Green bus lanes (again)

[Velox]

I hear rumours that we can't use all of the green bus lanes? I use the one coming down the hill from Karori, and evidently there was a whole swarm of cops on it this morning. Luckily when I turned up they'd gone, but I thought I was in the clear anyway. I'm sure the diff lanes aren't sign posted as to whether they allow bikes or not, they all just say "buses only". Any ideas? Do any of you Wgtn folk know if we're allowed on the Karori one?

[Wenier]

Ah no you not using the bus lanes and slowing the buses down are ya, ya might make them late like they usually are.

[madboy]

Harden up girlie, you seen the power/weight ratio of those cop bikes? You'd kick ass

[Velox]

Ah no you not using the bus lanes and slowing the buses down are ya, ya might make them late like they usually are.
Watch it boy. :stoogie:


Harden up girlie, you seen the power/weight ratio of those cop bikes? You'd kick ass
They'd still get my plate though! And there's only two escape routes out of Karori.

[Wenier]

Ill be in welly from the 18th till 20th so i might catch up wit ya if possible probably be driving my bros car round thou.

[250learna]

They'd still get my plate though! And there's only two escape routes out of Karori.

havent you ever seen that thing on the net where the guy has a plate that pops up over the real one and says fuck you, you just need a string and some hinges i think :niceone:

[Velox]

Ill be in welly from the 18th till 20th so i might catch up wit ya if possible probably be driving my bros car round thou.
Flick me a pm of when you're free if you want and I'll get a few of the lads to come out for a drink or play pool or something eh? Joe, Hayden and Nick all have new bikes now. :crybaby:


havent you ever seen that thing on the net where the guy has a plate that pops up over the real one and says fuck you, you just need a string and some hinges i think
Yeah, my bike may be a state-of-the-art-machine but I'll wait till my next bike to whack something like that on. You'd have to be careful when you used it though or that could be the end of it.

[sAsLEX]

unless its on a motorway (specificaly the ones up here in aucks) or it has a sign specifically excluding bikes (ie bus lane NO FUCKIN BIKES) then it is open game.

The new laws are not racist toward the colour of the lanes.

[Velox]

Ok - just looked at the WCC site and it says that we can use them all apart from ones that specifically say "buses only" which it reckons (in Wgtn) are....
1) southbound Lambton Quay, 2) Thorndon Quay, 3) the "operations" area at the Lambton interchange.
I thought the Karori one said it too but maybe not.

[madboy]

They'd still get my plate though! You've still got a plate on? WTF for? Extra weight!! Although I find for some strange reason having a plate on improves fuel consumption... :whistle:

That plate tilter thing is on my "to-do" list, along with the billion other things... Apart from the last week I haven't had a need to be plate-less for a good six months so it kinda slipped down the order. Dunno about the motto underneath though, don't wanna offend the 5-0 as I batter their egos.

[sAsLEX]

Ok - just looked at the WCC site and it says that we can use them all apart from ones that specifically say "buses only" which it reckons (in Wgtn) are....
1) southbound Lambton Quay, 2) Thorndon Quay, 3) the "operations" area at the Lambton interchange.
I thought the Karori one said it too but maybe not.

i thought it had to specifically exclude us, as in "no bikes" rather than only buses, but meh nobody let alon the council can get their heads around laws passed in this country

[flyin]

don't they all say buses only on the road?.... I ride in the ones on Lambton Quay, the bus drivers give me no end of shite....... really scary at the time as they r driving their bus, their manager is alot nicer about it though.

I have spoken with the complaints dept at stagecoach a few times, and sent letters.... hope I've got sum nutter drivers fired!!!

[XP@]

I hear rumours that we can't use all of the green bus lanes? I use the one coming down the hill from Karori, and evidently there was a whole swarm of cops on it this morning. Luckily when I turned up they'd gone, but I thought I was in the clear anyway. I'm sure the diff lanes aren't sign posted as to whether they allow bikes or not, they all just say "buses only". Any ideas? Do any of you Wgtn folk know if we're allowed on the Karori one?

If they don't want us on the lane then they have to SPECIFICALLY exclude us. So, if you get 'caught', don't pay the fine argue the case.
If a bus tries to argue with you then take um on, coz you are harder... hmmm well maybe not...

LTSA FAQ sheet (http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/road-user-safety/new-road-rules/rur-qas.html)


Bus lanes

Can I cycle in a bus lane?
Yes, you can, unless specifically excluded by signs.

Who has priority – cyclists or buses?
A bus lane is treated as a shared facility, which means no-one has priority – but the law says that neither should impede the other unnecessarily.

Doesn’t letting cyclists use bus lanes endanger them even further?
No, because they are separated from the majority of the traffic and, therefore, are more visible to other motorists.

If buses have to stop in a bus lane to pick up or let off passengers, won’t they be obstructing cyclists when they do so?
Yes. In this case, cyclists can decide whether they want to wait behind the bus, or carefully pass the bus on the right-hand side.

Can motorcycles use bus lanes?
Yes, unless specifically excluded by signs.

How do I know it’s a bus lane?
The words BUS LANE will be marked on the road, indicating the lane is for this purpose.

Can taxis use bus lanes?
No, not unless the local council has specifically created a lane for use by buses and taxis.

Can I use a bus lane on the weekend, when there’s hardly any buses about?
Generally, no. However, in some cases councils may designate lanes as bus lanes during specific time periods (eg peak hours) and other vehicles may be able to use the lane outside these hours. If this is the case, signs will indicate the time period in which the lane operates as a bus lane.

[XP@]

don't they all say buses only on the road?.... I ride in the ones on Lambton Quay, the bus drivers give me no end of shite....... really scary at the time as they r driving their bus, their manager is alot nicer about it though.

I have spoken with the complaints dept at stagecoach a few times, and sent letters.... hope I've got sum nutter drivers fired!!!
I complained to the cops once because I was at the end of lambtonQ at the lights, I pulled away then managed to put my foot in the open door of the bus that was barging past, hitting my elbow twice, i hit the horn. I was mm's away from hitting the car in front cos the bus was overtaking it too... long and short, I survived with no visible damage. followed the bus driver parked in front at the bus station, gave him a polite warning.... geeze I am getting pissed off writing this... he thretened to drive over my bike... told me he didn't see me ...

The police did FUCK ALL!

[FROSTY]

dunno about wellytown but in dorkland the bus lanes in the city are ok but not on the motorways

[flyin]

yeah those bus drivers are farkin crazy!! whenever i ride through the depot in the mornin they all have a go at me!!
I had a driver stop in the middle of lambton Q, corner of stout st, blocking traffic with passnegers on board, Driver got out of his bus and began abusing me for riding in the bus lane......... Twas the middle of the day and this guy was goin off at me, hollerin and rantin, i laughed at him!! then said loudly - "you just tried to knock my off my bike with a BUS and your saying i'm a wanker?" - the looks he got from everyone on the street..... hehe
that one provoked a few letters and phone calls!

[ManDownUnder]

I had seom fun with Transit regarding the "Buses Only" not being a specific exclusion to bikes, and likewise a sign that said

Bus Lane, 6:30am - 9:30am, Buses Only (did it mean the 6:30am-9:30 am meant it is not a bus lane outside those hours, did it mean buses only inside those hours, or a combination of the two?))

===
MDU I am sorry it has taken so long for me to get back to you on your query regarding bus lane signs.

The Road User Rule defines a bus lane as "means a lane reserved by a marking or sign installed at the start of the lane and at each point at which the lane resumes after an intersection for the use of (a) buses, and (b) cycles and motorcycles (unless either or both are specifically excluded by the sign)."

A Bus Lane sign is in the form of symbol of a bus above the word LANE. When the lane is available only for buses the sign takes the form of a symbol of a bus with the word ONLY. Similarly the road marking used is BUS LANE or BUS ONLY respectively. These signs and markings are defined in the Land Transport Rule: Traffic Control Devices 2004. While it might be argued a bus from which cycles and motorcycles have been excluded might be more explicitly stated (eg BUS LANE, CYCLES AND MOTORCYCLES EXCLUDED) you will be aware of the need to keep signs as simple yet as clear as they can be made. It is considered the BUS ONLY message provides both the simplicity and clarity required.

The lanes in Auckland City are largely Bus Lanes (although I understand there are some small section of lanes which are exclusively for buses). The lanes on the motorways are exclusively for buses during the periods described. At other times these are 'emergency stopping lanes' and may then only be used for the purposes of stopping in an emergency ie not as a normal lane.

The use of the lanes are defined by road controlling authority bylaws and this may include the time they apply and the classes of vehicles to which they apply. The authority is Auckland City Council in the case of Auckland City, and Transit New Zealand for state highways - ie motorways. Once applied the Road User Rules defines road user obligations in regard to their use. Thus unless you are driving a vehicle of the class defines you may not drive along the lane nor may you park and you may only cross them if turning or moving into a car park on the other side of the lane.

I hope this clarifies the situation for you. Once again I apologise for the delay in replying.

R A (Bob) Gibson
Senior Engineer

[sAsLEX]

Similarly the road marking used is BUS LANE or BUS ONLY respectively. These signs and markings are defined in the Land Transport Rule: Traffic Control Devices 2004. While it might be argued a bus from which cycles and motorcycles have been excluded might be more explicitly stated (eg BUS LANE, CYCLES AND MOTORCYCLES EXCLUDED) you will be aware of the need to keep signs as simple yet as clear as they can be made. It is considered the BUS ONLY message provides both the simplicity and clarity required.


translation "we are to lazy to change into line with the new law requiring specific exclusion of vehicles not allowed to use the bus lanes"

[250learna]

I complained to the cops once because I was at the end of lambtonQ at the lights, I pulled away then managed to put my foot in the open door of the bus that was barging past, hitting my elbow twice, i hit the horn. I was mm's away from hitting the car in front cos the bus was overtaking it too... long and short, I survived with no visible damage. followed the bus driver parked in front at the bus station, gave him a polite warning.... geeze I am getting pissed off writing this... he thretened to drive over my bike... told me he didn't see me ...

The police did FUCK ALL!

I found that to be the case every time i made a complaint... im sad to say but in my experiences its more of a waste of time than anything to even talk to them, only ever got called back ones. I have rung them and they said they still have to process the case... never herd from again. :shake: must be too busy trying to give speeding tickets on straight roads

[Velox]

Thanks MDU!
So to sum it up - we can use "Bus Lanes" but not "Bus Only Lanes."

[Ms Piggy]

Ok - just looked at the WCC site and it says that we can use them all apart from ones that specifically say "buses only" which it reckons (in Wgtn) are....
1) southbound Lambton Quay, 2) Thorndon Quay, 3) the "operations" area at the Lambton interchange.
I thought the Karori one said it too but maybe not.
Thanks for the info Missy :niceone:

[ManDownUnder]

Thanks MDU!
So to sum it up - we can use "Bus Lanes" but not "Bus Only Lanes."

You've got it! Enjoy them!

MDU

[Hitcher]

The Boys were busy re-greening the Ngaio Gorge bus lane the other night. The green paint there only lasts a few days before it disappears. What a waste of time. And money. And green paint.

[XP@]

I was feeling particularly beligerent last night so i took a ride aroung the lambton bus lanes...

and hey I noticed that the work ONLY has been greened out! Therefore you can ride the lanes! Their web site must be out of date.

So folks, go green in the CBD!

[sAsLEX]

I had seom fun with Transit regarding the "Buses Only" not being a specific exclusion to bikes, and likewise a sign that said

Bus Lane, 6:30am - 9:30am, Buses Only (did it mean the 6:30am-9:30 am meant it is not a bus lane outside those hours, did it mean buses only inside those hours, or a combination of the two?))

===
MDU I am sorry it has taken so long for me to get back to you on your query regarding bus lane signs.

The Road User Rule defines a bus lane as "means a lane reserved by a marking or sign installed at the start of the lane and at each point at which the lane resumes after an intersection for the use of (a) buses, and (b) cycles and motorcycles (unless either or both are specifically excluded by the sign)."

A Bus Lane sign is in the form of symbol of a bus above the word LANE. When the lane is available only for buses the sign takes the form of a symbol of a bus with the word ONLY. Similarly the road marking used is BUS LANE or BUS ONLY respectively. These signs and markings are defined in the Land Transport Rule: Traffic Control Devices 2004. While it might be argued a bus from which cycles and motorcycles have been excluded might be more explicitly stated (eg BUS LANE, CYCLES AND MOTORCYCLES EXCLUDED) you will be aware of the need to keep signs as simple yet as clear as they can be made. It is considered the BUS ONLY message provides both the simplicity and clarity required.



They consider that this message above fufills the law, but obviously from his own statement it doesn't as we must be "SPECIFICALLY" excluded, BUS ONLY does not do this so I personally will still use the BUS ONLY lanes and will let you know how I get on if they ever catch me up!!

[ManDownUnder]

They consider that this message above fufills the law, but obviously from his own statement it doesn't as we must be "SPECIFICALLY" excluded, BUS ONLY does not do this so I personally will still use the BUS ONLY lanes and will let you know how I get on if they ever catch me up!!

Yeah well...

From what I recall of Statutory Interpretation there are a couple of approaches.

1) The Golden Rule. Interpret it the way it was intended (i.e. guess what was going throguh the minds of the highly paid public officials at the time).
2) The Literal Rule. Take it as it has literally been written.

Unfortunately this is a case where "specific exclusion" sit on both sides of the divide (i.e. riding in bus lanes is ok by the Literal rule, but not by the Golden Rule... probably).

I'm personally not greatly inconvenienced by it and take advatge of bus lanes where I can. but I'll just raise that for discussion. I saught the perspective of those who "designed" the rules simply because I knew I could play with the ambiguities... but it's not really worth my personal time to do so.

MDU

[sAsLEX]

Yeah well...

From what I recall of Statutory Interpretation there are a couple of approaches.

1) The Golden Rule. Interpret it the way it was intended (i.e. guess what was going throguh the minds of the highly paid public officials at the time).
2) The Literal Rule. Take it as it has literally been written.

Unfortunately this is a case where "specific exclusion" sit on both sides of the divide (i.e. riding in bus lanes is ok by the Literal rule, but not by the Golden Rule... probably).

I'm personally not greatly inconvenienced by it and take advatge of bus lanes where I can. but I'll just raise that for discussion. I saught the perspective of those who "designed" the rules simply because I knew I could play with the ambiguities... but it's not really worth my personal time to do so.

MDU

i suppose the onus is on those who write the laws to stop rushing in new laws, such as this and the boy racer laws, that are filled with grey areas which can be taken literally by some and the other way by others.

What can we do as public? Vote for a better government, but they are all the same media driven fools filled with empty promises around the time of elections.

[steved]

They consider that this message above fufills the law, but obviously from his own statement it doesn't as we must be "SPECIFICALLY" excluded, BUS ONLY does not do this so I personally will still use the BUS ONLY lanes and will let you know how I get on if they ever catch me up!!
Well, I got pulled over the other week at around 6pm in a motorway buslane. The cop seemed fairly knowledgable and stated that motorway bus lanes are the only ones that bikers can never use. Seems to be the consensus here as well.

[sAsLEX]

Well, I got pulled over the other week at around 6pm in a motorway buslane. The cop seemed fairly knowledgable and stated that motorway bus lanes are the only ones that bikers can never use. Seems to be the consensus here as well.

reason is they aint bus lanes but rather emergency stopping lanes that buses are allowed to use, they still have incorrect signage on the Northern motorway though last time i went through saying that they were bus lanes which would mean we are allowed to use them, but we aint

[Jantar]

Well, I got pulled over the other week at around 6pm in a motorway buslane. The cop seemed fairly knowledgable and stated that motorway bus lanes are the only ones that bikers can never use. Seems to be the consensus here as well.

Did the cop give you a ticket? Or is he actually as confused as the LTNZ law makers amd so just a caution?

[steved]

Did the cop give you a ticket? Or is he actually as confused as the LTNZ law makers amd so just a caution?
No ticket. I had my L plates on (brownie points) and she accepted that I was confused by which buslanes I was allowed into. I honestly thought all buslanes were okay, and now I know which aren't so I received a free lesson which was fine. Getting pulled over 2 days after beginning riding was a bit of fun though :yes:

[wkid_one]

The following are Bus Only sections of road (not available to motorcyclists):
Lambton Quay from Panama St to Hunter St, Hunter St to Customhouse Quay, Customhouse Quay to Willis St, Willis St to Mercer St.
All other bus lanes are available to motorcyclists (when last checked with Wellington City Council)

[sAsLEX]

The following are Bus Only sections of road (not available to motorcyclists):
Lambton Quay from Panama St to Hunter St, Hunter St to Customhouse Quay, Customhouse Quay to Willis St, Willis St to Mercer St.
All other bus lanes are available to motorcyclists (when last checked with Wellington City Council)

Are but are they correctly signposted as to specifically exclude motorcyclists?? I remember that some of the banned wellington ones were still marked "buses Only" which does not conform to the specific exclusion required to ban bikes from using them.

[XP@]

The following are Bus Only sections of road (not available to motorcyclists):
Lambton Quay from Panama St to Hunter St, Hunter St to Customhouse Quay, Customhouse Quay to Willis St, Willis St to Mercer St.
All other bus lanes are available to motorcyclists (when last checked with Wellington City Council)
Lambton Quay is ok for bikes. They have specifically excluded the exclusion ("ONLY" has been painted over) therefore ride it!

The others, I would use if i thought there was a benefit to do so. If i got a ticket then it would be defended!

As for the details on the website... technology is getting better but i do not have a browser on my bike therefore what it says on their site means nothing. Imagine the prosecutions case on that one! "Although bikes are allowed on the bus lanes in this case they are specifically excluded on the councils website."

[wkid_one]

Lambton Quay is ok for bikes. They have specifically excluded the exclusion ("ONLY" has been painted over) therefore ride it!

The others, I would use if i thought there was a benefit to do so. If i got a ticket then it would be defended!

As for the details on the website... technology is getting better but i do not have a browser on my bike therefore what it says on their site means nothing. Imagine the prosecutions case on that one! "Although bikes are allowed on the bus lanes in this case they are specifically excluded on the councils website."

Yeah - because of course it would be worth arguing on the side of the road. Go for your life - tempt fate to save 20 secs travel time - that ticket will be worth it

Remember, Moron, using the bus lanes is a priviledge - not right, abusing it will quickly see it taken from everyone else.

[XP@]

Yeah - because of course it would be worth arguing on the side of the road. Go for your life - tempt fate to save 20 secs travel time - that ticket will be worth it

Remember, Moron, using the bus lanes is a priviledge - not right, abusing it will quickly see it taken from everyone else.

Yup, 20 seconds saving would not be worth it. But as a safe way to get round a big que of traffic then it is worth considering.

The others, I would use if i thought there was a benefit to do so. If i got a ticket then it would be defended!

What confuses me in this matter is their definition of the word "Explicitly". This kinda ambiguity by the authorities brings out the :devil2: in me and I just want to find out why...

Like the lanes on the AKL motorway... really what harm would there be in letting bikes use them if the traffic is backed up? Bikes will split lanes anyway, so why not make it safe for them? If the lane is being used by a broken vehicle then they just have to merge back in like the buses do.