New guy starting a build project

[mossy1200]

Hi guys.
I have been fluffing around with the idea of building a bucket for the last year and have finally made a good start.
I already have rg250 race fairings and have had them for almost 6months.
I managed to buy a 88 vt250 tonight for $80 that has expired motor.
Going to pull out all that ghey honda stuff that I can and sell it to fund as much of the build as possible.
I have a total budget of $150 for this project so need to sell as many vtr bits as possible.LOL
My FZR had a $4000 budget and just went past $12000 last week so I may need some budget advice.

Will be looking for motor so advice appreciated(cheep).
Maybe one of the vtr carbs will fuel it if they are not to big.Whats the four stroke size limit for carbs?

Any you Wellington guys have bits that may help let me know.

[Henk]

How hammered is the motor? Could you blank off one cylinder and run it as a VT125?

[Pumba]

I will start you off, there is no carb size limit for the four strokes (but dont bring it up round the two stroke boys they are a bit dirty that we wont let them have bigger carbs:sweatdrop)

Cheek out chaptor 24 of the MNZ Manual. Should tell you heaps.

As for engines may be a lonchin? $500 (I think) out of the box running

[bucketracer]

.

You don't have to stick with an engine. You can try one then another if you want to. For what its worth I think a good rolling chassis and handling is the more important. The ultimate engine can come later. Just my 2cents worth.

.

[mossy1200]

How hammered is the motor? Could you blank off one cylinder and run it as a VT125?
i cant see the tard me auction as it was fixed price and he ended the listing when I bought it.Picking it up next week after racing at Manfeild.It was his sons and I think it was run with no oil and he has attempted the home bodgy rebuild so expect valve strike,cam chain destruction ruined bores and so on.LOL.
Will have a look though as I may be able to salvage it and plate the rear cylinder and run the front.Should know by end of next week how bad it is.

[mossy1200]

I will start you off, there is no carb size limit for the four strokes (but dont bring it up round the two stroke boys they are a bit dirty that we wont let them have bigger carbs:sweatdrop)

Cheek out chaptor 24 of the MNZ Manual. Should tell you heaps.

As for engines may be a lonchin? $500 (I think) out of the box running

I was thinking lonchin 150 with carbs and ignition etc.$500 is above my wifes alocated budget.LOL(but is within mine.Dont tell her I said that if she comes to the track).
It may depend on how many vtr bits I sell as i have just bought $2000 fcr carbs,ebc prolites,wisco big bore kit,gasket set,carbon pads, adjustable cams,conrad bolts for the fzr and still have to come up with another G for other bits in the next few weeks for the rebuild so I feel broke and suffer from wifes constant money purse tightening.
I fear pushing my luck much further cause she may be little but she can get naaastiiee

[koba]

Once you ship the Loncin and add $ for the bigger carb I think it comes closer to seven hundie. Still farken cheap for a brand new running engine!

[mossy1200]

Once you ship the Loncin and add $ for the bigger carb I think it comes closer to seven hundie. Still farken cheap for a brand new running engine!
7 hundy is good value but above my budget at the moment.I will get the frame ready and strip it down checking bushes forks etc while I look for motor.
Ill check that the vt isnt salvagable.I may even buy a vt motor and blank off a cylinder then ill have spares also.Ill post some pictures next week after collection.That would also leave me with electrics to suit.

[sinfull]

I feel broke and suffer from wifes constant money purse tightening.
I fear pushing my luck much further cause she may be little but she can get naaastiieeOooooooo that grates me when i hear that !!!!
It's time for a revolt ! We should burn our, our, damn it, burn something before they take the vote off us !!!
Give them an inch or 3 and they take ya wallet !!!

[fi5hy]

Loncin Diesel is a good pick, mine has been in for two years and two months without an issue yet. Poor little thing it does get some assholes

[nudemetalz]

My bucket (complete with a nice reliable Luncheon motor) is up for sale.
Cost me $4K to build but I'll sell it for significantly less than that !!!

[F5 Dave]

Ahh Chris don't do it, for the little you'll get for it it will be a valued release every so often to get out for a race. Trust me on this. Trade sat so B can get out so you can get sundays, or at least every so often. All your time is not forfeit. Look at Fishie or others with kids.


I was going to suggest the VTR125 solution. A minor bit of engineering as long as the crank/gearbox & at least 1 top end can be saved. At a later date can be bored out with a modern 4 valve piston from a CBR150 perhaps.

That 16" wheel will have to go eventually though.

[NOID]

YEA GOT THE LONCIN TRACTOR !!!! JUST MY 2c

[nudemetalz]

As much as I'd like to keep it,..my health comes first unfort.

VTR 125 concept is interesting. Would you grind off the rear barrel as I'm pretty sure they're cast into the top part of the crankcase.
Clutch and gearbox I would think would be overbuilt for the 16hp or so it would have instead of 30-40hp.

[Schrgd]

What about keeping rear cyl on vtr and converting to compresser of sort's?
Twice the compression per four stroke revoulution, and just sleeve front cyl down to remain legal!?! What a hairbrained idea that is unless it actually works! lol

[F5 Dave]

It was just an idea for a simpler build, it would all stay fitted to std engine mounts, - just remove parts so one cylinder went. Heck sounds a bit like Chris's 600-450 conversion.

There was a chap that fitted a VTR cylinder to a CB125 bottom end (back in the day when 4 bangers were only allowed 125cc), but never heard much more of it.


Of course there will be more effective engines which will be lighter; but can be expensive & time consuming to develop a 2 stroke.

[quallman1234]

Ivan has a VTR sitting in his garden. There's soo many of the freaken things around you will be able to make a engine for barely anything.

[DELLORTO]

that newmanz rc direct guy is selling a cbr150r replica motors {watercooled}....probualy makes good power but relability wouldnt be too good.

[F5 Dave]

Read the bit about the budget in first post. He will need to break it for tyres so brand new engines are out for sure.

Of course you can fit the 750 6 speeder in the later FZR cases so probably in the Genesis as well. Think they go out to 1040 easy enough but JE can make pistons to suit any application. Some race spec Brembos would have to be the go as R1 calipers will fit but out of period.:shifty:

[SHELRACING]

Depending on yer taste for the motor (2 smoke or 4).

A 2 Stroke motor would be cheaper to buy but need a lot of ongonig development and maintenance. GP125's Rx125's and the Trusty but heavily modified H100.

Four stroke Depending on how competitive you want to be. I had a Loncin motor (very reliable) but it won't get you to the front of the pack. The most popular options being the FXR150 motor (expensive tho ). If you could find a good cb125twin motor that would be an interesting option, they are getting on a bit in years but still very competitive and reasonbly priced.

Put as much thought into your suspension and tyres as you do your motor :yeah:

just my humble opinion.

[Shorty_925]

The most popular options being the FXR150 motor (expensive tho ).

Like everything you just have to hang out for a bargin or its a right place right time sort of thing as well or word of mouth. We've picked up a fxr150 engine(bugger all k's on it) with electric's, put it into a cbr250 frame and is now running and ready for the next event at roys hill. Engine, carb and electrics for as much as a new lonchin.

[mossy1200]

What about keeping rear cyl on vtr and converting to compresser of sort's?
Twice the compression per four stroke revoulution, and just sleeve front cyl down to remain legal!?! What a hairbrained idea that is unless it actually works! lolSuper charger driven off then second cam chain perhaps?
I think both barrels are off the motor at the moment but I cant access the photos because it was listing and not auction so the buyer removed it once I contacted him to purchace it.I might try finding some 17 inch wheels but may have to be later on after running it a while/

[mossy1200]

It was just an idea for a simpler build, it would all stay fitted to std engine mounts, - just remove parts so one cylinder went. Heck sounds a bit like Chris's 600-450 conversion.

There was a chap that fitted a VTR cylinder to a CB125 bottom end (back in the day when 4 bangers were only allowed 125cc), but never heard much more of it.


Of course there will be more effective engines which will be lighter; but can be expensive & time consuming to develop a 2 stroke.

The attractive thing is that because conversion is a twin then can remove the whole top end and then not have to worry about cams and valves opening and letting fuel in because they just wont exist.

[F5 Dave]

& you mean just leave the piston flailing about with no head on it? Maybe a perspex head cover to keep dust out & some total loss lubricating oil in. Have to block off the oil feeds to upper head or lose pressure to where you want it.

Or you hook the rod off with blanking depending on the crank lubrication & rebalance the crank.

[mossy1200]

& you mean just leave the piston flailing about with no head on it? Maybe a perspex head cover to keep dust out & some total loss lubricating oil in. Have to block off the oil feeds to upper head or lose pressure to where you want it.

Or you hook the rod off with blanking depending on the crank lubrication & rebalance the crank.Talking about removing rod and whole top end then plate over base gasket.Will need to resurch crank balance as assume it will be out by weight of one conrod and piston.Noob question.Is the crank balanced without rods etc and does this meen it will be the same as a single with rods attatched?

[koba]

Look at a Ducati supermono... Further to what Dave said you may be able to do a budget version by leaving the piston in or making a dummy "rod guide" that is the same weight as the piston but doesn't pump heaps of air. Perhaps divert the old head lube to keep it wet.
I had alot of thoughts on this because I had one I got for a pack of bickies. I ended up giving it to Ivan and there it rests.

EDIT: All this is still going to cost more tha $150, even if you get all the bits for free.

[Henk]

You could machine the top of the piston out to cut down on pumping losses and leave the cam out. Not sure if the balancing effect you get will be worth the power you lose to it though.
Here we all are taking wild guesses at what can be done with the existing motor and it may turn out to be a complete anchor yet.

[mossy1200]

Read the bit about the budget in first post. He will need to break it for tyres so brand new engines are out for sure.

Of course you can fit the 750 6 speeder in the later FZR cases so probably in the Genesis as well. Think they go out to 1040 easy enough but JE can make pistons to suit any application. Some race spec Brembos would have to be the go as R1 calipers will fit but out of period.:shifty:
I got the first exup 89.Have a wiseco 1040 kit just arrived this week and new conrod bolts.my brakes are full rebuild with piston seals and master and braided lines.It will do stoppies at high speed so they are good.Just wasnt sure about the strength of 6 speed as with the fcrs and rebuild we will look for 160rwhp(currently 144).

[mossy1200]

Look at a Ducati supermono... Further to what Dave said you may be able to do a budget version by leaving the piston in or making a dummy "rod guide" that is the same weight as the piston but doesn't pump heaps of air. Perhaps divert the old head lube to keep it wet.
I had alot of thoughts on this because I had one I got for a pack of bickies. I ended up giving it to Ivan and there it rests.

EDIT: All this is still going to cost more tha $150, even if you get all the bits for free.
the idea is to sell the unwanted vtr road bits to help fund the project.Should get a couple hundy + for them.I have race fairings already and will run it on the existing tyres at first.I also have a few bits in the garage as I stripped a few bikes last year.Just want an interesting engine of some description to fit into it.If I was going to get serious I would get a fxr or two smoker and sink coins until it went fast but im more interested in the drinking of beers after each meeting.

I could throw the fairings on,turn up and say i cant get it going and drink beer I spose.

[koba]

the idea is to sell the unwanted vtr road bits to help fund the project.Should get a couple hundy + for them.I have race fairings already and will run it on the existing tyres at first.I also have a few bits in the garage as I stripped a few bikes last year.Just want an interesting engine of some description to fit into it.If I was going to get serious I would get a fxr or two smoker and sink coins until it went fast but im more interested in the drinking of beers after each meeting.

I could throw the fairings on,turn up and say i cant get it going and drink beer I spose.

It's a start...

[F5 Dave]

Yeah there are so few VTRs still going it may be hard to get coin for bits, but weirder things have happened on Tardme. Erm VT vs VTR, I thought late 80s would be VT, oh no, hold on they went all plasticy, sorry didn't really pay much attn to them.

FZR sounds good. Neat engine, that's some serious arse hp you are talking.

[nudemetalz]

I've owned a couple of models of the VT's before. Great wee motors.
The most powerful of them all was the FG late 80's one.
The Spada & then the Monster lookalike got ever reducing power outputs.

[mossy1200]

Yeah there are so few VTRs still going it may be hard to get coin for bits, but weirder things have happened on Tardme. Erm VT vs VTR, I thought late 80s would be VT, oh no, hold on they went all plasticy, sorry didn't really pay much attn to them.

FZR sounds good. Neat engine, that's some serious arse hp you are talking.
My bad it will be mid 80s vt250 and not vtr.
Has 16inch front wheel etc.
Will post photos when I have collected it.
Some parts will sell but as there are heaps wrecked only expect to unload bits cheep and maybe only 30% of the parts will sell but it all helps.

[mossy1200]

Got it home now.One head off already and for how long is not clear.

Had a check of the fibre glass rg fairings I already had and they will fit once headlight removed.To late to start working so listed road parts on tardme for now at least.

[koba]

I guess you saw the buckets at round 5?

[mossy1200]

I guess you saw the buckets at round 5?

Have been to cart track and slipway to watch with George so it was already on the must do list.Have had fairings for 6 months.

Manfield not quite suited to buckets.I thought they were still on warm up lap but they were already racing.

[DELLORTO]

Have been to cart track and slipway to watch with George so it was already on the must do list.Have had fairings for 6 months.

Manfield not quite suited to buckets.I thought they were still on warm up lap but they were already racing.

some of the buckets go realy well at big tracks, my fxr was great at taupo and i could imagine my cbr would be too.......

what sort of buckets were they?

[mossy1200]

some of the buckets go realy well at big tracks, my fxr was great at taupo and i could imagine my cbr would be too.......

what sort of buckets were they?
They looked like 60k machines and a mini bike was keeping up but I could be wrong and they may have been moving quicker.

[DELLORTO]

They looked like 60k machines and a mini bike was keeping up but I could be wrong and they may have been moving quicker.

a pocket bike? keeping up with a bucket?.......i used to race an italian one of those and it seems like an asmatic snail compared to my bike,

buckets arnt that slow, some of them might be,but some of the buckets around can beat a street stock 150 bike with the right rider.

[speedpro]

I did OK at W(h)anganui on my bucket in either F3 or (shudder) Clubmans. Original Taupo it was pretty even with the streetstock 150s and a couple of the faster bucket guys blew them away - Dennis Charlotte and Jimmy Steadman for instance. The Auckland club ran a class one year which I think had "old" RS125s, streetstocks and buckets and I did OK there as well. The RSs would get me as they wound up but I could outbrake them at the end of the back straight and ride round them in turn one. Turn 1 was good for passing the streetstocks as well as they ran out of ground clearance. A whole bunch of us gave the learn to most of the F3 class at Nelson one year as well, that was fun, they wouldn't let us practice with F3 and then in the race started us at the back in a 2nd grid as they didn't want us getting in the way at the start. By the 2nd corner the 1st two rows of buckets were scrapping in the top 10.

[mossy1200]

You could machine the top of the piston out to cut down on pumping losses and leave the cam out. Not sure if the balancing effect you get will be worth the power you lose to it though.
Here we all are taking wild guesses at what can be done with the existing motor and it may turn out to be a complete anchor yet.
I talked to someone in the know more than all of us and he suggested drill holes in top of piston and plate over the head or put the head back on with no cam so the valves are all shut.The holes in piston will allow the pressure to return in and out of the chamber enough and the slight unbalance will add character.
I listed the parts so will see what is requested .If I get lucky and people are after ignition and electrics then I may be able to get more suited motor without blowing the budget.$150 plus some lunch money is it im afraid, and 80 is gone already buying bike.
The contract that may wife signed for me in her own mind is binding as far as she is concerned.The tyre are not bad thank God cause otherwise I would be cutting the knobles off trail tyres to have tyres.LOL

[DELLORTO]

me and a kid on a aprillia rs125 had a race at a track-day back in june, his top end speed was extremely fast but i bet him cos his lines were bad and his corner speed in and out of corners was much slower than me, it comes down to rider.Thats why even though i have a "bucket' i still dont get phased by bigger bikes, there always going to be a gumby on a big capacity motorbike than cant handle it.

Ive heard heaps of stories from people at mt wellington going to track days with their buckets and thrashing 1000cc bikes ect

[mossy1200]

I usually have left over 120/70/17 front slicks on my postie if you Welly guys want to buy or swap bits for them.They would make great rears on a 3.5 inch rim and because I have tyre sponcer they are normally three heat cycles old new generation medium compound(suit cold to warm weather).

Just a thought.

[koba]

Th buckets at manfeild were only 3 laps of the "Club curcuit" using the sliproad for a bit of fun, Sketchys bucket was heaps faster than the rest.

Actually racing a 150 I would have to say to say it would take a learner rider to be beaten by an average bucket.

An exceptionally fast two stroke bucket could beat a 150 on atight track, the really fast guy gave me the shits a the TRRS until he blew it up.

Anyway...

[mossy1200]

Any rule about superchargers as the second piston can be used as air compressor filling and cylinder tank.

Check this out.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2009/01/12/ducati-v-one-twin-to-supercharged-single-conversion/

[koba]

Any rule about superchargers as the second piston can be used as air compressor filling and cylinder tank.

Check this out.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2009/01/12/ducati-v-one-twin-to-supercharged-single-conversion/

It CAN but the working cylinder has to be 100cc or under...

[koba]

Any rule about superchargers as the second piston can be used as air compressor filling and cylinder tank.

Check this out.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2009/01/12/ducati-v-one-twin-to-supercharged-single-conversion/

Damn, its a pity thats agaist the F3 rules...

[mossy1200]

Damn, its a pity thats agaist the F3 rules...

I have people requesting parts on the vt so i may be able to buy a 150 engine with that money.I will have a go at running the engine with one piston this weekend but it could be total time waster and selling the electrics could be a better bet to afford new 150 engine.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=245138231&permanent=0

[mossy1200]

spent some time on la bucket
Striped it down saving parts for resale
Bad points are the chain was so tight the link bent while removing.
Took sump of engine and contains bad final drive bearing and gearbox damage.
No front brakes but may just need bleeding and fluid.
Rear sproket not flash.


Good points is chasis is light and fork seals good and rear shock good.
Bearings etc are good in swinger and steering head.



not sure if i will cut frame and shorten it.Perhaps wait for new motor to see what will work.

[DELLORTO]

why dont you get a gsxr600 and shut off three of its cylinders making it a 150!! :2thumbsup

[F5 Dave]

For all your usual throw away replies, that one is actually funny. I wonder if Ozzy is working on one yet?

[mossy1200]

Maybe Ozzy has a spare piston I could use.

[F5 Dave]

They stay in there un-ignighted. (& would take you out to more than 150 given shorter stroke of modern bikes)

[mossy1200]

They stay in there un-ignighted. (& would take you out to more than 150 given shorter stroke of modern bikes)
Yeh i was just be smart arse.
I was reading up on a ducati which has the second cylinder compressing air into a pressure bottle then using the air as a supercherger onto the other cylinder.it gave him more hp by 15 and more torque than double the cc as a twin.

[Kickaha]

There was a chap that fitted a VTR cylinder to a CB125 bottom end (back in the day when 4 bangers were only allowed 125cc), but never heard much more of it.

Oyster has a CB125 monocoque framed thingy with a VT250 4 valve head fitted to it and there was a second one built which sold on TM last year

[koba]

Oyster has a CB125 monocoque framed thingy with a VT250 4 valve head fitted to it and there was a second one built which sold on TM last year

Cool, I like the sound of that! I was thinking of somthing similar to make somthing all honda and competotive but I will never actually do it.

[mossy1200]

Im open to suggestions guys but keep it cheep.The vt motor is toast and it makes more sense to go 150 single.
Sold $45 dollars of the vt bits so far so total build budget has hit $195 with $80 spent.Will the kitty grow.No ones knows.

If it comes under budget the change goes into beer fund for the first meeting raced.If it goes over ill watch you guys have one.

[Skunk]

Two smoke for that frame - otherwise you'll be forever welding it back together.

[mossy1200]

Two smoke for that frame - otherwise you'll be forever welding it back together.

Do you think the frame is weak.It was holding fairly heavy twin which didnt seem to be part of the strength.I have the long bolts that held engine and will reinstall them with tubes to put the strength back in.Not a problem to weld extra braces if required.Was thinking triangle plates near steering head.

[mossy1200]

First fairing fit to see the full extent of ugly bucket.
May move the fairing up and back but will wait to see how exaust gets in there.Thinking under tail mufler as there is lots of room.

[Kendog]

Do you think the frame is weak.It was holding fairly heavy twin which didnt seem to be part of the strength.I have the long bolts that held engine and will reinstall them with tubes to put the strength back in.Not a problem to weld extra braces if required.Was thinking triangle plates near steering head.

Skunks comment is based on the repeated need to weld my bike back together (Lonchin 150 in a RG250 frame). So far I have cracked the front engine mount twice, rear top mount once and the rear seat mount twice.

The engine mounts are 'touch wood' sorted for now, but I have a feeling it is only a matter of time before one goes again. The rear seat mount is still a work in progress.

If you come to the Slipway next weekend I will show you what we have done. If you bring your frame up we could have a look.

[mossy1200]

Skunks comment is based on the repeated need to weld my bike back together (Lonchin 150 in a RG250 frame). So far I have cracked the front engine mount twice, rear top mount once and the rear seat mount twice.

The engine mounts are 'touch wood' sorted for now, but I have a feeling it is only a matter of time before one goes again. The rear seat mount is still a work in progress.

If you come to the Slipway next weekend I will show you what we have done. If you bring your frame up we could have a look.
I may get to slipway but I owe my wife some time as its the last vmcc round the weekend afterwards.I will need to source an engine and see how it fits in.
I suspect that I may weld plate that contacts a fair area across the frame from which to mount engine to reduce stress.Have access to welder and will brace it up if need be.It could be a while before i source motor yet.
Does the loncin motor have top mount or just two lower mounts.

[Kendog]

Does the loncin motor have top mount or just two lower mounts.
It has five mount points. Front top and bottom, Rear top and bottom, and a top mount. I am using all the front and rear mount points.

[Kendog]

I may get to slipway but I owe my wife some time as its the last vmcc round the weekend afterwards.
Bring her along, we are always in need of some flag marshals :whistle:

[mossy1200]

Bring her along, we are always in need of some flag marshals :whistle:
Dont ever tell her I said this but shes a girly girl and a bit of an outdoors unco.
She would be more likely to accidentally poke someone with the flag than warn someone of danger.Will try to make it if possible but you would be better off with me being a marshal if we get there.Can you pm me the gate code and times your racing.Cheers

[Kendog]

Dont ever tell her I said this but shes a girly girl and a bit of an outdoors unco.
She would be more likely to accidentally poke someone with the flag than warn someone of danger.Will try to make it if possible but you would be better off with me being a marshal if we get there.Can you pm me the gate code and times your racing.Cheers

Classic.

The code and times will be in the Wellington bucket social group. Send Sully60 a pm to join.

[Kickaha]

Two smoke for that frame - otherwise you'll be forever welding it back together.


Skunks comment is based on the repeated need to weld my bike back together (Lonchin 150 in a RG250 frame). So far I have cracked the front engine mount twice, rear top mount once and the rear seat mount twice.

You guys and Girl never heard of engine balancing or rubber mounting?

[Skunk]

You guys and Girl never heard of engine balancing or rubber mounting?
Loncin? phffft! Wouldn't waste my time.

[DELLORTO]

harley's v2's are on rubber mounting.......but i cant say much in the good terms for them......

[mossy1200]

sold another $80 worth of parts today so build budget sitting at $195 remaining and climbing.

[mossy1200]

sump sold today so up to $215 in the budget to spend.
Whats a good 2nd hand gl145 motor or similar go for?
Would I be best to buy donor bike or new engine with wiring and carbs?
I think someone mentioned $500 plus freight etc.
Would prefer to be in budget and alot cheeper unless lots more bits sell.

[Shorty_925]

or prehaps this....

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=236534444

[mossy1200]

or prehaps this....

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=236534444
Im doing the build your own thing.Its nice but im going for $150 build cost includes purchace bike plus sale of unwanted bits.Spent $80 so far and sold $145 in bits so have $215 in the kitty.

Moved the fairings back since photo and dropped the clipons below top clamps plus removed some excess weight.Have left the major existing mounts etc untill I know whats mounting where.

Nice gl but need to construct.Good price for a runner.