Another one for the IT boys (network problems)

[Indiana_Jones]

Hey guys, got a bit of a problem, here's the situation:

Hae a combined router and modem, and have 3 PCs plugged into it.

When the first 2 PCs (both running XP) are plugged it the net works fine.

But the moment we plug the third one (Running Vista *shudder*) the net dies.

Now the network itself seems to still work etc, just the internet dies/goes incredibly slow.

Any ideas guys?

Cheers

-Indy

[MattRSK]

I have had this problem. Could never figure it out. Hope that helps.

[Indiana_Jones]

I have had this problem. Could never figure it out. Hope that helps.

lol thanks Matt

-Indy

[paddy]

Okay, well to start with I am going to ask you a whole bunch of questions:

1) What happens if the Vista PC is connected by itself (without the other machines)?
2) How are you measuring "speed"?
3) Does the slowdown affect only the internet or PC<->PC transfers (you may need to configure file sharing to confirm this one).
4) Do the lights on your router start flashing a whole lot more when you connect the Vista machine?
5) Does the slowdown happen immediately?
6) Are you using DHCP on the router - could the Vista machine be using an IP address that is already assigned? Check all three machines and make sure they are different (and different to the router as well).
7) Does it mater which ports the machines are plugged into? Does re-arranging the machines yield exactly the same results?
8) Is it possible the Vista machine is just busy downloading updates? What happens if you leave it connected overnight?

None of the above is going to solve your problem, but the answer will help to narrow it down.

P.

[Usarka]

Is it turned on?

[paddy]

Is it turned on?

You referring to Indy?

[Usarka]

You referring to Indy?

It might be his pr0n server.

[ManDownUnder]

IP conflict

[Usarka]

Turn off ip-sex or IPv6 or something like that. Still think you need to reboot.

[Indiana_Jones]

Okay, well to start with I am going to ask you a whole bunch of questions:

1) What happens if the Vista PC is connected by itself (without the other machines)?

The net doesn't work on it when it's solo

2) How are you measuring "speed"?

Well I say it's slow as it doesn't load or takes a few mintues to load google

3) Does the slowdown affect only the internet or PC<->PC transfers (you may need to configure file sharing to confirm this one).

It only affects the internet as far as I can see (you may need to tell me how to check for sure)

4) Do the lights on your router start flashing a whole lot more when you connect the Vista machine?

Yes, yes they do flash more

5) Does the slowdown happen immediately?

yep, the moment i put it in the shit hits the fan and goes fine the moment i pull it out

That sounds dirty lol

6) Are you using DHCP on the router - could the Vista machine be using an IP address that is already assigned? Check all three machines and make sure they are different (and different to the router as well).


The router settings inform me DHCP server is "on"

7) Does it mater which ports the machines are plugged into? Does re-arranging the machines yield exactly the same results?

Switching ports makes no difference

8) Is it possible the Vista machine is just busy downloading updates? What happens if you leave it connected overnight?

I doubt that

None of the above is going to solve your problem, but the answer will help to narrow it down.

P.

Hope that can shed some light. Cheers mate

-Indy

[oldguy]

Ive got 2 PCs running XP and 1 running Vista on my home network and have no problems, sorry don't know how to fix yours.

I am disappointed in Vista thou, got sucked into the hipe, I have to do all my iso file, mounting/burning on XP, why I need the network to transfer files between machines.

[paddy]

Hi Indy,

With all three machines connected can you run the following on each machine and copy/paste the output here:

C:\> ipconfig /all
C:\> route print

You will need to run these at the "command prompt". This is probably easiest to get to by going "Start->Run" and then typing "cmd" and pressing okay. Not sure where Start->Run lives under Vista off-hand.

Based on your answers it's most likely that you have an IP conflict. IP addresses are like the postal address of your machine(s). The router will have a fixed address and will assign addresses to clients using DHCP. Without seeing the output of the ipconfig I would guess that the Vista machine is also configured with a fixed address - most likely the same one as the router.

[Indiana_Jones]

Well only 1 XP machine is on atm (other one is off and roommate is sleeping, but this issue is still happening with just one XP and one vista)

XP machine ipconfig report:


Windows IP Configuration

Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : andrew
Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :
Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Unknown
IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
DNS Suffix Search List. . . . . . : Belkin

Ethernet adapter Wireless Network Connection:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : TP-LINK 11b/g Wireless Adapter
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-21-27-F3-42-5E

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . : Belkin
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Atheros AR8121/AR8113 PCI-E Ethernet
Controller
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-22-15-17-B8-F5
Dhcp Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.2.3
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.2.1
DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.2.1
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.2.1
Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : 27 September 2009 14:34:03
Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : 19 January 2038 16:14:07


XP machine 'route print':

================================================== =========================
Interface List
0x1 ........................... MS TCP Loopback interface
0x2 ...00 21 27 f3 42 5e ...... TP-LINK 11b/g Wireless Adapter - Packet Schedule
r Miniport
0x10004 ...00 22 15 17 b8 f5 ...... Atheros AR8121/AR8113 PCI-E Ethernet Control
ler
================================================== =========================
================================================== =========================
Active Routes:
Network Destination Netmask Gateway Interface Metric
0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 192.168.2.1 192.168.2.3 20
127.0.0.0 255.0.0.0 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 1
192.168.2.0 255.255.255.0 192.168.2.3 192.168.2.3 20
192.168.2.3 255.255.255.255 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 20
192.168.2.255 255.255.255.255 192.168.2.3 192.168.2.3 20
224.0.0.0 240.0.0.0 192.168.2.3 192.168.2.3 20
255.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 192.168.2.3 192.168.2.3 1
255.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 192.168.2.3 2 1
Default Gateway: 192.168.2.1
================================================== =========================
Persistent Routes:
None



And the vista ipconfig:


Windows IP Configuration

Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : Ben-PC
Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :
Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Hybrid
IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
DNS Suffix Search List. . . . . . : Belkin

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection 2:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . : Belkin
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Realtek RTL8168B/8111B Family PCI-E Gigab
it Ethernet NIC (NDIS 6.0) #2
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-1A-4D-58-87-3A
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
Link-local IPv6 Address . . . . . : fe80::a1d0:e2db:ffcc:9a86%9(Preferred)
IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.2.2(Preferred)
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : Sunday, 27 September 2009 2:28:29 p.m.
Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : Wednesday, 3 November 2145 9:56:48 p.m.
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.2.1
DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.2.1
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.2.1
NetBIOS over Tcpip. . . . . . . . : Enabled

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Realtek RTL8168B/8111B Family PCI-E Gigab
it Ethernet NIC (NDIS 6.0)
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-1A-4D-58-87-38
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes

Tunnel adapter Local Area Connection* 6:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Teredo Tunneling Pseudo-Interface
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 02-00-54-55-4E-01
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
IPv6 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 2001:0:cf2e:3096:283b:1c9:3f57:fdfd(Prefe
rred)
Link-local IPv6 Address . . . . . : fe80::283b:1c9:3f57:fdfd%10(Preferred)
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : ::
NetBIOS over Tcpip. . . . . . . . : Disabled

Tunnel adapter Local Area Connection* 7:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . : Belkin
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : isatap.Belkin
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-00-00-00-00-00-00-E0
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes

Tunnel adapter Local Area Connection* 9:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Microsoft ISATAP Adapter #2
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-00-00-00-00-00-00-E0
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes


And for the Vista route print:

================================================== =========================
Interface List
9 ...00 1a 4d 58 87 3a ...... Realtek RTL8168B/8111B Family PCI-E Gigabit Ethe
rnet NIC (NDIS 6.0) #2
8 ...00 1a 4d 58 87 38 ...... Realtek RTL8168B/8111B Family PCI-E Gigabit Ethe
rnet NIC (NDIS 6.0)
1 ........................... Software Loopback Interface 1
10 ...02 00 54 55 4e 01 ...... Teredo Tunneling Pseudo-Interface
13 ...00 00 00 00 00 00 00 e0 isatap.Belkin
19 ...00 00 00 00 00 00 00 e0 Microsoft ISATAP Adapter #2
================================================== =========================

IPv4 Route Table
================================================== =========================
Active Routes:
Network Destination Netmask Gateway Interface Metric
0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 192.168.2.1 192.168.2.2 20
127.0.0.0 255.0.0.0 On-link 127.0.0.1 306
127.0.0.1 255.255.255.255 On-link 127.0.0.1 306
127.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 127.0.0.1 306
169.254.0.0 255.255.0.0 On-link 192.168.2.2 30
169.254.255.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 192.168.2.2 276
192.168.2.0 255.255.255.0 On-link 192.168.2.2 276
192.168.2.2 255.255.255.255 On-link 192.168.2.2 276
192.168.2.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 192.168.2.2 276
224.0.0.0 240.0.0.0 On-link 127.0.0.1 306
224.0.0.0 240.0.0.0 On-link 192.168.2.2 276
255.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 127.0.0.1 306
255.255.255.255 255.255.255.255 On-link 192.168.2.2 276
================================================== =========================
Persistent Routes:
None

IPv6 Route Table
================================================== =========================
Active Routes:
If Metric Network Destination Gateway
10 18 ::/0 On-link
1 306 ::1/128 On-link
10 18 2001::/32 On-link
10 266 2001:0:cf2e:3096:283b:1c9:3f57:fdfd/128
On-link
9 276 fe80::/64 On-link
10 266 fe80::/64 On-link
10 266 fe80::283b:1c9:3f57:fdfd/128
On-link
9 276 fe80::a1d0:e2db:ffcc:9a86/128
On-link
1 306 ff00::/8 On-link
10 266 ff00::/8 On-link
9 276 ff00::/8 On-link
================================================== =========================
Persistent Routes:
None





-Indy

[paddy]

Okay. There's nothing wrong with your IP (v4) configuration. At this stage I would recommend disabling IPv6 on the Vista machine. I don't know where that's configured off hand but it will be somewhere in the Network settings.

P.

[YellowDog]

Indy mate, this is nice and easy to sort out (once you find the adapter configuration properties).

The 'ipconfig/all' advice was good however all you need to do is to establsh the address ranges.

You need to look at the other computers settings and then give the Vista unit a unique IP (in the same range), identical subnet mask, same gateway, same DNS AND hey presto.

If you are stuck let me know and I'll pop round and sort it out for you.

The only caution I would advise you of is that a DHCP server will not give out the same IP address twice. If connecting it screws your network, you may have a nasty little virus on your vista unit.

[The Stranger]

Do you know if the vista machine behaves on other networks? Not being there to actually see the problem, I would suggest check the following in order.
1) Check for and remove malware/spyware using say malwarebytes.
2) Uninstall limewire or any peer to peer network apps
3) Disable windoze updates.
4) Disable the DNS Client service
5) Disable all unused or unnecessary protocols such as QOS, IPv6, ipx/spx etc.
6) Download and install either ethereal or wireshark and see what the packets actually are.

[YellowDog]

OK just seen the IPconfig stuff above.

His this been used on the Internet before, perhaps elsewhere?

[batboy]

Any reason that you know of why the vista machine has NetBT enabled?

Can you ping external addresses from either machine when the internet connection dies?
Also have you had this problem from get go? or just recently, might pay to reset the router back to default and reenter your ISP data again?

[marty]

Ive got 2 PCs running XP and 1 running Vista on my home network and have no problems, sorry don't know how to fix yours.

I am disappointed in Vista thou, got sucked into the hipe, I have to do all my iso file, mounting/burning on XP, why I need the network to transfer files between machines.

if you bought a system new in the past few months running Vista, there is a us$20 upgrade to Windows 7, delivery on 24th October. All the barn-type retailers are recommending this, as vista is basically shit unless you have about 5gig of RAM.

[paddy]

Do you know if the vista machine behaves on other networks? Not being there to actually see the problem, I would suggest check the following in order.
1) Check for and remove malware/spyware using say malwarebytes.
2) Uninstall limewire or any peer to peer network apps
3) Disable windoze updates.
4) Disable the DNS Client service
5) Disable all unused or unnecessary protocols such as QOS, IPv6, ipx/spx etc.
6) Download and install either ethereal or wireshark and see what the packets actually are.

Yep - based on the network configurations you provided I don't think this is a configuration issue. I would still disable IPv6 as there is an outside chance that this is causing your issue but to be honest I doubt your router supports it so it is a real outside chance.

It seems much more likely that you have network contention issues. That's covered of in points 1, 2, and 3 in The Strangers post above.

I wouldn't expect DNS Client service, QoS, IPX/SPX, or NetBT as mentioned by others to be the problem although feel free to experiment with the advice others have offered.

I also would default your router as suggested by one poster. That is extremely unlikely to help and is typically a response offered by help-desks to get users to a known state so that their support "script" works. (Remember helpdesk is generally a fairly junior and low paid role.)

As your router will have a switching backplane I don't know how much use Wireshark will be. It might be useful to packet capture on the Vista machine and see if it is generating a whole bunch of traffic or not. If you don't understand TCP/IP though it might be hard to interpret. There is no harm in trying and seeing if it makes any sense to you though. I don't know what level of knowledge you have.

P.

[paddy]

Can you ping external addresses from either machine when the internet connection dies?

I would hazard, based on his description that the answer would be yes but with high-latency and high packet-loss.


Also have you had this problem from get go? or just recently

This would actually be a good question to know the answer to.


might pay to reset the router back to default and reenter your ISP data again?

Noooo...... unless you can offer an actual technical reason for this then it is just a "shotgun" approach to fault diagnosis. He's more likely to end up with no internet on all of his machines and nowhere to post for help.

[batboy]

Noooo...... unless you can offer an actual technical reason for this then it is just a "shotgun" approach to fault diagnosis. He's more likely to end up with no internet on all of his machines and nowhere to post for help.

i agree, but he has stated he has a "flatmate" who runs the other XP machine.
Which in turn could mean there may have ben some tinkering with the router with out OP's knowledge possible for p2p port forwarding which may means incorect DNS server, ppoa/e entries or who knows?
was just a thought, and no im not a low level helpdesk person with limited knowledge, just merely offering another approach is all...no offence taken or meant :third:

[paddy]

i agree, but he has stated he has a "flatmate" who runs the other XP machine.
Which in turn could mean there may have ben some tinkering with the router with out OP's knowledge possible for p2p port forwarding which may means incorect DNS server, ppoa/e entries or who knows?
was just a thought, and no im not a low level helpdesk person with limited knowledge, just merely offering another approach is all...no offence taken or meant :third:

And no offence taken/meant here either. I just didn't want to see him make the problem worse for himself. The router is performing DNS "proxying". This would also fail for the XP machines. In terms of PPPoA/PPPoE issues - again this would almost certainly cause global faults. I can't imagine PAT (port forwarding) being configured in such a way as to cause issues...but as with some other ideas, it's an outside possibility. This of course gets more complicated in the modern setting where you introduce routers support UPnP.

[Squiggles]

Throw the vista machine out the window. Then
<img src="http://apcmag.com/system/files/images/buymac.article-width.jpg"></img>

[The Stranger]

I wouldn't expect DNS Client service,

No you wouldn't (or shouldn't) however it's not that uncommon for the DNS Client service to enter an infinite loop and disappear up it's own arse. Upon reboot it will continue from where it left off.
It's unnecessary, kill it.

[paddy]

No you wouldn't (or shouldn't) however it's not that uncommon for the DNS Client service to enter an infinite loop and disappear up it's own arse. Upon reboot it will continue from where it left off.
It's unnecessary, kill it.

I'm somehow not surprised... still wouldn't expect that to effect the internet access of the XP hosts unless it was generating a huge amount of packets and loading the router - I'm no Windows engineer but I presume that Vista would be pushing those packets out to either it's first DNS server or the DHCP server (which are both the router). I agree though - no harm in disabling it.

[paddy]

No you wouldn't (or shouldn't) however it's not that uncommon for the DNS Client service to enter an infinite loop and disappear up it's own arse. Upon reboot it will continue from where it left off.
It's unnecessary, kill it.

Hmmm...having read a little more - I wouldn't expect that to cause the issues Indy described. I presumed that the DNS Client Service performed the Dynamic Updates but it turns out (according to wikipedia at least) that this is actually performed by the DHCP Client Service. The DNS Client Service is just a caching resolver. And again, unless it decides to make thousands of queries continuously (and therefore loads the router) I wouldn't expect that to affect the other hosts.

[Indiana_Jones]

Well Yellowdog has popped over and had a look, and it seems to be going again, turns out that the vista machine had service pack 2 update waiting to be installed and he thinks that might of been blocking the network.

I'm sure he'll post and explain a lot better then I can

Thanks YD and everyone else for your replies :niceone:

-Indy

[paddy]

Well Yellowdog has popped over and had a look, and it seems to be going again, turns out that the vista machine had service pack 2 update waiting to be installed and he thinks that might of been blocking the network.

I'm sure he'll post and explain a lot better then I can

Thanks YD and everyone else for your replies :niceone:

-Indy

Cool. Glad is working for you!

[YellowDog]

Checked the obvious. All seemed fine.

Logged on to Router. Not great software, but seemed fine.

Tried manual settings on offending PC. Couldn't see external DNS server.

Swiched to second on-board adapter (without any fault finding debris).

Killed processes one by one, but nothing much was going on.

Ran network scanner which revealed bugger all and only three live nodes (correct).

Pinging of DNS servers wasn't happening.

Noticed Vista SP2 awaiting installation. Vista is famous for opening the door for installation and killing everything else to wait for it to happen.

Installed SP2 and all of a sudden (30 minutes later) the world was happy again. Auto and manual setting both OK.

Cannot explain death of network by vista machine (with no activity). Have recommended replacement network adapter.

BUT if it ain't broke (again), don't fix it!

BTW: The Scrambler is a beauty and sounds like heaven :)

[scracha]

But the moment we plug the third one (Running Vista *shudder*) the net dies.

Any ideas guys?

Cheers

-Indy

This is bait right? Everyone knows I love Vista.



Seriously though, why does everyone jump to just blame Vista. It's more likely to be ropey firmware on a router (bar a couple of models, Linksys stuff is generally shite) that they've managed to string together enough that it just works with XP (in between having to restart the router all the time). I've had similar with my ReadyNAS and Netgear refused to accept they were to blame.

Boot up a new Vista box with a UBCD4Win CD often reveals hardware incompatibility problems that are fuck all to do with the OS.

Lots of $hit routers and NICs throw wobblies once gigabit ethernet is thrown into the equation.

Installing packet sniffers etc on a home or small office network is quite frankly overkill. Time is valuable and there comes a point (VERY QUICKLY) where if all else fails, you take the router/modem back to wherever you bought it and tell them it's a steaming piece of shite that's not fit for purpose or you throw it out the window and take the hit on the cost of a new one.



Now who's hosting a Windows 7 party?
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[The Stranger]

This is bait right? Everyone knows I love Vista.



Some idiots loved Windoze Me too.
There's no accounting for taste - or lack of.

[scracha]

Some idiots loved Windoze Me too.
There's no accounting for taste - or lack of.

Runs all my software - check
Starts up in under 1 minute - check
Plug USB thingies into it and they generally just work....often without even needing the driver disc - check
Built in disc imaging with simple GUI - check
Handles photos/music/video pretty fuckin well - check

Best desktop OS ever...what's not to like?

[Indiana_Jones]

Eat your heart out Ronnie Biggs, this is the great thread jacking! lol

-Indy