Race Licence "exam"

[FROSTY]

Throwing an idea out there to see what you folks think.
I'm proposing that all riders wishing to obtain a race licence for the first time be required to sit an OPEN BOOK exam before being given their licences. Baqsicly when the licence is sent in to MNZ they are required to answer a 25 question exam covering off Flags,passing,basic requirements for scruteenering etc.
BY open book It means theres no time limit and they can refer to ANY reference material they need to in order to pass.

[Nasty]

Throwing an idea out there to see what you folks think.
I'm proposing that all riders wishing to obtain a race licence for the first time be required to sit an OPEN BOOK exam before being given their licences. Baqsicly when the licence is sent in to MNZ they are required to answer a 25 question exam covering off Flags,passing,basic requirements for scruteenering etc.
BY open book It means theres no time limit and they can refer to ANY reference material they need to in order to pass.

Interesting proposition ... means anyone can get a license without thinking about it or actually knowing anything ... and doesn't need to remember it at all ....

Why no time limit? I have sat a number of exams which are open book - and they have time limits ... is saying no time limit so that people have more time to find the answers that they should perhaps know as a racer?

[Duke girl]

Its 1 thing answering a 25 question exam about Flags, passing, basic requirements to do with scruteenering and another to take that knowlegge out onto the Race Track and put it all into practice correctly.

When going for your licence on the road not only do you have to do the theory but you also have to do the practical, which should also be the same when applying for your Race Licence.

[scott411]

not a stupid idea at all Frosty,
you have to do something like that to get a MANZ car liceince.
and drag racing requires you to past driving tests as well,
Speedway have a mentor programme where you are looked after by someone expereinced for the 1st 3 meetings,
i think motorcycling is a bit more relaxed and you can get your liceince and go racing, i think a basic test that covers the flags, and basic racing rules would be great, but i think the training needs to come at club level, as it is pretty hard to enforce it at ground level from huntly,

[Maido]

Interesting proposition ... means anyone can get a license without thinking about it or actually knowing anything ... and doesn't need to remember it at all ....


As opposed to what we have now?
Great idea Frosty! The current system is flawed. I would like to see a practical test included also and a parole peroid.
At the moment your 15 year old son or daughter can buy Robbie Bugdens last years bike and go out and race without any prior track experience. Luckily people aren't that dumb....

[Ixion]

What of the effect that has on bucket racing?

And trials?

Already the requirement for a race licence is a major off putting factor for someone interested in getting into buckets (it's certainly put me off). And I believe that MNZ (? whatever their TLA is ) are trying to do a takeover of the trials scene. How is that going to fit in?

[Skunk]

I would say there are quite a few racers who don't know even the basic 4 flags and what they mean. This is demonstrated to us at nearly every meeting in one way or another.

There should be a written test of the basics (held at the monthly club meeting say) before a license is granted.

How can we protect rider A if rider B doesn't know what Black with Orange dot means?

[GSVR]

How can we protect rider A if rider B doesn't know what Black with Orange dot means?

Something to do with Jafas?

[slofox]

When I obtained a competition license way back when (early-mid 70's) there was indeed an exam to pass in order to get it. The exam was oral and covered pretty much what you suggest Frosty - emphasis on flags as I remember, but it did mean that you knew what the hell the marshall was trying to tell you when he waved the black flag at you frantically...:bye:

[CookMySock]

We are facing the same issue with the minimoto scene. No one really knows the procedures.

Keep it very simple and relevant. Just the basics.

Steve

[White trash]

What of the effect that has on bucket racing?

And trials?

Already the requirement for a race licence is a major off putting factor for someone interested in getting into buckets (it's certainly put me off). And I believe that MNZ (? whatever their TLA is ) are trying to do a takeover of the trials scene. How is that going to fit in?
Pretty simple actually.

As you must already be a member of an affiliated club to gain a licence (which I aggree is far to easy to come by), make it the responsibilty of the club to "endorse" the racers application proving they are competent in the theoretical side of their chosen class.

[johan]

I agree an exam should be the minimum requirement to obtain a race license.

Doing a day's course with theory and discussing all the things that are going on at a typically race meeting would be a great help for a rookie.

[McDuck]

Throwing an idea out there to see what you folks think.
I'm proposing that all riders wishing to obtain a race licence for the first time be required to sit an OPEN BOOK exam before being given their licences. Baqsicly when the licence is sent in to MNZ they are required to answer a 25 question exam covering off Flags,passing,basic requirements for scruteenering etc.
BY open book It means theres no time limit and they can refer to ANY reference material they need to in order to pass.

I disagree with the no time limit-we want the riders to know the basics. If you have it open book but with a raitivly short time limit (ie 45 min for a 25 question test) then it means the person need to have a working knowledge of the rules but not need to know every nit picky detail, just where to find them.

[Str8 Jacket]

How can we protect rider A if rider B doesn't know what Black with Orange dot means?

What about if the MNZ rep has no idea either?!?:Oops:

[Number One]

I think it's a great idea.

While an open book assessmnet wouldn't guarantee they remember the stuff at least it means they will actually have to make an effort to find out what they SHOULD know before taking the track...makes much more sense than a 'just pay your money and away you go' system.

[Toast]

Good idea Frosty - key being that it would cost next to nothing to roll out and enforce.

Having workshops, etc. would be great, but what you suggest would be an awesome starting point, make people think about things a bit, and be far better than the situation as it is now!

[Skunk]

What about if the MNZ rep has no idea either?!?:Oops:
OK, you get rep for that one! :killingme

[Nasty]

As opposed to what we have now?
Great idea Frosty! The current system is flawed. I would like to see a practical test included also and a parole peroid.
At the moment your 15 year old son or daughter can buy Robbie Bugdens last years bike and go out and race without any prior track experience. Luckily people aren't that dumb....


Hmmm what I was getting at is what we have now is inadequate ... what is suggested is also inadequate .. so why not put something in place that is not inadequate.

[scracha]

Stuff just the "theory" :- all the clubs have "training days"* so why not have experienced club members (with some sort of MNZ endorsement) follow new riders and perhaps coach them a little to see if they're competent (braking, turning, etc) before signing off their license? This could also be done on trackdays.

As the license application is now online then it wouldn't take much to put a theory test online. An annual refresher theory test for ALL riders wouldn't be stupid.

*and there's a practise day at quite a few events so perhaps have a couple of morning sessions for new riders to get their competency assessed.

[scott411]

[QUOTE=scracha;1129440976]
As the license application is now online then it wouldn't take much to put a theory test online. An annual refresher theory test for ALL riders wouldn't be stupid.
QUOTE]


thats is a very good idea, to fill out either online or by mail if you do it the old way,

[FROSTY]

Interesting proposition ... means anyone can get a license without thinking about it or actually knowing anything ... and doesn't need to remember it at all ....

Why no time limit? I have sat a number of exams which are open book - and they have time limits ... is saying no time limit so that people have more time to find the answers that they should perhaps know as a racer?
Ya see currently ANYONE can get a race licence by joining a club and filling out the form. NO flag etc knowledge needed AT ALL -Front up with a licence and your all good to go


Im proposing that FIRST TIME licence applicants need to do a questioneer before they will be given their licence.No time limit so they can look the info up on the MNZ site or even by asking on here. The HOW they get the knowledge doesn't matter Its the fact that they will at least have SOME knowledge of the system before fronting for their first meeting.

[Shorty_925]

Stuff just the "theory" :- all the clubs have "training days"* so why not have experienced club members (with some sort of MNZ endorsement) follow new riders and perhaps coach them a little to see if they're competent (braking, turning, etc) before signing off their license? This could also be done on trackdays.

As the license application is now online then it wouldn't take much to put a theory test online. An annual refresher theory test for ALL riders wouldn't be stupid.

*and there's a practise day at quite a few events so perhaps have a couple of morning sessions for new riders to get their competency assessed.

Making it any harder would turn more newbies off racing. Plenty of people turn up to non MNZ trackdays and off road trail rides which speaks volumes for what people want/want to do.

Look at the amount of non MNZ off road endurance events turning up out there. The 4-hour off road race in Taupo had 200+ riders in it, yes Im sure some would be MNZ members as well.

Im all for the training from some more experienced riders, but that would be either a two day event or a stand alone training day, which is more expense for the club and rider. I know some off-road clubs around where I am they used to get the faster guys within the club to do training days.

[Billy]

Throwing an idea out there to see what you folks think.
I'm proposing that all riders wishing to obtain a race licence for the first time be required to sit an OPEN BOOK exam before being given their licences. Baqsicly when the licence is sent in to MNZ they are required to answer a 25 question exam covering off Flags,passing,basic requirements for scruteenering etc.
BY open book It means theres no time limit and they can refer to ANY reference material they need to in order to pass.

Yip,Bloody good idea,Already suggested to 1 club they take the initiative and make it part of their entry form and also mentioned it too Jim Tuckerman about the same time (approx 3 months ago).Havent seen any action from MNZ at this stage,But who knows???

[FROSTY]

Nasty--From memory you are involved with vic club so you get where I'm coming from here.
Heres the thing as someone's pointed out.Make it too tough and it could really easilly have the effect of putting people off joining up and giving racing a go.
So a test requiring a 100% correct answer rate to pass will mean they come armed with the basic knowledge needed.
I actually propsed to Paul Pav a year or so ago that to get a ROAD/sealed track race licence that you should attend at least one track day --the likes of MotoTT BEFORE being allowed to race.
Trouble is there seems to be a heck of a lot less of that sort of thing in the mainland which would be unfair.

[racerhead]

Heres the way it works in the UK

This was brought in a couple of years back and seems to work ok

"
ACU Training Course for Road Race Licence Applicants
As part of the ACU’s ongoing policy of rider development and education, all first-time applicants for Novice and Intermediate Novice Road Race licences, and riders who wish to renew a lapsed licence, must undergo a training course.
The ACU training course is classroom-based and designed specifically for you. The purpose of the course is to ensure that you understand the basic safety and organisational requirements to participate in Road Racing. Before any new licence can be issued you must satisfactorily attend the course and pass the multiple-choice test. If you have any worries that you may find the end-of-course test difficult to complete, please call the ACU on the above number.
The course is held every Monday at ACU House, Rugby (except on Bank Holidays), starting at 11.00am and finishing at approximately 3.00pm. To book your place on the course please complete the attached form. The fee for the course includes the course notes and the test itself. If you are the parent of a youth rider you must attend the course with them.
Please note: you will have one year, from the date you attend the training course, to apply for your ACU Competition Licence.
To obtain your Competition Licence you must also prove your competence to ride a motorcycle. You can do this in one of the following ways:-
• Obtain a certificate of competence from an ACU recognised track-based training school and attach this to your licence application form.
• If you hold a valid DVLA Class A driving licence or valid CBT Certificate attach a photocopy of this to your licence application form.
• If you have held an ACU Competition Licence for a minimum of one year for any off-road discipline attach a photocopy of this, along with a result sheet from a race, to your licence application form.
During January - March the training course may occasionally be available at alternative venues. Details will be published on the ACU website.
Please complete the Booking Form overleaf and return it, together with the booking fee of £50.00 per person, to the ACU at the above address. Please do not apply for your licence until you have successfully completed the training course."

[Shorty_925]

And what about day licences...? How would you still keep them?

[FROSTY]

And what about day licences...? How would you still keep them?
Good point ol son
Maybee day licences only issued to people with expired race licences?

[Henk]

Just to be a difficult bugger
I race buckets with the ocassional Enduro, MX, Cross country and Trial thrown in for good measure. Do I need to sit 4 tests? and does the fact that I've filled a couple of log books off road change anything when I rock up for my first road race?
On another note. One of my old log books has a "Has completed the requisite 6 meetings" stamp in it, all off road, but would that let me as a suicidal idiot buy the aforementioned Buggden bike and rock up to the boxing day races?

At the buckets and pretty much all off road races I have taken part in, at breifing somebody usualy says something along the lines of "Anyone here never done this before?" followed by a crash course in how things work for newbies, this seems to work and is probably as useful as filling out an open book no time limit test sometime in the preceeding 6 months to my mind.

[roadracingoldfart]

What about if the MNZ rep has no idea either?!?:Oops:


Ohhhh you are soooo on the dot with that call . Too many made up regs quoted by idiots that bluff thier way to authority.


OK, you get rep for that one! :killingme


I hope you meant good rep , not red.



.

[roadracingoldfart]

Good point ol son
Maybee day licences only issued to people with expired race licences?

Day licences have been an issue for many yrs Frosty , as you know.
Your idea has merit and i would put my hand up to get a plan like this going in my area.
In 1982 when i started i had to do all the grade races first and then go onto a Formula class.

They were like a nursery class as Clubmans should be now.

[Shorty_925]

Good point ol son
Maybee day licences only issued to people with expired race licences?

And for the people that want to try racing without purchasing a complete licence or the expense of a full licence, the day licence is the best option to get into motorcycling, on-road or off-road.

[paigeo]

Having been an innocent party in a serious accident I too would welcome some sort of training. Maybe not a test but a mentor program. Someone to point out what to do and when. Some sort of probation period where the competitor must stay near the rear of the field to be observed before getting into the thick of things.
Looking back most of the our sports VERY serious accidents could have been prevented with a little education.:bash:

[oyster]

Good on ya Frosty for recognising we have a need to improve safety, especially to our newcomers. I'm not sure a "test" is really the way, it's really just a hollow form of policing. And training wins hands down over policing any day. What's really needed is a good manual with a focus on safety.
Typically, someone would come into the sport thus. Through heresay promotion, club website, posters etc they might contact a racer or the club. The club then refers them to a "Club Captain" who, in advance offers via phone e-mail or personal contact gives them a run down on the safety matters and procedures for meeting, their first. A mail out gives them a one page flyer to study up on basic safety for new comers. At their first meeting they are met and supervised throughout by this club person. Sign in, riders breif etc etc to ensure all is explained. Bike, gear check etc as well. Then at the first meeting no racing, just training sessions under close supervision. Once they, and their mentor /guide feel confident they progress to a flag start race. Sometimes this might take several race meetings. With vest on and starting off the back they get underway, continuing their coaching questions and guidance. At this point they are getting to know people and the club mentor introduces them to potential "buddy" relationships where they feel comfortable over a longer period of time that they have help and advice always close at hand.
Add to all this good riders breifings, complete with a BIG sign showing all the flags and their meanings. And finally, we really do need the FULL safety manual, which is a guidebook for everyone, fast or slow, new or experienced to learn from.

[oyster]

Great timing PAIGEO! I was writing my post as yours was going up so when I went back, yep, we're on exactly the same track.

People in Canterbury would understand pretty quicklty what I'm on about, for quite a few years now we've made a big effort to handle our "new inductions" with the very best in bringing them into the sport safely. Time has shown the basic principle of education and training at the start puts them on a good platform to progress from. And the more you get the "regulars" to give a little of their time and experience to new ones, they reflect on the new sense of satisfaction they get also. Then these wheels start to turn automatically.
Winning in all ways......

[FROSTY]

And for the people that want to try racing without purchasing a complete licence or the expense of a full licence, the day licence is the best option to get into motorcycling, on-road or off-road. Hey dude I'm hearing ya and the very LAST thing I want to do is to discourage ANYONE from dipping their toe in the road racing waters so to speak.
The flip side being its pretty darn nuts paying a bit of money and being allowed out on track on a (for example) gsxr1000 with apsolutely NO flag,safe passing etc knowledge as per the current system. I can 100% assure you this has happened and recently.
I'm NOT commenting in any way on the OFFROAD world I don't know enough to make an educated comment.




Having been an innocent party in a serious accident I too would welcome some sort of training. Maybe not a test but a mentor program. Someone to point out what to do and when. Some sort of probation period where the competitor must stay near the rear of the field to be observed before getting into the thick of things.
Looking back most of the our sports VERY serious accidents could have been prevented with a little education.:bash:
I'd argue that this is EXACTLY the point the clubmans class was origonally created to cater to -so Yes if you havent raced before you should be in orange vest back of the clubmans grid for one meeting.


Good on ya Frosty for recognising we have a need to improve safety, especially to our newcomers. I'm not sure a "test" is really the way, it's really just a hollow form of policing. And training wins hands down over policing any day. What's really needed is a good manual with a focus on safety.
Typically, someone would come into the sport thus. Through heresay promotion, club website, posters etc they might contact a racer or the club. The club then refers them to a "Club Captain" who, in advance offers via phone e-mail or personal contact gives them a run down on the safety matters and procedures for meeting, their first. A mail out gives them a one page flyer to study up on basic safety for new comers. At their first meeting they are met and supervised throughout by this club person. Sign in, riders breif etc etc to ensure all is explained. Bike, gear check etc as well. Then at the first meeting no racing, just training sessions under close supervision. Once they, and their mentor /guide feel confident they progress to a flag start race. Sometimes this might take several race meetings. With vest on and starting off the back they get underway, continuing their coaching questions and guidance. At this point they are getting to know people and the club mentor introduces them to potential "buddy" relationships where they feel comfortable over a longer period of time that they have help and advice always close at hand.
Add to all this good riders breifings, complete with a BIG sign showing all the flags and their meanings. And finally, we really do need the FULL safety manual, which is a guidebook for everyone, fast or slow, new or experienced to learn from.
Mate I agree with what you are saying in principle as you well know :innocent:
But as I commented above it might actually DIScourage new racers rather than ENCOURAGE. Im thinking to keep it to the basics you NEED to know. Where Yes knowing what the waved red/yellow flag is important -knowing the RED, BLACK,and YELLOW flags are apsolutely vital.
Thats not to say you aren't bang on right just getting that level of training for ALL new racers might prove difficult

I threw the idea up in this very forum to run a BASIC race training trackday.
The idea was to run through a few starts,cover off the flags,cover off passing rules. run some mock "races" etc.
This was aimed specifically at trackdayers that might want to try racing

[paigeo]

:sweatdropIf any rules are made in regarding this matter then we do need to be carefull. Some sort of training come educating is needed but we cant put off new blood getting into this sport. New participants need to have fun first time on the track otherwise they wont come back. Likewise if they have to jump hurdles just to get out there.

[Kickaha]

When I raced Karts they had about 3 grades of licence but a beginner always started in clubmans, once they wanted to move up they asked the steward for a "observation" which meant they did a brief test on the flags and had to get something like 7/10 right, there racing was observed by the steward for the day and if they felt it was satisfactory they got a c grade licence which meant they could compete in other classes at a club level

same process for a "B" but you has to get 8/10 and then you could compete in Island level competion, then an "A" for National level and 9/10 or 10/10 right on the questions which from memory was focused totally on the flags

Not really relevant for bikes but once you went from sprint racing to long track you had to go through the same process again although it was possible to skip a grade if they thought you were up to it

With Motorcycles unless a day licence holder has previously competed or has an expired licence they shouldn't be running in anything but clubmans

[scracha]

Making it any harder would turn more newbies off racing. Plenty of people turn up to non MNZ trackdays and off road trail rides which speaks volumes for what people want/want to do.

Trackdays generally have rules (i.e. no undertaking) and safety procedures. Ride like a dick and you're sent packing. What people want to do isn't particularly relevant.....I want to fly planes but nobody is stupid enough to let me without having first proven I can handle one.

I can't comment on off-road stuff but does a trail ride involve racing?. Regardless, I dare say there are some 'rules' and general etiquette that has to be followed.

Re practical assessment. I'm not advocating making road racing "harder", just "safer". I'd envisage there being at least 2 or 3 "endorsed" riders at most track-days who could follow a trackdayer who "wants to try out racing" around the track and sign their license to say they rode competently THAT DAY. Get two trackdays signed off by two different "endorsed" riders, you can go racing. Nobody who's capable of racing to any degree should find the test difficult. Nobody should really be racing without having first done at least a couple of trackdays. I just dont want to share the track with some goldwing rider who fancies himself piloting a 1000cc sportsbike around the track and does stupid stuff like not looking before coming out of pit-lane or who does 2 laps at walking pace when their bike has problems. The assessment should even prove "fun" and "useful".

"endorsed"...I dunno what the criterion for that could be....perhaps someone who's raced in the appropriate or "bigger" class a minimum of 10 times over the previous 2 years ?

Annual MNZ license, tick the correct boxes on the webbysite test or printed app form.

Day licenses......compulsory 10 minute briefing in a separate pit and perhaps a scratchy test.


MNZ license could be categorised into the different disciplines. You wouldn't want muggins here turning up to a top MX meeting and causing carnage at the first corner.


I don't have any problem wearing a day-glow bib for the first few races in a new class.

[jellywrestler]

forgive my ingnorance I'm not up with the play, is there one MNZ licence these days or do you need a different licence to race farm bikes as opposed to road racing etc?

[Shorty_925]

forgive my ingnorance I'm not up with the play, is there one MNZ licence these days or do you need a different licence to race farm bikes as opposed to road racing etc?

1 Licence to cover all forms if that is purchased or a club licence which you can only take part in events run by that club. So you could go from Trials to road racing etc

[Shorty_925]

MNZ license could be categorised into the different disciplines.

Suggest youd be opening a can of worms with that one. Smaller disciplines would probably splinter and get cheaper insurance else where. Trials comes to mind. Bugger all get injured in that sport compared to most other disciplines in a year.

[SWERVE]

I totally agree with you oyster with the principle being safety and the 'buddy system"
But we must not put all the blame on newbies for not knowing or adhering to the rules etc. There are a lot of much more experienced riders who dont know(or chose not to know) about flags etc. While some of the blame obviously needs to lay with the individuals in question the club also has to "get it right too"
Why does MNZ or clubs not produce a simple single sheet for flags which all riders can pin up in their workshop or van etc for quick easy reference or reminder..much easier than finding it in rule book.
Also a whiteboard at briefings with track map and POSTION of flag points on track.......alot of people new and old couldn,t tell you where they are.

Having raced in the Uk and attended many meetings and trackdays i have to say the way riders briefings and the "make it up on the day" way in which meetings are run is a worry sometimes.
Both at MCC and at Vic club meetings WHY does the person giving the breifing not have a microphone or at least a hand-held loud hailer battling with weather/wind and at ruapuna /aircraft usually make the a large part of the briefing unaudible. (Oh and lets not forget the starting of bikes during this and people who attend ,but only to talk to the person next to them) Its just as important for pit crew/helpers toattend & understand the days procedure (not revving bikes) and "talkers' should be jumped on.
A good system that a UK track day company that i used to help out at was to either hold briefing in a room with one exit or to tape of an area with only one exit............at the exit stood a girl (pretty ones work best) who handed out a small laminated/coloured card to everyone as they left......this card went in the gap between screen & fairing (or visible position at front) for the first session as you rode thru track entry SLOWLY! same person would pick them off your machine........ no card= not attended briefing= no racing till you went and got breifing and card to prove. NO EXCEPTIONS.
Im not having a go as i realise that all of the organisers/staff at our meetings work volenterally and without them none of us would race at all. But all it takes is a little bit of thought and organistaion which in time will be beneficial to ALL. I know the clubs are trying and it is improving and it is good beacause thanks to them this is a GROWING sport and the feilds just keep growing.
My $ worth.

[Bsym1]

Personnally it sounds like a good idea, as a someone who currently just races buckets but is looking to move toward clubmans, the idea of the track mentoring is especially appealling not just from an etiquitte and rules ooint of view but also from the perspective of learning a track which should make you a bit quicker and safer if you are not getting cut up by the front runners. Personnally I have had some good advice and help from Chris, Skunk, Fishy and the Wellington bucket guys which does help especially when starting to race in a pack for the first time, as someone coming up the inside can be a bit disconcerting initially.

If someone could post a link to the MNZ rule book especially around flags and track etiquitte would be good.

I looked at the road race rules and they require 3 recorded track events in a race log before you are eligible, maybe that could work well for track racing as well with the first three races in clubmans wearing the vest until deemed at a level to move into the main classes by the stewards. That woudl see racers being able to get signed off in a weekend and still get to go racing while qualifying for the higher grades.

[scott411]

its under conduct of competitors,

http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/download/Chapter_6_Conduct_of_Competitions.pdf

its under 6-19

[Skunk]

While some of the blame obviously needs to lay with the individuals in question the club also has to "get it right too"
Why does MNZ or clubs not produce a simple single sheet for flags which all riders can pin up in their workshop or van etc for quick easy reference or reminder..much easier than finding it in rule book.
Also a whiteboard at briefings with track map and POSTION of flag points on track.......alot of people new and old couldn,t tell you where they are.

All riders sign a entry form that (among other things says you are confirming YOU HAVE READ AND UNDERSTOOD THE RULES. Now you want clubs to hand out reminder sheets? :laugh: Why not photocopy it yourself when you do your regularly read of the rule book?

Vic Club gets the flaggies to hold out the yellow flag for the first lap of practice so riders can see where the flag points are. With the trouble some riders have reading a grid sheet I'm not sure if they could read a map. Surprisingly they still find their way to the track...

MNZ should start testing before they issue the licence in conjunction with with the Clubs. This has to be done by MNZ... Clubs don't control the licences.

[Bsym1]

Cheers for that


its under conduct of competitors,

http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/download/Chapter_6_Conduct_of_Competitions.pdf

its under 6-19

[FROSTY]

MNZ should start testing before they issue the licence in conjunction with with the Clubs. This has to be done by MNZ... Clubs don't control the licences.
YEP dude thats where I'm coming from. At the point a licence is first issued MNZ have an oppertunity to do something really positive for our sport

[SWERVE]

I agree Skunk!
Clubs/organisations do have indemnities in place by signing the entry form and in a perfect world that should be all it takes. Basically its your responsibility to know the rules and be safe to yourself and others.............. but this is the'real world' where people dont use good old 'common sense' and a so many 'adults' still have to have their hands held and arses wiped constantly.
Its a sad fact but organising bodies have to have a direction indicator at every corner and 'BIG' reminder signs everywhere these days.
Just suggested a couple of ideas that although maybe a bit overkill have worked in other situations.
Not the 'magic cure' but reasonabely cheap and good 'arse covering' ideas.
Apoligies for ranting but this is one of my 'sore points'

[FROSTY]

But we must not put all the blame on newbies for not knowing or adhering to the rules etc.
Mate In NO way am I blaming any group of riders. I just feel there is a great opertunity for MNZ to do something great that would improve rider safety. Actually I'd suggest perhaps that if this was run with that ALL MNZ licence holders should sit the compulsary test the first year then new licence holders from then on.

[Billy]

Mate In NO way am I blaming any group of riders. I just feel there is a great opertunity for MNZ to do something great that would improve rider safety. Actually I'd suggest perhaps that if this was run with that ALL MNZ licence holders should sit the compulsary test the first year then new licence holders from then on.

So tell MNZ then,No point talking to anybody else about it as all theyll do is pass the buck straight back at MNZ rather than take it upon themselves too take the initiative and show MNZ what good leadership is.Go figure!!!(outside of Motorcycling Canterbury)

[CookMySock]

I think you guys are over complicating it.

There are only about 10-15 things people really must must must know. Make a leaflet that explains these things, and then have a little multi-choice written 10 minute "test" for people to fill out and hand in.

Seriously, if people are going to give racing a miss because they don't want to learn about the most basic procedures, then you don't need or want them.

Steve

[Skunk]

I think you guys are over complicating it.

There are only about 10-15 things people really must must must know. Make a leaflet that explains these things, and then have a little multi-choice written 10 minute "test" for people to fill out and hand in.

Seriously, if people are going to give racing a miss because they don't want to learn about the most basic procedures, then you don't need or want them.

Steve
They don't give racing a miss.
We (as organisers) can't stop them racing because or a little 'test' we give them.
We run events under a permit issued by MNZ. By getting that Permit we have agreed to MNZ's rules.
We must change MNZ.

[ajturbo]

Interesting proposition ... means anyone can get a license without thinking about it or actually knowing anything ... and doesn't need to remember it at all ....

Why no time limit? I have sat a number of exams which are open book - and they have time limits ... is saying no time limit so that people have more time to find the answers that they should perhaps know as a racer?
it is still better than what we have now... pay ya money, you get a licence...

i'm all for it... but with a time limit...

[Shaun]

You are just thinking to much again frosty, go and detail some cars

[CookMySock]

We (as organisers) can't stop them racing because or a little 'test' we give them.Then don't. Just give them the leaflet. Tell them to get up to speed on it. If they don't, then you have done your bit.


We must change MNZ.You are biting off much more than necessary.

Make the leaflet. Give it to newbies. Tell to them read it and fill it out. When they give it back to you, flush it down the toilet.

Steve

[Str8 Jacket]

Then don't. Just give them the leaflet. Tell them to get up to speed on it. If they don't, then you have done your bit.

You are biting off much more than necessary.

Make the leaflet. Give it to newbies. Tell to them read it and fill it out. When they give it back to you, flush it down the toilet.

Steve

I am sorry but I think I need to re-iterate that 'Personal Responsibility' and 'Common Sense' are not well demonstrated these day's. Unfortunately some of us just take it for granted....

They (Vic CLub) have a website and they also publish the rules, people manage to enter OK so they know what's up. You have to sign an indemnity stating that you have read the rules etc. If people haven't then it's unfair to the club and every other racer.

While I am completely sober and happy, I do have to agree with Frosty regarding MNZ making the licence process a bit tougher.

[lukemillar]

Heres the way it works in the UK

This was brought in a couple of years back and seems to work ok

"

Yep. Coming from the UK, I was really surprised that you could get a competition licence just by filling out the form. I was expecting a school day exactly as proposed. Though I don't think they do an exam in the uk - just a days training

[Nasty]

Then don't. Just give them the leaflet. Tell them to get up to speed on it. If they don't, then you have done your bit.

You are biting off much more than necessary.

Make the leaflet. Give it to newbies. Tell to them read it and fill it out. When they give it back to you, flush it down the toilet.

Steve

Before you race you sign a form saying you have read the rules. What is this extra leaflet meant to do. Give them a leaflet and not have them read the rules is what this indicates and that is actually really unsafe - there are more rules than flags and people need to get their heads around them to compete safely.

Its actually not the clubs responsbility - what they have is explainations in multiple places to reiterate the rules - including rider briefing. The change needs to be made at MNZ level - they are the ones who issue the permits - they are also the ones who had the liability insurance for these events. Clubs do all they can within their capabilities - but what you say is a big bite - well take a chunk and start chewing - if changes are warrented then the members of MNZ need to start agitating to get them made.

[FROSTY]

Nasty--Think about this for a moment. There is a flaw in the system and SOMEBODY needs to get the ball rolling.
Otherwise it goes in the too hard basket for everyone

[Sidewinder]

its not !!!!!!!!!!

[Kickaha]

Nasty--Think about this for a moment. There is a flaw in the system and SOMEBODY needs to get the ball rolling.
Otherwise it goes in the too hard basket for everyone

The only flaw in the system is the members who join clubs then can't be bothered with the responsibility of learning what is required because they're to bloody lazy but are still quite happy to sign an entry form stating they are familiar with and will abide by the MNZ competition rules

[scrivy]

The only flaw in the system is the members who join clubs then can't be bothered with the responsibility of learning what is required because they're to bloody lazy but are still quite happy to sign an entry form stating they are familiar with and will abide by the MNZ competition rules

Shall we punish them with a membership to your 'CLUB'??? :msn-wink:

Unfortunately we're all lazy Kick..... some at submitting entries, some at joining clubs/associations, and some people are lazy sitting on the back of LCR's.....

:niceone::cool:

[johan]

It's up to the rider to read and learn the rule book. Even if the rider do so, there are still topics that one could benefit from discussing with other riders.

Just take the thread about the yellow flag here on KB as an example. One would think it's as easy as 'no passing under yellow flag', but I remember there were a lot of different interpretations on the topic.

The rider is also expected to build and maintain a bike that is safe and complies with the rules. Some clubs don't do scrutineering at the race meetings so it's up to the rider to do so.
It's hard to find mechanical faults if you don't know what to look for.

There are a lot of things to get your head around as a new racer. Even if the rider make an effort to read the rules, there are many small things that can easily be overlooked because of lack of education, not necessarily because the ride lack interest of learning it...

[steveyb]

I find it ridiculous and frankly quite sadly laughable, considering the inherent danger involved in this sport, that anyone would suggest, let alone contemplate, that imposing an educational attainment level would scare anyone away from participating.

If you are one that would be in that boat, then I say we are better off without you, so just leave now. I don't want my mates, son, daughter, wife or myself on the track with you.

It is all well and good to speak of the idealities of indemnity forms, personal responsibility, reading rules, handouts and informal training, but the reality, sad as it may seem, is that only 10-20% of any group will make the required effort to attain the level of knowledge required to be conversent with the rules and safety procedures of the activity.

This is because the remaining 80-90% will convince themselves that they already know it all, they can ask their mates 'cos they will know (not understanding that they are part of the 80-90%), they will pick it up as they go (and therefore be ignorant while picking it up), or they simply believe that the rules don't apply to them (this is actually true).

The unfortunate consquence is that a form of compulsory education IS required. Why do we have a form of road licence training system? For the same reasons. Everyone would just go and drive if there were no requirements, with all of the ensuing chaos.

Moto Academy NZ is willing, able and indeed has been planning for some time to offer such courses around the country, at different times, in order to try and lift the standards in this sport in NZ. In this way the club officials who are already overloaded do not get more work to do.

Ask yourself, Would you rather your son/daughter be on the grid with 30 racers who had attended and DEMOSTRATED that they understood at least some of the content, or 30 racers who believe that the rules are for the other 29 racers?

Enjoy.

[wharfy]

It's up to the rider to read and learn the rule book. Even if the rider do so, there are still topics that one could benefit from discussing with other riders.

Just take the thread about the yellow flag here on KB as an example. One would think it's as easy as 'no passing under yellow flag', but I remember there were a lot of different interpretations on the topic.

The rider is also expected to build and maintain a bike that is safe and complies with the rules. Some clubs don't do scrutineering at the race meetings so it's up to the rider to do so.
It's hard to find mechanical faults if you don't know what to look for.

There are a lot of things to get your head around as a new racer. Even if the rider make an effort to read the rules, there are many small things that can easily be overlooked because of lack of education, not necessarily because the ride lack interest of learning it...

It is a bit daunting when you first get into it, I found the Vic Club very helpful Clive even came round and checked out my bike to make sure it was OK.

The Vic Club also run pretty good meetings, I think a "test" (either written or oral) of the rules around flags/procedures/protocols and rider conduct would be no bad thing.
The Technical rules are a bit of a nightmare, I think they are badly written and have been modified so much that they are really confusing (untold threads on here about what they "mean" is evidence of that). I don't care if someone is running a modified "air box" but I would be really pissed off if I binned on someone's glycol - or oil 'cause their sump plug fell out through lack of a "lock wire".

Most race meetings have official "scrutineering" of bikes and gear for "safety" reasons (note to self - tether kill switch for Greymouth) and some of them have "hi vis" vests or T-shirts for newbies.

[ajturbo]

I find it ridiculous and frankly quite sadly laughable, considering the inherent danger involved in this sport, that anyone would suggest, let alone contemplate, that imposing an educational attainment level would scare anyone away from participating.

If you are one that would be in that boat, then I say we are better off without you, so just leave now. I don't want my mates, son, daughter, wife or myself on the track with you.

It is all well and good to speak of the idealities of indemnity forms, personal responsibility, reading rules, handouts and informal training, but the reality, sad as it may seem, is that only 10-20% of any group will make the required effort to attain the level of knowledge required to be conversent with the rules and safety procedures of the activity.

This is because the remaining 80-90% will convince themselves that they already know it all, they can ask their mates 'cos they will know (not understanding that they are part of the 80-90%), they will pick it up as they go (and therefore be ignorant while picking it up), or they simply believe that the rules don't apply to them (this is actually true).

The unfortunate consquence is that a form of compulsory education IS required. Why do we have a form of road licence training system? For the same reasons. Everyone would just go and drive if there were no requirements, with all of the ensuing chaos.

Moto Academy NZ is willing, able and indeed has been planning for some time to offer such courses around the country, at different times, in order to try and lift the standards in this sport in NZ. In this way the club officials who are already overloaded do not get more work to do.

Ask yourself, Would you rather your son/daughter be on the grid with 30 racers who had attended and DEMOSTRATED that they understood at least some of the content, or 30 racers who believe that the rules are for the other 29 racers?

Enjoy.

hey stev.. get this up and running for next year.. i will TRY and make it compulsory for any of the vic sponsored riders to attend!!!

[Billy]

hey stev.. get this up and running for next year.. i will TRY and make it compulsory for any of the vic sponsored riders to attend!!!

If everything goes too plan,There will be a comprehensive and thorough schooling of the MNZ rulebook during the proposed NZBADD junior streetstock series for 2010 of which I am hoping to have the final draft finished tonight in order to hand to Clive Banks (VMCC) and Nigel from the pac club at Manfeild this weekend.It will be ultimately targeting the junior (under 20) streetstock riders,But will also be open to anybody else thats interested.There will be testing of scheduled chapters at each round as well as rider training from one of the countrys top ex superbike riders and by far the most experienced coach in NZ.As well as instruction on bike preparation and maintenance and much more.There will be a proper explanation after this weekend

[ajturbo]

If everything goes too plan,There will be a comprehensive and thorough schooling of the MNZ rulebook during the proposed NZBADD junior streetstock series for 2010 of which I am hoping to have the final draft finished tonight in order to hand to Clive Banks (VMCC) and Nigel from the pac club at Manfeild this weekend.It will be ultimately targeting the junior (under 20) streetstock riders,But will also be open to anybody else thats interested.There will be testing of scheduled chapters at each round as well as rider training from one of the countrys top ex superbike riders and by far the most experienced coach in NZ.As well as instruction on bike preparation and maintenance and much more.There will be a proper explanation after this weekend
fringin GREAT billy!!!!

THANKS

[nigela]

If everything goes too plan,There will be a comprehensive and thorough schooling of the MNZ rulebook during the proposed NZBADD junior streetstock series for 2010 of which I am hoping to have the final draft finished tonight in order to hand to Clive Banks (VMCC) and Nigel from the pac club at Manfeild this weekend.It will be ultimately targeting the junior (under 20) streetstock riders,But will also be open to anybody else thats interested.There will be testing of scheduled chapters at each round as well as rider training from one of the countrys top ex superbike riders and by far the most experienced coach in NZ.As well as instruction on bike preparation and maintenance and much more.There will be a proper explanation after this weekend


That will be great thanks Billie.
I am also looking at probably doing a roll call at riders briefing for round 1 of the BRM Summer Series, and if you don't attend you don't ride until after I get around to briefing you.
The briefing will have to be a bit longer because of this but since people choose to use the excuse of "I didn't know about that" I think it will be needed

[FROSTY]

The only flaw in the system is the members who join clubs then can't be bothered with the responsibility of learning what is required because they're to bloody lazy but are still quite happy to sign an entry form stating they are familiar with and will abide by the MNZ competition rules
Nope the flaw is that society in New Zealand has changed in such a way that people rather than finding a solution they would rather play the blame game.. Sadly a group of contributors to this thread demonstrate this
This is an opertunity for clubs but I must say ultimately MNZ to do something about it

[roogazza]

The only flaw in the system is the members who join clubs then can't be bothered with the responsibility of learning what is required because they're to bloody lazy but are still quite happy to sign an entry form stating they are familiar with and will abide by the MNZ competition rules
+1 At the risk of sounding old (again) I don't remember there being crap like this 40 yrs ago . At 20 I applied for a licence, sussed racing, read the required rules and turned up. Wanganui in the rain, 1970.
I shakes my head !!! G. :bash:

[nirrep]

Good to see your spelling and typing are improving there Billy. Give me a call if you need help with anything

[wharfy]

Nope the flaw is that society in New Zealand has changed in such a way that people rather than finding a solution they would rather play the blame game.. Sadly a group of contributors to this thread demonstrate this
This is an opertunity for clubs but I must say ultimately MNZ to do something about it

Well with ACC being privatized it won't be long before people begin suing sports organizations for compensation if they have an accident.