Fork emulators?

[sil3nt]

I am looking at upgrading the front suspension on the little ninja as it needs it quite badly. Apparently vavle emulators are the bees knees although they appear rather complicated to install for a simpleton like myself.

If it took it in to a shop are they going to know how to install them or are they not commonly used in NZ? The major concern on the install is drilling extra holes in the damper rod which i can not do myself. I am also wondering whether a bike shop would be able to do this or if i need to take it somewhere else to get it done properly.

Anyone in the business know how to do this or know anyone that can?

I have full step by step instructions on how to do it from here (http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Installing_emulators_and_springs) just lacking tools/balls

[vifferman]

No offense intended but is it worth it? Are you going to be keeping the bike for a goodly while?
The best solution is to get CKT to do it, but it's not cheap. You can do the work yourself, but unless you have the expertise (which you've already noted you don't) and the data you need to set it up correctly, and the equipemnet to check that all your internals are true and in good nick, you're going to end up with a suboptimal result.

I upgraded my rear shock myself, and replaced the fork springs and oil, and even though I could have done the emulators myself (I had access to the data, and could source the bits required at a reasonable price), I opted to get CKT to do the work.
Twice.
Some of my data was wrong, so I had fitted the wrong springs. The small amount of coin I saved initially ($250 on the shock, and maybe $100-$150 on the first fork work I did) was gobbled up in short order.

While the bike was definitely MUCH better than it had been before I got CKT involved, I think the money I sent their way was worth it, and wished I'd just got them to do the whole lot.

[sil3nt]

Is it worth it? I think so! Parts will come to around $500NZD maybe a little more and i have decided not too upgrade early and stick with this bike for awhile yet. So i am not too worried about it being a waste of time/money.

I really can't go too wrong doing it myself. The stock suspension on this bike is utter shit. The stock springs are .440 kg/mm and every spring rate calculator out there says i need at least .60 kg/mm (although i can only get .585 (ex500) or .70 (new from sonic). I only weigh 70 kg so that further shows how crap the stock springs are as heavier riders have it worse off than me.

I do plan on doing the rear shock myself as there are many options from other bikes that bolt straight in (even the new ninjas rear shock).

[CookMySock]

I'm in the same position as you.. want to do the same mod, but feeling unsure. If you want a hand, gizzus a shout. Can bring tools etc.

Steve

[slofox]

Boyds did mine for me. They talked to RT (Crown Kiwi Tech) in Taranaki about the job (he supplied the emulators) and followed his advice. I thought it was well worth the effort myself.

(They're "Cartridge" Emulators btw...)

[Robert Taylor]

make sure they are Race Tech brand emulators.Their construction is solid and long lasting, the poppett springs dont sack out.

[sil3nt]

make sure they are Race Tech brand emulators.Their construction is solid and long lasting, the poppett springs dont sack out.Yep was going to try and order them straight off the site as i couldn't find anyone in NZ that did it. But their online shop isn't working and i now see that you supply them (although a little more expensive than direct from them :whistle:)

[Robert Taylor]

Yep was going to try and order them straight off the site as i couldn't find anyone in NZ that did it. But their online shop isn't working and i now see that you supply them (although a little more expensive than direct from them :whistle:)

GST inclusive and local backup...............

[Squiggles]

Slyer has some on his also ancient GPX

[sil3nt]

GST inclusive and local backup...............Yeah i know :bleh:

Did Slyer get them put on or did he buy the bike with them on?

I guess i should go talk to the local dealer and see if they can do it.

[NDORFN]

I do plan on doing the rear shock myself as there are many options from other bikes that bolt straight in (even the new ninjas rear shock).

You wanna buy one? Did you get that lense on Friday?

[sil3nt]

You wanna buy one? Did you get that lense on Friday?Yeah i got the lense thanks! Had to find a couple of odd screws lying around to fit it on as the others had fallen out. Whats the shock your selling just the standard GPX one? That wouldn't be much of an upgrade :bleh: Not too worried about the rear suspension for now its the front that feels like shit!

[Squiggles]

PM Slyer... he put em in himself, god knows what he's got as a rear shock now

[The Stranger]

I'm in the same position as you.. want to do the same mod, but feeling unsure. If you want a hand, gizzus a shout. Can bring tools etc.

Steve

The blind leading the blind and you get to sort the fuck ups on someone else’s bike first.
How convenient, an opportunity not to be missed indeed.

[sil3nt]

The blind leading the blind and you get to sort the fuck ups on someone else’s bike first.
How convenient, an opportunity not to be missed indeed.Thanks for your help :niceone:


PM Slyer... he put em in himself, god knows what he's got as a rear shock nowHave done thanks :woohoo:

[CookMySock]

The blind leading the blind and you get to sort the fuck ups on someone else’s bike first.
How convenient, an opportunity not to be missed indeed.Nope, the offer to travel four hours and offer support (now withdrawn) was a genuine one. Even if I got to stand in someones workshop and watch would have been useful to me, and despite what you insinuate, I can be a useful person to have in the workshop.

Always a caustic derogatory remark from you, particularly toward those who are actually trying to achieve something. Take a look back through your own threads and notice that you don't actually do anything bike-related except take every opportunity to belittle others who are. It's a tragic and sad reflection on your angry life, isn't it?

Steve

[The Stranger]

Always a caustic derogatory remark from you, particularly toward those who are actually trying to achieve something. Take a look back through your own threads and notice that you don't actually do anything bike-related except take every opportunity to belittle others who are. It's a tragic and sad reflection on your angry life, isn't it?

Steve

Damn, I'm so transparent, a sad angry selfish arsehole. I should be ashamed of myself - yet strangely I feel no remorse. Because post like that help make my miserable existence worthwhile as I know I'm making a positive difference in someone's life.

[Pussy]

Fitting cartridge emulators ISN'T just a matter of throwing them in and forgetting about them. There is a lot more to it than meets the eye. Centering them properly, correct centistoke rating oil to achieve decent rebound characteristics etc. It's very possible to make the forks worse than they started out by incorrectly fitting emulators.
Send them to CKT and have the job done properly

[sil3nt]

Such a happy bunch around here aren't we :girlfight: :grouphug:

I'll talk to some people see what it will cost to get it done then probably ignore everyones advice and fuck it up myself :)

Thanks for all the help ladies! :woohoo:

[gatch]

Mr robert taylor if you are still watching this thread.. How do you machine the forks to ensure the emulators are concentric to the tubes ?

[The Stranger]

then probably ignore everyones advice and fuck it up myself :)


Thank you. This is precisely the reason I shit stir rather than offer advice.

The correct answer of course is that your bike has the worst suspension ever put on a production motorcycle and the best way out of this is to sell it to some other poor unsuspecting schmuck.
But hey, I'm sure you enjoy pissing into the wind and who knows, DB is a helpful chap, perhaps he could hold it for you whilst you do.

[davebullet]

Is it worthwhile? I'd contact Robert Taylor / PM him directly and ask him. Of all of us, he'd be the best person to tell you.. also tell you what else you need to consider (eg. his experience of how "true" the stock parks etc... are for the emulators to do their job properly).

I'm looking at the Ricor Intiminators myself. The don't make them for the Ninja / 250s... but the advantage is they don't need damper rod hole drilling.

Whether this works in practice, whether they have the longevity of the Race Techs... etc... who knows.

[davebullet]

Fitting cartridge emulators ISN'T just a matter of throwing them in and forgetting about them. There is a lot more to it than meets the eye. Centering them properly, correct centistoke rating oil to achieve decent rebound characteristics etc. It's very possible to make the forks worse than they started out by incorrectly fitting emulators.
Send them to CKT and have the job done properly

Good point... if you don't know what you are doing (I'm in the same boat :laugh: ) then what is the odds you will do it properly?

[Robert Taylor]

Mr robert taylor if you are still watching this thread.. How do you machine the forks to ensure the emulators are concentric to the tubes ?

Partly that is how I make a living....

[Robert Taylor]

Is it worthwhile? I'd contact Robert Taylor / PM him directly and ask him. Of all of us, he'd be the best person to tell you.. also tell you what else you need to consider (eg. his experience of how "true" the stock parks etc... are for the emulators to do their job properly).

I'm looking at the Ricor Intiminators myself. The don't make them for the Ninja / 250s... but the advantage is they don't need damper rod hole drilling.

Whether this works in practice, whether they have the longevity of the Race Techs... etc... who knows.

How then do Ricor then get around the standard damping rod holes still offering a flow restriction at abrupt bump velocities?

[vifferman]

How then do Ricor then get around the standard damping rod holes still offering a flow restriction at abrupt bump velocities?
Oooh! Oooh!!
I love riddles. :clap:
Wait... this is one of the rhododendrons? Carborundums?

Conundrums - that's it. One of the lesser known members of the percussion family. :yes:

[davebullet]

How then do Ricor then get around the standard damping rod holes still offering a flow restriction at abrupt bump velocities?

The only answer they seem to have is low viscosity oil (5w) - make it flow through the smaller holes quicker. I'm sure this would cause problems in other aspects. Is there such as term as "over rebounding " etc... Sorry I am a suspension newbie.

[vifferman]

The only answer they seem to have is low viscosity oil (5w) - make it flow through the smaller holes quicker. I'm sure this would cause problems in other aspects. Is there such as term as "over rebounding " etc... Sorry I am a suspension newbie.
Oh - you're talking about snake oil, which is actually in contravention of the Trades Description Act, as it's actually BabyLesbianAfghaniFurSealPenguinWhaleOil.

But I don't think that's the answer.
No. "EHHH!!" WorngA.
If it was, Dr Taylor would've known that, as he sells it under the Ohlins brand, for around $51/litre.
Unless, of course, it was one of those hypothetical questions, posed by the goodly Dr Taylor just to see if we were paying proper attention...

[Pussy]

Is there such as term as "over rebounding " etc... Sorry I am a suspension newbie.

Yes there is! If the rebound speed is too slow, the forks end up "packing down" over a series of bumps. Can lead to over steer and the front tucking... and generally feels like shite.
Although it adds about $320.00 or so to the cost, I would recommend using Traxxion Dynamics modified damper rods in conjunction with Racetech emulators... they are machined items (read: made to close tolerances), and quite honestly, when set up correctly, make the SV650 forks perform VERY nicely. Much better than modifying the stock jobbies

[slofox]

your bike has the worst suspension ever put on a production motorcycle ...

I thought that was the SV suspension..? You telling me that I've been rooked? Damn!

[davebullet]

If it was, Dr Taylor would've known that, as he sells it under the Ohlins brand, for around $51/litre.

Mr. Riccor (or whatever his name is) on svrider.com says just to buy any 5w fork oil... his own oil is not required. He says that to overseas customers to minimise freight costs and says he doesn't make much on the oil anyway.

He didn't sound like he was pushing his product and spoke favourably of the RT emulators as well. He seems decent enough.

[Pussy]

Don't fall in to that trap, Dave.
The flow rates of "5 weight" oil differs HEAPS over different brands.
Centistoke rating is the leveller

[sil3nt]

I thought that was the SV suspension..? You telling me that I've been rooked? Damn!I should let you ride the GPX. The front end is so bad im surprised they were allowed to sell it :bleh: My tyres don't help either.

If i have an entire forum of GPX owners telling me its an awesome mod and Slyer telling me the same i think its worthwile :2thumbsup

Whether i can afford the mod is another question :whistle:

[Robert Taylor]

The only answer they seem to have is low viscosity oil (5w) - make it flow through the smaller holes quicker. I'm sure this would cause problems in other aspects. Is there such as term as "over rebounding " etc... Sorry I am a suspension newbie.

At higher velocities through relatively large orifices the viscosity of the oil has rather less effect, viscosity is much more important when oil is made to pass through small and restrictive orifices.

Do you have a link to these guys? I pride myself on being totally averse to BS. If indeed there is merit in their product I will tell you so. But at the moment its a case of ''caveat emptor''.

[Robert Taylor]

The only answer they seem to have is low viscosity oil (5w) - make it flow through the smaller holes quicker. I'm sure this would cause problems in other aspects. Is there such as term as "over rebounding " etc... Sorry I am a suspension newbie.

Over rebounding is one of the single biggest causes of 'unexplained'' crashes.

[Robert Taylor]

Mr. Riccor (or whatever his name is) on svrider.com says just to buy any 5w fork oil... his own oil is not required. He says that to overseas customers to minimise freight costs and says he doesn't make much on the oil anyway.

He didn't sound like he was pushing his product and spoke favourably of the RT emulators as well. He seems decent enough.

Not all ''5 weight'' oils are the same and if that is Mr Ricors total understanding of suspension oil Id be starting to get VERY concerned. Plus be wary of American hype...how many people have been conned with the latest and greatest exercise machines over the years.......?
5 weight etc is an SAE ( motor oil ) rating and frankly is very misleading. For example 5 weight Silkolene has the same flow rate through a fixed size orifice at the same temperature as 10 weight Maxima. Centistroke rating at 40 degrees C is the only true flow rate indicator, the very first prerequisite for at least matching of suspension fluids. Sadly most suppliers of suspension oil do not include that on the bottle label and jolly well should.....

[Robert Taylor]

I should let you ride the GPX. The front end is so bad im surprised they were allowed to sell it :bleh: My tyres don't help either.

If i have an entire forum of GPX owners telling me its an awesome mod and Slyer telling me the same i think its worthwile :2thumbsup

Whether i can afford the mod is another question :whistle:

Ditto for GN250, SV650 and all low cost commuter and trail bikes etc

[Pussy]

Centistroke.

It's "centistoke"!

You're welcome! :)

[Robert Taylor]

It's "centistoke"!

You're welcome! :)

Toss you for it!!!!

[cs363]

Over rebounding is one of the single biggest causes of 'unexplained'' crashes.

And now explained. So much for the mysteries of motorcycling. Party pooper! :bleh:


jolly well should.....

That's enough of that, suspension is a serious business - or so you would have us believe.


Toss you for it!!!!

I always wondered why Pussy spends so much time in your workshop, all this time I thought he'd become addicted to your crap coffee and right wing propaganda.
Just shows, you learn something every day.... :whistle:

[davebullet]

Robert / pussy,

Thanks for the information. I design loudspeakers as a hobby, and it amazes me how many newbies think they can just buy some drivers (speaker cones), chuck them in a box with an off the shelf passive crossover and think they are going to get something nice sounding.

So I put myself in the same boat when it comes to suspension.

Robert,

Here is the Ricor site link to the SV650 specific product page. There are some FAQ pages on the left hand menubar where Ricor provides their approach / beliefs:
http://store.ricorshocks.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=32

Here is the ricor vendor sub-forum on svrider:
http://forum.svrider.com/forumdisplay.php?f=67

Here is a specific post on the rebound and damping properties:
http://forum.svrider.com/showthread.php?t=100825

(PS: I find it funny how people use "dampening" and not damping. Do you really want wet shocks or shocks that correctly respond to surface variability :laugh: )

[gatch]

Partly that is how I make a living....

Fair enough. Not trying to pinch your secrets, just curious..

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

Not all ''5 weight'' oils are the same and if that is Mr Ricors total understanding of suspension oil Id be starting to get VERY concerned. Plus be wary of American hype...how many people have been conned with the latest and greatest exercise machines over the years.......?
5 weight etc is an SAE ( motor oil ) rating and frankly is very misleading. For example 5 weight Silkolene has the same flow rate through a fixed size orifice at the same temperature as 10 weight Maxima. Centistroke rating at 40 degrees C is the only true flow rate indicator, the very first prerequisite for at least matching of suspension fluids. Sadly most suppliers of suspension oil do not include that on the bottle label and jolly well should.....

Here is a chart with some of the popular brands comparing their oil rating in CsT @ 40 degrees.

[vifferman]

Here is a chart with some of the popular brands comparing their oil rating in CsT @ 40 degrees.
It's got LOTS of oils on it, but it's not very comprehensive, is it, huh?!?
There's no BabyLesbianAfghaniFurSealPenguinWhale oil, is there?
WTF?!?

[davebullet]

Thanks for the chart.

The AMSOil recommended with the Intiminators looks like the "Shock Therapy Light"
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/stl.aspx

Which has a Centistoke rating of 15.7 (as per the chart). The above page lists all the other technical factors.

I'm probably going to get a pair, since I now know what oil to source. At USD$200 it isn't cheap, but I'm willing to throw that sort of money at it to see if it makes any difference. The bike isn't worth it to me to throw $1000+ worth of suspension work at it... but time will tell.

I'll report back in due course with (of course) a subjective comparison. I will be quite critical. I'm secretly skeptical as all of the reviews I've read are glowing. However, some people who have had RaceTech GV emulators also fitted say they are comparable. Of course this is comparing apples with oranges when you are talking about different roads (USA vs. NZ) and probably race vs. road usage, unknown spring rates, unknown rider weight, unknown other mods etc.. etc...

A friend who fitted them to his KLR650 is quite happy with what they've done to improve the ride.

[NordieBoy]

I'm probably going to get a pair, since I now know what oil to source. At USD$200 it isn't cheap, but I'm willing to throw that sort of money at it to see if it makes any difference. The bike isn't worth it to me to throw $1000+ worth of suspension work at it... but time will tell.

I like them a lot.
I tried to get some for the XR too but they didn't have any the right diameter :(

[KS34]

I'm probably going to get a pair, since I now know what oil to source. At USD$200 it isn't cheap, but I'm willing to throw that sort of money at it to see if it makes any difference. The bike isn't worth it to me to throw $1000+ worth of suspension work at it... but time will tell.



I'm not even sure why I'm wading into this one but here goes!

It seems a bit odd that you are considering something quite unknown when money is obviously an important factor. calculate what it will cost you to buy the stuff in the US and the frieght etc etc. I'm estimating you would be close to $400nz. Why not check LOCAL suppliers of suspension services to see if anything is possible with the money you can spend. instead of going off shore to spend your money which chances are you wont be happy with, then to your embarrassment having to go to your LOCAL suspension supplier to spend more money to get a result you could of had LOCALLY in the first place for less money. Remember "you only know the best you have riden" or something like that. Also dont go to CKT they are the best we have in NZ, with affordable options and great on going backup and service, it just sounds too much like a good idea for you.

[PeeJay]

I'm not even sure why I'm wading into this one but here goes!

It seems a bit odd that you are considering something quite unknown when money is obviously an important factor. calculate what it will cost you to buy the stuff in the US and the frieght etc etc. I'm estimating you would be close to $400nz. Why not check LOCAL suppliers of suspension services to see if anything is possible with the money you can spend. instead of going off shore to spend your money which chances are you wont be happy with, then to your embarrassment having to go to your LOCAL suspension supplier to spend more money to get a result you could of had LOCALLY in the first place for less money. Remember "you only know the best you have riden" or something like that. Also dont go to CKT they are the best we have in NZ, with affordable options and great on going backup and service, it just sounds too much like a good idea for you.

yep, the last thing we need in NZ is people willing to try something different.
Next thing you know people will be thinking for themselves without prior approval.

[Robert Taylor]

Here is a chart with some of the popular brands comparing their oil rating in CsT @ 40 degrees.

That chart is already out of date with at least respect to Ohlins oil and it shouldnt be taken as gospel. There has been a lot of reformualtion and further improvement of this oil range and it is ongoing.
Certainly sae ratings for suspension oil is a load of bollocks.

[davebullet]

I'm not even sure why I'm wading into this one but here goes!

It seems a bit odd that you are considering something quite unknown when money is obviously an important factor. calculate what it will cost you to buy the stuff in the US and the frieght etc etc. I'm estimating you would be close to $400nz. Why not check LOCAL suppliers of suspension services to see if anything is possible with the money you can spend. instead of going off shore to spend your money which chances are you wont be happy with, then to your embarrassment having to go to your LOCAL suspension supplier to spend more money to get a result you could of had LOCALLY in the first place for less money. Remember "you only know the best you have riden" or something like that. Also dont go to CKT they are the best we have in NZ, with affordable options and great on going backup and service, it just sounds too much like a good idea for you.

I have no doubt if I sent my bike up to Robert, I'd get fantastic service and the right advice. Maybe another factor here is "tinkering". I like to tinker and totally accept the fact that if it doesn't give me bang for buck - it is all my fault and no-one else.

The cost will be approx NZD$320 incl. shipping (given our great USD exchange rate at the moment). Money is always a factor, but when something is sub NZD$500 - I'll give it a go. I have a friend who has fitted them and is willing to give me a hand. To be fair, I never priced up RT emulators plus fitting. I'm also assuming here my stock shocks are defect free (well - defect free as far as within manufacturer tolerances), but the same problem would be found out / discovered with other fitments I'm sure. The main problem is the "no going back" if I trim the spring spacer the 15mm or so to restore the preload range on the stock shocks (allowing for the 15mm taken up by the intiminators when fitted).

I agree with you "you only know the best you have riden". I haven't ridden anything better! This actually works in my favour. Why? I don't have high expectations, therefore any improvement will be appreciated. I do not have the knowledge or expectation to compare it with a full on, custom configured Ohlins suspended bike (or anything inbetween).

Cheers.

[Robert Taylor]

yep, the last thing we need in NZ is people willing to try something different.
Next thing you know people will be thinking for themselves without prior approval.

But they do need to think hard! Believe it or not there are experts in many industries that will give you a straight up no BS answer.

With respect to the Intiminator I am not fooled by the all too typical US hype. The system does have a lot of merit because shim stacks are excellent at modulating oil flow at varying velocities and having an effective sealing system removes another major drawback of such forks. BUT, anyone who understands oil flow through a damper rod fork knows that it has to flow through fixed holes in the bottom of the damper rod itself. On the SV those holes might just be big enough to not present too great a restriction at high oil flow rates required to absorb nasty abrupt bumps.

Such bumps served up with a much higher percentage of regularity on NZ roads and tracks than in the US.

If later on Ricor start making these for other models of bikes with damper rod forks they will have to reccommend oversizing of the fixed damper rod holes. On a lot of bikes these holes are very restrictive. Until you remove the major restriction out of the equation you will not get a full result.

[warewolf]

How then do Ricor then get around the standard damping rod holes still offering a flow restriction at abrupt bump velocities?

The only answer they seem to have is low viscosity oil (5w) - make it flow through the smaller holes quicker. I'm sure this would cause problems in other aspects.Reducing the oil weight by 5W reduces the problems with orifice limitation, and since the package includes re-valving, they can compensate for other issues that may arise - although in each case, not completely.

I've ridden Nordieboy's Intiminator-equipped DR650 and it was mighty impressive... for a damper rod fork. (I've had RT GVEs in my Triumph damper rod forks so are somewhat familiar with them.) Braking downhill over big bumps was very good, highlighting their anti-dive performance. Lots of suspension travel left to soak up the bump smoothly.

However, the biggest upset I noticed was over a complex sequence of bumps, it lost the plot and chattered. The same stuff that my cartridge fork KTM handled with comparative aplomb. So perhaps what I was noticing was caused by orifice limitation, still present although reduced?

[Robert Taylor]

Reducing the oil weight by 5W reduces the problems with orifice limitation, and since the package includes re-valving, they can compensate for other issues that may arise - although in each case, not completely.

I've ridden Nordieboy's Intiminator-equipped DR650 and it was mighty impressive... for a damper rod fork. (I've had RT GVEs in my Triumph damper rod forks so are somewhat familiar with them.) Braking downhill over big bumps was very good, highlighting their anti-dive performance. Lots of suspension travel left to soak up the bump smoothly.

However, the biggest upset I noticed was over a complex sequence of bumps, it lost the plot and chattered. The same stuff that my cartridge fork KTM handled with comparative aplomb. So perhaps what I was noticing was caused by orifice limitation, still present although reduced?

Orifice limitation, I believe so yes

[Robert Taylor]

Reducing the oil weight by 5W reduces the problems with orifice limitation, and since the package includes re-valving, they can compensate for other issues that may arise - although in each case, not completely.

I've ridden Nordieboy's Intiminator-equipped DR650 and it was mighty impressive... for a damper rod fork. (I've had RT GVEs in my Triumph damper rod forks so are somewhat familiar with them.) Braking downhill over big bumps was very good, highlighting their anti-dive performance. Lots of suspension travel left to soak up the bump smoothly.

However, the biggest upset I noticed was over a complex sequence of bumps, it lost the plot and chattered. The same stuff that my cartridge fork KTM handled with comparative aplomb. So perhaps what I was noticing was caused by orifice limitation, still present although reduced?

The important point also is that the standard damper rod ports in the DR are not the smallest on the block so they can just get away with it. There are many damper rods that have very small ports and therefore without modification Intimators will NOT work. The Yanks are certainly the worst people on the planet when it comes to hype....

[warewolf]

Yeah. What do they do when a bike has 5W standard, is there a 0W?? :laugh:

I understand they wanted the install as simple as possible. IIRC some of the material I skimmed said ppl were put off GVEs due to having to disassemble the forks and drill the damper rods. I suspect they will have to go down that route with some applications.

For the specific application of the DR650, they really did transform the front end and I would have to say they are worthwhile. Don't know that GVEs would achieve the same thing - haven't ridden one to know.

[davebullet]

I suppose what drew me to the Intiminators was they have a specific product and reference to the SV650. I still haven't fitted them (time poor as well) but will report back.

I totally expect the Intiminators to leave some undesirable characteristics. I may still not be happy with any improvements they offer. We'll see.

[RicorSHX]

Robert / pussy,

Thanks for the information. I design loudspeakers as a hobby, and it amazes me how many newbies think they can just buy some drivers (speaker cones), chuck them in a box with an off the shelf passive crossover and think they are going to get something nice sounding.

So I put myself in the same boat when it comes to suspension.

Robert,

Here is the Ricor site link to the SV650 specific product page. There are some FAQ pages on the left hand menubar where Ricor provides their approach / beliefs:
http://store.ricorshocks.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=32

Here is the ricor vendor sub-forum on svrider:
http://forum.svrider.com/forumdisplay.php?f=67

Here is a specific post on the rebound and damping properties:
http://forum.svrider.com/showthread.php?t=100825

(PS: I find it funny how people use "dampening" and not damping. Do you really want wet shocks or shocks that correctly respond to surface variability :laugh: )

We wanted to get the Ninja 250 buzz going so we sent a set of Ricor inertia valve inserts to a California rider who had just posted about the Emulators she installed and liked.

This email was sent to us after her day at the track:

Wow. I had a great day. The bike handled beautifully. The front end was much smoother and helped the rear shock work better. She didn’t dive at all. My bike was smoother in setting up so I could enter the corners much faster. The rebound was smooth as well. They are really great. Even with the RT emulators and 10 weight oil she still dove on braking. I prefer them to the Race Tech emulators 10 to 1, and compared with the stock shocks they are 100% better. I’m going to take her out on some twisties up Hwy 33 this week so I’ll let you know how she handles on the street.

Let me know if you want me to do a more complete write-up. I’ll be happy to post to my Ninja and other bike sites. So…when are you going to have a shock ready for the little ninjas??

Thanks again to you and Brian(?),

Elizabeth Rodeno

[F5 Dave]

Yeah. What do they do when a bike has 5W standard, is there a 0W?? :laugh:
. . .
um, Water?:whistle:

[NordieBoy]

We wanted to get the Ninja 250 buzz going so we sent a set of Ricor inertia valve inserts to a California rider who had just posted about the Emulators she installed and liked.

Right.

Now get back to work on the DR rear shock :D

I've done my review and have a pair of Vibranators on the way...
I want to kill the DR650 buzz :pinch:


:woohoo:

[Robert Taylor]

We wanted to get the Ninja 250 buzz going so we sent a set of Ricor inertia valve inserts to a California rider who had just posted about the Emulators she installed and liked.

This email was sent to us after her day at the track:

Wow. I had a great day. The bike handled beautifully. The front end was much smoother and helped the rear shock work better. She didn’t dive at all. My bike was smoother in setting up so I could enter the corners much faster. The rebound was smooth as well. They are really great. Even with the RT emulators and 10 weight oil she still dove on braking. I prefer them to the Race Tech emulators 10 to 1, and compared with the stock shocks they are 100% better. I’m going to take her out on some twisties up Hwy 33 this week so I’ll let you know how she handles on the street.

Let me know if you want me to do a more complete write-up. I’ll be happy to post to my Ninja and other bike sites. So…when are you going to have a shock ready for the little ninjas??

Thanks again to you and Brian(?),

Elizabeth Rodeno

We modify emulators specifically for road race use to much more effectively modulate brake dive speed. There is as much in careful pre-prep and attention to detail as anything.
I think there needs to be a much wider sampling rate of Intimators ( particularly with more challenging installations ) before a blanket opinion is formed.Im not doubting they have serious merit, its just too easy to get carried away with all the hype to then find that maybe they havent got all bases covered.

[davebullet]

We modify emulators specifically for road race use to much more effectively modulate brake dive speed. There is as much in careful pre-prep and attention to detail as anything.
I think there needs to be a much wider sampling rate of Intimators ( particularly with more challenging installations ) before a blanket opinion is formed.Im not doubting they have serious merit, its just too easy to get carried away with all the hype to then find that maybe they havent got all bases covered.

I agree the only objectivity is using like for like components when only the emulators differ and a suspension dyno is used to obtain measurements allowing comparison between compression and rebound damping properties.

I would assume Brian at Ricor uses some objective measurement techniques, otherwise the product was hit and miss and improvements also likely to be the same.

When I install them, I'll only be able to subjectively state how they help, with laymans terms and all open to interpretation. Unfortunately, those are the only tools at my disposal.

[Padmei]

I've just come across this thread & find it very interesting. I have purchased & installed a set of intimators for my 08 KLR650. Those more experienced riders I've ridden with that have intimators rate them highly however I can't seem to get mine going.

I have posted a lil experiment on KLR650net. Please read with a belly full of happiness. http://www.klr650.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72228

I have used castrol5w ISO15 in the forks however I think if anything the front end is worse.

I concede that the problem may be my inexperience at the wheel but I give it a good workout over very rough terrain & can't notice the difference.

Any advice? If it stays the same I'll just either forget about them, sell them or ake them out & put the car valve springs back in I had before.

[F5 Dave]

I've just come across this thread & find it very interesting. I have purchased & installed a set of intimators for my 08 KLR650. Those more experienced riders I've ridden with that have intimators rate them highly however I can't seem to get mine going.

I have posted a lil experiment on KLR650net. Please read with a belly full of happiness. http://www.klr650.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72228

I have used castrol5w ISO15 in the forks however I think if anything the front end is worse.

I concede that the problem may be my inexperience at the wheel but I give it a good workout over very rough terrain & can't notice the difference.

Any advice? If it stays the same I'll just either forget about them, sell them or ake them out & put the car valve springs back in I had before.


There's the problem! You shouldn't be 'at the wheel'. Try fitting handle bars.

erm Valve springs? You mean you were running Valve springs as "Spring Boosters?" if so all this did is over preload the forks while softening the spring rate. Yes softening. Sorry haven't read the thread you posted, when I have time maybe.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

That chart is already out of date with at least respect to Ohlins oil and it shouldnt be taken as gospel. There has been a lot of reformualtion and further improvement of this oil range and it is ongoing.
Certainly sae ratings for suspension oil is a load of bollocks.
I updated the Ohlins info.

I made that several years ago but haven't been doing to much lately so I haven't stayed on top of it. The majority of the info there is manufacturer's specs so if anyone knows of any other specs that are out of date let me know and I will fix them.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

It wouldn't attach for some reason.

Here it is.

[davebullet]

I've finally got everything I need to put mine on the SV650. Just need some time. I'm interested to see how much of a difference $321 makes. If nothing, I'll be sure to report it here to save others the same issues. Without a suspension dyno, I have nothing in the way of objectively measuring the difference.

[Blackflagged]

yep, the last thing we need in NZ is people willing to try something different.
Next thing you know people will be thinking for themselves without prior approval.

My new favorite saying ! ha ha:eek:
.................................................. .................................................. ..

And also... what did we do before shock dyno`s ? Back in pre time.

[Blackflagged]

This is quite a good link,for explaining simply the basic`s of how a damper rod fork works.
http://www.fjmods.btinternet.co.uk/emulators.htm

[Robert Taylor]

My new favorite saying ! ha ha:eek:
.................................................. .................................................. ..

And also... what did we do before shock dyno`s ? Back in pre time.

What did we also do before engine dynos? But you miss the point, such technology makes it a whole lot quicker and objective.

[Ivan]

Ok guys Emulators should be left to Robert T and Dennis these 2 guys are fricken awsome, CKT did my SV650 front race forks best money I could spend on them!

The difference it made was huge these guys really know there onions and Rob is a genuine good guy who is trying to make it a safer place and most people try and insult his intelligence,


I will not go any were else bar Rob my Forks out my ZX6RR are sitting in his workshop now getting the magic touch

[pritch]

most people try and insult his intelligence



Bit tough there Ivan? Most of us appreciate just how lucky we are to have Doctor Robert on our door step. Particularly those of us in the Naki and those who race.

There are some who don't get it, but you generally get what you pay for. Sad but true, R&D is expensive.

Most of the posts I've seen that quibble about Ohlins products or prices originate from people that appear to be relatively new to KB and perhaps motorcycling, or who seem to be in the habit of window shopping without checking the price tags.

There's a misconception that Ohlins are only about extracting the last 10% of performance. That may, or may not be true for racers, but it isn't true for me. I don't think it would be true for a guy who chose to get Ohlins shocks fitted to his Rocket Three either...

[Ivan]

Not Tough at all, People who respect his ways then shouldnt feel offended by my post im not judging anyone in this thread but people read alot of threads and theres alot of people who use stupid tags and are to gutless to name themselves like to call him all the names under the sun, I respect the man for his efforts how many places in the world do you get something like this out of somoene without costing you Rob gives out alot of advice free of charge.

Once again I say it if you have nothing to feel bad about then dont get offended by my post

[Robert Taylor]

We wanted to get the Ninja 250 buzz going so we sent a set of Ricor inertia valve inserts to a California rider who had just posted about the Emulators she installed and liked.

This email was sent to us after her day at the track:

Wow. I had a great day. The bike handled beautifully. The front end was much smoother and helped the rear shock work better. She didn’t dive at all. My bike was smoother in setting up so I could enter the corners much faster. The rebound was smooth as well. They are really great. Even with the RT emulators and 10 weight oil she still dove on braking. I prefer them to the Race Tech emulators 10 to 1, and compared with the stock shocks they are 100% better. I’m going to take her out on some twisties up Hwy 33 this week so I’ll let you know how she handles on the street.

Let me know if you want me to do a more complete write-up. I’ll be happy to post to my Ninja and other bike sites. So…when are you going to have a shock ready for the little ninjas??

Thanks again to you and Brian(?),

Elizabeth Rodeno

I really would like to see a much wider sampling over many more models to be convinced. Especially with models that have tiny holes in the damper rods and the worst tolerancing and alignment issues of those rods.
Many casual observers think Emulator or Intiminator installation is a straight drop in, indeed you can but often the success of the job falls well short of what is possible. Intiminators in theory address one of the issues of damper rod forks, positive sealing at the top end of the damper rod, providing the surface they are sitting on is flat and totally perpendicular to the fork axis ( damper rod top hat ) which all too often they are not. They also will give much better ride height control as the low speed bleed passage is suitably sized. That will mean the fork will ride higher in its stroke and not blow through too readily. So not precompressing the springs too much and therefore allow a modicum of plushness. In truth a well installed Emulator setup with the bleed hole size fine tuned for the application will have exactly the same result. But when something abrupt is ridden over very generous flow area is exposed to absorb the worst of it. Allied with processing of the standard damper rod holes to remove any flow restrictions at that point also. Oil viscosity has less and less effect the bigger the orifice.
Please correct me if Im wrong but I have concern that the max flow rate of an Intiminator may be more restrictive than is ideal for very bumpy roads. Here in NZ we are rather more attentive to that issue as we have a much much higher frequency of bumpy roads that challenge the ultimate absorption of any damping devices.
I have always favoured the idea of a modulating shim stack to control flow but the very tight installation is its utimate limitation of what is possible in peak flow. I applaud you for giving it a go but there is so much more that can be addressed....

[RicorSHX]

Please correct me if Im wrong but I have concern that the max flow rate of an Intiminator may be more restrictive than is ideal for very bumpy roads. Here in NZ we are rather more attentive to that issue as we have a much much higher frequency of bumpy roads that challenge the ultimate absorption of any damping devices.
I have always favoured the idea of a modulating shim stack to control flow but the very tight installation is its utimate limitation of what is possible in peak flow. I applaud you for giving it a go but there is so much more that can be addressed....

You've raised the question of whether or not the Intiminator has enough flow for very bumpy roads. The answer is absolutely yes. At the highest velocities, all the ports in the valve are being used. Some oil is able to exit through the open inertia valve, the rest is being metered by the shims.

The compression stroke fluid displacement is directly related to the fork tube wall surface area, not the diameter of fork valve insert. The damper rod valve is subjected to fork tube wall oil displacement only. There is a huge difference. On a SV650, the fork tube wall is equivalent to a .750" piston diameter. The total flow orifice surface area in the the Intiminator is equivalent to a .458" hole (inertia valve + shim holes). The Emulator max flow surface area is equivalent to .524 hole. Race Tech recommends 10-20 wt oil. We recommend 5 wt.

By addressing chassis control on the compression stroke, the rebound response can/should be softened to reduce tire force variation resulting in a significant improvement in traction. The super progressive rebound response due to the orifice type metering is detrimental to traction and needs to be reduced by using thinner oil.

In our opinion, the Emulator bleed is many times too large given the effective piston size of .75" for adequate brake dive resistance. How much does it cost to get the right size bleed in there? With the effective piston size of .750 and an Intiminator max flow surface area of one .49" orifice, it's much larger than needed for any extreme rough road.

The production class SV650 we support was tested and 2.74 seconds faster with the Intiminators after removing the Emulators. That was due the much later braking (increased transition resistance) and increased traction in the turns (lower tire force variation). The team has placed 1st every time since.

That being said, the inertia valve acts like a 'brain' inside the fork tube. It provides firmer chassis motion response than a conventional shock can be tuned for and still get the comfort/traction response with the higher wheel inputs.

Ricor inertia valve history: The hydraulically manipulated inertia valve was developed to equip the Citroen Dakar Rally cars. Prior to being Ricor equipped, the fastest speed on the African test loop was 138 kph, with Ricor shocks 185 kph. Prior to being Ricor equipped, they were slower than the Mitsubishi's. After, they won every rally they entered. Mitsubishi later used the Ricor system and won again. The Ricor inertia valve system has many times more Dakar 1st place finishes than Ohlins. The Ricor system was licensed to Donerre for European race applications.

[JD Racing]

I wonder if Paul Thede's patent lawyers have seen these http://www.debrix.com/41mm-Fork-Damper-Valve-2000-up-Harley-FXST-Softail-p/24-0361-vt.htm

At that price they must be made by 6 year olds in China.

[Robert Taylor]

Thanks for the reply that at this stage Ive only quickly skimmed over. Just quickly the bleed hole mod ( yes the bleed holes are too big for racing ) is a quick easy and highly effective mod.
I can still see that the biggest weakness with your valves will be the same that occurs with Race Tech, self installation devoid of care and attention, and ignorance of the issues with lack of assembly truth etc of the stock oem damper rods. To re-engineer such forks in this area can pay great dividends, as you well know. I have seen many self instals of emulators that frankly have been terrible.

[Robert Taylor]

I wonder if Paul Thede's patent lawyers have seen these http://www.debrix.com/41mm-Fork-Damper-Valve-2000-up-Harley-FXST-Softail-p/24-0361-vt.htm

At that price they must be made by 6 year olds in China.

Maybe its a typo or being delibrately misleading?

[sil3nt]

I am now thinking about getting some intimators http://store.ricorshocks.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=039-20-1001Nin

Someone talk me out of wasting my money on a bike i barely ride!!

[NordieBoy]

Someone talk me out of wasting my money on a bike i barely ride!!

You get cool stickers too...