South Island deep shingle roads, post your riding tips here.

[AlpinePossum]

Ok, let's face it. All the real interesting Roads on South Island have some really deep, shingle or gravel sections.

Post your survival tips here...

Here are mine (for what it's worth, flame me if I've got it wrong)... (Your flames will hurt less than a spill in the gravel, just so long as you tell me what the Right Answer is... :-) )

* Slow down.
* Choose a speed/gear that allows you to travel in the middle of your power band. Not chugging along near stalling, not revving high.
* No sudden moves with steering, power or brakes.
* Despite all panicky inclinations to grab those handlebars tight tight tight. DON'T. Relax those arms. Relax those shoulders. The front wheel will jig about a bit, let it and then recover. Trust to the stability of the bike.
* Grabbing the clutch is a Bad Idea. If you must change, get it over quick and smooth.
* Practice. Slow down even more (again choosing gearing as above) then (make sure road clear) weave from left to right across the road. Yes, over the big scary piles of shit in the middle. Sooner or later you are going to have to cross them anyway... so do it under slow controlled conditions first.
** If you point the front wheel at a small angle to the pile, the pile will just shovel the wheel off and your front wheel and you will be going different places.
** So turn before you hit the pile, and hit the edge of the pile at a fairly sharp angle.
** Coming out of the pile turn once your front wheel is on the car tracks and give a slightest burst of juice to kick you out of it.
* Keep two fingers on the front brakes... apart from being a Good Idea anyway... it allows for finer control of the throttle in a situation where everything is bouncing and wriggling like mad.
* When you start stuffing up.... Stop. Park the bike, switch off, lie down, close your eyes, rest and relax. You'll do hugely better on the next section.
* Add cornering in addition to the deep gravel, and the fact you really do not have the faintest idea what is around the next bend. A 4x4, a sheep, a log....
** So slower, emergency braking in deep shingle on a bend is, umm, awkward.
** Taking a racing line or delayed apexing means crossing the pile. Do you really want to be doing that? If you don't that means even slower cornering.
** If you do, don't forget the need to hit the edge of the pile at a sharpish angle.
** The inner edge on a lot of the mountain pass corners are either over banked or piled high with gravel or have a vicious ditch.
* It's never time to give up trying to recover. It may seem as if you are heading for a spill... keep trying to stay on. The bike is well engineered, it will probably right itself. You may shit yourself in the process... but thats OK.

[That looks like fun]

My bike is well engineered and will probably right itself :banana: Those clever Germans, zey zink of everythink :lol:
Wieght the outside peg, twist the throttle and pray, works some times :buggerd:

[inorganic]

those easy fast buggers on gravel ... are concentrating ... in an easy all encompassing way (zenlike?) ... but never lose concentration or toast is the outcome

[inorganic]

focus is the key!!

[NordieBoy]

Low tyre pressures help too...

This from one of todays roads...

http://www.photostorage.nelson.geek.nz/sports/motorsport/mybikes/Trips/20090919%20Dry%20Weather%20Road%20Tag/slides/20090919-144004-000014.jpg

[AlpinePossum]

those easy fast buggers on gravel ... are concentrating ... in an easy all encompassing way (zenlike?) ... but never lose concentration or toast is the outcome

Wandering thoughts will be punished more firmly and faster than being whacked by a Zen masters stick.

Which is why perhaps the most effective suggestion on my list is "when you're getting it wrong, stop, lie down and relax".

[AlpinePossum]

This from one of todays roads...


Sometimes I think those roading guys hate us or something. I must try that lower tire pressure idea. How much lower?

[AlpinePossum]

My bike is well engineered and will probably right itself :banana: Those clever Germans, zey zink of everythink


http://ruina.tam.cornell.edu/research/topics/bicycle_mechanics/JBike6_web_folder/JBike6_self_stable_files/bicycle_stability.mpeg


Weight the outside peg, twist the throttle and pray, works some times :buggerd:

Hmm. I must practise that weight the outside peg one.

[CookMySock]

Racetech emulators would be really good on a surface like that. Set them quite soft.

Not often we strike that type of road surface up here. I did once, and how the hell I was upright at the end of it puzzles me - front wheel wanted to knife down deeply into it and duck and dive around.. Not amusing. :pinch:

Steve

[bart]

You forgot to mention body position. I've found in all riding, using your body weight to your advantage helps heaps. Get you arse off the seat and move around a bit. Also lets the bike take the punishment, not your body.

[junkmanjoe]

like you face bart..... :shutup:

[Padmei]

Get you arse off the seat and move around a bit.

Then put your hands in the air & wave them like you don't care?






DR riders... all you want to do is party party party

[bart]

like you face bart..... :shutup:


Then put your hands in the air & wave them like you don't care?


DR riders... all you want to do is party party party

Raves aren't my thing. I was always more of a head banger.:Punk:

[Moki]

Then put your hands in the air & wave them...


...yelling ... "hey look, no hands!!"

[NordieBoy]

Which is why perhaps the most effective suggestion on my list is "when you're getting it wrong, stop, lie down and relax".

Or else you will have an unexpected stop, lie down and relax :D

[NordieBoy]

Sometimes I think those roading guys hate us or something. I must try that lower tire pressure idea. How much lower?

What are you talking about? The road was brilliant.

I dropped them to 20 front and rear for that.

[Phreaky Phil]

Unless they've just been graded all the roads will tend to have a wheel tracks in them where the cars run and compact the stones or push them out of the way. this is where the best traction is. I'll usually try to stick in the left hand wheel line even in the corners (especially LEFT HAND one in corners) Crossing between wheel lines in deep shingle is where your most likely to come unstuck

[NordieBoy]

Racetech emulators would be really good on a surface like that. Set them quite soft.

Not often we strike that type of road surface up here. I did once, and how the hell I was upright at the end of it puzzles me - front wheel wanted to knife down deeply into it and duck and dive around.. Not amusing. :pinch:

Steve

Intiminators are even more betterer :Punk:

[NordieBoy]

Rosedale Road at the moment from the summit to the Jacobs Ladder end is slow twisty deep gravel :woohoo:

[Woodman]

Rosedale Road at the moment from the summit to the Jacobs Ladder end is slow twisty deep gravel :woohoo:

Tell me about it!!! Went down there on friday and was doing some cool 2 wheel drifty things round some of them corners. (possibly need a new front tyre)

On weighting the outside pegs, I have started weighting the inside peg coming out of corners and is way more funnerer in a rear wheel hanging out sorta way.

[cooneyr]

My tips - bit boring and practical really - no zen or praying.

stay loose and let the bike move.
use a bit of power to crossing any loose areas. I don't mean fistfuls and wheelies but enough to lighten the front end by extend the forks.
when cornering (even if crossing the centre strip of gravel) do the following

brake before the corner
lean the bike but keep your body reasonably upright by extend the arm on the inside of the corner - your body will still lean a bit. This is the opposite of road bike riders hanging off the inside.
gas it through and out of the corner - again to lighten the front end by extending the forks. Once you get the hang of this you find it becoming easier and easier to power slide around corners.


HTH
Cheers R

[That looks like fun]

[QUOTE=AlpinePossum;1129414906]http://ruina.tam.cornell.edu/research/topics/bicycle_mechanics/JBike6_web_folder/JBike6_self_stable_files/bicycle_stability.mpeg


Bike stayed upright quite well :shifty: until it ran into the white shed :shit:

[buggsubique]

My tips - bit boring and practical really - no zen or praying.

stay loose and let the bike move.
use a bit of power to crossing any loose areas. I don't mean fistfuls and wheelies but enough to lighten the front end by extend the forks.
when cornering (even if crossing the centre strip of gravel) do the following

brake before the corner
lean the bike but keep your body reasonably upright by extend the arm on the inside of the corner - your body will still lean a bit. This is the opposite of road bike riders hanging off the inside.
gas it through and out of the corner - again to lighten the front end by extending the forks. Once you get the hang of this you find it becoming easier and easier to power slide around corners.


HTH
Cheers R

wot he sed

[Transalper]

Buy the first www.dualsportriding.com (http://www.dualsportriding.com/) DVD, watch and learn. (or get in touch and we can get a couple of us together to watch and discuss mine again)
Most your old and up and comming questions will be answered.
It's stuff most us have tried and now practice.
It covered this thread too.

[bart]

Riding gravel's easy. As long as you've got some kind of minimal control of the front, point it where you want to go and squirt the throttle. Control of the back end is optional.

Do your braking well before the corner while you're upright. Coast into the corner with minimal revs, and power out. Works for me, but I don't mind torturing my back tyre.

I find standing and getting my weight well forward can whip you around a corner real quick.

[Eddieb]

Buy the first www.dualsportriding.com (http://www.dualsportriding.com/) DVD, watch and learn. (or get in touch and we can get a couple of us together to watch and discuss mine again).

+1

For those in Welly with the same questions I have this DVD also. We could do a DVD evening sometime if anyone is interested. I also have 2nd advanced DVD.

[AlpinePossum]

Buy the first www.dualsportriding.com (http://www.dualsportriding.com/) DVD, watch and learn. (or get in touch and we can get a couple of us together to watch and discuss mine again)


Sounds interesting. I'd love to watch it. If you up to arranging something, I'm in... else I guess I'll have to fork out for my own copy.

Perhaps you should take up a collection so you can buy the advanced one as well. (Love to watch both!)

[Toureg]

If the gravel is that deep you aren't going to be covering that much ground anyway, take to the verge, it is easier on the body at the same pace.

[tri boy]

Racetech emulators would be really good on a surface like that. Set them quite soft.

Not often we strike that type of road surface up here. I did once, and how the hell I was upright at the end of it puzzles me - front wheel wanted to knife down deeply into it and duck and dive around.. Not amusing. :pinch:

Steve

Quite common on the west Waikato back country.
The sound of rocks punishing the scramblers bash plate is a special kinda song.:sunny:
Know what ya mean about the front getting nervous though. 205kg, and a 19'' front can have you working hard.

[Ruralman]

You forgot to mention body position. I've found in all riding, using your body weight to your advantage helps heaps. Get you arse off the seat and move around a bit. Also lets the bike take the punishment, not your body.

Couldn't agree more - there are times, especially on gravel on hills with corners, where you need to get your weight well forward (ie slide right up to the tank) and if you've got a pillion pull her forward a bit too, to get the front wheel to turn the bike properly. This is really pronounced on slightly off camber turns either going uphill or downhill.
It doesn't matter too much what the rear end is doing - you can be spraying the world with stones or just applying power to make it match the available traction, but you do want your front wheel to go where intended.
Theres the opposite situation of course with ruts, very loose heavy gravel with wheel tracks etc on straighter bits where its best to keep your weight well back and let the front wheel and suspension do their thing getting over and through it with the occasional application of power to help straighten out or push through.

I find it hard to think back to how I ride this stuff - just do it like I have for years. I do know though that the tensest moments always seem to happen when riding very cautiously and probably more tensed up, rather than more relaxed and free with everything

I agree with CooneyR - move the bike from side to side staying upright yourself, rather than sitting on it like you do on the seal

When it comes to which wheel track to take - if theres 3 wheel tracks (ie the cars use the middle one going either way) then I ride the middle one. Its the best packed down and usually the widest. On narrow windy roads I often use the right hand one and cross back just as I come into the corner - the reason for doing this is that it gives you much better vision through and around the corner for traffic/animals etc.
I think what I do to get over the gravel humps between the wheel marks is to power on on the hard stuff and then back off and almost coast over the ridge whilst hitting it at a bit of an angle so you get it over with quickly.
I ride standing up a lot on my Gas Gas whilst trail riding but never feel the need adventure riding unless perhaps going down hill over a slow technical ,rough section?

[thepom]

I ll come round if your up for a dvd session......

[Transalper]

I only have space for 4 or 5 people at a stretch and we have 4 now.
Any more hands and we'd need a new host.
Most convenient evening for me will be this Friday the 25th as J is otherwise occupied then.
After that I don't know.

[babysteps]

My $0.02 if you think you need to use your front brake, don’t. And secondly as most people have said use your body position to steer the bike

[cooneyr]

My $0.02 if you think you need to use your front brake, don’t.....

I disagree. Even on gravel the front brake has the most power. Learning to modulate the front brake is a very helpful thing. Gentle and progressive application is the key.

[That looks like fun]

When my beemer still had ABS it gave a lot of confidence with the front brake in gravel, :woohoo: unfortunatly it gave stuff all stopping with the rear one :crazy:
No ABS, had to learn how to brake properly again, and there aint no better teacher than a gravel road :rockon:

[Moki]

+1

For those in Welly with the same questions I have this DVD also. We could do a DVD evening sometime if anyone is interested. I also have 2nd advanced DVD.

I need to get that off you sometime soon Eddie :whistle:

[Transalper]

Indeed, the only time I'm reluctant to use the front brake is on ice, or probably a big deasle spill if I fail to avoid it.
It even works fine in mud if you apply it correctly.

[tri boy]

I guess i use the front brake about 75% of the time. Picking when n where, and getting a feel for whats happening is the challenge. Braking while verticle is the secret. Powerful is the front. Mmmmmmmm.

[drbandit]

I have to agree, (spent too much time riding mountain bikes instead of motorbikes over last 18yrs.) The front brake is so important. 70/30% in stopping.The important thing is modulate it. Use as much as necessary before corner... but very little if any in corner. On steep sharp downhills you just have to slow the mass down and if engine breaking/rear brake isn't working you gotta use front brake. The two together work way better than the back.

[AlpinePossum]

My $0.02 if you think you need to use your front brake, don’t. And secondly as most people have said use your body position to steer the bike

I use the front brake. Too effective not to. As I mentioned in my post I find covering it with two fingers helps for fine control on the throttle.

Two fingers are usually enough in gravel anyway. Much more and the front wheel starts doing Bad Things.

On all except slick surfaces I use both brakes, I just use slightly less front on the gravel and release at the first hint of a slide.

I'll definitely take on board yours (and others) suggestion to use more "body english".

[AlpinePossum]

I find it hard to think back to how I ride this stuff - just do it like I have for years.


Heh! We're all going to see our arses next time we ride gravel.

Instead of focusing (as mentioned above), we're going to be sitting their thinking... "What did Ruralman say? Was it move our weight forward or was it back, inside peg or outside?" then WHAM we'll be tits up nursing some serious gravel rash.:laugh:

It's the centipede effect... Supposedly centipedes just know which leg to move first... unless they stop to think about it first!

Ah well, that's usually the way of it... try it with conscious thought and get it wrong, sleep on it, then get it right the next day with subconscious thought.

[babysteps]

Hmmm I'll rephrase what I typed above for clarity. "If you feel you need to grab handfulls of Front Brake, dont" :shit:

[Transalper]

:laugh: yes, handfuls bad, very bad, that sounds betterererer

[Ruralman]

Heh! We're all going to see our arses next time we ride gravel.

Instead of focusing (as mentioned above), we're going to be sitting their thinking... "What did Ruralman say? Was it move our weight forward or was it back, inside peg or outside?" then WHAM we'll be tits up nursing some serious gravel rash.:laugh:

It's the centipede effect... Supposedly centipedes just know which leg to move first... unless they stop to think about it first!

Ah well, that's usually the way of it... try it with conscious thought and get it wrong, sleep on it, then get it right the next day with subconscious thought.

Oh shit was it that confusing - let me see - how about when you really need the front wheel to steer then put your weight forward. If you just need the front wheel to float over some stuff without causing too much drama then get your weight back (just like when you ride the longitudinal ruts on a trail ride)
was that simple enough to go into the sub conscious ??