So motorcycle deaths are overrepresented

[Blackbird]

Herald on line: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10598593.

The normal bland assertions without decent stats to analyse root cause. Even so, it seems to me that almost no-one in officialdom is prepared to come out and say that driving standards (skills) in the shape of situational awareness need to be raised across the board, whether it be car or bike owners. Until that's done IMHO, any other initiative will merely be window dressing.

Rant over

[Mom]

Gee we are coping some bad press at the moment, anyone noticing a pattern here. I wonder what it is all leading to?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10598593

[yungatart]

More regulation to save us from ourselves?

I agree with the comments about driver training...although they have been talking about it for eons. It would be good if they actually did something about it.

[Squiggles]

I like the last point

[Swoop]

I wonder shat it is all leading to?
That we will be crapped on from above, by the politicians?:confused:

[Mom]

That we will be crapped on from above?:confused:

I certainly hope not :laugh:

Fuxed it now.

[MSTRS]

...although those aged 15 to 24 accounted for 42.5 per cent of drink-drive offenders...
This sort of reporting fucks me off. I mean, only the other day I was reading a report on drive-drive statistics and it was stated in b+w that 'young drivers had got the message, and the problem lay with older, recidivist drivers'...
Which is it?

[James Deuce]

Neither!

Motorcycles and scooters are reaching a critical mass where they become a transport option again, and there are those who would prefer that this didn't happen, fearing a massive rise in road deaths.

Don't train people, just ban bikes.

Always remember people, that they can't see you, mostly because no one gets taught how to look for other road users in NZ.

White helmets don't help.

Reflective vests don't help.

ABS won't help.

[The Stranger]

"The results come a fortnight before the close of submissions on 61 ideas the Government is asking New Zealanders to rank for a new safety strategy in the face of failed targets to reduce road carnage."

Damn we are good. If they increase the arbitrary target from 300 to say 500 we hose in. No hand wringing required, no postulating, no conferences, no additional cost and no new laws.
Sounds much easier to me.

[ManDownUnder]

Driver education - what a novel idea. Can't be serious though surely - what good could that possibly have??? We need more stats to analyse for real policy.

What's breakdown of fatal accidents by vehicle colour? We need to identify and address issues surrounding the most dengerous ones.

I'd like the same breakdown by vehicle brand as well please, and again by makes of tire.

I'll make my submissions based on those.

[jono035]

What's breakdown of fatal accidents by vehicle colour? Just wondering which are the most dengerous ones.

Same breakdown by vehicle brand as well please, and again by makes of tire.

I'll make my suggestions based on those.

Correlation does not equal causation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation), my friend...

If all the boy racers went out and bought Pirellis because the name sounds flash and fast, then they all ended up as parts of the landscape, would you really blame the tires first?

Types and colours of car are much the same. Even if there was a clear trend showing that drivers of undercoat coloured skylines are the most likely to crash then banning that car would just mean that more house-painted black sylvias would get crashed etc.

Edit: Or did I just miss the joke completely? :shutup:

[MSTRS]

And irony was the clear loser on the day...

[Quasievil]

same old shit really, but in my view Motorcyclists are without doubt over represented in the stats, its not everyone elses fault ya know...........take some heat people.....arent most crashes single vehicle crashes?
How many riders do you know that have gone down due to riding on the road like fuckwits? I know shitloads of them and I know several that are dead due to riding like fuckwits..............put that into the big national picture and I think there is alot of merit in the report.

If we as motorcyclists want to reduce the toll on our kind, then first thing we need to do is have a look within, i.e at ourselves.............doing this would provide lower negative stats over night...... how would this be achieved, well sadly it wont and these stats will continue to pour out until the government do something drastic and unfortunetely thats likely to be inevitable

[rainman]

White helmets don't help.

Reflective vests don't help.

ABS won't help.

Damn, I'll have to go for the loud pipes then...

:laugh:

[jono035]

If we as motorcyclists want to reduce the toll on our kind, then first thing we need to do is have a look within, i.e at ourselves.............doing this would provide lower negative stats over night...... how would this be achieved, well sadly it wont and these stats will continue to pour out until the government do something drastic and unfortunetely thats likely to be inevitable

Even for the accidents that aren't technically 'our fault' then I think this still applies. We can wring our hands and complain that car drivers are all out to kill us (fair observation in my limited experience) but ultimately that is a hazard that we have to mitigate ourselves because it is unlikely to change.

[James Deuce]

Damn, I'll have to go for the loud pipes then...

:laugh:

They don't help either. They can't hear you until you've gone past and even then the noise attenuation provided by better vehicle sealing and insulation is pretty amazing.

[ynot slow]

same old shit really, but in my view Motorcyclists are without doubt over represented in the stats, its not everyone elses fault ya know...........take some heat people.....arent most crashes single vehicle crashes?
How many riders do you know that have gone down due to riding on the road like fuckwits? I know shitloads of them and I know several that are dead due to riding like fuckwits..............put that into the big national picture and I think there is alot of merit in the report.

If we as motorcyclists want to reduce the toll on our kind, then first thing we need to do is have a look within, i.e at ourselves.............doing this would provide lower negative stats over night...... how would this be achieved, well sadly it wont and these stats will continue to pour out until the government do something drastic and unfortunetely thats likely to be inevitable

You are correct,we heard a loud noise yesterday,heard the thump,wife said fuck that's close,she hopped in the car,around the corner(200mt)was a bike,rider severley injured,his brother saw the crash apparently from his place,ambo was coming.Another lady said remove his helmet,wife said no,just try to remove strap,emergency guy talking to someone with phone said no(he heard them talking)place in recovery(which they had done) .
Fire brigade arrived,ambo came but was too late,police had the doctor called,he said they all did correct thing,placed into recovery position(1 held head,1 at trunk,2 with feet)as per text book.Only reason I didn't go and told her not to was when hearing the bang,heard the sickening scrapping sound and thought fuck a bike sliding.

No other vehicle involved,just human error,or maybe mechanical fault,serious crash unit will determine,but another statistic.

[Conquiztador]

Here the ones that relate to Motorcycling in that "Safer Journeys" research that they refer to (and here the link for those who are interested in sending them their own opinion: http://www.transport.govt.nz/saferjourneys/Lists/Ranking%20initiatives/NewForm.aspx?Source=http://www.transport.govt.nz/saferjourneys/Lists/Ranking%2520initiatives/overview.aspx )

- Improve rider training and licensing regime for new motorcycle riders


- Introduce a specific programme of treatments for motorcycle black spots


- Require all new motorcycles to have anti-lock brake systems by 2015


- Introduce a differential ACC levy based on engine size (ie bikes over 600cc pay a higher ACC levy than smaller bikes)


- License moped riders and require warrant of fitness tests for mopeds


- Promote high visibility and protective clothing for motorcyclists


There are others there that clearly would affect bikers too (like speed limits, compulsory 3rd party insurance etc.) but these are the specific bike related ones.

So does not look like this is targeted at bikers.

[MarkH]

Gee we are coping some bad press at the moment, anyone noticing a pattern here. I wonder what it is all leading to?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10598593

Hmmm, read the article and noticed the lack of anything constructive. The suggestion of raising the driving age was there, but that just means the drivers without enough experience will be slightly older.

What about people having to undergo GOOD training before getting a drivers license (not just mum teaching jnr to drive)? What about advanced driving courses being mandatory for a driver to move up to a full license? Why the reluctance to have better trained drivers on our roads?

[Danae]

I like what they are planning to do with the <20 drivers.

Still...driver training is huge must, as well as motorcycle awareness. Even a few motorcycle awareness questions on the scratch n win. Ads on tv like that norwegian one (we may be small, but we aren't bugs) would probably make a huge improvement on awareness.

EDIT: Even though learner riders are riding by themselves and that is the main reason we have the BHS, I still think drivers should have to do a basic course in hazard detection and looking out for pushbikes/motorbikes/scooters etc. Motorbikes are becoming more and more popular, we need to be more widely recognised as another road user.

Before I started riding, I didn't notice bikes. But it's just like you don't notice individual cars (unless it's something out of the ordinary) combined with the fact we are smaller.

Rider error is truly a doozy...single vehicle crashes etc. Most often people riding out of their limits, I take it?

I really want to contact a tv channel and get them to put some motorcycle awareness ads...we have enough bloody 'don't drink and drive' ads by ACC.

[madbikeboy]

I like what they are planning to do with the <20 drivers.

Still...driver training is huge must, as well as motorcycle awareness. Even a few motorcycle awareness questions on the scratch n win. Ads on tv like that norwegian one (we may be small, but we aren't bugs) would probably make a huge improvement on awareness.

Cool avatar. Is that an actual likeness? If it is, you'll be safer for it on the road because that jumping orange background is eyecatching.

[The Pastor]

I went to a workshop on how to improve road saftey years ago, a few kbers on here went to it.

I put the point foward to our little group about training. Much to the disgust of the cops in our group. They told me if we train people to drive, they will drive faster and cause more accidents.

That is the thinking agaisnt driver training from the people who have a big say in how road saftey should be made better.

We're all screwed.

[mynameis]

same old shit really, but in my view Motorcyclists are without doubt over represented in the stats, its not everyone elses fault ya know...........take some heat people.....arent most crashes single vehicle crashes?
How many riders do you know that have gone down due to riding on the road like fuckwits? I know shitloads of them and I know several that are dead due to riding like fuckwits..............put that into the big national picture and I think there is alot of merit in the report.

If we as motorcyclists want to reduce the toll on our kind, then first thing we need to do is have a look within, i.e at ourselves.............doing this would provide lower negative stats over night...... how would this be achieved, well sadly it wont and these stats will continue to pour out until the government do something drastic and unfortunetely thats likely to be inevitable

+1

Go the government, 9 years of Labour just sitting on their asses has resulted in this.

Also:

Drivers can drink and drive and kill someone and all they get is just a little tap on their hands and few hours of community service for murder.

16 year olds get their restricted licences, pay the government $ sit in a classroom and accelerate their time and get full at 17. It's a licence to kill.

You can drink 4 5 6 drinks within a few hours and probably be safe to drive.

The whole system is a joke, really.

[mynameis]

I went to a workshop on how to improve road saftey years ago, a few kbers on here went to it.

I put the point foward to our little group about training. Much to the disgust of the cops in our group. They told me if we train people to drive, they will drive faster and cause more accidents.

That is the thinking agaisnt driver training from the people who have a big say in how road saftey should be made better.

We're all screwed.

Police are enforcers of the law.
MP's, lawyers are makers of the law.
Members of the public are people who put these people into power.
There's also a process where members of the public get to have their say on issues/law changes ect. Submissions.

[tomobedlam]

16 year olds get their restricted licences, pay the government $ sit in a classroom and accelerate their time and get full at 17. It's a licence to kill.
.

Fully licensed drivers at 17 is pretty scary. As far paying the government to sit in the classroom. Problem with this is it is no where near long or intensive enough

[MSTRS]

Fully licensed drivers at 17 is pretty scary. As far paying the government to sit in the classroom. Problem with this is it is no where near long or intensive enough

Bugger off. Depends on the individual.
I had a full m.c licence at 15 + 6 weeks. And so did most of my peers at the time. Nothing scary about that.
OTOH There are people who've been driving on a full licence for years that I'd be nervous about.

[Disco Dan]

Motorbikes are dangerous :blink:

Dealer told me it had lots of safety devices :blink:

[oldrider]

It's our perceived "public image" and I have to give Katman some credit here, he has campaigned ad nauseam on this issue and all "he" has got out of it has been condemnation and ridicule! (me included here)

We reap what we sow! Public "perception" is public "reality"!

You have to admit our motorcyclist image (true or false) is not good among "those who can and will, legislate against us"!

I am sure Katman would prefer to be proved wrong about this! :shifty:

[cold comfort]

The stats are certainly looking nasty even allowing for LTNZs suspect "research". As we all know from real research, its speed+incompetence (ie too fast for conditions/ability) thats the real killer when "speed' is involved. Just continually penalising (with increased Rego)those of us who try real hard not to crash (and are, for the most part, successful) the issue of driver training, is never fully addressed.

[Grubber]

same old shit really, but in my view Motorcyclists are without doubt over represented in the stats, its not everyone elses fault ya know...........take some heat people.....arent most crashes single vehicle crashes?
How many riders do you know that have gone down due to riding on the road like fuckwits? I know shitloads of them and I know several that are dead due to riding like fuckwits..............put that into the big national picture and I think there is alot of merit in the report.

If we as motorcyclists want to reduce the toll on our kind, then first thing we need to do is have a look within, i.e at ourselves.............doing this would provide lower negative stats over night...... how would this be achieved, well sadly it wont and these stats will continue to pour out until the government do something drastic and unfortunetely thats likely to be inevitable

Ditto! I have seen many riders go down after they have shot past me at 100mph. I ride reasonably quick as all of us do from time to time. The difference with me and many of my companions is that we ride within our capabilities and road conditions.Many don't and this is generally where they come unstuck.

[JMemonic]

+1
16 year olds get their restricted licences, pay the government $ sit in a classroom and accelerate their time and get full at 17. It's a licence to kill.

I had my full M/C licence at 17, didn't get my car till I was 18 or 19 neither hear nor there, its not the class of licence that's the issue, its attitude, education and distractions.

[MarkH]

Fully licensed drivers at 17 is pretty scary. As far paying the government to sit in the classroom. Problem with this is it is no where near long or intensive enough

17? I had my full car license at exactly 15yrs & 1 Month!

I 100% agree on the woefully lacking driver training. As a motorcyclist I think it would be great if all drivers were taught to stop and look PROPERLY at intersections, which doesn't mean a quick glance in each direction and go if you didn't notice something coming.


Motorbikes are dangerous :blink:

Dealer told me it had lots of safety devices :blink:

Motorbikes DO have a lot of safety devices - but of course the operator needs to know how to use them effectively.
A quick list off the top of my head:
brakes, tyres, shocks, headlight, indicators, brake light, tail light, throttle, horn. Use them wrong or fail to use them = bad. Pretty much all of them are active safety devices, motorcycles have very little in the way of passive safety devices.

[MSTRS]

Motorbikes DO have a lot of safety devices - but of course the operator needs to know how to use them effectively.
A quick list off the top of my head:
brakes, tyres, shocks, headlight, indicators, brake light, tail light, throttle, horn. Use them wrong or fail to use them = bad. Pretty much all of them are active safety devices, motorcycles have very little in the way of passive safety devices.

Actually, the only safety device on a motorcycle is the rider.

[Katman]

Actually, the only safety device on a motorcycle is the rider.

It's just a shame it malfunctions so often.

[R6_kid]

I agree completely. When I first read the article on the front page of the Harold it seems as if the stats are largely incomplete, and that once again the focus is mainly on speed as a factor whether true or not. The feeling I got is that the article had to be written in such a way that the stats did not seem as incomplete as I'm thinking they are so that a story could be made to convey the stats that they do have.

Unfortunately it doesn't take away from the fact that motorcycle deaths are actually over represented. However without going into detail and extracting the root causes then what is the point in presenting the statistics other than for pure shock value?

FWIW I actually find that 'speeding' to a certain degree is actually safer for me as I am constantly re-checking my surroundings and maintaining a level of situational awareness suitable to the speed I am doing (slightly faster than general traffic), but commuting is a whole different world compared to open-road riding, and I'm sure my gut feeling that the open road is where a lot of the single-vehicle motorcycle fatalities are occuring.

What are the chances of getting a copy of the statistics they are using?

[MisterD]

Did anyone else catch our esteemed PM on Radio Live this morning? James Coleman asked him some question about driving age and zero alcohol limits for youngsters etc and the answer was something waffly that included a long list of "stuff they're looking at"

"waffle...driving age, alcohol, cellphones...waffle...motorbikes..."

[monkeymcbean]

Neither!


Motorcycles and scooters are reaching a critical mass where they become a transport option again, and there are those who would prefer that this didn't happen, fearing a massive rise in road deaths.

Don't train people, just ban bikes.

Always remember people, that they can't see you, mostly because no one gets taught how to look for other road users in NZ.

White helmets don't help.

Reflective vests don't help.

ABS won't help.



Land transport registration records show in the early 80's was the most registered motorbikes on the road, we are no where near that figure for 2008, it would be interesting to know the accident rates for back then if it is the same percentage as now.

[James Deuce]

Land transport registration records show in the early 80's was the most registered motorbikes on the road, we are no where near that figure for 2008, it would be interesting to know the accident rates for back then if it is the same percentage as now.

I posted the figures earlier. It was carnage.

[MSTRS]

What are the chances of getting a copy of the statistics they are using?

Any set of stats, from any source, saying whatever....and a pair of scissors, to make what you have say what you want.

[Ixion]

The claim that "speeding" is the "killer" is simplistic and misleading (and obviously following the Police party line).

MoTs own CAS data show that the leading cause of crashes is Poor Observation. Followed by Failure to Give Way, Other, Poor handling, with Too Fast in fifth place.

The ranking for social cost of crashes (which weights for seriousness of crash) shows Observation in number one place again, followed by Poor Handling , and Too Fast in third place.

These are the figures taken from the CAS (Crash Analysis System), which records and analyses all crash data from Police and other sources.

No prizes for guessing which category of road user is the one "Not Observed"

[Blackbird]

Not that I'm naive enough to expect a positive outcome but I actually dashed off an email to Steven Joyce this morning, simply because by doing nothing, nothing will change.

It's not a literary masterpiece or anything, but I feel marginally better for having written it. Here it is:

Dear Minister,

With respect to recent reports on traffic accidents and particularly to motorcyclists; I make a heartfelt plea not to follow past governments in simply trying to solve the issue by legislation i.e., increasing punitive measures such as heavier penalties for wrongdoing or trying to drive motorcycles off the road by increasing road user charges etc. Whilst this type of “solution” may have short term effects, they do not address the root cause of poor driving skills, particularly situational awareness.

Not long after I returned to motorcycling at 40 years of age (I’m 61 now), I put myself through an advanced riding course as it was clear that my skills were inadequate to cope with modern motorcycles and their interaction with other forms of traffic. The course was a revelation and not only have my motorcycle skills improved, but I’m a far better car driver too. Many of the skills taught on the advanced course ought to be taught at licence acquisition level. They would not be expensive to incorporate and would have a major impact on skill levels. I’m perhaps overstating the case but it’s my impression that car drivers generally think that once a license has been acquired, they are set for life where the many motorcyclists believe that you never stop learning. I’m still learning new skills and will never stop. I’m a member of the Kiwi Biker website and a number of experienced members in different regions of the country have made themselves available to mentor younger riders, particularly to raise their situational awareness skills. This process has no official sanction, it is simply undertaken out of concern for less experienced road users. I only wish that raising skills could be done for all road users at a national level as that’s likely to be the only approach which has a significant and lasting impact on our national road statistics.

Before I sign off, I’d like to draw your attention to a short video produced by the highways Agency in the UK: http://www.public.tv/channel.php?group=4EW9-3P8K-9MF4-C6GO-YVU5 . It follows an advanced motorcyclist on a ride with him keeping up a running commentary on what he’s doing, what potential hazards he sees and what action he is taking to mitigate them. Those observational skills are what all drivers should be taught!

With very best wishes,

Geoffrey James,

Coromandel Town

[mynameis]

Fully licensed drivers at 17 is pretty scary. As far paying the government to sit in the classroom. Problem with this is it is no where near long or intensive enough

It's a one day picnic which just costs a lot of money.


Bugger off. Depends on the individual.
I had a full m.c licence at 15 + 6 weeks. And so did most of my peers at the time. Nothing scary about that.
OTOH There are people who've been driving on a full licence for years that I'd be nervous about.

That was 30 years ago :clap: :lol:



I had my full M/C licence at 17, didn't get my car till I was 18 or 19 neither hear nor there, its not the class of licence that's the issue, its attitude, education and distractions.

Who's saying class is the only issue?

I am talking about 16-24 representing 50% of the deaths on our roads and the ability of a 17 year old to obtain full licence at that age.

[Brian d marge]

simply because by doing nothing, nothing will change.




good letter , took only a few min ,,,, I wish everyone would do such a thing

I am not sure aout Emails though

letters are still free mail to the gov

Print , stuff. Send?

Stephen

[Grahameeboy]

Speed is not the main factor in isolation,however, bikes are a lot faster and handle better...tyres are better...what this means...I reckon...is a bit like when the first 4WD Audi Quatro came out...drivers thought they could go faster around bends...we had a lot of claims for Audi's not managing bends.Training, education is not any better...yet we are riding faster bikes with a lot of go faster accessories...slip ons, Power Commanders etc etc.Maybe we have to realise that we are not all equiped to ride these bikes...but for no deposit 4.9% over 5 years the new R1 is available for $107 a week...Some manufactures like, TVR...well they used to...made you do a course before letting you take car away...

[MSTRS]

That was 30 years ago :clap: :lol:

So? I had a full car licence at just on 16. Needed a car for girlfriend-purposes, after I got sprung pillioning daddy's precious (if he only knew :shifty:)
But I couldn't go to the pub until I was 20. Go figure.

[Ixion]

OK It's a blatent lie. Based on MoTs own published stats (http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/MOT_Motor%20vehicle%20crashes%202008_Full%20versio n.pdf)for 2008

Check page 48 , which shows "Probable cause of crashes " (fatality and injury).

Yes, "Too fast for conditions " (note that this is NOT the same as 'Speeding' those vehicles might all have been within the speed limit, and a significant proportion certainly will be) is shown as 34% as per the Herald article. But that's only SECOND place , behind "Lost control" (40%).

And for all crashes , including injury, "Too fast for conditions" (15%) only scrapes into fifth place. Behind 'Failed to give way' (24%) , 'Lost control' (23%), Inattention (21%) , and 'Did not see other party' (20%).

No prizes for guessing who usually gets skittled in the 'Failed to give way', Inattention, and "SMIDSY" crashes.

And those MoT figures come from the CAS system, which reflects the police assignment of cause.

Since the Police crash investigations are not centred around finding the actual cause (like air accident investigations) , but rather around finding something to give someone a ticket for, one may reasonably expect that speeding would be overrepresented anyway.

[The Stranger]

Unfortunately it doesn't take away from the fact that motorcycle deaths are actually over represented.



Sure the stats aren't pretty, but at what point do they get off saving me from myself? Yes it's a risk (riding a motorcycle), but it's mine to take, fuck off and leave me to it.
Now if I'm killing others, well they got a right to save them from me.

I would like to see stats for how many innocents were taken out by a motorcyclst and compare that to cars.

Despite their conjuring and smoke and mirrors accounting system a death has no monetary value, neither does a life. If a life has monetary value, how come China doesn't have the highest standard of living? Were it so simple the govt would be encouraging us to procreate furiously. Even in death there is a monetary silver lining - undertakers need work too.
They can't use that as justification for meddling in my life.

Fuck off and leave me to kill myself however I damn well please!

[Matt Bleck]

I wonder if single vehcile accidents may be caused in part by the fact that we have shit road surface/conditions?

[Blackbird]

I wonder if single vehcile accidents may be caused in part by the fact that we have shit road surface/conditions?

And equally shit forward observation skills?:innocent:

[YellowDog]

Herald on line: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10598593.

The normal bland assertions without decent stats to analyse root cause. Even so, it seems to me that almost no-one in officialdom is prepared to come out and say that driving standards (skills) in the shape of situational awareness need to be raised across the board, whether it be car or bike owners. Until that's done IMHO, any other initiative will merely be window dressing.

Rant over
Yes I do agree. All we seem to get is constant moaning and no understanding of the problem or what to do about it.

Just saying that the problem is 'SPEED' is not enough.

Stopping a motorcyclist doing 120mph on a straight piece of road with no other traffic around is not addressing the problem.

A motorcyclist doing 50kph around an unmarked tight blind bend is not illegal however it is far more likely to result in a serious injury. I'm thinking about the guy on a motorbike I had to avoid killing on the Paremoremo road last week. The bend was too tight and he had to drift into my lane by so far that he almost left the road. I swung my car into his lane to aviod the collision.

I do wish that the authorities would put some effort into identifying what it is that causes accidents and then do something about it.

When a motorcyclist is murdered by an ignorant or drunken car driver, why does this impact negatively on motorcyclists? It happens a lot.

[Katman]

Based on MoTs own published stats (http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/MOT_Motor%20vehicle%20crashes%202008_Full%20versio n.pdf)for 2008

Check page 48 , which shows "Probable cause of crashes " (fatality and injury).



Can't open the link for some reason but do those figures include all motor vehicle accidents? If so, I'd be more interested how 'too fast for the conditions' ranks for 'motorcycle only' accidents.




Fuck off and leave me to kill myself however I damn well please!

If the rest of us didn't have to suffer the backlash of that happening, I might be prepared to agree with you.

[MarkH]

Not that I'm naive enough to expect a positive outcome but I actually dashed off an email to Steven Joyce this morning, simply because by doing nothing, nothing will change.

Good on you for taking the time to put your voice (so to speak) forward. I would say one thing about the cost of better driver training for new drivers - tough! It isn't like it costs close to as much here as it does in Germany.

I think if a teenager wants a drivers license then he/she should just put up with the cost of some decent quality courses that teach useful things to help keep everyone on the road a bit safer.

[tomobedlam]

Bugger off. Depends on the individual.
I had a full m.c licence at 15 + 6 weeks. And so did most of my peers at the time. Nothing scary about that.
OTOH There are people who've been driving on a full licence for years that I'd be nervous about.

Ok so what system and series of test do you propose to use to test the individual at 15 to see if they have they should have a full licence.

The reason I say that a 17 year old with a full licence (car or motorcycle) is scary is that frontal lobe of the brain is not fully developed until the early twenties. This is the part of the brain that helps you decide whether or not you should see how fast your new nsr250 can go down a suburban street or whether you should drive you and your car load of friends over the center of the roundabout instead of around it. Hence why insurance gets a bit cheaper when you turn 25. That said driver education can help with this, especially stuff that focuses on risk management, hazard identification and eye scanning (where you are looking). Teaching vehicle control by itself increases risk as people think they are better drivers and drive faster.

[MSTRS]

I don't disagree with what you say. Just that no matter what age you place on eligibility for doing anything, some will measure up and some won't. It's always been that way, and I see nothing to make me think different of today's youth.
Training is good, but you'll still only make a small difference, because rider/driver behaviour can so often be a mood-thing.

[PirateJafa]

Can't open the link for some reason but do those figures include all motor vehicle accidents? If so, I'd be more interested how 'too fast for the conditions' ranks for 'motorcycle only' accidents.

You'll need to save it and open with Adobe Reader.

Here's the injury stats though. Pity that they didn't provide the same analysis for each group of road users as the did for the sum total.

<img src="http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/3783/statsrp.jpg">

[Waxxa]

a couple of comments...

the Labour Govt. made a target of 300 road deaths per year and it seems the National Govt. is going with this target as well.

Problem: population is growing=more vehciles on the road (average 2 or more vehicles per household)=more accidents, more fatalites. The Govt needs to revise this figure to a percentage of carnage equating to the increased vehciles on the road (so instead of sticking to the 300 target, you have say 5% as a target) and be realistic about future growth on our roads.

Motorcyclists are over represented at the moment because of all the 'Weekend Wannabe Bikers' that may have had a full bike license for '20+' years but have now come back to bikes which outperform the machines that they rode back '20+' years ago and within weeks or months have an accident, get injured or killed. And there are recent posts on KB stating exactly this scenario from those riders that have crashed themselves...and you know who you are.

Possible solution: re-license (if you haven't ridden for say 3years) , cc restriction for a time period.

As a road using 'group' we must also take our share of personal responsibility in the way we ride as individuals too in that we ride within our selves and machine capabilities and if you have a pillion along, well, now you have someone elses' life in your hands and to keep that in mind.

[Quasievil]

Motorcyclists are over represented at the moment because of all the 'Weekend Wannabe Bikers' that may have had a full bike license for '20+' years but have now come back to bikes which outperform the machines that they rode back '20+' years ago and within weeks or months have an accident, get injured or killed. And there are recent posts on KB stating exactly this scenario from those riders that have crashed themselves...and you know who you are.



My 1972 tc100 had a throttle that you could hold open or close, the speed changed accordingly, Im fairly sure this concept still exists on modern bikes (certainly mine it does), how would re licensing someone with a brain change this.

[Katman]

You'll need to save it and open with Adobe Reader.



Still can't open it for some reason but...........

If those stats are for all motor vehicle accidents can we assume that Ixion is just putting his (or should I say BRONZ's) particular 'head in the sand' spin on things?

[monkeymcbean]

Sure the stats aren't pretty, but at what point do they get off saving me from myself? Yes it's a risk (riding a motorcycle), but it's mine to take, fuck off and leave me to it.
Now if I'm killing others, well they got a right to save them from me.

I would like to see stats for how many innocents were taken out by a motorcyclst and compare that to cars.

Despite their conjuring and smoke and mirrors accounting system a death has no monetary value, neither does a life. If a life has monetary value, how come China doesn't have the highest standard of living? Were it so simple the govt would be encouraging us to procreate furiously. Even in death there is a monetary silver lining - undertakers need work too.
They can't use that as justification for meddling in my life.

Fuck off and leave me to kill myself however I damn well please!


As a doctor quoted to me, some people smoke for pleasure, some people ride motorbikes.....this satisfied me no end.
Im sure it could be said for people who are over weight and have heart issues etc etc.

[Ixion]

Pity that they didn't provide the same analysis for each group of road users as the did for the sum total.



They did .

[yungatart]

I suspect that motorcycle deaths will continue to be overrepresented in tha stats until motorcyclists stop looking for someone else to blame for their accidents.
Even if you are hit by a careless cager who didn't see you, in a very large percentage of cases, there is probably something you could have done to avoid the accident.
It is okay to be in 'the right', just don't choose to be dead/injured as a result.
Sometimes it is more prudent to let them get away with blatant law breaking, lack of common sense, lack of consideration etc etc...at least you can get to go home and have a rant about it.

[ukusa]

a couple of comments...

the Labour Govt. made a target of 300 road deaths per year and it seems the National Govt. is going with this target as well.

Problem: population is growing=more vehciles on the road (average 2 or more vehicles per household)=more accidents, more fatalites. The Govt needs to revise this figure to a percentage of carnage equating to the increased vehciles on the road (so instead of sticking to the 300 target, you have say 5% as a target) and be realistic about future growth on our roads.

increases in vehicles on our roads are huge. These are not a result solely from population increases (immigration/baby booms), but also from several other current circumstances. ie. fuel costs & housing booms.

New motorcycle registration numbers (mopeds/scooters included) for the last 5 years have almost tripled that of the 5 years prior to that. The under 61ccmoped/scooter under class for example has grown 1000% in that period (611 in 1998, 6622 in 2008). This massive increase can probably be put down to one thing, petrol prices.

For larger bikes, I would hazard a guess at saying the boom is in relation to mortgage equity, from the property boom of the early to mid 2000's.

With huge increase like these, 50 motorcycle deaths (which in all truth is 50 too many) is probably not overly high for the number of bikes on the road these days. Let's face it, accidents occur, the road toll will never be zero.

[mynameis]

So? I had a full car licence at just on 16. Needed a car for girlfriend-purposes, after I got sprung pillioning daddy's precious (if he only knew :shifty:)
But I couldn't go to the pub until I was 20. Go figure.

Still an old geezer though :clap:

Wait till the Mrs reads this :spanking:

:rofl:

[The Stranger]

If the rest of us didn't have to suffer the backlash of that happening, I might be prepared to agree with you.

What backlash?

[BMWST?]

a statistic i heard yesterdasy was we are 3 per cent of the road population yet 15(or was it 17) percent of ACC budget

[The Stranger]

I suspect that motorcycle deaths will continue to be overrepresented in tha stats until motorcyclists stop looking for someone else to blame for their accidents.


Sorry, that won't stop it.

Humans are human - THEY MAKE MISTAKES! that's what we do, and by christ we are good at it.
Plus they seek thrill and excitement - add that to mistakes and this is going to continue for a long while to come.

[monkeymcbean]

Sorry, that won't stop it.


Humans are human - THEY MAKE MISTAKES! that's what we do, and by christ we are good at it.
Plus they seek thrill and excitement - add that to mistakes and this is going to continue for a long while to come.


I think it will go along way to make a difference, by taking responsibility for one self, and stop always blaming others, I hardly ever hear someone say 'it was my fault' always the cagers...blah blah blah, now that is another human trait...always has to point the finger at someone else.

[ukusa]

and stop always blaming others, I hardly ever hear someone say 'it was my fault' always the cagers...blah blah blah, now that is another human trait...always has to point the finger at someone else.

I blame the lamp posts

[MSTRS]

Wait till the Mrs reads this



Or girlfriend's father...
My point is that the driving age has been 15 since Adam was a cowboy. What, really, has changed to make that age unsuitable now? A change that requires lifting that age, when so many other (age-restricted) things have had a reduction in age.

[The Stranger]

I think it will go along way to make a difference, by taking responsibility for one self, and stop always blaming others, I hardly ever hear someone say 'it was my fault' always the cagers...blah blah blah, now that is another human trait...always has to point the finger at someone else.


Interesting concept, so how many MV accidents are NOT the result of human error, but the result of failure to accept responsibilty for a previous accident?

[The Stranger]

I blame the lamp posts

May as well, your logic is about as sound as mcbeans.

[MarkH]

a statistic i heard yesterdasy was we are 3 per cent of the road population yet 15(or was it 17) percent of ACC budget

3% of total registered vehicles on the road, or 3% of kms travelled are by bike or something else?

[ManDownUnder]

What backlash?

wwwwhhhhiiii*PPPPIIISSSSSSHHHHHHHH* <<== that one


Sometimes it is more prudent to let them get away with blatant law breaking, lack of common sense, lack of consideration etc etc...at least you can get to go home and have a rant about it.

And therein lies a key to it. If I had to put money on "Laws of the land vs. Laws of Physics"... Physics gets my vote every time!

I forget who said we should check egos at the door when you hit the road, but it's very true. (sorry - that should be "... check ego's at the door..." just for Hitcher and Skyrider)

[MSTRS]

At the risk of getting a greenie from Katman, I'm gonna say that the blame game is perfect for focussing on any/everything, except our own behaviour. If it's always the fault of someone/thing else, then we have no need to change the way we ride.
Now, that said, there are very few of us that having had a fright are not more aware of the circumstances that lead to that fright, and adjust to avoid a repeat. It's not like we are stupid. However, sadly some never get the chance to learn from such a situation. Or become complacent and 'fail' the refresher course (of such a fright).
TeStranger is right insofaras we are human, will make mistakes, and some of us will die because we missed our, or someone else's, mistake. Which is a mistake in itself, and which I understand others as saying.

[PrincessBandit]

I blame the lamp posts

yep, and the trees, and the fences, and the kerbs.....

[Blackbird]

Interesting concept, so how many MV accidents are NOT the result of human error, but the result of failure to accept responsibilty for a previous accident?

I think we're in danger of getting off track because of semantics. Failure to learn is probably a better way of putting it, irrespective of what spin you want to put on it.

[monkeymcbean]

Interesting concept, so how many MV accidents are NOT the result of human error, but the result of failure to accept responsibilty for a previous accident?

I can see where your comming from, in that someone has to be the cause if it is a two MV accident, but im saying if you can go along way to avoid the two MV accident if you are driving to conditions, ability, speed for ability, defensive driving, not expecting someone to look out for you, position yourself to be seen and a speed at which to be seen by other vehicle users.

Its alot, and a big ask, and like you said we all make mistakes me included, but i think by admitting in your mind i have to be responsible for myself goes along way to the way you ride.

Hey, but on this site, compared to alot of other riders that can ride at speed, I would be considered a bit of a 'nana' :baby: and im okay with that, as long as no one gives me a hard time!:bash:

[ManDownUnder]

I blame breathing. I heard that 100% of motorists had drawn breath in the 5 minute period prior to a fatal accident.

Conclusive proof it's not training or skill at all!

[ukusa]

My point is that the driving age has been 15 since Adam was a cowboy. What, really, has changed to make that age unsuitable now? A change that requires lifting that age, when so many other (age-restricted) things have had a reduction in age.

I don't really think it's an age thing. The road toll itself has I think halved over the last 30 years or so. Safety & new technology is a big factor in that, particularly for cars;

ABS, been around for a while now
ESC, cars only (it's called balance & skill on bikes)
Airbags (front, side, curtain, roof ... you name it, may as well drive in a bag)
side torsion beams
Roof structure
Bumpers
Crumple zones
Firewalls
Better suspension/handling/tyres
etc etc etc

You can get hit in a car, and most of the time you will survive without serious injury.

For bikes it's a bit more sparse ...
ABS - it's available on some at a cost
helmets are the same (although there are some worse than others)
Leathers are still leathers, available with or without armour.
Gloves
Boots

the road is just as hard when you fall on it. A crash on a bike is more dangerous/life threatening, and with an increasing number on the road it would only seam natural that bike riders make up an increasingly larger % of deaths on the roads.
Cars are safer, and when you compare them to cars of 30 years ago, they are like fortresses surrounded in bubble wrap.
Bikes on the other hand are still bikes, a little bit faster maybe, but still open & free from bubble wrap & cotton wool, just the way I like them.

[MarkH]

Now, that said, there are very few of us that having had a fright are not more aware of the circumstances that lead to that fright, and adjust to avoid a repeat.

I know what you mean, I ride like a complete nana in the wet due to some scary moments when I was a young rider (including 2 offs). In one case I could have been killed, but luckily wasn't - if I had been then I would have joined the category of riders that didn't get to learn from a mistake. Someone else could easily make less mistakes than me, but be unlucky and become a statistic.

[PrincessBandit]

Not to mention the fact that the "safer" vehicles are manufactured the more leeway it gives to idiots to rely on that safety. Cars might be able to withstand a whole lot more than they used to but for some that only means permission to push those boundaries even more. Unfortunately there is often another motorist in their vicinity when they do it. When they then lose control of their vehicle it's often someone else who was minding their own business who is on the receiving end.

[Katman]

What backlash?

Sorry, I thought that was what this thread was about.

:blink:

[mynameis]

Or girlfriend's father...
My point is that the driving age has been 15 since Adam was a cowboy. What, really, has changed to make that age unsuitable now? A change that requires lifting that age, when so many other (age-restricted) things have had a reduction in age.

Yes and yes kind Sir, becoz of yuuf of 2day.

They seem to leave it late to take on some responsibility. I do like the Australian approach.

[MSTRS]

I don't really think it's an age thing. The road toll itself has I think halved over the last 30 years or so. Safety & new technology is a big factor in that, particularly for cars;


Bikes on the other hand are still bikes, a little bit faster maybe, but still open & free from bubble wrap & cotton wool, just the way I like them.

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say...
Cars are now OK for 12 year olds to drive, but bikes are best left until one is really mature - like 65??

[MSTRS]

Yes and yes kind Sir, becoz of yuuf of 2day.

They seem to leave it late to take on some responsibility. I do like the Australian approach.

Perhaps we'd be better going back to 30%+ deposits...
Attitudes have a lot to do with making (or not) responsible choices, but so does access.

[McJim]

All they need to do is make the tests meaningful. the current system of "buy 24 packets of chips and get a drivers licence" is what is to blame. Passing motor vehicle tests in New Zealand is just too easy.

[The Stranger]

I think we're in danger of getting off track because of semantics. Failure to learn is probably a better way of putting it, irrespective of what spin you want to put on it.


Failure to learn - from a previous accident?
How many have the same accident twice? I'm sorry, I'm still not seeing where you guys are getting your numbers from.

[The Stranger]

Sorry, I thought that was what this thread was about.

:blink:

That's as bad as Patrick's argument that the law should be obeyed because it is the law.

Busy bodies shouldn't be obeyed because they are busy bodies. They should be told to take a hike.

I realise that busy bodies make laws.
Now see Patrick's argument.

[dpex]

"The results come a fortnight before the close of submissions on 61 ideas the Government is asking New Zealanders to rank for a new safety strategy in the face of failed targets to reduce road carnage."

Damn we are good. If they increase the arbitrary target from 300 to say 500 we hose in. No hand wringing required, no postulating, no conferences, no additional cost and no new laws.
Sounds much easier to me.

StrangerMe for Minister of Transport.

You hit it exactly.

[dpex]

All they need to do is make the tests meaningful. the current system of "buy 24 packets of chips and get a drivers licence" is what is to blame. Passing motor vehicle tests in New Zealand is just too easy.

I agree. Make the bastards do a hundred track-days, then force them to ride their road bikes cross country...over the Southern alps, I reckon, Then force the bastards to drive their bikes out of the back of a Hercules, at 10,000 ft , pop the parachute, then land the bike, in first gear, revs up to red-line, aiming at a brick wall, then make a movie out of it.....Let's call it Tripple X.

[James Deuce]

Track days do not produce better road riders.

[rocketman1]

So sad to hear so many bikers are dying.
I believe nothing will change, even in 10 years time.
Bikers will be bikers. Im not being negative, just realistic.

Bikers are there own worst enemies, I have to agree.
There are not many bikers that do not want to pass car doing 100km hr

I have not met one yet. If the car is doing 110 /120+ the biker will still pass it.

Bikers cannot admit that they are not fast, cool, and slow, it just aint right.

You also have to keep up with faster bikers, even though you are not really capable or feel safe doing so. Admit it, you cant lose face can you. Even if it costs you your life.

You cannot change human nature, even if you try for 10 years, 100 years, you cannot admit that your bike, your horse, your steel horse, part of you, the bike that you love, is inferior to the dudes bike in front that you are trying to keep up with.Admit it, Dont ever back down and think about your mates family, etc that are going to miss you when you die, or look after you in a wheel chair. Na dont back down, try to catch up, even if you have to go fast through intersections, and push it hard into the corners, you'll catch up with him....When he visits you in hospital.


You'll be right! Mate Dont back down, your bike is better than his and you are a better rider.

There are not many exceptions to this rule!!!

Yeah Right- Human Nature

[ynot slow]

Rocketman1 you are true,Friday I was running late,was passing a couple of cars and saw 130km,stayed that speed(didn't think I was going that quick)for 5 minutes,caught up with a couple of cars,the prelude in front pulled out to pass although a car was coming,waited then passed,was happy to sit behind at 120-130km for at least 15-20km,no need to pass.Made up some time as well.I'm happy to sit in behind at any speed I feel comfortable with,don't see the sense being in the lead doing 140km just to be in front of a car which is doing 130km.

[MarkH]

What pisses me off is that the cause of the problem generally doesn't get addressed.

e.g.
A biker riding in a 100kph comes into a 45kph corner at 85kph, there is some pea metal partway through and the bike goes down, the rider slides into something solid (tree/post/power pole/whatever) and dies. This is sad and most of us would wish it hadn't happened, even if we don't know the rider personally.
The cause is deemed to be excessive speed. So then the Police attempt to solve the problem by putting a speed camera on a long straight road where bikers and car drivers often exceed the limit.
This does nothing to reduce deaths and so the government consider raising the fines or increasing the demerit points. This will also do nothing to solve the problem.

Why is so little done about the appalling road surfaces (pea metal, tar snakes, etc) around the country?
Why isn't more done to teach riders about the dangers of pushing the boundaries too far and not allowing enough leeway for unexpected things on tight corners like pea metal/tar snakes/diesel/cow dung/potholes/etc?
Why is it that fining drivers is the be all and end all of policing on NZ roads?
Why aren't they trying to help motorcyclists to stay alive instead of trying to punish them for being motorcyclists?


It also occurs to me that many think that more legislation for motorcycle riders is in order. I don't like that thinking and I don't think it is fair. More people are killed or injured during DIY around the house and there is sod all regulation for them. More people are killed or injured during sports & leisure activites with fuck all regulation there either. More people are killed smoking cigarettes but they are for sale in supermarkets, dairies & service stations all over the country - with no license required to purchase them. So why is it that the motorcycle riders are the ones that need more legislation?

[Squiggles]

Hope you're all making submissions... the link is back on page 2: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129416643&postcount=18

[madmartin]

I posted the figures earlier. It was carnage.

hmmm my 80's xj turbo had all the power and none of the handling, stands to reason really.

[Brian d marge]

Hope you're all making submissions... the link is back on page 2: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129416643&postcount=18

Filled mine in

Stephen

[Blackbird]

Failure to learn - from a previous accident?
How many have the same accident twice? I'm sorry, I'm still not seeing where you guys are getting your numbers from.

What I was getting at Noel is that a big chunk of the motoring public suffer from what trainers would call "Unconscious Incompetence" i.e. They don't know what they don't know because the current level of driver training is so low. Throw some better quality training in and there's a fighting chance that the penny will drop.

I could bang on all day about it but hope that gives the gist of my thoughts.

[vifferman]

They don't know what they don't know because the current level of driver training is so low. Throw some better quality training in and there's a fighting chance that the penny will drop.
They could replace the current propaganda that supposedly comprises the "education" portion of the "Three E's" with some quality information: how to use flush medians; safe following distances;, being passed doesn't impugn your manhood; amber traffic lights mean "Stop!" not "Accelerate!"; how to handle a skid; courtesy and consideration; when do you have to stop at a pedestrian crossing; safe passing procedures; maintaining vehicle condition for safety; look out for bikes; etc etc.
I think it's obvious by now: no-one's bought the propaganda that "Speed Kills" and if you do 108km/h you're going to crash. It's alos obvious from the large number of tickets issued that a more intelligent approach is needed that just punishing all the killers (seems to be almost all of us!) that regularly exceed the (sometimes ridiculous) speed limits.

[MSTRS]

Why aren't they trying to help motorcyclists to stay alive instead of trying to punish them for being motorcyclists?



2 reasons...
1. 'They' have no idea what it means to be a motorcyclist. And Phil Goff doesn't count.
2. Money. Get some from someone being 'naughty' - or spend some to save him from himself? No contest.

[Katman]

2. Money. Get some from someone being 'naughty' - or spend some to save him from himself? No contest.

And why is that?

My guess is that it's because the highly visible percentage of irresponsible motorcyclists have led them to the belief that we're not worth spending money on.

[MSTRS]

And why is that?

My guess is that it's because the highly visible percentage of irresponsible motorcyclists have led them to the belief that we're not worth spending money on.

More likely that the highly skilled and restrained majority keep the death toll just a little under the watershed for actually doing something about the road conditions.

[Katman]

More likely that the highly skilled and restrained majority keep the death toll just a little under the watershed for actually doing something about the road conditions.

Still in Lah-Lah land then John?

Are you suggesting that they "do something about the road conditions" so it's safer for us to go faster?

[MSTRS]

Heard so much about that place from you, that I thought I'd pop my head in to see what was so great about it.
I'm right tho. If a particular corner (say) claims a lot of lives, it generally gets something done to it. Nobody ever looks at the repeats of that corner all over the country. So, unless motorcyclists kill themselves (and frequently) on every similar corner, only the one with the 'problem' gets fixed. Nothing la-la about that...it's fact.
Edit: And no, I'm not talking about fixing so we can go faster. There are certain commonalities to be found in a variety of crashes, some of which are road conditions. Poor surface, for instance. Yes, there are other factors too, but a decent surface would avoid one of the critical factors.

[Katman]

I think you'll find that the general public believes that motorcyclists should be constrained by the same set of rules that govern the whole of our society.

Until motorcyclists are seen as a whole to be recognising that fact we don't stand a shit show of getting anything changed.

[The Stranger]

What I was getting at Noel is that a big chunk of the motoring public suffer from what trainers would call "Unconscious Incompetence" i.e. They don't know what they don't know because the current level of driver training is so low. Throw some better quality training in and there's a fighting chance that the penny will drop.

I could bang on all day about it but hope that gives the gist of my thoughts.

You're preaching to the converted here. I have spent long enough at RRRS to see it a hundred times.
That's education though, not as per the original thought of failing to accept responsibility for, or failing to learn from an accident. Few don't play over the events in thier minds and wonder what could have, should have been done.

That said, I wouldn't bother to reply but for a point you do raise.
We see it time and again at RRRS the "alpha" males turn up and do the course, not because they want or need any assistance, but because their partner or mates need it - not them.

When they turn up in this frame of mind it takes about half to three quarters of a day for the penny to drop that actually there are some things they didn't know, when the reality is we can see there was much they didn't know from the start - only they didn't know that.
Somehow I doubt they would start learning ever again if not for the controlled environment and concerted effort.

[MarkH]

Are you suggesting that they "do something about the road conditions" so it's safer for us to go faster?

Far better to leave the loose gravel on the apex of a corner so most will ride with caution and some will die? :weird:
It is an interesting idea, but I think I would rather see the roads improved.

[MarkH]

I still think an idea that I put forward on these forums a while back has much merit:
When someone has been naughty and loses their license due to too many demerit points there should be a course they could do that is cheaper than paying a lawyer to get them a limited license. A pass on that course = reinstated license. The course should be well designed and lead to safer drivers - or else, what is the point! This course should be at least 2 days - maybe 2 weekends or 4 weekdays. Maybe drivers could be sentenced to one of these courses instead of a license suspension for minor offenses and as well as whatever else for the more serious offenses. This course should be mandatory for any new driver/rider to gain a license.

I think a well designed 4 day course could cover enough to make a significant improvement to the average drivers ability to keep themselves and others safe.

[oldrider]

So sad to hear so many bikers are dying.
I believe nothing will change, even in 10 years time.
Bikers will be bikers. Im not being negative, just realistic.

Bikers are there own worst enemies, I have to agree.
There are not many bikers that do not want to pass car doing 100km hr

I have not met one yet. If the car is doing 110 /120+ the biker will still pass it.

Bikers cannot admit that they are not fast, cool, and slow, it just aint right.

You also have to keep up with faster bikers, even though you are not really capable or feel safe doing so. Admit it, you cant lose face can you. Even if it costs you your life.

You cannot change human nature, even if you try for 10 years, 100 years, you cannot admit that your bike, your horse, your steel horse, part of you, the bike that you love, is inferior to the dudes bike in front that you are trying to keep up with.Admit it, Dont ever back down and think about your mates family, etc that are going to miss you when you die, or look after you in a wheel chair. Na dont back down, try to catch up, even if you have to go fast through intersections, and push it hard into the corners, you'll catch up with him....When he visits you in hospital.


You'll be right! Mate Dont back down, your bike is better than his and you are a better rider.

There are not many exceptions to this rule!!!

Yeah Right- Human Nature

You are not just talking about motorcyclists here, this is the psyche of almost every motorist in New Zealand, motorcyclists are just an easy group to target!

On our loop ride on Sunday 120 miles of fantastic riding, (views scenery superb) relatively uncluttered roads, the average speed encountered would have been seventy to eighty miles per hour!

Not motorbikes but cars, buses, trucks, including boats trailers and all manner of drivers including your little old lady types!

One mixed line of traffic required (another biker not me) speeds in excess of 100mph (160kph) to even catch them let alone pass them!

New Zealand drivers do not respect or obey the traffic laws because they are almost meaningless, all they do is look out for traffic police and avoid them whenever they can.

Motorcyclists are no different than any other sector of road users! :kick:

Tidy up the stupid laws and the judiciary system, give the Police true powers and support, win back public respect and watch our road toll diminish! :yes:

[MSTRS]

I think you'll find that the general public believes that motorcyclists should be constrained by the same set of rules that govern the whole of our society.

Until motorcyclists are seen as a whole to be recognising that fact we don't stand a shit show of getting anything changed.

And I think you will find that a fair number of the general public believes that motorcycles should be banned altogether "Bloody dangerous things..."

'Until motorcyclists are seen' - yep, that's one of the dangers we have to deal with. He said, flippantly.

In real terms, though, as approx 3% of the motoring 'fleet', does anyone really think that our needs will be catered for? Cheesecutters, for instance. Generally pretty good for the average car, no? Well, cheap-ish, anyway. Yes, we shouldn't ride so as to risk coming into contact with these killers, but again the reality is it has happened and will again. But not often enough for TPTB to replace with 'biker-friendly' barriers.
I've said it before, and here again, if roads etc were designed with motorcyclists in mind, every motorist would gain. But no, instead what we get is an off-camber corner, with poor quality seal that's lost most of its chip. But fix the seal etc? Nope. Put up a roadside barrier to catch the wayward vehicle (but will kill us). It's cheaper, eh?

[StoneY]

Damn, I'll have to go for the loud pipes then...

:laugh:

I got those already-

Still got hit- youth on RGV 250 trying to make all 3 lanes of the motorway in one move hit my tail end

I didnt hear him- see him- or even to be honest really register he had hit the 1100 from behind, :lol:

Bright, loud, BIG bike- stiill got hit BY ANOTHER BIKER being a womble!! :angry2:

Its all about how we behave imho (or misbehave) on public roads
(yes I am guilty too, thanksfully not THAT time)
:violin:

[JMemonic]

Who's saying class is the only issue?

I am talking about 16-24 representing 50% of the deaths on our roads and the ability of a 17 year old to obtain full licence at that age.

You did, see here



16 year olds get their restricted licences, pay the government $ sit in a classroom and accelerate their time and get full at 17. It's a licence to kill.

[mynameis]

You did, see here

Yes and if you use your brains and interpret it properly it's not only the class it's the age.

[2wheeldrifter]

For me it would have to start when you get you licence..


Learners licence = Do a Defensive driving course -

Restricted = Do a advanced driving course/Drink driving education

Full = Skid pad training/advanced control training...

Costs I hear some cry? the cost will get the new driver cheaper insurance premiums for under 25 years... (most parents would love!) ACC rego costs for these new drivers would be cheaper to if the vehicle is registered in their name.
For the rest of us we will have to wait for this sort of training system to gather momentum for our ACC costs to drop.

Now for motorbikes... The Basic handling skills test needs to be way improved on.. what I have seen and heard it's a joke. Keeping this simple,

Basic handling test = Learners

Riding skills/understanding motorcycles = Restricted

Advanced riding skills coruse = full

Costs the some deal as the car. You want to drive/ride then you pay for the privilege with the ofset costs will be your insurance and your ACC levys etc.

Driver education and training.... as normal needs a kick in the pants and the money.

If you want to fight and fix a problem, start at the first possible cause,not half way though it.

Just my thoughts....................... :yawn:

[JMemonic]

Yes and if you use your brains and interpret it properly it's not only the class it's the age.

Thought I had made myself clear the first time back on page 3


I had my full M/C licence at 17, didn't get my car till I was 18 or 19 neither hear nor there, its not the class of licence that's the issue, its attitude, education and distractions.

nice of you not to notice.

Ban car radios, cellphones, all the other distractions going on in the car and who knows, get rid of airbags and ABS, make people actually learn how to drive instead of dependent on technology hmm too hard really.

Oh for those who say ABS, dayglow vests etc, every bike and car ever built has ABS, its the rider or driver, as to dayglow and abundance of these this suddenly makes them invisable, think of the saying cant see the wood for the trees.

[jono035]

Ban car radios, cellphones, all the other distractions going on in the car and who knows, get rid of airbags and ABS, make people actually learn how to drive instead of dependent on technology hmm too hard really.

Oh for those who say ABS, dayglow vests etc, every bike and car ever built has ABS, its the rider or driver, as to dayglow and abundance of these this suddenly makes them invisable, think of the saying cant see the wood for the trees.

Back to horse drawn buggies perhaps?

I don't actually think that 'dayglow' colours are common enough yet to make people 'invisible' and I don't think it will be that way until it becomes fashionable to make houses and fences those colours... It is a matter of contrast, not colour.

[MSTRS]

I don't actually think that 'dayglow' colours are common enough yet to make people 'invisible' and I don't think it will be that way until it becomes fashionable to make houses and fences those colours... It is a matter of contrast, not colour.

So how do you explain the fact that road cones and road workers are being bowled as much as they ever were??? The fact is, bright colours etc do not protect you from those who aren't looking.

[jono035]

So how do you explain the fact that road cones and road workers are being bowled as much as they ever were??? The fact is, bright colours etc do not protect you from those who aren't looking.

I certainly never claimed anywhere in my post that they would save you from anything... I don't think the fact that brightly coloured fabric/plastic doesn't protect you from cars has much to do with how common dayglow is now... You could have all the flashing lights, bright signs, honking horns etc. in the world and it still only helps if the person is actually paying attention.

Still, I'm sure if they went to wearing black overalls there would probably be more accidents.

[Mom]

Back to horse drawn buggies perhaps?

I don't actually think that 'dayglow' colours are common enough yet to make people 'invisible' and I don't think it will be that way until it becomes fashionable to make houses and fences those colours... It is a matter of contrast, not colour.


See and I think they make not a blind bit of difference at all. The only reason I would wear one would be in low light/dark situations where the reflective stripes on them stand out like the perverbial dogs balls. I ride with a really focussed attitude to my riding, I am not of the school that says you will have a crash, it is part of motorcycling. To that I say bullshit. I dont hold with that sentiment at all, I ride to avoid risk and do everything I can to help prevent me becoming a statistic.

[mynameis]

Thought I had made myself clear the first time back on page 3



nice of you not to notice.

Ban car radios, cellphones, all the other distractions going on in the car and who knows, get rid of airbags and ABS, make people actually learn how to drive instead of dependent on technology hmm too hard really.

Oh for those who say ABS, dayglow vests etc, every bike and car ever built has ABS, its the rider or driver, as to dayglow and abundance of these this suddenly makes them invisable, think of the saying cant see the wood for the trees.

Haha your IQ is obviously flying below the radar :weird:

[JMemonic]

Back to horse drawn buggies perhaps?

I don't actually think that 'dayglow' colours are common enough yet to make people 'invisible' and I don't think it will be that way until it becomes fashionable to make houses and fences those colours... It is a matter of contrast, not colour.

Nah I cant figure out those horse things, and I would never propose that as an option.

I work in an environment where dayglow is common, plant is painted dayglow, people are in dayglow, about the only thing not is the van I drive. I look for people, and potential dangers.

[Genestho]

a couple of comments...

the Labour Govt. made a target of 300 road deaths per year and it seems the National Govt. is going with this target as well. ...


Ok I stopped reading the thread here. Apologies if a repost.

The reason for this, is that MOT are adopting the SAME road safety strategy model to 2020, as was adopted to 2010. (Adapted in 10 year increments)

The Safer Journeys public consultation document is the reason you are seeing media adressing roadsafety issues, and will do until at least October, when submissions end, because it's all up for PUBLIC consultation and debate.
There is no ONE group being targeted! It looks at all road user crash issues.

Many of the issues discussed in this thread are being addressed if not by MOT, then by groups or individuals interested. AA has put out a good report as well.


MOT and groups with Roadsafety interests are using media to educate and push the issues at this time of fierce debate - there is method to the madness.

[Blackbird]

In response to my email on page 3, I received the response below this morning.

Dear Mr James

On behalf of Hon Steven Joyce, Minister of Transport, thank you for your email of 21 September 2009 regarding road safety.

Your email has been placed before the Minister for his consideration and you may expect a reply in due course.

Regards,

Belinda McArtney

Ministerial Assistant

Pretty standard stuff but at least I got the courtesy of a reply, which is a first!

[jono035]

Nah I cant figure out those horse things, and I would never propose that as an option.

I work in an environment where dayglow is common, plant is painted dayglow, people are in dayglow, about the only thing not is the van I drive. I look for people, and potential dangers.

Yeah, that's pretty silly. Drove into the city at dusk yesterday and found the cyclists in hi-vis were much more noticeable. When they were far away on on the other side of a 4 lane road + median wearing hi-vis they were easier to spot than when I was closing in on them on my verge.

Of course, if I hadn't been actively looking for hazards then I wouldn't have seen them either way so I guess the hi-vis makes you safer from safe drivers? :doh:

[Marmoot]

Gee we are coping some bad press at the moment, anyone noticing a pattern here. I wonder what it is all leading to?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10598593

Yep, pattern.

2 years ago it was the Asian students.
Last year it was the SUVs.
This year it's the boyracers.
So we're booked for next year's menu.
And I'm guessing that elderly drivers are the menu for 2011.

All hail the mentality that only thrives on "having a common enemy" (read: "common feeds").

P.S.
Funny that drunk drivers have never been promoted from being a target-of-opportunity to a primary target. Maybe the lawmakers are often drunk and if they had done so they would've copped the bad side themselves.

[James Deuce]

Of course, if I hadn't been actively looking for hazards then I wouldn't have seen them either way so I guess the hi-vis makes you safer from safe drivers? :doh:

Tah dah.

Of which there are 4 in NZ.

You guys can argue amongst yourself who they are. I have to learn how to wheelie properly.

[jono035]

Tah dah.

Of which there are 4 in NZ.

You guys can argue amongst yourself who they are. I have to learn how to wheelie properly.

I didn't mean to imply that I was looking harder than usual, I was being exactly as careful as usual. I noticed a few cyclists in hi-vis then remembered this discussion.

[James Deuce]

No, I know exactly what you mean. I see motorcycles in traffic because I am passionate about them so they stand out. If I go looking for reflective vests I see them. Bear in mind that a couple of UK studies have pointed out that people expect reflective vests to be on pedestrians, like road workers and Police, so they are unprepared for a sudden burst of accelration from the "pedestrian" riding the 1000cc motorcycle accelerating from 0-60 in 3.5 seconds.

I have family members who never, ever notice bikes. I have intervened at intersections with a handbrake and moved the gear lever into neutral because I am not going to be involved in a SMIDSY in any way.

I still want to learn how to wheelie properly.

[MSTRS]

I didn't mean to imply that I was looking harder than usual, I was being exactly as careful as usual. I noticed a few cyclists in hi-vis then remembered this discussion.

But that is precisely the point re Hi-Vis. The wearers are seen by those who are looking, and would see them regardless. The rest - well, it makes little-to-no difference - cos they're not looking properly anyway.

[Genestho]

Yep, pattern.

2 years ago it was the Asian students.
Last year it was the SUVs.
This year it's the boyracers.
So we're booked for next year's menu.
And I'm guessing that elderly drivers are the menu for 2011.

All hail the mentality that only thrives on "having a common enemy" (read: "common feeds").

P.S.
Funny that drunk drivers have never been promoted from being a target-of-opportunity to a primary target. Maybe the lawmakers are often drunk and if they had done so they would've copped the bad side themselves.

Well there are some high profile poli's that have been caught out - repeatedly apparently.
There was also a former Govt's Minister, whose daughter was caught with class A, according to old media reports.

Also a colleage had a meeting with another former Govt Minister, and he had no interest whatso ever in changing how things were done in 2007 regarding drink driving, he made that very clear most disrespectfully, arrogantly and frustratedly in front of witnesses.
Our new Govt and Ministers seem to be more in touch with their constituants.

The noise from the public regarding this issue gets louder, with each failure to protect and deter, the new Govt is listening.

Also, over the last year, there are groups now aligning saying the same things from different angles.

[Marmoot]

Well there are some high profile poli's that have been caught out - repeatedly apparently.
There was also a former Govt's Minister, whose daughter was caught with class A, according to old media reports.

Also a colleage had a meeting with another former Govt Minister, and he had no interest whatso ever in changing how things were done in 2007 regarding drink driving, he made that very clear most disrespectfully, arrogantly and frustratedly in front of witnesses.
Our new Govt and Ministers seem to be more in touch with their constituants.

The noise from the public regarding this issue gets louder, with each failure to protect and deter, the new Govt is listening.

Also, over the last year, there are groups now aligning saying the same things from different angles.

With all due respect, I agree with you. But there are some flaws in your post:
- Generally less than 10 high profile accidents were needed for each of the targets in my post to trigger regulation drafts. Yet after more than years of suffering from drunks we still haven't got any strong measures implemented. Your post highlighted this by saying "over the last year, there are groups now aligning...". Yet still no action.
- The government may be listening, but the people behind traffic safety are still the same old Labour-appointed people. Howard Broad to name a few. Andy Knackstedt is still there. etc etc. Yes there is a new pilot on our Hercules but it still won't dogfight an F15.

Basically, we're still stuck in the rut. What this government needs is a purge.

[jono035]

But that is precisely the point re Hi-Vis. The wearers are seen by those who are looking, and would see them regardless. The rest - well, it makes little-to-no difference - cos they're not looking properly anyway.

I noticed them much earlier in the peace, where they were much further away, so for whatever that is worth then hi-vis works... By contrast there was a pedestrian in black pants, a dark jersey and black hair standing in the median in the drizzling rain on my way home at 8:30pm and I didn't notice him in the slightest until he was past my front bumper... If I had moved into the median to turn right I would have been hard pressed not to have skittled him...

I've had a serious collision with a pedestrian before and it is something that scares the shit out of me whenever I see people acting like that...

[James Deuce]

I've had a serious collision with a pedestrian before and it is something that scares the shit out of me whenever I see people acting like that...

In most civilised countries, jaywalking will get you arrested and a gun shoved in your face if you argue.

[jono035]

In most civilised countries, jaywalking will get you arrested and a gun shoved in your face if you argue.

Yeah, I don't think people get just how quickly things can go wrong when you're doing something completely silly like standing on the lane markings as cars go past or walking through a line of stationary traffic beside a lane of free flowing traffic...

[scumdog]

Even for the accidents that aren't technically 'our fault' then I think this still applies. We can wring our hands and complain that car drivers are all out to kill us (fair observation in my limited experience) but ultimately that is a hazard that we have to mitigate ourselves because it is unlikely to change.

Yep, shit-loads of crashes involving one bike running off the road, mostly for no logical reason.

Lack of paying attention while riding is a biggie in these cases from my observations.

[Tink]

Always remember people, that they can't see you, mostly because no one gets taught how to look for other road users in NZ.

White helmets don't help.

Reflective vests don't help.

ABS won't help.

Something I actually agree with.. but


..........take some heat people.....

If we as motorcyclists want to reduce the toll on our kind, then first thing we need to do is have a look within, i.e at ourselves.............doing this would provide lower negative stats over night...... how would this be achieved, well sadly it wont and these stats will continue to pour out until the government do something drastic and unfortunately that's likely to be inevitable

With that in mind... I can only say improve the road transportation, make offenders (speeders), learners & immigrants with limited NZ driving experience ... drive NODDY CARS... one should be fined immediately with community service (not money) for not stopping at a stop sign, driving in the over taking lane on the motorway at less that 99km, driving too close... *555 should work... all the time... improve the wages of the simple non sworn officers that may take the calls, or have to clean up the mess... 60% no claim bonus on insurance should be 80%.

You can't change the mentality of the people with words on here or dialling *555 but you can educate your children at school, and in the home.

Driving should come under education in schools, like health.. .smoking is bad for you but driving drunk or dangerous driving will kill someone else eventually.

On that note I wish Winston001 all the best, and for a speedy recover down south... :(

[Genestho]

With all due respect, I agree with you. But there are some flaws in your post:
- Generally less than 10 high profile accidents were needed for each of the targets in my post to trigger regulation drafts. Yet after more than years of suffering from drunks we still haven't got any strong measures implemented. Your post highlighted this by saying "over the last year, there are groups now aligning...". Yet still no action.
- The government may be listening, but the people behind traffic safety are still the same old Labour-appointed people. Howard Broad to name a few. Andy Knackstedt is still there. etc etc. Yes there is a new pilot on our Hercules but it still won't dogfight an F15.

Basically, we're still stuck in the rut. What this government needs is a purge.

No, with all due respect, I am in the coalface, I have seen things start to move.
I can see where you might think you will be in a rut, as you don't see behind the scenes.

Reviews take time for what ever reasons, things don't happen over night, yes you are correct, we have a labour led road safety plan and beyond and some old favourites, still in place, which is being questioned, but it could be too late.

What you fail to see or know, is from 2007, we - the lobbyists, had doors shut in our face regarding drink driving, then with enough pushing - a review was conducted, from the review - trials were conducted, now - through research submitted (and one would hope trials completed), we have the researched alternative pushed through the 2020 road safety plan, that needs to pass through public support.

I would say going from "it ain't gonna happen" to something, indicates things are moving.

As with any govt, problems need to be targeted, and research needs to be conducted to find the solutions.
There is very little research in this country to go by, the statistics on offer are not complete.

We have had to look outside this country, and outside the square box to find the solutions.

You may see a bland figure of 30,000 prosecutions, or random stories of injury and fatalities...

What stands out clearly is high numbers of categories -12,000 disqualified drink drivers, repeat drunks, 2/3 drunks with 0.015 bac, youth drunks, old drunks, maori drunks (oh yes folks I said it) causing fatalities.

Car conversion 7 years - EBA causing Death - 5

It is a hard task to start with and not as simple as you would think.
First EBA causing death is not seen as a violent crime, it is a traffic offence.

Throw em in jail - er what jail? That would be great if we lived in the States.
The Prisons are nigh on full - there seems to be reluctance to double bunk cells, containers, whatever the Police or Justice suggest they are cut off by do gooders, you the public have to write letters and change that if you support it!! Because obviously we're not just talking Drink driving, we're talking crime in general!

Ban their license you scream, 75% of disqualified drink drivers with revoked licenses continue to drive!!!!!

What 'we' have done for the last 10 years, is treat all drink drivers the same, and use education and intiatives that are out dated and as dead as the victims caused by infringements, community service and home D.

My lobby group (Crossroads) held a conference over the weekend, and from that pooled our resources to ratify policy, which will be released very soon.

The next journey regarding iniatives - will be an uphill battle and could take years based on where we've come from.

What is needed for change is a massive overhaul and support from all agencies, from police to courts, to corrections, to education, to health sector, insurance companies, and the booze sector.

Nothing will be done in this Goverment without public support! And that is a fact. This Government listens, I can tell you the last one didn't.
(Sorry to take this off topic :doh:)

[2wheeldrifter]

Well done T.W.G I applaud your work :first:

[Marmoot]

I do applaud your work too.

But I still struggle to understand how it took less than 6 months from that Christchurch boyracer shooting cop incident to law for crushing boyracer cars, yet there is still no talk of crushing drunk driver cars?

[Genestho]

I do applaud your work too.

But I still struggle to understand how it took less than 6 months from that Christchurch boyracer shooting cop incident to law for crushing boyracer cars, yet there is still no talk of crushing drunk driver cars?
See even boy racer car crushing sounds like it may have been thwarted by the do gooders. I know that was a touchy subject!!!!

Public need to write letters of support, for what ever it is they support, to paper, to the ministers, and keep them going! Because for every solution there's people that stand in its way.

I asked Judith Collins how the reversal into drink drive name and shame went, I wasn't given the complete answer but what she did say was, that it was public support that reversed that PC move.

Car crushing in regards to drink driving needs to be tested on public support. There is someone looking into that, and he's bloody onto it too.
Myself, being practical I wonder if the sale of cars and recycling the money is a better way to go......vs scrap metal. But you'd have to sit down and weigh it all up.

I'll stress again that this govt won't do anything if there's no noise!!

[Quasievil]

Crushing Cars is a waste of time, they will only go and get another Car, for a true positive result I say crush the drivers, easier to dispose of also