Warning: gravel, turkeys & cyclists!

[beyond]

It's that time of the year again. The cyclists are all out in force doing what they do best: two abreast on blind corners, hogging the road and forcing motorists to swerve to avoid them so they end up on your side of the road making you take evasive action so you don't end up as a mascot on their bonnets.

Then we have the turkeys: all over the side of the road waiting for you to come along so they can fly up in front of you. If you're quick you might get a Christmas roast.

Then of course, we have to have the mandatory lets fix up the roads right at the beginning of prime motorcyling weather. Gravel patches on the best apex lines, most of the signs gone because it's safe for four wheel vehicles. Forget about the motorcyclists... but at least you can practice drifting through corners with your arms and legs out.

Take care out there folks :)

[kevfromcoro]

dam clyclists
they should be banned...

[The Pastor]

<img src='http://img.skitch.com/20090310-fue4arsbcqnqj5q9327sc2gd46.jpg'>

[SMOKEU]

Where are all these turkeys at?

[Katman]

It's that time of the year again......



.......when retarded motorcyclists treat public roads as though they're racetracks?

[beyond]

Where are all these turkeys at?

This time of the year nearly anywhere. But if you're keen, out Waerenga way, Orere point road, highway 22, all the good motorcycling roads.

[<G>]

Turkeys dressed in day-glo lycra being nuisances. Don't fancy one of them for a Sunday roast though.

[beyond]

When retard motorcyclists treat public roads as though they're racetracks?



I thought you did that all year round.

Piss off mate! Nothing wrong with getting on here and giving other riders the heads up so they know what to expect over the next few months.

You seem to know all about treating the roads like a racetrack.... you think you have a monopoly? As for me, I treat them as roads to be enjoyed at what I consider to be safe... nuff said... go home!

[Katman]

Piss off mate!

I ain't ya mate.

[bogan]

Where are all these turkeys at?

see post 5, he's a bit of a turkey!

[retro asian]

I crossed the centre line today to save the lives of a mother duck and large pack of ducklings crossing the road...


Peking Duck :drool:

[Swoop]

It's that time of the year again. The cyclists are all out in force doing what they do best:

Then we have the turkeys: all over the side of the road waiting for you to come along so they can fly up in front of you. If you're quick you might get a Christmas roast.
Slightly peeved that I missed a downhill head-shot with sub's, this morning.:nono:

As for the psyclists. I am starting a psych paper using a workmate. He is of the lycra brigade and has come out with a few gems of information. When in a pack of psychlists they ONLY concentrate on the wheel in front of them...
Oh, for a cliff face along Tamaki Dr at the end of the road...

[Ixion]

It's that time of the year again. The cyclists are all out in force doing what they do best:

What, sodomising each other ?

[Hiflyer]

Fucking cyclists, either ride single file or get a motorised one, simple as that.

[Mom]

I crossed the centre line today to save the lives of a mother duck and large pack of ducklings crossing the road...

Dont be scared of duckings under tyres mate, they make a small "pop" sound is all :devil2:

[Voltaire]

I went past the cyclists around Orere Pt as well, so what....
and I managed the gravel sections......
What did annoy me was three sports bikes that came around the corner so fast as to cross the centre line.....( and they didn't wave...)
I never saw the turkeys.....or did I?

.....oh and I own a Subaru....hardly dirve it as its auto and suck gas.:rolleyes:

[varminter]

If you own a Subaru AND a bike it lets you off the hook:msn-wink:

[Motu]

I thought the cyclists were well behaved today,they could hear me coming and went single file pretty quick - proof that loud bikes save lives....even if they are only cyclists.The road works were good fun - I passed a Harley on one of those patches and got a bit crossed up as I went by.Same going up the Kawakawa hill,I passed a car going up and got a bit sideways and wheelspin....good things those road works,we need more.A couple of cars were on the wrong side of the road - but um....so was I a lot of the time too.I make sure no one is on the side side as me coming the other way,just to make these maneuvers are safe.I was the guy who didn't wave to you.

[sAsLEX]

I like it how two cyclists we came across were single file, but riding in the middle of the fuckin lane down some tight twistie, so I passed them cut in front and rode on the left of the fog strip to show them at their pace it is rather easy.

[bogan]

though i am sometimes refered to as thatpushbikeguy so have a bit of perspective from the cyclist side. I can never understand thier urge to ride side by side, no other road users do it. A large percentage of cyclists out there are just retarded, coming back from wellington today one of them was riding the wrong way down one of the stripy white bits (bay for turning right i forget the name) cars going past on both sides of him, evidently he was crossing the road and seems to have decided to do it by halves.

Would it be wrong to use a stebel to educate those who stray too far from the left side?

[Katman]

A large percentage of cyclists out there are just retarded,

I'm lost for words.

[bogan]

I'm lost for words.

shit, that must be a first :niceone:

[Katman]

shit, that must be a first :niceone:

Don't worry - it won't last.

:msn-wink:

[PrincessBandit]

Where are all these turkeys at?

I saw a pheasant strutting along the side of the road today as I rode very safely past it.

[Voltaire]

though i am sometimes refered to as thatpushbikeguy so have a bit of perspective from the cyclist side. I can never understand thier urge to ride side by side, no other road users do it. A large percentage of cyclists out there are just retarded, coming back from wellington today one of them was riding the wrong way down one of the stripy white bits (bay for turning right i forget the name) cars going past on both sides of him, evidently he was crossing the road and seems to have decided to do it by halves.

Would it be wrong to use a stebel to educate those who stray too far from the left side?

I think they ride side by side so they can talk... long before motorised transport was invented people used to walk everywhere often side by side....
As well as being a Subaru driver ...I also have a pushbike.
I have two kids and when we were in Europe we cycled a lot, as its geared up for it. I don't bother much here as its to dangerous with self rightous motorists....bikers, truckies, cars...whatever.....
Maybe instead of demerit points they should make people ride a bicycle and see how the most vunerable road users feel.....might give them more of an insight to road safety.

[carver]

bin season

[bogan]

I think they ride side by side so they can talk... long before motorised transport was invented people used to walk everywhere often side by side....
As well as being a Subaru driver ...I also have a pushbike.
I have two kids and when we were in Europe we cycled a lot, as its geared up for it. I don't bother much here as its to dangerous with self rightous motorists....bikers, truckies, cars...whatever.....
Maybe instead of demerit points they should make people ride a bicycle and see how the most vunerable road users feel.....might give them more of an insight to road safety.

Hmm, yeh that cud work, maybe they also travel side by side to avoid staring at their mates lycra clad arse while panting heavily, never a good look that.
A system which requires road users traveling at 30kmhr, to share space with those going 100kmhr is alway gonna be a bit difficult, (some) cyclist being the most vulnerable should make more of an effort to ride responsibly and defensively, just as we bikers must ride defensively to avoid being squashed by cagers.

[Swoop]

bin season
Quite correct. We are just entering the season...

[marty]

As for me, I treat them as roads to be enjoyed at what I consider to be safe..

a bit like a cyclist does then....

[Pedrostt500]

Ah cyclists hunting season is on us again, was wondering what that funny noise was comming from under the back of the work truck, now i know I dont have to worry about it.

[carver]

Quite correct. We are just entering the season...

the reason for all the resealiing is the temperature and lack of rain....
it aint too bad, i had the t'bird on a whole lot of road works today

[Thani-B]

Quite correct. We are just entering the season...

Looks like I started it on Friday.

[Mom]

bin season


Quite correct. We are just entering the season...

Most bins wins dont forget ;)

[Insanity_rules]

Most bins wins dont forget ;)

And spectators dig scars!

[Mom]

And spectators dig scars!

No, chicks dig scars Mr Silly :sunny:

[Insanity_rules]

No, chicks dig scars Mr Silly :sunny:

I know, I was trying to appeal to a wider audience. :msn-wink: I got a beauty on my lower back from trying to power slide without a bike (correction: it was sliding along behind me). FYI Mr Silly is what they call me at work after I decided to wear my shirt backwards to see how long it would take for someone to notice.... 2 hours and 5 minutes if your interested.

[mnkyboy]

I saw a pheasant

Reminds me of a joke about a pheasant plucker....I dunno:Pokey: I'm sure there's a cream for it

Have to say the road out to kaiaua was Okish today. Bits and pieces of nasty on the road but fun none the less.

[jrandom]

Dang cyclists. Why don't they just get offa beyond's lawn already?

[kiwifruit]

Ban the lycra clad fags.

[Swoop]

the reason for all the resealiing is the temperature and lack of rain...

I was actually referring to the motorcyclist "death season".

[modboy]

I can never understand thier urge to ride side by side, no other road users do it. A large percentage of cyclists out there are just retarded

The normal road rules don't apply to cyclists.

:msn-wink:

[_Shrek_]

I think they ride side by side so they can talk... long before motorised transport was invented people used to walk everywhere often side by side....
As well as being a Subaru driver ...I also have a pushbike.
I have two kids and when we were in Europe we cycled a lot, as its geared up for it. I don't bother much here as its to dangerous with self rightous motorists....bikers, truckies, cars...whatever.....
Maybe instead of demerit points they should make people ride a bicycle and see how the most vunerable road users feel.....might give them more of an insight to road safety.

:angry2: you think it's dangerous for the cyclist's I was transporting a large loader home from Wanaka last week came around 75k corner in a 100k zone to fined two cyclist's taking up the left hand lane when there was a wide strip enough for two push bikes with oncoming traffic, after wearing flat spots in tyres stop short of running the *()&"!£$$% over & all the wankers could say is we have the right to ride two abreast after a bit of chit-chat :argue: we parted, way i see it cyclist's should be riding single file & inside the white line on the left hand side of the road in a 100k zone unless there is room for two end of rant :argh:

[Mikkel]

:angry2: you think it's dangerous for the cyclist's I was transporting a large loader home from Wanaka last week came around 75k corner in a 100k zone to fined two cyclist's taking up the left hand lane when there was a wide strip enough for two push bikes with oncoming traffic, after wearing flat spots in tyres stop short of running the *()&"!£$$% over & all the wankers could say is we have the right to ride two abreast after a bit of chit-chat :argue: we parted, way i see it cyclist's should be riding single file & inside the white line on the left hand side of the road in a 100k zone unless there is room for two end of rant :argh:

I hope you managed to get them to understand that the only way anyone would ever really find out, if they indeed were in their "right" to do as they did, would be if you had not managed to brake before running them over. ...and even then they would still loose.

[Kickaha]

The normal road rules don't apply to cyclists.

:msn-wink:

Or Motorcyclists who would rate right up with cyclist for inconsiderate behaviour ;)

Has anyone ever tried *555 for cyclists?

[bogan]

:angry2: you think it's dangerous for the cyclist's I was transporting a large loader home from Wanaka last week came around 75k corner in a 100k zone to fined two cyclist's taking up the left hand lane when there was a wide strip enough for two push bikes with oncoming traffic, after wearing flat spots in tyres stop short of running the *()&"!£$$% over & all the wankers could say is we have the right to ride two abreast after a bit of chit-chat :argue: we parted, way i see it cyclist's should be riding single file & inside the white line on the left hand side of the road in a 100k zone unless there is room for two end of rant :argh:

sounds like they are right

http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/factsheets/01.html


What rules must I follow?
...
If you're riding with other cyclists, don't ride more than two abreast. Ride in single file when you're passing other vehicles - including parked vehicles, or when you're impeding traffic behind you.
...

but i wonder if that'll be any consolation when they find themselves in hospital?

[MarkH]

sounds like they are right

http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/factsheets/01.html

Sounds like they are wrong to me!


Ride in single file . . . when you're impeding traffic behind you.

How does that not apply when riding in a 100kph zone with other traffic on the road? I think that it would be safe to assume that a pair of bicycles traveling at less than 40kph would be impeding any and all traffic that comes up behind them when in a 100 zone, therefore they should always be in single file. Also as considerate motorists they should be in single file and as far to the left as is safe to ride. Also in terms of their own safety they should be as far to the left as possible and in single file.

Riding 2 abreast on the open road just ain't a good idea!

[Kiwi Graham]

Cyclists are a concern in the city's too. They seem to think red lights aren't meant for them and will arrogantly cruise through is if not there at all.
They have specific lanes to cycle on/in but are often seen in groups several abreast clearly outside the line.
They are an arrogant race thats for sure.

[slofox]

Cyclists are a concern in the city's too. They seem to think red lights aren't meant for them and will arrogantly cruise through is if not there at all.
They have specific lanes to cycle on/in but are often seen in groups several abreast clearly outside the line.
They are an arrogant race thats for sure.

I came up behind a great herd of cyclists yesterday...100k zone. Totally blocking one side of the road. With some old dear puttering along behind at their speed - she couldn't pass because of oncoming traffic. Not a cyclist moved to make way for her. That's coz they own the road...

I noticed in this thread's title..."....turkeys and cyclists". You don't have to distinguish those two y'know...same thing...

[bogan]

Sounds like they are wrong to me!



How does that not apply when riding in a 100kph zone with other traffic on the road? I think that it would be safe to assume that a pair of bicycles traveling at less than 40kph would be impeding any and all traffic that comes up behind them when in a 100 zone, therefore they should always be in single file.

hmm, yeh, maybe thier factsheet is badly worded, i read that bit as if theres traffic stuck behind you pull over to let them pass, in shreks case they were only technically 'impeding' him during and after he almost ran them over. They should really have rear view mirrors for open road riding, and treat riding two up the same way other motorist do passing, only do it on clear roads with nobody behind you.



Also as considerate motorists they should be in single file and as far to the left as is safe to ride. Also in terms of their own safety they should be as far to the left as possible and in single file.

Riding 2 abreast on the open road just ain't a good idea!

Agree with you there

Thier speed seems comparable to that of a tractor, I even raced on once, was quiet hard to pass, then when i did he just drafted behind me (following the 0.1s rule :angry2:) hope he liked dust and deisle fumes. Anyhu, tractors as road users are:

1)fucking huge, load and hard too miss
2)required to display hazards and a spinning warning light (i think, we always have done anyway)
3)are generally driven by very courteous buggers (myself included :innocent:) who will pull over and wave you past etc, one guy took the pulling over thing a bit too far once and put his rake into a bridge, huge level of commitment!
4)pay to able to drive on the road (the contractors ones anyway)

So maybe cyclists need to step up their game!

[Swoop]

Cyclists are a concern in the city's too. They seem to think red lights aren't meant for them and will arrogantly cruise through is if not there at all.
They have specific lanes to cycle on/in but are often seen in groups several abreast clearly outside the line.
They are an arrogant race thats for sure.
I wonder if the plod like to increase their quota by ticketing illegal behaviour like this (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10602698).

[flyingcrocodile46]

see post 5, he's a bit of a turkey!

Heh! Well Scatman sure does a fine job of gobbling whenever Beyond shoots :killingme:killingme

[retro asian]

Nice article in the Herald today...something about losing weight through cycling.

In a little box, they sum up 5-6 advantages of riding a push bike.
At the bottom though is only one disadvantage: "5 times more likely to die".

[SPman]

Hmmmmm.........gotta watch out for them turkeys.........who ever they are......:innocent:

[Swoop]

Nice article in the Herald today...something about losing weight through cycling.

In a little box, they sum up 5-6 advantages of riding a push bike.
At the bottom though is only one disadvantage: "5 times more likely to die".
Yup. See post #50.

[Zrex]

Just how many points is a cyclist these days?

[_Shrek_]

:angry2: you think it's dangerous for the cyclist's I was transporting a large loader home from Wanaka last week came around 75k corner in a 100k zone to fined two cyclist's taking up the left hand lane when there was a wide strip enough for two push bikes with oncoming traffic, after wearing flat spots in tyres stop short of running the *()&"!£$$% over & all the wankers could say is we have the right to ride two abreast after a bit of chit-chat :argue: we parted, way i see it cyclist's should be riding single file & inside the white line on the left hand side of the road in a 100k zone unless there is room for two end of rant :argh:


sounds like they are right

http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/factsheets/01.html

read the bold of my 1st post even if you read their rights it does not alow them to take up the hole lane especially when there was no need I sugest you read what rules must i follow point 2, 5 & under courtesy on the road of the above link you quoted, I don't normaly have a problem with cyclist's until they do dump shit like this & the fact they caused my employer about 2k in tyre's

[Badjelly]

At the bottom though is only one disadvantage: "5 times more likely to die".

As opposed to 20-ish for riding a motorbike?

[modboy]

Cyclists are a concern in the city's too.
Motorcyclists were considered a "concern" on the Rimutuka Hill road, so they double yellow lined the entire hill.



They seem to think red lights aren't meant for them and will arrogantly cruise through is if not there at all.
Are cyclists meant to stop at red lights? :doh:


They have specific lanes to cycle on/in but are often seen in groups several abreast clearly outside the line.
I can only speak for Wellington, if cagers stopped parking in the cycle lanes we might be able to use them.


They are an arrogant race thats for sure. Unlike gxr riders :devil2:
(no offence Stormer - haha)

[bogan]

read the bold of my 1st post even if you read their rights it does not alow them to take up the hole lane especially when there was no need I sugest you read what rules must i follow point 2, 5 & under courtesy on the road of the above link you quoted, I don't normaly have a problem with cyclist's until they do dump shit like this & the fact they caused my employer about 2k in tyre's

yeh, but it doesnt state you can't take up the whole lane riding two abreast, as far left as you safely can can mean different things, specially if theres lycra constricting blood flow to the brain. I agree that they are idiotic for riding that way.


Nice article in the Herald today...something about losing weight through cycling.

In a little box, they sum up 5-6 advantages of riding a push bike.
At the bottom though is only one disadvantage: "5 times more likely to die".

swoops linked article (think its the same) say 5 more cyclists will die, not 5 times likely, sounds a bit of an absolute number, but i spose the harold arent known for awesome journalling.

[jrandom]

Has anyone ever tried *555 for cyclists?

No, but I've had someone ring *555 due to my behaviour on a bicycle.

:cool:

Many times, actually, for all I know, but I do know of one for sure, because the driver stopped to tell me about it.

The self-righteousness of the average human never ceases to amaze me.


They seem to think red lights aren't meant for them...

<img src="http://www.asofterworld.com/clean/balloon.jpg"/>


and will arrogantly cruise through

Well, that's not very nice. Personally, I make a point of cycling through red lights with humility.

[bogan]

Are cyclists meant to stop at red lights? :doh:


apparently they can get off and walk them anytime its safe, if they ride through I assume the 50pts for a cyclist comes in to play?

know a guy who hit a jaywalker just to prove his point, dude was acting all stauch crossing the road, looking straight at the oncoming driver assuming he would have to stop. Driver did slow down but still knocked the guy off his feet, so be warned, there are some angry people out there looking for any excuse

[modboy]

apparently they can get off and walk them anytime its safe, if they ride through I assume the 50pts for a cyclist comes in to play?

know a guy who hit a jaywalker just to prove his point, dude was acting all stauch crossing the road, looking straight at the oncoming driver assuming he would have to stop. Driver did slow down but still knocked the guy off his feet, so be warned, there are some angry people out there looking for any excuse

:whocares:

[MarkH]

No, but I've had someone ring *555 due to my behaviour on a bicycle.

Ooh - I hope they didn't catch your license plate! :lol:

[vtec]

Okay, time for some perspective.

How often do you find yourself stuck behind some cyclists two wide for more than 1 minute? If not very often then whats the big deal. If you are on a motorcycle, you are skinny enough to lanesplit surely theres enough room to overtake some bicycles. How much emotional damage happened to you when you had to ease off the throttle so you could do it safely?

I was driving along Tamaki drive the other day, and the traffic was pretty damn bad and I noticed that most cars only had one person in them, so effectively providing the same amount of transportation per vehicle as a bicycle. With all the cars going along there crawling at 20kph or less. The cars were actually hogging the whole lane, and the bicycles had to use either the center median strip or chance their luck going between the cars in traffic and the parked car door opening zone putting their lives at risk more so than usual. I don't hear any cyclists crying about being held up by cars.

I drive my car and feel that the main impediment to my progress appears to be other cars, and in fact I have never had a bicycle hold me up at all. I've been driving for ten years now. Usually when you overtake a bicycle you just end up waiting behind another car and the bicycle takes back the position.

Also of note, if you can't stop in the visible road in front of you then you are driving too fast for road conditions, take it to the track.

If people had to spend a certain number of hours on a bicycle before they were allowed to ride a motorbike or drive a car, I PROMISE there would be far less accidents.

Every now and then I've come up on bicycles on the open road, it seems pretty rare, so what do I do I've got a fucken dilemma on my hands, do I keep going at my same speed and hope nobody comes the other way so I can overtake them without having lost any of my precious kinetic energy, or do I ease up so I can overtake them in the visible space that I have on the road. Remember they are usually going at least 30kph, unless they are touring over 100k per day. So they are giving 30kph more space to ease up your speed in. lets say you are going 110kph, you only have to brush off 80kph to match their speed, in a space in front of you that is constantly moving forwards at 30kph, not bloody hard.

If I hear someone else crying about cyclists ruining their lives, I'll want to bitch slap them.

Having worked as a bicycle courier I've got some good insight, I'm a car driver and a motorcycle racer too. Now, as a bicycle in Central, you are INVISIBLE to all other road users and pedestrians, thusly you have to take your safety in your own hands (not all cyclists understand this). So, remember this is coming from a fringe of NZ cyclists, and in fact I represent on 2 of the courier fraternity who hold onto cars for extra speed, if you want to stay alive you cannot stick to the conventional road rules, you have to use ALL of the available riding space to keep yourself alive this includes footpaths, and the other side of the road, and sometimes you even have to dominate a car lane to prevent some muppet pushing you into the car door opening zone, I have been hit side on by a car while on the footpath doing 5kph as I was just warming up in the morning, this was my awakening when I realised I could not put ANY responsibility for my safety in anyone elses hands. I have therefore formulated a new road code for myself. 1. Do anything you can to not hit and not get hit by another vehicle or person. 2. Because you can't rely on anybody else to follow the rules with regard to bicycles, bicycles are completely exempt from the standard road code rules (as long as you are clever enough to not get caught).

On the open road you have to rely on people approaching you from behind taking enough responsibility not to hit you. Unfortunately it seems like that demographic is extremely agitated by this responsibility.

I don't understand why all different parts of society hate each other so much.

[beyond]

No problem with all that. The problem is when they are two and three abreast on blind corners making car drivers swerve around them and then the car drivers are busy coming at you in your lane making you swing off the road or having to take evasive action to prevent a head on.

[Katman]

Okay, time for some perspective.........


........I don't understand why all different parts of society hate each other so much.

And to add another perspective.......

To all those motorcyclists who have a deep seated resentment towards cyclists - there is a sizeable percentage of car drivers that feel the very same resentment towards motorcyclists.





(Oh, but that's right - they're just fucking cagers.)

:whistle:

[kiwifruit]

Cycling > Motorcycling.

[nsrpaul]

And to add another perspective.......

To all those motorcyclists who have a deep seated resentment towards cyclists - there is a sizeable percentage of car drivers that feel the very same resentment towards motorcyclists.





(Oh, but that's right - they're just fucking cagers.)

:whistle:

good call, you would think those on two wheels would stick together a little

all you big men need to try riding down your local hill in lycra, see how tough you are when you can still do 80kph on road race push bike tyres (think your mc has a small contact patch) and no leathers

push bike haters = small willy losers

[EJK]

Cycling > Motorcycling.

hear hear</10char>

[nsrpaul]

No problem with all that. The problem is when they are two and three abreast on blind corners making car drivers swerve around them and then the car drivers are busy coming at you in your lane making you swing off the road or having to take evasive action to prevent a head on.

agian fair call, but a small minority doesnt need to tar all cyclists with the same brush

also the car driver shouldn't be crossing the centre lane on a blind corner no mater what

If I think real hard I know fukwits from most areas of society, even motorcycling (ok less from there than others)

I hold up heaps of cars on my tractor, thats a real pain but what can you do, it just won't go very fast:rockon:

[nsrpaul]

Cycling > Motorcycling.

to right:rockon:

[bogan]

Okay, time for some perspective.
.......

I hear that, and personally i dont have much of a problem with sitting behind one for a little bit (no problem at all if they are riding considerately). But when they put themselves in real danger of being killed by other motorists (as in shreks case) it pisses me off a little, I cant imagine what it would feel like to be in a fatality causing accident, but Im sure it would seriously alter the lives of all involved.


agian fair call, but a small minority doesnt need to tar all cyclists with the same brush
...

Fair enuf indeed, but to put it back in perspective of beyond's OP, the warning about cyclist is a good one, they dont have mirrors (the majority anyway) and a lot don't seem to perform head checks, meaning you gotta be extra careful round them, and they are harder to spot than tractors and other slow moving vehicles. Maybe we are just jealous that they pay no RUC, ACC and need no training, license, and in some cases, no understanding of road rules to be allowed to ride.

[Katman]

I cant imagine what it would feel like to be in a fatality causing accident, but Im sure it would seriously alter the lives of all involved.


I wonder how many car drivers have had to live with the vision of a motorcyclist slamming into their windscreen through no fault of the car driver.

[twinkle]

No problem with all that. The problem is when they are two and three abreast on blind corners making car drivers swerve around them and then the car drivers are busy coming at you in your lane making you swing off the road or having to take evasive action to prevent a head on.
making? how does 80kg of cyclist make a car do anything? lean on the side of it and push it into the other lane? :rofl:
You mean car drivers can't be arsed braking and simply swerve into the oncoming lane regardless, right? :baby:

[beyond]

making? how does 80kg of cyclist make a car do anything? lean on the side of it and push it into the other lane? :rofl:
You mean car drivers can't be arsed braking and simply swerve into the oncoming lane regardless, right? :baby:

Yeah, exactly right :)

[EXCDirt]

All the Two wheeled people fight each other..... again.

Unfortunately it is perfectly legal to ride "two Abreast", most of the time as Cyclists call it.
Sometimes it is not, ie round parked cars and passing other cyclists.
It is also peoples impatience that makes you just want to speed past cyclists just as you get grumpy as you wait behind some tractor driving hillbilly. Or some dropkicks towing a caravan on the Thames coast road.

I would also add that I have had just as many close calls on the push bike(s) as I have had on the motorbike.
Car drivers are still asses... That can be agreed on by everyone.
I agree that lots of cyclists push the rules and limits, but motorcyclists also tend to (mostly) travel at speeds in excess of what is considered safe.

The reason I have a dirtbike now is that no car has a chance of going where you can on a dirtbike. Well.... the tards that try to knock us all off on the way to work anyway.

Nuff said from me, I like anything with two wheels really.

[Motu]

The thing I find most puzzling about cyclists - most of them (including me) have a license and drive a car.I'm sure most of them would get mad if someone deliberately slowed them down,made them take evasive action or forced them onto the opposite side of the centre line.But put them on a bike and suddenly they have a ''right'' to do that same thing to other people.Or maybe they just really are better than us.

[RavenR44]

Tamaki Drive popped into this thread backaways which sparked my interest.

I make the daily trek into and out of the city via this stretch of congestion and over the last decade I've made a couple of observations which I'd like to share with you if I may. If not, stop me now... [pauses for response, and having had none, stoically continues].

There has never been a circumstance where the crawling motorised mob hold up our lycra encased bretheren. There are a few reasons for this, not least of which is the fact that the cyclista pop down the left of the dawdling cages for the vast bulk of the journey, using the bus lane, the white lined zone wherever it's available and just undertaking the motors where it's not.

When in some bizarre circumstance that's not possible, the cyclista pop along the outside for a spell before swerving majestically back onto the shoulder. This, as you can imagine, means that the 6.45am to 8.45am snarl-up of horseless carriages is of no consequence to the majority of the cyclonauts at all, since they invariably navigate around them at the greatest velocity their quads can manage.

If all else fails, and the above mentioned manouevres are rendered void, the cycle-mounted speedsters could, at a pinch, assuming they would lower themselves to indulge, use the [gasp!!!] actual cycle lane that the city fathers generously provide for them, this lane extending the full length of Tamaki Drive.

But for some reason, they simply won't have a bar of it. (See what I did there?) :)

Perhaps the cycle lane clashes with the graphics on the Lance-Armstrong-Wannabe lycra couture that they pose about in on each and every trip. (And it appears to be a rule that you can't wear the same outfit on consecutive days). Or maybe using the cycle lane undermines the studied metrosexual chic that being a part of the cyclisti imbues on their waxen-legged personas.

Whatever it may be, one thing is for certain - they would sooner be in peril of maiming-by-automobile than to use that cycle lane.

On the return journey from the city, there's a rather narrow bit outside the Mechanics Bay complex where the drivers in the left lane must squeeze their voitures between the right hand road marking and the casually disorganised chaos that passes for parallel parking in Auckland on their left. This is somewhat like threading a needle with a bit of swiftly travelling number 8 wire and most days the road is littered with exterior mirror particles.

Imagine then, the daily chagrin experienced by the home-bound motorist who, intent on upholding his or her self worth by accomplishing the needle-threading at the expected 60 kph, finds that a gaggle of cyclemaniacs have run the red (as usual) and are traversing the bottleneck at an Armstrong-frightening 30 kph.

And the bottleneck continues for a km or so, with the frustrated motornauts queued seethingly behind the oblivious cycletards before losing it entirely and lurching into the right hand lane, itself replete with tunnel-visioned, wheel-gripping queue jumpers looking for the smallest sign of weakness from those in the left lane so they can push their way in and gain a self-worth enhancing single car space in front of some imagined opponent.

And guess what? Yes Virginia. You are correct - there's a perfectly good cycle lane which has been graciously and generously provided by the city for that band of lycra-loving denizens, the cyclists. But they won't use it.

Perhaps the motormaniacs might use it instead, because there's not a hint of a cyclist on there. Ever.

:rolleyes:

[vtec]

Tamaki Drive popped into this thread backaways which sparked my interest.

There has never been a circumstance where the crawling motorised mob hold up our lycra encased bretheren. There are a few reasons for this, not least of which is the fact that the cyclista pop down the left of the dawdling cages for the vast bulk of the journey, using the bus lane, the white lined zone wherever it's available and just undertaking the motors where it's not.

When in some bizarre circumstance that's not possible, the cyclista pop along the outside for a spell before swerving majestically back onto the shoulder. This, as you can imagine, means that the 6.45am to 8.45am snarl-up of horseless carriages is of no consequence to the majority of the cyclonauts at all, since they invariably navigate around them at the greatest velocity their quads can manage.

If all else fails, and the above mentioned manouevres are rendered void, the cycle-mounted speedsters could, at a pinch, assuming they would lower themselves to indulge, use the [gasp!!!] actual cycle lane that the city fathers generously provide for them, this lane extending the full length of Tamaki Drive.

But for some reason, they simply won't have a bar of it. (See what I did there?) :)

Perhaps the cycle lane clashes with the graphics on the Lance-Armstrong-Wannabe lycra couture that they pose about in on each and every trip. (And it appears to be a rule that you can't wear the same outfit on consecutive days). Or maybe using the cycle lane undermines the studied metrosexual chic that being a part of the cyclisti imbues on their waxen-legged personas.

Whatever it may be, one thing is for certain - they would sooner be in peril of maiming-by-automobile than to use that cycle lane.

On the return journey from the city, there's a rather narrow bit outside the Mechanics Bay complex where the drivers in the left lane must squeeze their voitures between the right hand road marking and the casually disorganised chaos that passes for parallel parking in Auckland on their left. This is somewhat like threading a needle with a bit of swiftly travelling number 8 wire and most days the road is littered with exterior mirror particles.

Imagine then, the daily chagrin experienced by the home-bound motorist who, intent on upholding his or her self worth by accomplishing the needle-threading at the expected 60 kph, finds that a gaggle of cyclemaniacs have run the red (as usual) and are traversing the bottleneck at an Armstrong-frightening 30 kph.

And the bottleneck continues for a km or so, with the frustrated motornauts queued seethingly behind the oblivious cycletards before losing it entirely and lurching into the right hand lane, itself replete with tunnel-visioned, wheel-gripping queue jumpers looking for the smallest sign of weakness from those in the left lane so they can push their way in and gain a self-worth enhancing single car space in front of some imagined opponent.

And guess what? Yes Virginia. You are correct - there's a perfectly good cycle lane which has been graciously and generously provided by the city for that band of lycra-loving denizens, the cyclists. But they won't use it.

Perhaps the motormaniacs might use it instead, because there's not a hint of a cyclist on there. Ever.

:rolleyes:

You don't think the cyclists have to slow down to safely overtake or undertake the cars? Just like when cars have to safely overtake bicycles sometimes they have to slow down, or do they just "pop" past on the right without being held up whatsoever? The gaps between the moving cars and the parked cars constantly changes as 97.345% (fact) of the drivers are completely unaware of a bicycle approaching from behind.

The cycle lane you speak of is actually a line down the middle of the FOOTPATH. Would you feel comfortable driving a gokart at 40kph along the footpath shared with pedestrians, rollerbladers, prams, lamp posts, signage and other cyclists coming the other way at speeds of up to 55kph? You are definitely one rider/driver who could do with the increased perspective and awareness that comes with spending time on a bicycle.

And finally OH NO the cyclists ran the red putting all car drivers and the easter bunny in dire peril. It is rare for a car to give way to a bicycle. In fact every time a car gives way to me when I ride my bicycle I give them a wave in appreciation. Bicycles have no rights on the road, so don't expect them to follow the rules that don't protect them whatsoever.

Why is the waterfront even seen as an option for commuters in cars? It's a scenic route that is only faster for most of the people that go through there because the motorway is too congested by guess what... CARS. Limit Tamaki drive to local traffic, busses, motorcycles, and bicycles and bam several problems solved. The downside would mean more cars on the motorway.

The problem is not bicycles it is overpopulation of cars. And drivers attitudes. When bicycles reach a critical mass they will regain their rights, perspectives will change and it will become safe like in places in Europe.

More here about the unsuitability of the "perfectly good" footpath cycle lane: http://www.bettertransport.org.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=149&start=20

Every person on a bicycle (when commuting or delivering) is one less person in a car actually impeding your journey not just being a 5 second obstacle for you to get back in the line of traffic so they can pass you again at the next traffic lights if not before. I still don't see what your beef with cyclists is.... In your >1ton car you're the one putting them in danger?

[twinkle]

The thing I find most puzzling about cyclists - most of them (including me) have a license and drive a car.I'm sure most of them would get mad if someone deliberately slowed them down,made them take evasive action or forced them onto the opposite side of the centre line.But put them on a bike and suddenly they have a ''right'' to do that same thing to other people.Or maybe they just really are better than us.
It is just human nature, watch the pedestrians dodging each other on queen street at lunch time for instance, similar thing to what happens on the road only without the abuse.
Before combustion engines and bicycles I am sure pedestrians and horse drawn carriages where giving each other shit too.

[PrincessBandit]

.........


Bicycles have no rights on the road, so don't expect them to follow the rules that don't protect them whatsoever.
Weird logic


Why is the waterfront even seen as an option for commuters in cars?
Um, 'cos it's a road perhaps?

Limit Tamaki drive to local traffic, busses, motorcycles, and bicycles and bam several problems solved. The downside would mean more cars on the motorway.
Cool. So you 'solve' one problem and create another. Clever.

The problem is not bicycles it is overpopulation of cars. blah blah blah you're in auckland, get used to it.

Every person on a bicycle (when commuting or delivering) is one less person in a car actually impeding your journey not just being a 5 second obstacle for you to get back in the line of traffic so they can pass you again at the next traffic lights if not before. I still don't see what your beef with cyclists is.... In your >1ton car you're the one putting them in danger?

I don't think people have a beef with A bicycle rider doing his/her thing. It's when you get a gaggle of them. As you so kindly point out "they have no rights on the road blah blah blah" - should they not use it at all then, or if they do don't you think it would be in their interests too to share the road considerately? Or is it only car drivers who have to acquiesce to all other people who want their share of the "not the footpath" thing?

[2wheeldrifter]

Where are all these turkeys at?

Auckland...... :) lol

[RavenR44]

"you don't think the cyclists have to slow down to safely overtake or undertake the cars?"

No, because it's not about safety; it's seemingly about fantasizing that they're on the Tour de Farmacy and the cyclists apparently don't feel any obligation to "safely" overtake crawling cages.

"The cycle lane you speak of is actually a line down the middle of the FOOTPATH. Would you feel comfortable driving a gokart at 40kph along the footpath shared with pedestrians, rollerbladers, prams, lamp posts, signage and other cyclists coming the other way at speeds of up to 55kph?"

It's still a dedicated cycle lane and there is absolutely no rule that dictates you have to travel "at 40kph along the footpath shared with pedestrians, rollerbladers, prams, lamp posts, signage and other cyclists coming the other way at speeds of up to 55kph". Again, the Lance Armstrong Wannabe mentality at play. You can choose to use that cycle lane and leave the fantasy for the weekend, or insist on your right to ride at high speed amongst the traffic. Your call, but don't complain about the lack of safety when you have valid alternatives.

"Why is the waterfront even seen as an option for commuters in cars? It's a scenic route that is only faster for most of the people that go through there because the motorway is too congested by guess what... CARS."

Because people like me need to use our cars for our income and it's the most direct route into the city from where we live, perhaps? No matter that it's scenic, it's a road. If you want to advance your elite, minority cyclist needs, petition the government for a better dedicated cycle lane, because, guess what, ours is a motorised society and it won't be changing while you or I still draw breath.

"I still don't see what your beef with cyclists is.... In your >1ton car you're the one putting them in danger"

Just a heads-up for you - I don't have a beef with cyclists using Tamaki Drive. I expect people who are at a huge safety disadvantage to use some common sense and put themselves at less risk. You feel that's not necessary or desirable? Fine.

I hope that other road users will show me the same courtesy I show them. I'm constantly disappointed and cyclists are no exception. You feel that your rights to be there override courtesy? Fine.

"And finally OH NO the cyclists ran the red putting all car drivers and the easter bunny in dire peril. It is rare for a car to give way to a bicycle."

The arrogant attitude of some cyclists in ignoring the road rules other road users follow is quite nicely summed up by your response above. And you wonder why people detest cyclists?

Apparently you're so immersed in your anti-car mindset that you didn't actually comprehend my post above. If you read it again, I hope you'll see that the car driver copped a heap of sarcasm as well.

And as my parting shot, I have family who engage in competitive cycling.

Andy.

[Pixie]

I'm lost for words.

Yay!!........

[Pixie]

Blah blah cyclists blah blah inconsiderate blah blah cagers blah blah bikers polishing their halos blah blah atom bomb blah blah...............

[Pixie]

The thing I find most puzzling about cyclists - most of them (including me) have a license and drive a car.I'm sure most of them would get mad if someone deliberately slowed them down,made them take evasive action or forced them onto the opposite side of the centre line.But put them on a bike and suddenly they have a ''right'' to do that same thing to other people.Or maybe they just really are better than us.
The same way the nicest people climb into a cars and become cunts

[Kickaha]

The arrogant attitude of some cyclists in ignoring the road rules other road users follow is quite nicely summed up by your response above. And you wonder why people detest cyclists?

They're not so different than some motorcyclists then


I'm lost for words.

We can only hope

[RavenR44]

They're not so different than some motorcyclists then

We can only hope

No, sadly. But I thought that was a given.

[vtec]

I don't think people have a beef with A bicycle rider doing his/her thing. It's when you get a gaggle of them. As you so kindly point out "they have no rights on the road blah blah blah" - should they not use it at all then, or if they do don't you think it would be in their interests too to share the road considerately? Or is it only car drivers who have to acquiesce to all other people who want their share of the "not the footpath" thing?

I never said I solved the problem of car congestion. But it sure as hell ain't bicycles fault. The not the footpath rule is actually a law and in place for a reason, the footpath is unsafe for the speed that bicycles maintain. Also, my comment about bicycles not having any rights was not about their situation under the law, it's about the reality of riding a bicycle, you have the right to try to not get hit by cars, this is your only infallible right on a bicycle.

If anyone can calculate the inconvenience caused by these "gaggles of bicycles" that are seemingly everywhere and making road use intolerable. Give me details of how much damage they've caused to you, and how much extra time in traffic they create for you, and then if it is worked out with sound logic my heart will pump a little bit of custard for you. Volume of cars on the roads is actually the cause of all this frustration, bicycles are just an easy target for people who lose their rationality.

[RavenR44]

Blah blah cyclists blah blah inconsiderate blah blah cagers blah blah bikers polishing their halos blah blah atom bomb blah blah...............

Someone forcing you to read this thread?

BTW, the 'Ignore' feature also works well, if you feel you need it.

[Kickaha]

If anyone can calculate the inconvenience caused by these "gaggles of bicycles" that are seemingly everywhere and making road use intolerable. Give me details of how much damage they've caused to you, and how much extra time in traffic they create for you,.

Over my lifetime so far? well lets see, hmmmmmm I'd say none

[modboy]

Here is the issue. Car drivers don't like having to slow down in order to safely pass cyclists (who are quite within their rights to ride 2 abreast) because it interferes with their god given driving pleasure.

The irony is that round town a bike will almost always beat a car anywhere.

I've had cars pull up behind me (solitary me on my pushbike) hit the horn and hold it down for several seconds (indicating extreme frustration) on congested inner city multilane roads when they can see an open gap ahead of me because, I've slowed down their A-B trip by a several milliseconds, only for me to pull up next to them at the next set of lights.

All this indicates is an extreme lack of patience on the car drivers part - and why the fuck should I have to tolerate that.

As I've said before the problem is that many car drivers have been led to believe they have a fucking birth-right to drive unimpeded by anything else (including other car drivers) on every road in NZ. They all need to collectively let this delusion go and realise that just because you are not travelling at the speed limit this doesn't mean you do not have a right to use the road.

[vtec]

No, because it's not about safety; it's seemingly about fantasizing that they're on the Tour de Farmacy and the cyclists apparently don't feel any obligation to "safely" overtake crawling cages.
Bingo, same attitude that the cars have towards bicycle's however, when you look at who is actually facing any danger to their health it sure as hell ain't car drivers, so what's the beef.

It's still a dedicated cycle lane and there is absolutely no rule that dictates you have to travel "at 40kph along the footpath shared with pedestrians, rollerbladers, prams, lamp posts, signage and other cyclists coming the other way at speeds of up to 55kph". Again, the Lance Armstrong Wannabe mentality at play. You can choose to use that cycle lane and leave the fantasy for the weekend, or insist on your right to ride at high speed amongst the traffic. Your call, but don't complain about the lack of safety when you have valid alternatives.

Maybe because they want to maintain their speed thus simulating the riding conditions that are sustained in a race, you want to be competitive then you have to train 7 days a week, (plenty of these lycra freaks do race) or maybe it's because they want to get home in half the time it would take if they are doing between 10-20kph on the footpath, so 1 hour instead of 2 as an example

Because people like me need to use our cars for our income and it's the most direct route into the city from where we live, perhaps? No matter that it's scenic, it's a road. If you want to advance your elite, minority cyclist needs, petition the government for a better dedicated cycle lane, because, guess what, ours is a motorised society and it won't be changing while you or I still draw breath.

Okay, I'll tell all the people that ride bicycles to go drive their cars (most of them would own cars aswell) and we'll see what happens to traffic flow along Tamaki drive. And NZ will sink yet further down an oil debt whole into poverty. I don't even believe in AGW, or the negative effects of CO2 proposed by some scientists but I well and truly understand the negative economic effect oil and car consumption has on NZ. In the early 1900's NZ had the highest GDP per capita in the world, now it has sunk to the borders of poverty. I can't believe some of you people don't understand the favour they are doing you by getting their cars off the road. The mind boggles.

Just a heads-up for you - I don't have a beef with cyclists using Tamaki Drive. I expect people who are at a huge safety disadvantage to use some common sense and put themselves at less risk. You feel that's not necessary or desirable? Fine.

I hope that other road users will show me the same courtesy I show them. I'm constantly disappointed and cyclists are no exception. You feel that your rights to be there override courtesy? Fine.

So what's it to you if their behaviour appears to be dangerous to someone who's obviously never commuted on a bicycle, they are not impacting on your safety at all, unless you choose to take unsafe actions to avoid them without doing so safely (repeated for effect), the courtesy you speak of is rarely offered to bicycles, and yet I still don't understand how a bicycle which doesn't take up any room or slow you significantly is not showing you courtesy? Is the courtesy you demand just a built up focus in your mind on the seeming misbehaviours of this group of road users? Are they a danger? do they negatively (or positively) affect your commute time? I think you'll find if you ask yourself these questions and answer them honestly you might notice that the type of vehicle that fails these questions are generally cars, busses and trucks, and the odd motorcycle. you are feeling rorted because bicycles don't stick to all the rules, there are lots of good reasons for this which you will only understand if you spend a couple of days cycling to your work (if you're not a tradey) and see how you feel about it. Would be better if you spent enough time to get experienced though.

The arrogant attitude of some cyclists in ignoring the road rules other road users follow is quite nicely summed up by your response above. And you wonder why people detest cyclists?

Apparently you're so immersed in your anti-car mindset that you didn't actually comprehend my post above. If you read it again, I hope you'll see that the car driver copped a heap of sarcasm as well.

And as my parting shot, I have family who engage in competitive cycling.

Andy.

I'm arrogant. Okay, so are you :P Point one dealt with.

I'm not anti car at all, I just don't like sitting in car traffic. Parting shot, bam you know people who race bicycle, wow, and you're still completely ignorant about it. I love cars, some would almost consider me a boy racer because of my modified Honda. But the difference between me and most other drivers is that I've got some PERSPECTIVE.

I'll give you a summary about why I run all the red lights I possibly can. As this is the only law that has been agreed that cyclists sometimes behave badly around.

1. When starting off a bicycle is slow to gain momentum, and car drivers are very unforgiving for this so the bicycle will often be shaved down the side just after a green and swamped and pushed too close to parked cars. If you start off early or get clear of the race of cars from the lights, you increase your safety by a large margin.
2. Maintenance of energy. Bicycles are hard work, but stop start riding is much harder and slower than going at a consistent speed.
3. It is very often completely safe for a skinny bicycle to run a red as long as they are not crossing a traffic flow, I'm a master of inner city traffic as I've done thousands of courier kilometres in the CBD, I could show you quite a few of the phases where it is safe for bicycle to boost across an intersection.
4. Bicycle courier... time is money, lights in NZ are never synchronised, and even if they were if I want to make survival money, then I'll do everything I can to get more work done. 100% commission.

Also should be noted, that there's not that many cyclists who run red lights but a few of us retards run heaps, and thus get noticed more. JRandom's got a ticket or two from running reds, but I've done it for years possibly 10's of thousands of times and never been picked up. I cycle more "invisibly" than J though.

Now what I need you to do is point out how cyclists are more dangerous, have a negative impact on traffic flows, inconvenience you, damage your vehicle, rape your wife, and then maybe I'll understand why you chose cyclists to vent your traffic frustrations. Anyone noticed that car drivers get all worked up about lane splitting motorcycles? I'll start another thread on a lane splitting observation that I just made yesterday.

[bogan]

I'll give you a summary about why I run all the red lights I possibly can. As this is the only law that has been agreed that cyclists sometimes behave badly around.

Also should be noted, that there's not that many cyclists who run red lights but a few of us retards run heaps, and thus get noticed more. JRandom's got a ticket or two from running reds, but I've done it for years possibly 10's of thousands of times and never been picked up. I cycle more "invisibly" than J though.

Anyone noticed that car drivers get all worked up about lane splitting motorcycles? I'll start another thread on a lane splitting observation that I just made yesterday.

You do know running red lights is illegal right? you can have lots of good reasons but its still illegal, so you can see why other road used might get a bit annoyed about it?

Lane splitting if done considerately is legal, the problem here is most cagers dont realise this, and get angry, i've had to inform many people of this fact, and now they don't get angry about it.

Each method of road transport has advantages and disadvantages, some inherant, some governed by road rules, pick one, deal with the disadvantages, but don't put yourself above the law. You do the rest of the road users in your group a dis-service by doing so.

[vtec]

You do know running red lights is illegal right? you can have lots of good reasons but its still illegal, so you can see why other road used might get a bit annoyed about it?

Lane splitting if done considerately is legal, the problem here is most cagers dont realise this, and get angry, i've had to inform many people of this fact, and now they don't get angry about it.

Each method of road transport has advantages and disadvantages, some inherant, some governed by road rules, pick one, deal with the disadvantages, but don't put yourself above the law. You do the rest of the road users in your group a dis-service by doing so.

I think it's mostly jealousy, I don't really know, still trying to get a handle on the ire in this situation. I don't get annoyed with other people doing things that may be thought of as "discourteous" or naughty as long as it doesn't negatively impact me or others. I have yet to have a reasonable logical explanation of how bicycles negatively impact on car drivers lives. Thought about it heaps this morning, and I've come up with this.
Car drivers are annoyed because cyclists actually exist on a moral high ground of creating minimal pollution, healthy living, traffic freedom, minimal danger to others, no damage to the roads, etc, and the inherent laziness in a person seeks to find some reason to demonise this segment of society, lest it becomes so normal that it is almost an expectation, a bit like having a flatmate who makes you feel lazy because he does pressups while you are watching TV, psychology is a funny thing. Had a chat with this guy who was saying how annoying he found it that his flatmate would exercise while watching the TV with him. Unfortunately I pointed out this was something that I myself do. People don't like to have their shortcomings stuck in their face all the time.

Unfortunately bicycle couriers are above the law :P That's what makes it so much fun. Catch me if you can. :lol:

My parting shot, the more people on bicycles and motorcycles, the more room for your cars on the roads. The less money required for spending on extending the roading network.

[RavenR44]

Most of your post just rehashes your earlier work, so I won't bother responding to that, and if you think I'm arrogant, you're entitled to your opinion.

The bit below interests me...

"1. When starting off a bicycle is slow to gain momentum, and car drivers are very unforgiving for this so the bicycle will often be shaved down the side just after a green and swamped and pushed too close to parked cars. If you start off early or get clear of the race of cars from the lights, you increase your safety by a large margin.
2. Maintenance of energy. Bicycles are hard work, but stop start riding is much harder and slower than going at a consistent speed.
3. It is very often completely safe for a skinny bicycle to run a red as long as they are not crossing a traffic flow, I'm a master of inner city traffic as I've done thousands of courier kilometres in the CBD, I could show you quite a few of the phases where it is safe for bicycle to boost across an intersection.
4. Bicycle courier... time is money, lights in NZ are never synchronised, and even if they were if I want to make survival money, then I'll do everything I can to get more work done. 100% commission."

You choose to behave illegally on the roads because it's important to you personally. Your own needs clearly outweigh the common good and trump the law of the land. You are perhaps the quintissential example of why people detest cyclists. Yet you can't understand their reaction?

"Anyone noticed that car drivers get all worked up about lane splitting motorcycles?"

Yes. I'm certain we all have. Your point? Badly behaved motorcyclists are also a pain, just as are car drivers and cyclists. Besides you perhaps, who's arguing they're not?

"I'll start another thread on a lane splitting observation that I just made yesterday."

Good for you, and if you like I'll contribute a post or two. I didn't start this thread, BTW, in case you were confused about that. I note that you still haven't re-read my original post. Or maybe you have a comprehension problem. If there's something there that's not clear, I'll try to clarify it.

[vtec]

Explain how me running reds on a bicycle negatively affects "the common good". Also, while on your righteous law abiding horse, please tell me that you never exceed the speed limits, and then I'll agree with your point and never run a red light again.

You didn't see my point about car drivers ire towards a seemingly harmless (yet sometimes illegal) lanesplitting motorcycle. That's because you have closed your mind, I'll expand for you. Car drivers get annoyed with motorcycle riders splitting for whatever reason, the same closed minded psychology gets motorcyclists and drivers annoyed with cyclists, who also don't negatively impact them.

I'll assume you agree with the parts of my argument that you have chosen to not respond to.

[RavenR44]

Explain how me running reds on a bicycle negatively affects "the common good". Also, while on your righteous law abiding horse, please tell me that you never exceed the speed limits, and then I'll agree with your point and never run a red light again.

You didn't see my point about car drivers ire towards a seemingly harmless (yet sometimes illegal) lanesplitting motorcycle. That's because you have closed your mind, I'll expand for you. Car drivers get annoyed with motorcycle riders splitting for whatever reason, the same closed minded psychology gets motorcyclists and drivers annoyed with cyclists, who also don't negatively impact them.

I'll assume you agree with the parts of my argument that you have chosen to not respond to.

Then you'll assume wrongly vtec. But attempting to reason with you has so far proven futile, so I'll leave it for you to have the final say that you're seemingly desperate for.

Andy.

[modboy]

You do know running red lights is illegal right? you can have lots of good reasons but its still illegal

... and motorcyclists (myself included) NEVER do anything illegal !

For fucks sake - what really really pisses me off about this entire argument is the fucking wankers that assume the position of the moral high ground.

We all break the law - I don't know any motorcyclists that haven't ever sped. For fucks sake, parking your bike on a footpath is illegal - so please don't tell me because something is illegal I therefore should not do it. You deservedly will be met with a barrage of abuse and rightly so (Unless you are Mother Teresa)

When I rode a scooter I was all over the place, rode on footpaths, snuck down one way streets the wrong way, rode over a railway pedestrian overbridge. My convenience was more important that most other things. AND THIS IS EXACTLY what the issue is with car drivers. Their convenience trumps a couple of cyclists doing 33k two abreast - well all I can say to those car drivers that get pissed of with this because they have to slow down and wait to get passed.

Fuck em !

Since when did my impatience become more important than your safety.

[bogan]

Explain how me running reds on a bicycle negatively affects "the common good". Also, while on your righteous law abiding horse, please tell me that you never exceed the speed limits, and then I'll agree with your point and never run a red light again.

You didn't see my point about car drivers ire towards a seemingly harmless (yet sometimes illegal) lanesplitting motorcycle. That's because you have closed your mind, I'll expand for you. Car drivers get annoyed with motorcycle riders splitting for whatever reason, the same closed minded psychology gets motorcyclists and drivers annoyed with cyclists, who also don't negatively impact them.

I'll assume you agree with the parts of my argument that you have chosen to not respond to.

You seem pretty confident your running of red does not endanger or negatively effect anybody, Ill trust you judgement on that one and agree, high vis intersections could be run with little or no risk. But what if less skilled rider were to emulate you actions after seeing you do it and assuming it is legal? Carnage could ensue.

Jealousy could be a part of it (think i said that in an earlier post) but i think inconsiderate and illeagal actions conrtibute greatly to the annoyance between road user types. Applying you logic to all road users would see everyone treating red lights as give way intersections, cars have better acceleration and stopping distances so are probly better equiped for doing so (aside form the lack of vision of course), my question to you, why should cyclists be the only ones allowed to tread red lights as give ways?

[bogan]

... and motorcyclists (myself included) NEVER do anything illegal !

For fucks sake - what really really pisses me off about this entire argument is the fucking wankers that assume the position of the moral high ground.

course ive done illegal stuff on my bike, but i do so with consideration for other motorists, if theres any around i generally wont do any illegal stuff, apart from maybe the odd 120kmhr pass, and I've never run a red light (even stopped at a green once), ill refer you to the point in my previous post, why are cyclists allowed to behave in ways that other motorists cannot?

[vtec]

You seem pretty confident your running of red does not endanger or negatively effect anybody, Ill trust you judgement on that one and agree, high vis intersections could be run with little or no risk. But what if less skilled rider were to emulate you actions after seeing you do it and assuming it is legal? Carnage could ensue.

Jealousy could be a part of it (think i said that in an earlier post) but i think inconsiderate and illeagal actions conrtibute greatly to the annoyance between road user types. Applying you logic to all road users would see everyone treating red lights as give way intersections, cars have better acceleration and stopping distances so are probly better equiped for doing so (aside form the lack of vision of course), my question to you, why should cyclists be the only ones allowed to tread red lights as give ways?

Good questions bogan, having to think about them.
First paragraph, yes you are right less skilled riders can put themselves in danger trying to emulate me, that's why not all riders run reds. I'm not here to wrap anyone else in cotton wool though, and if someone crashes their motorbike on a group ride because the leader was going too fast, I think that the person who crashed is entirely responsible.

The reason why bicycles are so good at running red lights (even more so than motorcycles) is their nimbleness, combined with their small dimensions. Unfortunately it takes too long to explain how I run the reds would have to show you some tricks for heavy traffic navigation on the bicycle. It is actually an art form, which involves memorising phases, using the spaces between cars waiting at the lights on the wrong side of the road, and using the footpath. Also, I'm not arguing that they should be allowed to run the reds, I'm merely arguing that it's actually advantageous and safer to do so in some conditions. Also, it's one of the things that makes bicycle couriers faster than motorcycle couriers. Bicycles are harder to prosecute without physically being stopped, and they are physically much harder to stop in heavy traffic than a car or even a motorcycle. Remember, I'm actually the minority here, I'm probably responsible for 2% of bicycles running red lights in the CBD area of Auckland when I'm working haha.

Why do I do it... money, and sometimes when I'm not working just because the phases are shit. Also, for the safety reasons aforementioned, not getting swamped and shaved lol.

Forgot to mention I'm also arguing that it is neither unsafe nor incosiderate when done properly.

[modboy]

course ive done illegal stuff on my bike, but i do so with consideration for other motorists, if theres any around i generally wont do any illegal stuff, apart from maybe the odd 120kmhr pass, and I've never run a red light (even stopped at a green once), ill refer you to the point in my previous post, why are cyclists allowed to behave in ways that other motorists cannot?

Why are motorcyclists allowed to behave in ways cagers cannot. Weaving in an out of traffic at 100k on motorways, splitting lanes etc.

It's up to police to enforce it.

As a cyclist it is (almost) always safer to carefully run through a red light provided you are not moving into the path of oncoming traffic - and why would you - this is particularly the case in congested city traffic. Part of the reason I run red lights on my push bike is to do with being courteous to other drivers - getting out of their way at the lights.

I've split traffic at lights only for some wanker in a cage to try to run me off the road (I was on my vespa) a well placed John Bull boot into a side panel of his car quietened him down. No one seems to try it on my Triumph, I look at them like I'm in the hells angels, give the debaffled Arrow a rev and they usually let me pull away without argument.

Point is drivers get jealous and enraged if you get one car length ahead of them - this is the majority of the problem. And as I've said - the only sane response to that is ...

fuck em.

[vtec]

course ive done illegal stuff on my bike, but i do so with consideration for other motorists, if theres any around i generally wont do any illegal stuff, apart from maybe the odd 120kmhr pass, and I've never run a red light (even stopped at a green once), ill refer you to the point in my previous post, why are cyclists allowed to behave in ways that other motorists cannot?
Hey man, now you're the one cherry picking which laws you think are acceptable and considerate to break. Explain how a bicycle running a red light is inconsiderate? And on the contrary explain how you speeding is considerate?

[modboy]

Explain how a bicycle running a red light is inconsiderate? And on the contrary explain how you speeding is considerate?

+1

Nicely said

Exactly vtec !!! People that want to stand on moral high ground ought to become clergy.

[sondela]

For goodness' sake people, lighten up!!!
A light hearted take on the 'joys' of the beginning of summer by the original postee Beyond was getting bogged down in the usual mire of argument and dissention, so we have another equally light-hearted take on the situation by our newbie friend RavenR44.

His post was funny dammit! And he's new to KB but still he gets the venom usually reserved for those who have apparently been embedded here for life... sigh..

Just not what biking's all about.

[bogan]

For goodness' sake people, lighten up!!!
A light hearted take on the 'joys' of the beginning of summer by the original postee Beyond was getting bogged down in the usual mire of argument and dissention, so we have another equally light-hearted take on the situation by our newbie friend RavenR44.

His post was funny dammit! And he's new to KB but still he gets the venom usually reserved for those who have apparently been embedded here for life... sigh..

Just not what biking's all about.

exactly, soon he shall learn that the bulk of kb'r is about the senseless and pointless arguing, I dont come here for the biking, i get on my bike for the biking :2thumbsup but yes, i take your point, i shall stop now.... i mean soon, i just need closure!


Hey man, now you're the one cherry picking which laws you think are acceptable and considerate to break. Explain how a bicycle running a red light is inconsiderate? And on the contrary explain how you speeding is considerate?

Thats quite possibly the crux of it, what we as individual motorist perceive as considerate, is not what others do, thus generating animosity (think thats the right word) between groups. I shall agree with your logic, but ill still be extra careful round those dangerous cyclist in summer, and those dangerous tractors/cager/bikers, and 32m long superyachts

[vtec]

Good post bogan, and I'm just arguing that their needs to be less animosity on the roads, I don't really want to rape your wives after I run those red lights on my bicycle... even if I say I do.

Try getting out of your cars and smelling the roses once in a while.

I'm ultra chilled in my car these days, because I'm just thankful when someone lets me in their lane or gives way to me when they are supposed to. I take nothing for granted.

[MarkH]

The reason why bicycles are so good at running red lights (even more so than motorcycles) is their nimbleness, combined with their small dimensions.

I thought it was because bicycles lack number plates! Motorcycles could easily do the same thing - not just nimble but also able to accelerate through the intersection much faster. But motorcycles have number plates which can be photographed by red light cameras or noted by police officers that the motorcyclist didn't notice.

[sondela]

exactly, soon he shall learn that the bulk of kb'r is about the senseless and pointless arguing, I dont come here for the biking, i get on my bike for the biking :2thumbsup but yes, i take your point, i shall stop now.... i mean soon, i just need closure!

Thats quite possibly the crux of it, what we as individual motorist perceive as considerate, is not what others do, thus generating animosity (think thats the right word) between groups. I shall agree with your logic, but ill still be extra careful round those dangerous cyclist in summer, and those dangerous tractors/cager/bikers, and 32m long superyachts


Haha good! I'm glad you agree :D
and yes, those darn Yachts!

I'd be on my bike for biking too.. but it's raining

[vtec]

I thought it was because bicycles lack number plates! Motorcycles could easily do the same thing - not just nimble but also able to accelerate through the intersection much faster. But motorcycles have number plates which can be photographed by red light cameras or noted by police officers that the motorcyclist didn't notice.

Yeah that's a point, but motorcycles are lacking some vital nimbleness along with kerb jumping prowess required for running reds. Bicycles can go between cars and swap ghost lanes in about two feet of space infront of and beside stationary cars. Some situations will suit a motorbike as much as a bicycle, but bicycles are far superior in many situations. Main issue is definitely the identification. Still I knew some scooter couriers, who ran complete freedom just like the bicycle couriers. Cost them a lot in fines though.

And just a shot at Sondela, we were having a rip roaring argument and you come in here and try to pansy it all up. I suppose it goes well with my anti-animosity ideal. But I love a good debate (read: argument). Gets me pumped.

[Ixion]

One major reason why other road users dislike cyclists is the total unpredictability of the latter. Coupled with their expectation that it is everyone's job, except their own, to keep them safe.

Unlike every other vehicle, cycles have : no indicators; and they NEVER use hand signals; no stop lights ; and ditto no hand signals; no mirrors; and they never look behind or shoulder check; and if you are following one you just KNOW that sometime soon he's going to hang a suicidal hard right turn straight across your bow. And it'll be up to you to somehow avoid him. Followed by shooting straight across the other side of the road directly in front of the oncoming traffic, which of course he ignores on the basis that it's the other guys job to keep him safe. So, the oncoming then has to take violent evasive action - very possibly putting him on a collision course directly toward ME.

So, other traffic naturally always wants to get past them. Once they're behind you, you can relax.

And if they (cyclists) are heading toward you you can guarantee that some at least of them will spread out into your lane forcing you into the ditch to avoid them.

[Ixion]

Hey man, now you're the one cherry picking which laws you think are acceptable and considerate to break. Explain how a bicycle running a red light is inconsiderate? And on the contrary explain how you speeding is considerate?


I should have thought that was obvious. The cyclist running the red light endangers ME. I am put in the position where I must either do the "small animal" thing, and coldbloodedly run him down and kill him. Or, take emergency evasive action, at danger to myself ,praying that the guy in the lane beside me can stop in time when I swing across in front of him to avoid hitting the cyclist.

It is inconsiderate because it is demanding that I endanger myself, and my passengers, and other road users, for his convenience. Just exactly teh same as any other red light runner. Doesn't really get any more inconsiderate than that.

[vtec]

One major reason why other road users dislike cyclists is the total unpredictability of the latter. Coupled with their expectation that it is everyone's job, except their own, to keep them safe.

Unlike every other vehicle, cycles have : no indicators; and they NEVER use hand signals; no stop lights ; and ditto no hand signals; no mirrors; and they never look behind or shoulder check; and if you are following one you just KNOW that sometime soon he's going to hang a suicidal hard right turn straight across your bow. And it'll be up to you to somehow avoid him. Followed by shooting straight across the other side of the road directly in front of the oncoming traffic, which of course he ignores on the basis that it's the other guys job to keep him safe. So, the oncoming then has to take violent evasive action - very possibly putting him on a collision course directly toward ME.

So, other traffic naturally always wants to get past them. Once they're behind you, you can relax.

And if they (cyclists) are heading toward you you can guarantee that some at least of them will spread out into your lane forcing you into the ditch to avoid them.

Ixion you scare me sometimes. Please tell me how many times cyclists have crossed the centerline to come over and force you into a ditch? I have never seen or heard of anything like that before. Also, I have never had a cyclist do a hard suicidal right turn in front of me?

If you are overtaking a vehicle from behind, guess what, it is your responsibility to do so safely, be it a tractor, a car, a motorcycle a bicycle, or even another race motorcycle (with no brake lights) on the race track.

What you have failed to realise, and is the majority of your problem, is you need to relax BEFORE you overtake them, instead of getting your back up as soon as you see them. They are just another possible hazard (and a pretty bloody minor one) amongst, pedestrians, motorcyclists, trucks, train crossings, powerpoles, letterboxes, busses, kerbs, speedbumps etc. Don't focus your traffic frustrations on possibly the most defenseless and inconsequential traffic on the roads is all I'm asking.

If you are "following" one, they always do a head check to register whether or not they can cross over, and if there's cars close behind them they nearly always do an arm indication, I know I do, and I'm possibly one of the worst behaving cyclists to ever roam the streets.

It's almost a case of cognitive dissonance. Lack of understanding of scale of inconvenience and hazard analysis.

[Voltaire]

You guys would have loved Romania in 2004...their primary form of transport out of the cities was the horse and cart....I kid you not.
We counted over 100 in an hour after crossing from Bulgaria.
Our Kombi van was one of the fastest vehicles on the road....that was until I was passing a horse and cart...and in the distance a truck was approaching when suddenly what I think was a Lomborghini overtook me at warp speed and just missed the truck.....it must have been doing over 200kmph.
Anyone who moans about Kiwi driving should go to Eastern Europe to hone their skills.:rolleyes:
In Turkey overtaking a car ( with a motorcycle) is seen as an insult and they will try and get past you on the next downhill.....
Trucks pass into on coming traffic and flash you to get out of the way....being at the lower end of the motoring pecking order its best to comply.
Like Kiwis they are very nice when not behind the wheel.

[vtec]

I should have thought that was obvious. The cyclist running the red light endangers ME. I am put in the position where I must either do the "small animal" thing, and coldbloodedly run him down and kill him. Or, take emergency evasive action, at danger to myself ,praying that the guy in the lane beside me can stop in time when I swing across in front of him to avoid hitting the cyclist.

It is inconsiderate because it is demanding that I endanger myself, and my passengers, and other road users, for his convenience. Just exactly teh same as any other red light runner. Doesn't really get any more inconsiderate than that.

So when did the cyclist running the red change into cyclist running red endangering other road users? I've probably made a couple of mistakes running reds where cars have had to slow or not accelerate as quickly. But it would definitely be far less than 0.5% of the reds that I've run, but never has an accident eventuated, nor has anyone apart from myself ever been in any real danger.

I would rate the number of accidentless red lights that I've run to be on the order of 5 significant figures. In the highest density worst behaved traffic in the country.

Want to know how. I take full responsibility for my own safety, I don't rely on anyone else to do their bit not to hit me. As mentioned once in a blue moon I do have the odd incident where it could have ended badly. My last crash on the bicycle involved a car coming the wrongway out of a one way (specifically fort st), turning right into oncoming traffic to go up emily place while I was turning into fort st to her left (looking at her front on). There were just way too many things she was doing that I didn't expect, but I won't make the same mistake again... notice that I see me crashing in this instance to be a mistake that I made. Even though she was in the wrong, I value my life enough to learn from it and to not allow it to happen to me again. I take full responsibility if I carry momentum into another road user. Car drivers like you need to learn to do the same.

[vtec]

You guys would have loved Romania in 2004...their primary form of transport out of the cities was the horse and cart....I kid you not.
We counted over 100 in an hour after crossing from Bulgaria.
Our Kombi van was one of the fastest vehicles on the road....that was until I was passing a horse and cart...and in the distance a truck was approaching when suddenly what I think was a Lomborghini overtook me at warp speed and just missed the truck.....it must have been doing over 200kmph.
Anyone who moans about Kiwi driving should go to Eastern Europe to hone their skills.:rolleyes:
In Turkey overtaking a car ( with a motorcycle) is seen as an insult and they will try and get past you on the next downhill.....
Trucks pass into on coming traffic and flash you to get out of the way....being at the lower end of the motoring pecking order its best to comply.
Like Kiwis they are very nice when not behind the wheel.

Nice, I just got back from South America, and in reality the hazards here are nothing in comparison, yet I would think the crash rate here between CAR DRIVERS similar.

Lane markings mean nothing, speeding is par for the course, traffic lights are entirely optional, and road surfaces can be like playing a computer game of dodge the pothole, yet the attitude of the drivers protects them from crashing despite the relative speed with which the traffic flows. They don't take any other drivers behaviour for granted (a bit like how you have to behave on a bicycle to survive). They take it into their own responsibility to not hit another vehicle and not let another vehicle hit them. 99% of them can't afford to crash their cars, and I would say insurance rates would be about 1%. Both stats that I just made up but give you some idea of the situation. They also never get worked up or aggravated. Still not a perfect situation.

Living in Melbourne last year i noticed something else on the other end of the scale. The driver behaviour there is better than in Auckland but they are always tooting each other and getting angry about minor things. It seems that the better the road behaviour the worse the tempers.

Maybe if we banned insurance here, there would be more personal responsibility thus dropping the crash rates significantly.

[Ixion]

So when did the cyclist running the red change into cyclist running red endangering other road users? I've probably made a couple of mistakes running reds where cars have had to slow or not accelerate as quickly. But it would definitely be far less than 0.5% of the reds that I've run, but never has an accident eventuated, nor has anyone apart from myself ever been in any real danger.

..

That may be so. But the vast majority of cyclists are another matter. There is an intersection near me where the practice is particularly prevalent (especially at weekends).

One at least totally owes his life to the fact that, when he shot out through the red without even slowing down or looking, I happened to be driving the Alfatoy, with incredibly good brakes, not the Pajero .which takes most of the county to pull up. And there was noone close behind me who might have rearended me . If it had been the Pajero, he'd have been dead. Mrs Ixion was in the car, I wouldn't have endangered her for the sake of an idiot.

I see this happening every week. And I have observed at least one car to car crash caused by a red light running cyclist. Car A swerved to avoid the cyclist , and was hit by car B. Quite badly.

So, yes, cyclist running red lights DO endanger me. And as you don't have a big flag affixed saying "VTEC - I'm OK". I will not assume that every cyclist is you.

[vtec]

That may be so. But the vast majority of cyclists are another matter. There is an intersection near me where the practice is particularly prevalent (especially at weekends).

One at least totally owes his life to the fact that, when he shot out through the red without even slowing down or looking, I happened to be driving the Alfatoy, with incredibly good brakes, not the Pajero .which takes most of the county to pull up. And there was noone close behind me who might have rearended me . If it had been the Pajero, he'd have been dead. Mrs Ixion was in the car, I wouldn't have endangered her for the sake of an idiot.

I see this happening every week. And I have observed at least one car to car crash caused by a red light running cyclist. Car A swerved to avoid the cyclist , and was hit by car B. Quite badly.

So, yes, cyclist running red lights DO endanger me. And as you don't have a big flag affixed saying "VTEC - I'm OK". I will not assume that every cyclist is you.

Fair post, but one cyclist running a red so you had to slam on your brakes does not mean that cyclists shouldn't be on the road. How many times have you had to jump on the brakes in your car or on your motorbike due to other motorvehicles which carried a lot more mass/momentum/energy than said bicycle? I would say the ratio of bicycle brake slams to motorvehicle brake slams would be on the order of 1:100, please give me your ratio. My personal ratio in my car is actually 0:∞ On this information it could be assumed that CARS are unsafe for the road and should be banned. On my bicycle I have to jump on the brakes at least once every 5 to 10 minutes to not hit other road users (including pedestrians j walking), cars failing to give way, busses swinging over and squeezing me into parked cars, other bicycles and low and behold... cars running red lights. Personal responsibility keeps me alive and awesome.

Also, the car to car crash "caused by a bicycle" through different eyes would be interpreted as the cars not able to stop in the clear road ahead of themselves, or that they just 'tarded it up to the max.

And thanks for acknowledging the awesomeness of my traffic navigations skills :lol:

[Ixion]

Ixion you scare me sometimes. Please tell me how many times cyclists have crossed the centerline to come over and force you into a ditch? I have never seen or heard of anything like that before. Also, I have never had a cyclist do a hard suicidal right turn in front of me?



Many times. As in more than single figures, less than hundreds.

Individual cyclists on their own are seldom a big problem. It's when they are in bunches that they do incredibly stupid shit.





If you are overtaking a vehicle from behind, guess what, it is your responsibility to do so safely, be it a tractor, a car, a motorcycle a bicycle, or even another race motorcycle (with no brake lights) on the race track.



Tractors are not 'nimble'. You yourself have touted the nimbleness of the cycle. That same nimbleness which means he may dodge in front of me without warning. Tractors don't. Cars and tractors have indicators, and drivers who in most cases have some idea of the road rules and at least a vague respect for them.




What you have failed to realise, and is the majority of your problem, is you need to relax BEFORE you overtake them, instead of getting your back up as soon as you see them. They are just another possible hazard (and a pretty bloody minor one) amongst, pedestrians, motorcyclists, trucks, train crossings, powerpoles, letterboxes, busses, kerbs, speedbumps etc. Don't focus your traffic frustrations on possibly the most defenseless and inconsequential traffic on the roads is all I'm asking.



See above. Most of the things you specify either signal , stay in one place (when was the last time a letterbox jumped out in front of you?), or at least have some predictability

The only thing more unpredictable on the roads than cyclists are animals.

You complain somewhere of motorists sounding their horns when coming up behind cyclists. Have you considered that they do it for the same reason as a wise driver does it for sheep. To alert the animal that you are there, and encourage it to do whatever it's going to do when startled BEFORE overtaking it. I'd rather sound my horn and have the sheep , or cyclist, do whatever crazy thing it's going to do while I'm still some way behind.



If you are "following" one, they always do a head check to register whether or not they can cross over, and if there's cars close behind them they nearly always do an arm indication, I know I do, and I'm possibly one of the worst behaving cyclists to ever roam the streets.

It's almost a case of cognitive dissonance. Lack of understanding of scale of inconvenience and hazard analysis.

You seem to be living on a different planet to me. I have NEVER seen a cyclist hand signal (not for many years anyway). And I am aware of hand signals because I regularly ride a bike without indicators. So, I hand signal. Cyclists never do.

And unlike cars (which often don't indicate) you can never predict where they are about to go from their road positioning. Because the latter is weird and illogical beyond any comprehension.

And I've never noticed one checking behind. in fact, given their riding position I doubt it's possible.

Motorcyclists emphasise the importance of a high degree of situational awareness. Cyclists on the other hand have zero and seem to think it irrelevant to them.

I must say, though , that there is ONE cyclist that I see regularly, an old Chinaman, who is very good. Predictable, safe riding. The exception that proves the rule.

[Kickaha]

It's when they are in bunches that they do incredibly stupid shit.

Have we gone back to talking about KB group rides?

[vtec]

Many times. As in more than single figures, less than hundreds.

Individual cyclists on their own are seldom a big problem. It's when they are in bunches that they do incredibly stupid shit.

When in a big bunch don't you think they deserve more consideration, just because you are bigger doesn't mean you deserve more consideration, I think if you are more numerous you deserve more consideration. It's difficult to get a pack of bicycles around together as a group without dominating a lane, the inconvenience to car drivers is rare and minor.


Tractors are not 'nimble'. You yourself have touted the nimbleness of the cycle. That same nimbleness which means he may dodge in front of me without warning. Tractors don't. Cars and tractors have indicators, and drivers who in most cases have some idea of the road rules and at least a vague respect for them.
Just because a vehicle has indicators doesn't mean they get used, also nimbleness is an advantage to avoid danger also a bicycle is much easier to overtake safely than a tractor, if you think the bicycle's going to dodge in front of you then good, you are an aware road user and will hopefully allow for such transgressions as a fatality is a far more severe consequence than being forced to slow to allow for the possibility of the failings of other road users. Cyclists are aware of the road rules I believe just less suitable for the road rules thats all. Come round a blind corner too fast and hit that tractor going 20kph and we'll see if it posed more of a threat to your safety than a bicycle going 30,40,50kph in the same direction as you... both crashes however would be totally YOUR FAULT. If a cyclist is hit while not following a road rules then they are in the wrong, and I have no sympathy, if you are going to break the rules you have to do it so you are not going to get messed up. But driving so you can't avoid all incidents that's totally morally corrupt.


See above. Most of the things you specify either signal , stay in one place (when was the last time a letterbox jumped out in front of you?), or at least have some predictability
Actually it was the minority, train crossings was meant to include the arms that come down and the trains that cross them along with the rail lines that are like ice and bumpy when wet. All hazards that could possibly inconvenience you and some that provide danger all that you have to DEAL WITH.

The only thing more unpredictable on the roads than cyclists are animals.
I kindly disagree, I would say taxi's and pedestrians

You complain somewhere of motorists sounding their horns when coming up behind cyclists.Have you considered that they do it for the same reason as a wise driver does it for sheep. To alert the animal that you are there, and encourage it to do whatever it's going to do when startled BEFORE overtaking it. I'd rather sound my horn and have the sheep , or cyclist, do whatever crazy thing it's going to do while I'm still some way behind.
now you're just making stuff up. I never said don't toot a cyclist. you can give them a fright though, but that's not the end of the world... better than hitting them. Although I'm firmly in the mindset if you've got time to toot you've got time to give them space. Tooting is done for selfish reasons, either for self amusement, or to make sure you don't have to slow down to safely overtake a cyclist. I'm sure there's the odd situation where a toot is the easier option, but you can't rely on it to make somebody stop doing something dangerous. I've only ever had to toot cars trying to squeeze me out of my lane, and I've thought about it, and realised it's purely selfish because I don't want to fall back and let them in because they aren't doing the manoeuvre "properly".


You seem to be living on a different planet to me. I have NEVER seen a cyclist hand signal (not for many years anyway). And I am aware of hand signals because I regularly ride a bike without indicators. So, I hand signal. Cyclists never do. I signal, I wave a thankyou when someone merely gives way to me, I turn around and look drivers right in the eye if I feel I need to. Groups are a different animal, they are far more visible and ungainly and should be given due consideration as they far outnumber you, so any minor inconvenience to your commute should be looked on as the many outweighing the few.

And unlike cars (which often don't indicate) you can never predict where they are about to go from their road positioning. Because the latter is weird and illogical beyond any comprehension.
Never trust your prediction of what a car is going to do. There are so many dynamics to riding a bicycle so you are not monstered, so that you are visible, so that you are safe, so that you are PREDICTABLE, and you are right this is a very important part of cycle safety, however it only comes with experience... just like driver and rider safety, not all cyclists are equal. It's not PC to vent on different races or sexes driving abilities so you've chosen the PC target of bicycles.

And I've never noticed one checking behind. in fact, given their riding position I doubt it's possible.
I can never tell if you are talking about single bikes or groups, as there is a massive difference as to how you have to ride to do it safely. On any bicycle you can do a head check when coming up to an intersection where you might be changing your line or lanes, if they don't I'll agree they're stupid, however I assume you are getting annoyed with having them not acknowledge you when you want to pass them on a straight, this is your responsibility for the very good reason that you hold ALL the power.

Motorcyclists emphasise the importance of a high degree of situational awareness. Cyclists on the other hand have zero and seem to think it irrelevant to them.
There's a very good reason why a bicycle might pretend they don't know you are there, that's to make you take responsibility for not rear ending them. If you acknowledge a car behind you trying to overtake when on a bicycle, usually they will then not take full responsibility for their overtaking manoeuvre. Just like 99% of pedestrians when they are crossing the road will not look the driver of the cars in the eye, it may annoy hell out of you but it actually increases the likelihood that you won't rush them to make them jump out of the way. I find pedestrians annoying too, but I have some perspective as a pedestrian and I understand their behaviour, people just need to try on other perspectives. Furthermore the it's extremely important on a bicycle to focus in the forward 180degree range as hazards are so much more severe on bicycles, the effects of glass and potholes, and the general invisibility of oncoming bicycles to the majority of humanity, it's mostly a subconscious psychological risk analysis failing. You'd be amazed how good bicycle couriers get at using their peripheral vision, survival too number one, number 2 is hearing, so you are generally in the dark about their situational awareness.

I must say, though , that there is ONE cyclist that I see regularly, an old Chinaman, who is very good. Predictable, safe riding. The exception that proves the rule.
I'll have to get an onboard camera on my bicycle next time I do some couriering, would knock your socks off. I've always wanted to do that. I haven't seen really any bicycles that pose a danger through unpredictable riding. And even if they were, they are going slow enough that you should be able to react and DEAL WITH IT just like you would any other retarded road user.
10 chars... points in red
Actually just thought of one instant the other day, kid crossing the road quickly on his bike, he did it perfectly safely, but gave me a fright, now I assume it's these scenarios that are pissing people off. Just like I got blasted by a loud exhaust a couple of days ago in my car by a lane-splitting bike, that's what makes people declare war on different segments of society, it's that they were possibly disturbed by something be it harmful or not. I had to stop myself and rationalise that the motorcycle wasn't doing anything harmful past giving me a fright to stop my annoyance. And I'm a lane splitter from 'Nam. What chance does the average closed minded NZ'er have?

[750duc]

I don't really want to rape your wives

Since you drive a honda ya probably dont have much interest in women at all......:lol:

[Qkkid]

.......when retarded motorcyclists treat public roads as though they're racetracks?

:clap:Well speak of the devil :lol:
:rolleyes: You know he loves you Beyond:cool:

[beyond]

:clap:Well speak of the devil :lol:
:rolleyes: You know he loves you Beyond:cool:

LOL Deep down I'm sure he does :)

[vtec]

It should also be noted that bicycle couriers pay a rather fat proportion of their earnings on ACC. On the order of thousands of dollars per year. The highest earning bicycle courier that I know of was probably paying about $5,000 to ACC per year. Then you've got to pay taxes and feed yourself, (you eat 3 to 4 times as much as an ordinary person when you work as a bicycle courier). So at least I've been paying my way on ACC.

In future I will probably register my car but refuse to register my motorcycle.