New bike, Annoying problem, Please help.

[mr_fett01]

Hi all,

I have just bought my first bike, second hand. Got a trusty GN250. It was dropped off on Tuesday and I got all my gear on Friday from Wellington Motorcycles and was going to go for my first ride today, this is when my problems started.

I tried to start the bike, the engine turned over but did not start. I added some choke as it had been a few days since it had been dropped off. I tried again and the engine turned over but still did not start. Then I noticed that the neutral light had gone off so I thought maybe I had flooded the engine so I left it for a bit and tried again. Nothing. No light no nothing.

I thought that maybe the battery was flat so I got out the jump leads and tried that. When I connected the last point the engine started whirring which was odd because I had not turned the ignition to on. I disconnected and started to do some reading and the only thing I could come up with is that the ignition switch has failed or a fuse has gone.

Is there anyone out there in the Lower Hutt region that may be able to help. I was gutted when I had fine day and the kids were sleeping and I could not go for my first ride. Any help would be appreciated.

[yachtie10]

Have you made sure
The kill switch is off (i mean it is not activated)
It should be in neutral (as in out of gear)

best of luck

[mr_fett01]

Yes. Kill switch is off and yes it is out off gear. Def think its a electric issue.

[duckonin]

Don't panic it should be a simple fix, there will be someone who can help you..:soon:

[98tls]

Is it a new GN?

[mr_fett01]

No, its not new. its a 2005 that I bought of trade me.

[YellowDog]

Just give the guy you bought it aff a call.

He'll know exactly what is wrong!

[mr_fett01]

I have been in contact wit the previous owner and they said they never had an issue like this. Plus when I viewed it it was running fine and they rode it to my house to drop it off.

[98tls]

Losing the neutral light is odd,wonder if you have blown a fuse when you tried jump starting it? fuses have you checked them?If it was flooded chances are you would have smelt it,aside from that i dunno,from cold regardless of time not run i would suggest using the choke first up fwiw.Whirring noise could only be the starter motor.Gns have come a long way since i had anything to do with them,are they clutch in or it wont start?Sidestand switch etc?

[YellowDog]

If the ignition light have come on, why don't you try bump starting it down a short hill in second gear.

[Mschvs]

Problem is .... you bought a GN250 .......



JK

[paddy]

I don't have a GN myself - so I don't know where all of the switches are and what they look like. That's not much help there. Given it's your first bike, that you are a new rider, and that it sounded like it was running fine before, I'm inclined to think that it's "user error" rather than a problem with the bike. Don't get me wrong - I don't mean that in an offensive way at all. Hopefully there are some Kiwibikers that are down your way and can swing by but in the meantime:

Fuel cock:
There will be a tap under the (left?) edge of the fuel tank. This probably has three positions: off, on, and reserve. Off is obviously off. On allows you to drain most but not all of the fuel from the tank. Reserve will let you empty the tank. I don't know if the GN has a fuel gauge or not but back in the day most bikes didn't. The idea was you rode with the petcock in the "on" position until the engine faltered and then moved to the reserve position in order to ride to the next closes petrol station.

Fuel contents:
Obviously it will be harder to start if the fuel tank is empty. You might laugh but plenty of more experienced bikers have been there. Seems to happen more often if you have a kickstart for some reason.

Neutral:
The neutral light should be on if the bike is in neutral (baring a blown bulb or other electrical issue). The bike won't turn over (or will lurch forwards) if you try and start it in gear. You also won't be able to push the bike more than a few inches if it is not in neutral. Neutral can be a pig to find on some bikes.

Kill switch:
In addition to the ignition you will have a "kill" switch on the right? handlebar. I can't tell you what position this will need to be in as I don't have a GN but mine has a nice picture beside it. I guess yours will be similar.

Choke:
You will probably need the choke fairly well open to start from cold. You can also twist the throttle through a couple of full turns before you start the bike. This will squirt some fuel directly into the carburettor.

Jump starting:
If you are trying to jump start - make sure the bike is 12 volts. Some are 6 volts. Forget push/crash starting until you have some riding experience under your belt. Otherwise it will be just that: crash starting.

Hope that helps. Sorry I'm not any closer. Good luck.

P.

[mr_fett01]

There are no lights at all, ignition\neutral\headlights. I think maybe a fuse blew. Not sure if there is a sidestand switch on this bike. I couldnt see anything visible.

Can I get a fuse from any hardware store or does it have to be a bike shop?

[98tls]

Problem is .... you bought a GN250 .......



JK Pot calling kettle black. JK

[paddy]

It's probably a blade fuse (unless it's an older bike). It will be just like the ones in your car (unless it's an older car). They are all coloured. Just make sure you put one in of the same colour. The just pull out. You should be able to look through it sideways and see if the "filament" is blown. Repco, Supercheap Auto, The Warehouse, auto electricians, bikes shops, etcetera should all have them.

[Mom]

There are no lights at all, ignition\neutral\headlights. I think maybe a fuse blew. Not sure if there is a sidestand switch on this bike. I couldnt see anything visible.

Can I get a fuse from any hardware store or does it have to be a bike shop?

Have you flattend the battery attempting to start it?

Yes you can buy fuses from anywhere.

The GN does not have a sidestand switch.

[mr_fett01]

Ok, So i have taken off the side panel that holds the battery and the there is a fuse of some sort that is inside a plastic sheath and is clipped to the side of the battery case. It appears to be blown. I think it says 15 amps on it. Could be the problem.

Would this be the right fuse?

[YellowDog]

Find the fuse board and see whichh one(s) has blown.

If there are no lights, the battery may be dead. Give it a charge after today's serious drain.

If the bike is in gear and the stand is down, the engine will not start.

Keep playing with the gear shift and rocking the bike until you find neutral. When you find it, the bike will roll freely.

Don't panic, completely dead is afr easier to fix than sort of dead.

Get a mate round, just for a view from outside of the box.

[YellowDog]

Ok, So i have taken off the side panel that holds the battery and the there is a fuse of some sort that is inside a plastic sheath and is clipped to the side of the battery case. It appears to be blown. I think it says 15 amps on it. Could be the problem.

Would this be the right fuse?
Sounds like the easiest fix in history.

Well done!

[paddy]

If it's blown I would say it's causing SOME problem. May not be the ignition problem but it seems likely to me. The battery will feed the starter motor directly via a relay (the may be a fusible link in the wire but that won't be visually obvious). The relay will be triggered by the ignition switch which is probably fed via the fuse. Time to raid the car. In fact the car fusebox probably has spares (unless you've replaced fuses and not replaced them in the past).

[Vern]

Ok, So i have taken off the side panel that holds the battery and the there is a fuse of some sort that is inside a plastic sheath and is clipped to the side of the battery case. It appears to be blown. I think it says 15 amps on it. Could be the problem.

Would this be the right fuse?

Yes I would think so as 15 amp is what it should have in it. Good luck it is not nice to have problems when you first get your bike. Just check that there is fuel getting to the carb when you are ready to start it. Vern

[Paul in NZ]

Oh dear.... I'm going into town tomorrow and thus wasting my day off (long story, you wont care).

I'll check KB before I leave and if you still need help PM me you cell number

[mr_fett01]

Thanks for that but I dont have the ability to PM people yet. As far as I can tell. Not been a member for long enough. Or maybe I can....

[BASS-TREBLE]

Just to let you know, that is the only fuse on a GN, there are no others.

Until weather warms up, always start with full choke, once its running adjust choke to take revs down to about 2k for a min or so, then turn choke off. You'll get used to it mate.

Don't forget to turn fuel on

[Paul in NZ]

Thanks for that but I dont have the ability to PM people yet. As far as I can tell. Not been a member for long enough. Or maybe I can....

OK - txt me if you are stuck - 027 249 9959

I'm going into town to meet the lucious Vicki at the airport 2:24 and can come back via the Hutt. Be warned, I could be wearing waders and smelling of fish...

[mr_fett01]

I will try and get some fuses tomorrow and try again after fitting. Might pick up a battery recharger too and give it a good charge, see if that works.

[Laxi]

I will try and get some fuses tomorrow and try again after fitting. Might pick up a battery recharger too and give it a good charge, see if that works.

can lend you a charger if you want?

[Paul in NZ]

I will try and get some fuses tomorrow and try again after fitting. Might pick up a battery recharger too and give it a good charge, see if that works.

Good idea but that does take time and please - take the bloody battery out of the bike first...

[98tls]

OK - txt me if you are stuck - 027 249 9959

I'm going into town to meet the lucious Vicki at the airport 2:24 and can come back via the Hutt. Be warned, I could be wearing waders and smelling of fish... :doh:Theres always a price to pay.

[Paul in NZ]

:doh:Theres always a price to pay.

Yeah - that did sound sus eh... Poor guy prob thinks I'm some kinda perv (I am - but not this time) but I'm going to enjoy a surf cast around seatoun....

[Dafe]

Can also help if you out if needed.

I have a full range of fuses. What type do you need?

Don't buy a charger, I'll loan you mine if you need it.

I'll bring my multimeter and fault find the Ginny's fault for you.

Won't be a major since it's a Suzuki. Probably just some crappy Yamaha/Honda part that's made it's way into the system.

Sent you my number via PM.

[Paul in NZ]

I love these 'please help' threads followed by kind offers and a thunderous silence from the original poster...

[paddy]

I am an idiot and got confused as to what thread I was responding to.

[paddy]

How's it going mr_fett01?

[mr_fett01]

Update.

This afternoon I got some fuses and replaced that, Dafe was kind enough to pop round and help troubleshoot. He identified that the battery was dead flat so that was put on charge. I have just reconnected the battery and the engine started turning over as soon as i started to connect the second screw. There was no key in the ignition.

Any thoughts.

[paddy]

Hmmm....you're probably going to need a multimeter to go any further. It sounds like the start solenoid may be stuck in the on position (do bikes have those?) or maybe the the contacts in the ignition switch are fused?

[Paul in NZ]

Oh dear.... Tell me if I've got this wrong but...

Seller turns up on bike, it seems to go OK.

Next day, it turns over and over but won't fire up?

You hook up the jumper leads, still turns over but no go??

Battery is flat

Charge battery, bike turns over when you reconnect semi charged battery?

Bike is turning over without key in ignition (does it fire?)

Somethings odd here - is there any chance you connected the jumper leads backwards for an instant?

[Paul in NZ]

Hmmm....you're probably going to need a multimeter to go any further. It sounds like the start solenoid may be stuck in the on position (do bikes have those?) or maybe the the contacts in the ignition switch are fused?

Only ones with electric starters

[mr_fett01]

Oh dear.... Tell me if I've got this wrong but...

Seller turns up on bike, it seems to go OK.

Next day, it turns over and over but won't fire up?

You hook up the jumper leads, still turns over but no go??

Battery is flat

Charge battery, bike turns over when you reconnect semi charged battery?

Bike is turning over without key in ignition (does it fire?)

Somethings odd here - is there any chance you connected the jumper leads backwards for an instant?

That is basically right. It was about 4 days later that I tried to start it. Err pretty sure I got the cables the right way when I tried to jump it... No it didnt fire.

[YellowDog]

Does the neutral light now illuminate?

Does the RED ingnition light come on?

If you haven't swapped any wires over, then you have a stuck starter relay and this is why the 15 amp fuse blew. It will blow again if you leave it connected.

Easily replaced.

[Paul in NZ]

OK.... Pull the battery and give it a proper charge, say over night at least and make sure the fluid levels are up to the mark.

More questions,

Do you work in town during the week?

Can you use a multimeter and a hydrometer??

Or - if you are not in a real hurry I can try and pop over after work 1 night? If not, do you have a trailer or a van? You could haul it here to kapiti next weekend and I could drink beer and pull it to bits... <_<

[Paul in NZ]

Does the neutral light now illuminate?

Does the RED ingnition light come on?

If you haven't swapped any wires over, then you have a stuck starter relay and this is why the 15 amp fuse blew. It will blow again if you leave it connected.

Easily replaced.

Kinda what i was thinking but it may have another issue too - remember its not firing. I was more thinking about sussing the leads to the battery, sometimes theres an extra one that energises the starter relay (I think - only 1 of my bikes has a pesky starter motor, useless invention)

[hutchy52]

Does the neutral light now illuminate?

Does the RED ingnition light come on?

If you haven't swapped any wires over, then you have a stuck starter relay and this is why the 15 amp fuse blew. It will blow again if you leave it connected.

Easily replaced.

Yeah, sticking starter relay is my guess, that is why the starter motor would be turning over without the key on.

[hutchy52]

Kinda what i was thinking but it may have another issue too - remember its not firing. I was more thinking about sussing the leads to the battery, sometimes theres an extra one that energises the starter relay (I think - only 1 of my bikes has a pesky starter motor, useless invention)

The reason the starter motor can turn over and the bike not fire is because the starter relay is giving the starter power because the circuit is sticking closed, but the ignition coil won't be firing the spark plugs because it is not connected to the dodgey relay.

[Pedrostt500]

The reason the starter motor can turn over and the bike not fire is because the starter relay is giving the starter power because the circuit is sticking closed, but the ignition coil won't be firing the spark plugs because it is not connected to the dodgey relay.

My old BMW would do this, I would just give the relay a tap, and it would work ok after.
have PMd offer to take a look, but no promise of cure.

[mr_fett01]

I have not changed any wires or anything from when the bike was dropped off.

When I reconnected the charged battery it sparked like crazy, this is at the same time it was trying to turn over.

I think that the battery is ok.

I suspect that this was inevitable. I dont suppose I have any come back on the people I bought it off if I end up having to fork out money to fix it.

Thanks for the offer pedro. I may yet ask for some help. I am conversing with Dafe at the moment and I will see if he is able to help, if not then I will call up on you.

[paddy]

I have not changed any wires or anything from when the bike was dropped off.

When I reconnected the charged battery it sparked like crazy, this is at the same time it was trying to turn over.

I think that the battery is ok.

I suspect that this was inevitable. I dont suppose I have any come back on the people I bought it off if I end up having to fork out money to fix it.

Thanks for the offer pedro. I may yet ask for some help. I am conversing with Dafe at the moment and I will see if he is able to help, if not then I will call up on you.

The sparking is just because the starter motor draws a lot of current - so that in and off itself is nothing to worry about. If it wasn't trying to turn over you wouldn't have seen that (or it would have been insignificant). A relay is a $5 part. It has moving bits inside so it can break. Don't panic all is not lost. :-)

[mr_fett01]

where abouts on the bike is the relay located?

[paddy]

where abouts on the bike is the relay located?

I don't have a GN myself (anyone else out there?) but I would expect it to be fairly near the fuse and fairly near the battery. It will look something like this:

http://www.made-in-china.com/image/2f0j00GIaTEntRzpQZM/Automotive-Relay-NRA04-.jpg

[mr_fett01]

OK, I see that part. I was able to take it off. When I did the engine still tried to turn over when I connected the battery. Is this normal? Will a new relay stop that from happening?

[paddy]

OK, I see that part. I was able to take it off. When I did the engine still tried to turn over when I connected the battery. Is this normal? Will a new relay stop that from happening?

It's not the relay then. This was where my earlier question about starter solenoids came from. I think you probably need a friendly KBer to stop by and take a look for you... It's a wee bit of a drive for me though. :-)

[Dafe]

I recall seeing a homeboy wiring job where the starter relay was, like someone has taped over heaps of wiring with insulation tape. You may want to see if there is a short happening in there, It's quite possible that thats all it is.

[mr_fett01]

I cant thank you people enough.

Its great to know there are people out there willing to help others. Will have another look at that wiring and see.

[mr_fett01]

I recall seeing a homeboy wiring job where the starter relay was, like someone has taped over heaps of wiring with insulation tape. You may want to see if there is a short happening in there, It's quite possible that thats all it is.


Hey,

I check the wiring near the starter relay and couldnt see any taped wiring. I would really appreciate it if you could take another look now that the battery is charged. Let me know when suits.

[Paul in NZ]

The reason the starter motor can turn over and the bike not fire is because the starter relay is giving the starter power because the circuit is sticking closed, but the ignition coil won't be firing the spark plugs because it is not connected to the dodgey relay.

Um yup - I get that but this is a new fault - not the original one...

[YellowDog]

Do try not to knacker tha battery before anyone gets there.

Download the bikes manual and try and locate the correct relay for the starter.

Maybe if you go and buy one (and some spare fuses), you will be able to marry it up with what is already there.

Good luck.

[Chrisnewtobikes]

Check the inline fuse from the battery,Iv got a gn and live in parapararumu,so not to far away,there is not much that can go wrong and should be easy to find the problem:wari:Great bike to learn on lot of fun:wari:

[mr_fett01]

I have changed the fuse plus I have spares. I wont piss around too much with the battery until someone can have a look.

[YellowDog]

Yeah, sticking starter relay is my guess, that is why the starter motor would be turning over without the key on.
I would agree with this and I am wondering if you gave it a good thump (once you've located it), it may reset itself.

[mr_fett01]

It's not the relay then. This was where my earlier question about starter solenoids came from. I think you probably need a friendly KBer to stop by and take a look for you... It's a wee bit of a drive for me though. :-)

Thanks for the input but Paddy reckons that it is something else.

[paddy]

Thanks for the input but Paddy reckons that it is something else.

Just to clarify (unless I've misunderstood along the way) - mr_fett01 removed the relay and the starter still turned over when he connected the battery.

That got me wondering if a motorcycle starter worked like a car starter where the battery is always connected to the starter via a thick cable and then there is a "trigger" line - probably powered by the aforementioned starter relay - this causes the starter solenoid to push the starter pin forward engaging with the gear on the flywheel and at the same time makes electrical contact thus energising the starter motor coils.

Me, it's start by bashing the starter motor with a rubber mallet.

Of course - my understand of a motorcycle's starter motor could be completely off-base. I am no expert.

[mr_fett01]

I just got a quoted price for a Starter relay switch $138, seems a little expensive to me.

[paddy]

Take up one of the local KBer's on their offers to come and have a look before you go-a-spendin'.

[mr_fett01]

yeah, i will. thanks.

[mr_fett01]

Ok, update.

I have had a we look at the the wires that come out of the starter relay behind the battery and a yellow wire seemed to be pulled quite tight. I pulled a wee bit of slack through and gave the cylinder a we bit of a poke with a screwdriver.

I tested the battery connection and hey presto no sparks. I screwed the battery connector on, again with no sparking and tried the ignition. Low and behold the bastard thing started.

I turned it off and then tried it again. Started.

So it looks like it may be a slightly dodgy wire. Will keep an eye on it but will try and get someone to replace the wire and maybe check the starter.

[paddy]

Cool! I bet you know more than you knew before as well. Welcome to the journey...

[Dafe]

Well done, Great job. You'll be stoked!