Skeptics take on the anti-1080 nutters, and others

[Hitcher]

A documentary which highlights the "distress, cruelty, horror, ecocide, cover-ups and contamination" involved in 1080-based pest control has won the Bent Spoon brickbat from the NZ Skeptics for 2009.

"Poisoning Paradise - Ecocide in New Zealand" claims that 1080 kills large numbers of native birds, poisons soils, persists in water and interferes with human hormones. Hunters-cum-documentary makers Clyde and Steve Graf believe that 1080 has "stuffed the venison business", and have been travelling the country showing their film since March.

The NZ Skeptics, along with other groups, are concerned that wide media coverage and nation-wide screenings of "Poisoning Paradise" will lead to a political push, rather than a scientifically based one, to drop 1080 as a form of pest control, with nothing effective to replace it.

United Future leader Peter Dunne appeared in the film, and described 1080 as "an indiscriminate untargeted killer". Emotions run high in the debate, with one anti-1080 campaigner going so far as to hijack a helicopter at gunpoint and last month threatening to die on Mount Tongariro unless the documentary received prime-time billing.

"Members of the NZ Skeptics are involved in various conservation efforts across the country. They have seen first-hand the effectiveness of 1080 drops and the brutal ineffectiveness of attempts to control pests by trapping and hunting, even in the smaller fenced arks, let alone in more rugged, isolated areas like Hawdon Valley or Kahurangi National Park," says Skeptics Chair-entity Vicki Hyde.

"People say that 1080 is cruel - so is a possum when it rips the heads off kokako chicks. Environmental issues aren´t simple. We are forever walking a difficult balancing act. At this stage, 1080 is the best option for helping our threatened species hang on or, even better, thrive. It would be devastating for our wildlife were we to abandon this."

Hyde has a particular interest in this area, having served for eight years on the Possum Biocontrol Bioethics Committee, alongside representatives from Forest & Bird, the RNZSPCA and Ngai Tahu. Over the past 20 years she has seen 1080 use become more effective with the advent of better knowledge and application methods, and acknowledges that there is always room for improvement.

"We would dearly love a quick, cheap, humane, highly targeted means of getting rid of possums and other pests but until that day comes, we cannot ignore the clear and present danger to our native wildlife. To do so would be environmentally irresponsible in the extreme."

Hyde notes that people should be careful in taking documentaries at face value. A 2007 TV3 documentary "Let Us Spray", and related news material, has just been cited as unbalanced, inaccurate and unfair by the Broadcasting Standards Authority.

"We tend to assume that documentaries are balanced and tell us the whole story, but the increased use of advocacy journalism doesn´t mean this is always the case. After all, remember that psychic charades in programmes like `Sensing Murder´ are marketed as reality programmes!"

The NZ Skeptics also applaud the following, with Bravo Awards, for demonstrating critical thinking over the past year:

* Rebecca Palmer, for her article The Devil's in the Details (The Dominion Post 15 June 2009) pointing out that the makutu case owed more to "The Exorcist" than to tikanga Maori.

"Exorcism rituals, regardless of where they come from, have been shown to harm people, psychologically and physically. There are over 1,000 cases of murder, death and injury recorded on the whatstheharm.net website purely as a result of exorcisms reported in the Western world press over the past 15 years. There are thousands more that occur, for the most part unregarded, in places like Africa, South America or Papua New Guinea. These are all needless victims, often injured by people who care for them and who tragically just didn´t stop to think about the nature of what they were doing."

* Closeup for Hannah Ockelford´s piece Filtering the Truth (11 Sept 2009), regarding the dodgy sales tactics by an Australian organisation which claims that New Zealand's tap water can cause strokes, heart attacks, cancer and miscarriages. Paul Henry described the Australian promoter as a shyster using scare tactics targeting vulnerable people.

"This sort of solid investigative reporting makes a welcome change from the celeb and animal stories that so often pass for news and current affairs these days."

* Rob Harley and Anna McKessar for their documentary The Worst That Could Happen (Real Crime, TV1, 29 July 2009). They took a hard look at the increasing tendency for accusations of accessing computer porn to be made on unfounded grounds, and how it can have devastating consequences for people.

"Unprotected Internet use can be as life-changing as unprotected sex. It is disturbingly easy to have your computer unwittingly contaminated, and that makes people very vulnerable to job dismissals or even prosecutions on the most circumstantial of evidence."

* Colin Peacock and Jeremy Rose of Mediawatch on Radio New Zealand National

"Every week Colin and Jeremy cast a critical eye on New Zealand media. That´s something we all should be doing in demanding that we get thoughtful, informed news and analysis from our media."

[The Pastor]

1080 is the worst way of pest control, it dosent break down, and anything that eats a poisoned animal will also get poisoned.

the only reason we are the last country to use it is because it is the cheapest.

Im not concerned at all about cruelty to the possums stoats and rabbits etc, im concerned that it kills everything in its path.

I also don't think that possums are so bad in NZ, and I don't think there are the number that doc say there are. I am concerned about ferrets, stoats and wild cats.

I think that wide spread large scale trapping is the answer, but of course its flipping expensive.

[Headbanger]

Of course its safe, so was Agent Orange for 30 years.

[McJim]

1080 breaksdown in Water.

I work with the shit and unless you are a possum you are fine.

I'll bring some of the technical data home with me tomorrow but a deer would have to consume somat like 60kg of 1080 impregnated carrot to die and EVEN THEN you would have to eat somat like 3 entire deer to feel ill from it.

I'll be back with the facts and I suggest the nay sayers get their facts straight too before saying what a bad bastard 1080 is.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story eh?

[Headbanger]

I'll be back with the facts


Hey,No one likes a know-it-all :shit:

[McJim]

No one likes a know-it-all :shit:

Well I don't.....'swhy I'm going to bring back the Pest Animals Programme docs from the office....If I had an encyclopaedic knowledge I'd be earning more money and probably working for someone else......

[Hitcher]

1080 is the worst way of pest control, it dosent break down, and anything that eats a poisoned animal will also get poisoned.

Wrong. It does break down. Rainfall breaks it down very quickly. Only dogs and people are affected by eating dead animals poisoned by 1080.


the only reason we are the last country to use it is because it is the cheapest.

Wrong. Nobody else is trying to eradicate a pest mammal.


Im not concerned at all about cruelty to the possums stoats and rabbits etc, im concerned that it kills everything in its path.

It doesn't kill everything in its path.


I also don't think that possums are so bad in NZ, and I don't think there are the number that doc say there are. I am concerned about ferrets, stoats and wild cats.

Two possums is too many. The affect that these pests have on native vegetation and wildlife is horrendous. They're also vectors for bovine Tb and other diseases. Ferrets, stoats and wild cats are also vermin that should be eradicated.


I think that wide spread large scale trapping is the answer, but of course its flipping expensive.

And ineffective. Trapping is ineffective in confined environments without taking it on a larger scale.

[StoneY]

1080 breaksdown in Water.

I work with the shit and unless you are a possum you are fine.

I'll bring some of the technical data home with me tomorrow but a deer would have to consume somat like 60kg of 1080 impregnated carrot to die and EVEN THEN you would have to eat somat like 3 entire deer to feel ill from it.

I'll be back with the facts and I suggest the nay sayers get their facts straight too before saying what a bad bastard 1080 is.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story eh?

I seen enough poisoned pig dogs who ate possums- no myth, seen em myself
Frothed at mouth, died in agony, half digested possum in the guts
Possums have to go but there must be a better way

[Hitcher]

Of course its safe, so was Agent Orange for 30 years.

Agent Orange was unsafe from the first day it was applied. 1080 has been used for a long time and its effects on ecosystems are very well understood. If there was any doubt about its efficacy, New Zealand authorities would ban its use in a heartbeat.

[Mom]

Why have I just seen this thread at this hour of the night?

I will say this before I leave for the night...

The sky is falling Henny Penny!

[Hitcher]

I seen enough poisoned pig dogs who ate possums- no myth, seen em myself
Frothed at mouth, died in agony, half digested possum in the guts


1080 kills dogs. No question. Dogs are highly receptive to it. That's why the agencies that use it go to a lot of trouble to ensure that dog owners know where and when it's being used.

[98tls]

Of course its safe, so was Agent Orange for 30 years. Grew up surrounded by 44 gallon drums of 245T,followed the hype with interest to be honest.Spent many days using via Solos,can remember the huge article back in the day when the press got hold of the fact we were using it in the old brickworks land (ch-ch),think truth be known some house wife objected to ending up with pink sheets.:laugh:

[Headbanger]

Agent Orange was unsafe from the first day it was applied.

Of course, It just depended on who you talked to.

[gatch]

Possums have to go but there must be a better way

Belt fed guns, artillery and napalm strikes..

[98tls]

:Offtopic:Yea a little but this thread reminded me of the good ole days (yea i know) of the many still existing Rabbit board houses/Tussock board etc,instead of the all to easy to get welfare system paying out for no return some of them could be allocated/relocated to such areas to deal with such pests.

[sinfull]

But what about the shellfish ??
Three or four paragraphs too many Hitch !!
NZ, or should i say DOC has made a commitment to deal to pests in order to save native bird life !!! (If only we had that right in the local pubs as teens).
Many are against it, most of them own guns (like i'd argue with them person to person), many more stay silent !
I, like many i know, have watched quietly for years, have seen many fuck ups, but i will have to agree, the pro's overcome any arguement the naysayers come up with !!!
It's working !!!

[98tls]

:done:Can we move on to the Dairy farmers now?

[LBD]

I am fortunate to have spent a good amount of time on a deer, possum and preditor free island Secretary, and in what is called a mainland Island...the Landsborough Valley.

The contrast between these places and areas plagued with deer, possums, rats, stoats, mice etc, has to be seen to be beleived. The bird song in the morning is amazing, the bush is so dense you cannot walk through it. A regular valley is quiet vy compariso and the bush is "open" because of the deer and possum browsing...

1080 is not perfect, I know this, but it has made an impact for the better to the NZ environjment, and without a better alternitive, I support its use.

[Blackbird]

The Coromandel would be a perfect place to live if it didn't attract a fair number of the type of rabid greenie who doesn't like solid evidence getting in the way of a good story. Letters to the Editor on the Peninsula newspapers are chokka every bloody week with emotive stuff on 1080 with not a fact in sight. Big placards on people's lawns too.

A nationally well-known Coro greenie who will remain nameless did their reputation a bit of damage in the 90's for publicly condemning the company I worked for for logging native trees. Trouble is, we were logging plantation radiata pine that we owned and replanted. No apology or retraction of course.

I'm all for a strong environmental stance, just not the idiots who think that facts are an inconvenience (a bit like some people on KB really:laugh:)

[Pussy]

As far as the LD50 of 1080 baits goes.... humans would die of indigestion before the 1080 will kill them.
1080 is such an effective dog killer... because that's what it was originally intended to do.
The greatest wilderness area in the world is the space between greenies' ears

[Mully]

:Offtopic:Yea a little but this thread reminded me of the good ole days (yea i know) of the many still existing Rabbit board houses/Tussock board etc,instead of the all to easy to get welfare system paying out for no return some of them could be allocated/relocated to such areas to deal with such pests.

I actually just had the same thought. Put some unemployed people out to trap the possums and pay them a dollar a pelt.

[NC]

I'm torn about the usage of 1080.
The way I look at it is that it's great for dense forrest and hard to reach areas of NZ. But as for using it because they can't be arsed employing trappers in all the other areas is crap.

[Lias]

I'm all for the compulsory feeding of 1080 to all the zealot greenies that oppose it.....

[rainman]

I'm in two minds about the 1080 debate. Possums are a big problem, and need a big solution. Being in general kinda non- or low-interventionist, I tend to think that more of getting the unemployed to go trapping, and less of the 1080, would be a better approach. However, I'm no expert.


Wrong. It does break down. Rainfall breaks it down very quickly.

The info available to me regarding 1080 breakdown is somewhat ambiguous (and in one case, apparent crap). You seem confident about this point, though: so what is your understanding of the chemistry involved?

The MSDS for 1080 says "Slightly soluble in water and in ethanol". (And also: "Extremely hazardous","Very toxic by inhalation, ingestion or through skin absorption. Estimated lethal dose in humans is in the region of 2-10 mg/kg").


Wrong. Nobody else is trying to eradicate a pest mammal.

Ummm, heard of rats? Furry brown/black things, teeth, tails, fond of cheese, carry diseases? Not very popular in most parts?

[NDORFN]

1080 breaksdown in Water.

I work with the shit and unless you are a possum you are fine.

I'll bring some of the technical data home with me tomorrow but a deer would have to consume somat like 60kg of 1080 impregnated carrot to die and EVEN THEN you would have to eat somat like 3 entire deer to feel ill from it.

I'll be back with the facts and I suggest the nay sayers get their facts straight too before saying what a bad bastard 1080 is.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story eh?

Yeah you WOULD support it's use considering you're tied into financial gain from it.

[ready4whatever]

Member of NZDA here. So you already know im against it. It wipes out everything in the area where it is dropped, no fibs. Take a walk in the bush before its dropped and you hear native birds calling and see native pigeons flying around, after you dont hear shit. Plus all deer sign dissapears :-( .seen a few dead deer from it. Set up programmes for young hunters to go out and have a blast, while making money from the fur. As for the unreachable places im not sure. There are still native birds, not to mention deer that can be accessed by chopper. Must be a better way. Make a virus that only possums catch and die from? too much red tape i suppose. or those new traps that only need setting after 10 pests are killed, CO2 cylinder ones, 1000's of them. Don't let the government tell you they cant afford it

[ready4whatever]

I'm all for the compulsory feeding of 1080 to all the zealot greenies that oppose it.....

I oppose it, no greenies over here. If you think its so great why dont you eat it. or lets sell it to the teleban to make weopens, stuff it into a rocket. They used it in the great war to poison water holes. Do you really want that shit around. Thats it im going up on top of a mountain...

[ready4whatever]

toxic shit

[ready4whatever]

1080 breaksdown in Water.

I work with the shit and unless you are a possum you are fine.

I'll bring some of the technical data home with me tomorrow but a deer would have to consume somat like 60kg of 1080 impregnated carrot to die and EVEN THEN you would have to eat somat like 3 entire deer to feel ill from it.

I'll be back with the facts and I suggest the nay sayers get their facts straight too before saying what a bad bastard 1080 is.



So the deer I've seen poisoned from it ate 60 kg of it? OKAY. and that dead horse would of ate about 120 kg of it aye? thats alot of carrots my friend. and about those facts that you have taken from another source... I've seen first hand what it does so your facts dont ad up. You should wtness it first hand before you take in those 'facts'

[Bounce001]

1080 is bloody horrible stuff. I have been in bush where 1080 has been dropped and it is silent - no birds at all. When they do aerial drops they say they don't drop over waterways. Their definition of waterways is any thing over 2 metres wide. There are many streams in New Zealand bush under this and it is being filled with 1080. There are other options for poisoning available to eradicate possums (eg Feratox) that are much safer and won't kill everything in its path.
I have also been told that New Zealand will keep using 1080 because the company that makes it s own by some very influential people (government ministers?)
Trapping is a good option, especially when possum fur is worth over $80/kg. Good pelts are worth ever more. Possum fur is one of the warmest natural fibres because it is hollow and retains the heat.

Next time you go for a ride on a cold day and put your possum socks on, think about how the possum was killed to get the fur. Who cares if was humane or not (they are possums after all!), but what else was killed (endangered native birds?) because of 1080 to get one or two possums.

[Jantar]

Normally I agree with the skeptics, but in this case I do believe thay have got it wrong.

Whilst I haven't seen the technical data or perused any origional studies on lethal doses, I have been through areas of native bush shortly before a 1080 drop and again a week after. The difference is astonishing. Plenty of birdsong and deer sign before the drop, and plenty of silence afterwards. also plenty of dead birds (mostly native) and some dead deer.

In the late 1970's and early 1980's plenty of people were earning a good living from trapping and poisoning possums and selling the fur. In many areas the possum numbers were declining, yet there were still some more remote and inaccessible areas were this form of control couldn't work. Then came the animal rights and anti fur trade campaigners and possum hunting died as a profitable business. There are some alternatives to 1080 in most parts of the country so I'd be very interested to see the results of real studies and test data.

[Blackbird]

Further to my last post, the cutting below was the lead article in this morning's Peninsula Post. The whole article rambles on a bit, but the property which the protesters invaded, doing a bit of damage en route apparently belongs to two respected conservationists and retired scientists (who are predictably not Greens). Their crime? Allowing one of their paddocks to be used as a landing pad for a chopper dropping 1080.

The tired old "end justifying the means" cliche? Popularised by despots and lunatics round the world.

[MsKABC]

A book written by an acquaintance of mine:

http://www.publishme.co.nz/shop/scenicdreamorsilentnightmare-p-412.html

and her website

http://www.stop1080poison.com/index.html

For any who may be interested.

Personally, I'm still sitting on the fence.

[Ixion]

Oh. I thought this was a thread about people who didn't like Ducatis.

Damn. I wasted all that time polishing up snide remarks about electrics.

[Dazza]

I also don't think that possums are so bad in NZ, and I don't think there are the number that doc say there are. I am concerned about ferrets, stoats and wild cats.
Your having a laugh surely :confused:

[Ixion]

1080 breaksdown in Water.

I work with the shit and unless you are a possum you are fine.

I'll bring some of the technical data home with me tomorrow but a deer would have to consume somat like 60kg of 1080 impregnated carrot to die and EVEN THEN you would have to eat somat like 3 entire deer to feel ill from it.



According to http://www.osh.govt.nz/order/catalogue/pdf/1080guidelines.pdf
the oral dose of fluoroacetate sufficient to be lethal in humans is 2–10 mg/kg.

So that'd be 200mg to 0ne GRAM for a human. To have a lethal dose of 60KG the animal would have to weigh 6000 to 30000 kg. That's one honking big deer!



Wrong. It does break down. Rainfall breaks it down very quickly. Only dogs and people are affected by eating dead animals poisoned by 1080.


Where you comin' from Willis? Lotsa creatures will scavenge a dead beast.

Rats, pigs, feral cats, lots of birds (crows, blackbirds, hawks, most raptors). Now to mention shrews ,weasels, politicians.

OK some of those are dispensable in their own right. But not all. And once it's in the food chain who knows where it stops? Also, humans (and dogs) might eat a deer (or pig) that had been poisoned but hadn't yet died. "That was an easy shot!"

Not to mention other possible scenarios. Carrots dropped, 1080 leaches from carrots into soil, earthworms and beetles eat contaminated stuff in soil, kiwis eat earthworms and beetles ?

Oh, and you better not let Mrs Ixion hear you dissing Blossom the Possum. Mrs Ixion takes a keen interest in Blossom the Possum.

Though, judging by the noise it makes running across the roof , I reckon maybe it DOES weigh 30000 kg !

[T.W.R]

According to http://www.osh.govt.nz/order/catalogue/pdf/1080guidelines.pdf
the oral dose of fluoroacetate sufficient to be lethal in humans is 2–10 mg/kg.



Sodium fluoroacetate is the active incredient but it's a nautrally accuring agent in most plants etc
But absorbed it's fluorocitrate and that's what does the damage :niceone:

The Grafs are bias through their one-sided arguements, staged carcases, sympathy milking videos.

The wont speak to actual specialists in the subject for their so-called facts & figures

[MsKABC]

Sodium fluoroacetate is the active incredient but it's a nautrally accuring agent in most plants etc


DoC/AHB etc. "1080 is naturally occurring."
Fact: Plants produce fluoroacetic acid, but manufactured 1080 is sodium
monofluoroacetate. Mr. Eason stated (April 2002) "Anyone comparing
1080 poison with the naturally-occurring substance is stupid."

(From http://www.stop1080poison.com/Page10.html)

[T.W.R]

DoC/AHB etc. "1080 is naturally occurring."
Fact: Plants produce fluoroacetic acid, but manufactured 1080 is sodium
monofluoroacetate. Mr. Eason stated (April 2002) "Anyone comparing
1080 poison with the naturally-occurring substance is stupid."

(From http://www.stop1080poison.com/Page10.html)


:jerry: I can play that game all day with this topic :laugh:

[MsKABC]

:jerry: I can play that game all day with this topic :laugh:

Well - go on then? We're waiting! :D

[T.W.R]

Well - go on then? We're waiting! :D

Well instead of qouting 2nd hand from a dedicated "anti 1080" site

do some research from specialists in the field

like here for example.


http://www.jstor.org/stable/3545249?cookieSet=1

[T.W.R]

And more

http://us.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalProductProperty_US_CB1739103.aspx

http://dspace.lincoln.ac.nz/dspace/handle/10182/793

[Deano]

Well its a damn shame that you can't really take a dog to the Hutt River now due to the risk of contaminated possum carcasses. Greater Wellington signs are all over the place. Together with toxic algae, the river is pretty whucked.

[Scouse]

A documentary which highlights the "distress, cruelty, horror, ecocide, cover-ups and contamination" involved in 1080-based pest control has won the Bent Spoon brickbat from the NZ Skeptics for 2009.

"Poisoning Paradise - Ecocide in New Zealand" claims that 1080 kills large numbers of native birds, poisons soils, persists in water and interferes with human hormones. Hunters-cum-documentary makers Clyde and Steve Graf believe that 1080 has "stuffed the venison business", and have been travelling the country showing their film since March.

The NZ Skeptics, along with other groups, are concerned that wide media coverage and nation-wide screenings of "Poisoning Paradise" will lead to a political push, rather than a scientifically based one, to drop 1080 as a form of pest control, with nothing effective to replace it.

United Future leader Peter Dunne appeared in the film, and described 1080 as "an indiscriminate untargeted killer". Emotions run high in the debate, with one anti-1080 campaigner going so far as to hijack a helicopter at gunpoint and last month threatening to die on Mount Tongariro unless the documentary received prime-time billing.

"Members of the NZ Skeptics are involved in various conservation efforts across the country. They have seen first-hand the effectiveness of 1080 drops and the brutal ineffectiveness of attempts to control pests by trapping and hunting, even in the smaller fenced arks, let alone in more rugged, isolated areas like Hawdon Valley or Kahurangi National Park," says Skeptics Chair-entity Vicki Hyde.

"People say that 1080 is cruel - so is a possum when it rips the heads off kokako chicks. Environmental issues aren´t simple. We are forever walking a difficult balancing act. At this stage, 1080 is the best option for helping our threatened species hang on or, even better, thrive. It would be devastating for our wildlife were we to abandon this."

Hyde has a particular interest in this area, having served for eight years on the Possum Biocontrol Bioethics Committee, alongside representatives from Forest & Bird, the RNZSPCA and Ngai Tahu. Over the past 20 years she has seen 1080 use become more effective with the advent of better knowledge and application methods, and acknowledges that there is always room for improvement.

"We would dearly love a quick, cheap, humane, highly targeted means of getting rid of possums and other pests but until that day comes, we cannot ignore the clear and present danger to our native wildlife. To do so would be environmentally irresponsible in the extreme."

Hyde notes that people should be careful in taking documentaries at face value. A 2007 TV3 documentary "Let Us Spray", and related news material, has just been cited as unbalanced, inaccurate and unfair by the Broadcasting Standards Authority.

"We tend to assume that documentaries are balanced and tell us the whole story, but the increased use of advocacy journalism doesn´t mean this is always the case. After all, remember that psychic charades in programmes like `Sensing Murder´ are marketed as reality programmes!"

The NZ Skeptics also applaud the following, with Bravo Awards, for demonstrating critical thinking over the past year:

* Rebecca Palmer, for her article The Devil's in the Details (The Dominion Post 15 June 2009) pointing out that the makutu case owed more to "The Exorcist" than to tikanga Maori.

"Exorcism rituals, regardless of where they come from, have been shown to harm people, psychologically and physically. There are over 1,000 cases of murder, death and injury recorded on the whatstheharm.net website purely as a result of exorcisms reported in the Western world press over the past 15 years. There are thousands more that occur, for the most part unregarded, in places like Africa, South America or Papua New Guinea. These are all needless victims, often injured by people who care for them and who tragically just didn´t stop to think about the nature of what they were doing."

* Closeup for Hannah Ockelford´s piece Filtering the Truth (11 Sept 2009), regarding the dodgy sales tactics by an Australian organisation which claims that New Zealand's tap water can cause strokes, heart attacks, cancer and miscarriages. Paul Henry described the Australian promoter as a shyster using scare tactics targeting vulnerable people.

"This sort of solid investigative reporting makes a welcome change from the celeb and animal stories that so often pass for news and current affairs these days."

* Rob Harley and Anna McKessar for their documentary The Worst That Could Happen (Real Crime, TV1, 29 July 2009). They took a hard look at the increasing tendency for accusations of accessing computer porn to be made on unfounded grounds, and how it can have devastating consequences for people.

"Unprotected Internet use can be as life-changing as unprotected sex. It is disturbingly easy to have your computer unwittingly contaminated, and that makes people very vulnerable to job dismissals or even prosecutions on the most circumstantial of evidence."

* Colin Peacock and Jeremy Rose of Mediawatch on Radio New Zealand National

"Every week Colin and Jeremy cast a critical eye on New Zealand media. That´s something we all should be doing in demanding that we get thoughtful, informed news and analysis from our media."I use Antiskeptic wipes around the house for germ control

[F5 Dave]

. .
Ummm, heard of rats? Furry brown/black things, teeth, tails, fond of cheese, carry diseases? Not very popular in most parts?
Of course I have. Heard of Chickens?



. . . .no wait how does that add go? Herd of Cows?:doh:

[Hitcher]

The info available to me regarding 1080 breakdown is somewhat ambiguous (and in one case, apparent crap). You seem confident about this point, though: so what is your understanding of the chemistry involved?

The MSDS for 1080 says "Slightly soluble in water and in ethanol". (And also: "Extremely hazardous","Very toxic by inhalation, ingestion or through skin absorption. Estimated lethal dose in humans is in the region of 2-10 mg/kg").

Rainfall renders 1080 useless in a comparatively short space of time. That's why its application is weather dependent. The reason access restrictions remain in place for so long is because it takes some time for possum carcasses to decompose. Until they do, there is a risk of foraging dogs getting poisoned.


Ummm, heard of rats? Furry brown/black things, teeth, tails, fond of cheese, carry diseases? Not very popular in most parts?
No authority that I am aware of is trying to eradicate rats. Control is a different matter entirely. Trapping is about control. 1080 is about eradication.

[Hitcher]

toxic shit

You're merely recycling the Graf brothers propaganda that the Skeptics have debunked in the original post in this thread. Well done.

[ynot slow]

When I used to stay at huts on Mt.Egmont 20 years ago the bush was quiet from no birdlife,as possums stripped the trees.After a few 1080 drops in the next 15 years the bird life improved,also the tree vegetation,maybe coincidence.

The thing is my take is yes it's a good pest control system in the correct circumstances.In very hard to reach areas,where family pets can't ingest dead animals and die a slow death.My auntie and uncle farm upto a park boundary,when a drop is being contemplated the landowners are notified,but they have still found stray pellets on paddocks next to boundary fences,when they're supposed to be dropped further inside the park.

[rainman]

Sodium fluoroacetate is the active incredient but it's a nautrally accuring agent in most plants etc


(Emphasis mine).


http://www.jstor.org/stable/3545249


http://us.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalProductProperty_US_CB1739103.aspx

http://dspace.lincoln.ac.nz/dspace/handle/10182/793

Uhm. Two things:

"Most" plants? According to Wikipedia, we're talking "at least 40 plants" - so not many at all.
Concentration - everything I've seen indicates that the plants that do have this chemical do so only in minute amounts (maybe excluding gifblaar and gousiekbossies, but that kinda makes sense given their names - "poison leaf" and "quick sick bushes")


So, it may be "naturally accuring" (sic) but... so what? It's still nasty and toxic.

[Ixion]

..
No authority that I am aware of is trying to eradicate rats. Control is a different matter entirely. Trapping is about control. 1080 is about eradication.

You are mistaken. Mrs Ixion (than whom there is no greater authority at Chez Ixion) is very clear. Rats are to be eradicated , not merely controlled . Mrs Ixion harbours an innate dislike of rats . I am the poor soul who must accomplish the eradication. Fortunately I have feline assistance. The felines harbour no antipathy to the rats, regarding them as rather jolly playthings, with an unfortunate tendency to go dead in the middle of the game. But, it suits my purpose.

[scumdog]

but a deer would have to consume somat like 60kg of 1080 impregnated carrot to die

What about the pellets McJim?

the dead deer I've seen sure as hell didn't eat anywhere near ONE kg.

[scumdog]

Normally I agree with the skeptics, but in this case I do believe thay have got it wrong.

Whilst I haven't seen the technical data or perused any origional studies on lethal doses, I have been through areas of native bush shortly before a 1080 drop and again a week after. The difference is astonishing. Plenty of birdsong and deer sign before the drop, and plenty of silence afterwards. also plenty of dead birds (mostly native) and some dead deer..

I concur.

Same thing everywhere I've been after 1080 was there ahead of me.

Quietness.

Too much quietness.

[Ixion]

What about the pellets McJim?

the dead deer I've seen sure as hell didn't eat anywhere near ONE kg.

Acetates are often sweet. The 1080 must be tasty , or otherwise the possums would not eat it. Perhaps the deer lick the bait ?

Or, it may be that the preparation of the laced carrots is done in the traditional manner. Bert throws a couple of shovelfuls of 1080 into a sack of carrots and shakes the sack a bit.

In which case some deposits may be very much more lethal than others.

[Hitcher]

I'm missing something here. Surely if a hunter's purpose is to wander off into The Great Outdoors(TM) with the intention of killing things, surely they should be delighted if they find their quarry pre-killed? It saves them a job.

I lost a lot of respect I had some time ago for hunters when I learned that some deliberately liberate pest species, particularly pigs, into native ecosystems just so they have something to go and hunt. Fuckers.

If hunters are worried now about the effect that 1080 has on the health and wellbeing of deer and other introduced pests, they should pray each night that New Zealand never has a Foot and Mouth Disease outbreak.

[rainman]

Rainfall renders 1080 useless in a comparatively short space of time.

Semantics. "Useless" rather than "harmless" isn't what's under discussion - the chemistry of the supposed breakdown in water is.

[Hitcher]

Semantics. "Useless" rather than "harmless" isn't what's under discussion - the chemistry of the supposed breakdown in water is.

http://www.ermanz.govt.nz/news-events/focus/1080/hearings/addinfo34.pdf

http://www.landcareresearch.co.nz/publications/downloads/AHB_1080_review.pdf

[Ixion]

This document (http://www.nzfsa.govt.nz/acvm/publications/notes/1080-study-notes.pdf)appears (both from its content and from its source) to be a reasonably neutral synopsis of 1080.

It does not mention degradation to harmless compounds in water. rather the reverse, and notes that the material is readily water soluble.

[Ixion]

Some very basic research appears to show that the degradation of 1080 in water is based on studies of the effect of 1080 entering streams and such like. The degradation is apparently dependant on aquatic plants and invertebrates (which seems a bit odd).

This leaves unaddressed the issue of the poisonous substance being washed off the baits into small local catchments (eg puddles) which might be used as drinking sources by animals (especially if the 1080 content rendered the water "tasty").

I am no green ie (Wot? You guessed. Shit wot are y' psychic or summit?). But I do know that whenever man messes about with nature, the result is almost never what he expects and that the ill effects are almost always much more far reaching than anyone predicted.

I see no reason why possums should not be controlled the good old fashioned way, with lead.

[McJim]

http://www.doc.govt.nz/conservation/threats-and-impacts/animal-pests/pest-control/1080/

Here is the link to real info. A $100,000 industral carrot cutter is used to cut the carrots and apply the 1080, dye and cinammon. It's a bit more technical than shaking a sack! :rofl:

NZ has no native mammals and it's mainly mammals affected by this poison. Dogs are more susceptible thn other animals to the poison. I don't have a dog so this doesn't bother me overly and besides - aren't you supposed to keep your dog on a leash unless it's in your own garden?

[munster]

Of course the Skeptics are unbiased, NOT!

"Members of the NZ Skeptics are involved in various conservation efforts across the country"

"Hyde has a particular interest in this area, having served for eight years on the Possum Biocontrol Bioethics Committee, alongside representatives from Forest & Bird, the RNZSPCA and Ngai Tahu. "

Anyone else care to see photo's of horses with coughed out lungs becuase of 1080 overdrop near Turangi just over a year ago? Not a pretty sight.

[scumdog]

NZ has no native mammals and it's mainly mammals affected by this poison.

NZ has native bats at least - and theyr'e in Southland.

[Ixion]

http://www.doc.govt.nz/conservation/threats-and-impacts/animal-pests/pest-control/1080/

..- aren't you supposed to keep your dog on a leash unless it's in your own garden?


Might make pig hunting a bit tricky?

[scumdog]

Might make pig hunting a bit tricky?

And duck or quail hunting.

[Blackbird]

NZ has native bats at least - and theyr'e in Southland.

And Tongariro National Park:mobile:

[Ixion]

Even more so! Though I suppose the duck hunters could use a very LONG leash.

[ynot slow]

Even more so! Though I suppose the duck hunters could use a very LONG leash.

Well the pig hunting guys with dogs with locator beacons on collars still lose dogs,and never find them,so pretty hard to hunt pigs when dog is on a leash if this is the greeny way to hunt pigs,to ensure dogs don't die from 1080 poisoning.

[duckonin]

To Hitcher and Mcjim, I sit here shaking my head in dispair, it would seem you have been blinded by the same light as most of the NZ public,and that is the "bureaucracy bullshit machine"..You are both a classic example of how it all works, the system has done it's job well, you have believed just what they wanted you to, that is so you can carry on their marvelous work spreading the gospel of F Crap:no:

First hand experience is never forgotton when working in areas contaminated with 1080..SHHHHHHH DID SOMEONE WHISPER?, that is only a part of it..

At a meeting many years back a MAF operater said a person could consume a teaspoon full of 1080 and it would have no effect..I invited him to do this, alas he declinded...:confused:

[Hitcher]

To Hitcher and Mcjim, I sit here shaking my head in dispair, it would seem you have been blinded by the same light as most of the NZ public,and that is the "bureaucracy bullshit machine"..You are both a classic example of how it all works, the system has done it's job well, you have believed just what they wanted you to, that is so you can carry on their marvelous work spreading the gospel of F

So you're happy for possums to spread bovine Tb and destroy New Zealand's biodiversity in the process? For what? So a bunch of gun-toters can wander around potting things when they feel the urge?

Of course 1080 kills things that it's not supposed to. I am certain that DoC and other agencies know this and certainly don't deny it. 1080 may lack precision but it works and there's no viable alternative. There's plenty of evidence to show huge increases in native bird populations after 1080 programmes.

[Skyryder]

The reality with possum control is that 1080 can be dropped into areas that are so difficult to penetrate that both trapping and shooting are impossible. No poison drop is perfect and some casualty will be of a consequnce. Left unchecked possums will destroy much more than 1080 ever will.

Skyryder

[scumdog]

The reality with possum control is that 1080 can be dropped into areas that are so difficult to penetrate that both trapping and shooting are impossible. No poison drop is perfect and some casualty will be of a consequnce. Left unchecked possums will destroy much more than 1080 ever will.

Skyryder

It's the dumb-arsed policy of 'let's poison around the bush edge 'cos that's where the possums come from onto farmland and spread TB' that gets me.

Do they REALLY think the possums from further back don't migrate into the area that's now devoid of possums due to poisoning?

[Pixie]

I also don't think that possums are so bad in NZ, and I don't think there are the number that doc say there are.
.

Unbelievable :oi-grr:

[Pixie]

the only reason we are the last country to use it is because it is the cheapest.



Bullshit:

Sodium fluoroacetate is used as a pesticide especially for mammalian pest species. Farmers and graziers use the poison to protect pastures and crops from various herbivorous mammals. It is used in New Zealand to control the Common Brushtail Possum and rats.[11] In the United States it is used to kill coyotes. Other countries using 1080 include Australia, Mexico, and Israel.[2]

Western Shield is a project to boost populations of endangered mammals in south-west Australia. The project entails distributing fluoroacetate baited meat from the air to kill predators. Wild dogs and foxes will readily eat the baited meat. Cats pose a greater difficulty as cats aren’t interested in already dead animals. Recently a pilot tried putting small sound generators inside the baits with significant positive results.[citation needed] However, an Australian RSPCA commissioned study criticized 1080 calling it an inhumane killer.[12] Some Western Australian herbivores have, by natural selection, developed partial immunity to the effects of fluoroacetate; this aspect has been used for an advantage in DEC’s wildlife conservation project named Western Shield.

[Pixie]

Further to my last post, the cutting below was the lead article in this morning's Peninsula Post. The whole article rambles on a bit, but the property which the protesters invaded, doing a bit of damage en route apparently belongs to two respected conservationists and retired scientists (who are predictably not Greens). Their crime? Allowing one of their paddocks to be used as a landing pad for a chopper dropping 1080.

The tired old "end justifying the means" cliche? Popularised by despots and lunatics round the world.

Conservationists are interested in the environment.
Greenies are just anti-capitalist

[Pixie]

DoC/AHB etc. "1080 is naturally occurring."
Fact: Plants produce fluoroacetic acid, but manufactured 1080 is sodium
monofluoroacetate. Mr. Eason stated (April 2002) "Anyone comparing
1080 poison with the naturally-occurring substance is stupid."

(From http://www.stop1080poison.com/Page10.html)

Bullshit:

Sodium fluoroacetate occurs naturally in at least 40 plants in Australia, Brazil, and Africa. It was first identified in the poison leaf Dichapetalum cymosum by Marais in 1944.[3][4] As early as 1904, colonists in Sierra Leone used extracts of Chailletia toxicaria which also contains fluoroacetic acid or its salts to poison rats.[5][6] It is believed that the compound is even present in tea leaves in tiny amounts.[7] The Australian pea family Gastrolobium (“poison peas”), have sodium fluoroacetate in the leaf tips and seeds. Its occurrence forces livestock farmers in Western Australia to hand-weed their paddocks.

[NDORFN]

If you consider the MASSIVE deforrestation in NZ for farming, cows have caused infinately more damage to NZ's native environment that possums ever could. Also, if you want an idea how dairy farming is further fucking our country up, come to the Waikato and take a look at the rivers. They're absolutely FUCKED. Full of shit, in the name of milk. And here so many people talk of possums as a threat to the industry without considering for a second the threat that the industry has on the environment. It would take several nukes to erradicate possums. Best we can do is pay hunters (unemployed, work-for-the-dolers etc...) to keep the numbers down and people employed.

[NDORFN]

Bullshit:

Sodium fluoroacetate occurs naturally in at least 40 plants in Australia, Brazil, and Africa. It was first identified in the poison leaf Dichapetalum cymosum by Marais in 1944.[3][4] As early as 1904, colonists in Sierra Leone used extracts of Chailletia toxicaria which also contains fluoroacetic acid or its salts to poison rats.[5][6] It is believed that the compound is even present in tea leaves in tiny amounts.[7] The Australian pea family Gastrolobium (“poison peas”), have sodium fluoroacetate in the leaf tips and seeds. Its occurrence forces livestock farmers in Western Australia to hand-weed their paddocks.

You could sit down and have a nice cup of 1080 tea and some scones, maybe do some light reading about reality, or you could actually visit an area after a 1080 drop and see it for yourself.

[Pixie]

You could sit down and have a nice cup of 1080 tea and some scones, maybe do some light reading about reality, or you could actually visit an area after a 1080 drop and see it for yourself.

I live in an area that has been treated.
Never saw any Tui etc. until the poison killed the possums
That's reallity.

Greenies are just religious fanatics-no point in trying to reason with them.
Many hunters don't give a fuck about anything but their pastime.
And the rest of the wankers don't notice the improvement in native species after they have time to recover from pest predation.

[sAsLEX]

1080 breaksdown in Water.

I work with the shit and unless you are a possum you are fine.



Why is the bush quiet after a 1080 drop? That many people have witnessed?



DOC under fire over 1080 Kea deaths

30/07/2008 16:16:12

The Department of Conservation's 1080 poisoning programme is under fire following the death of seven Kea.

The birds died at Fox Glacier after they ate the poison, which was intended to kill possums and rats.

National's conservation spokesman Nick Smith says the incident should see DOC's pest management strategies reviewed as the department is supposed to protect endangered birds, not kill them off.

United Future leader Peter Dunne is labelling the incident "avian genocide" and is demanding DOC be held accountable for what has happened.


If there was any doubt about its efficacy, New Zealand authorities would ban its use in a heartbeat.




1080 is about eradication.

Working well isn't it.... how many years has it been used and still we have possums?



NZ has no native mammals and it's mainly mammals affected by this poison.

Oh you are so well educated about our native fauna, how much of the rest of the stuff you are spouting can be taken as "Fact".


So you're happy for possums to spread bovine Tb and destroy New Zealand's biodiversity in the process? For what?

There's plenty of evidence to show huge increases in native bird populations after 1080 programmes.


DOC under fire over 1080 Kea deaths

30/07/2008 16:16:12

The Department of Conservation's 1080 poisoning programme is under fire following the death of seven Kea.

The birds died at Fox Glacier after they ate the poison, which was intended to kill possums and rats.

National's conservation spokesman Nick Smith says the incident should see DOC's pest management strategies reviewed as the department is supposed to protect endangered birds, not kill them off.

United Future leader Peter Dunne is labelling the incident "avian genocide" and is demanding DOC be held accountable for what has happened.

[Blackbird]

If you consider the MASSIVE deforrestation in NZ for farming, cows have caused infinately more damage to NZ's native environment that possums ever could.

I take it you're talking about historical deforestation? There have been strict controls on native logging for a good few years and they are well-enforced. If you're talking about converting plantation p.radiata forests to dairy farms, the tax breaks ran out 2 years ago so that's pretty much stopped.

Farm runoff is the second biggest polluter of the Waikato. The people of greater Hamilton are the highest.

[NDORFN]

I live in an area that has been treated.
Never saw any Tui etc. until the poison killed the possums
That's reallity.

Greenies are just religious fanatics-no point in trying to reason with them.
Many hunters don't give a fuck about anything but their pastime.
And the rest of the wankers don't notice the improvement in native species after they have time to recover from pest predation.

Greenies are extremists for sure, and are not doing themselves or the cause any favours by conducting themselves as they do. But they're driven by the same concern for our environment as the rest of us. It's not like they come knocking on your door trying to sell you thier beliefs every Sunday morning. The thing with noticing the improvement in native species after they have time to recover is that it happens to be the time between the devastation of a 1080 drop and the recovery of possums in the area. They're here to stay man, we'll never completely get rid of them and unless we introduce a natural enemy (dole bludgers, periodic detentionees, low risk criminals, and generally anyone who yearns to get paid to live in the bush) we'll never have sustained balance.

[98tls]

Greenies are extremists for sure, and are not doing themselves or the cause any favours by conducting themselves as they do. But they're driven by the same concern for our environment as the rest of us. It's not like they come knocking on your door trying to sell you thier beliefs every Sunday morning. The thing with noticing the improvement in native species after they have time to recover is that it happens to be the time between the devastation of a 1080 drop and the recovery of possums in the area. They're here to stay man, we'll never completely get rid of them and unless we introduce a natural enemy (dole bludgers, periodic detentionees, low risk criminals, and generally anyone who yearns to get paid to live in the bush) we'll never have sustained balance. Or we could kill 2 birds with one stone,pack all the dairyfarmers off to the bush to clean up the pests,at least it would give our rivers/streams a break.:jerry:

[NDORFN]

I take it you're talking about historical deforestation? There have been strict controls on native logging for a good few years and they are well-enforced. If you're talking about converting plantation p.radiata forests to dairy farms, the tax breaks ran out 2 years ago so that's pretty much stopped.

Farm runoff is the second biggest polluter of the Waikato. The people of greater Hamilton are the highest.

Yes I'm talking historical deforestation, not current. I'm looking at it from the perspective of someone who puts humans in the same category as animals when considering environmental impact. How do you figure the people of Hamilton are greater polluters than the farms? You been for a walk in the country lately? I wonder if any of the scientists trying to figure out what's killing everything in the gulf have bothered to look up the Waihou for sources of pollution. I grew up here (Matamata) and spent most summers as a kid swiming and eeling in river all around the area (Paeroa down to Putaruru). The water was clean and clear. These days the only waterway in the whole fucking district you'll find is within the first couple of km's of a spring.

[NDORFN]

Or we could kill 2 birds with one stone,pack all the dairyfarmers off to the bush to clean up the pests,at least it would give our rivers/streams a break.:jerry:

Good thinking. The massive leap in national I.Q as a result would contribute hugely toward substituting the dairy industry with high-tech industries.

[Pixie]

Greenies are extremists for sure, and are not doing themselves or the cause any favours by conducting themselves as they do. But they're driven by the same concern for our environment as the rest of us. It's not like they come knocking on your door trying to sell you thier beliefs every Sunday morning. .

Neither do the Brethren.

As for their concern - you are deluded

[Pixie]

Good thinking. The massive leap in national I.Q as a result would contribute hugely toward substituting the dairy industry with high-tech industries.

Back to living in a cave and composting your own shit more like it.


Waaah!:crybaby: I really thought it was a good idea.the greenie dogma.Now I can never make enough dosh,weaving beads and making sandals,to afford a new R1.Or to even pay for carbon taxed fuel.

[scumdog]

Good thinking. The massive leap in national I.Q as a result would contribute hugely toward substituting the dairy industry with high-tech industries.

Especially if they take the drop-kick criminal loosers that they seem to favour as employees...<_<

[NDORFN]

Especially if they take the drop-kick criminal loosers that they seem to favour as employees...<_<

YES! Now we're talking!

[NDORFN]

Back to living in a cave and composting your own shit more like it.

You're a strange dude.

[Blackbird]

How do you figure the people of Hamilton are greater polluters than the farms?

Environment Waikato statistics from sampling take-off points along the Waikato. Our company used to receive them as part of our contribution to pollution control. Of course, pollution is an all-embracing term. In the Waikato river, humans and farm runoff are nitrates (the biggest pollutant), Wairakei geothermal power generation the biggest heavy metals and CHH Pulp and Paper one of the biggest colour loads (bark tannins). Doubt that it's changed much since I retired although I don't know about total pollutants.

Give us FACTS if you're going to argue.

[NDORFN]

Environment Waikato statistics from sampling take-off points along the Waikato. Our company used to receive them as part of our contribution to pollution control. Of course, pollution is an all-embracing term. In the Waikato river, humans and farm runoff are nitrates (the biggest pollutant), Wairakei geothermal power generation the biggest heavy metals and CHH Pulp and Paper one of the biggest colour loads (bark tannins). Doubt that it's changed much since I retired although I don't know about total pollutants.

Give us FACTS if you're going to argue.

I did give facts. First-hand facts. And I haven't argued who's the biggest polluter. I just asked a question... and I wasn't about to argue over who the biggest polluter is because it narrows focus. FACT: ALL contributors to pollution in Waikato waterways, big or small, need to be made accountable and it needs to stop. You disagree?

[Blackbird]

ALL contributors to pollution in Waikato waterways, big or small, need to be made accountable and it needs to stop. You disagree?

Yes, I partially disagree. If you stop all pollution, you stop enjoying all the economic benefits which we all currently enjoy and I doubt that's something which you would support. The so-called "allowable" pollution limits are set by reguatory authorities by and large using the best science available at the time, tempered by the needs of commerce. I might add that in general, these limits are being tightened over time rather than the reverse. There is no easy answer to a certain degree of pollution at the current time. However, I completely agree that deliberate acts of dumping require the full force of the law to be applied.

[Skyryder]

If you consider the MASSIVE deforrestation in NZ for farming, cows have caused infinately more damage to NZ's native environment that possums ever could. Also, if you want an idea how dairy farming is further fucking our country up, come to the Waikato and take a look at the rivers. They're absolutely FUCKED. Full of shit, in the name of milk. And here so many people talk of possums as a threat to the industry without considering for a second the threat that the industry has on the environment. It would take several nukes to erradicate possums. Best we can do is pay hunters (unemployed, work-for-the-dolers etc...) to keep the numbers down and people employed.


Ya don't have to convince me of the damage that the dairy industry is causing.

This self regulatory thing is all bullshit or cowshit............more to the point.

Don't want to get off topic with this but the axing of Burk from the Ecan chair is a case in point. Just when Ecan starts making some inroads into water polution the rural councelors and the Mayors within the Ecan area get into their 'bagging' mode and Burke gets dumped.

Skyryder

[avgas]

"You can never change the world, try something smaller like yourself"
This piece of advice has been followed by some of the greatest people in the world. When you understand how it works you realize all those people out there "forcing change" are achieving nothing, if they can not change themselves and be happy - no one will follow.
I'm not saying 1080 is a good thing, but if i wanted to see it gone - the last thing i would do it point at a problem. I would change myself and look for a better solution. Surely a group of motorcyclist could understand this - I mean when you go around the corner, do you look at that dangerous piece of fenceline to the left? The on-comming car to the right? Or the way around the corner?
If you failed to take the corner - who's fault is it?
Drag that loci of control inside, it has worked for me.

[98tls]

No idea about the Waikato but can speak of Waitaki area,in particular the Kakanui river,its fucked and theres nobody dumping anything into it other than dairy farmers,to make it worse many of them are sucking water directly from it only to have it run back in eventually but full of crap.Aside from what it does to the fish the fact is they have ruined it as a place for local people to spend some time during summer.Bloody annoying that they get away with it here and no doubt plenty of other places around NZ.I am no greenie treehugger type but these guys are just taking the piss

[NDORFN]

Yes, I partially disagree. If you stop all pollution, you stop enjoying all the economic benefits which we all currently enjoy and I doubt that's something which you would support. The so-called "allowable" pollution limits are set by reguatory authorities by and large using the best science available at the time, tempered by the needs of commerce. I might add that in general, these limits are being tightened over time rather than the reverse. There is no easy answer to a certain degree of pollution at the current time. However, I completely agree that deliberate acts of dumping require the full force of the law to be applied.

I am totally prepared to accpet economic consequences of an abrupt end to all pollution of waterways. I may not make as much money as a result, but it would be offset by how much money I'd save engaging in FREE activities involving the use of our waterways ie. swimming as opposed to going to a movie, fishing instead of buying MacDonalds. To a huge extent, people accept pollution as a necessary part of economic stability because we need money for activities that have replaced free activities which we are now unable to partake in due to the fucking pollution. What would you rather have for your kids... the means to provide a big screen TV and a Playstation or the means to provide them with a clean river to fish and swim in? You can't have both.

[Hitcher]

You can't have both.

I disagree. The issue is whether people are prepared to pay the true cost of their lifestyles or to take responsibility for the downstream affects they or their businesses have on the environment.

[NDORFN]

I disagree. The issue is whether people are prepared to pay the true cost of their lifestyles or to take responsibility for the downstream affects they or their businesses have on the environment.

There is no choice anymore. Your generation took it away.

[Blackbird]

There is no choice anymore. Your generation took it away.

Ummm.... previous generations had rather less concern for the environment

[NDORFN]

Ummm.... previous generations had rather less concern for the environment

But the problem is compounded each generation by the increase in population. So each generation has to put in a far greater effort just to cut even with the last.

[Hitcher]

There is no choice anymore. Your generation took it away.

It's nice to see the next generation also refusing to take responsibility for their own actions.

[NDORFN]

It's nice to see the next generation also refusing to take responsibility for their own actions.

We're working on it. Only foreseeable problem, and it's a big one, is that by the time we have the political power to make the changes it will be too late.

[NDORFN]

"You can never change the world, try something smaller like yourself"
This piece of advice has been followed by some of the greatest people in the world. When you understand how it works you realize all those people out there "forcing change" are achieving nothing, if they can not change themselves and be happy - no one will follow.
I'm not saying 1080 is a good thing, but if i wanted to see it gone - the last thing i would do it point at a problem. I would change myself and look for a better solution. Surely a group of motorcyclist could understand this - I mean when you go around the corner, do you look at that dangerous piece of fenceline to the left? The on-comming car to the right? Or the way around the corner?
If you failed to take the corner - who's fault is it?
Drag that loci of control inside, it has worked for me.

Man I can't even remember the last time I made a 1080 poison drop.

[scumdog]

But the problem is compounded each generation by the increase in population. So each generation has to put in a far greater effort just to cut even with the last.

Damn tootin' right - there's waay too many people on this planet.

And the percentage of them that are idiots is too high <_<

[scumdog]

It's nice to see the next generation also refusing to take responsibility for their own actions.

It's the 21st century Hitch...it's always 'somebody elses' fault these days, get with the programme:msn-wink:

[sAsLEX]

But the problem is compounded each generation by the increase in population. So each generation has to put in a far greater effort just to cut even with the last.

Doesn't help when we let so many in the door as well, and our social welfare system rewards large families.

[NDORFN]

Doesn't help when we let so many in the door as well, and our social welfare system rewards large families.

Damn straight.

[98tls]

Doesn't help when we let so many in the door as well, and our social welfare system rewards large families. Nothing like bludgers breeding bludgers to ensure the future existence of a Kiwi icon.

[sAsLEX]

Damn straight.


Nothing like bludgers breeding bludgers to ensure the future existence of a Kiwi icon.

gosh you right wing fascists........ well thats what I get called.....

[NDORFN]

Nothing like bludgers breeding bludgers to ensure the future existence of a Kiwi icon.

If only they did thier breeding in the bush on a diet of possums.

[98tls]

gosh you right wing fascists........ well thats what I get called.....
Not at all,just believe the "working for families " thing is a rather large nail in a small coffin.

[NDORFN]

gosh you right wing fascists........ well thats what I get called.....

Right wing niggaz represent!

[Hitcher]

We're working on it. Only foreseeable problem, and it's a big one, is that by the time we have the political power to make the changes it will be too late.

You've got as much political power now as you'll ever have. You just have to overcome apathy and you'll rule the world!

[NDORFN]

You've got as much political power now as you'll ever have. You just have to overcome apathy and you'll rule the world!

Don't you mean save the world?

[Hitcher]

Don't you mean save the world?

I trust you young folks with such a high moral code will know what best to do with the reins of power.

[ynot slow]

Caught a snippet on teletext (yesterdays news tommorrow)about Doc saying basically 1080 is best we can use in a bad situation,that implies we acknowledge it isn't perfect(maybe means they know it kills indescriminately in places)but best we can use for the time.

[davebullet]

Possums have to go but there must be a better way

Genetically engineered cannibalistic possum!

[NDORFN]

I trust you young folks with such a high moral code will know what best to do with the reins of power.

Good to see you believe in evolution.

[Swoop]

...many of them are sucking water directly from it...



I am no greenie treehugger type but these guys are just taking the piss
Huh? You just said they are taking the water...:scratch::whistle:

[sAsLEX]

Here is a question for you Hitcher.

If they can add bird repellent to 1080 to reduce the by-kill of native birds, why is this not done as standard?

[Hitcher]

Here is a question for you Hitcher.

If they can add bird repellent to 1080 to reduce the by-kill of native birds, why is this not done as standard?

Who is "they"?

[sAsLEX]

Who is "they"?

Who is the one organisation in the world that uses 1080.....

[Hitcher]

Who is the one organisation in the world that uses 1080.....

I can think of more than one: DoC, Animal Health Board, and probably every regional council in the country. There are probably others too.

[sAsLEX]

I can think of more than one: DoC, Animal Health Board, and probably every regional council in the country. There are probably others too.

Regardless. How can it be justified killing native birds in order to save them, if there is the ability to reduce this risk markedly?