Adversarial attitude to road use

[slofox]

(2000th post…I thought about this one…)

Some of you will disagree with certain aspects of what I have to say here – especially the bit about malicious intent. That’s OK, feel free. The focus is the anger thing. On that point, I stand my ground. Please read on…

We New Zealand road users seem to have an adversarial attitude to road use. The other driver is always “an idiot” who is “out to kill me”.ie the other driver is deliberately trying to harm us and is therefore a worthy object of our righteous indignation.

In 46 years of road use, 41 of them as a motorbiker, I think I have only met one other road user who I believe actually tried to do me harm. He was driving an SUV (funny that!) and deliberately swerved across in front of me for reasons unknown. That’s one case in who knows how many million vehicle interactions in all that time. Not the most frequent occurrence.

This is not to say that other road users don’t put you at risk. We all know they do. But I doubt that many of them actually intend harm to others in the first instance. In most cases, it is ignorance, distraction, arrogance, incompetence or something else that results in other road users being put at risk.

The adversarial attitude generates anger on the road. “Did you see that bastard? Fuckim! Tried to fuckin kill me! I’ll get ‘im. Grrrrsnortrantraveroararrrrggghhhhh!” You know the drill and so do I because I do it myself. Once this attitude is fired up, anger follows. And angry drivers are dangerous drivers, more likely to, in their turn, put other road users at risk. Next thing you know, the roads are full of anger and it degenerates into a bun fight. No wonder we have a road toll…everybody is steamed up and pissed off. This is when deliberate harm is more likely to occur.

Contrast certain other countries around the world. I spent time in Cardiff a decade ago now, with its narrow streets and gazillions of cars. And its Welsh citizens who are not always renowned for cool heads…But on the roads, I saw no anger displayed. I saw no aggressive driving like I see here. What I did see was consideration, people allowing others to merge, people making allowances for the errors of others without instantly declaring the erring driver an enemy with evil intent. A bit of tolerance of human fraility and the tendency to make errors.

In China, so I am told by those who visit there, if you want to cross the road as a pedestrian, you fix your eyes on where you want to get to and just start walking. If you just make steady progress, everyone avoids you. Try that here and see how long you last…Again, there is allowance being made for inconvenience caused and for human imperfection. We don’t seem to be able to do that here. We have a national “anger on the roads” mindset. A very dangerous attitude in my book.

I ask myself why we are so aggressive as road users and to be honest I don’t know. But I do firmly believe that with less anger out there, our roads would be safer places. We need to make more allowance for the errors of others without losing our rags and becoming angry drivers ourselves. A cool head makes better decisions. Somewhere along the line, someone has to start the ball rolling and stop being so reactive. Displays of anger almost always result in the same sort of display in return. Tiime to defuse our roads I reckon.

[vifferman]

Yes.


You also forgot to mention that when we're driving, if someone's going too slow, they're a fuckwit, but if they pass us, they're a dangerous maniac (and we resent them, because it impugns our manhood/womanliness).
I reckon as a nation, we have a bad attitude problem, and it's the root cause of our crap driving.
I've always said it's based on our "pioneering spirit", but that's just something I plucked out of my head (or arse, it's the same thing).
It must be true, and if you don't agree with me, you're a dick. :Pokey:

[Slyer]

People just needs anger management, not just for driving but all aspects of life.
Relax guy, sit down take a load off. Sip some ice water. ;)

[Usarka]

And a societal change around this would make more difference than 20 of those road safety initiative reports.

[MSTRS]

It's the visible sign of our dislike of being controlled in most every part of our lives. Our vehicles give us a sense of 'remove' from all that, and therefore we grant ourselves permission to unload on whoever represents a check on what we are doing or want to do.
The correlation between increasing instances of roadrage and the plethora of extra laws etc we are subject to, compared with (say) 20 years ago, cannot be dismissed.
We do not like to have our freedoms curtailed.

[YellowDog]

Congrats on the 2000 posts Mr Fox!

It is hard to dissagree with anything you have said. All I would say is that as you get older and more experienced, you do learn to recognise the potential for anger and to avoid it.

I have also riden/driven in many countries and have noticed a huge variance in driver attitude and aggression levels. Rural Wales is a prime example of where drivers are relaxed and considerate. The same can't be said about London/Paris/Rome/Auckland drivers.

All I would say is that maybe if the Police were pulling people up driving badly, for example, for hogging the outside lane at 70kph, so that other road users have to pass on the inside; then people would have to drive better or get stopped. Smoking a cigarette, using a mobile phone, eating your lunch are all actions that contribute towards bad driving. (Shaving whilst driving is however perfectly safe and acceptable - must stop doing that). Instead the Police are picking on 111kph road users who may be driving carefully and considerately. This is not helping. The 'speed kills' obsession is a bit too general.

Not all Germans are great road users and not all Italian's are maniacs. It just seems that way. The reason some Kiwi drivers feel they are legitimately able to murder (RIP Mr Patel) another road user due to their interpretation of bad driving is because everyone is in the right and there is no 'check' (unless you speed) to help raise standards.

[R6_kid]

It's called Fundamental Attribution Error (FAE) - attributing the behaviour/action to the person and not the situation. Any stage one Psychology student should be able to tell you that and explain what it means.

Funnily enough, it happens all he time, and is just one of the many wonderful things that makes us human. Generally, when you are aware of this principle you tend to become a nicer person.

There is a better explanation here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

[vifferman]

I've only driven in NZ, Australia, California, Belgium and the Netherlands, and I'd have to say that apart from Brussels, Auckland is the worst place I've driven, and New Zealand has some of the worst driver attitudes displayed.

In Brussels, I realised when I drove out of the rental car place that I hadn't bothered to check things like what the local laws were, how to get out of the city, minor stuff like that. I figured I'd just reverse UnZUd rules, and watch the locals to find out how things worked. It turned out that they had no idea of the rules either, so I just used my KombatKommuterKaos skills gleaned from motorbicycling around D'Auckland, and watched each car to decide whether they expected me to give way, or vice-versa.
Signage in Brussels was hit'n'miss: either missing entirely, or if it was present, it was somewhere unhelpful, like on the side of a building, and in some random colour and at a random height. Thus it took me about 90 minutes to get out of Brussels (only a few km!). Even the cops had no idea (stopped and asked them).

There are distinct societal influences on driving habits. In Mrka, they tend to be very courteous and polite, which I suspect is in part due to gun ownership laws. My very first time driving in California, I was so busy looking for signs, that my driving was on auto-pilot, and I drove onto the wrong side of the road (6 lanes) as I exited the rental car depot. No-one tootled me (melodiously or otherwise) - they just stopped, waited, and carried on.

Driving on the highways in Yurp, there were things I was made aware of before I went: don't hog the passing lane, and be careful where you speed (some areas are fiercely policed, without tolerance). So, when I passed, I pulled back in again as soon as I had overtaken. It seems like this is taken to extreme, as it was rather unnerving to have a car overtake you, give one flick of the indicator (or quite commonly, none at all) then pull in abruptly, sometimes less than a metre in front of you. That surprised me, as I was expecting a higher standard of driving.

Australia (well... the bits I've driven in: Vic, NSW, SA, WA) isn't much different to here, except in some areas speeding is policed so rigorously that it's ridiculous. In Melbourne, people drive faster in town than on the highway! You can be doing 95 in a taxi, and on the highway people are dribbling along in case a spoter plane or mufti car pings them. As a result, there's a campaign to stop you falling asleep on the long, straightish, boring roads, with rumble strips, free coffee stops, etc. Unfortunately, most of our "road safety initiatives" are lifted straight from Victoria's books.

[vifferman]

The reason some Kiwi drivers feel they are legitimately able to murder (RIP Mr Patel) another road user due to their interpretation of bad driving is because everyone is in the right and there is no 'check' (unless you speed) to help raise standards.
It's because we're all better drivers than everyone else - all the other drivers are idiots.

[lankyman]

People just needs anger management, not just for driving but all aspects of life.
Relax guy, sit down take a load off. Sip some ice water. ;)

Maybe we should legalise cannabis

[Slyer]

Maybe we should legalise cannabis
Maybe indeed.

[AllanB]

I agree.

However ...........

I do believe some drivers are indeed 'idiots'. I usually witness this behavior when driving my car with the family onboard on our way to a holiday destination.
Indeed earlier this year if MrsB had not advised otherwise I would have got out of my car at Springs Junction and punched the idiot who had endangered the life of my children.
The incident, involving 3 cars (and my trailer) was only avoided due to my keeping a watchful eye on my rear mirrors (something I attribute to motorcycling).

Blind corners at open road speeds are never a good place to pass anyone!

And there have be a few occasions over the years on the road when my own brain hit a false neutral .........

[Swoop]

Congrats on Y2K Slofox!


Please don't forget the crap we are fed... "We are a WARRIOR nation", etc...

[Ferkletastic]

Just been reading the "Speeding" thread which is an excellent case study of what you're discussing.

There does seem to be a 'perceived driving prowess == penis size" attitude in NZ and especially amoungst bikers.

Way too much cock waiving in this country. Hopefully one day we grow up a bit.

[Ixion]

But on the roads, I saw no anger displayed. I saw no aggressive driving like I see here. What I did see was consideration, people allowing others to merge, people making allowances for the errors of others without instantly declaring the erring driver an enemy with evil intent. A bit of tolerance of human fraility and the tendency to make errors.


I see many instances of all these every week on Auckland roads. Most people are decent, most drivers reasonably courteous and (for cages, can't expect biker standards) reasonably competent.

[vifferman]

Way too much cock waiving in this country. Hopefully one day we grow up a bit.
I'd rather not 'waive' my member - I'm rather attached to it. :confused:

[slofox]

I see many instances of all these every week on Auckland roads. Most people are decent, most drivers reasonably courteous and (for cages, can't expect biker standards) reasonably competent.

Ixion, my intention was not to deny that consideration exists here. Perhaps I should have been more specific on that point. What I am trying to point out is that the presence of the angry drivers is more apparent here than I would like.

[PrincessBandit]

I posted similarly in the submissions thread. Our attitude on the road has a huge impact on how we control our vehicles, and generally I think NZers have a huge chip on their shoulder when they get behind the wheel. Or, for those who don't have that, it is more of a self-absorbed attitude than "I" am the only important person on the road and no-one is going to get in my way.

I have been guilty myself of getting annoyed with people who hare up the inside merging lane when they can see the lane tapers off ahead, but instead of merging like others (read "me") they barge on in further up the queue. To me that screams "get outta my way, I don't have to be considerate like anyone else". Maybe they've just had a bad day, or maybe I'm just petty. I would like to see people drive and ride more considerately to others, including pedestrians, cyclists etc.

rant over.

[NDORFN]

It's a dog eat dog world man.

[slofox]

I posted similarly in the submissions thread. Our attitude on the road has a huge impact on how we control our vehicles, and generally I think NZers have a huge chip on their shoulder when they get behind the wheel. Or, for those who don't have that, it is more of a self-absorbed attitude than "I" am the only important person on the road and no-one is going to get in my way.

I have been guilty myself of getting annoyed with people who hare up the inside merging lane when they can see the lane tapers off ahead, but instead of merging like others (read "me") they barge on in further up the queue. To me that screams "get outta my way, I don't have to be considerate like anyone else". Maybe they've just had a bad day, or maybe I'm just petty. I would like to see people drive and ride more considerately to others, including pedestrians, cyclists etc.

rant over.

When I see that sort of thing, I always wonder whether these same people would behave the same way in a supermarket queue - or any other queue for that matter...

[Ferkletastic]

I'd rather not 'waive' my member - I'm rather attached to it. :confused:

Plus it gets a bit cold at higher speed.

the attitude is weird though, this idea that controlling a thing you purchase that is capable of doing something (going fast) makes you more of a man is odd. I had somebody bragging at me about how he beat some car on the motorway on his litre bike like he'd won some great battle of manliness as opposed to simply twisting his wrist. It's an odd idea really.

[NDORFN]

When I see that sort of thing, I always wonder whether these same people would behave the same way in a supermarket queue - or any other queue for that matter...

Yes they do, I see it all the time. The ones who when there are two checkouts and one vague queue going first in first serve two whichever checkout frees up first, they skip the queue and bowl up to either checkout and when you hit them up about it they claim they thought the queue was for the other checkout.

[Ixion]

Ixion, my intention was not to deny that consideration exists here. Perhaps I should have been more specific on that point. What I am trying to point out is that the presence of the angry drivers is more apparent here than I would like.

True, very true. But I like to focus on the positive not the negative. Makes the day so much more pleasant

[YellowDog]

I see many instances of all these every week on Auckland roads. Most people are decent, most drivers reasonably courteous and (for cages, can't expect biker standards) reasonably competent.

I agree with this point.

It is not reasonable to expect car drivers, who quite often have severely limited driving abilities (due to how easy it is to pass a test) to have 'biker' standards of competency (like looking over their shoulder).

[slofox]

True, very true. But I like to focus on the positive not the negative. Makes the day so much more pleasant

I'll remember that...:shifty:

[ManDownUnder]

I ask myself why we are so aggressive as road users and to be honest I don’t know.

We suffer from small penis syndrome (aka tall poppy syndrome) where we're never good enough in the eyes of ourselves or others.

Behind the wheel of a car we become invincible... and a force to be reckoned with.

It's stupid.

[AllanB]

Behind the wheel of a car we become invincible... and a force to be reckoned with.

But it's so warm and comfortable in there with good music playing and cup holders for your drinks etc.

Unlike the noisy, slow, under braked bits of crap I learned to drive in.

[SARGE]

i ask myself why we are so aggressive as road users and to be honest i don’t know.


try fixing your eyes and walking across nearly any big city street in the states and you'll find out how fast that idea lasts .. :eek5:

[sunhuntin]

i noticed when riding down south that there was a lot less aggression. i didnt feel forced to ride faster than either the speed limit or my ability like i am up here. i think in two trips totally 4 weeks, i saw one driver who hacked me off, but there was a karma waiting around the corner in the form of a cop with a breathalyser. lmfao. :2thumbsup.
ive also played pillion in canada, and found the driving standards there to be much the same as the south island. maybe its cos theres less traffic? or, not so much less traffic, but more room for it? dunno. its weird.

good post, fox, and congrats on the 2000 posts.

[paddy]

We New Zealand road users seem to have an adversarial attitude to road use. The other driver is always “an idiot” who is “out to kill me”.ie the other driver is deliberately trying to harm us and is therefore a worthy object of our righteous indignation.

Sounds a bit like a certain internet forum that we are all familiar with. :-)

[paddy]

People get behind the protection of the keyboard and go wild...

[SPman]

What amazed us in Beijing, was how relaxed the traffic was, despite the apparent chaos being displayed all around us. Drivers/riders just got on with it and, as long as there was no physical contact, just seemed to drive around everyone else. Drivers carrying out antics that would result in multiple pile ups, heart attacks, fits of driver and police apoplexy in Aus/NZ, seemed to be ignored, even by the police. (eg, minivan across 2 lanes of 3 lane expressway, whilst turning into an on ramp against the traffic flow, police car drives past and cop barely glances at vehicle. We're having kittens in the back of our minibus and our driver just smoothly drives around the back of him.....)
Amazing.
Paris seemed pretty laid back as well.
Perhaps it's a case of having to get on with everyone else and keep moving, just to get anywhere in these large cities.......people spend all their energy just navigating through the traffic and there's nothing left for ranting at everyone else.

[NDORFN]

What amazed us in Beijing, was how relaxed the traffic was, despite the apparent chaos being displayed all around us. Drivers/riders just got on with it and, as long as there was no physical contact, just seemed to drive around everyone else. Drivers carrying out antics that would result in multiple pile ups, heart attacks, fits of driver and police apoplexy in Aus/NZ, seemed to be ignored, even by the police. (eg, minivan across 2 lanes of 3 lane expressway, whilst turning into an on ramp against the traffic flow, police car drives past and cop barely glances at vehicle. We're having kittens in the back of our minibus and our driver just smoothly drives around the back of him.....)
Amazing.
Paris seemed pretty laid back as well.
Perhaps it's a case of having to get on with everyone else and keep moving, just to get anywhere in these large cities.......people spend all their energy just navigating through the traffic and there's nothing left for ranting at everyone else.


Maybe it's the over-enforcement here in NZ that is causing it. You say in Beijing the police would ignore alot of it, unlike here in NZ where everytime someone sees someone do something illegal or inconsiderate they get angry because they remember the time they did the same and got nicked for it to the tune of several hundred dollars.

[Voltaire]

I've often wondered what it would be like say for example walking down Queen St or any busy pedestrian area and we all carried on like we do in cars....
" Get out of my way you %^&$%# "
" Cut in front of me you $%^^&&"
or gave them the finger if they slowed you down for a few seconds....
Or stopped and abused someone because they passed you on the inside and cut in front.

I also wondered if how people push trolleys around supermarkets is a reflection on how they drive/park.

[NDORFN]

I've often wondered what it would be like say for example walking down Queen St or any busy pedestrian area and we all carried on like we do in cars....
" Get out of my way you %^&$%# "
" Cut in front of me you $%^^&&"
or gave them the finger if they slowed you down for a few seconds....
Or stopped and abused someone because they passed you on the inside and cut in front.

I also wondered if how people push trolleys around supermarkets is a reflection on how they drive/park.

I think the major difference is that when two pedestrians bump into each other it's alot less cost and hassle than when two cars bump into each other.

[Hitcher]

New Zealanders drive like there are only two vehicles on the road: them and that other fucker.

[MSTRS]

New Zealanders drive like there are only two vehicles on the road: them and that other fucker.

Actually, I don't mind the prats on the road. They do have a right, you know. What fucks me off is them being on the same bit, at the same time, as me...

[The Stranger]

Hanlon's razor.

It's worth remembering.

[AllanB]

Drivings in the blood .............:whistle:

[vifferman]

We suffer from small penis syndrome
Speak for yourself, Sir! Mine is so huge it's sometimes terrifying.:crazy:


i noticed when riding down south that there was a lot less aggression.
Yeah, I notice that too. It's a delight to fly into Christchurch and drive anywhere: the people generally are not in such a hurry, and it's so much more relaxing. Oh - and they don't seem to break as many rules.



Paris seemed pretty laid back as well.
Paris was pretty crazy - well, at least the Champs Ellyses was; I was fliming as we went around it, and shot a classic piece of footage where there's cars going in all directions, motorcycles fill in the gaps, tilll the whole thing's full up and everyone stops.
No collisions or anger though...


Perhaps it's a case of having to get on with everyone else and keep moving, just to get anywhere in these large cities.......people spend all their energy just navigating through the traffic and there's nothing left for ranting at everyone else.
Perhaps - sort of all being in the same boat or summat.
That happens a little bit here, with people letting others into the traffic flow, but in some ways this is counter-productive, as you've got some people using a whole new set of made-up rules of there own, like not giving way to the right, "the small road gives way to the big road", it's OK to ignore traffic lights and signs (expediency is EVERYTHING!)

Maybe it's the over-enforcement here in NZ that is causing it.
I don't think so - I think it's something in our psyche.
However, I know there is a fairly big groundswell of public opinion (as evidenced by the huge number of tickets handed out) that the focus on speed and speeding is bollocks, and I think people would generally be more receptive to a less punitive and more intelligent safety-based campaign (even though your average NZ driver is an idiot).

[dpex]

Yes.


You also forgot to mention that when we're driving, if someone's going too slow, they're a fuckwit, but if they pass us, they're a dangerous maniac (and we resent them, because it impugns our manhood/womanliness).
I reckon as a nation, we have a bad attitude problem, and it's the root cause of our crap driving.
I've always said it's based on our "pioneering spirit", but that's just something I plucked out of my head (or arse, it's the same thing).
It must be true, and if you don't agree with me, you're a dick. :Pokey:

Jesus H Leprechaun! You entirely missed the point of the original post.

It is clear, as slowfox says, there is actually so little aggressive driving on our roads.

Like slowfox, I've been driving/riding for 40+ years. I can think of perhaps two occasions in say the last 12 months where I saw aggressive driving...aggressive meaning, a driver who purposely set out to interfere with another driver....And both of those were on suburban roads where the assaulting driver got pissed at a lane-splitting biker.

[NDORFN]

Jesus H Leprechaun! You entirely missed the point of the original post.

It is clear, as slowfox says, there is actually so little aggressive driving on our roads.

Like slowfox, I've been driving/riding for 40+ years. I can think of perhaps two occasions in say the last 12 months where I saw aggressive driving...aggressive meaning, a driver who purposely set out to interfere with another driver....And both of those were on suburban roads where the assaulting driver got pissed at a lane-splitting biker.

You sure you're thinking about the right country there old timer?

[dpex]

New Zealanders drive like there are only two vehicles on the road: them and that other fucker.

Here's yet another example of absolute generalised crap.

I do a lot of miles on the road and for the most part I remain utterly amazed that my fellow drivers seem perfectly happy to pootle along, generally adhering to the various laws, and then giving way when they don't have to, and generally acting like civilised persons.

I see most infractions being undertaken by the inane folk who either don't know thr rules, don't care about their lives, and frequently tapping on a cell-phone, reading a bible during rush-hour traffic, or driving a 4X4 beamer, up the motorway, blonde hair and make telling it all, while breast-feeding a baby.

But they're pretty rare experiences, and believe me, to save my skin, I'm watching out for all of them.

But I often ride/drive from Aucks to Rotorua (to fish, of course) and find that 99.99% of drivers/riders are out there, doing their basic things, adhering to the laws, and not causing anyone any grief, and there's never a cop in sight.

Go figure.

[dpex]

You sure you're thinking about the right country there old timer?


Here is an example of the lack of wisdom of youth.

But don't feel too bad. You either develop wisdom or you die during the chase.

And for the record, dying is not necessarily the final parting. Being dead from the neck-down can be pretty bad, or in your case, from the neck up. But it is still a death.

[sil3nt]

In China, so I am told by those who visit there, if you want to cross the road as a pedestrian, you fix your eyes on where you want to get to and just start walking. If you just make steady progress, everyone avoids you. Try that here and see how long you last…Again, there is allowance being made for inconvenience caused and for human imperfection. We don’t seem to be able to do that here. We have a national “anger on the roads” mindset. A very dangerous attitude in my book.I stopped when i got to here (so havent read any other posts) but this was my absolute favourite part about China :2thumbsup Crossing the road was an awesome adventure everytime

[SPman]

I stopped when i got to here (so havent read any other posts) but this was my absolute favourite part about China :2thumbsup Crossing the road was an awesome adventure everytime Isn't it just!
It was those bloody electric scooters that gave me the shits - you couldn't hear them coming from behind !

[vifferman]

Jesus H Leprechaun! You entirely missed the point of the original post.

It is clear, as slowfox says, there is actually so little aggressive driving on our roads.
Oh - why so I did. :o
I had actually intended to reply to that bit; I guess that's what happens when you're trying to watch a DVD (BlueRay, actual) and play on the Interdweeb at the same time.

Yes, I too have had very few examples of really aggressive driving; I guess that for most people (psychos and P-heads excluded), there's a line that they just don't cross, except under exceptional circumstances.

I had one psycho guy, mebbe 15 years ago, that kicked in the rear door of my Subaru one night, in a fit of road rage.

While commuting or riding the bike in D'Auckland in the last 10 years, I've had some fuckin' stupid drivers cut me off, not see me, or otherwise unintentionally endanger my life, including one who caused me to crash my newly repaired VFR750, and one who u-turned into me, writing it off (not long after the repairs from the other eejit).

I can think of only one (1) example of deliberate "I don't give a crap" fuckwittery, and that was a few years back, I was riding down Onewa Road one lunch time, in the right-hand lane. In the left hand lane ahead, there's a roadwork truck, with a big flashing arrow on the back. Behind me, and in the left lane, is a dickwad in a Falcadore ute. Rather than slow slightly and change lanes, he plants his foot and accelerates, and steers to the right. There was NO way he could have not seen me there - he just didn't care. If I hadn't braked REALLY hard (like emergency braking), I would've been fucked. I followed him till he turned off, but there was nothing I could do, and I guess he didn't care, so there was no point confronting him. I had nothing with me to record his rego, and what use would that have been? I was really, really pissed off, and felt really impotent.

[Motu]

Looking at it over several decades I think we are getting better.Driving in Auckland was very cut throat in the '70's and '80's,and I had damage to my vehicles from forcing my way,or stopping others from getting their way.Also had physical road rage upon my fragile body.However as more Kiwi's travel overseas and experience other car cultures,they bring back better driving skills...and also immigrants from other countries bring their driving styles too.There are more cars,but overall I think we are far better than we used to be.

Short memories here....and some not long enough....

[slofox]

and felt really impotent.

...there's little blue pills for that y'know...:whistle:

[CookMySock]

Once you have been on the road for 30-40 thousand hours you give it up. It's too stressful to be feasible long-term.

I just want to go where I want.

Steve