Abs?

[paddy]

I've been thinking. Which is always a dangerous thing. I've had some thoughts around ABS and I wanted to put them out there for argument. (Really I wanted to put them out there for sensible discussion in the hope I can learn something - but I'm not that naive - so I will settle for vigorous argument.)

For the sake of argument, lets consider a very simplistic view of ABS, that when a wheel stops rotating, the brake pressure is momentarily released before being re-applied (and repeat ad infinitum).

Lets also consider, that it seems to be a fairly common argument that a competent and practised rider can stop a non-ABS bike more quickly than an ABS equipped bike. For the sake of the argument, lets just assume that the experienced rider won't just panic and grab a handful of brake in the same way that a learner might.

So here is my question: The experienced rider can stop the non-ABS bike more quickly because he can maintain brake pressure right at the threshold of traction. Here's where it gets a bit hazy for me though - he can also do this on the ABS equipped bike. The only difference would seem to be when he misjudges and gets it wrong.

I pose the question because this is often given as the argument against ABS equipped bikes. But it seems to me that the comparison is not actually between ABS and no ABS, but rather between braking styles - can the rider maintain brake pressure at the threshold of adhesion or not.

I'd like to hear what peoples thoughts are. And again, I am naively hoping to avoid this becoming a "pissing match" as I am actually interested in the debate.

(If you're female and easily offended please feel free to substitute "she" for "he" in the above. I'm not inferring anything. I'm male. I used "he".)

[kave]

My only real concern about ABS is how it copes with stopping in a low traction environment such as on gravel roads. Sometimes locking up a wheel can be the preferred course of action, and I dont know if I would be happy with that option being removed.

[Naki Rat]

On a bike, the same as in a car, there are times when locked brakes are preferable to give the desired stopping result.

Example being in the case of a speedway or rally type 'sideways' stop. In such cases the wheels are purposely locked up in order to present the tyre side-on to the direction of travel thereby increasing the tyre footprint's width by a factor of 3 or 4 times. This makes for a big friction advantage in some situations, particularly on metal/gravel.

Although I have been saved from harm by ABS in the odd situation, particularly braking hard when towing an unbraked trailer, I tend to prefer to be able to react to situations without unexpected inputs. For this reason on gravel roads the traction control is turned OFF.

[The Baron]

Can the rider maintain brake pressure at the threshold of adhesion or not?

Yes. But are all riders equal?

I still like ABS on heavier road bikes. I find ABS very good. So one vote for ABS.

[paddy]

Can the rider maintain brake pressure at the threshold of adhesion or not?

Yes. But are all riders equal?

I still like ABS on heavier road bikes. I find ABS very good. So one vote for ABS.


I would personally definitely prefer ABS. In reality, in an emergency, I am probably going to grab the brakes hard...

[paddy]

My only real concern about ABS is how it copes with stopping in a low traction environment such as on gravel roads. Sometimes locking up a wheel can be the preferred course of action, and I dont know if I would be happy with that option being removed.


On a bike, the same as in a car, there are times when locked brakes are preferable to give the desired stopping result.

Example being in the case of a speedway or rally type 'sideways' stop. In such cases the wheels are purposely locked up in order to present the tyre side-on to the direction of travel thereby increasing the tyre footprint's width by a factor of 3 or 4 times. This makes for a big friction advantage in some situations, particularly on metal/gravel.

Although I have been saved from harm by ABS in the odd situation, particularly braking hard when towing an unbraked trailer, I tend to prefer to be able to react to situations without unexpected inputs. For this reason on gravel roads the traction control is turned OFF.

I agree with some of what is above - so lets constrain the argument to motorcycles in a paved public road situation.

[AllanB]

Darn - saw the title, grabbed my camera and ripped off my shirt for you .........;)



I predict there will be a day when ABS is standard on bikes over 500cc.

[Sidewinder]

you cant do stoppies with abs and that sucks

[st00ji]

the level of intrusion into the riding experience offered by ABS really depends on how the manfacturer has set it up. in cars, nanny mode has it kicking in early, whereas sports cars systems will mostly only make themselves felt when its really needed (for example in your panicked handfuls of brake scenario)

presumably most bikes would be equipped with a brake system to suit the manner in which the manufacturer expects them to be ridden.

i'd be very surprised if a human could consistently outbrake a modern ABS system in real world situations, hence the reason they exist in the first place

[paturoa]

I've just bought an ABS bike for 1 reason, panic stops.

I don't rate my skills ahead of modern electronics that are checking hundreds of time per second.

Sure if I practiced a lot, say regular racing, then I might match, but what about that patch of oil / diesel ?

[jim.cox]

I'd vote against ABS

I like a bike to move around. I dont mind locking wheels, I dont mind spinning wheels. I do a significant amount of riding on gravel.

Also I have old old bikes which are hard to keep on going. ABS is just one more thing to go wrong.

And as a general principal I dislike the idea of brakes (or any bike part) that disable themselves.

So not for me (please)

Just my $0.02

[NDORFN]

If you want ABS, do some sit ups. If you don't want ABS, drink some beer.

[paturoa]

If you want ABS, do some sit ups. If you don't want ABS, drink some beer.

I drink beer and still have abs, they are just coverred up now!

[Devil]

I'd vote against ABS

I like a bike to move around. I dont mind locking wheels, I dont mind spinning wheels. I do a significant amount of riding on gravel.


I leave my ABS switched on on the gravel and i find it fantastic, I can still get the rear sliding should I wish.

One of the UK bike magazines recently had a brake test. The ABS equipped BMW K1300S whipped the arse of their benchmark Daytona 675 in both the wet and the dry.

ABS doesn't stop you from doing stoppies either.

[Ender EnZed]

If you want ABS, do some sit ups. If you don't want ABS, drink some beer.

If you're really after a good time try both at once.


I've never ridden a bike with ABS but I'm not going to pretend I could reliably stop faster in an emergency. So I'm in favour.

[paturoa]

I've never ridden a bike with ABS but I'm not going to pretend I could reliably stop faster in an emergency. So I'm in favour.

This is quite a good watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6kO6ltk3a0

Edit: and this one too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfffXkoJvUU

[Number One]

THIS (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/picture.php?albumid=87&pictureid=4857) is one of the best ABS setups I've seen :2thumbsup


ok leaving this serious thread NOW

[paddy]

Right-o, I going to try and steer the thread back to my original question if I can:

If you exclude the likes of gravel riding, and set aside you opinion as to whether ABS is a good idea or not, why should someone with a non-ABS bike be able to stop more quickly IF THEY APPLY THE SAME TECHNIQUE on both machines.

The example that is always given compares a competent rider in controlled conditions braking right at the verge of loss of adhesion, but then compares this to an ABS equiped bike where braking has been applied with maximum force. It just seems to me that you could apply the non-ABS technique on an ABS machine and therefore this particular argument for NOT fitting bikes with ABS seems a bit void...

[paddy]

you cant do stoppies with abs and that sucks

Serious question - why not? I could understand with traction control that is design to try and keep the bike stable, but pure ABS. You don't want the front wheel to lock up when you are doing a stoppie surely?

[paddy]

Darn - saw the title, grabbed my camera and ripped off my shirt for you .........;)

Arr, shucks. I didn't know I could have that effect on a guy. :-) I thought It was in capitals when I typed it in but obviously not. (Unless the forum "fixed" it for me.)

[YellowDog]

Paddy mate, I am one of those wankers who used to believe he was as good as ABS and hence doesn't need it. I believed that I had my own ABS and also quite like to lock the back wheel for effect.

When I was looking at new bikes, my wife game me a BTW ultimation. "If your new bike doesn't have ABS, you aint having it."

But I don't need ABS. Bikes have great brakes and it'll be fine.

WRONG:
Bike without ABS = No Pillion and No sex.
Bike with ABS = whatever you want.

Anyway, now I have had ABS for a year and a bit, I would thoroughly recommend it. Yes you can Stoppie if you so wish. You can ride on gravel. The early ABS systems were a bit suspect however the modern ones are highly sophiosticated. 100 adjustments per second is more than my arrogant right foot can handle.

Once you get ABS, you then go out of your way to try and break it (find its limits). I don't think it has ever cut in for me on a dry road however it has saved my bacon a couple of times in the wet, when silly things have happened.

So my conclusion is that you can do everything you want to do with a non ABS model. BUT for riding in the wet, it is a valuable lifeline. I would have crashed at least once in the last year without ABS.

The one negative thing I would say is that I do now ride a lot more confidently in the wet than before as stopping is so easy. This could be a false sense of security.

[Ender EnZed]

The example that is always given compares a competent rider in controlled conditions braking right at the verge of loss of adhesion, but then compares this to an ABS equiped bike where braking has been applied with maximum force. It just seems to me that you could apply the non-ABS technique on an ABS machine and therefore this particular argument for NOT fitting bikes with ABS seems a bit void...

As I understand it this theory assumes that the ABS intervenes before the loss of adhesion*. And so applying a properly executed non-ABS technique to an ABS machine will still trigger the ABS to back off on the braking pressure because it thinks the wheel is going to lock.

If I remember correctly the first ABS equipped vehicle was the Mercedes S-Class in around 1978 and in the magazine tests at the time it did take longer to stop on dry tarmac than the same car without ABS. This is not the case with modern ABS equipped cars and quite possibly some motorcycles as well. Motorcycle manufacturers have generally been far behind the cages in terms of electrickery like ABS and traction control. Probably because customers don't like added weight for something they think can do better.

*I don't acually know, I'm not a motorcycle engineer. This seems the only way the anti-ABS arguements make sense.

[SMOKEU]

If I remember correctly the first ABS equipped vehicle was the Mercedes S-Class in around 1990



My mates old 1987 E30 325i has ABS.

[Ender EnZed]

Just read Wikipedia. Don't listen to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system

[NDORFN]

I drink beer and still have abs, they are just coverred up now!

You mean you've got an AB.

[paturoa]

You mean you've got an AB.

More of a FL AB

[CookMySock]

For the sake of argument, lets consider a very simplistic view of ABS, that when a wheel stops rotating, the brake pressure is momentarily released before being re-applied (and repeat ad infinitum).Uhh, I think that is too simplistic to be usable. I think you will find the system is quite sensitive to "slip" and will maintain the best possible braking.


Lets also consider, that it seems to be a fairly common argument that a competent and practised rider can stop a non-ABS bike more quickly than an ABS equipped bike. For the sake of the argument, lets just assume that the experienced rider won't just panic and grab a handful of brake in the same way that a learner might.I think it won't matter a toss how much brake he or she grabs. The ABS system is pretty clever, and if it's not, then it should be.

The thing is with bikes, its not really an exact science what a bike does mid-corner when a wheel starts to slip, and theres not really an established way to measure it. Quite the opposite to a car, where you have four wheels where you can take the differential of the square of the difference, and do the rest in software.

There was a thread some months ago, where it was proposed to invent a device that watched the bikes' motion in full 3D using g-force sensors, and continuously map its trajectory, permitting the CPU to "learn" and "grow" with the rider, and suggest when some "oddness" was detected. Some seconds after what the rider perceived to be a slide or some other inappropriate action he could glance at the dash and see whether the computer said "uh dont do that again, son" or whether it said nothing at all. There was no action taken with the brakes or any input to the bikes' mechanicals - it was merely an experienced "person" to be with you to offer "their" interpretation.

In five to ten years, such a thing will exist.

Steve

[TonyB]

Darn - saw the title, grabbed my camera and ripped off my shirt for you .........;) I thought you only did that in return for chicks getting their tits out?

[jrandom]

You mean you've got an AB.

A washing machine ab.

[AllanB]

ABS wins my vote for panic stops.

I had a situation a few months back coming around a blind corner at speed to find a car on my side of the road passing a flock (fuck?) of cyclists!

The rear brake on my Hornet has bugger all feel - push your foot down it feels like a bit of wood, there is not any feel of progression until it locks.

Back to the corner - I hit the brakes in panic to wash off speed, front dives back end gets lighter and locks up - I am now in a high speed broadie, crossed up with that car still bearing down on me.
Best results - off the brakes and squeeze past the car ..... should have seen the looks on their faces (bastards).

ABS would have helped, there certainly would not have been the big broadie and saved me some undie scraping when I got home.

And yes there would have been less panic if I was riding slower but it would still have been close. That corner is now a very legal speed one for me!

I also noted that in the panic the bodies natural instinct to tighten up the muscles is a good abdominal exercise ...........

[AllanB]

I thought you only did that in return for chicks getting their tits out?

Party tricks - everyone needs one!

[Mystic13]

Racers, good racers can sit at the point where the rear is just lifting braking into a corner. Apparently. Someone commented on here watching Stroud and one other rider both doing the same thing.

ABS is insufficiently advanced to be reliable.

BMW have a problem with it failing on the F800S and ST. So much so that the new F800R now comes with a knob to adjust the sensitivity of the ABS to wind the problem out. They just won't retro fix the problem.

There have been a number of crashes as a result of the system and personally ABS must be switchable. To have a bike with a lethal ABS and not being able to disconnect it within the warranty period for the bike is ludicrous.

ABS in theory sounds good and works better when you have four wheels and four sensors.

If anyone from BMW reads this and has a problem. PM me. My fault is well known. I've had a near miss and I can produce rider reports on the crashes.

Personally I think the idea of ABS is great for most riders but in the wet and on loose metal surfaces I'd want it off.

We also have traction control now.

I hate being a guinea pig for BMW ABS.

[Mystic13]

Right-o, I going to try and steer the thread back to my original question if I can:

If you exclude the likes of gravel riding, and set aside you opinion as to whether ABS is a good idea or not, why should someone with a non-ABS bike be able to stop more quickly IF THEY APPLY THE SAME TECHNIQUE on both machines.

The example that is always given compares a competent rider in controlled conditions braking right at the verge of loss of adhesion, but then compares this to an ABS equiped bike where braking has been applied with maximum force. It just seems to me that you could apply the non-ABS technique on an ABS machine and therefore this particular argument for NOT fitting bikes with ABS seems a bit void...

I'm thinking you can't. The ABS system relies on differential of wheel rotation and then partially releases until it detects comparable rotation to be within designed parameters and then reapplies full and then releases a little etc. Giving the pulsing. A skilled rider is able to take in more than wheel rotation, they have sound, feel of the bike, and many other inputs and can also make a call that they are not in danger and therefore don't have to release the brakes as much as the electronic system does.

I think there is the ability to increase the number of sensors to deal to making the ABS far better. I just don't think the manufacturers are interested and the buyers don't care.

ABS on motorbikes because of the limited sensors is far from perfect. So my bet is it'll never match a skilled rider. At present the flaws in the designs are such that ABS sometimes is far worse than even an average rider.

Just to keep things serious.

[NSR-Dan]

Im still not convinced about ABS on a bike, on a car yes as ABS is designed to still be able to steer the vehicle around an accident, it was not designed to stop a car any quicker.

on a bike how the fuck are you supposed to steer out of an accident.

all i can see is a lowside/highside happening while trying to counter steer around the supposed accident about to happen in an area that is near impossible to manouver in.

[SMOKEU]

ABS is designed to still be able to steer the vehicle around an accident, it was not designed to stop a car any quicker.


In an emergency situation such as when a kid runs out in front of a vehicle or when a pissed idiot runs a red light, most people slam on their brakes as hard as they can which will lock the wheels on their car if they don't have ABS. When the wheels are locked a car it can't stop as quickly as when the wheels are near their lock up point. So ABS on cars is partially designed to help drivers stop more quickly.

[YellowDog]

Im still not convinced about ABS on a bike, on a car yes as ABS is designed to still be able to steer the vehicle around an accident, it was not designed to stop a car any quicker.

on a bike how the fuck are you supposed to steer out of an accident.

all i can see is a lowside/highside happening while trying to counter steer around the supposed accident about to happen in an area that is near impossible to manouver in.
ABS is designed to helkp a car stop quicker than without ABS.

The same is the case for a motorbike and is far more relevant for steering around a poitential accident.

If you reduce your speed from 100kph to a stop at max braking, the chances are that you will fall off, being unable to cope with the bikes forces from such rapidly change to the momentum. But if you can reduce from 100kph to 20kph, without skidding, you can then safely steer around the obstruction.

It works and I have done it in the wet. Just go back a month or so and read the number of KBers who slipped off at low speed in the wet due to slippery surfaces. ABS helps to keep control, in such situations.

The best part about ABS is that it makes little or no difference to general riding and only cuts in for emergency situations.

[CookMySock]

on a bike how the fuck are you supposed to steer out of an accident.

all i can see is a lowside/highside happening while trying to counter steer around the supposed accident about to happen in an area that is near impossible to manouver in.You have to do your best. Grip the bars and steer the fucker pronto, or meet your maker, son.

If you are upright, then you aren't on the ground. While you are not on the ground - you can steer. So steer, and make it quick please. ;)

Steve

[mowgli]

all i can see is a lowside/highside happening while trying to counter steer around the supposed accident about to happen in an area that is near impossible to manouver in.
There's your problem in yellow. Look to the gap (your escape) not the accident unfolding. You'll be surprised how you somehow end up making the required turns.

Even before that point though you can help yourself out by remembering that a bike is less stable than a car. So maintain clear space around you, more so than you would in a car.

[steve_t]

on a bike how the fuck are you supposed to steer out of an accident.



But at least you can still steer if you're already in a turn. You can't if your front wheel is sliding out from under you

[Devil]

ABS is insufficiently advanced to be reliable.

BMW have a problem with it failing on the F800S and ST. So much so that the new F800R now comes with a knob to adjust the sensitivity of the ABS to wind the problem out. They just won't retro fix the problem.

While you do have valid (and proven) concerns, it is generally limited to that model.
The dial on the 800R sounds like a neat idea.

The latest version of ABS on the K1300S/R is fantastic from all reports, as is Honda's new system. That one however, Brake by wire, gives me the willies.

Then again I effectively have the same thing with servo assist. If the brake pump aint going, then I aint stoppin!

[Paul in NZ]

I have old bikes..... Only 1 of our bikes has disc brakes and that has a linked system that some hate but I like very much so I'm probably not qualified to comment but;

When technology starts standing between me and the visceral enjoyment of riding and the mastery of machine and motion and when the law mandates that I 'must' have these things I shall give up riding motorcycles and sit in front of a playstation for my thin thrills.

I'm not anti technology at all - I just don't like technologies that dumb things down. Human experience is about stretching and sometimes over reaching and learning and i don't want it on a motorcycle. Sure, put it on a car etc, who cares...

[CookMySock]

But at least you can still steer if you're already in a turn. You can't if your front wheel is sliding out from under youOne does not equate to the other.

In an emergency, you are better to steer without care or regard while you are still upright. Coz if you don't, you soon won't be.


A skilled rider is able to take in more than wheel rotation, they have sound, feel of the bike, and many other inputs and can also make a call that they are not in danger and therefore don't have to release the brakes as much as the electronic system does.I disagree (abusive red rep to follow lol) but seriously I do not think a rider at speeds over 80km/hr is capable of any of the actions you suggest, especially during a panic stop, and then there is his or her decision making process clouded by fear, and the very very limited time to react, I just don't think their ability at that point remotely approaches what ABS is capable of achieving.

It is easy to imagine we have godlike riding abilities (can read tyre rotational speed, can sense danger round corners) but it only takes a few nasty incidents to prove that we do not. The reality is we are mere mortals who often overthink our abilities, and ABS is more like a safety parachute to haul you out of danger when we forget it.

Steve

[Devil]

When technology starts standing between me and the visceral enjoyment of riding and the mastery of machine and motion and when the law mandates that I 'must' have these things I shall give up riding motorcycles and sit in front of a playstation for my thin thrills.

I'm not anti technology at all - I just don't like technologies that dumb things down. Human experience is about stretching and sometimes over reaching and learning and i don't want it on a motorcycle. Sure, put it on a car etc, who cares...

I love the race track and giving the bike a hiding through the twisties. I dont see how ABS takes away from that at all, you have to near lock the thing to get it to do anything. By near lock I mean get the wheel turning slower than the road is going past, so not stopped...
Unless you have a habit of doing that I dont see where ABS can remove the experience...

If they started insisting on traction control or the like however...

[firefighter]

competent and practised rider can stop a non-ABS bike more quickly than an ABS equipped bike.

Bullshit.

Maybe Rossi or Stoner, but for 99% of the riders on the road, I would really doubt it.
Especially when there's a lot of other things going on.

There's so many comparisons done, you could probably finda heap on 'you pube' with side-by-side results, everyone iv'e ever seen the ABS wins.....usually by a lot.

A lot of you seem to think it's all about the superb wonderful rider skills. Guess again, high speed accidents don't quite plan out like on your practise runs.

In real life "oh shit" situations, no matter how amazing you think you are, you will probably fuck-up. Having the ABS to prevent the skid would probably do wonders for you.

[AllanB]

In real life "oh shit" situations, no matter how amazing you think you are, you will probably fuck-up. Having the ABS to prevent the skid would probably do wonders for you.

+10 on this one.

They don't call it panic-braking for nothing, and upon two wheels when panic-braking is not the best place in the world to be.

Every review of that new Honda system available on the CBR1000R (of all bikes) rates it extremely well -apparently you don't notice it other than the wheels not locking up.

If it's a option on a new bike I'd pay the extra. Well apart from the 800 BMW after doing a Internet search!

[paturoa]

Every review of that new Honda system available on the CBR1000R (of all bikes) rates it extremely well -apparently you don't notice it other than the wheels not locking up.

Have a look at the youtube link I put in an earlier post in this thread, MCN got 3 riders of different ability, and got them all to do stops on a CBR with and without ABS. All 3 stoped significanlty shorter with ABS.

Edit: this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6kO6ltk3a0

[Juzz976]

I didn't read the whole thread but I'll post anyways,
I've noticed on low friction surfaces some tend to ABS when moderate braking is applied and the pulse from the abs is enough to lock the wheel/s up which is scary and you have less control than a non abs.

Basically your doin like 80k or somthing apply brakes little slip and then your wheels are pulsing between 0 and 5 k and it scares the crap outta ya so you grab more brakes.
but a non ABS would do an initial slip then grip and slow you down without locking up. usually if your on a low friction surface and just want to drop a few ks b4 a corner.

[allycatz]

Well this thread sux, thought I was gonna see pics of well toned six-packs...pfft I'll leave now!