View Full Version : I stuffed up today, nearly a head on...
rocketman1
10th October 2009, 20:55
I consider my self a careful rider, I have said plenty about cornering on the site , and I consider it sensible. However, today on tight roads near the Tron, I nearly crashed head on.
I did give me fright, a hell of a fright.
I had Rounded about 50 tight corners on a quiet back road through Waingaro.
Beautiful road, weather great, the bike had just had an oil change, so just taking it for a run, running sweet as.
Getting to near the Raglan Road I had what I can only look back on as a lapse in concentration.
I entered a 45kmh corner far too fast, in too higher gear, too upright, I thought I've done it now.!!!
I leant the bike over, tried to scrub off some speed with my back brake and little bit of front, I realised I was heading over the white line when a car appeared come round the corner, just in my projected line of travel, I must admit I panicked , tried to lean over more, but realised i was still going to hit the car. F--K was all I thought. I realised I was over to far to brake heavily I for some reason tried to slow by getting the bike more vertical, and braking harder, this was probably the wrong thing to do, basically I wanted lessen the impact and survive, I did not want to brake hard and slide under the car.
how this all happened in about 2 seconds I dont know, but time slowed down and I was very aware of everything happening like in slow motion.
The driver of the cage quickly moved over thinking I would hit him, but for the life me I dont know how I missed him. I had actually not crossed the centre line like I thought I was going to.
But for all purposes I thought for that second I was gonna, another statistic.
I have taken thousands of left hand corners, no problems, fast & slow.
I just dont know what happened here, but it gave a good wake up call.
I guess one momentary lapse in concentration is what caused it.
I think the big issue for me was that I was in too higher gear, for the corner there was no engine braking, I just didnt feel right.
For the next few corners I slapped my helmet, told "myself off" for being asleep , and told myself ...learn from that you idiot... and boy will I ever.
Just thought I would share with you what some (poor souls) riders, never have the good luck to write about..
sAsLEX
10th October 2009, 21:04
I think the big issue for me was that I was in too higher gear, for the corner there was no engine braking, I just didnt feel right.
I dislike that feeling as well.
One thing to note, is that even though you "think" you can't make the corner the bike probably can.
steve_t
10th October 2009, 21:09
Glad you're OK. Those momentary lapses in concentration suck. Ride safely mate
aahsv
10th October 2009, 21:12
Glad to hear you're alive and are dissecting this one carefully...what are the chances of you having that momentary lapse in judgement on a back road corner and a car being in that same spot to make contact...someone's looking after you :rolleyes:
CookMySock
10th October 2009, 21:16
I entered a 45kmh corner far too fast, in too higher gear, too upright, I thought I've done it now.!!!
I leant the bike over, tried to scrub off some speed with my back brake and little bit of front, I realised I was heading over the white line when a car appeared come round the corner, just in my projected line of travel, I must admit I panicked , tried to lean over more, but realised i was still going to hit the car. F--K was all I thought. I realised I was over to far to brake heavily I for some reason tried to slow by getting the bike more vertical, and braking harder, this was probably the wrong thing to do, basically I wanted lessen the impact and survive, I did not want to brake hard and slide under the car.
how this all happened in about 2 seconds I dont know, but time slowed down and I was very aware of everything happening like in slow motion.
The driver of the cage quickly moved over thinking I would hit him, but for the life me I dont know how I missed him. I had actually not crossed the centre line like I thought I was going to.blahblahblahblahblahblahtalktalktalktalktalktal ktalktalktalktalk
talktalktalktalktalktalktalktalktalktalktalkblahbl ahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah
blahblah..
Dood, PUSH ON THE FUCKING BARS. DO IT OR DIE.
Dont fiddle with the gears or complain that you are not "set up right" - Just steer with the bars please. Do it fast! The bike will corner a lot harder than you think.
for some reason tried to slow by getting the bike more vertical, and braking harder, this was probably the wrong thing to dodoya think? :blink:
The real question is, What are you going to DO about it? You panicced and froze. You either have to train it out, or slow down. Either way, you need to decide quick, while the picture is clear in your mind. In a weeks' time you will have shrugged it off.
Steve
YellowDog
10th October 2009, 21:27
Yes I do know that feeling.
My method is straight back upright, heavy on the brakes, and then straight back down again.
Where I have been caught out before is when the bend dips down hill at a sharper gradient than expected. The too higher gear thing is a big worry. I rarely take a corner at less than 5000rpm, just for the purposes of throttle control.
When it happens, keep looking at where you want to go and not at the car about to squish you.
Not all live to tell such a tale after the event.
Well done.
Jantar
10th October 2009, 21:39
Well, I must admit I much prefer to read this sort of story than the "I binned it" type. You have learned a good lesson, and as a result you will almost certainly not make the same mistake again. Good riding in the future, you will be a survivor. :ride:
beyond
10th October 2009, 22:47
At least it's not another rider down thread. Good on you for sharing this experience, many wouldn't.
As you have found out, you cannot have even a momentary lapse in concentration, even for a split second. Must always keep our eye and mind fully on the ride at all times.
TuonoTom
10th October 2009, 22:59
At least it's not another rider down thread. Good on you for sharing this experience, many wouldn't.
As you have found out, you cannot have even a momentary lapse in concentration, even for a split second. Must always keep our eye and mind fully on the ride at all times.
Agree, but we're human and that means every now and again we slip up...
Dave-
10th October 2009, 23:33
I hear so many people talk about this slow motion effect, where they're aware of everything happening, but it's slow.
and there's all these medical theories that back it up.
but it's never happened to me, I dont get it, every time I've come close to death where this apparent "slow motion" effect seems to happen, it's never happened.
HOWEVER i do sometimes get like a feeling something's not right, and then sometimes it goes pear shaped, other times I'm able to dodge whatever it was because of that weird feeling.
this isn't limited to just motorcycles either, it's happened all my life....and I dont even believe in this shit!
crazyhorse
11th October 2009, 06:17
Important fact remains - you are fine :)
BiK3RChiK
11th October 2009, 06:41
I hear so many people talk about this slow motion effect, where they're aware of everything happening, but it's slow.
and there's all these medical theories that back it up.
but it's never happened to me, I dont get it, every time I've come close to death where this apparent "slow motion" effect seems to happen, it's never happened.
I've had the slow motion effect happen to me, except I was driving a big vehicle and a drunk driver came sliding sideways around the corner taking up most of the road. That happened in 1990 and I can tell you the details of the whole episode as if I was watching a DVD. It's very weird, but the whole scene slows right down and becomes kind of tunnel vision (including your reactions) and then for me, it sped up to real time in the last few seconds before the big bang...
I don't think you'll forget this one easily Rocketman. It'll replay over and over in your mind even years later, making it a lesson you can draw on in the future. At least, that has been my experience...
I'm glad you lived to learn from it. As you say, many don't.....
jrandom
11th October 2009, 07:26
I bet you haven't done many trackdays (if any).
www.motott.co.nz
Get into it, rocketman1. When luck runs out, track time saves lives. And you just used up your luck.
rocketman1
11th October 2009, 07:31
Yes I do know that feeling.
My method is straight back upright, heavy on the brakes, and then straight back down again.
Where I have been caught out before is when the bend dips down hill at a sharper gradient than expected. The too higher gear thing is a big worry. I rarely take a corner at less than 5000rpm, just for the purposes of throttle control.
When it happens, keep looking at where you want to go and not at the car about to squish you.
Not all live to tell such a tale after the event.
Well done.
Ive had a few these corners as well they just tend to push you wide very easily.
Yes I will not go into a corner in too higher gear, hey I should know this after years of riding, but if you think the corner is not as tight as it is...well enough said.
rocketman1
11th October 2009, 07:34
I've had the slow motion effect happen to me, except I was driving a big vehicle and a drunk driver came sliding sideways around the corner taking up most of the road. That happened in 1990 and I can tell you the details of the whole episode as if I was watching a DVD. It's very weird, but the whole scene slows right down and becomes kind of tunnel vision (including your reactions) and then for me, it sped up to real time in the last few seconds before the big bang...
I don't think you'll forget this one easily Rocketman. It'll replay over and over in your mind even years later, making it a lesson you can draw on in the future. At least, that has been my experience...
I'm glad you lived to learn from it. As you say, many don't.....
Hey I have gotten over it, but I did relive it in my minds several times last night.
Nasty
11th October 2009, 07:38
Hey I have gotten over it, but I did relive it in my minds several times last night.
I get that ... thing is to when on the road remember the lessons you learned ... glad you are ok :):)
jrandom
11th October 2009, 07:49
My method is straight back upright, heavy on the brakes, and then straight back down again.
Mm. While that approach is instinctive for most folk, it's amazing how hard most motorcycles can turn under brakes (with a warm front tyre).
But it takes a bit of practice to learn how to do that. However, it'll save your arse much betterer than braking in a straight line when you should be turning.
Trackdays trackdays trackdays!
rocketman1
11th October 2009, 07:49
blahblahblahblahblahblahtalktalktalktalktalktalkta lktalktalktalk
talktalktalktalktalktalktalktalktalktalktalkblahbl ahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah
blahblah..
Dood, PUSH ON THE FUCKING BARS. DO IT OR DIE.
Dont fiddle with the gears or complain that you are not "set up right" - Just steer with the bars please. Do it fast! The bike will corner a lot harder than you think.
doya think? :blink:
The real question is, What are you going to DO about it? You panicced and froze. You either have to train it out, or slow down. Either way, you need to decide quick, while the picture is clear in your mind. In a weeks' time you will have shrugged it off.
Steve
Steve, You sound like me telling someone else, I do know how to corner, I dont have much leather on the sides of my boots and skinny chicken strips.
I guess for a second I admit I did could only focus on the car, the fact remains when you think that you gonna impact, human nature tells you to lessen the impact with braking, and I dont think that will change.
Yes the countersteering is all good and that is the way I steer, but there is a point when countersteering / time / speed / impact all flash through your head , no time to countersteer, braking is about all you have, with an attempt at countersteering at the same time. hard to explain dude in words. I hope you never find yourself in that situation, But I agree with your comments.
Yes I got over it pretty quick, the rest of trip home was, nice, good lean angles and sweeping corners, just like a thousand before, except ONE.
oldrider
11th October 2009, 07:51
I bet you haven't done many trackdays (if any).
www.motott.co.nz
Get into it, rocketman1. When luck runs out, track time saves lives. And you just used up your luck.
Tracks and track days have their benefits, true :niceone: but.........
Funny thing about track days, they don't restrict you to half the track and they don't provide traffic coming the other way out of blind corners! :rolleyes:
Horses for courses, as they say!
jrandom
11th October 2009, 08:06
Funny thing about track days, they don't restrict you to half the track and they don't provide traffic coming the other way out of blind corners!
Funny how everyone who hasn't done trackdays says that.
Thing is, it's a non sequitur.
What trackdays teach you is the physics of controlling a motorcycle. Riding a bike is an acquired motor skill, like playing the piano.
Riding on the road is the equivalent of a concert-hall recital; if you fuck up, there are no second chances. Riding on the track is like practice time at home; you can take it slowly and repeat bits over and over until you can play them as quickly and as accurately as you need to.
F'rinstance, it's almost impossible to safely learn on the road how to turn and brake hard at the same time. On the track, you can do the same corner over and over again in a safe environment, pushing a little harder each time and feeling how the bike responds.
Then, in a one-off situation on the road like RM1 had here, you can pull out your acquired motor skills and what you've learned about your bike's handling, and get yourself out of danger without breaking a sweat.
erik
11th October 2009, 08:06
Well, I must admit I much prefer to read this sort of story than the "I binned it" type. You have learned a good lesson, and as a result you will almost certainly not make the same mistake again. Good riding in the future, you will be a survivor. :ride:
Same with me, I much prefer to read a post like this!
But I think even if you analyse the incident and learn from it, it is all too easy for the same thing to happen again. All it takes is, like the OP said, a momentary lapse in concentration at the wrong place.
I think trying to be aware of your mental state, alertness, concentration etc while riding, keeping your focus on the road and adjusting your speed to suit is about all you can do to avoid such lapses.
scumdog
11th October 2009, 08:20
Funny how everyone who hasn't done trackdays says that.
Thing is, it's a non sequitur.
What trackdays teach you is the physics of controlling a motorcycle. Riding a bike is an acquired motor skill, like playing the piano.
Riding on the road is the equivalent of a concert-hall recital; if you fuck up, there are no second chances. Riding on the track is like practice time at home; you can take it slowly and repeat bits over and over until you can play them as quickly and as accurately as you need to.
F'rinstance, it's almost impossible to safely learn on the road how to turn and brake hard at the same time. On the track, you can do the same corner over and over again in a safe environment, pushing a little harder each time and feeling how the bike responds.
Then, in a one-off situation on the road like RM1 had here, you can pull out your acquired motor skills and what you've learned about your bike's handling, and get yourself out of danger without breaking a sweat.
Hmm, I see your point but being one of those who've not done a track-day I'll say that it is one thing to learn skills on a track (going around a familiar lay-out and surface) and a different thing to run into an unexpected decreasing radius corner on an unfamiliar road with a vehicle approaching while you're trying to figure it all out....
Sorta why the AOS train under pressure using Simunition etc wearing/carrying the gear they will have with them on the day - and don't just stand at the range casually loading and taking repetitive aimed shots at a fixed target....
Not baggin' ya dude but putting in another perspective.
And yeah, I appreciate any practice has got to be good.
p.dath
11th October 2009, 09:24
Lets look at this experience in a different light.
I've just been reading a Keith Code book. In the begginning he says don't asses what you are doing wrong or beat yourself up because things didn't go how you thought they should have. Instead assess what you could have done better - so you do it better next time.
So well done on realising you could have completed this corner better, and taking the time to go over it in your head, and deciding on how you would handle it better next time.
ps. It's called a learning experience.
Ixion
11th October 2009, 10:41
First time it's happened ? Welcome to the club
It won't be the last , if you keep riding. No matter how expereinced everyone stuffs up sooner or later.
What counts is how you deal with it
Just a question though? If that car HADN'T been there, would you have been as alarmed? Or just carried on?
I see too many riders take a blase approach to crossing the centre line. Not saying you do, just pointing out that stuffing up a corner when there ISN'T oncoming is just as big a stuff up.
I have (many times) experienced that time dilation effect. It's an adrenaline survival thing. For me, anyway, accompanied by an icy calmness (which normally I am NOT).
(I'm not an advocate of trackdays BTW. Never heard of a track day where they had oncoming traffic).
MSTRS
11th October 2009, 11:29
I have (many times) experienced that time dilation effect. It's an adrenaline survival thing. For me, anyway, accompanied by an icy calmness (which normally I am NOT).
Yep. Adrenalin floods the body, giving (superhuman) strength to muscles, and speeding-up your cognitive processing and reaction times. Also known as the fight or flight response. A side effect is that everything around you seems to happen more slowly, but you haven't changed.
Opposite of what happens when stoned on dak...apparently :devil2:
Motu
11th October 2009, 17:24
Yeah,having a car right in your escape road really limits your options.Another option is the dirt bike method - push the bike down,the opposite of all the sportsbike theories.I did this a couple or more times today when I was running wide in a daydream.
vtec
12th October 2009, 12:21
Hmm, I see your point but being one of those who've not done a track-day I'll say that it is one thing to learn skills on a track (going around a familiar lay-out and surface) and a different thing to run into an unexpected decreasing radius corner on an unfamiliar road with a vehicle approaching while you're trying to figure it all out....
Sorta why the AOS train under pressure using Simunition etc wearing/carrying the gear they will have with them on the day - and don't just stand at the range casually loading and taking repetitive aimed shots at a fixed target....
Not baggin' ya dude but putting in another perspective.
And yeah, I appreciate any practice has got to be good.
You misunderstood JRandoms post. He was saying that track time gives you more confidence and knowledge of the limits of your bike so that the High Pressure situation that you refer to becomes only a medium to low pressure situation, if you learn how much braking you can apply in a corner, then you will find that on the road to get out of situations like this one you really only need a fraction of it. Too much braking stands the bike up(or lowsides it) and you go straight into the wrong side of the road, only practicing hard riding on a track can provide this kind of cohesion with ones motorcycle.
I often come into tightening corners that I don't always expect and my track experience has given me the ability to react really well to them, you can brush off speed amazingly quickly with the bike at full lean and applying suitable front braking, instantly changing your end trajectory as soon as you start applying the forces. To clarify, the instant you touch the brakes you change where you are going to end up, too much = bad, too little also = bad.
Further to this, I've changed my riding style significantly in the last year or two. If i'm going at a speed at all close to where I could get in trouble, I get my body over on the bike ready for the possibility of the corner tightening up, as i've found you can apply more brakes with the bike more upright and still be going round the corner well if you are using your body weight to move the COG over, further to this the more upright the tyre is in a corner the less skew effect the rubber has on the ground. If you are just cruising and getting this wrong, it's totally a failure in concentration.
george formby
12th October 2009, 14:06
I know exacary how you must feel. Now & again my attention wanders & I give myself a scare. Nowadays if I don't feel on the ball I don't ride. A lapse on a bike is always heart in mouth stuff, in a car it's more oh that was dum.
As long as I still have those inch perfect, swoop like a bird days I won't worry too much, just trust my instincts. Hope you have a good swoop next ride.
george formby
12th October 2009, 14:16
Further to this, I've changed my riding style significantly in the last year or two. If i'm going at a speed at all close to where I could get in trouble, I get my body over on the bike ready for the possibility of the corner tightening up, as i've found you can apply more brakes with the bike more upright and still be going round the corner well if you are using your body weight to move the COG over, further to this the more upright the tyre is in a corner the less skew effect the rubber has on the ground. If you are just cruising and getting this wrong, it's totally a failure in concentration.[/QUOTE
The bit above was posted by another rider, I made a balls of using the quote doo hickey....
Funny you should say that. I have started using my body weight more in recent years too, never been on a race track though & I don't ride a sports bike. A lot of roads round here have a lot of hazards on the surface & using them too, moving over on the seat & weighting the pegs properly gives me less lean for the same speed & a much more stable reaction from the bike when I have to touch the brakes or change my line mid corner. I ain't trying to emulate Rossi, just balance my bike. I only really move 1/2 a buttock width but it helps a lot.
george formby
12th October 2009, 14:18
I know exacary how you must feel. Now & again my attention wanders & I give myself a scare. Nowadays if I don't feel on the ball I don't ride. A lapse on a bike is always heart in mouth stuff, in a car it's more oh that was dum.
As long as I still have those inch perfect, swoop like a bird days I won't worry too much, just trust my instincts. Hope you have a good swoop next ride.
Okey Dokey
12th October 2009, 15:23
First, and foremost, I'm glad that you are okay and that there are no injured riders in this story!
Second, thanks for putting it up so we can all think about the situation and reflect on our own skill levels and reactions, etc.
Firefight
12th October 2009, 15:42
rep 4 honesty and sharing , glad ur ok dude
F/F
avgas
12th October 2009, 15:56
Its good that you got the wakeup call. And I notice a few here are slagging you off for it - do this, do that. Because clearly its very easy to tell someone to ride, teach them the errors of their ways through the internet. I mean we all type while riding at the same time don't we?
I have one simple set of questions - I will let you decided what I would have done in that situation.
Where were you looking?
Where were you going?
How did you know you had crossed the line?
What was past the car at that moment?
What was to the left of the car at that moment?
What told you it was too fast in that corner? the sign on the side of the road?
There is no point saying "I should've done this" what specifically do you think you did wrong? I can say now that your speed could have been the least of your problems.
jrandom
12th October 2009, 16:11
(I'm not an advocate of trackdays BTW. Never heard of a track day where they had oncoming traffic).
Do you actually fail to understand the "learn to control a machine in a safe environment, then use those skills in a dangerous environment" thing, or are you just trolling?
I will respond regardless, for the benefit of our many and various Gentle Readers.
Riding on a track does not result in an instant lobotomy and inability to understand what the possibility of oncoming traffic on the road means.
That argument, so commonly put forward by people who haven't been to any trackdays (recently) and are attempting to justify their abstinence, is entirely fallacious.
In fact, riding practice on the track results in a heightened awareness of the difference between the track and the road.
Oncoming vehicles on the road, not to mention the road surface, weather conditions, and other hazards, become variables that one can deal with using the additional brain power that one's newly ingrained motor skills leave free to devote to situational awareness.
Track time saves lives.
Ixion
12th October 2009, 16:32
Based on the behaviour I not infrequently observe by gixxer riders and similar, it doesn't work.
Almost all have attended track days. Yet they ride as if the road were a race track
(Not saying that there are not safe gixxer riders - merely that a lot aren't, and those that aren't are almost always track day enthusiasts).
A race track is a place where people race. By definition. The quaint euphemism "track day" is handy for fooling insurance companies : it should not fool us.
Riding is a conditioned behaviour. I have spent all my riding life conditioning myself not to ride at an unsafe speed (which, granted, may be more than the speed limit); to always ensure that there is plenty of "reserve" in every corner; ditto with braking, to brake early enough that I have braking in reserve if needed; to assume that around every corner is danger, and ensure I can stop in half the clear distance ahead; and so on. These are survival skills.
None of them are assisted by racing. Quite the reverse. The rider who heads home on the road after a "track day" has spent his day conditioning his behaviour to go as fast as he dare (and a bit faster still); to leave nothing in reserve (doesn't win races); to assume that every corner is clear, that there are no hazards (that's what flag marshals are for) ; to brake as late as possible , as hard as possible; to ignore such precepts as "able to stop ... etc". After conditioning himself thus, it is no wonder that he will carry that behaviour over to the road on his way home. And to his ride round the Coromandel next weekend (it's not called the CoroGP for nothing).
But, is he a safer rider as a result. I think not. Indeed , I am certain not.
Would I do a "track day". No. Firstly, I would certainly make a fool of myself, because I would be unable to "uncondition" myself, to abandon the principles of safe riding that I have acquired over the years. I would ride on the track as if I were on the public road, a manifest nonsense.
Secondly, I do not WANT to "uncondition" myself.
Thirdly, nor am I interested in learning how to ride faster. I learned long ago that I am not a fast rider, and do not want to be. The only thing I am good at is not crashing and hurting myself. I rather like being good at that. . Why would I attend a track day to learn skill that are directly contrary to that only thing I am good at?
marty
12th October 2009, 16:34
i got lucky too - know how you feel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEi9QBmgthM
jrandom
12th October 2009, 16:48
I ride slowly enough that my limited motorcycle control skills are not taxed, so I don't need to learn anything further.
If you say so. However, I prefer to separate the safety-conscious road riding mindset and the acquisition of bike-control skills in a safe environment.
One should not be (and is not, unless you make it so in your own mind) exclusive of the other.
The day may well come when your imperfect judgement makes 'slowly enough' not quite slow enough. And, in the absence of bike control skills that go beyond your daily road riding, you will then most likely come a cropper.
It may happen, it may not. But I would rather make the safe bet of assuming that my judgement may be imperfect and may require backing up with control skill.
I see people who've been to trackdays riding unsafely on the road, therefore going to trackdays makes you ride unsafely on the road.
Ixion. You do know what a syllogism is, don't you?
Don't try logical fallacies out on me, dude. C'mon!
For those who don't know what I'm on about, I'm pointing out that the fact that someone went to a trackday once and then was seen to ride unsafely on the road does not invalidate the concept of learning to control your motorcycle in a safe environment.
It just means that that particular guy was an idiot.
And, Gentle Reader, you are not an idiot. Are you?
The quaint euphemism "track day" is handy for fooling insurance companies : it should not fool us.
That is simply incorrect. Repeat that with a straight face and hand on heart after attending a MotoTT day, and I might grant you the right to say it.
However, you are wrong in that supposition, formed without any experience of what you speak of.
The environment at the track (and on the track) is enormously different between a race meet and one of the insurance-company-blessed trackdays.
Do you think the people from the insurance companies are not there at the trackdays, carefully scrutinising events and sniffing the vibes? Give them some credit. They know what they're doing when they offer cover.
Ixion
12th October 2009, 17:25
Your mangled quote cannot be justified. I have never implied that I (or anyone else) should not learn anything further. Indeed, I hope that I am constantly learning. What one is learning is the question. And for my riding , on ordinary New Zealand roads, learning better how to avoid that SUV coming toward me on my side of the road is considerably more useful than learning how my motorcycle handles at 250 kph down the back straight.
And I'm not going to learn anything about how to deal with that SUV on a race track. I think I said below that if they held track days that had some relevance to road riding, I'd certainly be a starter. Sheer speed , going as fast as possible , I do not think the best area to focus learning time on.
If I DO want to know how it handles at 200kph+ , I would prefer that the "how" relate to ordinary NZ roads, potholed, adverse cambered etc - not to an artificial super smooth surface that I will never encounter in my daily riding.
For those who don't know what I'm on about, I'm pointing out that the fact that someone went to a trackday once and then was seen to ride unsafely on the road does not invalidate the concept of learning to control your motorcycle in a safe environment.
one swallow does not a summer make. But when I see many many swallows, I'm going to reckon winter's over. And when I see that many many people who attend sessions which claimedly make for safer riding , riding in manifestly unsafe ways, I will assume that the said sessions are not very effective.
The environment at the track (and on the track) is enormously different between a race meet and one of the insurance-company-blessed trackdays
Which is not doubt, why the proponents of racers being required to sit an exam before getting a race licence (here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=109216)) suggest that track days should be a prerequisite for a race licence
" I actually propsed to Paul Pav a year or so ago that to get a ROAD/sealed track race licence that you should attend at least one track day --the likes of MotoTT BEFORE being allowed to race."
And
"I'd envisage there being at least 2 or 3 "endorsed" riders at most track-days who could follow a trackdayer who "wants to try out racing" around the track and sign their license to say they rode competently"
Seems pretty clear that the racers regard MotoTT as "racing lite" (I wonder what the 'TT' in the name signifies ? )
jrandom
12th October 2009, 20:23
... considerably more useful than learning how my motorcycle handles at 250 kph down the back straight... If I DO want to know how it handles at 200kph+...
The entire infield of, say, Taupo track, is generally ridden at speeds that would be legal on the open road.
The back straight doesn't teach you much other than how to keep your head down over the tank.
Which is why, f'rinstance, MotoTT is now running its Taupo trackdays with a chicane added to the middle of the back straight.
And I'm not going to learn anything about how to deal with that SUV on a race track.
Quite untrue. You're going to learn how to brake and turn your motorcycle faster than you thought possible. When the SUV hoves into view, you'll have no time for anything but instinct.
And if your motorcycle control skills aren't up to taking the escape option, you're fucked.
But when I see many many swallows, I'm going to reckon winter's over.
Once again; correlation does not make for causation.
You see many fools on motorcycles not riding to the conditions; were it not for trackdays, there could just as easily be many more dead fools.
The benefits for people who aren't fools should be obvious.
people who attend sessions which claimedly make for safer riding...
Safer is as safer does. Riding on the track teaches you to control your motorcycle. What you do with that is up to you.
" [I]I actually propsed to Paul Pav a year or so ago that to get a ROAD/sealed track race licence that you should attend at least one track day --the likes of MotoTT BEFORE being allowed to race."
It's a pity that the same isn't a requirement for a road licence.
Of course race organisers prefer to have racers who have done some motorcycle control training. The fact that that's a good idea in a race situation is a truism.
The fact that it's a good idea in an open-road situation should be a truism, too.
(I wonder what the 'TT' in the name signifies ? )
It stands for 'track time', as a matter of fact.
rocketman1
12th October 2009, 21:05
Yeah,having a car right in your escape road really limits your options.Another option is the dirt bike method - push the bike down,the opposite of all the sportsbike theories.I did this a couple or more times today when I was running wide in a daydream.
Mate I did a bit of what you say, I learnt this from my motorcrossing days
when trying to stay on a narrow track through the bush. No sweeping bends there you come across corners too fast quickly and have to push the bike down.
I felt my self doing this to miss that car, oddly I have never done it on my road bike before.
Maybe its what saved my bacon, who knows.
I wasnt gonna mention it as I couldnt bother with the detail, but since you mention it...
For those that dont know what I'm on about, its moving to the opposite side of the bike you would normally, ie left hand bend , you move your weight to the right of the bike a bit , push down on the bars as though you are countersteering but instead of hanging off the bike, you push it into a greater lean angle by weighting the opposite side, hard to explain , but it does help, when you have no other option, and all the conventional methods of correct cornering have gone out the window.
I found my self doing it about 3 times in about a second if that makes sense.
You see moto cross riders doing it more than track racers, watch them on tv when they have almost run out of track, but not quite.
Not something I would mention in the "book of good riding practices" but it does work all the same. Maybe a life saver,
Yes You raised a good point, glad you mentioned it.
Ixion
12th October 2009, 21:07
Quite untrue. You're going to learn how to brake and turn your motorcycle faster than you thought possible. When the SUV hoves into view, you'll have no time for anything but instinct.
And if your motorcycle control skills aren't up to taking the escape option, you're fucked.
Except that, unfortunately, I have encountered said SUV on a steep downhill right hander , with two nasty potholes ,a patch of gravel and a cliff on one side. None of my track day stuff included any of the above . In such a situation I am very certain that instincts fostered on a race track will lead to disaster.
Safer is as safer does. Riding on the track teaches you to control your motorcycle. What you do with that is up to you.
It teaches you to control your motorcycle in the totally unnatural context of a racetrack. I am unconvinced that it teaches anything worthwhile in the totally different context of the public road.
It stands for 'track time', as a matter of fact.
Indeed? Actually if it really stood for, and indicated 'Tourist Trophy', I would probably be quite keen since the TT was run (IoM still is) over public roads. Real world roads. A track day on THAT track would certainly be worth doing .
Riding on the track is like practice time at home; you can take it slowly and repeat bits over and over until you can play them as quickly and as accurately as you need to
I don't agree with this either.
If I find a corner, or sequence of corners, on the open road, that I feel I am not quite comfortable about, I can ride through them , (safely) do a U turn and go back, and repeat as often as I wish. I have sometimes done this a dozen times or more.
I can't do that on a race track, after the corner I must continue right around the track to get back to repeat the corner. And I am quite certain that my sedentary progress at 120kph or so would quickly (and properly) have me blackflagged as a danger to the other participants (can't quite call them competitors I suppose), belting along at 300kph. So I don't think a race track is even very useful for practicing the racing type corners, let alone the far more challenging ones found in the real world.
Motu
12th October 2009, 21:26
Mate I did a bit of what you say, I learnt this from my motorcrossing days
Great,you need to put all those skills to work in your road riding.Your off road skills will be much more use to you on SH22 than track days....it's certainly not a race track.
jrandom
12th October 2009, 21:33
It teaches you to control your motorcycle in the totally unnatural context of a racetrack. I am unconvinced that it teaches anything worthwhile in the totally different context of the public road.
Once again, I must point out that you're writing about something you haven't actually experienced. You make many assumptions about what it's like to ride on a track, and how it relates to motorcycling on the road, without having actually done it.
Perhaps you should give it a go? Just to get some moral authority for your pronouncements, like.
G'wan, g'wan, g'wan, g'wan.
I am quite certain that my sedentary progress at 120kph or so would quickly (and properly) have me blackflagged as a danger to the other participants
Don't be silly. Surely you're aware that at (f'rinstance) MotoTT days, riders go out in four different groups, organised by experience level, the speed they wish to travel at, and the type of bike they're riding.
Progressing at 120kph, in fact, would put you right out of the slowest group. Your blistering pace would make the middle-aged ladies on their 250cc cruisers uncomfortable, and you would be moved to a different group with riders of your own level.
Because trackdays are all about providing a safe environment, and significant speed differentials are unsafe.
You would, of course, be free to watch the 'belting along at 300kph' types practice their riding during their session, from behind the safety of the pit lane wall...
Trackdays are not race meets.
I'm going to start nagging you to come along to one, now.
:sunny:
Headbanger
13th October 2009, 08:42
Mate I did a bit of what you say, I learnt this from my motorcrossing days
when trying to stay on a narrow track through the bush. No sweeping bends there you come across corners too fast quickly and have to push the bike down.
I felt my self doing this to miss that car, oddly I have never done it on my road bike before.
Maybe its what saved my bacon, who knows.
.
Funny enough, I ran wide on a corner on my HD a few weeks back, entering the corner too fast, too high a gear and positioned too close to the shoulder (and not paying enough attention) as soon as the alarm bells went off it was too late, My tightest line put me into the gravel.
Now, The funky shit is, once I went off the road, into the dirt, gravel, grass, rocks, I got that damn bike semi-under control and held my line all the way around the corner, A 300KG out of control HD.Sure I dropped her right at the end but she was a stunning bit of saving my arse if I do say so.
I put it down to 20 years of dirt bikes,Though I'm a little concerned that I can hold a line better on the dirt then on a nice bit of road....
MSTRS
13th October 2009, 08:45
See? Should have done a trackday. :innocent:
Headbanger
13th October 2009, 08:51
If I done a trackday I wouldn't push my bike any harder then I already do, I know what it and I are capable of, Including how hard into a corner I can brake. Don't need to be on a track,any corner will do.
Ixion
13th October 2009, 09:00
I done a bit of unscheduled cross country on bikes definitely not intended for it.
Seems to work better than one would expect so long as you keep calm and keep the power on. I suspect folk who are not used to off road panic when they leave the seal and try to stop.
Insanity_rules
13th October 2009, 09:27
Ah the mighty clench of the sphincter, a wail of brakes and a hearty "I fucked up". Yeah I've been there too.
vtec
13th October 2009, 12:10
You read a lot about HD riders crashing. Like that guy the other day was face down in a puddle for 14hours with his bike pinning him so he could only get the corner of his mouth out of the water to breathe. For a group of cruisers it's surprising how many crashes they have.
I personally have an obsession with watching motorcycle crashes on youtube to help "keep it real" and also just a strange fascination. However it appears that crashes involving cruisers are generally put in the basket of reacting badly to a misjudged corner. If you cruise all the time and don't test the capabilities of your machine you WILL screw up. Now you don't need to practice these skills on the track, you can do it on the road, however, you can learn it all so much faster at the track, and in a much safer environment.
I used to go to a nearby carpark to practice finding the cornering traction with throttle on limit on my CBR250RR. However other people were learning to drive their cars in the same area, and it just wasn't appropriate. Also testing braking traction limits on the road is doable but you've got to make sure there's nobody behind you. On the track, everybody is very well aware that if you are behind someone they are going to stomp the brakes before going into the corners.
Headbanger
13th October 2009, 13:27
You read a lot about HD riders crashing.
Pfffft. No you don't.
rocketman1
13th October 2009, 18:55
i got lucky too - know how you feel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEi9QBmgthM
Mate you were miles over the white line, was that on purpose or a mistake, if a mistake, consider yourself lucky to be on the planet.
I looked like a mistake considering you were going into another right hander straight after...Wow
discotex
13th October 2009, 19:45
Mate you were miles over the white line, was that on purpose or a mistake, if a mistake, consider yourself lucky to be on the planet.
I looked like a mistake considering you were going into another right hander straight after...Wow
He was avoiding the dead possum in his line.
Looking at the vid marty seems to have apexed quite early which meant standing it up was his main option. Late apexing could have helped him avoided the organic ice without running into the oncomming lane.
http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3555
But yeah we've all fucked a corner up at some stage.
Ender EnZed
13th October 2009, 20:25
If I done a trackday I wouldn't push my bike any harder then I already do
If only this were true of everyone.
Story. It's about cages. Sorry. But it does relate, a little bit loosely, to the trackday thing.
I did a "Holden Advanced Driver Training" course at Manfield today. It wasn't a trackday by any means but it was a day on a track. There were 18 people taking the course, most put through by their companies I think. One person was drivnig a blue ute (this becomes relevant). There was plenty of driving cars much closer to the limit than one generally would on any public road. It did occur to me when I was leaving at the end that the whole thing, whilst giving people additional skills, was also giving them additional confidence. Whether or not it was needed.
It probably made 17 better drivers. Just North of Levin, maybe 35 minutes from Manfield there was a Police car wit lights going stopped on a straight road. In the ditch was one blue ute, unmistakably the same one that had just spent a day worth $400 on a race track with professional driving instructors.:buggerd:
SlowHand
13th October 2009, 21:13
Done'd a track day or 2. or 3,4,5, etc
I don't believe that it helps an experience rider to better their skills to the point of saving their life or what not. Helps with learning a new skill or getting used to a new bike perhaps, but not how to react to an OSHITE situation.
Having had a couple years off, I'd take myself to a trackday to refresh it all, but it won't be to help me deal with everyday riding on the roads.
As the quote goes, if you want to be good at push ups, do push ups.
dipshit
14th October 2009, 15:52
He was avoiding the dead possum in his line.
Which was sitting in the centre of the road on the white line.
That was the third time the rider had crossed the centre line in only 15 seconds!
If the rider wasn't in such a bad habit of crossing the centre line... then a dead possum sitting in the centre of the road on the white line wouldn't have posed such a problem that required using the other side of the road to avoid.
Ypawa
14th October 2009, 20:21
Shit I must be reading the wrong papers!:wacko:
mouldy
15th October 2009, 09:17
Mr Random speaks the truth . Track days make you a safer rider purely because you will naturally go faster on the track BECAUSE all you are thinking about is motorcycle control not traffic , cops or any of the other distractions you have on public roads so you lean over more then you would on the road so that when you are on the road you have the faith in your ride to lean over further then normal if you have to . Also thats why I'm faster round right hand corners .
Motu
15th October 2009, 16:17
Crap - the OP got himself out of this situation by using his off road skills learned in MX.Off road riding will improve your skills more than a track day.
Ixion
15th October 2009, 16:18
Pretty much. The way those damn trees jump out in front of y' is a lot more of a challenge than anything on a racetrack.
Motu
15th October 2009, 16:36
And shit is everywhere.....who will notice a bit extra?
rocketman1
16th October 2009, 18:14
Crap - the OP got himself out of this situation by using his off road skills learned in MX.Off road riding will improve your skills more than a track day.
Probably why I ride my 1000cc sportsbike on heavily metalled roads at 50-60km/hr +, while others crawl at 10-15 km hr.
Once you ride dirt, you get used to it on any bike
elle-f
17th October 2009, 05:54
I am just pleased that FUCK wasn't your last word! Glad to hear you are ok - but do remember that feeling because it will keep you safe in future :)
Cynos
19th October 2009, 16:53
Where I have been caught out before is when the bend dips down hill at a sharper gradient than expected.
Yeah, I had a harsh lesson once on a corner like that in the Hundalees south of Kaikoura. Scared the bajesus out of me.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.