Weekend Warriors

[dpex]

It's a vexing issue.

I can't ever remember seeing a shiny thumper, complete with some ageing dude togged up in leathers, the style which I used to see during my child-hood TV watching cowboy movies, at any track day I have done; which is now quite a few. Why is that?

I guess the coupling question is; why do a track-day? Whooooo! Now there's a question.

But, for the moment, let's consider AMCC run, Advanced Rider Training days. These, in my opinion, are the best 'learning' track-days available.

I would add, and I believe the conveners would agree; such days could include a hell of a lot more, but track-cost and competing requirements for each day tend to restrict the time available to 'newbie and come-backers'.

Perhaps, if and when Hampton Downs comes on line, the pressure may ease on Puke and thus allow AMCC to run more thorough rider-training for those who really need it. And I include in this group the Week-End Warriors.

The ageing, come-backers who ride (maybe) once a week. And so, once a week (maybe) the warriors get togged up and flick a leg over 700-to-1600 CC's of serious equipment.

Some of them might be taxi or truck, or courier-drivers and thus have huge and continuous experience in spotting oncoming threats from other drivers, but they're still weekend warriors, now atop a machine with which they are only vaguely familiar.

Others will be the executive type who drive to and from the office, swaddled in silent, sophisticated automatics. Then they, also, climb aboard their two-wheeled Hercules for the weekend blow-out.

So this type, being short-distance drivers in any event, climb aboard 'The beast' with nowhere near the daily road skills of the afore-mentioned taxi/truck/courier drivers.

There is an aged adage regarding skill. It is, 'Use it or lose it.'

Driving a car is presumed to be the right of all who can pass a modest (at best) test. Passing the 'test' to ride a bike isn't that much more complex.

But, at least the cager is surrounded by stuff which, often, will save the cager in the event of a modest splat. But not so a biker. A modest splat on a bike mostly becomes a major event.

I guess the question is...after all this. How do we convince the average weekend warrior, dressed in flash, with the wind in his face, that without some remedial training, he's likely to end up as a statistic?

[Katman]

You're easily vexed, aren't you?

[PirateJafa]

You bitch about trivial rubbish nearly as much as Slofox.

[Virago]

...I guess the question is...after all this. How do we convince the average weekend warrior, dressed in flash, with the wind in his face, that without some remedial training, he's likely to end up as a statistic?

You can't.

Because, at the end of the day, it's none of your business.

[p.dath]

I suspect you'll find a lot of returning riders don't even know about things like ART days.

[FJRider]

I guess the question is...after all this. How do we convince the average weekend warrior, dressed in flash, with the wind in his face, that without some remedial training, he's likely to end up as a statistic?

Chat to them after their first off .... they will be more open to "suggestions" then ...

[Headbanger]

I guess the question is...after all this. How do we convince the average weekend warrior, dressed in flash, with the wind in his face, that without some remedial training, he's likely to end up as a statistic?

First,show me the stats to prove its the sterotype you have described that are killing themselves at a higher rate then others.

Second, I ride on the weekends, and not every weekend, and if you tried your judgemental holier-then-thou bullshit on me I'd tell you to fuck yourself.

[AllanB]

There is an aged adage regarding skill. It is, 'Use it or lose it.'

I keep telling Mrs B this .............

[Nagash]

You're concerned about people who ride every weekend?

These people can't be so thick as to forget how to not crash within a week surely..

Sure, they may or may not be as 'skilled' as your daily rider, but that doesn't mean they're destined to ride dangerously does it?

Just leave the bastards alone to do their own thing..

[AllanB]

Second, I ride on the weekends, and not every weekend, and if you tried your judgemental holier-then-thou bullshit on me I'd tell you to fuck yourself.

Yep - there is a presumption that to be a "real rider" you have to ride 24/7. It's utter crap.
Just about everyone I know rides weekends only and chuck in a few tours during summer. Nothing wrong with that.

[AD345]

Still wobbling on about other peoples business?

tell ya what:


How do we convince the average weekend warrior, dressed in flash, with the wind in his face, that without some remedial training, he's likely to end up as a statistic?

I will bring 15 "weekend warriors" to an RRRS course if you promise to never post on KB again along as you shall live - so help you god.

[dpex]

First,show me the stats to prove its the sterotype you have described that are killing themselves at a higher rate then others.

Second, I ride on the weekends, and not every weekend, and if you tried your judgemental holier-then-thou bullshit on me I'd tell you to fuck yourself.

Firstly, Head, JRandom is the one you need to ask for stats. He'll have them, for sure.

Secondly, I'd lay odds that the dearly departed comprise week-end warriors and newbies; mostly.

Thirdly, that you ride on week-ends, and not every weekend, puts you right slap-dab in the middle of the likely-to-become-the dearly departed, especially since your reply is so ill-considered and combative. The latter of course would transfer to your demeanor on the road....Probably.

[dpex]

Still wobbling on about other peoples business?

tell ya what:



I will bring 15 "weekend warriors" to an RRRS course if you promise to never post on KB again along as you shall live - so help you god.

Nup. Not an RRRS course, but an AMCC ART day. And then, during the last round, if any of your warriors can beat me around the track....on weekend warrior bikes, then yeah, I'd be prepared to pull in my head.

[Headbanger]

Firstly, Head, JRandom is the one you need to ask for stats. He'll have them, for sure.

Secondly, I'd lay odds that the dearly departed comprise week-end warriors and newbies; mostly.

Thirdly, that you ride on week-ends, and not every weekend, puts you right slap-dab in the middle of the likely-to-become-the dearly departed, especially since your reply is so ill-considered and combative. The latter of course would transfer to your demeanor on the road....Probably.

Awesome power of assumption, What's also awesome is how little credibility that power holds.

The key is to ride to your ability, That is all.No matter how many skills you think you have, if you ride over your head your increasing your chances of eating some road.

Daily commuting skills can suck on my arse.

[Headbanger]

Nup. Not an RRRS course, but an AMCC ART day. And then, during the last round, if any of your warriors can beat me around the track....on weekend warrior bikes, then yeah, I'd be prepared to pull in my head.

Your a nub aint ya.

How old are you?

[Katman]

if any of your warriors can beat me around the track....

Oh, how I ROFLed.

[ital916]

The biggest error in your post is you are assuming that the amount of time spent on the road is what constitutes a "normal" and "experienced" motorcyclist. That those riders who use their bikes once a week are in some way inferior to motorcyclists that use them everyday.

See, it grinds my gears when someone starts grouping motorcyclists into hardcore riders, weekend warriors blah blah blah. In the end we are all motorcyclists be it we ride every day or once a month.

The only thing that will tell them if they need more training is themselves. Those who realise they need more practice and help seek it. Those who don't, don't seek it. Simple innit!

The outcome after this is up to rider and the biker gods. It helps to carry a virgin sacrifice on ones bike to appease the biker gods.

[rosie631]

Second, I ride on the weekends, and not every weekend, and if you tried your judgemental holier-then-thou bullshit on me I'd tell you to fuck yourself.

+1 Same here

[boman]

The biggest error in your post is you are assuming that the amount of time spent on the road is what constitutes a "normal" and "experienced" motorcyclist. That those riders who use their bikes once a week are in some way inferior to motorcyclists that use them everyday.

See, it grinds my gears when someone starts grouping motorcyclists into hardcore riders, weekend warriors blah blah blah. In the end we are all motorcyclists be it we ride every day or once a month.

The only thing that will tell them if they need more training is themselves. Those who realise they need more practice and help seek it. Those who don't, don't seek it. Simple innit!

The outcome after this is up to rider and the biker gods. It helps to carry a virgin sacrifice on ones bike to appease the biker gods.

I agree :blink::blink:

[AllanB]

if any of your warriors can beat me around the track....on weekend warrior bikes, then yeah, I'd be prepared to pull in my head.

Ah - see you are obviously one of those "track-day-tossers" who craves up the road thinking it's their own personal race track, cutting through blind corners and crowding out the weekend warrior enjoying their ride.

Just WTF do you really think it would prove to have your wee track race?

Second thoughts - I'll put my money on the bunch of weekend warriors who catch up with you after you carve your way through them.:2guns:

Stupid little labels.

Weekend Warriors
Tarmac Tossers
Real bikers

bla bla

[AD345]

Nup. Not an RRRS course, but an AMCC ART day. And then, during the last round, if any of your warriors can beat me around the track....on weekend warrior bikes, then yeah, I'd be prepared to pull in my head.

A track???

Who the hell wants to go round and round and round and round a bloody track?

It may have escaped your attention oh wonderous-god-of-all-things motorcycling but theres a fairly sizeable proportion of us that have no bloody interest at all in track riding. Otherwise we would've, you know, got a SPORTS bike!

It may moisten your panties to partake in such pursuits - more power to ya - but no-one I know gives a flying fuck about track riding.

The original offer still stand - unadulterated and non negotiable. Hell, for the price of your departure I'd pay for the entire day myself

[rosie631]

dpex for forum jerk - get your votes in people

[Katman]

dpex for forum jerk - get your votes in people

Haven't you got some ironing to do?

[rosie631]

LMAO Nah, afraid not

[trumpy]

Well I'm an ageing comebacker and a weekend warrior, the combination of which (in your terms) makes me a serious danger to myself and everyone else on the road. Oh yeah, I fell off once too so that probably proves your point.

Some of us actually have to (and want to) make a living and doing so may require quite a different form of transport. I drive about 75,000kms a year making sure I can still pay my staff (and myself) each week and that my business stays viable. Unfortunately that means driving a bloody great Falcon wagon as I have yet to figure out how to fit several wheelchairs and other sundry equipment on the back of my bike. Consequently I am a weekend warrior out of necessity but it hardly effects my "status" as a rider and I am quite frankly sick of being lectured by self righteous prats, usually half my age, on what I should and shouldn't do as a biker.

My one off (the only one I have ever had, including my somewhat reckless youth) involved me and me alone and I have enough intelligence to have learned from that episode as to when, and when not to ride.

I am fully aware of my level of skills and of my limitations and spend my weekends making a deliberate effort to reduce those limitations. Yes I have done a couple of track days in my nice shiny gear, and I may do some more again but I actually like riding around the country either by myself or with friends.

I will probably never be as fast or as skillful as you but that doesn't diminish the experience I have each time I go for a ride nor does it lessen my value as a rider.

rant over, now back to the bikini thread...............

[dpex]

Ah - see you are obviously one of those "track-day-tossers" who craves up the road thinking it's their own personal race track, cutting through blind corners and crowding out the weekend warrior enjoying their ride.

Just WTF do you really think it would prove to have your wee track race?

Second thoughts - I'll put my money on the bunch of weekend warriors who catch up with you after you carve your way through them.:2guns:

Stupid little labels.

Weekend Warriors
Tarmac Tossers
Real bikers

bla bla

I presume you are well used to making unsubstantiable claims, not least of which is that asserting I 'carve-up' weekend warriors and generally hoon the highways and by-ways.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I get my rocks off (and go through countless bottles of heart-pills) on the track. Pushing me and bike, often to overload. On the road I now far prefer just to amble along.

I purposely don't wear any level or real protection clothing on the road. This serves to remind me AT ALL TIMES that taking matters at a cordial rate will see me end my journey in one piece. Having splashed on the track enough times, I know it hurts even when fully togged up. What it would be like with no protection beggars my imagination, so I choose to not find out the hard way.

Interestingly....although this may be unique to my psyche...on those rare occasions I do tog up in all the gear, for the road, I find myself starting to push the bike. I guess that must be something similar to what happens to folk when they don a mask.

However, prior to finding the joys of the freedoms of the track I used to ride like many other red-misted knob-jockeys.

Not any more. I don't feel the need.

[dpex]

Well I'm an ageing comebacker and a weekend warrior, the combination of which (in your terms) makes me a serious danger to myself and everyone else on the road. Oh yeah, I fell off once too so that probably proves your point.

Some of us actually have to (and want to) make a living and doing so may require quite a different form of transport. I drive about 75,000kms a year making sure I can still pay my staff (and myself) each week and that my business stays viable. Unfortunately that means driving a bloody great Falcon wagon as I have yet to figure out how to fit several wheelchairs and other sundry equipment on the back of my bike. Consequently I am a weekend warrior out of necessity but it hardly effects my "status" as a rider and I am quite frankly sick of being lectured by self righteous prats, usually half my age, on what I should and shouldn't do as a biker.

My one off (the only one I have ever had, including my somewhat reckless youth) involved me and me alone and I have enough intelligence to have learned from that episode as to when, and when not to ride.

I am fully aware of my level of skills and of my limitations and spend my weekends making a deliberate effort to reduce those limitations. Yes I have done a couple of track days in my nice shiny gear, and I may do some more again but I actually like riding around the country either by myself or with friends.

I will probably never be as fast or as skillful as you but that doesn't diminish the experience I have each time I go for a ride nor does it lessen my value as a rider.

rant over, now back to the bikini thread...............

Hey Trumpy, three points in reply.

1st. Any person driving 75K a year is, perforce, a very skilled driver. You, like your peers, will have an auto-pilot programme which alerts you to dangers even before they register in your consciousness. You're the sort who knows when some pratt is about to turn right even before the pratt makes the final decision. Thus your skills on the road are way above the average dude who drives 15Ks to work, then home again, then leaps on the beast on the weekends.

2nd. You assert you are fully aware of your level of skills. That puts you in the half of one percent of most weekend warriors.

3rd. I ride neither particularly fast or skilfully, when compared to those who do and are. But like you. I know my limitations.

Good post though. :--))

[Mom]

Thirdly, that you ride on week-ends, and not every weekend, puts you right slap-dab in the middle of the likely-to-become-the dearly departed

Well you know, I ride weekends nowadays (will change once my blue lovely is back on the road again) and I dont ride every weekend either. Been doing this for many years now, though once upon a time a bike was my only form of transport. I seem to have manged to avoid becoming a statistic thus far, and I have no plans to become one anytime soon either.


Nup. Not an RRRS course, but an AMCC ART day. And then, during the last round, if any of your warriors can beat me around the track....on weekend warrior bikes, then yeah, I'd be prepared to pull in my head.

What makes you think that being able to beat someone on a race track makes you less likely to become a statistic on the open road with all its hidden dangers? Certainly track time will improve your ability to handle your bike around corners at speed, make you a bit smoother, teach you your limits, or your bikes for that matter.

I wonder what the stats are for bullet proof track day riders who issue challenges to others, then get cleaned up by other road users while they were so busy congratulating themselves on their fantastic skills their spidey sense has become dulled?

[dpex]

You're easily vexed, aren't you?

No. It's the "let's get the crash-rate to zero" zealots who are vexed.

Frankly, I don't believe the NZ crash-rate, of all sorts, can be lessened by any sort of lineal application of yet more rules.

This year it will be X. Next year it will be Y.

But you have to admit it's a bit of a worry that Hon Steven Joyce has noted that motorcyclists are represented in the stats at a disproportionate rate. That means just one thing....More turns of the screw till 'we' get these pesky, yet utterly capable, according to many, motorcyclists to stop getting dead.

And who will be there to enforce these new and even more pointless and repressive rules? Nobody. Like there's nobody (aka, cops) enforcing the rules now.

I say again; apart from a minute proportion of drivers, NZ drivers are largely self-governing.

You're a bit of an old woman and mostly a pain in the arse, Katman. However, you're not stupid. So try this.

Do an 8-hour road-trip. Mix suburban with country, and count the number of vehicles you pass, both ways, then count the number of serious transgressions you encounter....Serious meaning, life-threatening as opposed to just breaking a rule where no danger exists from breaking the rule.

Then divide the vehicles you pass by the number of transgressions. You'll be unlucky to observe a 0.001% result.

But you can bet your booties that the pressure from ACC will be pressuring Joyce to come up with some creative politico-speak to assuage ACC's fears of mounting and insupportable bills which are coupled to a gov demand to reduce their costs. And we bikers are going to be at the front end of that gratuitous pillum.

Lastly, on account of you haven't commented. Do you agree that once-a-week bikers, who drive short distances in their cages during the week, are as capably aware as those bikers who ride daily?

Just curious.

[Katman]

Lastly, on account of you haven't commented. Do you agree that once-a-week bikers, who drive short distances in their cages during the week, are as capably aware as those bikers who ride daily?



What a stupid question.

Some are and some aren't.

[phill-k]

Nup. Not an RRRS course, but an AMCC ART day. And then, during the last round, if any of your warriors can beat me around the track....on weekend warrior bikes, then yeah, I'd be prepared to pull in my head.

fuck ya mate its not about the race its about personal saftey and doing it in ya own time - go get a life boy

[AllanB]

I presume you are well used to making unsubstantiable claims, not least of which is that asserting I 'carve-up' weekend warriors and generally hoon the highways and by-ways.


No mate - I threw that in as a equally silly statement to parallel your broad comment about 'weekend warriors' - taring all once/twice a week riders with the same sticky brush.

I'm now more concerned about your lack of suitable riding attire when on the road and your reason for justifying it.

Do you think that your track-day skills will enable you to avoid that car that just does not see you?

It's been a long few years since I did a track ride - Do they now have cars randomly shoot across the racetrack to hone these skills?

[boomer]

Lastly, on account of you haven't commented. Do you agree that once-a-week bikers, who drive short distances in their cages during the week, are as capably aware as those bikers who ride daily?

Just curious.


I drive to work and ride every now and then, I haven't ridden my bike in anger for a long time. Sunday we did the loop with my mates from work who all commute, every day; Beyond and I were waiting at the main stops for over 20 minutes...

This weekend warrior carved up the CoroGP and left the competition for dead ...


your arguments are flawed

[dpex]

Mom.

Can I safely assert you haven't done an AMCC Advanced Rider Training track day?

They're not about speed (for the lesser riders) they're all about cornering and bike handling.

Sure, speeding down the two straights is a buzz, sort've. But learning how badly you corner, when following a line marshal, kinda sets your ego back a pace or twelve.

I remember following my very first line marshal into Jenian, then into the 'S' prior to Castrol, and thinking I was doing okay. As I started the role into Castrol, feeling like Valentino on the edge, I saw the fucking line-marshal had his left hand on his hip and was looking BACK at me!

It was about then that I realised I couldn't ride for shit and that I had to suck in my silly ego and suck out every last bit of knowledge from this man's head.

I had this dude coaching me for most of the day. We'd do a few circuits then pull into the dummy grid and he'd give me the Billy Graham about what I was doing right and wrong. As the day progressed, the wrongs gave way to more rights.

He led me, he followed me, he pushed me.

On the last round of the day I asserted, 'Right, let's see if I can follow you.'

Tee hee. The next time I saw him, after the first corner (Jenian) was when he passed me again, four laps later.

But I learned a shit-load on that day. Much more than I had learned on other track days whereupon I just went out and gave it as much death as I felt able.

And so, the AMCC, ART days aren't about just roaring around wasting petrol, they're true learning days....at least, for those who wish to learn.

The attitude of the AMCC folk is simple. Come to a track day. Avail yourselves of our expertise or don't. You choose. You can simply bash around the track, having a ball or you can get serious, pull in your stomach and ask for help. And believe me, when you ask for help, they're at you like a father trying to keep his two year-old from touching the stove element.

Then they chuck in a huge lunch, just for drill. :--))

Other track days are set up for a different audience; but each have their place in the great scheme of things.

On anyb track-day you come away knowing more than you did before the day began.

On an AMCC, ART day, should you chose to become a pupil, as opposed to a freedom fighter, you come away with so much more.

[dpex]

I drive to work and ride every now and then, I haven't ridden my bike in anger for a long time. Sunday we did the loop with my mates from work who all commute, every day; Beyond and I were waiting at the main stops for over 20 minutes...

This weekend warrior carved up the CoroGP and left the competition for dead ...


your arguments are flawed

Geez. But ain't you a hero? Not.

[ital916]

They're not about speed (for the lesser riders) they're all about cornering and bike handling.


A slower rider is not necesserily a lesser rider. Some choose not to do trackdays and are perfectly fine at cornering.

You don't have to hit every apex, and imagine ripple strips on every turn. Mind you I did selectively quote that and should still give a big thumbs up for the informative info on your track session. It is always good to get practice in, just say that sort of stuff without throwing in the other crap and you will be better off.

[James Deuce]

Mom.

Can I safely assert you haven't done an AMCC Advanced Rider Training track day?

They're not about speed (for the lesser riders) they're all about cornering and bike handling.

Sure, speeding down the two straights is a buzz, sort've. But learning how badly you corner, when following a line marshal, kinda sets your ego back a pace or twelve.

I remember following my very first line marshal into Jenian, then into the 'S' prior to Castrol, and thinking I was doing okay. As I started the role into Castrol, feeling like Valentino on the edge, I saw the fucking line-marshal had his left hand on his hip and was looking BACK at me!

It was about then that I realised I couldn't ride for shit and that I had to suck in my silly ego and suck out every last bit of knowledge from this man's head.

I had this dude coaching me for most of the day. We'd do a few circuits then pull into the dummy grid and he'd give me the Billy Graham about what I was doing right and wrong. As the day progressed, the wrongs gave way to more rights.

He led me, he followed me, he pushed me.

On the last round of the day I asserted, 'Right, let's see if I can follow you.'

Tee hee. The next time I saw him, after the first corner (Jenian) was when he passed me again, four laps later.

But I learned a shit-load on that day. Much more than I had learned on other track days whereupon I just went out and gave it as much death as I felt able.

And so, the AMCC, ART days aren't about just roaring around wasting petrol, they're true learning days....at least, for those who wish to learn.

The attitude of the AMCC folk is simple. Come to a track day. Avail yourselves of our expertise or don't. You choose. You can simply bash around the track, having a ball or you can get serious, pull in your stomach and ask for help. And believe me, when you ask for help, they're at you like a father trying to keep his two year-old from touching the stove element.

Then they chuck in a huge lunch, just for drill. :--))

Other track days are set up for a different audience; but each have their place in the great scheme of things.

On anyb track-day you come away knowing more than you did before the day began.

On an AMCC, ART day, should you chose to become a pupil, as opposed to a freedom fighter, you come away with so much more.

It pays to bear in mind that you learned a lot about riding on a track. I've seen my share of track heroes T-bone cars while the old bloke on the Triumph with the single leading shoe drum brake is stopped about a 100 metres down the road because he could see what was coming.

Track skills and road sense are not in any way related.

[s8306]

What a bullshit thread.How the fuck does someone who rides on the weekend get the label of weekend warrior.What a crock of shit.

[Katman]

What a crock of shit.

You'll get used to him.

[The Stranger]

Nup. Not an RRRS course, but an AMCC ART day.

Hmm, you appear to place a lot of stock in the AMCC ART days.
Last time I was at one I thought they were excellent for the track and for learning your bike (a valid skill for sure) and racing lines. But I note that the road is not a track and has no flag marshalls. I also note that racing lines are not road lines and there are intersections and opposing traffic (etc etc) on roads.
Is the track really the best option for weekend warriors?

[Laava]

Righto, show's over! Everyone get back in your pidgeon holes!

[Madness]

dpex for forum jerk - get your votes in people
Pretty pointless whilst he's up against the one and only Katman. :laugh:

[PrincessBandit]

dpex, you're a condescending twat. Boast all you like about your prowess, sounds to me simply a variation of small dicked man syndrome.

[ital916]

dpex, you're a condescending twat. Boast all you like about your prowess, sounds to me simply a variation of small dicked man syndrome.

Not quite as eloquent as katman, but more to the point.

[Usarka]

A guy I knew was a real cricket nut. He played all through school, and into his mid-twenties.

Fuck he was useless.

We'd all kick his arse playing tip'ne run in the backyard.

[Katman]

Not quite as eloquent as katman, but more to the point.

There's only three words I'd have added to it.

:msn-wink:

[Deano]

This may be irrelevant, but there are many weekend warriors that would kick arse on the track. Track racing is also about the inclination and cost.

[PrincessBandit]

There's only three words I'd have added to it.

:msn-wink:

Except I don't have one......

[Headbanger]

It's been a long few years since I did a track ride - Do they now have cars randomly shoot across the racetrack to hone these skills?


If they do I want a crack at it....

[ital916]

Except I don't have one......

It could just be really tiny, you could be suffering from really tiny penis syndrome.

[The Stranger]

Ere! I wear shorts and a T and sand-shoes in summer! Still got all my skin after forty years of riding.



It was about then that I realised I couldn't ride for shit .

40yrs and you only just realised it. That explains a lot.

[jono035]

1st. Any person driving 75K a year is, perforce, a very skilled driver.

Wtf?? How did kms travelled automatically = skill gained... You don't just magically gain skill by repetitively repeating the same motions over and over, you do it by driving consciously, always evaluating and analysing your decisions and actions. Maybe he has done that, maybe he hasn't, neither of us know...

I've always figured that 'good driving' means different things to different people. To my mother, for instance, I would be a good driver if I took corners as they are signposted, stuck within speed limits and was generally courteous.

To my high school mates I was a good driver if I could get it off the clock along the lake straights, make it around the corner at the bottom of the big hill without lifting off and do some good rarkies on the school fields...

You are moaning about how people aren't good drivers from a safety perspective, then saying they'd be safer if they learned better bike handling skills as based on racetrack experience. Being safe on the roads (in my opinion) is more about having the skills to spot and evaluate potentially dangerous situations coupled with the right attitude and the self control to avoid stroking your ego by twisting your right hand. To be sure there is a certain amount of bike control skill thrown in there, but even a complete newbie can be safe by knowing their abilities and limits and riding to those.

The rider's skill level is only a problem when the rider exceeds it and I'm sure there are plenty of 'weekend warriors' who happily ride around within their skill levels being perfectly safe. The ones (weekend warriors or otherwise) that are out there with something to prove are going to end up being troweled off the road no matter how much 'riding skill' they think they have.

[yungatart]

It's a vexing issue.....


I guess the question is...after all this. How do we convince the average weekend warrior, dressed in flash, with the wind in his face, that without some remedial training, he's likely to end up as a statistic?

Why focus on trackdays for your 'cause'?
Where are the stats that prove doing a trackday makes you a better/safer rider.
I have never done a trackday, nor will I. I don't see how going round and round the same bit of tarmac with the only other traffic going in the same direction can improve my skills on the road. What does it do for hazard awareness, how does it help me avoid the tractor that has just pulled out of the driveway or the sheep/cows/turkeys/pukekos or children wandering on the side of the road.
Far better IMO, to throw some money at RRRS courses where you are taught actual skills that you will need to use on the road.

[sinfull]

Nup. Not an RRRS course, but an AMCC ART day. And then, during the last round, if any of your warriors can beat me around the track....on weekend warrior bikes, then yeah, I'd be prepared to pull in my head. Can i've a crack ??
I pulled my once in a blue moon speed triple, weekend warrior bike out on sunday and did route 52 through pongaroa, after doing a group ride up to Dannevirke (you know, like lap 1, T1 Manfeild, all the way up there) yeah yeah, My bad, they bad, we all bad, but didn't feel like doing that shit home again, so a few of us split and took a 2 hour detour home !

So first time on the bike in mmmm 10 weeks makes me a novice again does it not ??


This may be irrelevant, but there are many weekend warriors that would kick arse on the track. Track racing is also about the inclination and cost.Totally not irrelevant, as that is the whole point and i think Dpex should conceed this ! That though i agree track riding can and will teach some a few new tricks re apexing, braking etc, that may and could well save their life one day, It's not everyones cup of char !

A RRRS course could well do the same job as a track day perhaps more !!! Perhaps ! I wouldn't know, never done one !

[hospitalfood]

dpex, you obviously rate yourself.
pride before the fall mate............

[dpex]

Wtf?? How did kms travelled automatically = skill gained... You don't just magically gain skill by repetitively repeating the same motions over and over, you do it by driving consciously, always evaluating and analysing your decisions and actions. Maybe he has done that, maybe he hasn't, neither of us know...

I've always figured that 'good driving' means different things to different people. To my mother, for instance, I would be a good driver if I took corners as they are signposted, stuck within speed limits and was generally courteous.

To my high school mates I was a good driver if I could get it off the clock along the lake straights, make it around the corner at the bottom of the big hill without lifting off and do some good rarkies on the school fields...

You are moaning about how people aren't good drivers from a safety perspective, then saying they'd be safer if they learned better bike handling skills as based on racetrack experience. Being safe on the roads (in my opinion) is more about having the skills to spot and evaluate potentially dangerous situations coupled with the right attitude and the self control to avoid stroking your ego by twisting your right hand. To be sure there is a certain amount of bike control skill thrown in there, but even a complete newbie can be safe by knowing their abilities and limits and riding to those.

The rider's skill level is only a problem when the rider exceeds it and I'm sure there are plenty of 'weekend warriors' who happily ride around within their skill levels being perfectly safe. The ones (weekend warriors or otherwise) that are out there with something to prove are going to end up being troweled off the road no matter how much 'riding skill' they think they have.

And I used to think that Katman's various posts were the most asinine till I read yours.

Buddy, you just got voted as ass of the year.

[dpex]

dpex, you obviously rate yourself.
pride before the fall mate............

Gawd. Here we go again. Let me spell it out.

You vernacular use of 'rate' presumes you think I think I'm a hot rider. Not in the least.

I'm a competent rider, but I believe I have better-than-average awareness skills on account of I do now, and have done for years, a shit-load of daily Ks, every day.

But, moreover, I've taken the time and the resulting pain to discover the limitations of my bike and my skills, such as they are, on the track....Not on the roads.

[dpex]

Can i've a crack ??
I pulled my once in a blue moon speed triple, weekend warrior bike out on sunday and did route 52 through pongaroa, after doing a group ride up to Dannevirke (you know, like lap 1, T1 Manfeild, all the way up there) yeah yeah, My bad, they bad, we all bad, but didn't feel like doing that shit home again, so a few of us split and took a 2 hour detour home !

So first time on the bike in mmmm 10 weeks makes me a novice again does it not ??

Totally not irrelevant, as that is the whole point and i think Dpex should conceed this ! That though i agree track riding can and will teach some a few new tricks re apexing, braking etc, that may and could well save their life one day, It's not everyones cup of char !

A RRRS course could well do the same job as a track day perhaps more !!! Perhaps ! I wouldn't know, never done one !

Well hello, Hairy Sir. Xmas camping at Tongariro National Park, with a few fine trout thrown in for good measure?

And bring that old coal-burner of yours. We can so some beat-ups on the forest roads.:--)) And don't forget to bring her with the eyes. :--))

[Katman]

And I used to think that Katman's various posts were the most asinine till I read yours.



Your posts make mine look like works of sheer genius.

[dpex]

Why focus on trackdays for your 'cause'?
Where are the stats that prove doing a trackday makes you a better/safer rider.
I have never done a trackday, nor will I. I don't see how going round and round the same bit of tarmac with the only other traffic going in the same direction can improve my skills on the road. What does it do for hazard awareness, how does it help me avoid the tractor that has just pulled out of the driveway or the sheep/cows/turkeys/pukekos or children wandering on the side of the road.
Far better IMO, to throw some money at RRRS courses where you are taught actual skills that you will need to use on the road.

Why don't you just do an AMCC day and then come back and tell us how little knowledge you gained?

[boomer]

And I used to think that Katman's various posts were the most asinine till I read yours.

Buddy, you just got voted as ass of the year.

no.. you have that mantle; ALL on your own !

[dpex]

No mate - I threw that in as a equally silly statement to parallel your broad comment about 'weekend warriors' - taring all once/twice a week riders with the same sticky brush.

I'm now more concerned about your lack of suitable riding attire when on the road and your reason for justifying it.

Do you think that your track-day skills will enable you to avoid that car that just does not see you?

It's been a long few years since I did a track ride - Do they now have cars randomly shoot across the racetrack to hone these skills?

Two things in reply.

First: The best leathers, back-protector, gloves, boots and hope will not protect any rider during a tee-bone with another vehicle. Mind you, the leathers will stop most of the blood spilling onto the road.

Second: Thank you for your concern at my riding attire. Very kind, if not a little misplaced.

[phaedrus01]

Wtf?? How did kms travelled automatically = skill gained... You don't just magically gain skill by repetitively repeating the same motions over and over, you do it by driving consciously, always evaluating and analysing your decisions and actions. Maybe he has done that, maybe he hasn't, neither of us know...

I've always figured that 'good driving' means different things to different people. To my mother, for instance, I would be a good driver if I took corners as they are signposted, stuck within speed limits and was generally courteous.

To my high school mates I was a good driver if I could get it off the clock along the lake straights, make it around the corner at the bottom of the big hill without lifting off and do some good rarkies on the school fields...

You are moaning about how people aren't good drivers from a safety perspective, then saying they'd be safer if they learned better bike handling skills as based on racetrack experience. Being safe on the roads (in my opinion) is more about having the skills to spot and evaluate potentially dangerous situations coupled with the right attitude and the self control to avoid stroking your ego by twisting your right hand. To be sure there is a certain amount of bike control skill thrown in there, but even a complete newbie can be safe by knowing their abilities and limits and riding to those.

The rider's skill level is only a problem when the rider exceeds it and I'm sure there are plenty of 'weekend warriors' who happily ride around within their skill levels being perfectly safe. The ones (weekend warriors or otherwise) that are out there with something to prove are going to end up being troweled off the road no matter how much 'riding skill' they think they have.


And I used to think that Katman's various posts were the most asinine till I read yours.

Buddy, you just got voted as ass of the year.

Yeah, no I don't think so.


What old mate here said is perfectly relevant. By your rationale every taxi driver should be an expert on the road, just because they clock up the kms. Which I am sure nobody would agree with, the simple fact is "practise does not make perfect, perfect practise makes perfect." And just because you ride/drive a lot, this doesn't necessarily make you a good rider/driver.

You cannot simply generalise everybody on the amount they ride, so what if someone only chooses to take their bike out on weekend, or once a month, as long as they are comfortable with what they are doing and their limits they are a heck of a lot safer out there than some young squid on a Gixxer whose got something to prove, whether he rides daily or not.

[dpex]

I drive to work and ride every now and then, I haven't ridden my bike in anger for a long time. Sunday we did the loop with my mates from work who all commute, every day; Beyond and I were waiting at the main stops for over 20 minutes...

This weekend warrior carved up the CoroGP and left the competition for dead ...


your arguments are flawed

My, my. But ain't you a hero?

[boomer]

My, my. But ain't you a hero?


Geez. But ain't you a hero? Not.

Are you losing the plot.. u commented already :Oops:

[sinfull]

Well hello, Hairy Sir. Xmas camping at Tongariro National Park, with a few fine trout thrown in for good measure?

And bring that old coal-burner of yours. We can so some beat-ups on the forest roads.:--)) And don't forget to bring her with the eyes. :--)) Sounds bloody marvelous mate ! I will be up there after boxing night for a couple of nights with the bitches ! Which ones eyes you talking of ??
Be bringing the new coal bucket though !!

[ital916]

And I used to think that Katman's various posts were the most asinine till I read yours.

Buddy, you just got voted as ass of the year.

I would like to qutoe the cliche line involving a kettle and a pot, but either of those is too good for you.

I think something involving poo would suffice nicely.

Actually, arnie puts it much more elegantly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFl-WQAXMto&feature=related

[cowpatz]

But you have to admit it's a bit of a worry that Hon Steven Joyce has noted that motorcyclists are represented in the stats at a disproportionate rate.

Actually Steven Joyce is the worry not the statistics...he seems to be trying to take over where Helen left off. I'm sure rugby players are disproportionate users of ACC .....who gives a shit.


Secondly, I'd lay odds that the dearly departed comprise week-end warriors and newbies; mostly.


No I would say that judging by the news reports that I listen to it would have to be commuters....like yourself. Only takes a second for some prat to take you out despite all the best efforts to avoid it .....unless you have the eyes and reactions of a fly. Most "weekend warriors" as you call them don't have anything to prove ...they have probably done it long ago. They just want to ride again and enjoy it.

[PeteJ]

3 small comments:

1. The AMCC ART instructors actually do spend a lot of time discussing different lines (and similar lines) for street and track. The vast majority of participants are primarily street riders; it's pretty pointless concentrating on pure race technique.

2. The whole point about improving your machine handling skills for the road is so that your mind can be taken up with defensive riding, not struggling with your ability to handle your machine. Streets and the open road are not places to be practising basic cornering and braking skills.

3. One of the insurance brokers who has done more than one ART day described the typical motorcycle write-off in his company's clientele: a. 1000 cm3 machine +/- 250; b. ridden by a male 45 yrs old +/- 10 years; c. who has had a break from riding of several years at some time; d. and who crashed in a single-vehicle pile-up on a Sunday afternoon.

[PrincessBandit]

It could just be really tiny, you could be suffering from really tiny penis syndrome.

Matey, if I did discover I had even a really tiny one it would still be bigger than some of the little boys' on this site.

[ital916]

Matey, if I did discover I had even a really tiny one it would still be bigger than some of the little boys' on this site.

:laugh: probably....

[dpex]

Sounds bloody marvelous mate ! I will be up there after boxing night for a couple of nights with the bitches ! Which ones eyes you talking of ??
Be bringing the new coal bucket though !!

You going to do The Cemetery? Thought I might have a crack. Then off to Tongariro.....unless I get to stay in the cemetery. :--((

[dpex]

3 small comments:

1. The AMCC ART instructors actually do spend a lot of time discussing different lines (and similar lines) for street and track. The vast majority of participants are primarily street riders; it's pretty pointless concentrating on pure race technique.

2. The whole point about improving your machine handling skills for the road is so that your mind can be taken up with defensive riding, not struggling with your ability to handle your machine. Streets and the open road are not places to be practising basic cornering and braking skills.

3. One of the insurance brokers who has done more than one ART day described the typical motorcycle write-off in his company's clientele: a. 1000 cm3 machine +/- 250; b. ridden by a male 45 yrs old +/- 10 years; c. who has had a break from riding of several years at some time; d. and who crashed in a single-vehicle pile-up on a Sunday afternoon.

Yay. The voice of reason!

As you may have observed, Pete, I've been banging on about ART Days for ages, but it seems that there is some sort of wall between the words 'rider learning' and 'track'.

I have yet to get the audience to understand that an ART day is a great learn as opposed to a speedy ego-trip.

Oh well. I'll keep banging on.

[sinfull]

Matey, if I did discover I had even a really tiny one it would still be bigger than some of the little boys' on this site.
If you show me yours i'll...... (prolly pounce on it) God what happened to the innocence i once had ??/

You going to do The Cemetery? Thought I might have a crack. Then off to Tongariro.....unless I get to stay in the cemetery. :--((
I refuse to bring a shovel as well as my coal burner !!! So you'll just have to make it all the way round !!! Yeah thought i'd have a crack at it too !!!

Side note ::; ya need three stamps in ya log book to street race ! Will we see ya at round one of PMCC on the 1st nov too ?

[750duc]

I've been on a couple of track days, they generally involve more braking drills than anything and the lines that are taught are road lines as opposed to race lines and are intended to provide the best visibility while going around corners.

There seems to be confusion here between training days and the "have a go days" which do involve racing to some extent.

One would go on the training days for the same reason that firefighters train.... to improve skills in a safe environment before having to apply them in a real situation.

[jono035]

One would go on the training days for the same reason that firefighters train.... to improve skills in a safe environment before having to apply them in a real situation.

I think the point that is being made is that these training days don't train what some people (myself included) think is the biggest part of your on-road safety, i.e. your attitude, self control, cautiousness, situational awareness etc.

[750duc]

I think the point that is being made is that these training days don't train what some people (myself included) think is the biggest part of your on-road safety, i.e. your attitude, self control, cautiousness, situational awareness etc.

Once you are confident in your ability to handle your machine you can spend more time concentrating on the factors you speak of. In my opinion learning any new skills that help keep me alive on the road are time and money well spent.

[dpex]

If you show me yours i'll...... (prolly pounce on it) God what happened to the innocence i once had ??/

I refuse to bring a shovel as well as my coal burner !!! So you'll just have to make it all the way round !!! Yeah thought i'd have a crack at it too !!!

Side note ::; ya need three stamps in ya log book to street race ! Will we see ya at round one of PMCC on the 1st nov too ?

I've got the three stamps Chuppiho.

Yeah. I reckon the cemetery race would be cool. I'll elect to go in the 50CC class so I can beat'm up.:--))

[dpex]

I think the point that is being made is that these training days don't train what some people (myself included) think is the biggest part of your on-road safety, i.e. your attitude, self control, cautiousness, situational awareness etc.

Jono! What's up there as one of the biggest dangers? Surely, it's doing a corner too hot and then freaking when you realise...or perhaps better...believe you're too hot.

You have too natural reactions to this scenario. a) you front-brake and stand the bike up and simply worsen the problem, or, b) you remember that braking in a corner while cause huge shit so you choose to go wide rather than lay the bike down on account of you have no idea how far you can lay the bike down.

The Puke track is a bit like the Coro-loop (the great favourite of so many red misteds)

The idea being that when you do an ART day, and both follow and get led by a very capable line marshal, you get to learn that both you and your bike can do a hell of a lot more than you perhaps would have thought possible.

I remember following one line marshal, quite some time ago, and simply refused to accept he could get away from me....notwithstanding, we had been around and around for many circuits... When I came back to the pits I discovered I'd rubbed some alloy off the bloody crankcase, and still old Zimmer had stood up.

Later, I hung old Zimmer from the garage roof then let her lay over till the crank-case touch the floor. I as utterly amazed. I couldn't see how a bike could keep going forward at such an incredibly deep angle of lean. Yet, she did, and I learned.

This was way deeper cornering than I had ever thought possible.

And so the ART days are there for a learn...if you go there to learn.

Sure, you can go there to simply blast around, but to what point?

[The Stranger]

Jono! What's up there as one of the biggest dangers? Surely, it's doing a corner too hot and then freaking when you realise...or perhaps better...believe you're too hot.


So now with your increased knowledge and confidence you up the pace in the corners - why not, you know the bike is way more capable than you used to think it was. This time, instead of thinking you're too hot, you really are too hot.
How does this help you now?

[The Stranger]

Later, I hung old Zimmer from the garage roof then let her lay over till the crank-case touch the floor. I as utterly amazed. I couldn't see how a bike could keep going forward at such an incredibly deep angle of lean. Yet, she did, and I learned.



So how did you allow for 100kg or more of weight on the suspension?

[jono035]

Jono! What's up there as one of the biggest dangers? Surely, it's doing a corner too hot and then freaking when you realise...or perhaps better...believe you're too hot.

To me, that comes under the heading of self control and knowing your abilities!

I'm not saying that track days are useless, far from it. I really do think that the skills that they teach, however, take a back seat to simply learning to avoiding and mitigate the situations in which you will need them.

I agree with what The Stranger said, if you have the skills to go faster in the corners, you will go faster in the corners and then when you come across something out of your control (gravel, unseen pothole, cow crap etc.) the situation is going to be much worse.

Obviously this is a topic that 10 different people will have 12 different ideas though and it is always interesting hearing other perspectives...

[p.dath]

...
I'm not saying that track days are useless, far from it. I really do think that the skills that they teach, however, take a back seat to simply learning to avoiding and mitigate the situations in which you will need them.

Sure you can avoid and mitigate a lot of situations that would put you in danger, but you can't do it for all of them. Plain and simple, that's how accidents happen.


I agree with what The Stranger said, if you have the skills to go faster in the corners, you will go faster in the corners and then when you come across something out of your control (gravel, unseen pothole, cow crap etc.) the situation is going to be much worse.
...

I definitely take corners much faster than before doing extra training at track days and the like.
I also feel that if I saw an "issue" during a corner that I would stand a pretty good chance of steering around it now. Prior to the extra training I would have had trouble varying off the line I was taking. Now I can do that easily.

[Ixion]

When they hold a track day on a race track with blind corners, gravel on said corners, ditto potholes, bumps and tree roots. And opposing traffic, white lines painted on the track oil spills here and there, intersections, and farmers driving tractors onto the tracks; then I'll sign up for track days (actually, if there was such a track it would be invaluable, and I really would be keen). Oh and moss . And dead possums. And roadside doggies keen on a nice game of chasing things. And a herd of cows, plese. All of which I encountered in one afternoon's ride last weekend


Until then , as far as I can see "track days" (a shallow euphemism for "race days"), merely teach how fast one can go in ideal controlled conditions. Inevitably, the rider who has spent the day belting round a race track flat out , is going to approach a corner on the road on his way home with a "Oh, that's easy , I've just been going round corners that sharp at warp speed, whee here we go". Then realise to his horror that THIS corner has a pothole right on his line, an SUV coming toward him, and gravel along the road edge. And because he's riding to race track conditions he now has no extra left in reserve. Nowhere to go, no reserve cornering capacity (because, on a race track , you will ALWAYS be cornering at ,maximum capacity). Toast. And another statistic.

The race track is the race track, no matter how euphemistically named. And the road is the road. Confusing the two is not a good thing IMHO.



I also feel that if I saw an "issue" during a corner that I would stand a pretty good chance of steering around it now. Prior to the extra training I would have had trouble varying off the line I was taking. Now I can do that easily.


Except that you don't have any reserve traction for steering around. Because , following racing practice, you committed all of it when you went into the corner.

[p.dath]

...
Except that you don't have any reserve traction for steering around. Because , following racing practice, you committed all of it when you went into the corner.

What possibly would make you think because I have been to an advanced rider training day on a track I am now riding every corner on the road to the maximum of my abilities? It would scare me far too much to even contemplate doing that.

I don't ride anywhere near the limits of my bike on the road. I know from being on the track, where I have greatly extended my own limits, that I feel pretty comfortable with my skills on the road. Riding on the road following extra training is nearly always easier and smoother for me.

I'm 100% confident that my likelihood of becoming a statistic has been greatly reduced by attending additional advanced rider training - not increased.

[sinfull]

but to what point? Give it up ! come race me cause i've slowed down heaps !!! !

[SARGE]

WOW.. where to start??...


i guess you could pigeonhole me as a "weekend Warrior" now .. maybe a "once or twice a month warrior" now .. but i used to commute every day on Spooky ( and incidentally. i have been on some form of 2-wheeled transport since 1970-ish)

i have a company vehicle now ( truck) and long hours and family commitments stop me from riding as often as i want to but i dont consider myself ANY type of Born Again Warrior.. and yes . .i put 8-10 hours in traffic every day .. but a 6T truck is nothing like a 200 kg bike btw)


i have ridden through axle deep snow, black ice, Hurricane Andrew, 110F Arizona heat, Los Angeles traffic and mossy NZ back-roads.

i have drag raced a Vmax, (2 years) been in top gear around Daytona International Speedway (3x) and gapped the fuzz on a US Midwest interstate highway (lost count)

i have hit a deer, spun out on a roadkill raccoon and bounced off the back of a truck (most of the above in very little if any bubblewrap, including a helmet.. and everything since 1983 with no depth perception due to the fact that im missing an eye)


but i only ride my bikes a couple times a month now so you MUST be a better rider than i am ...

i'll get off your roads now ... im sorry

[jono035]

WOW.. where to start??...

That's a hell of a laundry list there, mate.

[James Deuce]

WOW.. where to start??...


i guess you could pigeonhole me as a "weekend Warrior" now .. maybe a "once or twice a month warrior" now .. but i used to commute every day on Spooky ( and incidentally. i have been on some form of 2-wheeled transport since 1970-ish)

i have a company vehicle now ( truck) and long hours and family commitments stop me from riding as often as i want to but i dont consider myself ANY type of Born Again Warrior.. and yes . .i put 8-10 hours in traffic every day .. but a 6T truck is nothing like a 200 kg bike btw)


i have ridden through axle deep snow, black ice, Hurricane Andrew, 110F Arizona heat, Los Angeles traffic and mossy NZ back-roads.

i have drag raced a Vmax, (2 years) been in top gear around Daytona International Speedway (3x) and gapped the fuzz on a US Midwest interstate highway (lost count)

i have hit a deer, spun out on a roadkill raccoon and bounced off the back of a truck (most of the above in very little if any bubblewrap, including a helmet.. and everything since 1983 with no depth perception due to the fact that im missing an eye)


but i only ride my bikes a couple times a month now so you MUST be a better rider than i am ...

i'll get off your roads now ... im sorry

I nearly said something like that, but I didn't want to look like a girl.

[Madness]

When they hold a track day on a race track with blind corners, gravel on said corners, ditto potholes, bumps and tree roots. And opposing traffic, white lines painted on the track oil spills here and there, intersections, and farmers driving tractors onto the tracks, Oh and moss And dead possums. And roadside doggies keen on a nice game of chasing things. And a herd of cows.

You forgot the "Traffic Safety" enforcement officer with a laser gun, a ticket book and three days of quota to catch up on. Bloody dangerous things they are too!

[SARGE]

That's a hell of a laundry list there, mate.

yea .. i've been further than the Bombay's too :Pokey:



I nearly said something like that, but I didn't want to look like a girl.

try cutting your hair and get rid of the Crocs man ...

[jono035]

yea .. i've been further than the Bombay's too :Pokey:

That's somewhere in India, right?

[SARGE]

That's somewhere in India, right?

was thinking South Aucks, but ive been further than India too :third:

[dpex]

The level of ego-related ignorance from some of the posts above sadden me.

Here we some who assert they can simply pick up where they left off, last weekend.

Then we have others asserting that learning to ride a bike properly, in a relatively safe environment such as the track will cause all who make the effort to simply go faster on the roads.

Then we have those who have asserted they don't need to practice or learn, or that road-craft practice, in any vehicle is not specific to bikes.

Then we have the tits who think track-days are just for speeding around.

In fact I have wondered about the balls of some of the weanies who have gone down this track ('scuse the unintended pun). They seem to shout very loud against track-days. I've come to wondering if the dill-brains are actually so confused they can't separate the likes of an AMCC ART day from a standard, give it hell, track day, and are actually quite scared they might not be able to lead the group.

Like it matters.

I can understand the weanies worrying about their (relative performance) during an open track-day, again, like it matters.

But I cannot understand how anyone can assert that learning somewhere near the limits of their bike's performance curve, on the track, could be in some way negative on the road.

Having done sundry track-days and some racing, I now know the limits of my bike. On the road I don't go anywhere near those parameters, despite, on occasion, pushing a bit.

I go out for a ride, via some road I know are nice and windy, and yeah, I push a bit. But nowhere near the levels I push on the track, so I know that dressed in my jeans, sand shoes (quite often) I'm riding well within the limits of my bike.

But I know this only because I have pushed, and pushed, and pushed, on the track. Splatted heaps of times, and thus know my bike's limits.

Do you?

The answer being, unless you've splatted, you don't know your bike's limits.

And for all those who rattle on about 'stuff' on the roads, go do a trasck-day after the burnout boys have been there. You'll be going a hell of a lot faster than on the road, and that small bit of rubber from a burn-out's tyre might get your adrenalin pumping.



Jesus H Leprechaun! All such positers deserve to be removed from the gene pool.

[Usarka]

I love posts that abuse others for being self righteous.

[Virago]

The level of ego-related ignorance from some of the posts above sadden me...

The irony in your post is delicious. A shame that it will be lost on you.

[dipshit]

Later, I hung old Zimmer from the garage roof then let her lay over till the crank-case touch the floor. I as utterly amazed. I couldn't see how a bike could keep going forward at such an incredibly deep angle of lean. Yet, she did, and I learned.

Take your hand off it.

Your bike sitting static in the garage is totally different to the load your suspension will be under through a corner.

[rosie631]

Take your hand off it.



LOL +1

10 char

[jono035]

The level of ego-related ignorance from some of the posts above sadden me.

Most of the responses have been calm and reasoned, no need to start throwing lines like that around... Basically you've just straight out called everyone who disagrees with you an ignorant ego-maniac... Eloquent.

I still think that if you are riding within your abilities then it shouldn't matter what those abilities are. If it means you have to take corners at sign-posted speeds to be safe, then so be it. Being able to corner faster and handle my bike better at speed just means that I'm more likely to be out of my depth in other areas (hazard detection and mitigation) due to less time to react and make decisions...

I am very keen to do one of these training days at some point, probably when I've upgraded to a better bike though and I can definitely see the advantage in them in terms of skill development, I just don't see how they are the panacea that they are being protrayed as.

[trumpy]

Thought I had better report back to the ABWW Safety Committee (Ageing Bikers and Weekend Warriors) about my latest activity. Yesterday I decided that this week I would actually ride my bike rather than pat it fondly each time I passed it in the garage. So I made a plan: I would ride from Taupo to Taumaranui, then up 43 for a while, hang a right through Ohura then back down to Taumaranui, the western access road and then home.

Pretty ambitious plan I thought what with all those corners and me being old an' all but I figured with perserverence, lots of coffees and plenty of places to pee (major priority when you're old) I might just "knock the bastard off".
Thus Saturday was spent in careful preparation: I washed the bike but no polishing, this had to look like a used bike. Took to my chicken strips with a bit of sandpaper (had to at least look the part at the other end) and reversed scrubbed all the scuff marks on my leathers to make them stand out a little more for that extra bit of street cred at coffee shops ("yeah mate, that was my last big off......broke my shoulder on that one way out on boondocks....yeah just left the bike there and walked the 70kms home....popped into the hospital the next day...blah..blah..blah).

Of course I would ride alone (like every self respecting adventurer). This is of course imperative so that no one can contradict you when you regale your mates with tales of your Rossi like prowess on two wheels.

Well I can now report that I made it safely home, without falling off or making anyone else fall off and I did not indulge in any "unnecessary displays of acceleration" or "sustained loss of traction" so even the boys in blue would be proud, in fact I even managed to stay close to the speed limit on the (few) straight bits (just for you Katman..:bleh:).

Did I pass muster.........?

Highlight of the day: I didn't fall off, which is great because old people don't bounce very well...

Bummer of the day: There's no coffee shop in Ohura! Actually come to think of it, there isn't much of anything in Ohura.....

Note to all: If you want to do Highway 43 (and everyone should...including old people) now is a great time to do it as the road is as good as it's going to get. Judging by the current state of the road surface, come about the end of November it's just going to be a molten mess.

[gwigs]

3 small comments:

1. The AMCC ART instructors actually do spend a lot of time discussing different lines (and similar lines) for street and track. The vast majority of participants are primarily street riders; it's pretty pointless concentrating on pure race technique.

2. The whole point about improving your machine handling skills for the road is so that your mind can be taken up with defensive riding, not struggling with your ability to handle your machine. Streets and the open road are not places to be practising basic cornering and braking skills.

3. One of the insurance brokers who has done more than one ART day described the typical motorcycle write-off in his company's clientele: a. 1000 cm3 machine +/- 250; b. ridden by a male 45 yrs old +/- 10 years; c. who has had a break from riding of several years at some time; d. and who crashed in a single-vehicle pile-up on a Sunday afternoon.

Mental note ...must not ride on Sunday afternoons....:confused:

[PrincessBandit]

Most of the responses have been calm and reasoned, no need to start throwing lines like that around... Basically you've just straight out called everyone who disagrees with you an ignorant ego-maniac... Eloquent.


I think he is well on the way to being a master-baiter.

[trumpy]

......3. One of the insurance brokers who has done more than one ART day described the typical motorcycle write-off in his company's clientele: a. 1000 cm3 machine +/- 250; b. ridden by a male 45 yrs old +/- 10 years; c. who has had a break from riding of several years at some time; d. and who crashed in a single-vehicle pile-up on a Sunday afternoon.

And your problem is?.....

[jono035]

I think he is well on the way to being a master-baiter.

Hahaha well put, I guess I should stop feeding the troll then...

[The Stranger]

I think he is well on the way to being a master-baiter.

You give him way too much credit.
This guy is and example of what happens when ADD kids get old.

You will note I didn't say gow up.

[Oscar]

The level of ego-related ignorance from some of the posts above sadden me.

Here we some who assert they can simply pick up where they left off, last weekend.

Then we have others asserting that learning to ride a bike properly, in a relatively safe environment such as the track will cause all who make the effort to simply go faster on the roads.

Then we have those who have asserted they don't need to practice or learn, or that road-craft practice, in any vehicle is not specific to bikes.

Then we have the tits who think track-days are just for speeding around.

In fact I have wondered about the balls of some of the weanies who have gone down this track ('scuse the unintended pun). They seem to shout very loud against track-days. I've come to wondering if the dill-brains are actually so confused they can't separate the likes of an AMCC ART day from a standard, give it hell, track day, and are actually quite scared they might not be able to lead the group.

Like it matters.

I can understand the weanies worrying about their (relative performance) during an open track-day, again, like it matters.

But I cannot understand how anyone can assert that learning somewhere near the limits of their bike's performance curve, on the track, could be in some way negative on the road.

Having done sundry track-days and some racing, I now know the limits of my bike. On the road I don't go anywhere near those parameters, despite, on occasion, pushing a bit.

I go out for a ride, via some road I know are nice and windy, and yeah, I push a bit. But nowhere near the levels I push on the track, so I know that dressed in my jeans, sand shoes (quite often) I'm riding well within the limits of my bike.

But I know this only because I have pushed, and pushed, and pushed, on the track. Splatted heaps of times, and thus know my bike's limits.

Do you?

The answer being, unless you've splatted, you don't know your bike's limits.

And for all those who rattle on about 'stuff' on the roads, go do a trasck-day after the burnout boys have been there. You'll be going a hell of a lot faster than on the road, and that small bit of rubber from a burn-out's tyre might get your adrenalin pumping.



Jesus H Leprechaun! All such positers deserve to be removed from the gene pool.

Jeez, I hope you aren't in advertising or promotion for a living, because you're going about this the wrong way.

What makes you think that belittling and criticising your intended participants with names like "newbie" and "weekend warrior" is an attractive and successful method of promoting your track days? If this is the best you can do by way of advertising or promotion, what are training methods like?

Ve vill make you a zafe rider or you vill be shot!

[James Deuce]

yea .. i've been further than the Bombay's too :Pokey:




try cutting your hair and get rid of the Crocs man ...

Which hair? My toenails have grown through the Crocs, so i rather think I'm stuck with them.

[cowpatz]

But I know this only because I have pushed, and pushed, and pushed, on the track. Splatted heaps of times, and thus know my bike's limits.

Do you?

The answer being, unless you've splatted, you don't know your bike's limits.



Actually here in lies the problem. For the record I am in favour of track day training but purely from a manipulative aspect.

Dpex you know your bikes limits on that bike, on that track surface, on an ideal day, at that temperature and with those tyres...that is all. Change any of those variables and you no longer know the limits.

On the track you don't get cowshit, clay, loose gravel, reverse camber, shadowed corner, chip seal, painted lines, manhole covers and cagers. Those learnt limits are as useful to you then as an ashtray.

Perhaps what the track day experience may give you is an appreciation that if you do encounter an "oh fuck situation" that you might just have the extra confidence to increase countersteer and throttle off to lean over a little further than you are comfortable with and decrease the turn radius and stay on the road (especially your part of it) or to recognise a bad line and allow for it or brake correctly.

So the track has some value with manipulative skills but not necessarily with cognitive or defensive ones. It is of value but limited value.

[scracha]

if any of your warriors can beat me around the track....on weekend warrior bikes, then yeah, I'd be prepared to pull in my head.
Oh dear oh dear oh dear. You're so out of your depth here it's embarrassing.



If I whip out my pork sword every Saturday does that make me a weekend warrior?

[sondela]

...
So the track has some value with manipulative skills but not necessarily with cognitive or defensive ones. It is of value but limited value.

To quote a bright young friend of mine.. a tripod needs all three legs to stay stable, take one away, and it falls over...

We as bikers need all the skills we can acquire, doing whatever it takes to acquire them. This is how we stay upright.
You can't dismiss any skill as being of limited value.. it's a survival tool..the more we have, the safer we become.

[gatch]

We as bikers need all the skills we can acquire, doing whatever it takes to acquire them. This is how we stay upright.
You can't dismiss any skill as being of limited value.. it's a survival tool..the more we have, the safer we become.

Right on man (apologies, ma'am:), well said.

You might never use the skills you took home with you from a track day, then again there might be that situation where something you learned going silly fast on the track has saved you from serious injury. It all helps eh.

Plus it gives real fast cats like me a chance to show you old koonts up.

BWWWWWWWWwaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahaha

[dpex]

Jesus but even I've had enough of watching these pratts giving the rest of us bikers a bad name.

I think that when it gets to the stage that one biker, minding his own business, and just tooling along, is nearly taken out in a head-on with another biker being a dick, it's kinda time to yell, 'Enough'! Isn't it?

This first fuck...yeah, as you'd expect, dressed in all the leathers. Just-so German war helmet and sunnies, sitting astride all the chrome, managed to over-cook a corner on the Riverhead Rd, for Christ's sakes!

A kid on a rocket would have a problem doing that. But this tit did.

I rolled into the corner and found him right ahead. Mouth open. 'Aaaaaaarrrrrhhhh!

Just got around him. Where he went? God knows. And I don't care.

Then I hive up behind a line of traffic on the open road. It's doing 70. Ahead are five bikes, one with an L-plate. Yup, doing 70. And all his buddies are doing 70.

Are they giving the annoyed cagers the space to pass? Oh no. We're bikers. We have as much right to be here as God!

So I click past a few cages till there's just two cages between me and the beetles. I'm kinda fascinated. One cager decides he's had enough and goes for the pass in a bad place. Around the corner comes a stream of weekend warriors.

There's Herbert out on the line, and Linly on the inside track, then Jack out wide, Bill in close, and so on; as taught (staggered line) but Herbert is about to meet the frustrated cager.

How they missed a head-on I will never know.

The 70k tits pulled into a gas station. I followed them in. Asked after who was the leader. And after some substantial 'discussions' I was told to fuck off on account of every person has the right to be on the road if they have a licence.

That they had so nearly been embroiled in yet another fatal seemed to pass them by.

The statement being, 'We didn't have an accident'.

And you just look at these people and wonder.

Have you got an answer to this?

It's not just their appalling riding, it's also that they seem unable to understand the dangers.

Bugger me!

[cowboyz]

i hear what your saying but unfortuntely.... the only people who will are the converted. I used to ride with a guy who firmly believed that if he was following the road code then he was in the right and so it didnt matter if he had a accident or caused an accident cause he was in the right. Seems crazy.

[GOONR]

.....Then I hive up behind a line of traffic on the open road. It's doing 70. Ahead are five bikes, one with an L-plate. Yup, doing 70. And all his buddies are doing 70.

Are they giving the annoyed cagers the space to pass? Oh no. We're bikers. We have as much right to be here as God!

So I click past a few cages till there's just two cages between me and the beetles. I'm kinda fascinated. One cager decides he's had enough and goes for the pass in a bad place. Around the corner comes a stream of weekend warriors.

There's Herbert out on the line, and Linly on the inside track, then Jack out wide, Bill in close, and so on; as taught (staggered line) but Herbert is about to meet the frustrated cager.

How they missed a head-on I will never know.

The 70k tits pulled into a gas station. I followed them in. Asked after who was the leader. And after some substantial 'discussions' I was told to fuck off on account of every person has the right to be on the road if they have a licence.

That they had so nearly been embroiled in yet another fatal seemed to pass them by.

The statement being, 'We didn't have an accident'.

And you just look at these people and wonder.

Have you got an answer to this?

It's not just their appalling riding, it's also that they seem unable to understand the dangers.

Bugger me!

Can't really comment on the rest of your ride but being a L plater myself I feel safer if I have more experienced riders around me whilst I learn how to ride the open road. It's a big deal for some of us, we don't want to fuck it up and end up in a hedge or worse in the bonnet of a car. Maybe his buddies took a position that gave him safety. If a car want's to overtake then they should be responsible for their actions too and pick their moments a bit better.

Legally (rightly or wrongly) L plate's are allowed on the open road but restricted to 70K. Personally I would go over the 70k if I felt that I was up to it at that particular point if not I'd back off.

[Mom]

I would like to meet the 70k warriors you describe. If only to take them some place that they can get there 70k mate up to some sort of speed.

Bikes are entitled to OWN their bit of tarmac. I dare any one to attempt to intimidate me off my portion of road. But there are better ways of getting out there than pack riding at 70 on the open road.

As far as the other biker goes...

Wankers come in all shapes and sizes, sometimes you dont have to look too far to find them really.

[cowboyz]

Can't really comment on the rest of your ride but being a L plater myself I feel safer if I have more experienced riders around me whilst I learn how to ride the open road. It's a big deal for some of us, we don't want to fuck it up and end up in a hedge or worse in the bonnet or a car. Maybe his buddies took a position that gave him safety. If a car want's to overtake then they should be responsible for their actions too and pick their moments a bit better.

Legally (rightly or wrongly) L plate's are allowed on the open road but restricted to 70K. Personally I would go over the 70k if I felt that I was up to it at that particular point if not I'd back off.

L plate riders are allowed on the openroad at 70km/hr for sure. One would think that if you choose to take a mode of transport that you are learning on and are sitting on 70km/hr then you are not in a particular hurry to get anywhere. So whats wrong with pulling to the left and letting faster vehicles past?

[GOONR]

L plate riders are allowed on the openroad at 70km/hr for sure. One would think that if you choose to take a mode of transport that you are learning on and are sitting on 70km/hr then you are not in a particular hurry to get anywhere. So whats wrong with pulling to the left and letting faster vehicles past?

I always do, I don't really care for car's right up my arse.

If you had a learner in a small group that you are looking after would you move over, maybe giving the signal to the car that It's Ok to overtake when the L plate is thinking your right behind them watching their back.

[rapid van cleef]

discussing issues like this with a group of riders,or anyone else that you have observed and follwed into a service station.....is not going to get a positive response regardless, even if they think.that after your comments, they were in the wrong. they will stand up in front of their amigos. pack mentality and the need to look and strong in front of your friends etc. owning a licence prooves only 1 thing......... that a person knows how to pass a test.it does not actually show you that someone has hazard awareness, and basic control skills.

there is a lot of people that believe the requirements for all road users to gain their license here is a joke, whether it be car or bike, or whatever. there will always be people that were put here to test us..just be grateful that you were not involved in an accident and be proud you are aware when you ride.......many people do not look through windows of the vehicles they are following to watch for hazards, through trees, round bends, looking for the tree tops/ power lines to see which direction they go.....often they follow the road. this needs to be taught and practised, non of which gets assessed on a driving course or test that i am aware of....i may be wrong.

some people will always take undue risks, and sometimes will do so, without sparing a thought for the possibilty that there may be someone coming the other way that they cant see and obviously dont expect to see another vehicle in their lane coming round a corner towards them.

you have some amazing twisty roads here in NZ............and racetracks that are cheap and easily accessable to ride on........just be careful and never stop learing

[steve_t]

If you see a group of idiots posing a danger to themselves and others and you've had a word but they've told you to fuck off, it may be worth considering *555'ing them. You might just save a life

[rapid van cleef]

whats is *555ing them mean?

[GOONR]

whats is *555ing them mean?

If you see someone driving like a cock you can call *555. I think it goes through to comms who will then ignore it for xxxxx days then send a nice letter.