F3, pre89 or pro twin?

[xr-rider]

i am looking at moving up to a new class after 2 seasons in the streetstock 150s. what would be better pro twins on an SV650 or F3 and pre 89 junior on a 400? which 400s are best VFR, ZXR, GSXR or FZR?

[FROSTY]

Purely on the basis of laps I'd pick F3/posties.

[R6_kid]

Why not get an 89 Honda Bros 650 and do all three!!! :woohoo:

[xr-rider]

Why not get an 89 Honda Bros 650 and do all three!!! :woohoo:

the vic club run F3 and pro twin together so wouldn't be able to

[Sketchy_Racer]

The question is really, how big is your budget and how competitive do you want to be?

If you go old school 400 route you will have a cheap to purchase bike, but as all things as they get older, it will become unreliable unless you spend large amounts of $$ on them, also they are not competitive in F3 these days.

Pro Twin will cost more for a bike, but you can pick up a very good bike for around the 8-10k mark or a cheaper but not as reliable one for about 6-7k and it will cost you a couple of sets of tyres to do a winter series.

I don't really know about pre 89, but again old bikes that will require large amounts of maintenance and quite likely unreliable.

I would suggest 650 Pro Twins as I think it would be the best option for you, but if the budget allows one of the awesome Ozzy 450's is currently the best bang for buck if you want to win!

[mossy1200]

The question is really, how big is your budget and how competitive do you want to be?

If you go old school 400 route you will have a cheap to purchase bike, but as all things as they get older, it will become unreliable unless you spend large amounts of $$ on them, also they are not competitive in F3 these days.

Pro Twin will cost more for a bike, but you can pick up a very good bike for around the 8-10k mark or a cheaper but not as reliable one for about 6-7k and it will cost you a couple of sets of tyres to do a winter series.

I don't really know about pre 89, but again old bikes that will require large amounts of maintenance and quite likely unreliable.

I would suggest 650 Pro Twins as I think it would be the best option for you, but if the budget allows one of the awesome Ozzy 450's is currently the best bang for buck if you want to win!

+1
I have spent almost 2 protwins on my post classic senior in the last two years.Its getting close to perfect but being in the top few on a 400 pre89 is going to cost money.450 kits ,17inch wheels ,engine work and maintence all add up if you want to win races.
If your after semi comp bike then smaller budget will get you good races in that class.

[Clivoris]

I agree with the above Jeff. It does depend a bit on your start-up budget but if I was starting again I would look closely at a pro-twin or Ozzy 450. Greater initial cost, but less monkeying around to get competitive in your chosen class. However, it is bloody hard to find someone racing posties and f3 on an old 400, who isn't having a bloody ball. Roadracingoldfart's 400 would have been ideal for you. Soooo cheap. Good luck mate.

[quickbuck]

If you go old school 400 route you will have a cheap to purchase bike, but as all things as they get older, it will become unreliable unless you spend large amounts of $$ on them, also they are not competitive in F3 these days.


Are you sure about that???

Somebody forgot to tell Chappy.....

It isn't so much money that improves reliability...
Well NOTHING improves reliability, all you can do is maintain the inherent reliability. This can be achieved my a solid methodical maintenance plan, and not crashing.

As for not competitive... well.... Rider ability comes into it A LOT!

My ten cents is if you are starting out, then get a pre 89 and cross enter into F3. Bang for buck has to be ZXR. Upside down forks and all..... For stopping power get a CBR... VFR if you love the torque, but 18" wheel, and almost totally limited to 400cc, and standard carbs are the down fall... FZR.. .Well there is an old one sitting at the back of the shop ;)
SV650's are a newish bike, were never designed as a race bike, and it actually costs quite a lot to get thm to the pointy end of the field...
Ozzy 450's well, I actually have mny own opinions on them... and sorry to say, if you do that, go Supersport racing with a real 600... Sorry, but that is the opinion I give for ten cents.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Are you sure about that???

Somebody forgot to tell Chappy.....

It isn't so much money that improves reliability...
Well NOTHING improves reliability, all you can do is maintain the inherent reliability. This can be achieved my a solid methodical maintenance plan, and not crashing.

As for not competitive... well.... Rider ability comes into it A LOT!

Hmm, I struggle to believe that Neils ZXR is anything near standard, and I've seen it not finish races before, and not make it to the start of races before. I have also seen some seriously shagged cams that have come from that motor. Reliable? Define reliable. To me it means change the oil, put fuel in it and push the start button. You can't do that with an old bike, simple.



Ozzy 450's well, I actually have mny own opinions on them... and sorry to say, if you do that, go Supersport racing with a real 600... Sorry, but that is the opinion I give for ten cents.


Is there any reasoning behind this? I think it's be well proved on two occasions that the Ozzy 450 is a brilliant F3 concept and is great way into competitive racing in F3 at well under half the cost of developing a competitive 650 or older 400. Not everyone wants the tyre bill of racing a 600 competitively!

[k14]

Is there any reasoning behind this? I think it's be well proved on two occasions that the Ozzy 450 is a brilliant F3 concept and is great way into competitive racing in F3 at well under half the cost of developing a competitive 650 or older 400. Not everyone wants the tyre bill of racing a 600 competitively!
Yes I struggle to see his logic too. He better be careful what he wishes for, at the current rate (and if the ozzy 450 wasn't "invented") there would be no bikes apart from SV's in 5 years time. Bang for buck you can't go past a 450. Race ready for under a grand and you can put it back to a 600 to race a season after you get to grips with the 450!

[Whitebait]

What about staying on a 2-stroke???

After spending a year and a half on a NSR250 with very little problems, a good source of pars for them.

Sure they're not the most competetive bike in the class but they're fun to ride and a hell of a lot lighter than those beef-cake 400's.

Check out www.motorcyclesonline.net or give Bill a call on 0274 311 378.

He has a couple of NSR's in stock at the mo and is always keen to help out young racers!:rockon:

[xr-rider]

what ever bike i get it will need to be road legal so it can be used on the road by my old man. the motor will be remaining standard. only thing that will be done to it is have slicks put on it and maybe fairings.

[xr-rider]

What about staying on a 2-stroke???

After spending a year and a half on a NSR250 with very little problems, a good source of pars for them.

Sure they're not the most competetive bike in the class but they're fun to ride and a hell of a lot lighter than those beef-cake 400's.

Check out www.motorcyclesonline.net or give Bill a call on 0274 311 378.

He has a couple of NSR's in stock at the mo and is always keen to help out young racers!:rockon:

i would like to stay on a 2 stroke but it would be no good on the road.

[xr-rider]

The question is really, how big is your budget and how competitive do you want to be?

If you go old school 400 route you will have a cheap to purchase bike, but as all things as they get older, it will become unreliable unless you spend large amounts of $$ on them, also they are not competitive in F3 these days.

Pro Twin will cost more for a bike, but you can pick up a very good bike for around the 8-10k mark or a cheaper but not as reliable one for about 6-7k and it will cost you a couple of sets of tyres to do a winter series.

I don't really know about pre 89, but again old bikes that will require large amounts of maintenance and quite likely unreliable.

I would suggest 650 Pro Twins as I think it would be the best option for you, but if the budget allows one of the awesome Ozzy 450's is currently the best bang for buck if you want to win!

we have a very small budget probably about 4k for the bike max plus some rims and slicks. possibly spare fairings as well. dont care how competitive i am(as long as i can keep up with russell)

[neil_cb125t]

Hmm, I struggle to believe that Neils ZXR is anything near standard, and I've seen it not finish races before, and not make it to the start of races before. I have also seen some seriously shagged cams that have come from that motor. Reliable? Define reliable. To me it means change the oil, put fuel in it and push the start button. You can't do that with an old bike, simple.


Haha the mud goes flying..... reliable - the Ozzy bike has dropped more valves than mine... as mine hasn;t dropped any. :gob:

my cam prob got fixed nice and easy - but im sure something else will pop up in the future.:bash:

We pulled out the fuel pump wire when we replaced a shock spring so thats why we didnt finish a race - oh and i ran out of gas in the other race.:Oops:

Old bikes are that - there old - but you can hold onto it and develope it, instead of swapping bikes every year. You'll hit snags like my cam problem with 30% more power at the back end than its suppose to have!!:rockon:

I would also put money on your bike gets more than an oil change before you race. Any championship contender needs to check everything all the time that why both of us are top, 3 in our classes!!:woohoo:

Back on topic -don't race a road bike, have a race/track bike. In posties and F3 you will always have someone to compete against even if its BOG standard, and there are many that are standard. Also all the F3 and postie guys are simply awesome - the all help each other out - hell Aj had 3 bikes offered to him last round.

Where as Pro twin machines will all have the MAX mods allowed ALL of them.

[steveyb]

Sorry Jeff, but your given scenario is a recipie for disaster in all aspects.
All you will end up doing is riding like its a trackday cos you can't crash the bike cos you dad needs it, so you can't push it when racing, so you will learn little.
And the bike will only be a road bike, so it will always handle poorly as a result, and so will always be a crash waiting to happen.
Inferring from your comments your budget, you can prob get an old 400 in race trim, but not one that can be used as a roadbike also.
But those bikes are maintenance intensive, quite hard to race actually (I know, I've tried) and getting expensive to find some parts.
An NSR 250 or RGV 250 is a very good alternative. They are fine roadbikes and can be raced in road (or slightly modded) trim.
Put it this way, a bog standard NSR250 in 1989 did 1:16.00 around Manfeild (with a good rider albeit), but it can be done, and I used to ride mine around Auckland with no worries.
Racing bikes takes a bit of money, that is just the way it is.

Steve

[Str8 Jacket]

Hey Jeff, there is absolutely no shame staying in Street Stock for another year while you save your arse off for 'a bigger race bike'. Hell, looks like me and M will both be doing another year of Street Stock until we can afford to do otherwise...

Race what you can afford, it lowers the stress levels! ;)

[codgyoleracer]

Hey Jeff, there is absolutely no shame staying in Street Stock for another year while you save your arse off for 'a bigger race bike'. Hell, looks like me and M will both be doing another year of Street Stock until we can afford to do otherwise...

Race what you can afford, it lowers the stress levels! ;)

Tend to agree:
1) make a commitment to a budget firstly - (& this may include finding sponsors money etc to establish said budget
2) Establish your practice & race schedule i'e club racing, street racing, nationals etc (& see how that fits into the budget)
3) Invest the budget in a class of racing that the budget will potentially allow good results in (top 3-5)
Glen

[Billy]

Hey Jeff, there is absolutely no shame staying in Street Stock for another year while you save your arse off for 'a bigger race bike'. Hell, looks like me and M will both be doing another year of Street Stock until we can afford to do otherwise...

Race what you can afford, it lowers the stress levels! ;)

Absolutely!!As Helen has said here,Do what you have the resources and budget to do properly,You wont do yourself or anybody else any favours by overextending yourself and turning up with an underprepared machine just because you dont have the funds.If streetstock is all you can afford to do properly,Then stick with it

[scracha]

You should have bought Roadracingoldfart's CBR400...flippin bargain mate.

The 400's. Very cheap (3 grand gets a nice one). A set of tyres lasts about umm...10 meetings!. You'll get good racing. Harder to get spares for. You can go in two classes if it's pre 89 (or theoretically also F2 but sod that unless you're really fast). The ZXR400's have the fastest motors but seem a little fragile.

The 650's. Not so cheap but unless you wreck it you'll get your money back. Tyres....I dunno but I'm guessing 3 or 4 meetings to be semi competitive. Much newer so less goes wrong with em. Once you're up to speed you can cross enter into F2.

There's also weird singles and strange Ducati twins in F3 :-)

If money is no object and you want to win F3 then an ozzie 450 would be the way to go IMHO.

You've also got shite old 600's (extremely cheap) to consider for pre 89 junior laughs. You'll have a hell of a time punting one of them around in F2 though and they eat tyres.

[MOTOXXX]

A set of tyres lasts about umm...10 meetings!.

I Wish!!



Its a hard D to make, ive often thought about pro twins, in the end its just depends on what you want to do.

If i was keen on doing nationals i would get an Pro Twins bike.

Im only keen on club and street racing
I chose a zxr400 and run F3 and posties. Sure ive spent a bit on mine (ive dropped two valves in 3 seasons (me not checking clearances enough) but i really enjoy the dices you get in F3 and posties.

There is always someone to battle with even if your a beginner, for me that is what has kept me interested in racing, being able to chase people and always going after the next bike.

[quallman1234]

Im with hels and Billy, do another season on the 150, you have it pretty well sorted maintenance wise now, and you have plenty more too learn on it.

[roadracingoldfart]

Hmm, I struggle to believe that Neils ZXR is anything near standard, and I've seen it not finish races before, and not make it to the start of races before. I have also seen some seriously shagged cams that have come from that motor. Reliable? Define reliable. To me it means change the oil, put fuel in it and push the start button. You can't do that with an old bike, simple.






Wrong Glen ....... 2 years ago one Luke Mair said to me , and i quote " dont you hate having to work on bikes between races and rounds just to keep them fast and reliable Paul "

I simply looked at him in a puzzled manner and told him apart from changing the oil every second round and putting fuel in i never touch my bike . O(nce a year service birthday and thats all.

He was stunned and it was a true statement , its a 21 year old bike i have canned the ass off for the last 3 or 4 years on that motor , the last motor ran a big end because i listened to an idiot (as it turned out ) and used a sub standard oil he advised was good.

I would be as you know be able to tell you why the problems happened to neil's bike as well and it was pure and simple mechanical misadventure. The motor in his bike is really not that radical and yet the results speak for themselves, a 21 yr old bike doing 1.15s round Manfeild, some 600 ss bikes cant do that because of rider inability, not the bike.

Sorry to rant but i am proof of a reliable bike and yet the cost of running it is very small , i ran the team for a season on $1000.00 including tyres and entries , dont dare tell me that its not possible , as it is , pure and simpler .

Paul.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Wrong Glen ....... 2 years ago one Luke Mair said to me , and i quote " dont you hate having to work on bikes between races and rounds just to keep them fast and reliable Paul "

I simply looked at him in a puzzled manner and told him apart from changing the oil every second round and putting fuel in i never touch my bike . O(nce a year service birthday and thats all.

He was stunned and it was a true statement , its a 21 year old bike i have canned the ass off for the last 3 or 4 years on that motor , the last motor ran a big end because i listened to an idiot (as it turned out ) and used a sub standard oil he advised was good.

I would be as you know be able to tell you why the problems happened to neil's bike as well and it was pure and simple mechanical misadventure. The motor in his bike is really not that radical and yet the results speak for themselves, a 21 yr old bike doing 1.15s round Manfeild, some 600 ss bikes cant do that because of rider inability, not the bike.

Sorry to rant but i am proof of a reliable bike and yet the cost of running it is very small , i ran the team for a season on $1000.00 including tyres and entries , dont dare tell me that its not possible , as it is , pure and simpler .

Paul.

Each to there own Paul, I will not disagree with you personal experiences!

I'm basing it on my experience with a 1989 ZXR400 that was supposed to be a "turn up put gas in it" type of bike, a few thousand dollars later and it was still a pile of unreliable crap, and also my two seasons of running a 125gp bike. Both old, and a bit long in the tooth.

Things wear out and fail, you can't deny that!

The last thing any young rider needs going through there head on a race day is bike problems, how can you learn to ride the thing and improve yourself if you spend more time trying to keep the thing going rather than focusing on riding. One of the best moves I ever made for my riding improvement was to put myself in a situation where I didn't have to worry about the bike. If it broke it was (mainly) someone else's problem and I could keep my head in the right frame of mind for racing!

Like others have said Geoff, it sounds like you will be in the best position to stay on your 150 for another season and continue learning without the stress and financial strain of running a bigger bike.

[Wingnut]

I have had a CBR400RR Race Bike for the last year and hasn't missed a beat. All the maintenance I have had to do is change the oil & filter. It has been a super introduction into the world of bike racing. All this for under 3K too.

Its on trade me too if anyones interested by the way. Long way down in Otago though.

All the best in whatever you decide.

Geoff.

[scracha]

I have had a CBR400RR Race Bike for the last year and hasn't missed a beat. All the maintenance I have had to do is change the oil & filter. It has been a super introduction into the world of bike racing. All this for under 3K too.


Gotta say the CBR400's are pretty bombproof. Crash damage repairs aside, mine has went 3 seasons with me caning the arse off it. Last time it had the valves done were ermm..when I bought it. Only mechanical fault has been a fooked radiator cap.

I hear that modern Suzuki's drop valves :dodge:

[sharky]

Gotta say the CBR400's are pretty bombproof. Crash damage repairs aside, mine has went 3 seasons with me caning the arse off it. Last time it had the valves done were ermm..when I bought it. Only mechanical fault has been a fooked radiator cap.

I hear that modern Suzuki's drop valves :dodge:

And how much INCLUDING the crash repairs Stevie?:whistle:

[McDuck]

Nice thread, i have a katana 400 and i am thinking about racing. I am tempted to sell it (i love it to much to risk crashing it) and go the cbr 400 or zxr 400 route, so keep it coming guys :)

[Marknz]

The motor in his bike is really not that radical and yet the results speak for themselves, a 21 yr old bike doing 1.15s round Manfeild, some 600 ss bikes cant do that because of rider inability, not the bike.


Hey, I resemble that remark!

:girlfight: :whistle:

[scroter]

Where as Pro twin machines will all have the MAX mods allowed ALL of them.

Hand up sorry, no offence intended but im still running mine with standard suspension, exhaust except for muffler and tuning, also run it on 1 set of road tyres for 2 years, it still went fine.

[scracha]

And how much INCLUDING the crash repairs Stevie?:whistle:
Cripes...have you seen my fairings? Needless to say not that much.

CBR400's are bulletproof. I mean, first mine survived Gav (HDTboy) and then has been crashed and abused for 3 years by my good self.