250s VS 600+?

[wbks]

I'm not a hard rider on the road no matter what bike, but I noticed today that around any decent corners (which is where fun is, don't really care for top speeds) I never actually go over half or 3/4 throttle, and less than that is enough to be going way too fast than is safe once things start revving. Kind of makes things boring: Brake into corner-lean-roll on gas out of it, repeat... Compared to ringing the shit out of any 250 but still being barely above legal speeds on the same piece of road... Up and down through gears, knee skimming, braking as hard as 20 y/o calipers will, and still only doing 120 or so through twisties and having fun compared to riding "relaxed" and 200 comes up too fast despite riding like a nanna through corners. Beginning to think maybe I shifted to a big bike too soon, but I still enjoy the torque and modern gauges/chassis/susp. Any of you ever felt like that? Advice?

[ital916]

I'm not a hard rider on the road no matter what bike, but I noticed today that around any decent corners (which is where fun is, don't really care for top speeds) I never actually go over half or 3/4 throttle, and less than that is enough to be going way too fast than is safe once things start revving. Kind of makes things boring: Brake into corner-lean-roll on gas out of it, repeat... Compared to ringing the shit out of any 250 but still being barely above legal speeds on the same piece of road... Up and down through gears, knee skimming, braking as hard as 20 y/o calipers will, and still only doing 120 or so through twisties and having fun compared to riding "relaxed" and 200 comes up too fast despite riding like a nanna through corners. Beginning to think maybe I shifted to a big bike too soon, but I still enjoy the torque and modern gauges/chassis/susp. Any of you ever felt like that? Advice?

I cant wait to get off ma 250...I've been on it longer than I should have been and am finding that she doesnt brake hard enough, doesnt turn quick enough, the suspension doesnt work well enough and shes doesnt have enough go. You will feel cool for all of two mins on a 250 before you start missing you're big bike.

You've just gotten used to it now.

[McJim]

Tight twisties were more exhilirating on the 250 coz I pinned the throttle and revved the snot out of it :devil2:

Once the bikes put out more torque (bigger engines) you have to be careful how much you give it or the back wheel will spin.

It's nice to have the extra acceleration to get you out of trouble on a bigger bike though.

[centercore]

I just got my r6 after having a zxr250. The zxr felt more fun in the twisties because its so light and you have to play with the gears to get all the speed out of it. Kinda like when I went from my rg150 to my zxr250, the smoker needed me to work it like mad to get it going quick, and if I didn't I'd be under the powerband and not going anywhere soon.

The zxr had no dramas with the rear wheel spinning up or the front trying to lift no matter what you did. Guess it was more fun with less risk.

[The Pastor]

I used to have a jap 1000cc bike on my restricted, now on my full ive got a jap 250cc.

Its not what you ride its how you ride.

[steve_t]

Really?!! I'm hanging out to get my full to get a ZX6R or R6 and now you guys are saying I could possibly regret doing so and want my 250R again?!! Damn you guys for confusing me :girlfight:

[The Pastor]

Really?!! I'm hanging out to get my full to get a ZX6R or R6 and now you guys are saying I could possibly regret doing so and want my 250R again?!! Damn you guys for confusing me :girlfight:
ride what you wanna ride and sod the rules.

[howdamnhard]

Tight twisties were more exhilirating on the 250 coz I pinned the throttle and revved the snot out of it :devil2:

Once the bikes put out more torque (bigger engines) you have to be careful how much you give it or the back wheel will spin.

It's nice to have the extra acceleration to get you out of trouble on a bigger bike though.

What he said. :2thumbsup

[howdamnhard]

I just got my r6 after having a zxr250.

Cool must go out for a ride sometime so that I can get a look at it.

[CookMySock]

My vtwin 650 is ten times more interesting than the 250 vtwins. No, I don't go faster on the 650, but I get there lot more quickly, vibration and noise levels are higher, much greater care is needed at lower speeds, bar forces are higher, and just in general it has a forceful presence about it. The 650 is more planted in corners rather than the jittery 250.

It's not about speed. It's about the presence of the machine, the extra skills and experience required to handle it.

Steve

[Hahn]

Really?!! I'm hanging out to get my full to get a ZX6R or R6 and now you guys are saying I could possibly regret doing so and want my 250R again?!! Damn you guys for confusing me :girlfight:

Don't listen to them Steve!....

[Sidewinder]

more power the better

[mynameis]

Get a TL mate that will solve all ya problem.

[Maki]

I'm not a hard rider on the road no matter what bike, but I noticed today that around any decent corners (which is where fun is, don't really care for top speeds) I never actually go over half or 3/4 throttle, and less than that is enough to be going way too fast than is safe once things start revving. Kind of makes things boring: Brake into corner-lean-roll on gas out of it, repeat... Compared to ringing the shit out of any 250 but still being barely above legal speeds on the same piece of road... Up and down through gears, knee skimming, braking as hard as 20 y/o calipers will, and still only doing 120 or so through twisties and having fun compared to riding "relaxed" and 200 comes up too fast despite riding like a nanna through corners. Beginning to think maybe I shifted to a big bike too soon, but I still enjoy the torque and modern gauges/chassis/susp. Any of you ever felt like that? Advice?

Yes, I feel exactly like that. Giving the R6 full throttle at high revs through a tight corner is asking for major carnage while doing so on a 250 is perfectly safe.
There is a lot of fun to be had riding a 600. It is just a different to the kind of fun you have on a 250. If you are bored, try concentrating on the perfect line, timing, incremental speed increase, etc. While you can go through the corners full throttle in a 250 there is a lot more depth to what can be done on a 600....

[R6_kid]

Torque is king. My TRX850 almost feels like an old 250 in terms of handling, but with uprated brakes and 85nm of torque. I used to have fun on my old '89 ZXR250 but I spent so much time thrashing the shit out of it that it was going to become a money hole if I held onto it - that's the problem with 250's.

Yes, they do the 'same' speed through corners, they handle well for what they are (ZXR/CBR/FZR), but you are constantly wringing the shit out of them. They only make useable power from 12,000rpm to redline, and peak power is at 16,000rpm+. Doing this every weekend for a few hours at a time is just asking for trouble on a 20yo motor, parts are rarely available, and when they are they are prohibitively expensive.

The thing with a 400/600/750/1000+ is that you can do the same speed without raping the motor, you generally get good handling and brakes relative to the power on tap, and if you ride with a bit of sensibility then you can stay out of trouble and have a great time while doing it. A 1000cc motor makes as much power at 2/3 peak rpm as a 600cc does screaming it's tits off, same applies 600cc-400cc and 400cc-250cc.

[Morcs]

A 250 pinned through corners still feels like walking speed.

A good rider will get so much more out of a larger capacity bike.

[Argyle]

A 600 is probably better on NZ roads then a 250cc.

You should watch your self's from glorifying a 250cc, soon the government decide 250cc is well enough and everything else will be banned from the roads and then it's all over!

[centaurus]

I have very recently upgraded from 250 to 600 and I've been thinking about this subject quite a lot lately.

I've had so many people telling me how nice are the 250's: light, flickable, more fun at lower speed, etc... and never understood it (all of them were experienced riders). The problem is the only people that can appreciate the lightness of a 250 are the ones that have ridden (enough time) a bigger/heavier/more powerfull bike. Only by comparison, the 250 feels light and flickable. If all you've ever riddein is a 250, no matter how good you get at it you will never feel it's a "toy".

Another thing to consider is the type of 250 available nowadays. It's one thing to have a gsx250 or another old school 4cyl "sports bike" (not to mention the brilliantly vicious 2 strokes like the NSRs or RGVs) that have been designed as sport bikes, and a totally different thing to have a "half-ass" bike like a GPX for example which is neither a sports bike as bike design or body position nor it is a small light flickable dual sport.

Don't get me wrong, the gpx was a brilliant bike to learn on - very forgiving and decent power for a 250 but it never felt right and it never felt like a sports bike. It always felt like a compromise between two worlds that got the worst of both. I thoroughtly enjoyed riding it but always felt like it was just an intermediary step in the learning process and not a bike with it's own merits.

You don't usualy have this problem on bigger bikes - they are built for a purpose and they (usually) do it well. My new ZX6R is a sports bike and really feels like a sports bike. Yes, it is less exhilarating at the same speeds than the 250 but it always feels right riding it.

[Maki]

I've had so many people telling me how nice are the 250's: light, flickable, more fun at lower speed, etc... and never understood it (all of them were experienced riders). The problem is the only people that can appreciate the lightness of a 250 are the ones that have ridden (enough time) a bigger/heavier/more powerfull bike. Only by comparison, the 250 feels light and flickable. If all you've ever riddein is a 250, no matter how good you get at it you will never feel it's a "toy".

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=100818

"Handling. Once cornering the 600 feels more stable, planted and it feels like it could corner faster. Turn in and transition between corners is easier and faster on a 250 than a 600. The 600 has a lot more engine braking so you have to watch your downshifts, or the rear will get very twitchy. Same goes for accelarating out of corners, the more powerful bike may bite you if the surface is not perfect. So, ultimate cornering speed may be faster on a 600 but the 250 is nimbler and more forgiving."

[Paddi Irishman]

hard to beat the small bikes for fun on the twisties..
A 250 or 400 riden well on the twisties will put most bigger bikes to shame..

[Gubb]

It's not about speed. It's about the presence of the machine, the extra skills and experience required to handle it.

Didn't you crash not all that long ago?

[centaurus]

The 600 has a lot more engine braking so you have to watch your downshifts, or the rear will get very twitchy. Same goes for accelarating out of corners, the more powerful bike may bite you if the surface is not perfect. So, ultimate cornering speed may be faster on a 600 but the 250 is nimbler and more forgiving."

I've heard this one so many times and it scared me shitless when jumping on the 600 for the first time, but I disagree - it's not always true. The gpx had a compresion ration of 14 to 1 or so. Most times just unwinding the throttle was enough to stop me - I used the brakes very rarely. The ZX6r being heavier and with less compression, releasing the throttle makes little difference. I remember shitting miself at the fist corner when I released the throttle expecting the bike to slow down considerably (like I was used on the GPX) and the bike kept going at almost the same speed for a while.

But I agree with your comments on the above mentioned thread. You nailed it spot on.

[imdying]

Basically, the bottom line is always the same... 2 strokes are where it's at for sports bikes, 4 strokes are, and always have been, wrong.

[R6_kid]

Hmmm... a 2-stroke, 270deg parallel twin 400cc sports bike would be A LOT of fun!

[Maki]

Hmmm... a 2-stroke, 270deg parallel twin 400cc sports bike would be A LOT of fun!

Yes, I would love one, especially if it looks something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5nYA8nNVfA

[R6_kid]

I'd just get an 06+ R6 rolling chassis and put the motor in that. There are pics somewhere of a guy who put an old RD500V into an R6. Looks awesome.

[onearmedbandit]

I get more satisfaction out of my 1000 than any 250 I've owned or ridden. Why? Because it challenges me. Yeah you can screw a 250 out in safety and get home and think you've done well, if that is what spins your wheels. Or you can push yourself that little bit harder and do the same on a larger bike, and feel satisfied when you find the extra speed.

[NordieBoy]

Get a TL mate that will solve all ya problem.

Oh yeah :D

[ckai]

Basically, the bottom line is always the same... 2 strokes are where it's at for sports bikes, 4 strokes are, and always have been, wrong.

WRONG!!! Nothing like the buzz of a triple between your legs!! Go the Singer. :)

The upgrade for me was pretty simple...only about 20kg's heavier, 5x more power, better brakes, more nimble through the corners, better tyres, etc, etc ... I'd be mad too go back.

But it's the torque that makes it so much better. Nothing like being lazy and pulling 6th gear out of "35km/h" corners and doing it better than the first bike :)

No regrets...ever.

[avgas]

I currently ride a 10hp 400 single. So a 250 sounds like i would have to step up again.
Mind due - even the internet seems slow to my old FZ1:whistle:

[imdying]

WRONG!!! Nothing like the buzz of a triple between your legs!!You can get a two stroke triple if that's what tickles your fancy... but you're still better off with a twin ;)

[ckai]

You can get a two stroke triple if that's what tickles your fancy... but you're still better off with a twin ;)

shit really??? Can you imagine the noise :pinch: hahah

[R6_kid]

shit really??? Can you imagine the noise :pinch: hahah

d7ya0TS3-2M

[RDjase]

I'm not a hard rider on the road no matter what bike, but I noticed today that around any decent corners (which is where fun is, don't really care for top speeds) I never actually go over half or 3/4 throttle, and less than that is enough to be going way too fast than is safe once things start revving. Kind of makes things boring: Brake into corner-lean-roll on gas out of it, repeat... Compared to ringing the shit out of any 250 but still being barely above legal speeds on the same piece of road... Up and down through gears, knee skimming, braking as hard as 20 y/o calipers will, and still only doing 120 or so through twisties and having fun compared to riding "relaxed" and 200 comes up too fast despite riding like a nanna through corners. Beginning to think maybe I shifted to a big bike too soon, but I still enjoy the torque and modern gauges/chassis/susp. Any of you ever felt like that? Advice?

I have more fun on my RD350 than on my ducati, the old 2stroke gives me great grin factor and you have to work the gearbox to keeps it humming. The duke does everything to easy , but i still like it if im feeling lazy. Bit if a waste of a duke when I ride my 29 year old Rd more lol

[vtec]

Best bikes I've had were the CBR250RR and the RGV250. I've spent time on Hayabusa's and CBR600RR's. The CBR250RR is just so damn nimble, and the power is just right for road use, the ultimate lane splitter. The RGV was a sweet ride when it was working which was rare.

The modern 600's with fuel injection etc some of those models will be nearly as nimble as the CBR250RR though. It's a matter of test riding a few to find a good one. Last time I rode sketchy's k4 (at the endurance race) with standard suspension, I loved the way it handled. There's good 600's and rubbish 600's and it's not always immediately apparent. I really didn't like my 03-04 CBR600RR's and I'm a big Honda fan, I think in 07 they really jumped leaps and bounds.

[wbks]

Basically, the bottom line is always the same... 2 strokes are where it's at for sports bikes, 4 strokes are, and always have been, wrong.So I suppose you would advocate trading in for this one, then...

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=246793896

[gatch]

Best bikes I've had were the CBR250RR and the RGV250.

But but you own a vfr ? No comprehende senor ?

I've ridden a few bikes, big and small, slow and fast, but think I'm on the right on for now. Enough power to lose your license in any zone, can hit 100k in first, and would PROBABLY out handle most 600s on the market. I dunno why you'd need more ?

[DMNTD]

I dunno why you'd need more ?

Torque IMO...far easier to ride on Kiwi roads when you have torque at your wrist.
Plus as a couple of others have already mentioned it's freaking FUN to have the extra hp too :scooter:

[gatch]

Torque IMO...far easier to ride on Kiwi roads when you have torque at your wrist.
Plus as a couple of others have already mentioned it's freaking FUN to have the extra hp too :scooter:

Need man, NEED.

If your bike is slower than the average car, than you need more hp/torque.

But yes, some extra ponies does increase the smile factor somewhat.

[ital916]

Would be nice to be able to chuck it into top gear and have all the power you need on tap. Rowing the gearbox constantly or sitting at the rev limiter for long tours aint fun.

[discotex]

hard to beat the small bikes for fun on the twisties..
A 250 or 400 riden well on the twisties will put most bigger bikes to shame..

Not at all. It's all the rider not the bike. A modern 600 supersport is the same weight as a 250 with three times the power, a bigger contact patch and infinitely better suspension and ground clearance.

A fast rider on a 250 can out-corner an average rider on a 600 but not the other way around.

[PrincessBandit]

Not at all. It's all the rider not the bike. A modern 600 supersport is the same weight as a 250 with three times the power, a bigger contact patch and infinitely better suspension and ground clearance.

A fast rider on a 250 can out-corner an average rider on a 600 but not the other way around.

Makes sense. I would push my gn (yeah, I know grunt machine [not!]) much harder than I'd ever try doing with the bandit. However a good rider on my bike would get great speed from it going through twisties etc. I like the light weight of the gn, but the heavier bandit definitely has advantages too. (Just not when I have to pick it up...)

[Pussy]

Makes sense. I would push my gn (yeah, I know grunt machine [not!]) much harder than I'd ever try doing with the bandit. However a good rider on my bike would get great speed from it going through twisties etc. I like the light weight of the gn, but the heavier bandit definitely has advantages too. (Just not when I have to pick it up...)
.... And your Bandit has a silky smooth engine, PB. Possibly the nicest fuelling bike I have ever ridden :niceone:

[Bend-it]

Yeah, a 600-ish twin sounds like the answer... narrow, torquey, no need the million hp... just fat torque from low down... Mmmm... :)

I know what you mean about the faster but slower bikes... between my 2 bikes, 650vtwin cagiva raptor, 70hp and my 1000cc zx10r with 185hp, I generally ride my cagiva faster just 'coz I'm more comfortable on it! :scooter:

But that's just 'coz I'm a nana... someone else could really enjoy the big kwaka... so buy it!!! :) link in my sig below

[wbks]

Of course a lot of people think they or someone they know is one of these good riders on a 250 just because they ring the nuts off of it. It's not hard to spend most of your time full throttle at 14,000rpm on one

[Dropped]

woops messed that up

[Dropped]

Of course a lot of people think they or someone they know is one of these good riders on a 250 just because they ring the nuts off of it. It's not hard to spend most of your time full throttle at 14,000rpm on one


2ts are fast but i seem to find my self at redline trying to get anywhere quick. they are just not the same as the r6. But i love the 2 stroke so much fun!