sections which are bad for tar melt and ride like a Nanna through em, cause Nanna is much happier when ON her mobility scooter not in the ditch.:scooter:

[swbarnett]

Don't be Rossi on a road you do not know or haven't ridden recently.
Even one you have ridden recently. You just never know what's happened in the mean time. It pays to re-read every corner every time you go through it. Especially when it comes to surface conditions.

[haydes55]

Surprised to see some melted tar today, seems a bit early in summer, and not a particularly hot day either

[Fern]

different tar fail...


http://vimeo.com/113200396

[Big Dog]

different tar fail...



Gutted.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[eldog]

different tar fail...

Yeah, I know the feeling. Mine was different and sudden (1/2 way around a corner the tar bleed started in the dark country side) much the same end result

Hope not too much damage to you and the bike. Mine was 50% physical - 4+ months to heal, 6-8 months properly physically and mentally.

People don't realise how slippery that stuff is in the wet especially after a dry period.

More people should get off their bikes and walk on the stuff, see how little traction there is in the wet.

[Fern]

Wasn't me but a chap who lives in Perth. This happened in Mexico